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In this episode of The Wine Centric Show, we chat with Dan Petroski, the revered winemaker behind Massican Wines in Napa Valley. Dan shares his journey from playing football at Columbia to becoming a winemaking iconoclast. We delve into his unique approach to crafting the only all-white wine winery in Napa Valley, his experiences with the wine industry, and how his football background shapes his work ethic. Dan also talks about the challenges of scaling a winery, the impact of environmental changes on viticulture, and his ambitious plans for Massican Wines under the Gallo family. Whether you're an oenophile or new to wine, this conversation will give you insightful and relatable perspectives on the wine world. Tune in for an engaging dialogue about passion, practicality, and pushing the boundaries in winemaking.
00:00 Welcome to the Wine Centric Show
00:52 Dan's Football Journey
02:57 Starting a White Wine Winery in Napa Valley
06:33 The Business of Winemaking
09:50 BBQ and Bubbly Event
12:03 Meeting Joe Gallo
21:22 Wine Culture: Europe vs. America
28:17 Exploring Aromatized Beverages
28:48 The Water Movement and Market Potential
29:54 Challenges in the Wine Industry
30:39 Innovative Ideas and Business Strategies
31:35 The Appeal of Italian Wines
38:20 Climate Change and Wine Production
47:15 Personal Reflections and Family Impact
49:43 Wine and Publishing: A Unique Connection
Creators and Guests
Guest
What is The Wine Centric Show?
🎙 Bringing wine stories, tips, and expert interviews to everyday wine lovers. 🍷
15 Wine Centric - Dan Petroski
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[00:00:00]
Matt Weiss: Hello and welcome to the Wine Centric Show where we talk to the titans of the wine industry, but make it all simple and relatable to everybody so you actually understand what we're talking about today. This man is not only a titan.
He is an iconoclast. That's right. You're shaking your head, but don't do it. He is the winemaker for Masson Wines out there in the Napa Valley. This man is the real deal. He is Dan the man. Petrosky.
Dan Petroski: Thanks, Matt. Um, you said it, I didn't. I'm just here to, you know, have a great conversation and make some fun wines that people love to drink. So I, I don't try to put any, any designation upon myself except for winemaker.
Matt Weiss: Well, I'll, I'll make the designation. Um, by the way, we're gonna talk a lot about wine and stuff like that, but really why I wanted you here that I'm more [00:01:00] interested in is, um, what position did you play at football when you played for Columbia?
Dan Petroski: I was a guard, but, um, sophomore year started on, and I started at the right tackle. Guard went down, they shifted me over to guard center, went down, they shifted me over to center. Plus I was the long snapper, so I basically played every line, every position on the offensive line. And so I settled in at Guard.
Matt Weiss: Did you love it? Did you miss it? Did you play all four years?
Dan Petroski: Yeah, all four years. It was, a, as every former athlete of a c at a collegiate level or a professional level will say teamwork is just imbued within you. Understanding that there are 11 in, in a case of football's, 11 parts that have to work together, that are all accountable to each other, that are responsible to each other. I think the accountability. To a a, a a, a contained goal amongst a group of people is really important and it's formed everything I do. Unfortunately with Moscon 15 years, I [00:02:00] was only accountable to myself because
I was a, you know, solo practitioner, solo winemaker. And, um, so I, I set myself really high standards.
Now I have a, a huge team around me that kind of rely on me to be this, you know, be who I was in creating Moscon, be who I am in a Napa Valley community figure. Um, and just try to have a lot of fun while
doing
Matt Weiss: you sure do.
Dan Petroski: But now I have accountability and responsibility. Yeah, it's fun. It's, it's, look, I, I haven't worked a day in 18 years, so I'm really proud.
I'm really proud that I can say that.
Matt Weiss: And look at you using the sports cliches already. Um, la last question about football and then we'll move on. What was your 40 time?
Dan Petroski: Ah, 4, 9, 8.
Matt Weiss: Alright, under five.
Dan Petroski: Yeah. For a fat guy in the offensive line at six one. That's not bad.
Matt Weiss: That's not bad at all. Pulling guard. Get out on those tweets.
Dan Petroski: not today.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: you can't roll me down a hill, I won't get to 4, 9, 8.
Matt Weiss: That's all right. You're cleaning barrels. So, um, hey Dan, [00:03:00] I know you know this, but I'm just gonna spell it out, what an iconoclast means. I don't know if you've looked at the definition, but it's a person who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions. And let's just say like, that sounds somewhat negative, but I look at it as like somebody who's pushing against the social norms.
You started a winery in Napa Valley, like you're saying, Masson that makes only white wines, and you did it ironically while you were making Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon for Lark Mead. Um, I know why you did it, or I think I have a good idea, but tell the people who are listening, what was your impetus for starting this winery?
Dan Petroski: My evidence was simple. It was this community here from a temperature and climactic. Space. It's very Mediterranean and I had the good fortune of living in the Mediterranean for a year and drinking a lot of Mediterranean style white wines. They happened to be Italian 'cause I was living in Italy and when I came back to America and I realized when I did my deep [00:04:00] dive into the California Grape Crush report, seeing all these Mediterranean varieties that were brought over by immigrants for a hundred years plus, and some of 'em still existed today. And I was like, wow, I can be drinking. The wines that I was drinking a year ago, or two years ago, three years ago when I was living in Italy, here in the Napa Valley, they could be growing here in the Napa Valley and Sonoma County and Lodi. And they were, you know, everything old is new again. know, my toka ano for my flagship Ono wine was planted in 1946 in Charles Valley by the Nickol family.
I mean, what's new California about that? That's the whole California. So for me, that was one thing. Um, yeah, and it bucked a little bit of a trend here. Especially if you consider, but the idea of a white wine only winery is not abnormal. I mean, we have that all over Burgundy in Chablis or so we have that in the Lair Valley. Um, so, so I just said to myself as I have to set a bar for who I wanted to be and how I wanted to be remembered as a winemaker was, what am I gonna be remembered [00:05:00] as? You're only gonna be famous for one thing, right? So I said. I wanna be famous as a white wine maker. I want to be etched into the tombstone next to the guys like Didier Dau and Jean Mark Perlo and all the, and coach and all these great white wine wineries that we adored.
We look up to, we put on shelves, we kind of like run to, if we have an opportunity to taste amongst a group of friends. Um, and that's. Kind of the bar I set for myself was, I'm not gonna compete against 1,711 wineries in Napa Valley making Cabernet Sauvignon. Could I do it? Could I, could I relish the competition? Could I relish the challenge? Of course, I would have fun, but it would also be incredibly, incredibly taxing. Um, so I don't have to, I don't have to kind of fit to a norm. I don't have to fit to a schedule. I, you know, I make. delicious, easy, transparent, and hopefully, um, somewhat affordable wines in the Napa [00:06:00] Valley and Sonoma County.
Matt Weiss: You, and this is how your brain works. Just to give an insight or I think I'm thinking how your brain works is you did it in a very practical way. You almost reverse engineered it where you knew you were making Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon and you said, well, look at the economics of this.
I, as a startup business person, can't afford to wait five, six years to make revenue on my product, so I'm gonna figure out a different way and, and white wine, you can scale. A lot quicker. And that was not only your passion, but part of your business plan. So it made sense on two streams.
Dan Petroski: I just had a 20 year reunion with my my business school buddies. Again, I, I didn't go to enology school. I didn't go to Viticultural school. I went to business school,
Matt Weiss: Yeah. NYU baby.
Dan Petroski: Yes, sir. Um, did all my, all my education in, in Manhattan. Um, so I, I wrote, I wrote a Cabernet business plan because when I was at Larkin, I had the really good fortune of being a small team, and we all were Jack, Jack of all trades. cliche, I've [00:07:00] dropped like five of 'em already in 10 minutes. I know we'll get into some bull dorm shit in a bit. Um,
Matt Weiss: I am in North Carolina, so that's perfect. Reference.
Dan Petroski: We had the opportunity to like work in the tasting room on a Saturday. We had the opportunity to kind of be at events that we hosted. We got to sit in, in all the meetings, talk to each other, come up with ideas and plans, and then so, but I really needed to wrap my head around the economics and I did, and I wrote a business plan about cabernet and I was just shocked at how capital intensive it was. So I sent it to my, my. of different school friends, the guys who I sat at the table with last week and, and, and they were like, this is not a good idea. And then I, you know, started looking at the white wine side of it and then I sent it back and of the guys who's an Italian said, let's make wine. And I was like, sure. And I, I think we both. a little over our skis of thinking how successful it'd be, how soon. [00:08:00] Um, and it took a long time to grow that success, but it was very metered. I, I dialed everything back to being a, you know, a, um, a demand based product. I couldn't go into harvest in August and September and October knowing that I had pallets and wine sitting in the barn not being sold. So I had to basically,
Matt Weiss: You mean harvest for Lark Meat at that time while,
Dan Petroski: I mean, my harvest, you know, doing white wines early in the season to finishing a red wine grape harvest, I would go about 80 to 90 straight days in a row. Um, but I'd start with starting early August with whites and not finish until, you know, November you know, the fermentations of the red wines. So for me it was, um. I couldn't ha, I couldn't be distracted when I was making wine by knowing. making wine, but I haven't sold the other wine. I, so it was always about keeping the quantities small. It wasn't a scarcity model. It [00:09:00] wasn't, no, we don't have any to sell. It was, this is all I can do. that went from 400 cases to 500 cases to a thousand cases to 2000 cases to 3000 cases.
And it went slowly up the ladder to, that, you know, that faithful. The night when I met Joe Gallo and we sat down and chatted and had a drink and talked about how cool it was to be, you know, white wine, only wine winery and how he was cheering me on, rooting me on. And then the next conversation we had, he said, you know, his classic line is how can I help you?
And that was it.
Matt Weiss: Let's pause there and we're gonna get into your meeting with Joe Gallo in a second. Um, 'cause you mentioned something that feels very. Near and dear to me right now. And that's the fact of being stretched with multiple jobs and, and projects. And Dan, I actually want to tell you about this project that I'm doing. It's called BBQ and Bubbly. And so I get 10 of like my favorite chefs and pit masters together at Fenton, which is, I [00:10:00] don't know, I know you've been to North Carolina, but it's in Cary and it's this new multi-use facility. It's an epic location. And so those 10 chefs are gonna make their best favorite barbecue dish.
And then I pair it. With 20 different sparkling wines from around the world. So we're talking champagne, kava, Prosecco, this whole thing. Um, and it's just an amazing event. And I have great partners at Kerry Magazine and Wake Living to help me spread the word and the Raleigh Wine Shop in Luella Durham, who you probably know as well.
They're my retail partners in it. Thank you to them. They're helping me select the wines and doing all that. It is an amazing event. It's on May 31st if you can come. I might be able to help you out there. I would love to have you,
Dan Petroski: I'll throw Mascon in a soda stream to be a part of that one.
Matt Weiss: hey, why not? Why not? Anyway, to get tickets, it's Bitly link. It's BT ly slash bbq. Bubbly. That's bitly slash bbq [00:11:00] bubbly. You should get your tickets now. It's on May 31st. Um, and then lastly, I don't know if you could see this over my my, what's my right shoulder, but there's a coffee there. It's from Carbo Coffee Roasters.
They're out here in Chapel Hill. But I'm doing, I did a collaboration with them. Um, and it's this, they do single origin coffee. So this one is out of Peru. It's by a farmer named Edith Meza. Um, very much I feel like, um. Iconoclastic like you are, they push the envelope on what they can do. They do a natural process with their coffee Anyway, check out Car Carbo Coffee Roasters.
You just Google them. You can find it on there. And actually I'm gonna send you a bag so that you'll have it, assuming that you're a coffee drinker.
Dan Petroski: My, my wife and I, we have seven, eight coffee machines,
Matt Weiss: That's amazing. Yeah. The best way is to.
Dan Petroski: eight different ways to
make a coffee in, in in this house.
Matt Weiss: I love it. All right. Um, [00:12:00] so you brought it up, so let's go right there. In, you know, it's funny, I don't remember if it's 2017 or 2018, but all these things happened. In 2017. You were named by the San Francisco Chronicle, the winemaker of the year for this country in the same time. And I think this is part and parcel to what happened.
You were riding in a car with me sometime that year. I dunno if you remember that. We worked with chef Ricky, Ricky Moore to do this great event at the wine feed in Durham and, and I was asking you all these questions. By the way, I've said this on a previous podcast, you are the best ride with I've ever had.
For those people that are eliciting a ride with, when you're in the wine sales people that you might never know, they come in your car for a day and you go and you pimp the juice and they help you tell the stories and do all these things. You were by far the best. And I mean that sincere. Lisa, thank you.
We sold a lot of wine and had a lot of fun. Um,
Dan Petroski: we did,
Matt Weiss: I think that was like. [00:13:00] I might have my time, right, but right about the time. You might have had this meeting and were talking in the works to Gallo.
Dan Petroski: you know, ga, the gallo was, for the post pandemic.
Matt Weiss: Okay. It was post pandemic. Okay.
Just throw out my whole theory, Dan. That's fine.
Dan Petroski: um, I, I always had a vision, you know, as I was, as I was. Mascon was built on these five year increments. And so I reevaluated the business every five years. So at that point in time, we would've been, you know, get, I would be thinking about my next five year plan.
'cause I was in year three of the second segment, second tranche. um, at that time. So I was thinking about that and I always had this little funny you know, when you try to simplify your life, the way for me to do it is through numbers and through bell curves and through pie charts. And so I built a spreadsheet and I said there were two outcomes. There were two inputs and two outcomes based on the, the nuts and bolts of the spreadsheet. It was quit my day job, [00:14:00] to LVMH, you know, 'cause at the time LVMH and even to this day, it was still expanding. Its it was expanding. Its. You know, kind of global luxury portfolio of Yeah, LVMH is the Hennessy big wine company who makes also a, a Dom Perignon and big champagne house as well. Yeah.
So I was like, you know, that would be the pinnacle of this, you know, for Mascon to be the, you know, the Cloudy Bay of America. And so, but it was funny when I had that, that spreadsheet there, those two numbers were almost identical. I could quit my day job, live alone on Mosson, and support me and my family. I could sell the company and retire. Um, Wait, so how are those numbers? How are those numbers the same?
They were the same because they were how much money I would've made to pay myself versus
how much I would've got paid
and never had to work because that money would've just been an annual doll.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: so that was kind of always. Out there as this kind of, you know, moonshot and, I [00:15:00] didn't, you know, and in 2021 I realized there's no way to really make those numbers work unless I was focusing full time growing mascon at a rapid rate. So I was at 7,500 K in wine, very minuscule. Um, I had plans to get to 10,000 cases, and in between that time of 70 510,000, between 2022. In 2023 is when I met Joe Gallo and it was boom, boom, boom, very fast. We hit it off. He's an infectious laugh and just had a good time. Um, I, I praised him for all the things the Gallo family has done for the wine industry that no one talks about, whether it be environmental stewardship or, or bringing, you know, affordable wine to the people and. just loved, you know, the energy that I was bringing towards the white wine space. And and he felt that there was an, you know, there was an opportunity, there was a movement coming, a white wine movement. People, people were gonna drink lighter, they're gonna drink brighter, they're gonna drink fresher, they're gonna drink lower alcohol, they're gonna drink, um, you know, a pet TiVo happy hour [00:16:00] culture was shifting.
You know, it was going from Reds to, I just saw an article right before I jumped online about like, oh, the. of the moment is tillable reds. Like we seem to have a wine of the moment, whether it's orange wine or natural wine, or now tillable reds or you know, what's next. So I think, I think the wine that's always been there is and has slowly been in, in increasing its its breath is white wine and Gallo saw that and Joe saw that and what I was doing with Maicon, and we made that a very quick. It was great. 'cause Mascon was completely virtual. We didn't own land, we didn't own a vineyard, we didn't own a winery. Um, so we basically just buying the concept and, you know, giving me the keys to the Ferrari in order to in order for us to kind of like reach a, a, a, a collective destination, which is more wine, more affordable when you find it,
Matt Weiss: How many cases do you.
Dan Petroski: we just bottled our 2024 vintage and that was just under 13,000. So literally just under [00:17:00] 13,000. And we're on. That's our plan. Like we went from 10 to 13, 20 25. I'm in vineyards now, sourcing to get us to 15,000 cases. Not big jumps. It's a 10 year plan. Um, if we achieve the 10 year goal, it'd be a very successful company. Um, and that number's not big. 50,000 cases. Do I want it to be 250,000 cases for sure. I would love for us to really have an impact. A real true impact in the world. and that would get me to this, you know, 50,000 cases, I be etched into the, the stone of of the pantheon of great white wine makers, maybe at 250,000 cases of high quality, affordable wine that people love.
That's in three Michelin star restaurants. It's also in, you know, kind of your, your, your local, um, family restaurant. That's, that's all I can ask for right now.
Matt Weiss: I love that you take this honest approach a passionate winemaking approach with a practical business approach of where [00:18:00] you get to, because I think in this day and age, it's like people shy away from, especially in the wine business or the food business, like a passion project of like, oh yes, I also want to make money and have a lifestyle, and that's okay.
Um, but. For people who are listening and who are not industry insiders, they might not know, but Gallo has a connotation amongst the wine set and. In the outset, building Masson, working at Lark Mead. Um, I said Ocon, iconoclast, you could use icon. You are thought of. You've written in the book The New California J by John Bonnet, as I said, winemaker of the year, San Francisco Chronicle.
You're building this, this tombstone epithet, epithet, um, about who you are and, and you're gonna be, and Gallo is a large company. Great. There's greatness to them, no doubt about it. But I. Perceived, at least as a, as a large company. Do you ever think about or worry about the optics or did that enter into your decision [00:19:00] at all?
Dan Petroski: No, no. I mean, I'm fortunate to, to live in the space with the Gallo family calls the luxury division. Um, luxury and division includes a lot of wines imported from Italy. Wines that I personally drink, like pure pan and yurman and ar ano like, so I was like, I always said to myself when I was thinking about with distributors and, and portfolios going and standing, who am I gonna be standing next to Pouring wine at the table? Is that gonna bring me up or bring me down? the division I'm with with Gallo is lifting me up. that to me is incredible
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: Yerman created the icon, the idea of FLI in America.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: freely and inspired white wine. so I, to be able to like, to stand side by side, shoulder to shoulder, have my wines in the same portfolio, that's, that's, that's meaningful to me.
And that's you know, it's, it's, I guess you could say it's like being a free agent, right? Like what team do you wanna play for?
Matt Weiss: that's a great [00:20:00] analogy. It's like you went to the Yankees.
Yeah.
Dan Petroski: they've been doing it for 90 years, you know, it's like of every four or five bottles of wines consumed in America is, is a product of their hands
Matt Weiss: Is that right? One out of every five bottles.
Dan Petroski: yeah.
Matt Weiss: That's crazy.
Dan Petroski: the thing that for me is like, I, like I said, I talked to pie charts or bell curves, like the bell curve of wine. It's like they're supplying everyone with wine here. Napa Valley, Sonoma County, France, Italy all the wine, like down on this small slope. 5, 10, 15, 20% of the people where 80% of the people need to drink something. And if they were all drinking Mosson or DOA or Dano, we wouldn't be drinking that stuff.
You know, they wouldn't be available. 'cause these are, 'cause what, what, what? The gala with the Gallup division of of. Of commercial wines is doing, is providing, putting wine on tables at affordable prices for people who may not really care about wine. there's a floppy, a lot of people in there who can afford expensive wines, who care a shit ton about wine, but [00:21:00] don't have the, the bandwidth, as we said, the, talk about that earlier.
The bandwidth to actually be a wine geek and explore, the wine world is, is fracturing in a, in a million pieces, it's also, it gives every person the ability I. To connect to what they want to connect to as opposed to just connecting to a singular thing.
Matt Weiss: This is a great topic, and by the way, in our effort, because I know you feel this way too, to make this relatable so that anybody who has an inkling that they like wine can understand. You're mentioning some of the most iconic wine makers that have ever done it.
Sean, mark Ruo an amazing burgundy producer. You've mentioned a couple of times, Didier Dau a Lair Valley White wine producer, one of the. Foremost thought leaders of Chenin Blanc and biodynamic farming to ever have done it. I mean, he's definitely on the Rush Mount Rushmore, right? For that. And and, and then Dovi sat, which is the flagship or North [00:22:00] star of Shali making.
So
Dan Petroski: you said Shannon Blanc. It's seven in Blanc.
Matt Weiss: sorry, seven year.
Dan Petroski: That's okay.
Matt Weiss: Wait, but doesn't he make like or didn't they make like some Roche Moin or, um, seven year? No, never. Why did I have that wrong? Okay. I stand corrected. Thank you, Dan. Um,
Dan Petroski: that, Joe.
Matt Weiss: yeah.
Dan Petroski: Hey, look, you can't, look, this is my excuse with chat, GPT. Everyone says, oh, it's wrong all the time. I'm like, you, Matt, you're, you're a fountain of wine knowledge. And if you say one thing wrong, I'm I, I give you a pass. Just like with like this AI influence, it's like
Matt Weiss: Sure.
Dan Petroski: to, I love talking to AI because it's like talking to a librarian who's read every book in the library.
Matt Weiss: Totally. get a couple of things wrong, you know? And that's the great thing. It's like, you know, I'm gonna give you shit for the rest of your life that you thought Dano made Shana Blanc while we're
You've been dead for like 20 years already. Gimme a break.
[00:23:00] And that's true. And I, yeah, we, we know it all and I've probably, or you've probably forgotten more about wine than most people know. So, um, but here's the thing, right? You, you've said this, you like, if people could drink more, drink better, drink more, you know, and, and I know I've heard you talk about this idea of European wine culture versus American in Europe, it's on the table every meal, or at least lunch and dinner, it's just there.
You've done this, you lived this experience in America, in the us it's a luxury item. How can, why can't we have both? Like why can't it be always on the table and non-intimidating? Just like your house white, right? Like guess what people, I don't care if you drink bag in a box. What? I like you to drink better bag in a box.
'cause there's good wines in bag, in a box. Yes. 'cause guess what? You pay a lot for glass and cork. You know that. Um. But like, why can't we have that on the table? And then on other occasions, or if we're doing a, you know, not, it doesn't have to be a special occasion, [00:24:00] but if we're pairing certain dishes or whatever, then we break out the masson, you know Toka, Triano or whatever it is.
Dan Petroski: I agree with you a hundred percent. Um, but the, the most relatable thing across the ocean is beer. Americans look at beer the way Europeans look at wine. American beer cost is similar to European wine cost. You can buy a half a liter of wine for three euro, or you can buy. You know, a six pack of beer for five bucks. Like, you know, like there, it, it's, that was, we built, this country was built on, on beer. I always talk about the agricultural concept of it. Like post World War ii, we were manufacturing an agricultural kind of startup,
it was our industrial and agro revolution. ii, as you know, the GIS came back home and we became, you know, investing in, in the future. And the new, in the the New Deal. The folks in [00:25:00] in Europe have been working in agriculture. 45% of like the EU budget is agriculture. Um, they work outside in the fields in hot days, they come home. They want to drink something cold and light and bright and refreshing. manufacturers, our farm workers came home and wanted to drink something cold and light and refreshing and happened to be beer. It was the Miller family, the Coors family, the Bush family, all those folks created this that was low alcohol, that was affordable, that was for the people, and that's. That's how we spent four generation or 40 decades drinking tons and tons of beer, and we still do beer, outpaces, wine and spirit. It's like two to one, you know, in total consumption because it's affordable and it's light, it's bright, it's cold, it's tillable, it's bubbly. Like all the things that we, we talk about wine in those ways, but then we then we're imposed upon by this large format bottle. Told that once we pulled the cork, you have to drink the whole thing. [00:26:00] How do you serve it? You need a special glass for it. You can't drink it out of a bottle. Like you could drink a beer out of a can or a bottle. Like there's all these things that we've imposed upon ourselves to capture this tradition that was, the Europeans had for 200 plus years. figured it out already.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: we didn't, we haven't done that. We've only been doing this for 50, 60 years, like we've been making wine in America for over a hundred years. But the reality of it is, it's less than a hundred years post pro post prohibition at this point.
and we haven't figured out how beer took the place. For, for the, for the, for the everyday consumer before wine did, it still does.
Matt Weiss: I also think though we've done the same thing to beer in a way. I mean, look at all the micro breweries and you know, anytime I talk to people who are in the business, who are, you know, in retail or even in restaurants, they're saying that the beer snobs are worse than the wine snobs. I.
Dan Petroski: I haven't been,
confronted with a beer snob, but I do like some fancy beers.
Matt Weiss: You were making beer at [00:27:00] one point
Dan Petroski: yeah, in South Carolina.
Matt Weiss: you stopped though.
Dan Petroski: Yeah. Yeah. I stopped,
I stopped, we did, our last beer was during the pandemic. it was 2020 and we made a pilsner called Crush. And literally I was like down Highway 29, dropping a, a, a flat of, you know, pilsner off to all my friends at all the wineries and people to drink it at the end of the day after a long day of harvest.
So it was fun.
Matt Weiss: Do you think you'll ever get back to making that, or, as we talked about on a previous show, the vermouth.
Dan Petroski: I truly wish will have that opportunity once again. Um, you know, my focus right now is to make as much affordable white wine as I can and build momentum. I. and I think that's where we're going right now. We're
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: over a year into it. We're building momentum and once we kind of get that ball rolling
where it would be hard to stop, then we can start adding some things back onto the program.
Because, you know, in 20 17, 20 18 when, you know, I [00:28:00] was talking to you, I was going through this rebrand and a lot of my big rebrand and you mentioned coffee earlier. big rebrand at the time was, I want to own the aromatic space. And what I mean by that is, you know, Maicon gets. Pigeonholed into a, a portion of the wine list.
It's called Aromatic White Wines.
Matt Weiss: Mm-hmm.
Dan Petroski: I made vermouth. Vermouth is an aromatized white wine. My beer was a Belgian wheat beer, which was an aromatized wheat beer. What's, what's an aromatized spirit Gin? I. It's one of my favorite beverages. Um, and then you, then you start thinking about coffee and water, and you start thinking about tea. Tea is an aromatized, macerated, you know, environment with tannin and structure. Little less white wine characteristic. Um, coffee, obviously not necessarily a white wine character, but coffee has acid, you know, like, so thinking about these things. And then, and then look where we are today in the water movement, right?
Like the canned water movement, the
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: waters with flavors and so forth. Those aromatized flavor flavored waters, poppy [00:29:00] selling the PepsiCo for 5 billion. Like, and I thought, and I, the way I structured it was like, what do you drink on the regular? You drink water more than once a day. You drink coffee maybe once or, and tea maybe once a day or more. You drink beer maybe four times a week. Wine maybe two times a week. Spirits one time a week. So. Make the thing that is consumed the most, that is scalable. You know, the, if I could buy one company in the world right now, it'd be San Pellegrino and Aqua from Nestle. a $25 billion company, a water company, billion. It's huge because
people drink water every day,
you know, and that's like, that's, it's a
nece. Water is a necessity. Wine is not.
Matt Weiss: Mm-hmm.
Dan Petroski: Alcohol is not. So you have to think about the things that,
people need in their life and then you provide them with the layers of luxury, you know, from commercial to premium to luxury. And I think, and the wine industry has, is doing that right now, wine industry. It [00:30:00] has a lot of things go, a lot of baggage to go that goes with it. You know, name for one, you know, thing. You know,
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: it's just, it's a simple thing. It's like you have to introduce this process to someone. Um, and, you know, why are there so many, why are there so many videos on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube on how to open bottles of wine, how to decant bottles of wine, how to teach people how, if you have, if you're. Alcoholic beverage product comes with operating instructions. not necessarily convenient, you know what I mean?
Matt Weiss: yes. Like versus the beer.
Dan Petroski: Yeah. open it. Um, okay. I have two ideas for you. You've probably already thought of them. I think you need to start an Instagram page or a website called Dan Aroma. Dan Aroma, okay. That can start your aromatic company. Um, what a brilliant pivot. I mean, you have the resources. Do you talk to Joe Gallo start, [00:31:00] or do they, do they not have a water company?
Matt Weiss: Does Gallo not own or sell a water?
Dan Petroski: I don't think so. All right, Dan, we
they're an alcoholic
Matt Weiss: exit plan.
Dan Petroski: You know, they took their first, after 90 years, they took their first step into beer, and what they did is they went, they didn't go to premium beer, they went to Uck, which was, you know, the, the kind of the 50 cent, 15 cents or whatever, 25 cents cheaper than like a PBR.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: they kept with their ethos of, we want to be the most accessible and affordable company in the world,
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: they're proud of it it's working.
Matt Weiss: By the way, you mentioned Puron, the o early that is a Suave, which is the Garga Ganaga grape, um, coming out of the Veto of Italy. That and its competitor I tasted, I think I tasted them on the same day. Suave pr, PRA, um, was the first. Time, and this goes back to your notion about drinking [00:32:00] white wine.
People always ask me, oh, what do you drink? What do you like? And they're always amazed by, I I say I drink probably 85 to 90% white wine, and red wine is 10%
Dan Petroski: Mm-hmm.
Matt Weiss: for a lot of the reasons you were talking about. But Suave was the first white wine I tasted when I was working at Beco in New York City in the theater district.
Dan Petroski: Yeah, it made me say, oh, oh. I was like, I was in,
I was just in theater district,
back in, so it was,
Joe Allen's and Beco across the street from
Matt Weiss: That's right.
Dan Petroski: 46th or 47th. Yeah.
Matt Weiss: 46 between eighth and ninth. Give them a plug. If you're going to the theater, they still do. When I was working there, it was like a $20 wine list. I think now it's like a $35 wine list for like all these great Italian wines, $35 a bottle in the New York City Theater District. And they had a deal.
It was like 20 bucks. All the pasta you could eat and they would come make the pasta, homemade [00:33:00] pasta tableside, and serve it to you. And then you get, we used to call it a Yiddish, a cinta portion, a very big portion if you ordered chicken or beef or whatever. Good stuff.
Dan Petroski: it's so funny you mentioned it. Um, I'm definitely an, a nostalgic,
creature, and I was just getting in this conversation the other day about with an Italian friend who's a, a, a sommelier wine director here in Napa about, um, about Gavi. I was like, remember when Gavi in the eighties, like Suave and Gavi were, were the thing, they were like the, the advertisements of like, you know.
The dreams are made of. It's like they're fun to say they're great and easy to drink. They were like the eighties in a nutshell, in a weird way. To me, growing up in New York, it's like, even though I wasn't in the drinking age, but I remember everyone talking about Gavi and Suave.
Matt Weiss: You're speaking my language. I'm drinking like my house, go-to en Rico. Serafina. Ve agave is an [00:34:00] unbelievable, so I always try to put, like, people tell me, oh, what should I be drinking next? What should I, if you're a Pinot grigio drinker, you drink like typical store bought, although, you know, go to, you're drinking your de Etsy, Pinot Grigio.
It's light, it's crisp, it's lemony. That's about it. Step up. Get yourself some Gavi Agave. It's the Cortese grape. You'll thank me. You'll thank Dan bringing it up.
Dan Petroski: gonna send you, I'm gonna, you send me coffee, I'll send you wine.
Matt Weiss: Okay?
Dan Petroski: when I launched my Pinot Grigio,
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: big move for Mascon was to start a Pinot Grigio wine. And it's, it's a work in progress, Joe Gallo was like, how do you know you're gonna make a good one? It's like, because I'm gonna just. Brand it with the ethos of Mosson. It's not gonna be Pinot Grigio. It's gonna be a blend, but it's still, it'll still fit within the legal compliance of being called 100, you know, Pinot Grigio as a wine, um, it has to be 75% of that gr. And so 2023 first vintage of [00:35:00] Pinot Grigio. Cortez 2024, 19% Cortez. So it gives me, it gives, and so for me it's a story, right?
And like, and people will say, what does a Cortez do? And I, and I can explain to them why I think the Cortez is a great blend and grape variety for this particular wine. And, but it also keeps me, it keeps me honest with like and simplifying saying, Anya is a wine of Italy's Northeast is a wine of Italy's south Inspiration. Pinot Grigio is the wine of Italy's North. So I take the East and the West with the Cortez and the Pinot Grigio and bring them together in the glass. and so I can start to simplify instead of saying, I used to, I used to blend Pinot Grigio with Greco, and it was like, oh, the North and the South, and these two opposites attract, and rah, and like, there's always a good story to tell along the way, but, um, but the, but sometimes it's the simplification of it's better.
But the Cortez man, like I was just like. [00:36:00] Blown away at how, um, how versatile it is, especially as a, as a, as a brand like Maicon that lives and, and breathes blends.
Cortez is just a,
it's an incredible blender.
Matt Weiss: I can't wait. Send it, send it to me. FedEx. I'll pay for the expedited trip. I wanna drink it soon. Um, so, okay. It, that brings me my next question because the one grape that I don't see in your lineup, and maybe they can't do it, but if they can, man, I will buy in with you on this. Where's the FI in Napa Valley?
Dan Petroski: It's there? Okay.
That's good. At Russian River, um, my good friend Chris Boen,
Russian River, he is my Greco Fi Ebola and ano six acres. It's almost like the Mascon State Vineyard. It's like I buy a hundred percent of the fruit from the vineyard. Um, it's small. It's in the 2024 Jamina.
It's fina Greco Fiona Blend 2023. Was Greco Fina [00:37:00] fi blend, but we're talking like four to 6%, really
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: Um, it's the one grape variety that I'm,
I'm on the hunt and gonna be kind of positioning or propositioning, the Gallo Vineyard Organization to see if we can find a place to plant a little bit more fi plant, a little bit more Greco.
Um, just because these are two great varieties as jamina, as as a wine, it's one of the most unique blended white wines I believe made in California today. As it kind of more widely known, we're gonna need more grapes 'cause these grapes are just not available.
Matt Weiss: so. Again to take it back. So these are grapes, angina, Greco Defo or Greco and Fiona, what we're talking about that typically grow in Campana, which is like the, if you look at the Italian boot if you look at the Italian wine map, it looks like a boot.
It's kind of at the shin of the boot and it's very much seaside. Um, and so you were talking about like Mediterranean climate, so you would think that these grape varietals would actually grow well, although I don't know if it's [00:38:00] too hot in Napa for them.
Dan Petroski: not. hot enough.
Matt Weiss: Not, it's not hot enough really.
So it's hotter campan than it, than it is even with the, I mean, I know you're, you have the San Pablo Bay influence, but are you, as clo you're not as close to the ocean in Napa as you are in Campania. I.
Dan Petroski: no. So we, um. So I did a, I did a, I won the board in Napa Grape Growers. I'm the board in Napa Green. I care a lot about the, the way climate is gonna impact this community in the next 40 years. we're seeing it already with some of the catastrophic events like wildfires with you know, atmospheric rivers, with with, um, with heat storms.
I mean, we had a 10 day period here in Napa Valley, in in the heart of harvest. September, 2022, where every day it reached a minimum of 110 degrees
Matt Weiss: Holy cow.
Dan Petroski: in Calistoga it hit 121. 121 is Death Valley temperatures
Matt Weiss: In
September, you're [00:39:00] saying
Dan Petroski: in September.
Matt Weiss: That's bad.
Dan Petroski: these are, these are just the things that we're all dealing with, right?
You know, whether you're in the Gulf, of America, of Mexico, um, and hurricanes or even in the Carolina coast, you guys hearts out to all the folks in North Carolina and Asheville and two years ago.
Matt Weiss: Yep. and this past fall with hurricane Helena.
Dan Petroski: yeah. And, and so. If you look at the band of Mediterranean heat temperature, it goes from all the way from, you know, um, Turkey, all the way through Greece, through Italy, through um, France, through Spain, into Portugal. Like that band is what we consider zinc Winkler, zone five, some of the hottest grape growing regions of the world. And we here in Napa Valley are in Winkler, zone four. Inching our way towards zone five.
Um, inching every year for the next 20 to 30 years, we will be, consistently into [00:40:00] Winker zone five. There's not a lot of great Cabernet Avenue on groan in zone five. So for us, what we need to be thinking about is like, what is the next, what's the 20, 30, 40 year future of Napa Valley wine? What is the future of our red wines here? And that's the last thing I did at LAME was, help install and plant a, a kind of a climate change block where we looked at things like Riga Nationale and Tempranillo and ko, which is from the Campania region of Italy, where you'll
find. Corte,
excuse me, Greco Fina and Fi. Um, but yeah,
I think of that region as super savage. I mean, it, it's volcanic, it's pore soils, it's windy. It's got those nice, you know, north African Wi misre winds coming through. It's hot. it's salty. All those things make those grapes very rugged. And so you need to put 'em in places in California that are, that kind of can resemble a little bit of that ruggedness.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: most of my Greco and Valentina [00:41:00] is planted east in places like Lodi.
Matt Weiss: Okay, so it's, yeah, it's even warmer. Okay. That brings me up to my other question of you're scaling this winery. You're at, I think you said 13,000 cases right now, getting varietals like this out of California, and I'm sure you're, yeah, you're. Like you said, you're not only in Napa Valley. How are you going to scale that?
I mean, I know the Gallo family has resources and they have time to plant, but it, it's gonna take a while to scale that.
Dan Petroski: I'll go back to my, my,
comment a few moments ago about the, the desire to produce a, a Pinot Grigio that could stand shoulder to shoulder with the sand margaritas of the world at the same price where cheaper, um, with, you know, kind of flavor accessibility and deliciousness. And that's my real goal.
Again, I, I think about the 800,000 case. Pinot Grigio consumption of Santa Margarita every year. 800,000 cases, right? Like [00:42:00] I think of what that pie looks like. I'm not gonna grow that pie. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna steal all of that pie. But maybe if we get a sliver of that pie, maybe it's 10%.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: cases, 1% at 8,000 cases.
you know, into this marketplace to prove to the American wine drinker that we can make. The more as exciting white wines in California that people do love when they drink Italian Pinot Grigio. The problem with Italian Pinot Grigio, the problem with Italy is not their problem. It's our problem.
It's really hard to market against Italy Italy is such a romantic and nostalgic view for anyone who's ever been there, and when they come home, they bring home those. kind of deep memories of like the great food, the simplicity of the food, the hospitality, the simplicity of the wine. And they, and they just start to turn towards like, I can't tell you how many people probably come home from Italy and, and just assume they [00:43:00] drank Pinot Grigio if they drank a white wine.
Matt Weiss: Yeah.
Dan Petroski: You know what I mean? And, and It's great to say Santa Margaritas, it's great to say Yeah. It's great to say Gavi a suave you. So it's really hard. And you know, I joke and it's like, why do you think. Pinot Grigio makers call their wines pinot GRI because they're trying to create a, an elevated sense of themselves because it's French and
gr and it's like, so they're trying to distance themselves, differentiate themselves from the Pinot Grigio market. don't want to do that. I wanna lean into it and see if we can, we can win that battle. Um. it's, for me, it's an homage. It's it's an inspiration. It's not a, it's, it's a challenge, but it's not like a competition. It's me doing my best to bring, you know, bring California Pinot Grigio to the forefront.
Matt Weiss: Yeah, you're giving it to the people, making it, it, making it affordable and delicious. Um. You also said, and we talked about this earlier, but when, yeah, you can't compete a lot with the French and in the Italian, even the Spanish because [00:44:00] one farming is subsidized. It's much more of a social socialistic economy.
Um, and on top of that, because there is hundreds of years in the case of burgundy, thousands of years, these estates your biggest cost, the land and the, and the houses, they're paid for centuries ago. So your biggest costs are not there anymore, which, and the marketing is subsidized by the government too, to get out for export and so we'll see.
Well, we'll see now, especially with tariffs going on, you'll be able to Yeah, go ahead.
Dan Petroski: add one thing to that, or two things to that Please. Because I hate, I hate us always screaming here that your European agricultural subsidized, yes, it is.
Matt Weiss: Yeah,
Dan Petroski: European economy is also taxed way more than we are.
Matt Weiss: true.
Dan Petroski: they might be getting subsidies on one hand, but they're getting their money taken out on the other hand. So
there
is this kind of, this pendulum swing of balance where it's not always just like, oh, they're
getting free money to produce. You know, cheap wine. [00:45:00] That's not it. That is true when it's looked at it in one silo, but on the back end of it there, the taxation, 'cause they have subsidized healthcare, et cetera, et cetera, and schooling.
And so it's a, it's, the money's going, the tax money's going else. It's being pulled out
for other things. So I, I just wanna make sure we always footnote that because I don't, I hate when my peers are always just like, we can't make. Inexpensive wines like Europe 'cause they're subsidized. I'm like, do, do, do the research, please.
You know, like,
look into it. It's
not necessarily to talk to your friends in Europe who make wine and, and see what their subsidies really are. Um, because I think that open conversation is, we tend to just like to say stuff in the wine industry. And I'm guilty of this all the time, but I also like to do my research.
I like to read a lot. I like to listen a lot.
Matt Weiss: Fair point, but then, so how does a bottle, to your point in the beginning of somewhat quality wine, we would call it even maybe above table wine, get on the shelves for three to five euro.
Dan Petroski: Going back to your second point, um, the, [00:46:00] was these are generational farmers.
Matt Weiss: Right. to what I said earlier, we've been doing
Dan Petroski: this since postponed BRI in a meaningful way. we've been, I always say that the Napa Valley wine industry started in 1984. Yeah. There was grapes being grown here in 1884. But really, let's be honest, like what is the modern wine making and modern wineries of Napa Valley that in 1984 was kind of that pivotal point. 94 actually, if you think about it. Um, but it's generational farming and it's like, you're right, the land cost. You know, it's, it's been in the family for how many anri generations now?
I can't even count 27. It was like 16 generations, you know, when I first started drinking, you know, Kee from the Anton Norris. So you start thinking about that, like you're, you're hitting the nail in the head. Like this is not, someone comes to Napa Valley and buys a piece of property for, you know, an acre for a million bucks.
How are you ever gonna pay that off when you're getting three tons of the acre cabernet?
Matt Weiss: To use one of your [00:47:00] cliches. You know, it's the old joke in the wine business. How do you make a small fortune in the wine business? You start with a large one, right?
Dan Petroski: Yeah. Yeah,
Matt Weiss: We're getting close to time. I know you have a meeting, so I want to do two quick topics before we get outta here. One sad, one fun.
I don't know if this is sad to you, but I heard you mention on a previous podcast you were on that your father struggled, struggled with alcohol. How badly, how much did that affect you, and especially now being in the wine business or alcohol drinks business?
Dan Petroski: oh my, it, it it impacted my life 'cause my parents split. Mm-hmm.
but it also, was that kind of, that era in the
seventies, eighties, nineties when, um, when terms like, you know, winos were really, like, they were guys who drank a lot of wine. You know, they were alcoholics and, and so it was like that kind of like. Lovable wine of the, you know, that generation, right? Um, but the funniest part of that story is when I told my, my mother and my brother, I was moving to Italy to [00:48:00] quitting my publishing job, and I was kind of on, on an ascend, ascending path, quitting that to move to Italy to go work in wine. And they were like, you know, your father was an alcoholic, right?
He was a wine owner. And they, so they didn't understand, see, they didn't understand. What my love and passion for wine was. And then I had to educate them and I had to like, bring them into, into my world, take them to, to my dinners at my tables and pour them the wines that I was talking about. And then they got a, then they all were able to get a, a general sense of like, you know, okay, we don't really need this intervention right now.
So that was that was it then. And then now they've all been, you know, my family's always just been super supportive and, and vicariously living through my kind of journey you know, for the last 20 years.
Matt Weiss: So do they and do they drink? Ma can wine, do they love? Do they love,
Dan Petroski: ship to New Jersey.
Matt Weiss: oh,
Dan Petroski: both live in New Jersey. Um, but they do, they do. I, I ship. It was great. I was home in Brooklyn and we did a big,
moscon dinner back in October, last year. [00:49:00] Um, at Paulina, one of my favorite places while I'm wearing a hat.
Matt Weiss: Okay.
Dan Petroski: And,
my whole family was there, you know, except my mom who passed.
But, it was great. So my sisters and my father who still maintains relationships with my sisters and his grandkids, and,
Matt Weiss: Does he still drink wine?
Dan Petroski: No, He, stopped. He, you know, he went, he, he went stolen cold Turkey,
had to go into detox and, and, you know, did the whole thing. And so, yeah, he stopped drinking many, many years ago, probably like 30 or four years ago,
Matt Weiss: Well, good for him. And maybe now that's why you can create Dan Aroma, aromatized water so that your dad can drink it. Um, I want to finish with one thing here, a little helpful plug for you as well. Um, you were in publishing. Um, did you have favorite magazines, like I know you work for time or, or newspapers.
If you could name me like your two or your three favorite.
Dan Petroski: oh, yeah. Um, it's, that's really hard. Um, I would have to say. [00:50:00] New York magazine and Esquire. If I had to only pick two.
Matt Weiss: Okay.
Dan Petroski: and which I still subscribe to both. Um,
Matt Weiss: Okay.
Dan Petroski: was a point when working at time was great 'cause she would get a list of all the public. We did 101 magazines or 110 magazines when I was at Time Inc. And you can literally just check the boxes and then when your mail got delivered every day and your box would, you know, weekly would be for the peoples and the sports Illustrated at the times and the monthlys like fortune and um, and stuff. So I would, I would get everything. And there was a point in time where I used to joke, like my mail person hated me.
'cause I'd always give the mail person like. You know, a tip at the end of the year
during the holidays, because I was doing like 30, 40 magazines and, you know, for, you know, even to this day, it's a ritual for me. It's like during harvest you don't have a lot of time to sit down and read or do anything. Now I, I get a lot of podcasts, so it's, I kind of keep up with the magazine culture of news, but I would all my magazines up after and after Harvest.
I would then sort them all by category who, what [00:51:00] magazine, and then I'd literally spend an entire weekend reading. Like 20, 30, 40 magazines
Matt Weiss: love it.
Dan Petroski: to kind of like catch up on those three months. I missed because the hardest,
Matt Weiss: I
love it. Okay, real quick, 'cause I, I like to do this thing where I anthropomorphize or make wine relatable. So I might ask somebody to relate their wine to a celebrity or relate their wine to a piece of music or something like that. So take your favorite publications, the, the New York magazine, Esquire.
You can either. You can either say like, what wine of yours do they remind you of, or, and you can pick any wine in the world. So, or, and you can pick any publication, like if you want to do the New York Times, if you wanna do, um, the the Wall Street Journal you choose.
Dan Petroski: Perfect. Um, it's funny,
we, we joke here at at, at at Mosson that Mosson is the only wine brand who advertises in literary journals. We
Matt Weiss: Okay.
Dan Petroski: been advertising Mosson at Paris Review for the last,
four years. [00:52:00] and 'cause of the whole, just like publishing George Plimpton culture, Paris Review, kind of high liter and just also just a great name, Paris Review based in New York.
Um. Anya named after my mom, Martha Stewart Living.
That would be, that would be that, um, Hyde Chardonnay. Shit, that's a tough one. Um, Hyde Chardonnay would be closer to like an architectural digest.
Matt Weiss: Yes,
Dan Petroski: Savon Blanc would be a little bit more accessible. Um, I think it would probably be, you know, Newark Magazine.
Matt Weiss: you.
Dan Petroski: Jamina, which is,
Greco Fina Fi, which is a little more edgy, a little more punk rock. I would have to, I would've to find something in, in that genre. You know, the good old days of Rolling Stone when when you know, hunter Thompson was writing for them back in the seventies and eighties. Um, and then, [00:53:00] Pinot Riccio.
Pinot Riccio is to me right now, it's probably. It's the, you know, Pinot Gia would've been the People magazine of, of the era of People Magazine when I was working at Time
Matt Weiss: Oh, you're good at.
Dan Petroski: people, people would literally, women would leave work at lunchtime, go home, grab the people magazine on Friday out of their mailbox, and go back to work and read it during their lunch hour. It was like that magazine was probably the most successful publication of all time this period of time between the eighties and nineties and the AU early aughts. Um. Profit profits in the billions like crazy.
Matt Weiss: Dude, have you done this before? Has somebody have.
Dan Petroski: this is the first time and I'm glad this is being recorded because I'm sure as fuck gonna forget.
Matt Weiss: You're like spot on on these. You, you can stop there unless you wanna keep going. I know you're at time, so
Dan Petroski: the only, that's my only five wines, so that's right
Matt Weiss: that's
great. Well, Dan, thank you so much. This has been such a joy. Um, and I would just, everybody out there [00:54:00] go Google Maicon Wines, M-A-S-S-I-C-A-N. Look at follow Dan Petroski. It's you, if you get yourself some Maicon wine, you will drink deliciously.
Thank you very much.
Dan Petroski: Thank you Matt. Good to see you, brother.