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Join the Nerds!
Welcome to the funtastic world of the Fabulous Learning Nerds! Scott Schuette and Daniel Coonrod and Zeta Gardner are Learning Executives with over 50 years’ experience between them. Together they share new ideas, learning tools, approaches and technology that increase learner engagement and impact. All while having FUN! To participate in the show and community please contact them at learningnerdscast@gmail.com
The nerds are all about creating a community of learning, innovation and growth amongst educational professionals: Instructors, facilitators, instructional designers, learning and development professionals, trainers, leadership development professionals, learning metric gurus, sales enablement wizards and more. So, if you want to learn, connect, grow and have a good time doing it, The Fabulous Learning Nerds Podcast is for YOU!
Scott Schuette (00:01.3)
Hey everybody, welcome back to another great episode of your Fabulous Learning Nerds. I'm Scott Shudin with me, my co-host with the most, Dan Coonron everybody.
Daniel (00:10.786)
Scott! I didn't hear the drop, Scott.
Scott Schuette (00:13.504)
Why didn't it drop? Here we go.
Scott Schuette (00:20.0)
This is where you would say, yeah. It's great. It's awesome. It's awesome, huh?
Daniel (00:20.642)
Scott! How's that? How's that now?
Daniel (00:26.69)
Do you remember that podcast we did about how awesome failure can be? I feel like we're circling back. We should. Yeah.
Scott Schuette (00:32.374)
We should do that one again, because it was a great episode. That one, along with Why You're Learning, sucks. I want to do that one again. That was a great episode. I got a lot of flack for that one. But how are you doing, sir?
Daniel (00:38.42)
Yes! Yes!
But, I'm fair to Midland.
There it is. There it is.
Scott Schuette (00:51.446)
Yes, it's great. So we were talking before the show real quick. And I just have to ask a question. So I know what your answer is going to be, but we have oftentimes talked about what the perfect movie is and the perfect movie for you would be.
Daniel (01:06.754)
I mean, it's my god, you asked and it left my brain my god, what's it called? I put on the spot Galaxy Quest. my god Yeah, super strong argument can't remember the name of the movie
Scott Schuette (01:14.464)
Galaxy Galaxy quest which I disagree with that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Back to the future Yeah, well then we're not gonna talk about that I I'm my perfect movie is back to the future, which is awesome. I know I know that's that's right and Actually, and I sent you pictures, but I had the opportunity to go ahead and see Back to the future the musical
Daniel (01:29.346)
I love Back to the Future. I've never thought Back to the Future was bad.
Daniel (01:38.657)
Yes, you did.
Scott Schuette (01:44.03)
which if you've seen the movie and you love the movie, you will love the musical. Like I didn't expect much. I expected good things, but I got really, really great things from Back to the Future, the musical. It was really, really awesome. The DeLorean like stole the show and it actually flies at the end. no, spoiler. Yeah, but it flies in the movie at the end. I mean, that's really that.
Daniel (01:57.367)
Daniel (02:06.25)
I know it flies, you you think about like a musical stage production, you don't think like flying DeLoreans.
Scott Schuette (02:12.616)
It flies over the crowd. So back to the days of Phantom of the Opera and Miss Saigon with the massive props, right? Those had kind of gone by the... We went back to the future and got those props back in. So it's super duper cool. It's great.
Daniel (02:27.562)
I will admit, I am not a big fan of musicals usually. They do not do, I know, I know, I know, they don't do it for me. We were talking about musicals as the show, as we were just pre-show. And I think we were talking about Hamilton, which I have been in the room while it has been on, but I have not watched it. But however, I do have a favorite musical. I do have a favorite musical.
Scott Schuette (02:32.933)
Scott Schuette (02:44.95)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Schuette (02:48.916)
Well, at least you watched it. I didn't watch it.
What is your favorite musical, sir?
Daniel (02:56.343)
brother, where art thou?
Scott Schuette (02:58.752)
They made a musical, bro, they're right off the heart?
Daniel (03:01.106)
No, the movie is a musical!
Sam (03:01.632)
I think that... I think that counts.
Scott Schuette (03:03.84)
But is there a stage show of it? Then it doesn't freaking count. It doesn't freaking count. I'm sorry. We'll have to play that. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. That's right. So there it is. by the way, I will say, so this is a Turing show, so you get what you get, but the guy who played Biff Tanner, spot on, looked just like Tom Wilson. Spot on! I'm like, is that?
Daniel (03:07.538)
No, does it? do we have to do stages? I see. I see. Gatekeeping much? What?
Sam (03:12.853)
wow, so it has to...
It has to have a stage version.
Daniel (03:19.042)
AHHHH
Daniel (03:31.394)
Really?
Scott Schuette (03:32.758)
Tom Wilson, he on? No, no, it was spot on, just like Biff, and I thought that that was awesome. at any rate, also with us tonight, you've kind of heard his voice, the man behind the curtain, Sam's here everybody.
Daniel (03:40.374)
That's awesome.
Scott Schuette (03:51.51)
Damn.
Sam (03:54.816)
What's up everyone?
Scott Schuette (03:56.501)
Hey, so on the topic of musicals, favorite musical go.
Sam (04:01.496)
man, see when you put me on the spot like that my mind instantly goes blank. So first one that I think I would... I know but like I was actually thinking of one. I did really like Sweeney Todd.
Scott Schuette (04:06.358)
Really? no, but you've had like three minutes, three minutes to prepare for an answer.
Scott Schuette (04:20.586)
Mm-hmm.
Sam (04:22.21)
But like Dan, I'm not that big of a musical goer. There used to be an old musical show that I absolutely loved. I think it got like one and a half seasons. It was called Galavant.
Daniel (04:37.918)
I remember Galavant. Galavant was great.
Sam (04:40.61)
Yeah, and I really liked Galavan.
Scott Schuette (04:40.726)
Well, there you go. Okay, well that's groovy. That's awesome. And what's been keeping you busy aside from the house, sir?
Sam (04:49.128)
It's mostly the house. I've gotten it back into a little bit of video editing and I've been working on that.
Scott Schuette (04:51.614)
Okay, I got you.
Scott Schuette (05:00.534)
Good. Video editing is an important skill, especially nowadays. Yeah, so that's super duper awesome. And what platform are you working on?
Sam (05:01.718)
But yeah. yeah.
Sam (05:10.242)
I was working on it with Clipchamp. Starting off with that.
Scott Schuette (05:16.298)
We talked about that last episode. I actually am teaching people Clipchamp tomorrow. So yeah, yeah, actually, yeah. But these are like people that know nothing about video editing and need to put some stuff together. And that's a longer story. We'll get into that later because folks, I'm super excited because it's been a minute, a minute, since we've had a special guest and we have one today. And I'm super excited to talk about a very important topic. But before we get there,
Sam (05:21.77)
Really?
Sam (05:36.225)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Schuette (05:44.086)
We're going to learn all about it in a little segment that we call What's Your Deal?
Scott Schuette (05:54.365)
Erica!
What's your deal?
Erika Coleman (06:15.51)
Love it. Thank you. So I'm Erica Coleman. I'm a speaker. I'm a consultant and I love to call myself a recovering overachiever from the L and D world. spent 12 years in direct L and D working for some of the biggest training company names that you can say. I did virtual training support all through the pandemic. That was really fun. Owned my own company in that. And unfortunately I also hit burnout so bad that I had to leave and recover for a couple of years before coming back.
But during that time, of course, I'm an overachiever at that time still. And, you know, if you're burnt out so bad, you can't function. did the thing that made most sense to me and I applied to a master's program at Harvard. So, yeah, don't recommend that for recovering from burnout. But I did actually have a great time at Harvard. I said, OK, let's figure out what I did wrong. How did I misunderstand stress so badly that while I was in the pursuit of stuff that I loved,
Daniel (07:00.16)
Yeah, full choice.
Erika Coleman (07:14.38)
I burnt myself out to a crisp. That would be like the nice dramatic way to say it. I was burnt to a crisp. How did I do it? How do I do it differently? Can I still get the things done that I want to get done without it costing me so much in the future?
Scott Schuette (07:26.55)
Yep, I think that's really really important and you know, had the pleasure of meeting you at learning solutions I got my learning solution shirt on unfortunately, you can't see it because this is an audio podcast and you and I hung out a lot at learning solutions You need you had a really great Really great team doing some really great stuff. So when you reached out when we were connected, I'm like Hearing your journey and hearing all about some of the things we're gonna talk about tonight really really interesting and really important because I
Erika Coleman (07:39.212)
We did.
Scott Schuette (07:54.819)
I know, especially in today's marketplace, like instructional designers, us learning development people, we love more caretakers, we love taking care of people, we take on a lot. And now with new tools and whatnot, a lot of us are taking on more than we should. And how do we deal with that? So totally, totally get it. So with that, folks, let's go ahead and dive into our topic of the week.
Erika Coleman (08:03.278)
Mm-hmm.
Scott Schuette (08:27.766)
Topic of the week with Erica is, hey, we're going to be talking about reducing stress without it costing your success. Awesome, awesome stuff. So Erica, help us understand why is this really important and why is it especially important kind of for those of us that are in our audience today.
Erika Coleman (08:46.146)
Yeah, well, we all want to be seen as competent and capable, right? Like that's why we show up at work. That's why we're going to be like, all right, I need to prove that my position is worthy, that I'm the person who shouldn't be laid off, that I need to make sure my company is okay because of my learning and development sucks. You know, that has a real impact on your employee's ability to get their stuff done. And so we push and we try, we do all those things, but it can come with a pretty big cost. mean, stress, obviously, but it can move into exhaustion.
My favorite side effect is resentment, by the way, if you've been like, well, you try to fix where the button was placed in this e-learning module. You get really resentful about little things because you spent all this time on it and no one appreciates it. And it's a real thing. mean, recent reports have said that it's 50 to 60 percent of people are feeling burned out at work right now. And I think that's probably a pretty nice estimate. It's probably bigger than that. We pulled that report from SHRM.
And so it was like, okay, can we get everything done without it coming at that kind of a cost? Or is this just like the way that life is and work is right now? And so I said, okay, let's figure out what is it that when we're stressed out, what do we get wrong? Like, why is it that when we know the advice, because let's be honest, we haven't heard the vice, why don't we take it? What's the problem with the advice that we get? So I like to describe when you're stressed out and it gets obvious.
You get friends and family members who love to say, I know what you need. We all get that. Do you have any favorite answers for, I know what you need?
Scott Schuette (10:19.838)
You need a vacation.
Erika Coleman (10:21.174)
You need a vacation. Yeah, for sure. And I'm always like, OK, go ahead, schedule it for me. Go ahead, do that. Right. But I like to put this advice into two buckets. And bucket one is some version of do less, which is take a vacation. You need to delegate this. Why aren't you using AI better? You should just put less effort into it. But like you said, Scott, we're caretakers. If you tell me to do less, all I'm hearing is
Daniel (10:28.534)
Yeah.
Erika Coleman (10:47.662)
care less about this. And we all know that when I care less in my instructional design, it's really crappy design. Like nobody wants to be in that learning situation. So we know that our care is what elevates it. So we're like, well, I can't do less. Can't do less. So instead, if I were super stressed out and I start to Google it, let's say I hop on, how do I manage my stress? You get the world's longest list of whatever the latest influencer trend is.
Right? My favorite has been the red light therapy mask and helmets. Now, for instance, I'm like, OK, if I wear a red light therapy helmet while I am figuring out all of my to do's at work, maybe magically, I won't be stressed out. It goes through. get I'm not drinking enough water. I should be eating less gluten. I should be meditating. I should be doing yoga. But at the end of the day, that's really just telling you to do more. We don't have time for that. That's the problem in the first place. But if do less and do more aren't the answer.
What is the answer? Like what is left? Are we just stuck with it? And that's the question we get to pull apart. So what do you think?
Daniel (11:51.286)
You know, I just want to jump in and just like, I, I've never thought about it exactly like that. I've always, you know, I've, I've been in the boat recently. I've been in the boat and in my past, but in a boat where I'm like, man, I'm so stressed out. I'm doing so much. And like, like you start putting in the time and effort to like, like, all right, how do I de-stress? How do I let go of this? But that's work. That's work when you're sitting here just trying to figure out like, all right, how do I get rid of this? And now like,
I have to stop working when I was working on so I can work on being less stressed about what I was working on and you just get in this terrible cycle so...
Erika Coleman (12:26.688)
Yep. Yep.
Scott Schuette (12:28.95)
You know, of the things that we haven't are touched on yet is that, you know, there's the effects on us, but there is the effects on the people around us. You know, so like if if I'm stressed out and I get done and it's a quarter to six or maybe it's later than that, like nine thirty, right. Now I'm going to eat at nine thirty. I'm pretty grumpy. Right. And that's not a healthy thing for my marriage. That's for sure. And then.
Erika Coleman (12:37.402)
for sure.
Erika Coleman (12:51.413)
yeah.
Scott Schuette (12:56.884)
I get more really bad advice like, well, why don't you do less or why don't you quit? Right. And so why don't you just quit? Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You know, so, so what are some advice that we could give ourselves that would be helpful versus the, Hey, why don't you just do less or, you know, try to figure out a way to, do more with less.
Erika Coleman (13:04.652)
Why don't you just quit? Because that's not stressful.
Daniel (13:08.438)
Hahaha
Erika Coleman (13:25.966)
So what I like to do first is kind of say, okay, let me unpack some of the science with you about what it is that we get wrong about stress. Because we have a tendency to think that as long as I'm doing something good, it will always be good for me. And that's not necessarily true. There is research from Adam Grant and Barry Schwartz where they jumped in and said, let's take the most virtuous behaviors that you can find. They chose Aristotle's virtues like courage and...
optimism and hope, all these big things. And they said, what happens if you overdo them? They found out that every single one of them at best gives you diminishing returns. And at worst, those good things can actually become harmful to you. And so it was like, crap, I can't just assume that because this is good, that if I lean all in, it will always be good. So we can be like, all right, well then stress is just the cost of success. But that's not true.
because if it was Alyssa Lou wouldn't have a gold medal right now. She's my favorite story of all of this, where she said, I'm going to step out of this hustle burnout culture. I'm going to redefine this and I'm going to come back and then she set a whole new standard for everybody on the ice. So that was exciting to see. And you can't assume that all right, the only way it's going to happen is if somehow I become a billionaire who owns a house in Hollywood Hills and now I've got all my private wellness spa built in. That that's how I get rid of all my stress because that's not attainable either.
Scott Schuette (14:25.28)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Coleman (14:51.522)
So the way to unpack it is know that if I took all the science I learned, the biggest way to understand it is know that your ability to handle stress is like a muscle. So if you go in to working out, right, let's say for instance, my husband really loves to work out. He's a big dude. Like his bench press maximum is 475 pounds, which if you don't work out, that's about the weight of a small baby grand piano that he just one day pushed up.
Woo! But if I go in, I know, right? This is a lot. I'm pretty proud of it. I'm always like, woo, go honey. But if I went in and I was like, it's important for me to keep up with him. He matters to me. I have to be his support. And I try to push up 475 pounds. I can't even put up 75 pounds. Like, it doesn't matter how much I want to. I have to build the resilience to that strength as it goes. So first, take away from that kind of understanding that your ability to handle stress like a muscle,
Sam (15:20.887)
That's a decent amount.
Erika Coleman (15:47.726)
especially for LND people is like, all right, if we look at, for instance, orientations and onboarding of folks, they're super overwhelmed. And we already know that our training could be amazing, but this might be their first time in the gym. So how do I make sure that I've adapted and adjusted one for their ability to handle that stress and then two for my ability to handle supporting them in that stress? You probably have lots of understanding and strength in that area, but even then,
If you're pushing so hard every day and try to hit your maximums in the gym, what happens? You get injured. Like my husband loves Arnold Schwarzenegger. I hate the Arnold Schwarzenegger workout because he gets injured every freaking time. But he's always like, but I'm getting bigger. I'm getting stronger. I'm like, but it pushes you so hard that you get injured. But do I ever say stop working out? No, you still have to get to the gym, but you have to make sure it's a healthy workout with those rest.
between your sets built in. And I like that because that's the second half of this analogy from the science. It's called ego depletion theory. It's like my favorite takeaway of the science that I learned. And it is that like if you're lifting three pounds and you do like 45 reps of three pounds, even if you're super strong, that's going to wear you out. So Scott, you're like, yeah, it's a long day. I get home and I'm tired.
That's because you've been lifting lots of little reps all freaking day long. And if we haven't built rests in in the middle of the day as it goes, no matter what, I get home and I'm tired. Even your strongest Mozen master with enough light reps is going to be worn out. And so what we're looking at is, okay, there's a couple of ways to think about this. One, if I'm super stressed out right now, if I put enough understanding into this moment, it can be something that makes me stronger for stress down the road.
unless I take on too much, then it burns me out. Burnout is an overuse injury. It's what it is. Also, even if I'm super strong and super amazing and super capable, if I have enough slack notifications and uninterrupted meetings of people popping in and brand new assignments that have to get done by 3 p.m. today, you're gonna be tired, period. So as you look at those little stressors, my favorite thing about those little stressors is that
Erika Coleman (18:06.35)
They're usually really sneaky that because they are in the moment, they suck. Like think of traffic. You sit in traffic, you're pretty frustrated. It's not a fun place to be, but as soon as you're out of traffic, you're like, I'm fine. It wasn't that big of a deal, but in traffic, you were not a nice person, right? If you see it like that, the thing is you have enough of those back to back. They still tire out even though you forgot about them. It's actually what makes stress really hard to study. So as you look at your day, you get to go, okay,
How many of these little interruptions do I actually have in my day? And are they depleting me in a way I didn't expect? Like what are some of the interruptions that you get day in, day out that you're like, I hate that. Meetings.
Scott Schuette (18:47.986)
Meetings. Meetings. Could this meeting be in an email kind of a thing? You bring up a really good point, if I could pause you for just a second, you're talking about like, make sure you're ... I'm a gym rat. I don't prescribe to the Arnold Schwarzenegger workout at all. No, it's not. But I do like the rest between sets. think that's really important. I think those people who do workout understand the importance of it. But it works.
Erika Coleman (18:53.501)
for sure. Yeah.
Erika Coleman (19:05.806)
Good, don't lose your shoulder. It's not worth it.
Scott Schuette (19:17.942)
or, you know, and especially remote work. Cause I think that when you go to the office, it's a little bit easier to find breaks. But if I'm in my office, like, and Dan maybe could attest to this, I don't take a lunch. I don't. I work right through lunch. Dan, do you take lunch?
Erika Coleman (19:24.547)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel (19:33.986)
You know, so actually up until recently, no, I didn't. But I will say just in the last like two months during the day, I have begun turning notifications on my phone off, which seems like crazy because, know, like, you know, I'm in the space where I'm, you know, need to talk to people, you know, like looking to make those connections. But like I will turn off, you know, notifications on my phone. So that way, like I have on my calendar.
check and respond to messages, notifications, and emails. That's squared away. And then I always take a lunch now. Like I didn't used to, but like I got to the point where I was like, I have to, I have to get up and leave my office, leave my space. And like, even if it's just, I work from home, so even it's just to go out to the living room and sit in the living room, like I need that reset. little things like my workspace is my workspace. Like I don't hang out in my workspace when I'm done for the day. I don't go to like my work office.
Scott Schuette (20:12.106)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel (20:34.102)
I'll hang out the living room, I'll hang out in the bedroom, I'll hang out outside, I'll hang out any place but my workspace. Just because as we're talking about stress, I will say I'm probably coming off probably the most stressful year of my life. And even all of the little things that I know work for me, for me purpose is a big thing.
Whenever I've got a lot of stress, if I can just like refocus on the purpose, like that's usually enough to keep me from hitting burnout. Like this is what the goal is. This is what, this is why I'm doing it. This is why I'm sitting in front of my computer at two in the morning, yelling at storyline while it crashes. Usually that's enough to like check the box and keep me going. But you know, this past year, it's, you know, it's been tough. It's been really tough. And so I've had to make big, big changes.
Erika Coleman (21:22.862)
I'm proud of you. I know that, but I am, I'm like, go, good job. Like listening to the fact that your body needed that and then actually making the shift is surprisingly difficult to do because it really is easy to just be like things are urgent and important. So I'm gonna focus on them versus, okay, wait a second. I'm gonna go take a lunch.
Scott Schuette (21:22.891)
Yeah.
Daniel (21:24.646)
Aww!
Sam (21:26.551)
What's the full picture?
Daniel (21:34.649)
yeah.
Scott Schuette (21:42.811)
like I always tell people, it's my thing. Like we live in the tyranny of now. Right. So, you you ask the question like, well, when is this due? You know what the answer to that question is, right? Yesterday. Thank you very much. Very good. That's correct. The answer.
Erika Coleman (21:48.866)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Coleman (21:55.744)
Yesterday. Always.
Scott Schuette (22:03.144)
It was, it's always do yesterday and always, always. So don't even try to ask that. Well, it is the answer is the answer. Right? So how do we get it? How do we get ahead of those kinds of things when we, we live in the tyranny of now, right? And then the important thing is, for me, and when I talked to people about all the time from a leadership perspective, it was, spend so much time in quadrant one and Covey, right? The urgent important tyranny of now space.
Erika Coleman (22:05.11)
Always.
Sam (22:07.201)
Can't say if I'm a fan of that answer.
Erika Coleman (22:09.205)
No, it's not a good answer.
Scott Schuette (22:31.658)
that when we have any free moment, where do we go? We go to quadrant four, which is not urgent and not important. It's just, well, I'm going to go, I'm going to go to Tmoo. I'm going to buy some really cheap stuff and all that kind of stuff. But quadrant two, right, which is the not urgent, but super important, that's where growth happens. And as a leader, I always try to like, well, how do I get there? But there's just so much in quadrant one. So
Erika Coleman (22:44.078)
Yep.
Scott Schuette (22:59.638)
What are some tips that you have to help us balance this out, right? So we're always gonna have the quadrant one stuff, it's always gonna be there, it's always gonna be one of those things, but how can we balance those things out, right? So Dan's gonna take a lunch that's great, awesome, what are the things that Dan can do to help remind himself to take a lunch? Or what are those things that I know that you're gonna bring to the table from a best practice perspective? I'd really love to know.
Erika Coleman (23:04.247)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Coleman (23:10.84)
Yeah.
Erika Coleman (23:23.566)
Yeah, so I mean, the tricky thing about stress is that it is individualized is how I like to think of it, meaning I'm going to feel stressed differently than you're going to feel stressed. Just like at the gym, you have different exercises or you have different muscle strengths. You're going to have different things you're good at and different things that you're bad at. first and foremost, you got to get to know yourself and say, what is it that stresses me out? What is it that when this pops up, I grind my teeth or my jaw gets tighter or I lift my shoulders? You can start finding where in your body that shows up.
because your body notices it before your brain does. And you can use that as a signal to say to yourself, crap, my body is giving me a signal of I'm in survival mode and I got to flush out some cortisol. How am I going to do that? And then there's lots of regulatory exercises that you can do to actually build it in. My favorite one is a breathing exercise where you breathe in for four seconds, you hold it for six, you release it for eight, and I just do that twice. I was like, no matter what, before I start my next meeting,
I'm going to do two breaths in for four, hold for six, out for eight. The science behind that is really cool. They found out that if you breathe out slower than necessarily in, it has a stronger signal to your parasympathetic nervous system to reset and also flush out some more cortisol. So if I want to have the best brain power that I can get for my next project, I'm learning how to say, how do I rest between my sets? And that's one of them. A walk around a different room is another one.
my favorite is some form of, call them exercise snacks. instead of normally I would just go get a regular snack in the pantry because you know, that's what I actually want, but you can do an exercise snack instead, which is a reach or a lift or pet a dog, which is, I joke about that in my tech talk, but it is actually scientifically proven that if you pet a dog, it releases both happy hormones for you and the dog. Like things like that where we're like, we're trying to make it so big and so hard when really I need to be thinking there are little obnoxious things in my life.
What's cool is a little obnoxious things become an opportunity for a healthy workout. If I use it as a chance to practice the regulatory exercises that help me rest. Because if you get to that super, super stressful moment and that's the first time you try regulatory exercise, it's not gonna work. That's like going to the gym and hoping I can put up a PR that I never worked on. Like I'm not gonna push 475 pounds if I've never worked out before. It's not gonna happen. So instead I need to go, okay.
Erika Coleman (25:50.794)
If I say, this was annoying, my boss was bugging me today, I hated that email, I'm gonna use it as a chance to practice a regulatory exercise. Suddenly I take control of that moment and it starts helping. I do have to put a caveat on it though. If your workout every day is demanding that you hit your maximum day after day after day, breathing well is only gonna get you so far.
you have to actually take a different approach as well. There's a paradigm shift we have to make. So when I teach this part, I love to tell people the most important thing that I learned at Harvard is that you don't have to give your all to give your best. Way too often we think that effort is how we measure our best. That is not true. In fact, if we are pushing so, hard every single day,
It will hurt your physiology to the point that you can no longer give your best. If you want to give your objective best, stop giving your all.
Daniel (26:57.666)
love that 100%. I used to tell my teams very similar, like, hey, just give me like 70, 80%, save the rest for whatever else you need. I had one person on my team who was really smart, really good. And I knew he was giving me like maybe like 60 % on his top days, probably closer to 50%. And I remember having like a real conversation where I was like, hey,
Erika Coleman (27:23.788)
Mm-hmm
Daniel (27:27.958)
I know you're like only given like 50%. And right now nothing's getting missed. Project's looking good. Everything's fine. So that's fine. That won't always be fine. But right now that's fine. I was however, terrible, terrible at taking my own advice, which is like, because like I was constantly like 110 % day after day, week after week, 12 hour days, six days a week until literally my beard fell out. Like that was the level of stress. It was bad.
Erika Coleman (27:43.832)
Mm-hmm
Daniel (27:56.928)
was so bad. like, so like, let me ask you this, like, why are we so bad at like, like, I knew I could look at my team be like, Hey, guys, you know, we're working way too hard, we're working way too guys, slow down, relax, and then literally leave that meeting so I can hop on to another meeting so I can stay up late and work and build decks and do stuff. So like, why are we so bad at that? Why are we so bad at like, following your own advice?
Erika Coleman (28:10.414)
Hmm?
Erika Coleman (28:22.414)
I think it's because we care. That's one of the problems. It's really hard to step away from things that we care about a lot. And we tend to think if I stop caring, then I won't put effort into it because that's what we tend to equate it to, right? If someone's only giving 50%, I'm like, well, you must not care very much. But that's not true. Like if I think of that with my kids and how much I love them, if I give them 100 % as a mom, 110 %
I'm not a nice mom. They don't actually like being around me because I get really resentful. And I actually had that same problem with my own business where I built the business I wish had existed for me as a working mom. I literally said, I want to have roles that are set up and I want to have like a childcare stipend so that you show up to work, you get paid enough and then you check out and spend it with family. That was the model I wanted to build my business on. And I did it really great for everyone but me.
Daniel (28:52.962)
Erika Coleman (29:16.302)
Of course, I didn't do it for myself, but I sure protected it for everyone else. The biggest issue for it, though, was my top performers watched what I did. And unfortunately, then they copied me and I burned out all the top people. So that's when I finally went, crap, this isn't actually just about me and my effort and what I want to give. I have to remember that they're going to model the behavior I do, not just what I say. And I don't want them to burn out.
Daniel (29:20.384)
That's right.
Erika Coleman (29:45.032)
That was the whole reason I built what I did. Ouch, that hurts. That feels like hypocrisy. So I did actually study this because I had the same question. So I want to hear some of the science I found. I'm such a nerd. This is why when you said nerds, I was like, please let me come play. The other people don't want me to nerd out. there is I love it so much. There is research in negotiation. It was done by Harvard Business School. They were saying, OK, why is it?
Daniel (29:56.641)
Yes!
Sam (29:56.641)
Absolutely.
Daniel (29:59.965)
Hahaha!
Erika Coleman (30:13.912)
that sometimes very, very smart, very, very talented business people will go into a negotiation deal and spend more money on that deal than it is worth. Meaning, they technically win the negotiation, but the cost is so high that they lose overall for the organization. And it happens, really, really smart, wonderful people. There's a lot of case studies on it. So they said, let's do our own case studies, let's do our own experiments. They found out if four factors are present, you're up to 20.
twice more likely to overbid on whatever deal you're going after. If you're a high performer, you probably do all four of these things all the time. Now, three of the things are going to be baked into your life just as a working professional. The first thing is a spotlight. So, you know, when we're watched, we try harder. We understand that. That makes sense. We have direct reports. We have managers. We have people that expect us to get things done, family members.
So okay, spotlight is gonna be in our life. The factor number two is a time pressure. And you already mentioned these deadlines yesterday, right? The closer we get to a deadline, the harder we're going to push. So those deadlines drive us a lot and that we can go down a whole road of like boundaries and setting project management, blah, blah. We're not gonna do that today, but you could. But no matter what, deadlines don't go away.
they exist, we have to meet them or we get fired. Ta-da. So they're always going to be there. then last but not least, not last, sorry. Number three is time pressure. And this is what we were talking about with I care about this. The more that we spend time and effort on something, the less likely we are to walk away, even if walking away is the best decision. I think anyone who's ever designed a program that like you get 75 % of the way done and you're like, oh, this is not as good as I want it to be.
you still just keep pushing hard. You're like, it's gonna be better, right? We just dig our heels in deeper, even if 75 % probably would have been just fine for what the organization needed. So, but at the same time, we already have talked about, if I stop caring, we know the product we're gonna put out is not good. So we don't wanna stop caring. We can temper that a little bit, but no matter what, we wanna keep our heart in what we do. So it's the fourth factor that we have to pay attention to, because this is the one that is not necessarily have to be in your projects.
Erika Coleman (32:36.64)
It's the one that got negotiators to really push over the edge when it's present. It's also the one that gets us in the most trouble and we can control it best. So the fourth factor is the presence of a single rival. In negotiation, it makes a lot of sense. If you are up against eight other people in a bid and the price goes too high, you're like, let someone else take it. But if you're up against just one other person, your focus changes from, want to get a good deal on this to...
I want to win and I'm willing to win at all costs because all I have to do is beat that guy. Okay. You can be your own rival and that sucks because as we are working towards our deadlines and we're pushing towards things, I know for me if someone's like, do you need help? tend to say, I'm fine. It's fine. I've got it. I'll take care of it. Or if I don't get this done, I'm look like an idiot.
or so-and-so is getting this done, I've got to make sure I match their deliverables. Or I don't want to let anybody down. I that one a whole lot. And yet it always feels like we're letting somebody down, even if there's not somebody that we can actually let down. And the problem is when we do that, we are signaling to our brains that we are the enemy to be defeated. If you win against yourself,
Who's the winner? There isn't actually a winner. It's not there. And yet we're convinced that somehow I won, but then it doesn't feel good because it came at the cost of kicking yourself to the floor. So what the crap? my gosh, I can't actually win this. What do I do with this? So the biggest shift we have to start doing is saying, how do I stop treating myself as the problem to be fixed when I get things done? How do I start saying to myself, I'm actually...
Daniel (34:03.362)
Yeah
Erika Coleman (34:30.284)
a very powerful, important resource in the things that I need to get done and then treat myself as that. So that that way I'm not over bidding on my success. Because when we do over bid on our success, we pay for it in our health and our relationships. So that's tricky. That becomes a whole different discussion. This isn't just how can I give you tips and tricks on how to do stress management. This is holy crap, how do I stop getting in my own way because my measurables look fantastic.
But I'm a miserable human being. Like that's how I usually felt when I was prefect. When I was performing at my tops, I was not a happy person, but it looked great. And so that's a big shift you have to make. And it's a hard one.
Scott Schuette (35:02.198)
Yeah.
Daniel (35:02.444)
Ha ha ha!
Scott Schuette (35:12.35)
Really, really good stuff. Thank you for nerding out on us.
Sam (35:14.103)
yeah.
Erika Coleman (35:15.918)
My dog's like, he said nerd, I can do it!
Daniel (35:19.458)
You
Scott Schuette (35:22.422)
That's right. Hey, unfortunately, we're at that time where we're going to have to start wrapping some things up because we're all stressed out. But this has been really, really great. And so what I'd love for you to do, Erica, is if you had like maybe one or two things that you could leave with our audience and we'll get you back for sure. That's not a problem. But one or two things you want to leave with our audience as we begin to think about wrapping up today.
Erika Coleman (35:46.676)
Yes, so if you want to take better care of your personal health, I have a question for you that you need to schedule, like literally schedule it into your project management. I usually do it halfway through or a little bit sooner and ask if I continue at this pace, when I'm done, will I have enough energy left to celebrate? If you will not, you are pushing too hard. If you've scheduled that check-in in early enough, you may actually have some space to renegotiate.
If you do have enough energy, take the freaking celebration. High performers suck at that. We suck at celebrating the small things. We tend to just take a breath of relief and then move on to the next thing. But your motivation needs you to remind yourself that that was worth doing. So take that, you know, happy dance moment that you need to say this was worthwhile so that your brain fuels motivation for the next project. And then I have one other question that you can do.
Because when we're going after big important things, it takes a lot of head space and we're not always present for the people we love most. So here's your action item. I want you to think of one person in your life. Just one, not a list, just one. And I want you, we've done this before over at T-Rex, like there's 10 people in my life. No, one, just one, don't overdo this. And I want you to find them this week and ask them in the last 30 days, have I been present enough for you? And then sit back.
Sam (36:56.119)
Ha!
Erika Coleman (37:13.398)
and wait for an honest answer. Because if you haven't been, you want to renegotiate before it's too late and that they leave.
Daniel (37:23.938)
That's good.
Scott Schuette (37:24.49)
Good stuff, Erica. Really, really appreciate it. So glad that you can join us today, nerd out a little bit, and give us some real practical things to think about. Could you do me a favor? Could you go ahead and let our audience know how they could connect with you?
Erika Coleman (37:37.454)
Yeah, there's a few ways I am on LinkedIn. I post a lot on LinkedIn. I did also just start an Instagram page because I met some college students who looked like I handed them a dirty sock when I told them I was LinkedIn. So you can find me on Instagram at evenachieving. And then I have my website, erikacolmanspeaks.com. And you can also check out my Ted Talk at erikastedtalk.com.
Scott Schuette (37:58.433)
Thanks, Erica. Really, really appreciate it. That TED Talk is the bomb. You should all go check it out. Really, really great. I love your story at the beginning. It made me cry. with that, Daniel Son.
Daniel (38:10.452)
Yes, Scott.
Scott Schuette (38:11.574)
Could you, me, if you could let everybody know how they could connect with us?
Daniel (38:15.41)
Absolutely. All right, guys, by now, think you've got it. Email us at nerds at TheLearningNerds.com. This week, I think we would love to know what's stressing you out and is it worth the stress for what you're getting? I think we'd like to know that. If you're on Facebook, you can find us at Learning Nerds. All of our Instagram peeps can find us Fab Learning Nerds. And lastly, for more information about us, what we do and updates, www.thelerningnerds.com.
Scott, back at you.
Scott Schuette (38:47.828)
Okay, we're going to wrap up and here's how we're going to wrap up. I'm to do a quick out and then we're going to go around the horn. And I'm just saying, I'm Scott, Dan, Sam. You're going to say, I'm Erica. And then that's that. So what questions do you have?
I'm trying to keep everything honest because we're already three minutes over. But that's okay, Dan. You'll have plenty of time to get to your call. But I'm just so glad that you reached back out to me and it's been a real pleasure and this is good stuff. Timing is really, really great for me as I transitioned into something great. I don't know if I told you that, Dan. Yeah, I did tell you that. So I got the job. So yeah, there it is. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got a new job. I'm transitioning.
Daniel (39:08.603)
I'll live.
Daniel (39:23.83)
Yeah. hell yeah.
Scott Schuette (39:28.436)
I'm transitioning from not a toxic place, but a dysfunctional place into a much more functional place, which is going to be great. So this is going to be great. All right. So let's go ahead and we'll wrap up and then that'll be it. Here we go. In three, two.
Sam (39:28.918)
Heck yeah.
Scott Schuette (39:43.19)
Thanks, Dan. Hey, everybody, could you do me a favor? We really need you to go ahead and hit that like button and hit that subscribe button because it does a lot of really good things for us, right? It brings more people to listen to the groovy stuff that Erica is going to be talking about or that Dan and Sam have to talk about. And it's really important stuff. So please do that. Also, if you feel like it or actually if you don't feel like it, just do it. Go ahead and leave us a review either on iTunes, Stitcher, wherever you find the Fabulous Learning Nerds, because it really helps us understand.
how we can bring more to you. And with that, I'm Scott.
Daniel (40:16.16)
I'm Dan.
Sam (40:18.474)
I'm Sam.
Erika Coleman (40:19.66)
And I'm Erika.
Scott Schuette (40:20.917)
and we're your Fabulous Learning Nerds and we are out.