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The Senior Hub Podcast is a resource hub for planning and caring well for your aging parents and loved ones. This podcast tackles everything from data, to key terms, to personal stories, to sacred moments, to tricky family dynamics.
Join hosts Daniel Alexander and Rebecca Hill as they engage their guests, and each other, on this most important topic. We are all learning about this topic as we get older. Let's do it together.
Find us at www.theseniorhub.com
Hello, and welcome to the Senior Hub Podcast, where we have conversations to help families navigate aging and the decisions that come with it because no one should have to walk this journey alone. We're glad you're here. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Well, hi, and welcome. I am, Rebecca Hill, chief care strategist for The Senior Hub. And today, we're sitting down with, Kim Patterson, CEO of Oak Hill Management, and Andy English, our founder here at The Senior Hub and visionary venturer. And the topic of our discussion today is really Kim's story of how she and her husband Pat came to initiate and start their own care planning process in their 40s and how unique and unusual that is, and because we all are so familiar here, we're just gonna have a conversation about the stories that led to that. Kim and Andy have known each other for quite some time.
Speaker 2:Workmates, fellow visionaries. Andy, you're gonna guide a lot of the conversation today.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, Kim, are you ready for this?
Speaker 4:No. There's no way I'm ready for this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's right. So to Rebecca's point, you know, we've known each other now probably, I don't know, fifteen years roughly.
Speaker 4:Crazy.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And Kim's the CEO of our management company that that oversees, all of our commercial real estate assets we own. And, she's been with us for about six years, roughly, which is kinda wild.
Speaker 4:We made it, Andy. We did it.
Speaker 3:So, yeah. So I know I know Kim to be, like Rebecca said, a planner, you know, very structured, organized, and all those good things. But this whole idea of her having a binder and a plan did not shock me, of course, but I wanted to talk about it. So so just wanna jump in. Give me, like, when when did this actually come into me?
Speaker 3:This So I'm sitting here with the miners in my lap, and it's got... How many taps does it have? Not too many. Maybe six. Did this first get put together?
Speaker 4:I believe it was probably around 2000... Somewhere between 2005, 'eight, and officially like 2010, Pat and I were getting ready to go out of the country and just thought, if anything should happen, we wanted to make sure our two boys knew where things were and things like that. But prior to that, my father died suddenly. In helping our mom, it kind of transitioned in that way. My sister and brother, we all have different roles and mine was trying to help her with the financial piece and organizing that kind of thing.
Speaker 4:And then also, Pat's father had a big black binder when he was transitioning into retirement things like that. So I had seen it. I was in the middle of it, and so that kind of all started it.
Speaker 3:Really? Okay. Yeah. So what was in his binder?
Speaker 4:What's interesting, I was thinking about that. So Pat has two sisters, and as Mr. Patterson was retiring and the things as he was planning, he was a planner too. He was an attorney in Raleigh and very organized, And his black binder included things like details of who to call, financial information, and the bigger piece honestly was the things in their home. At that time, antiques were a thing
Speaker 3:and
Speaker 4:family history, and so a lot of things have been passed down generation to generation, and so he had asked all three children what were the top three things that meant a lot to them in the house and so they did that and picked things and then so he put that in the book, but each thing had a backstory. We bought this when we traveled in Amsterdam or this was your great great grandfather. So it had the logistical things and it had those things that were just very special to the family. Mhmm. So it it it combined quite a few things.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's what's fascinating to me because I've never heard of this before. So people having this much of a plan.
Speaker 3:Like, yeah, I got really... I mean, I know you don't wanna expect... Accept this, but, like, you're very unique that you have this much together.
Speaker 4:It seems
Speaker 3:Like, I think most people don't do it. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Particularly in their forties. I mean, in your forties, you are managing kids, and you're building your career, and you're just go, go, go, but you had some insight and enlightenment.
Speaker 4:Or weirdness, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. I think those things helped and I think sitting at the table with my mom after my dad died very suddenly, my sister's a great caregiver so she's that nurse type. My brother took care of the tangible things at the home.
Speaker 4:And then she and I were sitting there and she started to do some bills and I could tell she was a little flustered. And so I said, Mom, is there any way that I could help you with this? I'm happy to do that. So dad had one file box of all their things and we just went through them and then I started doing her bills and it led from there. So I saw that and then Mr.
Speaker 4:Patterson's. And so by the time 2010, when Pat and I, that stage, was like, Oh, maybe I need to put something together just in case.
Speaker 3:So Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And did your... Would you say, like...
Speaker 3:So going back to your your mom's story, is she... Like, was their stuff as, like, kinda comprehensive as yours? Like, did they also have, like, a lot of, like, other things together, or did you also have to, like, piece together stuff for them too? Like, you know how you've kinda pieced a bunch of things together, like, because your dad passed suddenly. Like, did he, like, have stuff kind of together, or did you have to piece it together for for her of like kind of what?
Speaker 3:Yeah,
Speaker 4:it was kind of a combo and you gotta take into consideration the context simpler times, right? We are simple people and my parents, they were born in the late 20s, early 30s and so think about that time.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure, yeah.
Speaker 4:Everything was more simple and cash was cash and you just didn't have a lot of stuff. So theirs was simple and seriously, was just one file box and really most everything was in there.
Speaker 3:Oh okay.
Speaker 4:And it just wasn't complicated. So now I feel like where we all are now is just there's all the things. So we didn't have to look for things, it was more an understanding of.
Speaker 2:Although I think a unique part of your story is how the dads kinda hid money. Oh. You mentioned this as we were talking in another interview space.
Speaker 4:Talk about Well, again, you think about when they were born, I remember walking through Sears with my dad when he had to go apply for a credit card they were now requiring two IDs and all people had then was a license. And so I remember walking through and he's like, why do we need a credit card? Because they grew up, if you had cash, then you did these things. If you didn't have cash, then you didn't do those things. So cash was just a thing and they were frugal.
Speaker 4:We didn't have tons. We never went without. As I look back, I think, I bet there's some tighter times than I realize, but we didn't know that. But it wasn't felt. But he had this thing where he hid $6,000 in a sock behind a mirror.
Speaker 3:That's amazing.
Speaker 4:It just cash, like we were gonna have just be prepared in that way. In fact, when we sold the home place, my siblings and I were like, has anybody checked behind mirrors, like look up in the attic, like So look under that was the perspective we had. So it was just more simple. In my book, there's nothing wild about this book. It's very simple.
Speaker 4:The goal was just hear some information and a little bit of our story.
Speaker 3:Okay, so tell me, okay, tell me again, like, are the key components of your book and, and why, like the different components of this notebook and why did you do choose the, like, you know, the different tabs or the different things that you did?
Speaker 4:Yeah. The things you included. Right. So it has it has evolved through the years. Initially, it was, hey, if something happened to Pat or to me or both, did we have the information of what we needed for passwords, bank account, house information, the titles to the cars, all those just tangible things I just threw in there.
Speaker 4:Really the why at that point, which has honestly changed some, but the why at that point was, boys, I don't want you to have to scrounge around and we didn't have to do that so I don't know why that was in my head. I just wanted to prepare them, hey, they know it's in the safe, if anything happens, here's where you go. And honestly, Pat takes care of the home and does all these other things. I'm the one about the book, so he's like, Honey, if something happens to you, what do I do? Go to the book and call the boys, you'll be fine.
Speaker 4:Wow. And he's putting in stuff from the house, all the things I would need to know if something happened to him first. So we were trying to help each other and just not be... I don't like the word burden, but just so the boys had what they needed so they could take the next steps.
Speaker 3:Okay, so that's how it started.
Speaker 4:That's how it started.
Speaker 3:We were just thinking about the two of them.
Speaker 4:At that time because they were high school and college. And so the tabs in there, I'm sentimental, so my first tab says all three boys and that's my husband and I my two have a letter to each one of them. And that's just, if you take anything, I don't care if you take anything else away, that is important to me. Then the rest has just keynotes. Here's the first person to call.
Speaker 4:Here's our bank account numbers. Here are passwords. Those types of things, just general information. Then there are documents like birth certificates, our marriage license, titles to car, you know, all those document types of things. Then there's some things in there about retirement and life insurance and long term care and plans.
Speaker 4:We did this recently of just what would happen to us, we both want to be cremated and we didn't want the boys to have to think, we're not going wear mom and dad around our neck, what are we going to do? So we have a plan in there if they want to do it. If they don't, it's fine. It's just what are some things we can plan and do so they don't have to think it? Because when you lose a parent, there's a lot of emotion going on, and you can make some decisions that you maybe wouldn't make later or maybe you would, or maybe some you missed.
Speaker 4:So we're trying to get those pieces out.
Speaker 3:And you have power of attorney. I see that and all this stuff. Like, how did you know how to do that?
Speaker 4:This was, really interesting how it came about. It may have been in 2010 when we were, you know, going across the pond and wanted to make sure we had everything in place. It was something with the credit union for like $395 Like your will, your power of attorney, and your medical directive. And so we sat down with them and went through it and we have documents for me and for Pat and the boys have digital copies of them. Amazing.
Speaker 4:And just quickly like that, because again, we're simple. We don't, you know, and so it just, it was just a great option at that time, and so we could go ahead and put that in there. So it
Speaker 2:was more of a stumble upon
Speaker 4:It it was.
Speaker 2:As you were planning to just go overseas, and you just wanted to make sure that just in case
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2:So that you don't have to fly separately. Right. For sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Okay. So that's been fifteen, sixteen years. Mhmm. So what...
Speaker 3:What's... You said has changed. Mhmm. So this notebook has changed since you started in 2010?
Speaker 4:Yes. Initially, there are just a couple things in there. And then, again, the intention was this tight notebook, here's like, what to do. Now it has shifted more. I do update it.
Speaker 4:I try to update it at least quarterly just with passwords and different things. But what's been a growth area for me in just this silly little notebook is, these are great things to do, but how do we share our story of what life has meant to us and how we view life? And so that has in there, I have seven journals for my seven grandbabies, they're in the safe. I didn't bring all those. So those, you can take this book, don't take my journals for my grandchildren, but it it has involved to allowing conversation of what's important, where we've had scars, all the things.
Speaker 3:So wait. How how explain that? So wait. How does that... Are you saying that you've written stuff and inserted in here, like you've written like stories?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:And you've inserted in this notebook?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:Okay. Explain that to me. How did you, like, me an, like you don't have to tell me the story, but like what's an example of like a framework of something out related or something?
Speaker 4:Sure. So a couple things. One are our valuables, if you will. These are totally valuables, meaning what means a lot to us, not dollar wise. So I have listed with each grandchild, this is something I think Sybil would like based on who she is and this is something we have and would like for her to have this if Dan and Philip both agree.
Speaker 4:So I have specific things like that that mean a lot to us, something my dad brought from Korea from the war, a vase that has meant a lot, I don't want it thrown in the trash. So those kind of things. And then our story has been more of when the Lord calls me home, here's some ideas of a celebration of life service. Here's what some verses that are special to me. I don't care about my life so much as I want you to know God's hand in it, His story, things like my backstory of how the Lord changed my life.
Speaker 4:So there's this perspective of what's bigger than the do's on these pages, but more of the why. And that's been what has, as we've gotten older and you look back and you're like, okay, if this one notebook tells our story, it's gotta be more than make sure you call John
Speaker 3:to eat Right, so
Speaker 4:that is what has evolved more over time, and as you get older, you begin to think that way and reflect that way, and if there's one message I could leave these knuckleheads of ours, what would that be?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, I feel it's interesting. Like, I feel like you kind of articulated, like, I think the main reason why people don't do these is because like nobody wants to think about it. Nobody wants to think about dying.
Speaker 4:For
Speaker 3:sure. But for you, like, like you said, you have a different perspective, the eternal perspective on like what what is happening much bigger than just you. Yeah. And that's why this is not as daunting, I guess, or however the right way to say it is for you.
Speaker 4:But you know what's interesting, we had one of our sons, both of them were interested and they know that the binder's in the safe. But one came to us, it's been, I don't know, maybe six months ago, the younger one, and just said, Hey, you know, I know this might, I don't know if this is awkward or uncomfortable, but do you want to talk about the binder? Right. And honestly it was like, of course, but it was kind of like, oh, are we in that stage that they think this binder's getting ready to happen? Am I really there?
Speaker 2:Know, so... They want to get oriented.
Speaker 3:Maybe I'll look worse than I think.
Speaker 4:I know, right, for sure, and so I'm like, so it did kind catch me a little and so Pat and I talked about it and we were like, Of course. And so we tried to do it a couple times with the binder and it just, they're raising a family of three now anyway, it's hard to even finish the sentence, but we were visiting them not too long ago and we just sat down at their house, kids were asleep and I can't remember if I mentioned it and I said, Philip, I'm sorry dad and I didn't bring the binder but if y'all want to talk about it or maybe he mentioned it, I can't remember, but I thought it was really cool to have his wife, sweet Maggie, too. So the four of us just talked. I didn't have the binder, which was interesting because the was to go, the whole point was to go through the binder, but it was more of an opportunity just to share what's in there, broadly speaking, and share our story. And that was a huge gift to us that day, for me, for Pat especially, because we began to share, it was something specific, two things.
Speaker 4:First of all, Philip goes, Mom, why do you keep cash in the safe? I went back to the SOC. I said, Because I grew up, you always had cash, a little bit of cash ready. We have different denominations. Like we just have a little bit in the safe.
Speaker 4:He goes, But it's not making any money for you. So he works for a banker.
Speaker 3:He's a banker, yeah.
Speaker 4:He trained him up well. And I loved that because that's how he was thinking and I got to share, well, dad had money in a sock, but you know, I feel like it's important to always cash available. So there's that piece. And then as we went through, okay, here's what we think, you know, well, when both of us are retired and what we think our income might look like and all these different things, As we went through some stuff, we started talking about tithing and ministry, and it was a beautiful way. Remember Philip saying this, he goes, So I see where that's very important and what you want to be able to do and still be a part of.
Speaker 4:So it was a beautiful way to share more than call somebody and check this box. It was, ah, just another way to share God's story in it.
Speaker 2:So this is really interesting because I think the the larger takeaway that I'm hearing in your story is that what was once tactical, administrative, triggered by wanting peace for your own family
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And your gift of organization being really just... That's what you do in the relationship between you and Pat. But now it's it's become something that you are you are mapping out a legacy for your children and grandchildren, and now you're having normalized conversations about sacred things, which is, you know, the holistic vision at The Senior Hub, but don't you want to plant that into your children, the next generation that, hey, you know, getting older is also about passing on the gems of understanding that we received from our own parents. You know, your dad's sock is now your, you know, cash in the safe. I mean, there are certain things that you just wanna take away and pass on, not just physically, but in in ideal.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And so you're having those conversations, and that's really cool.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And to hold it loosely.
Speaker 3:Is there any any anything about this you want to do or add to, or you wish you could do differently with it now? Or, or is there anything else that you're like, oh, if I could add this or add that, or I would have started earlier? Is there anything... Like, I don't know. Is there anything that you look back and, like, how you created all this and kind of the process that you would change about it?
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 4:One of the things I think Pat and I would have done along the way is started earlier when our children were in our homes, when in our house, because on paper, some of the things don't make sense. Like, God's hand in His, how He cares for us, I worked for a nonprofit for seventeen years and let's just say the budget was Different. Yeah. And it was awesome and I remember sitting on the, we had a dam where there was a lake and I remember sitting there when I first started there, I had taken like a 60% pay cut with a job I had and I'm sitting there going, Lord, what are we doing? I, but I remember my husband, is one of those sweet slices we call sweet slices of life.
Speaker 4:When I took that role, remember standing in our driveway before that and the thought about taking this role on a nonprofit. I remember him putting his hands on my shoulders and saying, Kim, if the Lord has called you to do this, he will provide. Dan was starting that next week at Wake Forest and it didn't make sense that the boy went through school except God's hand. If you looked at our P and L at that time, our balance sheet, it didn't make any sense. I wish we had talked more about that as they were growing up because they were in really tight times and they were hard, beautiful times.
Speaker 4:And so I think some of that now I'm trying to capture here, and the boys know it. But anyway, all that to say, I think I would have started, maybe not the notebook earlier, but just the conversations earlier. But you also have to realize the context of time again, like my parents growing up, things were private. Their spiritual life, their finances, it was just more private, that generation. And so then we began to do a little more, and now the generation's hunting, they're a thing that people don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's all out for the whole world
Speaker 4:to see. Right. I that, I don't know anything tangibly per se, but just more of, opportunity to help build it or know it together earlier probably.
Speaker 2:Sacred conversations, we call it here. Yeah. Like prioritizing, having those seed planting conversations where you're talking about the why behind how things developed and built over time and the details in the story of how you made the decision and how God moved in that decision. It's really important legacy work.
Speaker 4:For sure. And the boys were already talking about that. Interesting. So after we had talked with Philip and Maggie, Pat and I both contacted Dan to say, Hey, look, we just want you to know, we weren't excluding them, we just happened to have this conversation with them and we want to have it with Dan and Brooke. And I'll never forget it, Dan texts back and he goes, Philip's already called me, we're good.
Speaker 4:We're good. So your children are probably, they're already talking about it maybe, I don't know, ours were, and I appreciate this so much about them. Think, I don't know if they were thinking, oh no, we're gonna have to take care of mom and dad like next week, you know, or they were just trying to understand like you know how to plan, are we gonna, they're gonna move in with that, like all the things. So I'm not sure from where they were coming, why they wanted the conversation. Kidding, but anyway, they're already talking about it, and so it was just a nice natural conversation to have.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And what about how did grandkids change this? Did it change anything in here once grandkids came along or no? I actually thought that's what you were gonna say that changed it.
Speaker 4:Look, I have seven grandbabies I love. I have two boys, like don't be messing with my boys.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it didn't change it, it added. Okay. Right? Yeah. Nothing changed per se.
Speaker 3:I know. It's just funny. Like my anticipation of what you said was like, oh, from when I had kids to now having grandkids and having grandkids is what changed it. But really what changes more the story and really getting into the depth and, you know, the why behind it, not just the what and the tactical, like, oh, here's all the check. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's been the biggest thing for me.
Speaker 2:So that, begs the question for me. Do you have a cadence about how often you revisit or, you know, I mean, as the pragmatist that you are, you've got... You you probably think about the timeline of yearly annual review or I mean, how do you guys approach that? And do you approach it with the kids?
Speaker 4:Yes. So obviously a lot of this is digital and boys have some of it, some they don't. I want it digital as well, but right now it's still that old school of tangible that's locked in there. I know about that.
Speaker 2:So there's no like annual meeting Yeah,
Speaker 4:we do have, we have an annual meeting with people who like investment wise. Sure. So there are pieces there. I update things as I think about them, but for sure I try to do it quarterly. Say my unwind place is gonna sound crazy, I have an office at home.
Speaker 4:We took a guest room and he built me this great big desk. I have a whiteboard. I have a chair, like, for journaling. Like, that's my happy place. So I'm constantly
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:I weird out on updating things.
Speaker 2:And I I think it should be noted. It's in a beautiful, like, leather, know? How do
Speaker 3:you do the digital storage of stuff? Like what, how do you do that?
Speaker 4:Well, different ways. I mean, like the legal things like the will and the directive and all of that, we had actually sent to the boys just email. Yeah, just say have how that. The others, I mean, I have an external hard drive. Some of them are Google Sheets.
Speaker 4:I haven't really dived in as deeply yet for the whole digital piece yet, because some of the stuff, I mean you need original, you need your birth certificate, all those things, so I haven't really set on how want
Speaker 3:So the digital right now is just a mix of like, got a hard drive and then some stuff's been emailed and
Speaker 4:so yeah. Okay.
Speaker 3:But they don't necessarily have to have the digital, like everything would be okay. Right. Yeah. That's great.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 4:It's been interesting. I think as we've looked at, in fact, it's ironic today, maybe because we were doing this, Pat's at home updating all the home stuff of just, because he has it all in his head and he has it on pieces of paper here and there and he's like, okay, I know I need to put something in there. And so he's just putting, if something were to happen to him and all of a sudden I'm left with our house, what do I do? Do I know where to turn off the water? Do I know the panel?
Speaker 4:Like just
Speaker 3:something to speak,
Speaker 4:stuff like that, right away.
Speaker 2:It's just a great rule in partnership to know, you know, where are all the core things and who's contributing what when. You all sound like you have it delineated, you know, perfectly. Guys have
Speaker 4:I don't. No. Please, please, no. We're train wrecks, please understand that. We have great intentions and sometimes it happens and just sometimes it doesn't, but I just think reflecting back on all four parents, they all had different stories of when the Lord took them home and we just, we learned so much through that, even how to care for them, how to make plans for them, conversations with siblings, like all
Speaker 3:the pieces. Too? Stuff about your parents? No. Okay.
Speaker 4:No. But those all were factors in just thinking through what were ways to make sure, like, we could could be as as prepared as we could. They're gonna be, you know, things the boys will have to think through, but all four parents were different situations, and so how we had to navigate through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you drew from their stories, and they were kind of the catalyst for you to begin thinking about what you wanted to do for yourself and the legacy you wanted to leave, the journals.
Speaker 4:Yes, and I will just say the specific things you need to do when a parent is transitioning to assisted living or memory care or dies suddenly, those types of things. I just remember navigating through those with my siblings and Pat with his siblings. And thankfully we just had, we just, we had a great group of everybody was on the same page, but what we had to navigate through to find places that, you know, did this fit for mom? We moved mom here after all her years in Charlottesville, all these things. And the hardest part is that, and you've talked about it, is the transition from, I'm not the child anymore, I am now the parent for my parent.
Speaker 4:And so, one of the things too, in all of this I've thought about as our parents have now gone, is understanding their shoes at that
Speaker 2:time. That
Speaker 4:has resonated with me later because we didn't know what they were experiencing. They were 80, 90, 77. We didn't know and so we're in the thick of life trying to raise children and work all the things. So I would just encourage people to, where there are resources and things, it's so helpful because we had to do all of that on our own. But we had each other to do it, which was great.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so the other takeaway I'm gathering from you is that, you wish you would have started the conversations earlier with your family. So imperfect action leads to momentum. So just taking any step, is probably a step in the right direction if this is something you wanna be intentional about and, and just begin creating. Like, it's just steps.
Speaker 2:Build momentum. Build into these sacred conversations you may not have had otherwise. That's been a real gift.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for doing this, and thanks for letting me see the Notebook.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 3:I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:This is awesome.
Speaker 1:For joining us today. If this conversation helped, share it with someone who needs it. And remember, wherever you are on this journey, The Senior Hub is here to be your partner for getting there. We'll see you next time.