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Barney's Tavern is a corner booth for people who care about this country.
Chris LaBossiere sits down with thoughtful, interesting Canadians — and take the time real ideas deserve. Generals. Entrepreneurs. Policymakers. Artists. Creatives. Builders. People shaping Canada in visible and invisible ways.
The goal isn't debate. It isn't performance. It's curiosity.
Today on Barney's Tavern, I'm joined by entrepreneur, lawyer, political insider, community leader, and probably one of the most interesting Albertans that I know, Emma May. Emma, welcome.
Emma:Thanks. Nice to be with you, Chris.
Chris:Have so many First of all, we've known each other a long time, we're now both entrepreneurs in scale up stages of our businesses. And I've been able to witness that journey. I've witnessed you as, maybe not a lawyer actually, I think maybe when I first met you, might have been had you transitioned into real estate, then you show up and next thing I see you're in politics, and then now you're starting a business to get it up off the ground. I can imagine your days, I can imagine they're probably similar to mine and we see that even if we try to connect, it sometimes takes forever. So let's just set the stage here, but nothing heavy.
Chris:Like what was your morning like? What did you deal with?
Emma:This morning I woke up and immediately dealt with a couple of like having to like reprogram some images that I had created into the format, file formats that were compatible with Shopify because apparently I had taken on some design tasks that usually I have somebody else do, but I wanted to do it myself because I wanted to actually give some more direction on things, but of course then I gave them the wrong file format, so I had to jump back in and figure all of that out this morning, and then get back into actually answering a few emails. I had a call with some guys from JP Morgan who were trying to set up something wherein they, I think they wanted my business until they realized that I wasn't quite at the level that they need me at yet.
Chris:I have been in that conversation probably 50 times, and usually when we are not the ones that meet their minimum thresholds in the capital raise, but my experience there, the advice on that would be just keep those relationships because it's fascinating in that business how if you're meeting investment bankers and, you know, equity, growth equity, it's a community that just kind of persists and your your story travels through that community. That's what I've learned. Like they they They're watching you for a long time. And so those meetings matter even if there's no chance in heck.
Emma:Yeah, I know that. They were like, Oh, you need a they were the one that set up the meeting. Then they were like, Yeah, we work with companies that do X. I'm like, Yeah, that's not me yet. But, soon.
Chris:Yeah. No, it could happen fast, and I'm betting that it will. You know, I guess what I'd like to kind of start with, I'm gonna set the frame of, know, probably because of your product and your business and the industry you're in, I think it's also directly related to your personality. Kind of live an out there life. Know, it looks expansive.
Chris:You're building, you're traveling, you know, you share your voice and you're interested in things that are happening in your community. You're meaning, I guess you're visible. Yeah. So I know, I can imagine, you know, what your, you know, what it might be like on the other side of those images. I'm wondering, you know, like when the posts are all done and you've got all your business stuff done, the day's over, you're kind of alone with it.
Chris:What's the actual weight you're carrying right now?
Emma:How do I keep this going in a way that is aligned with what I want the end vision to be? And I think I get clearer and clearer on all of that as as I build this thing, but I think there's been a lot for me over the past, I would say past six months especially, I think I've gotten, you know, after like a whole lot of personal stuff in my life, like I got separated, my mom died, you know, like it's just been a bit of a gong show on some things, and I think finally getting a bit of like stability in my life and feeling grounded, I actually now can bring a much clearer vision to where I want my business to go, right? I think that's been sort of, for me for the past six months, like a real journey in terms of like, where do I want, you know, trusting myself more, right? Like being really grounded about, no, no, this is the vision of what I have in terms of like product, in terms of where I wanna go, and actually starting to do some of the work around like refining things, like in a really, you know, from the perspective of being true to me, right, and stripping away the things that I think are maybe superfluous, or the things that I think sometimes you get pushed in a direction for different reasons or because there's like a market response to something, but ultimately you know that that might not be the right direction in the long run.
Emma:I don't know if that makes sense, but
Chris:Kind of, I guess what I heard is like the thing that kind of is starting to keep you up at night is preserving what you have and being more strategic and more focused and probably therefore more effective. And that's kind of what I heard as an entrepreneur because it, again, I just, I can imagine the constant pressure to adjust, you know, sometimes you're and you fought off a lot of really specific challenges that are unique to your business in this trade tariff ecosystem that we're in. And, you know, I guess I'd like to hear a little bit about that because I think I think the average Canadian probably doesn't experience that kind of thing, but for you it looked like your whole business was on the line.
Emma:Yeah, it was. It was February, March of last year and we had gotten our US export business up to about 37% of our business, so a significant amount and when the tariffs came down, basically what they did in that immediacy was it increased, it was like 145% on the retail cost of my product, which basically made it like impossible to sell into The US, and I didn't want the customer to come to the site and have that experience of seeing a product that was worth $250 let's say being sold to them at like a thousand bucks. I'm like, yeah, no, let's just cut that. So we had to just stop selling to The US for a period of time and obviously when you can't just replicate the same volume in another market, right? You can't just sort of retrench and expect things to stabilize.
Emma:So we had to like, pull back, stop in The US, communicate to customers there why we were stopping, and then spend a couple months both rebuilding business domestically, and then figuring out if there was still a way that we would be able to actually service that market. And in time we figured it out, it took us a couple months, but we ended up realizing there was this thing called rule of first sale, and so we were able to actually sell into The US where the tariffs were still applicable, but they had A, come down a bit, and then B, it was going to be applicable to like our cost as opposed to a retail cost, so we were able to get back into that business there and now it's about 60% of our business, The US market, so you know at the time I made the decision that The US market was still a very viable market for us and that it was an important market, and so it was important to look at ways in order to be able to continue to service that market, understanding that it might take us a while to do that, but not to like give up on it entirely, right?
Chris:You know, we've gotten really deep into like tax and tariff policy, I have perfect context of what you're telling me, but I'm realizing that I really want people to understand your business, your business idea and you know, what it does so people can contextualize our conversation, but also you know, it's always fascinating to hear from a founder entrepreneur, particularly a visionary one like yourself, like describe your business to us. And I think you've had done something that I think is unique that that is novel as well in terms of how you're targeting the market and what your target market is. I'd love to share when you share that, because it's also a very good lesson, I found it very interesting.
Emma:Yeah, so my background was I was in law and then politics for a while, so I was a sort of a deputy chief of staff kind of role within the Alberta Premier's office, and then we lost an election and I went back to wearing jeans and t shirts, and I had a board meeting one day and I came out of the board meeting, I was about trying to get dressed to go into a board meeting, and I was frustrated because I wanted like a pencil skirt that matched a blouse, that matched like a blazer, and it was all modular, and I didn't have it, and I thought, you know, I should create that, and I should create that for my peers, who were lawyers, who I knew were sort of wandering around the mall trying to pull together outfits to wear to work that weren't super fancy and were just good and accessible and still super professional looking, something that you could wear to court and not feel like you were dressed ridiculously. So I came up with the idea of Sophie Grace, which was modular mix and match workwear for professional women, and that clearly hit a target, right?
Emma:So we have now a lot of, I call them the ballers, like the full baller customers, I think the presidents of Ivy League universities, top AI researchers, people who are literally leading governments across North America, these are our customers and I'm very grateful to them and they come to us because they're like, I know I can come to you and get something that's well made and that works and that I can show up in any business meeting and feel super pulled together and you make my mornings ridiculously simple. So the average age of my customer is over 40. She is not someone who's marketed to a ton. There's been a bit of a hurdle in terms of the fashion industry and selling online. One of the biggest things people rely on there and to get where you can get a lot of velocity is through social sharing, right?
Emma:And something that's been a real challenge for me in this business is that my customer is not a social sharing customer. She is not a selfie queen, she isn't jumping on TikTok, she isn't doing any of these things. When we get her, she's incredibly loyal and she stays with us and she buys a lot more.
Chris:And tells 10 people.
Emma:And tells but 10 she is not, we don't get that, we've had to buy the marketing through ads, through ad buy, as opposed to being able to sort of rely on an organic social thing and that's mainly because she's not the person who's, I refer to her as sort of the executive producer as opposed to the movie star. She's not the person who's gonna jump on and trouble doing that. In fact, she's too busy, she's just going to court to go run the trial. She has no time to then get on social and talk about it. So that's been a bit of a We're working our way through that and finding influencers that work for us in the space and things like that, but that's been a huge challenge for us.
Emma:On the flip side of that is, she's also not as fickle as that younger audience. When she does land with us, she does come back.
Chris:I have to imagine, we're in a similar business in an e commerce way, different, totally different products. But what I've witnessed in the last six months diving a little deeper into our marketing sales operations, because we're kind of shifting to a different approach, revenue operations. And I and I kind of planted myself on the front end of that, I felt our marketing needed a better understanding by me and by our senior executive leadership. And I was blown away, like just digging and pulling threads of how, like audience targeting as an example, the, the, the real time awareness tools that you can use when you're literally in a conversation with people. The, you know, obviously just things like, email marketing drip.
Chris:But you know, when I see your marketing in the real world, like, because I understand what you're doing behind the scenes is very complex and it's actually But fascinating to when I see it in the real world, it's differentiated. It's totally different, higher quality, and it's a very, very subtle thing. It might be the aesthetic. It might be the approach. But and, know, I guess what I want to say, like, when you describe your business, you you described it as like the, you know, that that that executive who doesn't want to have to make that decision in the morning and the convenience of that, but they still have to look professional.
Chris:They want to project what their competency is. Know, I've always admired that that is an empowering component of your product. Here's what I see. I go, That's not a price sensitive market. So you have a much higher basket size.
Chris:They are sticky, meaning like you said, they're loyal, but they're also in a modular system. They buy these three things that'll work with those eight things. And it's going to have a stickiness about it that is really generally related probably for that person's career. If they like the product, if it is what it's promised to be, they'll stay with it forever because it's just so trusted. So when I saw that, you told that story to me five years ago.
Chris:It was immediate to me that that was an investable solid idea in a space that looks like every day your chances of living or dying seem to shift based on the winds. Like you've told me some of the things you've dealt with, but like you've had, you've had the tariff issue, which has been complex and changes quite regularly. You had a supplier pass away or was there a warehouse fire or a supplier
Emma:passed Yeah, we away or manufacturing about 80% of our product in the Vancouver area and our, yeah, the person who ran the factory died, and we ended up, a lot of our product had been cut, but it hadn't been sewn, and so it was useless to us in that moment, and we had to shift back to a different supplier we had in Asia, who is our current supplier and great, but at that moment I didn't have the inventory that we needed for the summer and we had to power our way through that and then re dig in and buy more inventory without really knowing where I was gonna get the money from to do that. And went to some of our customers for some support there, and they stepped up for us, which was awesome. Yeah, and then it all landed, that product run, so we had like this period where we didn't have new product, we didn't have stuff in stock that we needed in order to support the sales that we had projected, and then we ended up getting all of that product landed November 1, which was right when the port strike hit.
Chris:Right, yes, port strike.
Emma:Yeah, we
Chris:had to
Emma:get the product that we had ordered off the boats for about three weeks, so we missed a lot of opportunity there, and then that was followed right after by the tariffs. So, we'd been growing rather significantly for a few years and then things, we had a bit of this. I stayed flat in terms of my revenue, I didn't go down, which was, you know, great. I think there's at this point with this business that it is a bit of a, you know, if you pull back too hard, it's a death spiral, right? Like you just sort of can't get out of it because then you don't have the people to
Chris:You mean like in is this in new lines releasing new colors? Is this Yeah. Is this marketing spend?
Emma:Inventory. It's like, well, if I don't have inventory to sell, I've gotta make the purchases, right? I have to keep going. I have to just keep buying and then be selling. And the other side of that is there is, you know, it is a creative industry, and so there is a creative pressure that comes with this, right?
Emma:Like, are we meeting the creative demands? Are we matching up where we want to be? Product evolution is something that I am obsessed with, right? I'm wearing one of our new t shirts today, is, it's a fabric that we sourced out of Portugal, is incredible. I'm just obsessed with it, but you have to be, like you have to be obsessed with the product as well, and you know, we're going through a period right now where one of our products is getting a higher return rate than I expected it to get, and that it didn't have before, so we're digging into what is it that people aren't liking about this, how do we make an improvement to it, do we move away from this product or do we replace it with something else, so there's always this, there is this constant tension of, you know, I need new things, my customer is expecting new things from me and how do I create things that she wants?
Emma:And sometimes it's a hit and sometimes, you know, you do have misses, sometimes, I think that's just the nature of the beast, but there is this pressure to stay consistently like creative, which is a different pressure.
Chris:Yeah. And I find it fascinating mostly because I know you didn't come into this industry with fashion or even fashion retail experience. You kinda had that commitment to solving that problem that you had, which is a better place to start from, to be honest, because you're at least you have a value proposition and at least you have a story. And the story is so, so important obviously, and particularly in a world of retail and social sharing, as you say. And I just think the attention to detail to how you've proven your brand promise, which is the comfort, the modularity, but still continuing to be fashionable.
Chris:Like it, you know, that, that seems to be, that seems to be what I see. That's what I see from the outside. That's the, let's just say you're, you know, the, the Instagram or social marketing is working in that sense. Yeah. Thanks.
Emma:Good to know.
Chris:I'm curious though, like, in terms of all of those hard things that you had to deal with and notwithstanding all the things you had to learn and the things that would be in direct opposition of your style that every owner has to still worry about, like all those things, like what's been that principle motivator? If it's a motivator or maybe, and it could be, you know, altruistic or deeply personal or just very, very practical, but what has prevented you from stopping? What prevents you from stopping? Just walking out the door, taking an exit and stopping. Why are you-
Emma:I think there's a certain level of pride that comes into things, right? I think when I started this, I had close friends who were like, That's dumb. No one will buy that. Well, I remember one of my friends' boyfriends was ripping on me one night and we'll refrain from naming him, but I have an F U X sort of moment. Every time I have a win, I'm kind of like, fuck you so and so.
Emma:Right? Like, there a beat the haters component to it. And I other side to it, though, is actually that when I see the customers who really get it, who we really solve that problem for, feel so much joy in showing up and looking great and feeling like they finally have cracked the code on how they show up to work in a way that they want to, that is actually like, that's what I wanna keep doing. Like, that's a really good feeling and it feels like, you know, it's funny, I was at an event here in Vancouver a couple weeks ago and I article ed in Vancouver when I was a lawyer. Was at this firm, Farris LLP, which is where I article ed, and I ended up running into my old friend who I had article ed with and she was, and we were talking and she was just like, Oh my God, do you remember X?
Emma:And I'm like, Yeah, and they're like, Oh, well, she's now this top litigation lawyer in the province of BC. And she's like, Her entire wardrobe is your stuff. Right? And this was someone who I knew when we were working together struggled with the idea of how she showed up for work in an appropriate way. She wasn't great at fashion.
Emma:She wasn't interested in it. She's interested in law. She's like the top lawyer. She's like kicking ass. Right?
Emma:And it's fun to think of the fact that like, you know, she was someone who was always like, I don't where do you get your stuff? I don't understand how you're pulled together. You know? And now it's like, I've been able to sort of solve this problem for her. So that's like, I think that's a fun part of it for me is when I see the women who really get it and they put it on their bodies and they feel really good and they feel confident and they feel like themselves.
Emma:It's pretty satisfying. And it's pretty satisfying to like go out in the world. Like I was watching TV the other night and there was a commercial, we were watching the hockey game, the Montreal, the Habs. And there was a commercial for some financial product came on. And the woman who was like hosting the commercial was wearing my dress, you know, and I'm like, oh, there's our dress.
Emma:That's really fun. And then, you know, we're watching the news and then like one of the hosts came on and she was wearing our shirt and I was like, oh, there's our shirt.
Chris:There must be a touch of frustration that it doesn't say, you know, Sophie Grace on the internet. So funny because it's like
Emma:like our whole brand is really about being is about not being that thing that's still
Chris:It's kind of the professional interpretation of this quiet luxury thing that people talk about in my, you know, Lisa, my wife.
Emma:Yeah. Is.
Chris:But both her and I appreciate a certain, you know, part of that rationale behind that aesthetic for sure. And, you know, I think it's really interesting to watch retail because feels like it's just kind of bifurcating, like there's just gonna be a $10 t shirt and you just no one else would be able to get anything different. And then there's the summon that will drop $4.50 on a shirt and and, you know, three pairs of slacks, I'm sure at $300. And it really, I think it really equates to identity and it equates to but the identity is like the big market that everyone's attacking. It's brand sensitive, huge capital, whereas you attacked it really logistically, maybe not intentionally, I don't know, I'd be curious to know actually, by defining the product and making it appeal to people who are thoughtful and make decisions that way.
Chris:That's kind of what it looked like, because you described, your client is described as someone who probably is very thoughtful about what they do, how they do it, how they perform, how they're perceived, I would assume. And I think that's especially more challenging for a woman. But did you do that by intent? Like meaning that that's how you wanted to attack the market? Or would you prefer to just have an unlimited marketing budget and then, you know, create the next version of another line that maybe doesn't have that same brand promise?
Emma:Well, yeah, I'd love to do that too. But, why not? I think for me there was this idea around, I wanted something that I knew, you know, there's a dearth of normal in the fashion market, right? Like for a lot of women. Like for men there's a real, you know, here's your suit and things are very, you know, the palette is always very refined and structured and in the women's market, there's a lot of like floral this and pattern and bright color and I love that, like on a personal basis, I quite love that, but when you're showing up to a meeting with a bunch of CEOs and you're in, let's say, the premier's office like I was, there's something about being unless you, like, have a really keen, deep sense of style and fashion and you're super into it and you pull that off really, really well, a lot of the time it distracts from who you are and what you're there to do.
Emma:And so some people can pull that off and it's amazing and it's phenomenal. But if you're uncertain about it, lots of women will put something on and feel like, I'm not sure, I don't know. And I wanted to give those women who were super confident in their skills and their abilities and their and the That thing where they could put it on and be like, I don't I'm not standing out.
Chris:The least amount it distracts from what I'm here to accomplish or communicate the better. But yeah, actually that's that's so like and I was actually more from asking for a marketing perspective, but clearly you designed the business to target that category because that was a problem you're solving. But did you find the way to market to that community by accident? Was Well, it with
Emma:and error, Chris, right? Because like, and to be honest, like marketing has been the biggest, that's been the hardest thing for us. Like I have a person who's like really great at product, we can make mistakes in product and move on and things like that, but generally speaking, we've had winners, we've had sort of winners in the collection from day one. You'll always like try new things there, but the marketing thing had been a much more difficult nut to crack because we were explaining and what's been interesting actually is in terms of like meta, now the way we do, now the way the targeting works is actually targeting, I mean, the AI targets based on content. So we don't set actually who the target is anymore.
Chris:Clearly. That is different than my business. So I'm assuming that's a kind of meta approach to your product type, like retail, I'm guessing.
Emma:Yeah. And
Chris:so That's it's fascinating.
Emma:I mean, we can, but now it's really based on this idea that actually Meta know based on the what your content is, Meta will find that audience. And so really then it's about making sure that the content we create is very specifically saying who this might appeal to.
Chris:But is that it has to say it? Meaning is it reading it? Does it or can it see it? Like your video quality, photo production quality?
Emma:Yeah. And also things like, you know, I'm in a lot of our ads and I talk about my life experience and why it is that I created the thing that I created. So it's finding those people for whom that would resonate with.
Chris:I like that. I like the way you do that, by the way, because I think that authenticity in kind of a post truth world, if that what we call where we live today, not really knowing what's real or not real. It's fun to encounter and to see real authenticity alongside commercial things like a business and a business owner sharing their real thoughts gives me more trust for some reason. Yeah. And it's I fun think you have to approach your market that way.
Emma:Yeah. And it's frustrating too from the business rep, because sometimes, you know, like I go on these, like you go and look at stuff and everyone's like, oh, AI marketing's the best. And look at how many ads I was able to create with this and blah, blah, blah. And as much as I love, you know, in terms of being able to like project and forecast and use AI in many, many aspects of my business, which I will talk about another, but I mean mandate it, on the side of, in terms of like actually connecting to the customer, I think it's a real detriment, and I think the customers, the know and feel it, they know when something's been created by, they know when the content has been created by AI and that it's not real. I mean, to the point that actually people are looking for flaws almost to prove the authenticity of things.
Chris:I was in a conversation, the last whatever this is show that I had with a great kind of disruption innovation AI expert speaker, Sean Canango, we talked about that. He's, know, has this theory about like your business needs to be frictionless or high, high friction, like the Four Seasons versus the API connection and a headless software that nobody ever, you know, they just plug two things together and they send you a Like, that was really fascinating. And I, you know, I interpreted originally that you have to be one or the other, but what we talked through was that parts of my business, when I need to have personal interaction or relations or understanding of a customer, you know, their needs, their feedback. You've got to slow that down and you've got to now with intent personalize it in a way that makes them feel safe and, you know, like that bespoke approach, and ideally in a modular business. And so, but in a modular business, in a working capital inventory sensitive business, in a digital marketing world where the algorithms change every day, you literally can't, that has to be as scalable and as frictionless as possible.
Chris:And so I thought it was an interesting theory and it kind of brings me back to fashion. This question I was going ask is maybe less relevant, but I don't think so because you've chosen a certain segment where there really isn't a high external value of the fashion industry. I talk about the devil wears Prada. Lisa and I saw it this weekend. The culture, the community, the value of like the investment amount that goes into a literal brand, it's fascinating.
Chris:And it looks, you know, and you're also talking about like the beauty standard you're talking about, like, is a crazy industry when you look at it from the outside. Yeah. Is there one thing that, you know, that the outside doesn't see that you've learned about this industry?
Emma:Oh. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, well, first of all, it's really hard. And secondly, I think one of the things that, when you start something, I can't make everybody happy. Right? I get constant things about, you're not size inclusive enough and comments like that are you know?
Emma:And and no, I'm not, but I can't be. End of story. Like, I cannot afford
Chris:to product doesn't work in that application, meaning, like, Like, just hard to
Emma:what is it what is what is inclusive? Tall people? Petite sizes? Larger people? It's all
Chris:over
Emma:the map. You're never gonna be able to cater to everybody. And it's just actually impossible, especially for a small brand, to make anything. And even things that you need to do pattern changes, you need to shift stuff, the amount of investment that goes into-
Chris:You're just talking about literally the cost and risk associated with trying to do all those things versus specializing Yeah. Where you know your margins
Emma:So it's basically like, no, this is what I have to do. Even on that side of things, I still have to have a certain number of skews. I mean, you know, like I would love to, you know, if I was starting a business, I'd love to start a gummy business or something where I've got like one little thing.
Chris:But you know the machine. I feel the same way. I have to learn how to basically put this substrate of like automation and AI tools and, because you'll only survive that way, you know, and I'm mostly in marketing and sales and sales conversion and you know, sales revenue growth. That's where and of course your product and your we have a software, so our product plays the role out front. And, yeah, it's it's it's well, it's a never ending set of challenges.
Chris:You know, but to go back to the fashion space for a second, like, again, I I I you know, it's it's just kind of it's sexy and romantic to see the what's Anna Winter character who can defy every business rule in a setting where it's a corporate owner because their identity is so powerful, meaning that they bless something and it has whatever downstream revenue and cash flow value that would be almost like hard to imagine because, and you see it with, you know, Ferrari. We we we we were in Italy for a wedding last year. We got to go to the Ferrari factory tour. It was fascinating how they they're so intentful in protecting the value of that brand. And, you know There
Emma:is something, Chris, about, you know, and this is a direction that I think I need to get better at, which is trusting myself in terms of creative direction. Right?
Chris:You mean like, is my product good enough? Am I able to compete in this space or am I fooling myself?
Emma:Beyond that, in terms of saying, sometimes the market will push back on you when you're trying to make everybody happy. Right? You're trying to be like, how do I make something that lots of people will like? Really sometimes it's like, actually, how do I make something that's just really beautiful that fits, that does what I need it to do? And to trust my gut that I will come up with something that is really beautiful.
Emma:There might be people on my team who say, No. And I have to say, No, I think the market will like this. I think it will cut through, and we're gonna make it. Right? And you have to take those risks, right?
Emma:Because within the framework of those risks are the pieces that actually are the winner, that like stand out and win. People see that you've made something there that is a bit different, that they are attracted to, that they get. And so even though I'm still trying to do this thing within the frame of keeping things as simple as I can, I still need to sometimes take a risk and make something that's a little out of the box or a little more beautiful or tells or has a creative perspective that I'm bringing to it? Right? Because if you don't do that in fashion or creative industries, you I think you just sort of you lose you lose your voice.
Emma:Right? And you lose your angle and you lose what makes special, right? And you're more easily replicable. I think one of the things that I've been trying to do lately actually is, and this ties into a bit of this idea of trust too, with the consumer is, you know, we've got this, I do have this app called Outer Signal, which gives me like customer information, I think we talked about this on customer, and so I've always been like, well, do I really use this? How do I use all of this data that I have on my customer in a way that's really interesting?
Emma:So what I, one of the last ones I did was I pulled up like, who are all my top buyers in in The US especially because that's we have privacy legislation in Canada. So I can't do that here. But who are all these top buyers in mind? And it gave me their LinkedIn addresses. Right?
Emma:And so I was able then to go just to them. And so sometimes when I
Chris:sent email Fascinating.
Emma:Yeah. So sometimes when I send an email to one of our top customers, just saying, hey, it's Emma. People are like so used to email bots that they're like, whatever. But when I actually sent them a personal message on LinkedIn from me, not from the brand, from me, like, Hey, I'm the founder of Sophie Grace. I see you bought from us a lot.
Emma:I wanted to say, I appreciate it. I'm not trying to sell you anything. I wanna make a connection because I wanna know about you. Right? Like, wanna know who my customers are.
Emma:Who are these people who are buying stuff? And then I actually started having some really great conversations, and I've done a few, like, hour long conversations with people figuring out, like, what's your life like? Where do you use our product the most? How much do you travel? What are your favorite things?
Emma:What are we not doing that you would like for us to do? You know? And find this sort of inspiration and where this what these people are actually looking for. Right? And how do I keep servicing them?
Emma:So it's not that they're coming to me saying, Make this. They're coming to me saying, This is what my life is. This is the kind of stuff that I like. And then it's my job to go away and create something that fits for them.
Chris:Well, ultimately it probably has a value in terms of just, you know, the social sharing aspect. Mean, oh gosh, the owner was, you know, or commenting even there being seen to comment and talk directly to your customer as a founder. And that's kind of, you know, well, I've been through many different cultures in in a corporate or in a corporate world, but in my own as an entrepreneur, haven't really thought about that because the culture just emanates from all of us based on what we do every day. Whereas, you know, in a corporate world, all the structure determines a culture sometimes. And the, you know, so first of all, I'd, I would love to talk about like how these identities persist inside that because you have like, the Louis Vuitton company, I can't remember LVMH, you know, which is one of the biggest companies on the planet.
Chris:It's an, it's really conglomerate of like these identities they, that they can't fuck with. Like if they screw that up, the whole thing collapses because you go from first to third in what's popular. And I find that fascinating that how much those original creators keep their identity inside those ecosystems and somehow the corporate guys with the spreadsheets figure out how to leave alone those. It's really that the value is the identity of the person. I believe that's how you've presented your brand.
Chris:Not the name, I know the name of the story, the story behind the name, ultimately you they want to be associated with your approach to the world, how you act, how you decisions. I mean, because you can be sometimes very taken very seriously in many ways, but then you sometimes you share things that are artistic or creative or eclectic or spontaneous, maybe inappropriate. And the reality is like, I think that's why you have a following and it's just fascinating. Reason we're at the other direction I want to go there because that's producing success, that model, but when corporate, or I don't know who bought, so you'll know the history here, but when Lululemon shifted away from being a founder led organization, which I think really means the founder being directly connected to the culture and the customer, because they are literally connected, to an independent financially motivated buyer, maybe strategic, maybe financial, but the identity or the soul or the culture can collapse. It looks like it did in that case.
Chris:Then I think did he come back? Didn't he come back and Well, reposition
Emma:sorry, Chip's really, I mean, I'm actually really fascinated by what he's doing right now as someone who, Chip was very connected to the product, right? Product innovation and staying ahead with product. And I think that's something that I try to keep in mind as the founder as well, is that that vision of knowing your customer incredibly well so that you can make product for them that feels relevant to them is huge. And when, you know, I think one of the things they did was, right, like they developed like let's say the Align fabric, which you know, and then they coast on that for years, and you can do all these things where you play around with like, oh, you've got a retention strategy or a discount strategy or a this or a that, but at the end of the day, it's product that brings your customer in the door, and if you were not innovating and you were not developing and you were not pushing boundaries and you're not trying things that are new and testing stuff, you're not going to stay ahead of the game, you're going to lose traction to people who are doing that.
Emma:I think what he's doing is he's stepping in and saying, you guys got too corporate and you forgot about the fact that the customer is expecting product innovation from us, that we were a leading thing on product.
Chris:Yeah, created a new category, really. Created a
Emma:new category and now it's like, okay, so how do you stay in with that? And they became so corporate, they became so obsessed with the minutiae and the spreadsheet that they forgot to, you know, really continue to do the work that is, that was foundational what the brand is. I think that's what Chip's trying to do now is in, you know, he's trying to get like people on the board that believe in that vision. And I don't think that's going the direction that he wants it to at the moment.
Chris:Oh, I thought he was stepped back in. I knew he was being a little bit of a kind of activist.
Emma:Not, he's vocal and he's still a huge, obviously, so I have
Chris:huge But the story is about him, what the effect on the business once he left, and then that's, you know, we've seen that story again and again and again. Now on financial metrics, you couldn't compare the Apple story because like Apple scaled because they've built like ecosystems that scale like that. But you know, you could argue that the product innovation has completely collapsed. Like AI in terms of there is no category killer coming up. We don't
Emma:have an AI solution in this market.
Chris:Well, now, and there's an argument and I've read some stuff that, you know, it's actually going to be the hardware version of products that will ultimately be sticky because because all of the things inside it are completely replicable for free, theoretically, you know, and so, and I think there is an interesting argument there. I, you know, I, and I'm not a product person. I don't think I would be successful in a space like that. But, but, you know, I, I think that we're all going to eventually into, that this would be very homogenous, like, profile or, or, you know, of, of all of our because it'll all become like the perfect version of it, whatever that means in size and use case, but there'll still be the software experience inside of it, connected to that device. So I it's fascinating to me.
Chris:I I, you know, I don't know if the fashion industry is disrupting itself. Like, you know, AI, I like to talk about that, but I mean, I don't see it disrupting the business in terms of the product because it's still going to be a physical product or am I wrong? And then of course AI is disrupting every other part of every other business. But does that industry turning into a corporate thing and then it's not seeing this thing that's coming, or is there never a thing that's coming to fashion?
Emma:Well, at the end of the day, people, unless you're lying at home in bed, and you're using an avatar to represent you, and you never leave the house, you'll probably have to wear something. So, there has been a big push into, you know, I think the big push back into, you know, resale is very interesting. That's been really, I mean, first of all, that's, representative of the fact that there's been a decline in the quality of production over the course of years in terms of fashion. You've got lots of really cheap players in this space making cheap things, which don't stand the test of time and so people are looking back and saying, Oh my God, if I go to this vintage store and I found something that was made in 1970, it's a totally different kind of quality than what we see today, you know, with a lot of sort of the fast fashion brands. So there is a push in that space and I think that that's what that for me does is say actually that there's a desire for quality that still exists, right?
Emma:It's important to actually make things that are of a much higher quality and make the investments in those and that people will spend the money on investment pieces that do stand the test of time. So, you know, I think for us that's about new product development moving a bit, moving more in that direction. Obviously that, you know, slows your market down, but I do have a customer who has the capacity to pay, And so the expectation on me is that I'm making things that are of that quality estate. Yeah, no,
Chris:yeah, it's just, I think it's directly related to what I would consider to be the wage and wealth gap that's widening. And that's the, there's two inevitable things that are gonna make that never end. It's gonna continue to widen until a societal shift to some, you know, that's usually war or something like that happens. And if you're in a certain position, and I think this goes back to Sean's idea of friction versus frictionless. He used friction as the four seasons, which is an exact example of what we're kind of talking about.
Chris:And you kind of have to go up that, but now the and now you have a global market. So like now now just, you know, you might have a much smaller niche that you're going after, but you're going after an international one and then it would just, it all becomes the value of the brand. So I hope your brand finds its, you know, kind of huge success there because I definitely think you've, you've kind of created a category as well. That's one of the things that I felt about your business is I didn't see it anywhere. Right?
Chris:But I could see the value of it. Like, you know, I know lots of professional women in many capacities and everything you described that they would want because I have the same issue. Like, I kind of wish I wore a suit every day only because it's this fucking one less decision. Like I don't need more decisions. I have, an amazing wife who helps me with that.
Chris:Like to say, you know, suggest things and actually maybe assemble things. Otherwise, like I would just either be in a suit every day if I had to, if that meant that's the difference between being successful getting my real thing done, the thing I'm building, or if I don't need to be in that room, I'm going to be in a, you know, probably a hoodie and jeans. And so it's fascinating space. I want to shift directions and I want to do kind of a of a big one because we could go on for a long time. And I know the one thing that, you know, I wanna explore a little bit with you, but I'm gonna be careful to do it because I wanna talk about politics because we have a political past, like we were involved in a political party together, you were the, you know, principal secretary, I mean, whatever the title was, but essentially kind of ran the premier's office for Southern Alberta.
Chris:Right? And in terms of where what you know, a lot of people don't know that there's a center in Calgary where the, you know, the premier, I guess symbolically has an office. I don't know if that's a symbolism thing or practical thing, but you were directly connected to the premier's office and you got there because you were a great community activator. You know, the post flood response that you and others created and the solution that you advocated for was needed and practical and it was a big mountain of climb and you got it done and you showed you could get it done. And I think that would be, you know, that's why you were probably helpful, important or could be impactful in politics.
Chris:I respect the role of politicians, because, you know, I also at the same time, for the leader that you worked for, Jim Prentiss, who I have, you know, just I had an just this amazing respect for, because he felt like the balance of what I, you know, what I what I would hope aspire a leader to be. And, you know, and I I don't like to talk about that period of my life because it's, you know, it wasn't very fun. It's not a fun place. It's it's a hard industry to be in if we're going to use that kind of language. So last night or yesterday, I'm supposed to not date these, but it doesn't matter.
Chris:The premier delivered an address to Albertans and said that we're going to have a referendum on a referendum. I think there's this weirdness. One of the biggest challenges here is I don't think Albertans understand what's really happening. But symbolically, it's extremely big decision. It's been national news from the minute it happened.
Chris:It didn't have to happen. You know, there was a couple off ramps here, looks like. And it feels like, you know, it's either a strategy or it's a mistake in terms of the political rationale behind it. But, you know, the the market rationale, the Canadian story, all that kind of stuff is impacted by it. At a time where Canada has this, like, ascendance in terms of hopefully reputation, hopefully becoming more of a connected player in an economy, that kind of stuff.
Chris:So it feels like there's a lot on the line right now. But as somebody who's been in there and knows how those decisions are made and know what the thinking is and stuff like that, like when she shared her I guess when the premier shared the strategy for the referendum with the province last night, how did you feel?
Emma:I mean, I don't like it. End of story. I don't like it. I think we're at a time when it looks like there's actually some more goodwill between the feds and the province in terms of being able to build things like energy pipelines and move things forward. I understand from an Albertan perspective, what some of the frustration has been with Ottawa, especially over the past ten years.
Emma:I like 100% get that. I think some of the energy policy stuff has been, you know, really detrimental to the country as a whole. I don't think, you know, I do believe that we have to still adhere to and push forward on, you know, climate change initiatives, but I also think that the realistic perspective on Canada is that we are an energy superpower, and that our resources have always been the source of our wealth, and the opportunity and the fact that this is how we give our citizens the kind of life that we want, and that we believe in. So, do believe that that's been a significant part of our, know, of how this country is, ways in which this country has thrived, and that's across the country, whether that's hydro, or forestry, or oil and gas, or what have you, mining, critical minerals now we're looking at, and I think that we've now got a prime minister who, the world circumstances are such that we understand that I think much more deeply on a national level, right, and that we're not necessarily looking at things from this perspective of like, you know, pie in the sky, but more from a much more sort of realpolitik perspective of what is it that we need to get done in order for this country to thrive, especially with sort of some of the pushback that we've had from The United States and our trade relations with them.
Emma:So, I think we've got someone now who's trying to build that bridge and I think that the premier's actually been very constructive in terms of her work with Prime Minister Carney on really trying to build that out too. So I think that they've had some really great discussions there and I really think that this undermines all of that.
Chris:So, yeah, and I think that's how a lot of people feel like this was a kind of a proverbial line that that that, you know, because the agreement has been honored by both sides meeting, like, think, you know, the the the premier, you know, was very clear in terms of what she's gonna do. She's normally projected that in the sense that she's willing to take bold positions on things. And I think people see her as like this kind of, know, really the embodiment of this first part of the issue that you talked about, which is, you know, there's a legitimate or not legitimate, but this story that, you know, Alberta's being ignored or, or being attacked. And that that that could be used as a political narrative. And then that inside that, there's real true things, and then there's things that aren't obviously not true.
Chris:And so I think she was able to really, you know, position herself there because there's legitimate grievances and if you didn't have a direct one, you could see the value in still wanting to fight for, you know, for a better, more, you know, whatever piece of the pie, if you want to call it that way. And then you have this prime minister that's now kind of reignited the Canadian identity, put the defense industrial strategy in front of people, so like, we're gonna, we're gonna build the spine of this economy is gonna be built on this investment back in Canada, which will be defense and infrastructure and ideally, and I'm sure energy and then data. And, you know, and like there's going to be, you know, the economic world is gonna shift to, you know, to more of a digital ecosystem, which will have to have, meaning we'll have a Canadian stable coin, has been actually been approved. And so, you know, it's all about sovereignty, but then you see this, what looks like momentum, like it looks like legitimate global respect for the Canadian brand. Yeah.
Chris:To depoliticize it, that's kind of what I feel. So we've got this, you know, Alberta's been challenged, you know, by external forces in the ten years, like we hear about the ten years of the Trudeau Prime Minister, and then we have this emergence of Canada. Which do you think is more true? Which feels more true to you right now? Between Is Alberta been a victim?
Chris:And that has been the biggest reason that we are where we are right now? Or Canada is emerging and exploding and I could be an exciting place for us to
Emma:think there's natural tension between the provinces and the feds. I think, when you have a country the size of our country, you're gonna have that kind of natural tension, and that exists. So I do believe that there are legitimate grievances, totally, 100%, but I also believe that they are entirely overcomeable and that they're not, you know, and putting this referendum idea on the table with like this tiny minority of vocal Albertans who have been whipped into a frenzy by people who quite frankly, you know, some of the leadership of that movement are perhaps some of the more problematic folks. I think some of them used to work for indigenous nations across the province purporting to take money from them on retainers to negotiate federal buyouts for people. And now they're leading an independence movement that seems to have no consistent thought about the fact that we have First Nations rights that exist within the province as well.
Emma:How are you planning to navigate that with, you know, with this independence movement? Like, it's just absurd to me. It's like
Chris:And I and I you know, we we we know that well, most politicians at that level, but frankly, we know the premier has, you know, the intellect and the and the awareness and the ability to kind of discern information as a communications and great communicator that likely knows all those things to be true. So to me I guess it looks like I know which one feels more true, which is-
Emma:A pleading minority that you know, is holding a thread over her head.
Chris:Right. And that's it. Like ultimately, the leadership test here because Ed Selmack was in the same position in my opinion, like in in there was something called Bill 44. Is like, gosh, it might have been 2008 or nine. And he had to make a political decision about, you know, kind of protect that base.
Chris:And even if it's a little distasteful, I'm going to kind of make sure I keep that base because it's reliable. It's a super reliable base in Alberta and it's almost definable about your where your postal code is, let alone, you know, how you see the world and, you know, versus there's a big swath, I think, of people who want the balance. It's just true. You know, the centrist thing can be attacked because it sounds vague, but it to me, if you use the word balanced, it sounds, you know, understandable. And I think the, you know, the premier the premier has the opportunity to grab a lot of real estate that she doesn't seem to want to grab or it's too risky for her.
Emma:This is beyond balance. Like, this is Like is stupidity.
Chris:No, but that's what I mean. She chose this path, but it was a choice.
Emma:Yeah. I mean, the risk of destabilizing an economy that's actually doing really, really well at the moment, like you can't tell me that with $100 oil prices that Alberta's not thriving, so the risk of destabilizing that the way that Quebec was destabilized by the referendums that took place there in the 80s, I think it's like it's that is a real risk that exists. The other side of it is like. I'm sorry. We're surrounded by Canada on all sides.
Emma:Like, what do you like, what is the practical implication? What happens to people's CPP? What happens to people's citizenship? What happens to people's passports? Are people gonna stay as part of what like, it is like an absolute shitbox of unintended consequences that flow out from any kind of discussions about this.
Emma:And it is not about the higher idealism of we should be treated better. It is a gong show of stupidity that will end up in legislative like who's going to make money? Lawyers. Yeah.
Chris:I had a question to ask you, like in practical terms, not philosophically, what would the separation look like in your business? The reality is I can't even imagine it. I don't think it's ever gonna possibly happen. If and and and you know what I find so interesting is the premier's really projected a position. And I I I so associate the premier with the party because to me, what I learned in politics was ultimately the leader there really matters in partisan politics.
Chris:Yeah. But in the sense, she's been communicating very directly to us. Like, the words have been very direct. I want a strong Alberta in Canada. And then yesterday, I will vote for us to stay in Canada.
Chris:So she's essentially said exactly what most of us would wanna say.
Emma:What she wants. Yeah. I do.
Chris:But the actions are completely sometimes the opposite. Like, it doesn't need to go this way then, and the risk of the economic impact it could have from a trade perspective, it's a political risk to their party. So it's- feels like- Fascinating.
Emma:Feels like, you know, the end of the day, she's taken what really is her personal risk and shifted that to us as a province and made it a provincial risk.
Chris:I think that's the thing that the most logical people who understand politics will track and that's going to be probably why it's as offensive as it is, I think, but we'll find out. I think there is a theory and I think, you know, I don't want to say, you know, how I understand this theory, but there is a theory that is in the real world that this is all strategic to finally once and for all get the Albertans to speak so she has the kind of permission to come to the center. Listen, that's like you and I both know politics is filled with strategy and theory and mysticism and lies, So you don't know what's true, what's real, what's not. You can only judge a person by their actions. We have this really great opportunity as an Albert as Albert, I just think that as an optimist, I'm like, there is so much opportunity here because energy will provide us for sure right now in this backdrop.
Chris:Energy is, is, you know, this is not a safe world. The markets are different.
Emma:It's going, it's only going up.
Chris:Yeah. But the one thing that will persist in a global, export tariff trade market is oil. We've seen it. Like all of the rules get changed when a country's lights are going go off. Right?
Chris:And, and you know, now they're, they're trading in Bitcoin to buy and ship access. Like the world needs energy or the world stops. And so Alberta will be fine. And, and, but will Alberta be the great thing it could be? And to me it feels like to do that, you've got to be less insular.
Chris:You just, I think you have to. And so I, I, politically as a strategy, find it fascinating. I am concerned about it as a business owner and all that stuff. I just, I wanted to talk some politics. If we didn't touch politics today, I would have been disappointed, maybe no one else would have, but because you have a fierceness in your expression of opinions that's rare.
Chris:I did too for a while and I found it wasn't serving me very well. There's only a downside to it, but yet it's probably the most important conversation we need to have. Sorry.
Emma:Yeah, don't get into it much these days. The Alberta part, I think, is a real risk. It's a different level of risk than on any particular single issue.
Chris:Yeah. Well, this has been a great conversation. I'd like to kind of finish on something that's been a bit of a constant theme in the conversations that I've had in this kind of experiment. It just so happens every, you know, everyone I've talked to is is in the position where they have kids and some of them, most of them are at least the conversation's been about those kids that are kinda in that, you know, age range where your kids are. You know, it's a that's all opportunity in front of them, meaning they're they're young adults and and, you know, but so, you know, to position this, like, they're kinda coming into a world that no one could prepare them for, like AI rewriting work.
Chris:So social media is definitely attacking a definition of identity. The economy that's not really rewarding people the way it used to because of things like inflation. So as a mom watching them, and then, you know, as an entrepreneur who's kind of fighting the same you're in the exact same battle, but for your on behalf or for your company or your idea, what do you actually tell them? And then what do you keep to yourself? Like, what what I mean?
Chris:Like, what's the advice you just feel like you have to convey to them? And what do you just have to avoid telling them?
Emma:What I try to tell them is that there are Expect nothing. That there is nothing that exists today in terms of the job market or what is out there that you can expect to exist tomorrow or at some point in time. And so you have to stay totally flexible and able to pivot and that you have to, I think personal agency is probably the biggest, going to be the biggest thing. It's if you have an expectation that someone will give you a job, you need to get rid of that expectation, and you need to be able to build yourself a job, and you need to understand that there is nothing out there that you can't do, and that if you just go and do something and stop waiting for permission from anybody, there is no one here who's going to give you permission to go do something. You have to just go do it, And if it seems absurd and ridiculous, you will find like, use like, if AI is gonna disrupt, use it as the tool to make you give you what you need in order to, like, take that next step.
Emma:Step into it and do more instead of less, and understand that, like, waiting for somebody or following some path that has been, you know, somebody else has been on is not it's not the path forward. And I don't think I actually keep much to myself from them, because I am scared about it, and I'm learning about it. Mean, you know, want what my ultimate goals would be, would be to be able to help my kids start whatever business that they want to start, right, and to be able to, or engage in whatever activity that they want to engage in, or create whatever that they want to create and give them, help them, give them the tools to do that, and then be able to, like, give them the have them trust that they can do this. That's, like, the biggest thing.
Chris:Would you wish an entrepreneur life and lifestyle on your kids?
Emma:Maybe. I think there's a certain degree of control that you feel like you can have. On the other hand, there's a level of stress that comes with it, but I think there's also different ways to do that. Right? Like, I don't know if it's the way that I've done it is the way that I would want them to do it.
Emma:I think maybe it's even a smaller scale entrepreneurialism, right? Like maybe, you know, I have a bunch of chickens here. Like maybe it's a maybe someone wants to become a farmer. Maybe somebody wants to, you know I don't know what that is. If you want to become a craftsperson and really dedicate yourself to that, do it.
Emma:There will be value in these things, right? I think there is going to be this intrinsic value in stuff that is about, you know, that is handcrafted, that is, you know, imbued with humanity in a way that other things are not. So, you know, make things with your hands. I find that actually I need to, in my own personal life, I need to balance out. I feel like I have to balance out every hour that I'm in the AI world with like, you know, holding a baby chicken in my hand.
Chris:Yeah. And then, you know, that balance has been talked about for generations, I'm sure. And I have been probably the worst performers in that conversation. I mean, I literally are going to bed at like two in the morning trying to, you know, pull keep pulling on this AI thread that and AgenTik changed everything because now I could actualize ideas, and that's a totally different thing for an entrepreneur. Now there's almost no restrictions.
Chris:If you're in an college economy, there's no restrictions. You could you could if you committed yourself for a week, you could build a billion dollar idea. You the problem is everybody's trying to do it at the same time, and and and so the the the percentage of ideas that escape are going to be far, far, far dramatically lower in terms of you you just have to catch something and it it's either gonna be a product feature, like you say, that's usually and should be what it is, but sometimes there's also just a social thing that catches something catches Or
Emma:it's something that's super niche. Right?
Chris:And, Yeah. Well, and that's a design intent that, you know, I believe in for sure. That, it's, it's, it's a fascinating conversation. We could talk for hours. There's no doubt there's all kinds of things we didn't get to talk about, but congratulations on your success.
Chris:It's been fascinating to watch, and I would say mostly because I'm familiar with the headwinds and the punches from the side and all the craziness that's happened that most businesses haven't had to experience. And to watch your resiliency and tenacity through it is kind of inspiring. And, you know, so congratulations on that, and of course I believe in the product. You for coming on today.
Emma:Thank you, Chris. Nice to chat.