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Stepping into the role of business owner is one of the most challenging endeavors you'll undertake. Buying that business from someone you already know amplifies the risk of mistakes. On The Art of Succession Podcast, you'll hear from entrepreneurs who've successfully transitioned from employee to owner by acquiring businesses from parents, former bosses, or co-founders.
Together, we'll explore how they navigated the complex blend of emotions and strategic decisions required to honor the past while forging a new and vibrant future. Your host, Barrett Young, a fellow traveler in the succession story of a 75+ year CPA firm himself, invites his guests to reflect on the mindset shifts, challenges, and triumphs that have empowered them to build on their established foundations.
Whether you're just starting out or already envisioning your own succession plan, you will find insights and actionable advice to guide your journey.
Welcome to the Art of Succession podcast
with Barrett Young. Join us as we
explore the strategies, stories, and
insights that shape the journey of
leadership transitions and business
success. No matter where you find
yourself along the journey, this is the
podcast where you'll find the tools to
make it happen.
Any organization is a house of cards. It
only takes one incident, one unexpected
moment. Even if everybody has all the
integrity in the world and they've acted
in great uh strategic ways, just one
incident can really reverse everything
that's been accumulated. We need to make
sure that the criteria for success
represents their points of view. So,
this is about becoming more of a trusted
advisor and their warm unsolicited
referral.
My name is Barrett Young and this is the
Art of Succession podcast. My guest
today is Mark Vincent, an executive
adviser and co-founder of Teal Vincent
Enterprises. In 2000, Mark founded
Design Group International, an early
leader in process consulting, and
eventually brought on a replacement CEO
and stepped away from that company in
2023 to start his next phase. Mark,
welcome to the Art of Succession.
Well, thank you for the invitation, and
I've been looking forward to this,
Barrett.
Yeah. So, um, let's lead off with that
question. What is it that interests you
most about being on the Art of
Succession? What do you want our
listeners to take away from this
episode?
I was impressed when I got uh a chance
to listen to a couple of episodes how
you draw your guests and have a
substantive and thoughtful conversation
rather than just a a promotion or
somebody who wants to speak or be a
coach. Um, so getting at issues and
talking about things that helps an
audience
have takeaways and be able to apply
something right away or reorient their
thinking a bit and get into a good
substantive conversation themselves
appeals to me. That's that's who I want
to be talking with and that's the
results I want from being a podcast
guest.
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate
that. Um, so let's get into just the
your history leading up to the founding
of Design Group International. Uh, and
you know, just give me a brief brief
background.
Yeah, the the briefest way to say the
background is that I got started in some
graduate school work when I was a
community worker in a city and I was
trying to figure out ways to lead group
meetings and facilitate group meetings.
that wasn't a part of my training and I
found myself moderating or facilitating
or chairing a number of program related
committees and I was frustrated that the
real meetings took place in the parking
lot afterwards and not in the actual
meeting itself which derailed the work
that people did to come to the meeting.
So the the creatives, the uh persons who
are committed to the program and to the
mission, they're bringing their stuff,
they're prepping for the meeting,
they're prepared to deliver, and then it
just got undermined later or reworked
later. And I needed ways for the
informal interactions in our
organization to inform the formal
interactions rather than unwind them. We
needed to get the the sequence reversed
and I didn't know how to do that. And so
there was some possibility to do some
original research around group process
and group decision-making. And this is
the time that Harvard negotiation
project is doing some social science in
this regard. There really hadn't been
much done before that. The most famous
of those books many people will
recognize the title Getting to Yes by
Fiser and Yuri. So there you get this
language of win-win scenarios and
listening first and really making sure
that you can encapsulate what another
speaker is saying before you offer your
opinion so that you're building on each
other's work instead of competing for
space teaming brainstorming
mind mapping that all comes out of this
era and I'm doing this original graduate
work at the time so maybe I was the
right person but I was certainly in the
right place and right time and began to
be asked ask will you help us? So I get
involved in these scenarios where people
would lead off with we're painted in a
corner here. We don't know what to do
next and these methods work. And in that
I began to find out that wow wherever
there is complex decision-m and
particularly if there is money involved
there's nothing like succession planning
to bring out dysfunction. And so in the
uh book of business I'm carrying and now
I'm starting to become a consultant
without any real plan to be one. Uh but
in the book of business I started to
carry a good half of them were tied to
succession. Uh naming and discovering a
successor, planning the process, mapping
out how to get from here to there. And
over time that really became the
centerpiece of my practice. And I had to
decide uh is this just me or is there a
platform we need to create where um I
can build a business actually get some
equity out of it at the end and um found
that I really had an aptitude for that.
So we launched design group
international in 2020.
Uh grew that up uh served as the CEO for
17 years. 2018 I popped up to be the um
the chair of the partnership and then as
you said in 2023 sold my stake and and
exited. But it was that background of
sitting with people who have to sort
through stuff uh where it really matters
and there's a lot in play that I I just
found I got better at it and got more
invitations. And if I could just say one
last thing to that Merritt, you probably
know this as well as anyone. any
organization is a house of cards. It
only takes one incident, one unexpected
moment. Even if everybody has all of the
integrity in the world and they've acted
in great uh strategic ways, just one
incident can really reverse everything
that's been accumulated. So the art here
is not just the science part. It is the
ability to move in in between, do
multiple scenario planning, be able to
be very thoughtful and reflective while
you keep growing.
Yeah, talk to me. Uh, process consulting
I feel is a misnomer maybe or like it it
leads me in a different direction. Um,
it sounds kind of like six sigma or
manufacturing or just repeat the same
process over and over and over again,
but you're talking I mean you you that
was really powerful where you said the
formal is being wrecked by the informal
and you want the informal to inform the
formal. That was that was really
powerful how you phrased that there.
Talk to me just a little bit about where
process
consulting fits in like the various kind
of systems uh methods that you could
take and h how it came to be.
Um
process consulting does have a start in
manufacturing because there are
processes and so you want to fix them if
they're not working.
However, uh a process, even if it is
manufacturing, even if it's very
machined, still has humans involved. And
so, a process has both hard and soft
aspects to it. It has the stuff that's
supposed to run like a machine. And it
has the people who will notice things
and have ideas and have dreams and and
uh aspirations and have to somehow find
a way to work together and who are the
ones that are going to solve the problem
should something erupt in that process
that has to be fixed. And they're going
to bring their ideas, they're going to
bring their passions to it if they care.
I I've long said, you know, if if uh uh
people don't care, you're not going to
have conflicts because everybody's
apathetic. But if they care, they're
going to have expectations and desires.
And you've got to find a way to work
through them where what people care
about can land and create a scope and a
sequence and you can have a wellexamined
solution or set of solutions that you're
going to try to go after your broken
process. So you need to have the people
aspect included as well as the machined
or structured u aspects as well. and the
bringing of those together has roots in
um we were chatting a little bit about
Peter Block's writings. Uh his his work
is very seinal to this. I would also
call it Edgar Shine is probably probably
the godfather of process consulting. He
started out as an engineer fixing
manufacturing processes and began to
notice that if he asked questions rather
than gave the advice or the
prescription, he asked people what they
had tried, what they were willing to
try, what they had noticed, what they
would commit themselves to that he got
better results. And then he began
applying this in places like healthcare
and other kinds of human service
entities and found out it works there as
well. So he begin begins to write all of
his case studies down and makes them
available when he was teaching at MIT
and elsewhere in his any number of
books. So they're just chock full of
case studies and ways to see how process
can unfold and be addressed and get
everyone who's in it to own their next
actions. So any contribution that I made
where I think we began to to take it a
little bit further was to say what if
this is a profession. What if this is
the modality a person chooses not a tool
in their toolbox but is actually their
identity that they bring. I'm here to
examine alongside you. I'm here to ask
the questions. Any experience I bring is
just the ability to frame questions
because I've helped to do this a number
of times. And Barrett, this stuff is so
much more effective when there are are
adaptive moves to make. When we have
technical solutions that we have to
find, yeah, we can say known problem,
known solution. But when we don't even
have a robust definition of the problem,
we just know there is one. We have to
eliminate wrong answers to discover
right ones and process
uh consultation helps us create that
kind of a line of sight so we can
experiment, adjust, and and move
forward.
Yeah, this really resonates with me.
Peter Block's writing has um design
thinking kind of feels like it's in the
same framework here.
Very much so.
Um I'm a visionary and so when you start
talking to me about processes,
what I hear my my first wall goes up is
you're removing the person from this and
you're saying you're treating us all
like machines and if you just follow the
checklist everything will be solved. But
we, it sounds like you're saying process
design is acknowledging that it's people
going through these checklists and those
people are professionals. They know what
they're doing and they know the best way
to branch out when the process is
broken. How do you how do you
how do you
stick to the checklist or stick to the
process when every time you you hit one
of these branches a decision needs to be
made? you can't you can't foresee every
single decision and prescribe it from
the top. So I I guess talk to me just
about that interplay of the real people
and the processes.
You're you're on one of my favorite
subjects or what favorite aspect of it
now. So uh if I'm going to facilitate
this kind of uh a process design, you
know, figuring it out, I want to be able
to face the room. I don't want to have
my head in my notes. I don't want to be
looking down at data and all that. The
data is in the room with me. They they
have data. there. So, what I what I
bring is a framework that's very simple.
Goes right back to your high school um
composition class when you had to write
a narrative like you were a news
reporter. We would say who, what, when,
where, why, and how. One slight change.
I would say why, who, what, when, where,
and how. Why does this matter? Because
if it doesn't matter, why are we
spending any time? Why are we wasting
time and money? But why does this
matter? there's something, an
opportunity to seize, a problem to
solve, some mixture, something that's
got us off of mission. Let's describe
what that is. And are we all in
agreement that this is why? Because if
we're not, then we probably have two
issues to address and let's identify
them and then which one comes first in
the sequence. But why? Why do we even
care? All right. So, if we care and
we're going to do something about it,
who's going to play what role? Who's the
decision maker? Oh, the decision maker
is not in the room. Well, we're already
stuck then. Oh, there is a decision
maker. Who's the financial decision
maker? Are they in the room? Are they
are they in the conversation? Who's
going to play uh who's going to follow
through on the work? Who's the
supervisor? Who has to manage
communication? Who's the funer? Um who
needs to be checked with, consulted?
Because if they they, you know, raise an
eyebrow, everybody's going to get upset
and the whole thing is going to stall.
So that's that informal leadership.
Again, we need to make sure that the
criteria for success represents their
points of view. So why does it matter?
Who's playing what role? What is that
criteria of success? And have we heard
from everyone involved? Do we know what
will keep them at the table and
committed? Without that, things fall
apart and we'll have to do forensic
work. And in order to solve something
that got stuck, it's going to be an
answer to one of those questions. Do we
have the same reason and motivation? Did
people know their roles? And did they
see what they brought to it reflected up
there in some way so that they could
say, "That's why I'm involved. I'm
engaged. you've got my commitment. From
there, you can get more granular and get
to where, which often is not geography.
It's often a domain, the where and when.
Oh, maybe there's not a deadline. Well,
let's set one. Let's establish a goal.
We can always adjust it. And then how
the steps from here to there, it's often
reverse engineered from the intended
deadline. But when you have robust
answers to why, who, what, when, where,
how, you have an artifact that you can
use as a reference. You can keep it
updated. You can follow it. And I
started this by saying, I want to keep
my head up. Well, I can remember why,
who, what, when, where, how. I can hear
where the comments come from. So if some
if we're asking where, but somebody
starts talking about how because of how
their brain works, we can capture their
idea. We just put it in the right spot
and we're projecting it on the screen or
on their computers while we're working.
They're seeing it emerge in front of
them. We kind of take the guru out of it
who disappears into a back room and
scripts it for everybody and says here's
what you said and they don't see it till
3 weeks after the meeting. We want we
want it to be live where you can see
your work emerging and why, who, what,
when, where, how helps you iterate it,
create a comprehensive list and you can
see where you are in relationship to
where you want to go as you answer those
questions. difficulty in it is that
whoever's facilitating it has to keep
the mental discipline to bring people
back with gentleness to bring them back
to the conversation at hand because our
brains don't work sequentially.
You don't have to
we can't you can't embarrass people and
yell at them and say, you know, you you
doofus. Uh we're talking about this and
you're talking about that. They're
trying to get there. Some people start
wide and get narrow. some get narrow and
go wide and they have to be respected.
Um, and so the the facilitative role
often needs to be a third party because
the if if you were like the visionary
and you care about the outcome, your
voice is needed instead of it being
withheld. But if you're bringing your
voice, it's hard for you to read the
room and manage traffic. And if you're
trying to do both, people aren't sure
what hat you're wearing at any given
time. And they'll they'll they'll stop
bringing because they know in the end
you're going to decide. Even if you say
we decide, oh, you're going to decide,
you know, so I it's it's not worth it.
And then they it just starts to
deteriorate.
Yeah, that's definitely very hard when
you have that level of leadership in the
room, too. Like you said, everybody's
looking over at this person over there
saying, "What's the real answer?" Even
though they said, "Don't ask me. I'm out
of it. They're going to be the deciding
factor. It's so easy when you fall into
a visionary and an integrator role
within a company
for everybody to look over and say,
okay, what's the visionary think? And
then for me to look over and say, how's
the integrator going to do this without
saying I'm a visionary, but I have input
on the integration also and should be
part of that conversation sometimes. Um,
so that yeah, this is awesome stuff. So
you start this consultancy in 2000.
It's relatively newish like within the
past 20 years um just from Peter Block's
writings and and you know um Shane Shown
what
shine
shine um
so how do you go out and start selling
this when you're relatively
inexperienced in it when it's
explorative when it's not been clearly
defined um and then not only sell it
yourself as a consultant but then build
a brand of consultants within design uh
international.
Well, there are a couple of things and I
don't want to I don't want to get too,
you know, down in the weeds because you
end up with some small strategic
decisions that become bigger results
over time that kind of change a
trajectory,
but um I I would say that first of all,
I already had a reputation when we
started the company. I'd already been
doing it for about 15 years and had run
some very large projects that made me
pretty visible to a marketplace that I
wanted to serve
inside a corporation or working for
another in another consulting group or
um
how'd you gain your experience in this?
Yeah. Well, I had a number of these hey
will you come help us where I I wasn't I
hadn't didn't even have a shingle out
but we heard you help them. Will you
help us? So that's why I would say right
place right time. However, that led to
running an international project with
five supporting bodies. Um, and it was a
very um visible
uh long-term project that let me test
these methods on the largest possible
scale and they worked there as well. And
it a lot of the this educational project
had to do with what people believe about
money and what they how they use it. And
so I'm learning a lot about the uh
economy of an organization and ecosystem
of an organization. Well, and during
that time we helped about 400
organizations. It was a it was a
timelimited educational project. Uh and
then it ended well then as it ended it
was where do we take this body of
knowledge and there was a financial
services company that functioned as a
nonprofit which uh has a whole
educational arm. They said, "Can you
bring that here?" And they really wanted
the content around money uh that was
delivered out of this, but I had this
method and the the method didn't really
have a home there. And they were very
clear. We're nonprofit. We can't have a
for-profit line of business housed here.
And so, um, I was able to wrap that up
in a very good way. And we launched
Design Group International at that
point. Having kind of discerned that
this is a thing. This is something I can
do. This is a unique contribution.
There's a market for it. I have people
asking if I'm going to be available.
It's either that or find a job and I
won't be able to do this thing that I
love. And so in 2000, we launched it.
And there was already some momentum.
That meant we had to get brand
recognition. And that took longer. you
when you do this stuff the first year or
two there's low hanging fruit. There's
people who know you, love you, trust
you, but they're not buying you or this
kind of a process every year all the
time. If you're doing this well, you're
not upselling. You're not offering five
products or series one, series two, come
buy this extra thing and we'll, you
know, bonus you if you buy the extra
one. You're not doing that. You're there
at the client's behest to do their work
alongside them. So this is about
becoming more of a trusted advisor and
their warm unsolicited referral.
They tell somebody without even being
prompted, you need to work with them.
And so we just started working hard at
the uh quality of our relationships in
our networks, finding other people who
had really strong talent and strong
networks and inviting them to join the
platform we had created. and we provided
all the administrative stuff behind the
scenes. So really our true and first
client base were other really
experienced consultants who didn't have
an adequate administrative platform.
Yeah. Yeah. I was going to I was going
to branch into that just because it's
easy to be a consultant and run your own
thing, but to build a brand around your
method of consulting is hard. to train
somebody else to gain 15 years of
experience that you brought into this on
day one. So, how what was that
recruiting process? How do you find
amazing talent and then say, well, to
come under our wing, you need to shift
this and this and this in order to fit
with what we're doing. How talk to me
just a little bit about going beyond the
first consultant into the second, third,
fifth, 10th.
So, we started with uh because we're
trying to build with openness to people
who wanted to launch a consulting career
and people who had figured it out and
developed it but had to make a choice of
am I going to run my own platform or do
I really want to work with clients
because you get to a certain size you
can't do both. um you you'll either be
deliluded in how you can care for a
client because you have all this
administrative work because you're
succeeding or you are handling the
administrative part of the platform and
helping people with their own business
development and but they they then have
to get a value for what they're leaving
on the table for their billings. And so
dialing that in, I would just say we
took about eight years of
experimentation even while doing our
work to remain profitable and ultimately
dialed in that it wasn't as um
successful if we worked with someone who
was starting out because they uh unless
you have a sales force and we didn't. We
were all player coaches. We were people
who were in the you know in the field
doing our work with clients and love
doing that and want the impact like
that. So, if you don't have a sales
force like you would with McKenzie or
Boston Consulting Group, then uh you
have to have people who are very
comfortable with their own business
development. Uh and so often times a
person who's starting out hasn't figured
that out. And it's kind of a tell if the
first thing they say is, "I hate sales."
Okay. Well, then that means they'll feel
like they're poking their eyes out with
needles. anytime they've got to write
even a social media message that might
promote something that they've done or
point to the success of a client, they
just just want to run away from that.
They got to chain them to the desk. So,
uh we we just started moving more and
more toward the experienced consultant
who really wanted to have high client
impact uh and got tired of trying to
build their own platform and the cycling
that that does because soon as you pay
attention to the platform, tough to do
your business development. So you're
paying attention to an actual client
you've landed at these administrative
things uh behind the scenes. Then one
more thing to say uh we didn't abandon
the person who wants to be a consultant.
We launched the society for process
consulting as a means to help people
train develop a very clear actionable
business plan with sensible finances on
it create their arc of development to
determine if this is what they wanted or
not. So, as we we were just getting a
lot of knocks on the door. Hey, I'm
between jobs. I think I want to do this.
Hey, uh I tried it once, it didn't work.
Can I try it again? Or I'm getting
started, but I I don't know what what to
do. I'm starting to succeed, but I can
sense I'm up against some things. I'd
like to have a professional credential
that says I really am recognized as a
process consultant. So, we created the
society, created a training regimen for
three levels of a professional
credential and got that started. so that
we didn't have endless tire kicking.
Like, can I have another coffee with you
and have you tell me about what you do
and how you do it so I can tell you that
it won't work even though it's working
for you? We just, you know, that that
that's all opportunity loss. So, we just
began to redirect to say, if you're
serious about this, here's a way to
learn and discover and and work with
some people who are really excellent at
this and determine whether this is for
you.
Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. Um, so the first
half of your tenure there is developing
it, finding the platform, bringing in
people who already have the connections,
already have the referrals, they just
don't have the system to to, you know,
say this is the way we deliver things.
What about the second half of it got you
to start thinking that you would
eventually exit um this and and go start
similar a similar business? But what
what was it about it that started to
wear on you or you just wanted to to
find somebody else to bring in that CEO?
It's a great question. I I really think
that's an important question to ask.
Um
the work of a visionary and you've
self-described as one, there's a uh
thing that you want to accomplish. So
when we launched Design Group
International in 2000, the vision was
this is a platform that can exist. And
about half our clientele were
nonprofits.
And in order to serve nonprofits at that
rate, um we weren't set up to only serve
nonprofits, but to do it at that rate,
uh the traditional model had been well
then we have to be a nonprofit also,
which means we have to charge less than
it actually costs, which means we have
to raise money also. Well, where do you
raise the money? You raise it in a
cannibalistic way from your clients who
want to who want to pay for that
service. So you you um uh end up harming
it and many of them had uh gone out of
business over time because of the effort
that it takes not only to la land land
the business and then carry it out but
to also raise money for it. Uh it it
just it's untenable. So we said no,
we're going to charge what it costs to
provide the service and see it through
completely. And that means there's some
clients that won't hire us because we'll
be more expensive, but we're also going
to be more effective because we don't
have this third leg that we've got to
fill by raising money and diluting our
relationships with our actual clients.
So, in in uh making that decision, we
could grow and work with whoever was
willing to pay the the rates. And we
also made sure we were very lean and
didn't have bricks and mortar and didn't
have a lot of infrastructural costs so
that we actually could compete on price.
So we kind of locked in that business
model. And the idea was we're going to
prove that this can be done to the point
uh someone can have a whole career and
retire with some equity.
Well, around 2012, we could see the path
uh where I would be able to sell, not
retire in my case, but to sell and get
my equity out and demonstrate that it
could be done. And when I did it in
2023, we were bringing on the sixth
generation of our consultancy. And we
count generations by who brought
somebody into the business and helped
them get started. So, someone that I
brought in the business helped somebody
who helped somebody who helped somebody
who helped somebody. And now the
partnership is all made up of people who
were not the original partnership in in
the organization. That was the vision to
demonstrate it could be done so that
somebody who wanted to enter a
consulting career particularly as a
process consultant could say that's a
career path not an in between jobs
assignment and uh we achieved it. And I
look ahead beyond that like okay what's
the vision for this after that? Well
it's probably not mine. I I I don't have
another great big idea for it other than
to do more of what we've done. And we
got these people who need their turn uh
to be able to to develop vision. We
don't don't want to hold anybody back.
Um we hadn't built this around me as the
only personality. So uh it wasn't a
great big problem. I mean I was very
influential. I was the biggest
shareholder and all of that, but it
wasn't centered on my personality or my
presence. in the way it often is when
you've got a central person uh in in an
organization. So, we'd solved that early
and I just began that process of exiting
so that a new CEO could come in, help go
through that process of creating vision
that would draw everybody in and not
just be what do I want to do now? Um,
and that led to that trajectory. And
then Barrett, there's one other thing I
I can't ignore. Uh, my wife passed away
in 2015 and she'd been a part of the
business the whole time. she was our
CFO. We had done some really good
continuity planning and succession
planning and truthfully uh we didn't
have too big of a hit uh in her loss. We
were able to keep the business going
which meant one less dimension of life
to grieve. Um but it was something we
had launched together and done together
and um I had to figure some things out
for me in ways that were healthy, not
unhealthy and things that didn't harm
the business. And so my windown began
then um uh and it just became important
to give other people their time.
So you your next phase what you started
after uh design group international is a
consulting
brand that does the same thing just not
at that scale. Correct. Am I am I
correct in that? I decided to go into a
private practice and u to be available
to
uh longtime very successful executives,
their boards, maybe their successors
while they're going through a very
planful succession or I would say a very
planful business continuity and
succession planning. I'm a very firm
believer that succession planning is a
part of continuity and they shouldn't be
separated and they often are in
business. you know, the stuff around the
building and the grounds and equipment
that's over here and the stuff about our
talents over there and they again, the
hard and the soft stuff blend in the end
and it's really good to hold those
together. I I wanted to be available to
that to be a trusted adviser to walk
alongside and to not have operational
matters here in the background so that
in a conversation even like what we're
having I can just focus on the person in
their scenario be alongside them and if
we need to get a technical specialist
for accounting or estate law or business
valuation and they don't have that sure
I'm connected we can help get that
together but the main thing is to stay
on focus with that owner or that
longtime executive
and help them get their plan together
that they can achieve while they're
still trying to run the business. So, we
um my wife actually I'm married again,
she uh is a a coach um and a a policy
analyst in her background. So, she does
some projects herself. She put together
a small platform. It's very different
than Design Group International. Uh, and
I really out there just as Mark El
Vincent, uh, as an executive adviser and
behind the scenes, Chill Vincent
Enterprises kind of powers my billing
and my, you know, uh, collection if
there's needed and and helps me, um,
organize things uh, again, so that I can
just stay with the client. And I I just
feel wonderful now that I'm at this spot
where I'm not I am not connected into uh
planning meetings and administrative
things tied to a group of services. Um I
can really focus on the client and what
they're what they're living with. It's
it's their moment. It's not mine
anymore.
Yeah. So in my my perception of your
career is kind of like you're returning
back to your roots the first 15 years of
doing this before building this massive
platform and everything. So it's kind of
like you've gone up here and built this
model that scales and has its own
consultants and now you're back down
into the the weeds with specific
clients. Is that correct there?
That's very correct. Uh I would add one
dimension that is in this kind of work
what happens and it seems to be cycling
a little bit faster is that you very
quickly expose new ways that this can be
done that are valuable um a a better a
better effectiveness a lower cost um uh
an audience that isn't being touched so
I've done a lot of work for instance in
peer-based advising and during co was
discovering that people who are moving
into succession don't have peer-based
advisories for succession planning the
uh the Vistages of the world and the
YPOS were which do such great work were
moving further down into emerging
leaders but they weren't moving up to
the person who's on an exit path and
they begin to actually leave their
groups because they don't have peers
around the table anymore because most of
those conversations are about uh
operations maybe a little bit about
strategy but not about exit and who
around the table is exiting from my
company with my team in my marketplace
with my product mix, you know, that
they're alone. And so, how do we gather
them? And we launched Meister level
leaders 5 years ago. And we put one
group through this four-year cohort
experience. We have another group that's
about to finish. We've recruited four
other groups. We're recruiting our next
one. I've trained a couple of other
facilitators. So, I don't run them all
myself. And just in this last month,
we're now identifying the person who's
going to take it from here. So in my
current practice, returning to those
roots, one route that didn't go away
was, oh, here's an idea. Let's start
something. But what I'm doing is cycling
out of that quickly so that I don't end
up at the center of it like I for 15
years or in my case 18 years before I
can start moving toward exiting.
Yeah. Gotcha. Talk to me just a little
bit about or I guess talk to our
listeners who are business owners who
are tempted to hang on longer. when the
when the company is successful and
they're like, "Why would I get out now?
I could ride this all the way to the
grave. I could ride this all the way to
the very end of it and continue to
profit from this."
Versus stepping away and I'm too young
to completely, you know, I just was at
an exit planning conference and they're
like, "Don't say the word retire to a
business owner because they don't want
to hear it."
Um, I'm too young for that. So, I have
to start something else. So talk to me
just talk to the owners about that
decision and you stepped away from
something at its you know when it
everything was going right why would you
do that why not just be the silent
shareholder kind of thing for the rest
of your life.
Yeah.
Especially in consulting and
professional services it's so tempting.
I can do this until I'm you know can't
do it anymore mentally I'm not there
anymore. Uh so
you didn't do that. You stepped away and
started something new. Talk to me about
that.
Right. Yeah. Well, if I had um uh when I
when I actually did sell, it was a
couple years after we thought we we
would. So, the value of my stock went
up. So, the company ended up uh having
to arrange for a bigger buyout than they
would have had to because of the time
that it took. And if I had kept it until
now, here I am still active, still
working. If I kept it now, kept
everything there, it'd be worth even
more. Um so, you know, that that's a
those are tough calls and I want to
respect that. Uh what I I think really
matters is that we have a sense of the
owner, their mind, their dreams. Um and
so I would say that if a owner is
strictly focusing this on what their
takeaway will be for them and their
family, then I would say they're
actually not interested in business
continuity. Uh they're not interested in
succession planning. they're interested
in uh using this as a lifestyle
uh engine for them going forward.
They're not talking about who has it
from here. Uh at that point, then I'm
not the person to work with them. Uh and
I don't have an answer except to say,
well, then what's likely to happen is
that you will write it to your grave and
it will go to the grave with you. Um
your um children likely will not have a
sense of what the values are. They may
actually be fighting about it after
you're gone or even while you're still
alive. And you know, uh, what I what I
want owners to do is have a strategic
choice, not just a delayed one. Uh, so a
strategic choice is what do you want? Do
you want to wind this down? Okay, let's
do it in a way that has integrity. So
people aren't saying, well, they ran a
great business until because that's the
story that they'll tell us that last
chapter about that last year with their
last three months. We want to get rid of
that part of the sentence. And so if you
if you want to see it wind down, then
let's plan for it. If you want to sell
it and get an equity of it, then let's
plan for it and build the value. If you
want to sell it to your employees, let's
plan for it. If you want to turn it over
to a child or a successor you've
mentored or a team of people, let's plan
for it. And that will make for a unique
here we go again process and a design
that will follow and figure it out uh as
we go. And I'll then say it's not going
to succeed even then unless that
predecessor, that owner or longtime CEO
has a life to go to. Um, even if they
don't have some answers for that life to
go to, they have to have something
developing over here that they can step
into or it's not going to be healthy for
them. And if they don't have that, it's
going to be very difficult to let go.
And I I love this analogy and I would
offer this to anybody who's listening.
The embrace that you gave this
enterprise when you started it or were
hired to it and really got it going and
you reworked it, you you brought love,
you brought your best gifts, you've got
it in your embrace. But if you're not
careful, your embrace will become a
chokeold,
plain and simple. And it will you'll
bleed talent, you'll bleed money, you'll
bleed time just because you can't let
go. And the critical decision is, do you
let go because you've got the successor
or do you let go because you've got all
the money you want?
And uh if we let go because we've got
the successor and they're ready. Well,
then if we have a life to go to, we got
hope, we got other plans, we're not just
tied, our identity is not just tied to
the title and the business that's given
us money, then then we can release it so
much more easily and with an optimism
that there's more in our life to live as
opposed to my life is over before it's
over and I'm dead before I'm dead.
How how do you start having that
conversation with business owners who've
dedicated 30 or 40 years of their life
working way more time than a normal job?
They don't have hobbies, their hobbies,
their business, their babies, their
business. How do you start to have that
conversation with a business owner
without them just losing all hope and
deciding it's too hard, I'm just going
to stick with the business?
I really like it. I think the the
pavement is laid down in a very healthy
way. If we get continuity and succession
planning in as a matter of course, you
know, updated every year, uh you don't
have to have the successor named, but
you it's very helpful to say if if I'm
hit by a bus today, who steps in and
covers this until we're able to figure
it out. What you know, what's our
playbook for sudden loss of talent,
sudden loss of equipment, sudden loss of
power? a a um um a global epidemic, you
know, I mean, what what what are our
playbooks for these things and let's
have some of that figured out. So,
either we have an identified successor
or we have someone who knows that they
would step in to run things for 3 months
or 6 months while we figured something
out. Things like key man insurance for
key players that are that for whom the
business really has tight uh a tight
need for that revenue to maintain. if
they're suddenly pulled out and you've
got a 70% loss in income, big problem uh
for that first couple of years. So,
let's start with that.
And then if we're going to start growing
people up, we have to recognize that um
if there's only really one seat at the
top and we prepare five people, all of
whom could fit in that role, that means
we're going to uh either be choking four
people and we're going to lose them as
talent or we're actually going to be
able to send them into the marketplace
of our vendors, our competitors, our
customers, whatever else who carry out
the values and the way that we've
learned to do it together and who we can
always hire back at some point. So we
keep our talent pool in a development
mode and active and think about their
best interest the next part of their
career and start moving into this thing
where nobody is indispensable. But we we
just start making that a part of the
culture and start building that out so
that the owner can see or that longtime
executive can see that and then you can
start to begin that conversation sort of
as a beside. So what does this look like
for you? You know what? Where are you
going? How do we help develop you so
that your whole heart and your whole
soul and your whole mind and your whole
strength are involved in this? As
opposed to it's all strength, strength,
strength, strength day in day out.
You're exhausted and prone on the floor
every Friday and you think you're
succeeding when in fact you're not.
You're you're going to you're going to
end up retiring earlier than you want.
You're going to have medical issues tied
to the long-term stress that you've
borne. Let's let's get you out of that
trap and begin to do that. But I found I
can't get to that other conversation
unless they're building this kind of
thing into the culture. Otherwise, they
pe they expect people to get uh spent
the way they're spending themselves. All
of which leads to burnout.
What starts just that conversation? Is
it just the fact that every business
needs to have that hit by a bus
incident? I mean, I talked to young
business owners, you know, 10 years into
their company. talk about succession
planning, talk about the future, and
they're like, "We we're barely breaking
even at this point. We haven't even
gotten it here." So, is it usually a
triggering event in the life that wakes
them up to have that conversation?
Bradley, that's often the case. Uh, I
would like to think, and you know, the
economists have really concluded that
although they would like to think that
humans are rational beings, we're not.
So, because we're not rational, we often
need a painful incident to wake us up to
something that's very important. But for
those who say, you know what, I want to
learn vicariously. I I I want to uh not
just meet best practices. I want to
exceed them. I I really want to build
something that lasts. If that's really
where they're at, uh they can't just
say, "I want that." They actually have
to be able to act with the long-term in
mind, even when they're making a
shortterm decision.
And so, um, when you meet people that
are postponing the long-term impact,
we'll think about that later, we'll deal
with that later. Now's not the time
when, you know, in a few years, maybe if
we're successful, we can get to that. We
don't have the luxury right now. That
sounds like a perk. All of that is
denial about the impact of not making
long-term decisions with a short-term
impact as well. So you you just don't
divorce long from short just like you
don't want to divorce topline from
bottom line on a financial decision that
you you need to be able to see that as a
whole as a system that you are the
steward of that you're responsible for.
And so you make decisions with
short-term need without losing sight of
where you're going. And if I'm talking
with someone and I I've got a little
gravitas now. I've got a few birthdays.
I've got a white beard. I've lived it. I
can look someone in the eye and I think
with some gentleness say uh you're
actually acting you're not acting like
an executive. You're not acting like the
leader of your company. You're acting
like a manager of this little area of
the business. And if you consistently do
that, you're going to end up with an
organization only as big as your
capacity. And you keep limiting your
capacity. You have a chance here to
learn and to think this through and to
draw it out. We can do that right now if
you like. Let's let's look at that.
Let's look at your options. Let's not
have you so narrow. And you can learn to
do this more quickly than you've been
doing it. You can learn to do it in the
moment as you're going. And that's
really what executive thinking is. It's
using the highest function of your
brain, not living down here in
reactivity and then thinking, well, when
the emergency's over, then I'll figure
stuff out. We got to in the emergency
keep our perspective and figure it out
or we're just going to have another
emergency.
You know, these are these are the rocks.
These are like the the quadrant 4 stuff
that Stephven CVY talks about. It's
important but not urgent. It's, you
know, it's always something I can wait
till tomorrow. I've got all these
emails, all these sales calls I have to
make. This customer over here is blowing
up. This team member is, you know,
self-imploding.
How
how long or like what's the process to
get these owners, somebody working with
you? what's what are the milestones and
say, "Hey, we're not going to be able to
solve this all in a week of working with
me." How do you how do you lay out
something that big? Identify, well, a
will needs to be in place like tomorrow.
You know, the urgent and important
things within that um versus the things
that no, it's going to take us two years
to get this, you know, developing an
executive, developing your replacement.
That's not something you're going to do
in the next 3 years probably. you know,
when you say it's time for me to retire,
you should have been working on this
couple years leading up to this. How do
you how do you break that down for your
for your clients and walk them through
that process when they want results now
cuz I want to retire in 6 months.
Um, let's say you were that person you
asked me, hey, you know, how can you
help me now? Or or what do I get if I
work with you? I'm not I'm not going to
answer that question.
I I'm I'm going to flip it as quickly as
I can right into that why, who, what,
when, where, how. So, somebody said we
should talk. Why was that?
Oh, okay. So, if if you were to actually
go after this in this next three months,
next six months, who would actually be
making these decisions? Is it just you
all by yourself? There's anybody else
involved? And you just start drawing it
out so that anything that I end up
saying, "Here's how we can help you."
I'm literally holding up and flipping
around the piece of paper that I've
written. There's key items down. I don't
take a lot of notes, but just key things
to say, is this what we're talking
about? And it's their words, their
declarations, their time frame. And so,
okay, if we wanted this to go that fast,
it'll probably cost you more because
you'll have to pay some people to get
this done. If you want to take your
time, we could probably slow it down. It
might cost you less. You might have more
choices, you know. So, we we just try to
work from what they're bringing. I often
talk about this as doing judo where uh
they're coming with this kind of
momentum and I'm going to help them land
in a place that's very pleasant for them
and very good for them where we're not
making them stop talking. We're not
making them stop with their momentum but
we're directing it in a way that we can
get at those answers so that I don't
have to be prescriptive and say this is
what you need to do. All of that being
said, there are four things I'm watching
for in business continuity and
succession. One is this does this person
recognize what the job actually is? And
I often end up helping them rework their
job description even if they never show
it to anybody as the owner as executive
director to help this land in a right
place and have a good end chapter.
I have a particular job to do and it's
not just run the company profitably at
this point. So what is that job? How do
we describe it? How do we measure it?
How do we recognize it? Second one is if
they're going to do this well, they have
to and as an accountant, you might
really like this. They need a future
balance sheet. They they got to, you
know, what's the capitalization of this
business five years from now so that
when a successor is stepping in, we've
already opened the doors and kind of
slingshot them into that direction as
opposed to raising all these obstacles.
When they finally see how all of this
works, they're going, "Oh, I didn't
realize and now I've got to spend the
first six months getting us back into
covenant with our banker." for instance.
So we we want that capital um for the
future in place at least a map to it.
Then there is actually the role that
this person has. They they there's a
number of things that they do. And so we
try to create a map with them so that
that they're able to identify well I do
this. Uh here's something I'm not doing
yet but I think it's going to be
important in the future. We try to get
all of that identified and start
figuring out what's the trajectory for
you to hand this off to a person who not
only understands it but actually is
activated and owns that role. It might
be your successor but most every person
that's exiting if they've been
successful it's more than one person
that takes on what they've carried you
you the role expands in some way. So,
how do we know? How will we know that
they've got it, understand it, and have
it and are owning it? Because without
that, they don't things are going to
drop through the cracks. And again, if
something happens to you, we'll have it
documented. We'll know its status. And
so, a board or a successor can pick it
up and take it from there. So, we want
to create that map. And then the last
thing is that leader is operated by a
phil a certain philosophy.
And there often times it's just kind of
from the hip pocket. and it's, you know,
there and it's quick, but it creates
what I would call invisible suitcases
that a successor is going to trip over
if that philosophy is not expressed in
some way. So, we want to draw that out,
get in some kind of graphic or written
expression. often it's a half a page
maybe a couple of pages at most where
the successors as well is even a board
if a board is involved can know um how
things were managed and either embrace
it at least with the right kind of
language that people are used to hearing
embrace it amend it or even consciously
set it aside in favor of a new approach
that is needed uh without that people
run into walls and bump into things
without realizing it until it's after
the fact because especially if it's a
beloved leader because it hasn't it's
just resided in the subconscious and
it's never been logically expressed.
Uh we're running out of time. This has
been an amazing discussion. Um
is every business worthy of succession
or I you know succession is hard.
Succession is real. It's harder work
than the technical work of running a
company. It is what are some of the
guideposts in a conversation that you'll
have with a business owner. Maybe two or
three things that you'll say from this
conversation I can tell you you don't
have it in you. You just need to sell to
private equity consolidator get out.
That's a great question too. That's
where I really want to draw them out
with why does this matter to you? You
know what what's what does even your
definition of success look like? I could
say it, but my definition isn't
necessarily yours. So, let's get yours
out there. Let's have you look at it and
know what it is. And I I'm talking with
one person right now who for a long time
thought, well, success is and succession
is one of my children running the
business. But as as it's gone on and
over time, it's like, oh, maybe that's
not what's needed in the end. Maybe
maybe here I should be more open to an
investment event where somebody can take
this business beyond what I've been able
to do. our family can go on to other
things and my children can continue to
have a career with multiple choices in
front of them. Um and uh so there's a
bit of this um emergent set of
possibilities as you take steps and you
you don't want to have to lock down so
tight that you can't adjust as you as
you go. Uh but your question started
with you know is every business worthy
of success or succession?
you know as well as anyone how hard it
is to succeed or to have success. And so
then to get to succession
uh is even harder and rarer and I would
say almost without exception that
succession is harder than starting the
business. It calls on every aspect of
leadership gifts that a person has
cultivated over time. It's the highest
expression of their art. It's a
demonstration that they really have led
well, not just managed something well.
And um so we don't want to go in there
thinking it should be easy that you can
mail it in at the end because that is a
surefire uh way to make succession not
happen in a way that anybody's pleased
with. So succession is hard work and
joyful work because you're getting to
use everything that you've brought and
you I often say that this is why I call
what we're talking about here maestro
level. You're no longer just the solo
performer on the stage. You're no longer
just conducting the orchestra. You are
the composer of the thing, helping the
the the composer, I mean, helping the um
the conductor, helping all of the
instrument sections pour this beautiful
thing out while you're not even on the
stage anymore.
You know, that's that's what this is.
And so, let's call it that. Let's
recognize the beauty and the intricacy
of it, and then let's get after it
because time's a wasting.
Oh, man. I really love that visual of
the composer. You're no longer the
conductor who's been running this
business and making all this stuff work
for the past 30, 40 years. You're now
stepping into the role of the composer.
And your job is to pass that baton off
to a new conductor and have them succeed
and and show and just reflect the glory
of what you've written. That is that's
be beautiful. Mark, thank you so much
for that picture.
Um, we are out of time. is before we we
jump into the lightning round and wrap
up the episode. Is there anything that I
haven't asked about or anything that
that's really on your heart that you
want to share with the audience before
we go?
I don't have anything more to add today.
I I feel like our conversation has a
number of things going around for you,
you know, so that it might be that um 6
months from now, whatever you say, Mark,
can we just extend our conversation,
continue on? I' I'd really welcome that
because I benefit uh as so do you when
this is something you care about. You
you want value to to go to others for
future generations. You want them to
have meaningful lives and enterprises.
And so thinking about that with people
is a gift. And so if there's at any
point you'd say let's talk some more,
please know I'd be all in.
Yeah, I appreciate that so much. I
definitely will be doing that. So um I
do appreciate your time now. Um but uh
let's get into the lightning round and
and bring this in for a landing. So um
coffee or tea and how do you like it
prepared?
Coffee in the morning, tea in the
afternoon, always with cream, but I can
do black.
Okay. Um pie or cake? And do you have a
specific type?
My favorite pie definitely pie is um
sour cherry pie and with a little bit of
ice cream. So the sweet and sour blend.
M delicious. Um do you have a favorite
holiday and why?
Thanksgiving.
Um it always seem to have way less drama
and more pie.
So less drama than for say like
Christmas or something higher pressure,
right? Yeah. It didn't involve gift
giving. It was just am I bringing the
dish? Will I see grandma?
Food and family.
Yes. Football on, you know,
that kind of thing. Yeah. It just it
shuts down rather than amps up.
Gotcha. All right. Um, are you a morning
person or a night person? And do you
have a favorite routine?
I am a morning person. Uh, my body is
just hardwired that way. Uh, you I'm
often up at 4 without even trying. And
over the years that has become a bit of
a routine. So, I make my coffee in a
very preferred way. I boil it. I've got
the stove top percolator. or I'm
hovering over that to get it just to the
right temperature so it's hot for a long
time instead of slowly cooling off. And
then uh I usually have about two hours
and most days I can do it where I I am
uh in a a rocking chair by a hearth if
it's winter or by an open window in a
breeze if it's cooler and I am working
through material and it's out of that
that I have good questions to ask my
clients and I have some things to say
about succession. So it's the it's just
kind of the engine for any creativity
and my ability to remain relevant. So
there's a lot of reading and some
writing that I do during that time and
then by then the sun's coming up and I'm
ready to face it. Uh but it's also a
reason why I don't do evening meetings
at 7 o'clock. My brain's kind of tired.
All right, that's great. Um what's a
common belief among entrepreneurs that
you would want to challenge them on? Oh,
that's an easy one actually. Um because
it's just so rampant. Uh that that what
got them there will get them to where
they need to go next.
Anything.
They got to where they were because they
learned things, not because they knew
things. They had an assumption and they
figured some stuff out. Well, to get to
where they want to go next, the learning
has to continue not knowing.
You get to a certain stage in business
and you're just like, well, I've solved
all the problems. Now we just need to,
you know, drill into the efficiency on
this.
Yeah. or I just have to get one big
customer who believes in what I've done
and then you know it's easy sailing from
here and I can just sail into the
sunset. Uh yeah, right.
Yeah.
Um what is one thing that you would want
your successor to remember you for?
Oh man, I hope he would say you know
he made it possible for me to succeed
and he got out of my way. Um I don't
think I was always successful at that.
It was always my heart yearning, always
my try. Uh I think I had a big surprise
at the strength of my voice as I stepped
out. No one I I hadn't come across that
dynamic with anybody I talked to. So in
that moment um you know like if I if I
uh said something stronger than I I
wanted to be because I'm not I'm not the
the the main person anymore. If I'm
quiet, well then that echoes. What
what's he thinking? What uh if I'm
absent? Where did he go? So no matter
what you do, um there was that dynamic
and I I didn't have words for that. I
couldn't describe it. Now that I can
describe it, it kind of takes its power
away. Like, yeah, this could happen. So,
how do we do it this time so that it
doesn't feel like I'm forcing or that
I'm not, you know, withdrawing? Um, so
the the uh getting out of the way was
harder than I thought it would be on
that basis, but I would hope that he
would be able to say, "No, he did get
out of the way and he he helped me
succeed. He he made it possible for me
to succeed.
Excellent. Thank you so much. Um, where
are you finding creativity right now?
Well, I have seven grandchildren. That's
going to pull some of that out from time
to time and more playfulness. Um, I am
uh really enjoying
um the margin that I've been able to
create because I'm not running
operational things anymore to um be able
to think about what I'd like to write
and write more artfully, not just for
the purposes of churning something out
because the schedule calls for it. So,
I've been having a lot of fun with the
LinkedIn newsletter we call executive
thinking. And I'm trying to keep it into
like a two-minute read. Uh, I'm loving
these kinds of podcast conversations to
try and put more salt in this good meat,
this good grist, uh, for helping people
think planfully for the long term and
not just do short-term stuff all the
time. Uh, and so the ability to be free
for that, uh, I'm loving it.
Sounds amazing.
Um definitely aspirational for me. Um
what do you have coming up in the next
year that's got you really excited?
Yeah, I have a couple of speaking
engagements um that uh are the kind that
I really like. I I don't I mean I I fine
with the the can speech, you know, would
you come tell us about process
consulting? Give us a primer. I love
doing that. I love even more when it is
here's what our goals are for this
event. Can you help us achieve them? uh
and so that we actually tailor learning
for that moment. So I've got one coming
up in June where we're going to premiere
uh a set of workshops around bringing
emotional intelligence to decision-m
and can't wait to do it and it's going
to be so fun. We got a we've worked it
into some video and some activity
fastpaced three hours of strengthening
that insight for people. Uh and it's for
that group. Yeah, I'll be able to do
that other places later if somebody
wants it. But designing with one more
expression of process consulting. What
do you want to do? What's success look
like? How can we help you get there?
Yeah, that's awesome. Um, I assume if
people go to your website, and that's my
next question. Where can people find out
more about you? Um, but if they go to
their website, will they be able to see
future events where you're speaking at
those or those like private events that
uh No, we do put events that I'm at or
they'll be involved in on my LinkedIn
page. So you go for Mark L. Vincent, you
should find me. That middle initial is
kind of critical because people who have
similar names might be more prominent
and there's some that are. So the middle
initial makes sense to use. So mark
Vincent for LinkedIn, but also mark.com
which can also get you to uh my LinkedIn
page and then when you look at events,
we have a calendar there.
Excellent. Well, thank you so much,
Mark. I appreciate the uh the episode
and for sharing your wisdom with me.
This has been great. Oh, it's been a
pleasure and I wish you well as you
continue to bring this good out for
people to hear.
Thank you so much.
All right.
You've been listening to the Art of
Succession podcast with your host
Barrett Young. Twice a month, we'll
bring you interviews sharing the
successes and challenges from business
owners with their own succession
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