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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to
take a moment to close your eyes,
to soften your body,
and allow yourself to simply
be present to this moment.
And very much like other meditations,
guided imageries, I simply ask
you to surrender to your breath.
Breathing in and breathing out,
allowing all the distractions,
all the to dos, to be present,
And yet not be friction
breathing in and breathing out.
We are aware that we all long
for fluidity, ease, and access
to the higher sources of inspiration.
And yet in doing so, it is
important to remind ourselves.
myself, yourself, to be
comfortable in the gravel,
to be comfortable being next
to the stranger and finding
relationship in the discomfort.
And as I ask simply breathe
in and softly breathe out
within the deep paradox of
finding surrender in the
gravel and the discomfort,
see the light that shines through that.
Breathing in and breathing out,
there will always be resistance.
And there will always be tension.
Our bodies breathe in, our lungs full
of capacity, and we hit a certain
point where the breath out is released.
In this moment,
finding your breath and
surrendering to the tension, and
in that, inviting in the flow.
Nothing to force.
Simply the bear witness.
Breathing in and breathing out,
now reconnecting to your body,
finding grounding,
and finding your center.
And when it's called, opening your eyes
to see the room, and most importantly,
seeing yourself a little differently.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
psychedelic psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about the psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today I'm humbled, really blessed,
and have been waiting compassionately,
patiently, and thank you for the
laughter, Madison, in deep patience.
Madison, with the laughter,
how are you coming in?
It's great to see you.
So good to see you.
I'm coming in pretty well.
I'm nervous.
What's the nerve all about?
You know me.
I'm trying to find the
right words for everything.
But that's also been a huge focus for me.
Is not finding the right,
perfect everything.
Good practice.
This is a great practice.
The whole joke of this entire
experience that I'm having is
words can never be perfect.
match the experiences.
So honestly, this podcast
could just be quiet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's just sit in a 40 minutes
silence and just be like, what
does psychedelics mean to you?
Yeah.
Just feel that, well, great
chatting with you today and next
in all honesty, Madison, how did you find
the call to psychedelics and what was
the invitation that you've now accepted?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've been in therapy and seen a
psychiatrist for over 15 years now.
And I think my serious walk in therapy
began About 10 years ago when I
started intensive therapy for intensive
treatment for an eating disorder.
And that really course corrected
my life and I would not be here
today if it weren't for that.
And, there have been other traumas to
in my life that we all have different
traumas and I think over the course of
10 years of therapy and psychiatry, I,
and now as an adult with two young kids
and a high pressure career, my husband's
also got a high pressure career, and the
busy schedule like all of us have, it just
became increasingly more difficult for me
to manage my stress and I found pieces of
my eating disorder trying to creep back in
and just trying to cope with what life is.
Intellectually knowing that that's
not helpful or that it doesn't
serve me well, but still not
really understanding how to cope.
I felt very stuck in depression and
anxiety, just this constant cycle of
like, is it a season of depression
or is it a season of anxiety?
Then what are the maladaptive coping
skills that go along with those things?
I just felt like I hit a wall sort of,
like I, I, Something had to change.
It's kind of like the point you get
to where it's like something's got
to give and life isn't going to give.
And I am a very driven
and aspirational person.
I didn't want to give up anything there
and I have young kids and I want to show
up as a parent and I was introduced to
it, ironically, when I was pregnant by
a family member, which was like, sure.
Hey, so we're, I'm pregnant.
And let's talk about psychedelics.
Yeah.
And so I, I didn't dismiss it entirely.
It was just like, huh,
this is interesting.
And then five years later
sort of reintroduced to it.
And then ironically enough, a
coworker had mentioned something
about her experience with it.
And so I did what every good student does.
And I listened to all the podcasts
and watched all the documentaries
and read as much as I could and did a
lot of research but your book, I was
introduced to you as an integration
therapist, and I was introduced to a very.
Wonderful guide.
So I just started the conversations and
what I really leaned on in the whole
process and what I needed, I think, is
like the, I needed the science behind it.
It was one thing to know ancestors
for years or centuries has
been using medicine work.
For me though, it's like, but my brain,
right, it's not like I, I'm not looking
for a Peace, love, hippie trip here.
I need my brain, there's
something wrong with my brain.
And so leaning on just the researcher on
the default mode network and how that's
how we identify ourselves and knowing
that this is one of the only medicine
works or, or type of therapies that can
actually address that and course, correct.
Yeah.
That rewiring and here we're, yeah.
Yeah.
You, you say it so eloquently, but I know
having walked with you in integration,
you, you are vigilant about the stories,
looking at all the rocks and being very
intuitive to what your body's saying.
Was there an intuition that ultimately
unlocked and said yes to this?
Beyond the science and
beyond the research?
Did your, did your body come
to you and say, Hey, this
does feel right to me as well?
Yeah, it did in a way that,, even
as I'm looking at you, my shoulders
finally relaxed a little bit with hope.
It's like, okay, I really don't want to
have an eating disorder the rest of my
life, and I am largely, like, I don't
think I'll, I'm, I've still accepted that
I don't think I'll ever be recovered.
I don't know if there is such
thing as recovered, especially
in the society that we live in.
Anxiety, depression.
I've lived with it for so long.
I like, I don't really see a future
where that doesn't exist for me, but
the hope of there's a different way
to manage this and there's a different
way to look at this was something that
I finally felt I said, I feel like I
could relax my shoulders a little bit.
Yeah, and what I'm kind of blown away
by the synchronicity is the idea that
you understand and I'm so grateful for
this Madison that the Relationship to
eating will always be there the anxiety
and depression will always be there and
to my point about the gravel and the
attention That's a mistake and belief.
I think many people have with psychedelics
is that all of a sudden there's an
evaporation of yeah Good Really?
No.
It's coming into concert with these
relationships that we've had and
heal the relationship that we've had.
Yes.
With an addiction or with
anxiety or with depression.
Does that resonate with you?
Yeah, incredibly.
I mean, I, I have loved working with you
and I think one of the first things you.
And I kind of dismissed it and
now it's come up several times and
it's very true is it's healing not
fixing and I came into the work.
I remember setting an intention
for my first experience and it
was essentially like if you were
to boil it all down, I want to
eradicate my anxiety and depression.
I want to eradicate my dependence on
validation and my desire to be liked
by people and this crazy perfectionism
that has driven me my entire life.
I want to eradicate my eating disorder.
I was like, buckle up, and I, I,
I knew that wasn't going to happen,
but my hope over time was, would,
was that that's what would happen.
And I was so focused on this
outcome, like the fixing is an
outcome, the healing is a journey.
And what I've learned along the journey
is so much more profound than just
landing at a destination of fixing.
Thank you for that.
I really appreciate the healing versus
fixing and this idea that when you
say boil it down, I'm hearing you also
recognize the new relationship you have
with psychedelics as a longer game plan.
Is that so intimate, like one and done?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that was a You
know, rewriting history here.
I grew up and dare was a big thing, right?
Like who wasn't in dare and who, you know,
we had a students against destructive
decisions group and like, there's all
this stuff that, and, I went to church
as a kid, like all of these things that
teach you just the inherent evil of this.
And I think that was a really hard
speed bump to get over is that.
Like there was this guilt associated
with leaning into this because
it because that's all I had
known was this demonic drug and
and I think the, you know, it took
me a couple for me to recognize
how much deeper this is than that.
I mean, the first one, it was very clear
to me, but you know, there's you and I've
talked about this, the grief that happens
or that I experienced after an experience,
which is like, I want to hold onto it.
I want to remember everything I learned.
I want to.
Hold on to the emotional release or the
lessons or the insights and you just kind
of feel them slipping through your fingers
When you look at that and then you
compare it with what you'd hear about a
drug It's like they're not even on the
same planet What's the emotion coming
up in you right now as you reflect on
just knowing that there is anticipatory
grief after a ceremony for you?
What do you want to acknowledge
in yourself and to witness?
It's a good question.
I
I mean, honestly, just to reflect after
the first one, I was like, I don't
think I have an addictive personality.
I have very, you know, I have
perfectionism and drive and
achievement and, and all of this.
But I, I remember being done and I
like the first one was not flowery,
it was very, very difficult and very
revisiting a lot of deep, deep trauma.
But I remember getting the
feeling of grief and being like,
Oh my God, did I find the thing?
Did I find my addictive substance?
Like, I wanted so badly to be back in
it because Of the release I found and
because of the enlightenment, but I
didn't understand that at the time.
So here I am fearful and that's
what I thought the grief was.
And then, having done a few of them now,
I know, and I can expect that
the grief is going to be there,
but there hasn't been a single
experience that I haven't felt that.
But I think now being, what, three
weeks out from the most recent one
that goes away and it's replaced
by, I mean, integration's hard.
It's not a cakewalk, but.
I think those first, like that first
week following an experience is
so critical to try to reflect and
understand and piece it together.
But also not try too hard,
like just let it come.
Thanks for the smile.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Holding it loosely.
I often say, it's this weird thing
I'm dealing with lately is, is
how can I release the grasp in
order to soften the burden, right?
Yes, yes.
If I can loosen my grip on this.
Say integrating something or
trying to make something happen.
What is the burden that I'm
carrying and why is that weight
and what can soften around that?
And then what room does that
leave for something else?
Say more about that.
Yeah.
The minute that happens,
what does that provide you?
I mean, I feel like it's been, I mean,
each one is so different, but I feel
like over the last even three weeks,
Loosening the burden, especially around
two things, which the first I've been
working on for quite a while is just
needing to validate my lived experiences
and needing validation from other people.
And,
and when it comes down to it, no words
actually probably would have ever helped.
Like, I don't think anyone's words
of validation would have ever helped,
but also why am I looking elsewhere?
And then that's also me expecting a
lot of someone else to see something
exactly how I want them to see it.
And.
understanding why they think the
way they do, why they process
things the way they do, if it's a
dissonance in how I'm experiencing it.
Like I can't ultimately control
what their experience is.
And I can't control the
way that they see things.
That's such a
unnecessary stress and impossible
stress to place on myself.
So I think loosening that burden
has been a big one for me.
And looking at it that way of it being
a burden rather than me constantly
needing the validation to validate
who I am, what I'm doing, the choices
I'm making, wanting to be liked.
I'd actually rather not be everyone's cup
of tea because it means I have a backbone.
Right.
And so I think, I think loosening
that burden, it just opens
up, I don't spend all my time
trying to justify in my head or.
, creating this list of documentation, so
to speak, that I can serve up anytime it's
requested for my lived experience, right?
It's just, it just is.
It is just tell me a little bit
about when you are looking at all
the sessions, because it's not
that you, you're not new to this.
You've been very devoted.
What is the devotion to this?
The extreme devotion, which I respect.
Do you notice about how they
intermingle all the different sessions
and what has brought you to today?
That's a very loaded question.
How much time do you have?
long as you want, and o often as the
case, I often add more to the question,
so you answer it in a beautiful way.
Like Okay.
I actually recently, after this last.
session with my guide,
kind of went back and summarized, and
I've done this a few times, is just,
I found it really helpful after each
experience to draw themes, like what are
the major themes that came up for me,
and I've done that after each one, and
after the most recent one, I, I put them
all together on the same page and in, in
brief moments I got pissed cause I'm like,
God, that one's the same as that one.
You know?
And I, it's like, why do you doing this?
It's hard.
It's freaking hard.
But I think you said it beautifully
after, as I was integrating another
session was you drew this mountain and
it's like, the way I think of it now is
I might have this, this Large mountain
in the distance that I have my eye on
being able to conquer, but there are
other things I need to conquer first.
And so I might set an intention and
it might not connect back to that
intention until another experience
later, because I just wasn't prepared.
Like it's not linear in
the way I wanted it to be.
And it's not supposed to be.
And there's themes that I
almost look at them now.
It's like, Oh, that was an elementary one.
That was just the opener.
And what that actually needed was
these couple of things to add to it.
So that I could understand and process it.
And.
Now, when I look at the story
of these six experiences, it's
I couldn't be where I am now or have
the discovery that I've had without
all of the ones that came before it.
Did I want this many of them?
Did I think it was, I, I didn't know.
I just kind of was like, I'm open.
I want to heal.
I think it's helpful to
have the same themes.
I think it shows there are
common themes of what I mean.
, I want to make sense of
all these complex things.
So I draw them into themes.
And I think just having.
Themes make sense, and they make
sense together, incredible sense
together, which is pretty wild.
Yeah, and one of my mentors, Stan Graf
the brilliant expert in psychedelics,
would call these condensed experience.
So, Madison, what you're articulating,
and I want to reassure you today
in this present moment, is we often
grapple and fight with thinking, Oh,
we've learned that lesson, put that
to bed, or let's incorporate it.
And yet, I've been noticing
is these condensed experiences
defined by overlays of similar
things or behaviors we're used to.
actually remind us that
sometimes we need those lived
experiences to make sense of it.
Yes.
It's very comparable to a dream that
if we have reoccurring dreams, I
often will say the reoccurring dream
provides the person reassurance and
safety then to learn about the thing
they're actually trying to learn.
If it was always so novel, so diatomically
like annihilating of our senses,
sometimes we're not able to grasp that.
So endorsing incremental psychedelic
therapy provides us this reassurance
of, oh, I've learned that before.
Now I get to add the nuances of the
learning, almost like if I'm hitting
a tennis ball, the swing of the stroke
becomes refined based off of the practice.
Yeah, and I think it's humbling too
when you approach it and it's like,
I got this and I'm still have the
nerves and then it's like, Oh shit,
I just got hit in the face by myself.
And I think just even walking through
if I can just the themes like the first
one was revisiting some very painful
traumatic places and people, and it
was just probably the biggest emotional
release I've had in the last five years.
And I think I was.
It just proved how much I was holding
on to and letting that hurt define me.
And I had a similar experience recently,
but since I had had that first one
and the release in that way, the one
most recently was like, I can see more
clearly why I'm having this release.
I can see more clearly that the first
time I really just needed to let it all
go, and I needed to revisit in a way
that was like, yep, this happened, these
things happened, they hurt me, and this
is why they hurt me, whereas recently
it was, okay, now I can honor that.
But it's not who I am and that's
not the story I have anymore.
So while it's similar to the
first experience, it's different.
Same thing.
Part of the experience, this
pastime, I have a very hard
time letting go of control.
And last fall, actually around the
same time, I had an experience with
my guide and it was not pleasant.
I don't, I don't think I could say it was
a bad trip because I learned a lot from
it and there's a lot that I've integrated.
But.
It was like a pressure cooker
of my own brain with demands and
chaos and achievement and you
should, you should, you should.
And that started to happen
the most recent time too.
But since I had it before, I
recognized this doesn't work for me.
Then this time it was like, see,
it really doesn't work for you.
And that's not the story you want to live.
And so again, I think it's just
compounding the experiences
that make them make more sense.
Right, we need to eclipse them a little
bit and to age myself, it's like the old
school projectors where you put the screen
projector over screen projector and you
see where they line up, where they're new.
Yep, that's exactly it.
What do you do now, because you do have
a relationship with a certain cadence,
how do you know when it's time to get
on the mat and do the medicine work?
What, what's alive in your system?
What are some of the tells that
you identify with a need to go
to the devotion of psychedelics?
Yeah, I mean, like you said, I have a
cadence now that I've established with
my guide and it's been really helpful.
If I don't schedule it far out in
advance with my schedule and the
kids and just life in general,
I don't think it would happen.
I work with my family to make sure the
kids have care that weekend so I can
be really gentle and I can spend time
reflecting Although most recently didn't.
And it was actually an interesting
way to integrate real life
into one of these experiences.
But I think from a, like what my brain
feels like, what my body feels like
when I know it's time is when there's
an imbalance and it's a very clear
imbalance of, stress is getting the
best of me and my mind is racing more.
I'm spending too much time focused
on work or you name the thing that's
just not, it's not balanced with
what actually makes me
happy and what I need.
And I actually find, I noticed this most
recent time, the most balanced I feel as
a person is the week leading up to and
the week or two following an experience.
And it's because I'm so incredibly
intentional with what I give my
attention to, because like, I don't
want that to make it into this
experience, so I'm going to shut it out.
Let's see more about the question.
Then why am I paying attention, paying
attention to that in the first place?
But , it's protecting my piece more,
being able to hold a boundary a little
bit firmer and of, of again, where I give
my attention, what I spend my time on.
Whether I open a social media app or
not whether I make time to journal,
whether I'm not like, I still have
this override function of, you
know, Hey, you're really tired.
Well, a workout could feel good.
And like that's still some eating
disorder stuff that I struggle with is.
I, it actually does, and I actually
do enjoy it, but I still have
the mind, the mess behind it.
But when I override that and
I'm not listening to that,
I do get out of balance.
So when it's like, oh, you feel tired,
then we should rest and journal.
It's like, huh, interesting.
That makes me feel better.
Right.
And I know from everything you've shared
with me, you've tapped deeper and deeper
into your body and your spirituality.
Did you think Having a deeper connection
to your body and your spiritual path
would have been unlocked in this work.
Yeah.
I still remember,
I think it was after my first experience
talking to you and you're like, I
think you need an embodied experience.
The fuck I do.
Like, no I don't.
No, I didn't think I would.
And now I'm so highly, and
I've always been very aware.
I'm a deep thinker.
I'm highly reflective.
I'm like, what is my body doing?
What is my brain doing?
Why is it doing it?
So it's, I've always been that
way, but I think I'm able to
actually listen to it now.
Yeah, what's that like?
Can you tell me what it's
like to listen to your body?
I mean, there's still a battle.
I still have the, the brain
that tries to counteract it.
It just makes you slow down a
little bit, makes you slow down.
And when you slow down,
what does the heart say?
The heart can speak.
And what does your spirit say?
There's a more, there's more of
a sense of peace and acceptance.
Get off the hamster wheel, so to speak.
Yeah, and what I'm watching in this
moment is you overriding the brain
and allowing the hearts, the body,
and the spirit to take center stage
in what's not a natural
thing for me to do at all.
No, but you do a really good job at it.
It's becoming more natural.
It's becoming more natural.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The deep pause of should I
be in my body and my spirit?
What's the spiritual
path that you're on now?
What do you owe the medicine?
What's the devotion to the medicine?
I think if anything, if intensive
therapy taught me anything
and even the years following, following
treatment these paths are so well worn.
And I think I said this before,
but the amount of times that
I've said intellectually, I know.
This thing isn't helpful.
Isn't good for me is, you know, or
that I should do this and I would
feel better, but you have to feel it.
And I don't get that type of
feeling with anything else.
I can't get it from
validation from anyone.
I can't get it from a book.
I can't get it from the meds that I take
every day to balance my brain chemistry.
That is just not, I, the medicine
work is critical to me actually being
able to uncover that, and that's where
the real change has happened for me.
Whether it's because of trauma as
a teen or young adult, or my eating
disorder, or these coping skills
that I've developed over the years.
Unless I truly feel it and believe
it, then it's hard for me to
convince myself to do otherwise.
And I think that's really what I owe it.
I mean, that being said though,
integration has to happen.
The experience itself is not enough
if you and I weren't working together.
These would be six hour happy
times or crying times, whatever
way you want to look at it.
No, I agree with you.
I totally agree with you.
I often say if you're not
integrating, you're just doing drugs.
Yeah, which was what I really
didn't want to go into it.
Now I understand the work
that goes into integration.
Yeah, and what's the devotion to
yourself beyond the medicine, beyond
the therapy, beyond the integration?
What do you owe yourself right now?
I mean gratitude is a big one.
I Please.
I I'm grateful that I'm as curious as I am
and that I understand there's more to the
things that I've experienced or something
that used to define me for so long like
I'm more than that and to be able to
recognize that and to be curious and keep
trying to discover is why I am who the
way I am today and why I am who I am.
And it's just been
like, I can keep it
and don't get me wrong.
Weekly therapy is great.
Like it, it has a place and it has
served me incredibly well and it
will continue to serve me well.
This is just a different
type of healing than that.
Well said.
That's perfect.
Yeah.
And everything has a space and everything
it's, it's all incorporated medicine.
What are you doing to
be gentle with yourself?
Well, being a few weeks out after my
last experience, I'm still journaling,
waking up early, journaling a few times
a week before the rest of the world
wakes up and before the day gets away.
And I've also been noticing that
These little glimmer moments where I
actually had one today or something
happened at work and that normally
just would have Really hit the core.
I was just like, huh, just doesn't
bother me as much so I think
finding those little glimmers and
and carving time out to reconnect
because even My husband has said I
asked him one time if he noticed a
change in me Just out of curiosity,
being the person who's closest to me.
And he said, I do around the time
that you haven't experienced,
but you know what, you can tell
when there's, it's been a while.
So I think, again, just proving that I
need to find time to carve out to focus
on the reflection and the integration.
So just being really
intentional with that.
Yeah, and more power to you because
the close people in my life are
like, Hey dude, get on the back.
You're sounding a little crunchy.
We'll get there.
Madison, I'm humbled.
I'm so grateful.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Appreciate you.