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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
I think today's episode I might be more of an expert on than you.
Okay, rude.
I don't like where this is starting at all.
Well you know it's on play
So you know that much at least.
And last night our daughter, I was putting her to bed, our oldest daughter, she told me out of the blue like I did not bring up anything related to this.
And she told me
Dad, you are more fun than mom.
No, not more fun.
That's what I heard.
Yeah, that's what you heard.
That's what my brain heard She said you are sillier.
She did not say you
were better.
Nice try.
Scott and I are always in competition.
It's very unhealthy, so don't take that from us.
However, our daughter did say that you were sillier.
I don't think she used the word silly though.
That's what she said to be
More funny.
Yeah, more funny.
So s I'm offended because I feel like I'm very playful with these.
Yeah, so that being said So that means that I win in this parenting competition.
The critics who think Scott is just on the podcast because he wants my praise are gonna love that.
Why?
Remember I told you I got a couple uh criticisms of the podcast that sometimes they think you just say things cause you want me to be like
Good job.
Oh true.
Yeah, so this is giving.
This is why this is giving.
I have an internal confidence so I don't have
to seek your praise.
Like I have an internal confidence that I am very playful.
I feel like that's a load of bullshit right there.
Anyway, we thought it would be super fun.
I mean at least in Canada
It's dead of winter right now.
Maybe kids are getting a little chaotic.
I know they are in our house.
So we thought it'd be fun to do an episode on play and the strategies, like practical things that Scott and I do with our kids.
Before we do that, let's talk about playfulness first a little bit before we just get into this is how we do it.
Because I think there's some important things to understand about playfulness.
Understand the why behind it.
Why be playful
Yeah.
So as much as I am actually more fun than you, according to our daughter.
According to studies.
Yeah, according to yeah.
the small amount of research that I've done.
But actually you are pretty good at play.
You always have been.
So I'm just wondering what made you that way.
Cause I would say our friends would probably agree too that you are one of the most playful with children
It's just something you're able to do.
So why is that something that you're capable of doing?
Like what made you enjoy doing that?
Because I feel like a lot of parents don't enjoy that.
I know and I love it.
Maybe because I'm still a child at heart
No, that's a really good question.
I'm trying to think if I've always been playful.
I feel like I have.
I think maybe playfulness was respected for me when I was a kid.
I do remember being a child and having lots of time to play and not being interrupted when I was playing.
So I do think I was able to learn how to play, which a lot of parents would say even as kids, I don't really remember playing
I remember being very creative with my play as a kid and I see it in our daughters and like, hey, if you lock me up in my room and I have three Barbies, perfect.
I'll be there for three hours
I think that there's a piece of my brain that is that highly creative side that's just always really been drawn to imagination and daydreaming and playing.
And I remember that as a kid
And I think my parents did respect that.
And that being said, I think my parents were especially my dad, I feel like was quite playful and still is
Like not only in like playful kind of joking, but also in the little characters that he would do for me and he would make little jokes.
Like he would do this thing called the two-fingered man.
And he would just have his two fingers out like this and he would just be like walking and the two fingered man would always like get into chaos and he would like climb up our shoulders and like jump off and he still does it with our kids, which is super cute.
But the two fingered man would just come out out of nowhere and all of a sudden like we'd be talking to the two-fingered man and so I just feel like I had it modeled
to me too.
My dad was really playful and creative in that way.
And he'd always be doing these little bits like that.
And so I think it comes a little bit more naturally to me.
But I also do think it's a big part of just who I am as a person and that is an outlet for me, play.
It always has been.
and play comes out for me now and playing with the kids and being like super weird and creative, but it's just a really good outlet for me and writing and stuff like that.
Like I wouldn't say I'm creative in the way that I'm like good at art
or anything like that.
Like I'm terrible at it.
But in making up worlds and imagining, I think that's just something that my brain's drawn to.
Okay
So I guess at what point then did you figure out that play was so powerful?
Because I've seen or you've explained stories about you use play in a therapy session.
Or something like that, or a puppet, or something that I would not expect to have worked, and you're explaining it to me as as though, watch, I'll do it for our kids.
And then all these things that they weren't sharing before, they're gonna share with this inanimate object that I would think would not work.
But they just immediately
understand that this is play and all of a sudden it opens up their whole day.
And I just so at what point did you figure out that it was so powerful though?
I feel like two things.
So this idea that I keep having my head of like the science and the song.
So
I feel like I always knew intuitively that play was powerful before I knew the science behind it.
For example, I went from being a child to being an oldest sister who had two little brothers, so I still played with them, to being a babysitter.
I babysat constantly.
when I was young and I was always with kids and I was always playing with them to going to school, working with kids, to becoming a child therapist, to having my own kids.
So that's that's the other thing when you're saying, like, why are you so playful?
I feel like I never stopped playing.
Like I just always had opportunities.
I think I just never stopped.
Like I just always have still been with kids, so I've just known intuitively to continue to play.
Whereas I think a lot of people don't have that opportunity, right?
Like they were they were a child and now they're a parent
And the time in between they weren't still playing.
Right.
I never stopped.
So that's why I still have the ability to do it, I think, fairly easily.
I started working at a very early age and then by high school I had three jobs.
Like I was working full-time hours while in high school trying to save up so I could go to university.
So then you went to university.
Yeah, and then I had no time to play.
And then all of a sudden now let's say when our daughter's three she wants to play with you and you're like
I haven't played since I was three.
Yeah, like the idea of playing Barbies with her or something like that, that's not something I really do.
Whereas I feel for me, like I just have never stopped.
So I think my brain has always been in playfulness.
Yeah.
But now more so because I mean through work and then through having my own kids, I feel like it's brought back up the importance of play for me
Okay, so why is play so important though?
Yes Like I understand we want to be playful and I know the answer to this, but I want you to explain why is play so important
for us as parents or caregivers to be able to do with our kids.
So in the early years, play is incredibly important, like we were saying, for little kids because play is how they learn and how they make sense of the world.
Like kids are actually their brains, and I wish I had more brain science on me right now, but the brains are wired to play.
And so what they can't really understand through logic or reasoning
they can understand through play.
And there's some sort of research, maybe we can include it in the show notes later.
I can try and find it
Something that it takes a certain amount of times to teach it in a classroom, but if it's through play, they learn it X amount of times quicker.
So there is a lot of research to back up that kids actually learn things through play a lot quicker and easier than they'll learn it through, let's say, direct instruction where I'm just a teacher and they're all sitting at their desks.
So play is actually how they learn and play
can be songs, it can be art, it can be imaginary worlds.
And their their brains are wired to do this.
Play also allows our children a chance to rest and to take a break from the demands of their busy life.
Play is actually how they decompress and calm themselves down.
And so if children don't have time to play, they actually don't have time to calm their bodies down, and it will lead to more dysregulation.
There actually is a lot of talk about how we are kind of losing play right now for kids because of extracurriculars and just busyness in their lives
And also a lot more seat-based work, let's say, in JK and SK, where kids are having less time for just free open-ended play
And what researchers are saying is that we're noticing that kids that don't have as much time to play are less creative down the road, have less problem solving skills, and it's because they learn those essential things through play
Right.
So when you're playing and you're the mommy and you have three kids and your kids who are also kids, you know, are fighting or doing whatever they do and play
you have to take the role of leadership, right?
And you have to learn how to care for your kids that you're playing for, right?
Like I played a lot of moms and dads when I was a kid, and my brothers were always the kids.
And
Through that play, I learn how to be a leader.
I learn how to solve problems.
I learn these skills that I wouldn't necessarily just learn if I'm sitting in front of the city.
Yeah, at least the beginning stages of it.
Yeah, you start to learn these skills.
And there's a lot of research to back that up too.
That's not just my opinion.
Any person who has training in child development would say that play is probably
outside of sleep, one of the most important things that our children need in these early years.
And that doesn't mean that parents have to play with them all the time.
I think parents actually sometimes try too much to be involved.
It actually means that we have to set up the environment
for our children.
What do you mean?
Play, when I'm saying kids need to play.
Like of course there's playful things we can do to encourage play, but also playing on their own.
is really important.
So a parent doesn't always have to be the one playing with their kid.
I think that's like a misunderstanding
So for example, with our kids, you have it set out, you have toys set out or whatever, and your child is playing with them and they're lost in their world, you know, they have Bluey going on and Barbie over here and leave them
Leave them alone.
Don't try and join them.
If they are lost in their imaginary world, the last thing we want to do is interrupt that flow.
Yeah, that's something that I will often do.
And I'm trying to stop.
Yeah, I feel like I give you a look quick.
Yeah, you'll give me the look.
But I find it cute so then I wanna make a comment or say something and then it yeah disrupts what they're what they're doing.
Yeah and so then the reason why
play is so magical, let's say, to boost cooperation or to get your kids to stop melting down or to reduce power struggles is because now you're speaking their language.
They understand what you're saying if you're saying it through play.
And they're feeling seen and they're feeling understood by their parent.
Yeah.
Right?
So instead of barking demands, but their their brain is in the play mode
We are actually joining the play mode with them.
So we're joining into their world.
And that's why you're able to get their cooperation and to get their attention and get their time with you.
Because
Often if their brains in play mode, but you're in serious like, hey, I'm giving you a bunch of demands, I need you to listen to me mode, you're in two different modes and your child's maybe not going to cooperate with you, not because they don't want to, but because their brain's thinking in a totally different way.
Right.
Well that's actually another question that I had.
Let's say I'm a parent and I, first of all, struggle with silliness or playfulness.
Yeah.
Partially because I feel like my child won't
take me as seriously anymore.
So like there's there's less structure, there's maybe less discipline in that environment.
Yeah.
What would you say to a parent that says that?
Yeah, I mean I feel like there's two pieces because it could go down the path where you're being so playful and silly with your child that you're not setting boundaries, like not you specifically, but you have to ask yourself, am I being
playful and silly so that I can avoid setting a boundary with my child or so that I can avoid being the leader in this situation.
We don't want it to go on the side of being permissive, right?
Let me try to think of an example.
Like your child's hitting
And you know that if you set a boundary around them hitting their sister, they're gonna have a meltdown.
And so instead of
ever telling them not to hit or that it's not okay to hit, you just are silly and distract them.
But then hey, the sister who was just being hit doesn't feel like you did anything to protect
them and the child who hit never actually learns that it's not okay to hit.
Does that make sense what I'm trying to say?
So it does, except for the fact that I know you've said use playfulness to help teach a lesson
So how do you know the difference between a situation where playfulness can be used to teach your child not to do something
versus a situation where you shouldn't use playfulness.
Right?
Like I think you said both things, so then I'm trying to figure out like when is the right time to use either.
So yes, playfulness is a great way to teach, right?
So let's say the headings situation, if you're only using playfulness to distract
But you're never using playfulness, let's say, to teach why it's not okay to hit and help your child learn a new skill so that they don't hit, that's the difference.
So it would be like I'm using playfulness to just distract them so that they don't hit, but now they don't have a new skill next time.
They never learn what to do to not hit.
So an example in that situation, like maybe I would use playfulness to help them not to hit, but first I would set a serious boundary.
I would say it's not okay to hit your sister.
Okay.
I would check in with the sister and then maybe through puppets I might talk about LA Chelsea used to struggle with hitting her brother, Grumpy Sean, when she was young.
And what could LA Chelsea have done so that she didn't hit her brother?
You know what I mean?
So there is that that dance of like the boundary, but then use playfulness to teach the skill.
Oh yeah, that makes sense.
I just wanted to clarify that because I know you've said both.
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's really, really important to clarify.
Do you have any moments or any unexpected breakthroughs that you've had with a child because you've used playfulness
Countless.
Like I know you've used those I find them creepy, but those like Muppet they're they literally look like Muppets.
They look like they would be on Sesame Street or something like that.
And I know you said that they work in therapy.
But even with our kids, I don't know.
Like are there any moments that you can think of that you've had this unexpected breakthrough only because you use playfulness as the tool or I don't know what I'm trying to say here, but
How has playfulness led to breakthroughs for me with children?
I mean, I can think of literally so many moments.
So I'll name a few for you.
I had a child in therapy and what I used to do with therapy and this might be more of a tip for the therapist than the parents, but I had all these different animals.
And the animals, they would just be sitting there.
And then I would let the child choose which animal they wanted to like pick for each member of their family.
And then we'd just maybe play out a situation that happened with their family
And I remember a child always choosing like the scariest dinosaur that I had for her dad.
And then this really cute kitten thing that I had for her mom.
And so through play and just understanding that it's really interesting every time that sh like in my own head, I wasn't saying it right away.
it was very interesting to see who she would choose and who she would play with.
And the dinosaur that she would use to describe her dad would always be yelling and the mom would kind of always be like on the side
and this child is let's say six, they don't realize that what they're showing me through their just playing out a situation with their family just like a dinner time.
is showing me everything I need to know about the different personalities in the family and how they act.
So that was a big breakthrough for me because she couldn't necessarily say, hey, my dad's yelling at me
And this is what we found out later on.
You know, my dad always yells and I'm scared of him.
And my mom is this kind of soft little kitten who's like in the corner not saying anything.
But I learned that through watching her play and then from there I could ask her questions and get to know what was happening in her family.
I mean that's one of many, many examples of a breakthrough.
And then I'll say another one with our daughter.
If you want to get to know your child, listen to them play.
Don't interrupt, just listen.
Yes, true.
Listening to them play is so interesting.
You will learn and I even in therapy I would do this.
You know, I just if especially if I'm working with a young kid, I just set it up and just sit back and listen and they'll tell you everything you need to know about how they feel.
So our daughter had a bunch of Barbies and she was in the living room.
I had a little baby at the time and I'm sitting on the couch and I just decide to listen.
She's been having tons of meltdowns.
Things have been really hard lately.
I'm listening and oh
What do I hear?
I hear, hey, if you give me a hug, you're gonna die.
And these are the Barbies talking back and forth.
And it was the pandemic.
And it made sense.
Right.
So just listening to her play with her Barbies told me everything I needed to know about the fears that she was having of dying if she hugged anyone that she loved.
And so from there I can support her with those fears.
So I mean that's two of so many examples I could give you where I've had these really profound realizations of what's going on for a kid just through watching them play.
Yep.
I remember that one too with our oldest
Saying that?
And both of us thinking, we never told her anything along those lines, just that we would get sick or whatever, potentially.
And she picked up on it.
Yeah, somehow she picked up on that.
And that was
Something we would not have likely found out if we said, Hey, what what's going on?
What are you worried about?
She probably wouldn't have used those exact words.
Yeah, play is their way of getting all these mixed feelings, all of these emotions, all of these anxieties that are in their head out.
And they can't necessarily say it to you in words, but they can say it through play.
So I guess listening is one of the best things a parent can just do.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtur First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unspeakable.
Safe touch, and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff, like tickling that goes too far, and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak up.
up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
com/slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
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And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
So let's talk about screens then.
Because what you're explaining makes a ton of sense, but
I think if our kids were on screens more, a lot of these things would not happen.
Like we would not be learning a lot of these things.
It's simply because they have been using imaginative play
Mm-hmm.
That we learned a lot of these things.
And even our like our almost eight year old still plays.
Yep.
And we'll play for
hours.
Like on a weekend, on a Saturday afternoon, she'll play for like four hours.
Play with Barbies or set up a whole scene in her room with all these different things and then like all of a sudden we'll find her playing Uno with
She has seven stuffies out and she's playing Uno with them on her own and she's flipping over all their cards for them and doing and playing a whole game.
Yeah.
It's just so important to talk about this because we need to preserve play at all cost.
Like as long as your child will play, make the space for them to play.
And the thing about screens, again, like we we did a whole episode on screens, so feel free to listen to that if you want more.
But if screens take away from your child's ability to have open-ended play, that's where the problem comes in.
Right?
So if your child, let's I think we talked about this in the episode too, they have a whole Saturday
And the whole day is basically open, like they're just in the house, they're playing all day, and then Saturday night you throw on a movie with the family.
Yeah.
No problem.
Not worried about that at all.
Well I might even play Mario Kart for an hour with our two oldest ones or something like that too.
But if that Mario Kart or gaming, which we see a lot, especially in young boys.
Don't you feel like it's everyone though?
Yeah, but I feel like
even something about that, like just young boys and Minecraft and the Fortnite, like for girls it might be social media, like earlier that's kinda taking it away.
Whereas I think for boys it's gaming earlier that's taking it away.
If that's replacing your child's time
play.
We gotta look into that because we we want to preserve play for as long as we can.
I think that's why like we talk about my creativity.
I think I've able to can still be
creative because I was able to preserve my ability to play, thankfully through babysitting for so many years.
But if screens are taking away from your child's time for open-ended play or extracurriculars are taking away from your child's time for open ended play
play because they're in school all day and then they go to sports at night and then they come home and they only have time for sleep, you probably will be seeing more meltdowns, more big behaviors.
They're not having that time to decompress
sort out their emotions and really rest through play.
Yeah.
So once again, you can listen to that episode.
We think it's important for parents to really consider their screen use with kids.
I think that makes sense.
Like from what we've seen with our kids, not allowing them to like they're they don't have an iPad or anything like that.
Screen time is relatively limited.
Yeah.
Like let them be bored.
Yeah.
I know the w Saturday, Sunday, we were all sick or something like that.
Yeah.
And our oldest was saying how bored she was.
Well actually both the two oldest ones were saying how bored they were.
We're like great
And then all of a sudden they came up with this idea that we were gonna have a craft show and we had a two hour limit and we had to come up with crafts and then we were gonna rate the crafts.
after uh everyone had made them after the two hours.
So they came up with that because they were so bored.
Mm-hmm.
And then they spent those two hours
Playing with each other, cuh, trying to come up with they ended up coming up with a play because that's what they wanted to do with their crafts.
So they did some crafts making uh
They ended up looking like unicorns and fire or something like that.
And then they wrote a play.
And they wrote a whole place.
They had this costume costumes that they made and anyways.
I just wanna note and maybe you're getting here
But play is important for us as adults too.
I think a lot of the work that I do and our team does for adults who are struggling with burnout and they're struggling with depression or anxiety
It's like well where do you play?
You know, where's your fun?
Can I ask a question?
Yeah.
I'm raising my hand for those are who aren't watching.
Uh what's considered play for an adult?
Like is my 3D printing considered play?
I would consider
play for an adult, something that's not done to be productive.
You're not specifically trying to get any sort of outcome from it.
And it's simply done to have fun and rest.
So what that looks like for you might be 3D printing, right?
There's if there's no specific outcome, as soon as you're trying to make money from it, it's not play.
And you don't try and make money through 3D printing
But I think that's like a problem that a lot of people have is that they do something for play, for fun, right?
Like let's say you
like to make things with your hands, like you like to build things.
And so you start building things for your house and you're just building random things.
It's so fun.
It's your outlet.
all of a sudden you're like, hey, I should actually start like a little business where I sell these tables that I'm building.
All of a sudden it's not play because now you're doing it for
Business.
And if that's what happens to so many people, they do the thing that was playful for them and they make it into their job
This has happened to me and I've had to kind of figure this out.
Right.
And they make it into their job and now all of a sudden it's not play, but now they don't have that outlet.
And I think it leads to a lot of burnout.
Because the thing that was once fun is now your job.
And now I don't have that fun thing to do, but I actually need that fun thing to do so that I can rest.
And now all I do is try and be productive.
And it could lead to a lot of burnout.
So that's what I'd say.
If 3D printing for you doesn't feel like I have to be productive, I have to sell things Well, selling things has nothing to do.
Like that is the last thing on my mind with any of that stuff
But the idea of productivity, I feel like that's never not in my mind.
Yeah.
I feel like that's been so drilled into my head.
Even the speed at which I walk, people complain about when they walk with me
But that's because I remember a s very specific situation where I was told you need to walk with purpose.
I personally think you struggled with play.
Yeah.
Play that's not productive.
It doesn't scratch that itch of productivity for you.
Or you can just kind of be.
Oh, 100%.
Like for myself, yes.
So I have lots of hobbies, but it depends on what you would consider play because I
In my opinion or my mind, that feels like play to me.
But that's potentially also because my brain is just now wired to constantly be productive and
Hey, I'm designing something for a basement.
I'm designing a like a storage unit for a basement that specifically fits drawers that I'm gonna make.
And I find that enjoyable to do that, but at the same time I also realize that that's a productive thing to do.
But when you're done, so on any given Saturday, Scott's dream Saturday, we're just home and he's just like puttering around kinda doing all these projects in the house
Yep.
When you're done that, do you feel rested or do you feel more tired?
I don't know if I have a good answer for that.
Like are you like, oh I just did a whole day of work around the house, I'm so tired now
No, I feel satisfied with what I accomplished usually.
I think there's a piece of it that's play.
And I just think for you and people who have like your and my personality, we just need to be mindful of is it actually is our play tiring us out more
Or is it bringing us joy and helping us feel rested and kind of unwind after a busy week?
So I guess it that's just the balance that you have to try and figure out.
I don't think it's right or wrong.
It's just
Yeah.
I don't know that I wouldn't say there has been any day, unless I'm sick, where I'm not doing anything.
Like even when we're watching TV, I'm usually working at the same time.
So I have my computer open or something like that and I'm They drive me crazy.
I think for me that's why I like playing with the kids so much because for me when I play with them and I'm being LA Chelsea, I actually could just get lost in my own imagination with them.
And I feel actually more rested after that.
Yeah, I'm not like I think what you're doing what you say makes sense.
But this goes back to me
What my I asked before, like how as a parent who I grew up in a very different circumstance than you and had to basically be productive to get myself out of that
Oh yeah, for sure.
We're dealing with layers of trauma and uh like it's not that easy.
How do I then go from that to all of a sudden being able to play?
Like
I will say I'm very I'm good at playing with the kids, but it's usually doing something, like running around.
Yeah, you're not so good at let's say laying down and playing dolls with them or something.
No.
I very rarely can just sit there and do something with them.
One exercise I do, and folks at home can try and do this exercise, and you could, but I don't know if your brain would go there.
is just put a piece of paper down, have nothing on, no noise, no music, nothing, and grab a pen, close your eyes, just try and visualize
Being a child and try and imagine a time, and some people with trauma like you, you might not be able to, but try and imagine a time as a child where you were just simply having fun
Try and picture it and if you can, this is in therapy, I might get someone to draw it out.
Like a time when you in your body felt that feeling, that sensation.
of fun.
Because I think, I truly believe, I talked about this with a friend recently, that we forget how to have fun as adults, especially when life is so busy, so hard
And often the things that heal us now, or at least help us, are the same things that we did when we were a kid.
So I remember doing this exercise.
I've done it a few times over my life as a therapist
And the first time I did it, I ended up actually drawing a picture of a pool and me being in the pool.
Splashing and playing, swimming freely and being silly in the water.
And the thing that came up for me at that time was
Swimming.
But not swimming.
Like I used to swim laps, you know, to be fit.
Not swimming to do laps, but just swimming for the sake of just having fun.
And then the summer we
were away with the kids and there was a pool and we were just swimming and splashing and having fun.
And that was the first time in many years that I remember feeling that same feeling I felt as a kid.
And that was a really cool experience
And then another time I remember doing that same drawing and what came to mind was listening to music.
And not for the sake of anything, but just like dancing and listening to music with my family.
My parents would
had this like C D subscription so every month I think they'd be like sent a new C D Oh yeah.
It was like a Netflix for uh for CDs.
For CDs.
And so they'd always have these different CDs coming in and then we'd listen to it like on repeat.
But there's something about music that was really soothing to me as a child and I kind of lost that along the way, I think having kids and stuff.
I just kind of forgot about my love for music.
And so then for me another thing that was healing was like, you know what, maybe I'm gonna find some music that I like and not just listen to friggin' Baba Black Sheep all the time.
And I kind of stopped, like even letting the kids listen to that.
And I was like, you know what, we're just gonna listen to
some different music, music that I like for a while and then I found that healing.
So this can be a really good exercise to do to help you try and remember what was fun for you.
And Scott's actually doing it over here.
I see you drawing.
Terrible drawing, but you don't have to be good at drawing.
But for a lot of clients, it might be art
Maybe art was fun for you.
Maybe you really liked it.
And then someone once told you that you were bad at it, so then you never did art again.
But do it now.
Maybe get a canvas and get some paints and just do some art in your house
Maybe it was writing and then someone told you you got a bad paper back and you got a bad grade and you thought, Oh, I guess I'm not good at this.
Play doesn't have to be something you're good at.
Most things, when I'm playing with the kids, it's not like I'm not good at it, but it's an outlet.
It's meant to be fun.
What's going on for you over here, Scott?
I'm drawing my brother.
He and I would play war in our backyard.
Oh cute.
And he would hide behind like a cedar tree that we had beside the house.
Yeah.
And we would be running around the house.
And
Playing.
But it was always again running and doing stuff like that and hiding on each other and then we'd have cap guns that we get from the dollar store or something like that.
So he wan he and I would play that quite often.
So isn't it fascinating that what you like
Playing with your own kids is the same thing that you like to do with Yeah.
Your brother.
Hide and go seek and all that kind of stuff.
Also, this past weekend I went to uh my dad's house and found my old
Paintball gun.
And then I took that out and let our oldest daughter shoot a target in his backyard.
You're gonna have people wanting us to do an episode on guns.
The kids playing with guns.
Talking about calf guns, paintball guns, very controversial.
Is it?
Yes.
Oh.
Well I used to I used to play paintball.
Uh when I was so basically the uh older version of of war with yeah.
And then I would, again, it was a lot of running around.
I would play paintball, not every weekend, but probably every other weekend in high school.
So we found that back and then
Our uh oldest daughter was trying it and she's like, ooh.
And she loved how the paint splattered over uh my dad has a fire pit in the backyard, so she was shooting his fire pit.
Isn't that fascinating though?
Like the first memory that pops up for you is just running and chasing your brother, like having fun outside.
And isn't that the exact same thing that brings you the most joy with our kids?
Yeah, that would be the thing that I would do now.
Like going sledding is
Right now.
That's play.
Yeah, that's true.
I think you have more I think you have more play than you think.
Well no, I like I said at the beginning, I am more fun than you
But if you're talking about play for myself, I don't know that I do that much of that.
Yeah, but sometimes doing it with the kids is doing it for yourself.
Yeah, right.
Right.
So I think that's the other misconception is that play has to be this thing that you do on your own.
But I don't agree.
I think sometimes
Doing it with your kids can be just as healing.
But again, I feel like there are parents, people out there.
Like let's say I'm a parent that just
Doesn't want to do any of that.
Doesn't have time for that.
Doesn't have like feel I don't know, they don't want to go sledding.
Yeah.
Or they don't want to do puppets like you do or You gotta find what works for you.
If that's you
Truly try that exercise.
Like you see, Scott just did it, didn't take too long.
No.
And truly try that exercise and then ask yourself
How can I incorporate that?
So whatever that is, maybe it is swimming.
You're like just swimming resonates with me.
I'm like, okay, well then maybe you take your kids to the like even one child to the pool once a month or something like that and you just splash around and swim
So find whatever that was for you.
For me as a kid, it was a lot of playing Barbies.
It was a lot of writing plays and doing songs.
And so when our kids want to do that, of course I'm like keen to do it because that was all the stuff I liked
And as a kid, I didn't really like the rough and tumble play.
I didn't really like chase or anything like that, but you did.
And so that's why you're that dad who likes to do those things.
So you just gotta figure out what works for you
And what your play personality trademark.
No, I'm just kidding.
I literally just made that up on the spot.
What your play personality is.
So I have two last things that I want to talk about with you.
Uh the first is what types of activities do you do?
Mm-hmm.
And can you think of the different things that I do?
I didn't write those down.
Oh you did.
And then on top of that
What would you recommend for different like parents that are playful versus parents that are not playful?
Because just saying like find what works for you, I feel like is not that practical.
Well, I think to start with uh
the visualization exercise, if you can, just so that you can kind of understand where you found your fun when you were a child.
And I'd love to see your pictures.
So, you know, send them to me.
I would say start there, if you can, if you can get there.
If you can't get there, that's fine.
And then I would say the other thing is see playfulness as a skill.
A lot of parents, especially the ones who tried the puppet, which I'll talk about that first.
said I literally thought this I was gonna feel crazy just because I've never been playful before and just know you're gonna feel ridiculous.
But guess what?
Your kids are gonna love that because they are ridiculous all the time.
So
Let yourself feel ridiculous, let yourself feel silly and a little out of control, and notice how that feels more comfortable
over time.
Because the first time you do it, you're just gonna be embarrassed and you might feel like, oh my goodness.
I mean to be honest
I'm usually embarrassed for you.
Yeah, exactly.
But over time and you build your playfulness skill, it will feel more natural.
So again, like don't expect it to feel natural the first time you do it
Expect that you're gonna feel a little ridiculous, but just know that that's okay.
And then try a couple different things.
So I'll give you kind of a range of things that you can try, like that I like, and then we'll talk about some of the things that you like
Like so something that's so simple and is not necessarily gonna make you feel silly.
Let's say bath time is a struggle for your kids and they just hate the bath every single night.
Well guess what?
The bathroom can become a spa.
And kids love spas
So how do they even know what a spa is?
Well we tell them what a spa is, right?
Oh my goodness, I went to the spa once.
It was so fancy.
They had a candle lit and there was music going on and it was so fancy and your kids are like, oh, I must have this fancy thing.
You go, so tonight we're not doing bubble bath time.
We're doing a spa.
And then you simply like
A single candle.
Didn't you just light a tea light?
I just let a tea light.
I this I did this recently, right?
But this is something that doesn't involve a ton of like silly energy from you
You're just changing the thing that you're already doing, the bubble bath, and you're turning it into something that's really cool.
So maybe you dim the lights in your bathroom if that's a possibility, set up a candle or two.
Grab your phone, stick on Spotify or whatever, put some calming music on, but don't let your kids in.
They don't see it yet.
You fill up the bubble bath, you make it really bubbly
extra bubbles that night and then you make them line up at the door or however many kids you have and you say, Okay, welcome.
You make a new name for yourself.
You know, I'm not Jessica anymore.
I'm Mrs.
Sunshine
Or something, I don't know.
Hi, I miss the sunshine and I have to welcome you to my spa.
In the spa we're very quiet
Very mindful here.
And then I I give them a warm cloth that have already heated up in the bathwater and they come in.
We get undressed to go in the tub.
And all of a sudden, now it's not a power struggle.
Of course I want to be at the spa.
Right.
So that's like one very simple thing that you can do
that all of a sudden this was gonna be some power struggle and now it's this whole event that your kids are desperate to do and all you did was like light a candle and dim the lights.
Like it's so simple
So that's like a way that you can be playful with your kids without going over the top feeling silly.
I mean a very, very similar thing is you can just play hairdresser, like your child doesn't want to get their hair done
No problem.
Let me let me call the hairdresser and then I call you over.
You know, and you have some hairdresser name.
And uh this is uh you know Scotty
Scotty.
You know, you just have to be silly about it.
The kids would be like, Scotty.
Dad's name is Scotty.
Now you've been calling him Scotty.
It's so funny.
You know, and Scotty's gonna be your hairdresser today.
I specifically called him in because I knew you girls were having a hard day with your hair and I gave him this very special hairbrush.
Right?
Now all of a sudden you're doing the exact same thing.
You were gonna do their hair anyway before school.
But now it's fun, it's playful.
I'll give you one more like that that I've done recently.
Kids were struggling to brush their teeth that night.
No problem.
The toothbrush is actually a magic wand.
So the faster you brush your teeth, the longer you brush your teeth, you actually turn into a magical princess.
And they're like, what?
Yeah, it's crazy, girls.
If you keep brushing your teeth
you will turn into a princess.
And they go, Oh, okay.
And so they're brush, brush, brush with their teeth.
And I'm sitting there like, I can't believe it's actually happening.
You know, I'm pretending to just be an absolute shock.
I'm like
It's happening And they're looking in the mirror at you.
And they're looking in the mirror.
And it doesn't matter that they're not turning into a princess because we're in imagination land.
Anything goes.
I will say that they don't even bring up the fact that they turn into a princess anymore, but they desperately want to brush their teeth now.
Yeah.
We have totally changed their relationship with teeth brushing based on the magical wand as a toothbrush.
toothbrush trick.
And now they like beg us to brush their teeth and they decide what they turn into and they turn into it for like three, four minutes and then they forget.
So it's been a frog, it's been a horse, it's been a princess with the magical wand is the toothbrush in every night.
It's something different.
These are very simple things you can do.
It's just your normal day-to-day activities, and you just try and imagine, how can I make this fun?
And now all of a sudden you're reducing power struggles and connecting with your kids.
Yeah.
But then you could go a different level, and this is where Scott and I go sometimes in our own unique way.
So I like to do hand puppets and we've talked about this before, but in case this is your first episode, you're like Jesse keep
alluding to these hand puppets.
I have a whole family of hand puppets that has really escalated beyond And by hand puppets she means literally just her hand.
It's not any sock or anything that goes on her hand.
It's just her hand
I'm busy.
I like to keep it simple.
I'm not gonna go out and buy a whole bunch of hand puppets.
It's literally just my hand.
And various shapes in my hand.
So we've got Grumpy Sean, who's kind of where it started
We have grandma who doesn't have any teeth who looks like that.
Who do we have?
LA Chelsea.
She kind of just looks the same too, but she has a different voice.
Um they all have different personalities too.
And they all have different personalities.
Yeah, so this is where we can get really silly and crazy if you want to
So for example, LA Chelsea's a girls girl.
She's got a lot to say to girls.
We have three girls, right?
So if you have boys, maybe you want to have a different character.
But LA Chelsea loves girls.
She's very girly.
She's often disgusted by the things that the kids are doing.
Pretty much every time.
Anything they do, she's disgusted by.
And so then the kids and her will have discussions about
what they're doing and why and she'll ask them really thought-provoking questions and the kids will come up with answers that they're not gonna tell me, but they'll tell their girls girl LA Chelsea.
They'll tell her anything that's going on through their mind
Or the kids are having a a hard time, they need to talk to like a grandmother figure.
Well, Grandma Sean's there and she's very wise and she's got a lot to say.
The hand puppets have completely transformed, I think, our parenting in a really cool way.
Like not to be dramatic about it.
It's quite funny.
Yeah, we're on a long car ride and the kids are getting restless.
Oh, all of a sudden, you know, Dude Sean is back there and Dude Sean, you know, is is having
some troubles because he's really in love with LA Chelsea and you know, so there's this whole backstory.
But anyway, this is like what I love because I love writing.
I love making up stories, making up worlds.
So for me that's like a really fun kind of playfulness thing.
So we have, you know, the puppet family and it's a great it's also a really great way to reduce your own grumpiness.
Like if I'm in a really bad mood, I'll just bring out Grumpy Sean.
Grumpy Sean will be like, Why is it so loud in here?
The kids are like, Grumpy Sean
And so Grumpy Sean can say things that Grumpy, like actual mommy, can't say.
Yeah.
So that's pretty fun too.
So that's one of the more like in-depth
playfulness things that I do with the kids.
I also love to play like Barbies and and stuff like that with them.
And I always get my therapist brain out there.
So if I know they're struggling with something, I'll like all of a sudden make the Barbie struggling with that thing and just try and
you know, flush out some answers from them throughout Barbies, so that's fun.
But Scott does a lot of good stuff.
So Yeah, I would say I do some of those things, but it's more to a minimum.
One thing I love that you do is you really join their silly energy.
And I struggle with that because I get overwhelmed when it's like too loud and chaotic in the house.
But I feel like you do a really good job of like matching their silly, like if they're being ridiculous and like running around with them and chasing them, pretending to be a bear or whatever.
and then helping them like kinda get back to a place of calm.
Like I feel like you're really good at that.
Yeah.
So one thing that you do that I think
people would find really helpful is when you're ooh ooh.
Bluey character again.
It's a bluey character, but Scott will pretend to be like this giant baboon and it has worked really well, especially with like parental preference at bedtime.
So when the kids only wanted me to put them to bed.
that all of a sudden Scott would just transform into this monkey and just throw them over his shoulder.
They'd be like, I want mommy And he'd be like, ooh ooh
And then ooh-ooh ooh-ooh.
And then you would like grab our daughter and throw her over your shoulder and take her upstairs as like a giant monkey.
And all of a sudden it's not daddy putting her to bed.
It's ooh-ooh
And then eventually you're not oo anymore, but by then she's totally forgot that she was desperate for me to put her to bed.
Yeah.
And sometimes I just play the game Sack of Potatoes and I throw them over my shoulder like a sack of potatoes and bring them upstairs.
And they even something as simple as that they like.
Yeah.
I would say all of the things that I'm more playful, the way I play is through
Something that's active.
Yeah, you're a lot more active, like roughhousing with them and stuff.
Yeah.
Roughhousing, so we'll like wrestle or pretend karate or something like that.
Or we'll go sledding, which you don't really care for as much, but I love doing that
Scott likes to do all the things that overstimulate me to like the max degree.
So typically when he's fine with the kids is when I disappear and go isolate myself in the bedroom.
Yep.
What else do I think?
So we're very different.
Oh like during the summer we'll or spring, summer, and fall, we'll I'll be the one that goes biking with them or hiking.
I mean you'll do hiking too.
I'll do hiking too
But it's all the active stuff that I do with them.
Yeah, you're very active.
You'd be more like, I'm gonna pick you up, pretend you're an airplane, and like bring you into your bed or
Yeah, I'm gonna be ooh-ooh and be this giant monkey or carry you upstairs, or I'm gonna chase you around the house and pretend like I'm gonna eat you and
get out all their energy that way.
And that's like really important too.
Kids need that kind of active playfulness as well.
And I notice how much more bonded the kids are to you when you do stuff like that
like that.
But I will say something I've noticed I think you've done this a few times is the books and candles.
Oh yep.
So it's
Maybe not playfulness, but just a really nice bonding activity that you do with the kids.
And you tend to do that when you notice they're feeling a little disconnected from you.
If you can describe that.
I will plan far ahead of time with them, like earlier in the day, if I've noticed that they're wanting you more than me or they're sad or something like that.
I will tell them ahead of time tonight before you go to bed
A little bit early we're gonna get ready and then after we've gotten ready for bed we're gonna go down to the dining room and we're gonna turn off all the lights on the main level and we're going to light a whole bunch of candles and we're gonna read books in the candlelight.
Mm-hmm.
And that's like the best possible thing for them.
They love that for some reason.
I feel like you throw on a candle.
Like that's another hack that I have.
Is you just throw on a candle, like dinner.
My parents used to do this where all of a sudden we're having like fancy dinner and they would just put candles on and turn off the lights and boom, all of a sudden dinner is fancy and it's like the coolest thing.
You can literally put five T lights on and that's the fanciest thing to them.
Yeah, exactly.
And I remember my parents doing that and being like, Oh
It's like a fancy dinner night.
Like it's the coolest thing in the world, right?
And now I see it.
I'm like, oh literally, it was like pizza by candlelight.
So just lighting a candle, it's like so often it's the simple things
And that's not you being passive, it's you just speaking your child's language and that bonds you to your child, it makes you feel closer and more attached, which will help them listen to you when you're not being playful.
So it actually is like
It doesn't even just help in the moment.
It helps you connect with your child on the steeper level and it will help you throughout the rest of your day.
Yeah, and I mean to the parents that think
Or feel that if you're too playful, then all of a sudden that the amount of structure or discipline goes away.
I think it just takes your child a few minutes to get out of that
That's the energy that they're in, the mindset that they're in.
So they have to change from that.
It's not as though it's always like that.
Yeah, and one thing I think I was talking about you being really good at this.
I think I'm like decent at this too
But it's taking their silly energy, joining it, like you have to pretty much mirror their emotions in order to join their world.
But then once you've got them, once you're mirroring them
you can take the lead and slowly mirror them back to calm.
Yeah.
I do that at bedtime like almost every night.
Like we go crazy.
Like
Everyone's silly, we're wild, and joining their silly energy and we're being whatever, magical ones, princesses, the whole toothbrush thing, and then
I have them.
I know I've got them connected with me.
And then I'll slowly move my energy to like a calmer, okay, now we're gonna go into bed and let's say goodnight to Mr.
Hops, like little frog, you know
And then as I move myself to calm because they're already joined with me, then they move themselves to calm too.
And so I think sometimes we forget that to get them to calm, we first have to join their energy and connect with them, and then we can move them there
Right.
The last thing I wanted to mention was I think one thing that I'm very good at is not taking myself too seriously around.
Oh yeah, you can't.
Right.
Like I think some parents might be a very good thing.
Yeah.
And there are times where they know that I'm the leader, and there are other times where they know I'm being
a bit of a pest and then all of a sudden I become the stinker buddhist, according to our our middle daughter.
That's the
It's a cute term that she used.
Oh daddy, he's the stinker buttist.
Yeah, instead of a stinker butt, he's the stinker buttist.
So the most the biggest stinker butt.
But I do notice that especially I would say in the last year and a half you've become much sillier with the kids.
Yeah, I mean before that there was
some other things going on in our in our life that's distracting.
Stress has decreased, your home more, like all that kind of stuff.
And I notice that your connection with the kids is stronger than ever, especially with the silliness.
Like a s especially in our one of our kids who maybe gravitates more towards me.
But I find when you engage her in silliness, like she's
Not that she was not warmed up to you, but I feel like her connection with you is so much stronger now.
Yeah.
And it went from her only wanting you to put her to bed to now she told me last night
That it was your turn to put her to bed.
But then tomorrow I want daddy, you to put me to bed.
Yeah, exactly.
And it used to be like
If it wasn't mommy, it was tears, meltdown, huge struggle.
And I think the way that you won her over was through playfulness.
Yeah, for sure.
I saw how well that worked.
So that's like maybe a really nice note to end it on.
Like if you have are feeling this disconnection from one of your kids or any of your like or your child in general
See how you can connect with them through play.
It might feel uncomfortable and there might be some tears.
Like when you started being playful with her, she still wanted mommy.
Yep.
But over time you built this trust
And we need love, of course, in the parent-child relationship, but we also need trust.
And I think when you can build that trust through speaking their language through play.
For sure.
This discussion has made me think that we need to create a few freebies on our website that just like some playfulness, ideas, or props.
Yeah, I have tons of Instagram posts on it, but it would be nice to maybe just have some prompts, some easy things.
Or we can create some blog posts or some freebies or something.
Yeah.
We do have our playfulness toolkit, which is Yeah, right.
Yep.
Yeah.
Great.
Well thanks so much for joining us.
This was super fun.
I really enjoyed this episode and I hope you did too.
Definitely let Scott and I know if you're trying some of these tools and if you do the visualization, would love to see pictures.
And we'll talk to you next week.
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