Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
It is hard to find good memoir written by and about people who are not famous. And yet, these are some of the best memoirs to read. They are so much more relatable than celebrity memoirs. This is what inspired me to create Definitely Not Famous, a podcast where I interview memoirists about their stories. My goal with this podcast is to elevate the stories of everyday people who truly are More Extra than Ordinary.
[00:00:00] Rebecca: What happens when you realize the book you are writing would be a much better story if it included two voices? How do you weave together the voices to create a balanced story?
[00:00:17] Welcome to Definitely Not Famous, More Extra than Ordinary. I'm Rebecca Hoag, your show host. In this podcast, I seek out memoir authors who are not celebrities, at least not yet, and interview them about their books. I share stories that are more extra than ordinary.
[00:00:38] In this episode, I continue my interview with James MacDuff, who, with his wife, Mirriam Mweemba, co-authored their memoir, The Illogical Adventure: A Memoir of Love and Fate. Our conversation today focuses on writing craft. The memoir didn't start as a neat, finished love story. It started as a writing experiment and then turned into a collaboration that required trust.
[00:01:04] James explains how the book moved from an early idea, capturing his own travel experiences, into a two-voice narrative that could hold both his perspective and Mirriam's. He describes the practical method they developed to protect her voice, recorded conversations, interview-style prompts, drafting from her words, and a careful back-and-forth editing process where privacy boundaries mattered as much as the narrative momentum.
[00:01:32] James: I, I started out this project at the King's as a Master of Fine Arts program in creative nonfiction writing, and I started out the program thinking this was more kind of my own project and it would be an opportunity to put some of my own backpacking travel experiences down. And I, as part of that program, I did do elements of the story and some of the background did make it in to the part one of the story, you know, prior to meeting, meeting Mirriam, how we ended up being, becoming who we are and that sort of, those sort of aspects.
[00:02:02] But certainly there were elements when we started looking at, well, what stories actually connect to the book, a trip to India or a trip to Mexico was maybe compelling and meaningful for a different aspect of, of my life, but didn't really have a connection to the story of Mirriam and I. That got left out.
[00:02:20] The other part that I would say, Mirriam is not here unfortunately, but having done some of these interviews together at different times, one aspect of our writing process was I had been in the program and I had had a long standing interest in writing. Mirriam, not so much, but we learned pretty quickly, I think, as I was trying to come up with the angle of the story and telling our story, that coming just from my perspective alone would, would not be an effective or a compelling opportunity for the reader to really get to know us and was concerned about trying to speak for Mirriam too much in the process of writing.
[00:02:58] So- What we agreed to do was that we would have Mirriam tell her side of the story, and the way we did that was late at night or on drives or when the kids were asleep, I would turn on a recording and, and I'd interview her. I'd ask her questions about the past or especially elements of where I wasn't there at the beginning.
[00:03:17] And then other times we would start talking about what do you remember about this meeting? And, and then I would go back through and type out using her words and trying to keep it in her words as much as possible, her sections, and then present that back to her and she would review and say, "Well, I wouldn't say something like that," or, "I don't...
[00:03:35] I'm not comfortable putting that part in," or there would be that level of editing and back and forth that we would go back to the, to the point where I, I think we've had success in capturing the two different voices, where we didn't just go off and kind of separately type up our own sections and then put them together.
[00:03:51] It was very iterative on that side of things. And you asked the question about what gets cut. There were times when I found Mirriam shared some personal story or aspect that I particularly found intriguing and thought the readers might, and on reflection on... And you know, and this is always an issue you have with memoir of how far do you go in terms of disclosure and other things, and she just felt, "No, I'm not really comfortable with that getting out into the world," and whether for whatever reason, and I made it very clear from the beginning that we would certainly not include anything that she didn't want to do.
[00:04:25] When you're writing your own memoir, on my side of the story, I didn't have that conversation with anyone. I processed it all internally and was able to just do that, right? She had to have a level of trust in me in sharing that she could speak openly and freely about and not worry that we would get into it.
[00:04:43] But there were some, and not to give details or anything, but there were moments where we had, "Oh, but really? You don't wanna put... That's quite a, that's quite good, and it, it's, I think people would love to hear it." But she just said, "No, there's certain things that we'll keep to ourselves." I said, "Fine with that."
[00:05:09] Rebecca: Turning live experience into a book is rarely a straight line. It's drafting, rethinking, and learning how to shape memory into scenes a reader can feel. James describes how formal training and outside readers help the project evolve, pitching the idea, testing structure, receiving feedback about what felt lopsided, and revising until both voices carried equal weight.
[00:05:34] He explains how the book's structure changes as their lives converge, starting with separate perspectives and then weaving more tightly together, so the reader experiences not just what happened, but how the two separate stories become one
[00:05:49] James: When I think about this book, it's a project that I started in my own mind, that I had these travels that I wanted to wr- write down and have preserved in some manner.
[00:05:59] I'd always kept journals. I did a lot of backpacking and a lot of solo travel where I... f- friends would drift in and out, or I would meet new people. But a lot of it was an introspective-type journey, and I had this box of books. And when I came across the King's MFA program, it allowed for exactly what I thought, "This is the-- I need some assistance.
[00:06:18] I need some guidance in how to put these stories together and some instruction." And, and it's, you know, a chance to go back to school, but while keeping my current job, 'cause the, the program, for those who aren't familiar is, it's a low residency. You spend two weeks in the summer in a, in an intensive environment every day doing seminars and listening to speakers and, and, and participating in workshops.
[00:06:40] But then you go off on, on your own time, you do your writing, and you work one-on-one with a mentor who reviews your work. It does allow, and most of the students in the program have a separate job or have separate work stream or something that they're doing. That really gave me the impetus to do this.
[00:06:56] And then I found myself living part of the story. As my first year ended at the COVID, I decided, "Well, I learned a lot. I still don't know exactly where this story is going. Why did people wanna read about James' travels, and how do the loose pieces connect? I think I'm gonna take a break, partly because COVID as well.
[00:07:14] Life is upside down, and I don't know what's going on with Mirriam. I don't know what's the future is with work. I don't really know anything, and I don't wanna continue writing in this context and pursuing." The pro- the, the course instructor said, "No, absolutely. You can put your go on an indefinite leave.
[00:07:29] You've done the f- first half. You've handed in everything," 'cause the semester ended in March. "You can come back in year two, whatever suits you." I went off, and Mirriam and I had this adventure, and then all of this stuff was working, and then we had our first son. And it was at that point, Mirriam had always been encouraging of my writing and had been saying, "We-- now that we're settled in here and everything, we sh- you should go back to the course bef- at some point, you won't be able to go back.
[00:07:55] You have to have some opportunity." We started looking at it. With her support, I went back and I thought, "Well, now I could use a lot of what I did, talk about myself in the beginning, and then, you know, we have these other trips that I've taken," and it does have a bit more of a, an arc and a story of people meeting and then what did they do next, and where do they go from there?
[00:08:17] And who were they when they met and... But it, it had a nice flow, and we would be encouraged to do your pitch as part of the workshop when I got back in, and I was trying to explain, like, how do you sell the book? How do you make it intriguing for folks? And as I was doing that, it was... that's where it really became clear to me that people were more interested or as much or more interested in Mirriam's journey Than in my own.
[00:08:43] I was part of the story, and I, I felt it would be difficult to try to just talk to Mirriam and then write it in my own words what, you know, about her life. That's where the epiphany went on and said, "Well, Mirriam, if you're willing to put in the time and effort to have this be a story that goes back and forth between your perspective and my perspective, for the reader it will be much more fascinating to get a glimpse of both lives and where the two people were coming from and told in different ways."
[00:09:15] I was very concerned that it would come across as me having written, and my own biases and my own style being imposed on it, but we thought, let's give it a go. And with the help of the program, like it's not something as writers who are listening to this know, but I think it's even more... You know, I'd read a lot before I started the program, but I didn't have as much background into the writing side of things.
[00:09:39] But it's very... It's... No one sits down and writes this beautiful story and then people read it. People are always providing, workshopping it, constructive, getting a sense of what the initial readers are thinking. What's confusing? What makes sense? What's missing? What doesn't need to be included? And taking that feedback and then, you know, coming back with your second and third drafts.
[00:10:00] That's responding a little bit in a dialogue with a reader, so that when the readers actually get it, they get the benefit of having seen a final version that's had a lot of more than just the author who's in it. Without having that ability, and Ayelet Tsabari was my mentor who I worked most closely with at the end on this with the idea of doing it with Mirriam, and some of the work we ended up doing with Ayelet was Mirriam's parts.
[00:10:26] And the very first feedback that she gave was, "I don't know if this is gonna work," because your stuff, it's... Some of it had been more polished and had been gone through, and she found it to be imbalanced and thought, "I... Maybe there's got a... Maybe there's another way to explore." And I think it was just 'cause it was our first collective attempt, Mirriam and I, of trying to get, you know, her side of the story out, and was taking that feedback and then getting better at the process of my interviewing and Mirriam really taking the time to reflect on the memories and, and, and the...
[00:11:00] I- she used to get upset at me. Like, "I don't remember what it smelled like. I don't remember what it ... You know, what it... What I was feeling at that time. It's so long ago." It's like, yes, but that's... If you take the time and go through, then maybe something will, will be triggered. So that was a process that we ended up working through it to the point where at the end of the program, we still had a, a lot of the book left to do, and we hired Ayelet to help with...
[00:11:24] Kind of be a... Just to do a critique of the book from beginning to end when it was finished. And it was enormously valuable to have that, an editor-style relationship with someone who could point out where it sound... Like Ayelet would say sometimes, like, "This sounds like you're transcribing." Rather than creatively writing.
[00:11:42] But it jumps out at, and having an independent person do that. And I had one other friend, Matt Bears, who was a great reader as well, and he's not formally in the program or anything, just a friend of mine, curious, also a big traveler, and he would give me feedback as well, very timely basis, and it's important for writers to have that, to have those friends who really show an engagement.
[00:12:03] You're not feeling bad about, "Hey, here's another chapter. Would you please take a look?" He was asking me about it. We were working on ideas, and he would always be very quick to read and give advice. And it was even only having two people who were really immersed in it, it was amazing how often they had similar feedback, and they both coming at it from...
[00:12:22] You could tell when they were both in agreement of, "I don't know why you're telling this part of the story. Just drop that," or, "I wanna know more about what Mirriam was thinking there or what James was doing there. You can't just skip over that scene. That's a big moment in what's going on." And then you'd say, "Okay, well, if those two are both screaming that at us , then we probably anybody else who picks up the draft would say the same."
[00:12:46] Then we would go from there. But it was very time-consuming for that purpose, and it was also the sections with Mirriam would take longer because they, I wasn't just able to do it sitting down on my own, and we didn't wanna have a book that was 75% my side and only 25% 'cause it would be lopsided. There was that element to take into consideration as well.
[00:13:07] But in the final version, I do think it does a nice job of going back and forth, and it lined up nicely to where we would go through the same scene, but you'd see the first part of it through my perspective and then from Mirriam's side. And what I also enjoyed about the final version of it is the way that in the, in the beginning, it's like a chapter of me and a chapter of Mirriam, and then as we get closer, and of course, we're in the same scenes together, we weave it in a little bit more.
[00:13:35] Maybe one chapter becomes like the first half is me and the second half is Mirriam, or the first half is Mirriam. And then in the later chapters, it's a number of perspective changes that take place, and I think that's an interesting, it makes the book a little more unique than just a typical one-person told memoir.
[00:14:03] Rebecca: Memoir asks you to do more than remember. It asks you to decide what belongs on the page and to live with how those choices land with other people. James reflects on the emotional and relational weight of revisiting the past together, the uncertainty of whether all that work will ever be published, the difficulty of naming family and friends in ways that feel fair, and the tension between telling an honest story and protecting the parts of life that should remain private
[00:14:33] James: One of the things that as a memoirist, you're going back into the past, often into excellent, wonderful memories.
[00:14:39] O- other times may be more difficult or just questioning decisions that you might have made or looking at your life in a different way and doing that kind of with someone. And there were times when we thought, oh, do we really want to be doing this? D- is this a project we wanna continue to see to fruition?
[00:14:56] And of course, we didn't know if at the end of the, our work, we would be able to find a publisher and get it out into the world. But you don't have that certainty at the end that as a first-time writer that it will go anywhere. There's all that effort and work that you're going through and having these types of conversations and recalling, uh, the past.
[00:15:14] It is, it is difficult, and then you have those questions about, do you wanna put this in? Do you wanna take that out? And back and forth and is this... Because we're talking about our families, and we're talking about our friends in some cases, and you just, and you don't really know how it will be viewed.
[00:15:30] And of course, Mirriam being, as I said, from Zambia has come over now to Canada and is making her life here, but was just getting to know all of the people that I've known for many years. So there's that, that aspect of- on your mind as well. What will people-- how will their view of me change based on this disclosure of additional details about my life that they might otherwise not be familiar with?
[00:16:02] Rebecca: Writing the book was one challenge. Getting it into the world was another. And James found a path that many emerging writers don't realize is available. James explains how a local creative nonfiction prize and a small press created a realistic route from manuscript to publication. He talks about researching publishers, writing towards a deadline, and why prizes like this matter.
[00:16:26] They offer unknown writers a chance to be read seriously, edited thoughtfully, and supported through the practical work of production without the need for an existing platform.
[00:16:38] James: As part of the King's MFA, you're encouraged to think about the publishing side right from the beginning as well, and there's, there's a seminar that is the January week focuses on the publishing and the business side of the equation.
[00:16:52] And one of the assignments I remember Kim Pittaway having us do was to think about potential publishers for your work, which requires you to do a little bit of research if you're not familiar, as I wasn't. And it so happened that it was in that research that I noted the Pottersfield Prize for Creative Nonfiction Writing.
[00:17:10] Pottersfield Press is a small local press in Lawrence Town Beach in Nova Scotia, who has-- that's been in, in business for quite some time, run by Lesley Choyce, who's, uh, published or has written himself over 100 books. And anyway, they have been doing for a number of years a prize in the creative nonfiction, for creative nonfiction.
[00:17:31] So a story between 30,000 and 150,000 words. The, the deadline is every April 30th, and they let the winners know in June, by July 1st, I think, and then you're with the book being published in the following year. Seeing that and looking at some of the winners, a lot of them had been travel-related, a lot of them had been memoir-esque or some form of memoir.
[00:17:54] I really saw immediately, and this is again before I knew the full range of our story, that this is an opportunity for a no name, no previous writing background or publications, an opportunity to have it reviewed and potential for it to be published in a short turnaround time. Like I think a lot of times you look at the submissions, you, you say, "Okay, well I'll submit here and six months or eight months will go by," and you don't even know if anyone has even opened your draft manuscript.
[00:18:24] And the idea that you could submit by a certain date and then you'd know two months later whether you were the winner. And it was the-- They have two prizes and basically they're the same. You get published and you get a small advance on the book upon signing the contract. But then the book is published very soon thereafter and it's, it's an opportunity to work kind of directly with them.
[00:18:46] I had that in mind right from my first year as that may be an opportunity to do this because you wouldn't want to write it and then be spending years trying to ship it or shop it around and do that. We actually ended up kind of writing to that deadline. We, the, my-- I finished in the program. My second year I joined a little out of order for the second year in January, but I finished by December.
[00:19:09] But then I knew that there was still a significant chunk left, but I saw that April 30th was the timeline. We had a trip planned to go to Zambia in early May. I said, "Let's try and do it to that and submit it by April 30th and then we'll wait to see what happens." And, and we were overjoyed when we found out in late June of 2024, I guess it was, that, uh, we were the winners and that then work started on the, very quickly with the, with the copy editing and the cover design and trying to figure out that whole world of distribution and everything else as well.
[00:19:44] But it was-- We're so indebted to Potterfield because without offering that kind of platform to unknown writers with no other background or no real commercial plans or ideas, it, uh, it just, these books would never make it out into the real world.
[00:20:12] Rebecca: Thank you, James, for taking the time to talk to me. I'm sure listeners will agree, James and Mirriam's illogical adventure is more extra than ordinary. You can support James and Mirriam and this podcast by purchasing their book using the affiliate links in the show notes.
[00:20:38] Thanks for listening to Definitely Not Famous: More Extra Than Ordinary. This podcast is brought to you by me, Rebecca J. Hogue, the host and the producer. To support the show, please consider becoming a patron of my art using the Patreon link in the show notes. Alternatively, you can purchase the books using the affiliate links also located in the show notes.
[00:20:59] You can learn more about the podcast on the website definitelynotfamous.com.