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What helps people move beyond pain and limitation, build resilience, and keep doing the things that give life meaning?
The Power of Doing What Matters is hosted by Dr. Clayton Skaggs, founder and CEO of the Central Institute for Human Performance and author of the book that inspired the show. For more than three decades, Dr. Skaggs and his team have worked at the intersection of persistent pain, rehabilitation, movement, and human performance. His career has included years of study with pioneering Czech neurologists Vladimir Janda and Karel Lewit, service on postdoctoral and research faculties at eight universities, published clinical research, and work with people ranging from those facing unresolved pain to elite athletes, military professionals, and executives.
Dr. Skaggs and his team have found that the best stories and learning come from the patients and clients. Each episode will combine stories from and about real-life experiences with clients, practitioners, athletes, researchers and others. Episodes combine practical knowledge, lived experience, and a CIHP Insight—a short reading that opens a larger conversation about the mind, body, and the choices that shape our capacity. Reading, contemplation and learning.
The conversations are educational and are not a substitute for personalized medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
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Jim George: They're just fluid, they're relaxed and then they contract all together and then they relax again and, you know, contrast that with the average amateur golfer who is squeezing that club as tight as they can, who is tight all over the place throughout the whole swing. It's just a, a really huge contrast between the people who are able to regulate their nervous system and perform at a level and those that are trying too hard and not letting the, the process just happen.
Clayton Skaggs: Welcome to another audio podcast at The Power of Doing What Matters, where we explore the power of doing what matters through conversations with clients and team members and others from around the country, from around the world I'm Clayton Skaggs, [00:01:00] and today we get to talk to one of our key team members here at the institute, a fella who's worked with us here, and me particularly, for a long time, Dr.
Jim George. Jim, really great to have you on the podcast today.
Jim George: Appreciate you having me on. I've been looking forward to this, and I've enjoyed listening to the prior ones, so this is this is great.
Clayton Skaggs: Yeah. Yeah. We've, Thank you, and, and we've had a long journey together. I was, I was looking at the timeline ahead of this conversation and I...
It, it, it has been a, a good while that we've worked together. I, it kind of dates us a little, me quite a bit- ... me quite a bit more than you. I'm, I'm gonna chalk it up to a, a long time of knowledge and experience, Yes, versus just getting older, I guess. But, gosh, yeah, you, [00:02:00] you were a, student when I was teaching at the university, then you became, an intern and then helped me teach the classes there.
You've, you've been part of our, hospital clinics and, helped, helped lead those NIH grants. Gosh, well, World Series. We've worked together with so many, athletic, clients and groups, elite military, I mean, professional golfers. It just, it just goes on and on. And, you know, mostly, mostly good stuff, right?
All the, all the time.
Jim George: Oh, absolutely. Great stories, great memories, and, still learning, but all those, interactions have, have certainly, shaped my, approach to patient care and, yeah, it's been a, been a fun journey for sure.
Clayton Skaggs: Yeah, so, so let's... So at the institute [00:03:00] there, so it's, 22, 23 years, right?
That you've been part of the program and now a partner, with us there. Is that right? Is that, that-
Jim George: That is correct. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm at my... This is my, 22nd year, and, blown by. You know? It's, it's, it's hard to, sort of think about that, that it's been two decades but, yeah, we're, we're, we're sitting here.
It's, 22nd year in.
Clayton Skaggs: Really, really great and, and, you have just been a, just a pillar of our work over, over the years and, you know, I was, I was thinking about that much time with, with, with one person. I, I think the The average marriage is, is around eight years in, in America right now. And, and, and, partnerships are less than five that, that, that they exist.
So we're, we're doing okay to, to hang out [00:04:00] and, and tolerate, each other. I think, certainly probably you tolerating me, more than the other way as, at least my wife, she, she, she shares that. But, but so I, I think that that's, that really speaks highly of, the work you do, the character you have, and, so really grateful for that.
Jim George: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
Clayton Skaggs: So, so today's topic is poise, and I, I think, you know, it, it really is a, a good one for you to be on because you've, you've, you've, you've seen a lot of situations where the poised individual is, is the one that, that really recovers, the one that, as, as an athlete, you've seen-- we've seen so many of those, those athletes that sometimes because they're poised, because they're relaxed more of the time, they actually recover [00:05:00] faster.
But also in our, our other client populations, the, the-- even the pregnancy population, the, the more relaxed the, they are as they engage their pain recovery or, or their situation, the, the better they, they come out of it. And, so, so any, any story along that line?
Jim George: Well, you know, this morning, Clayton, it's funny, we have the, the Open Championship on downstairs and watching the, the golfers.
And I know in the, the poise chapter, you know, you talk about, um, you know, the, the tennis players and some of the UFC fighters and how they're able to, you know, contract and relax and, and stay poised. And, and I always think about, the study, I know you're very aware of it, of, of golfers and the differences between professional and amateur golfers, and obviously there's, there's many differences.
But the one study where the professional golfers, when they [00:06:00] looked at their muscle contraction and had all these electrodes on them, how relaxed they are during that swing until the point of contact, with that ball. They're just fluid, they're relaxed, and then they contract all together, and then they relax again.
And you, you know, contrast that with the average amateur golfer who is squeezing that club as tight as they can, who is tight all over the place throughout the whole swing. It's just a, a, a really huge contrast between the people who are able to regulate their nervous system and perform at a level, and those that are, that are trying too hard and not letting the, the process just happen.
Clayton Skaggs: Yeah. That's, that's a really good, really good, analogy of, of that, of that process. And, and of course- one of the, the most significant of, of, of those studies is, is, Stu McGill's, our colleague that, that we worked with for a long time and, and, he's the one who, [00:07:00] who did a lot of that study, EMGs on the individuals and, and that, that relaxation all the way up to the, the point of contact, which is, what we're gonna review again from this, this essay today where, Malik Tillman in that kick, really exhibited that.
He was just strolling up to that soccer ball, right before the kick, and then kicks the thing 65, 70 miles an hour. It's, it's, it was-- it's just extraordinary. And, and so the, the, the message that, that we, we, we try to convey to, to athletes as, as we work with them on performance, but also to clients and patients trying to m- move to recovery of pain or, or, or troubles is, is to be that relaxed as they engage their, their rehabilitative performance or be that relaxed throughout their day as they maybe [00:08:00] bump into, some signals of, of pain, or limited movement.
And, and so any thoughts on, on how you, how that, how you, you relate that to, to clients or patients?
Jim George: Yeah, it's, you know, it's a really difficult thing for, for patients to do because as we know, stress and pain tends to lend itself towards tension. And in, in most cases, we need to move that person to a more relaxed state.
And, we have lots of techniques that, that help with that, obviously the, the respiration and a lot of the, the breathwork we do. But one of the things that, you know, I think about i- in the human body is as we're trying to reduce tension i- in these folks, think about one of the, the tried and true techniques that, that you and I do and, and just a lot of individuals that do manual work do, these, these contract-relax techniques, right?
You get the person on the table, you get them to [00:09:00] relax, you have them contract a muscle, and then relax again. And you're, you're actually able to, affect their nervous system and, and lengthen and relax that muscle and, and get, get a more relaxed state in that area versus these aggressive forms of, of therapy or stretching that, that, that folks do.
So one of the tenets of the human body is to contract and relax to get, to get relaxation. A- and so, I, I always tell patients on my side of the fence not hurting, it's, it's always easy to say, "Hey, I just, I need you to find some, some periods where we can get our legs up and relax and, and move them to that state."
It, it's really difficult but we know as, as we started this podcast, we're, this decades of experience, we, we know that's what we need to, to get them to. We need to, to move them in that direction.
Clayton Skaggs: Absolutely. Now that- That con- contract relax, application that, that [00:10:00] we often perform in our manual techniques is a really good example of this.
I, I hadn't, I hadn't really thought of that, but as, as we teach that and we, you know, we, we taught that, all over the country, all over the world, in coursework to, to, to chiropractors and physical therapists. And, and the-- what's the most important part of that being an effective therapeutic, intervention?
It, it is the relaxation after the contraction. So- Yes ... so if, if I have someone contract their bicep and, and then I'm gonna try to lengthen it or a hamstring. Hamstring is probably something people relate to a little better. Contract your hamstring and then relax it so I can lengthen it. Not stretch it, but just lengthen it.
If they don't fully relax, we're trying to lengthen that muscle while it's still under tension.
Jim George: Mm-hmm.
Clayton Skaggs: And, and that is exactly, the, [00:11:00] the, the, the, the strategy that applies to almost every aspect of, of recovering and performance. If you don't relax after the performance, if you don't relax after you have a pain signal, you'll, you'll, continue to have that tension
Jim George: Yes.
And it's, you know, for me, I, I think it, it helps us with, you know, understanding that, that person's sort of current state. If we can't get them to relax even on a simple technique like that, we know we have some, some work to do and some education. So it, it is a, it's a good marker for where they're at with their injury and, and their ability to relax.
so a, a lot of is... a lot of information is gleaned from that, and so just things that you learn over time, learning about that person's body. But yeah, we can sometimes trick the nervous system and, and get, get some relaxation on that table and, and then move that person forward.
Clayton Skaggs: Absolutely. All right.
Well, I'm gonna go ahead and read [00:12:00] the, the insight and, and then we'll, we'll have some discussion after and maybe it, it-- the, the insight can feed ideas on, on maybe how, how to fuel relaxation. Some, you know, think about some stories maybe that you, can relay relative to, fueling, fueling someone's relaxation.
All right, so free kick. The video link below shows a free kick by United States soccer player Malik Tillman. This was a goal that put them ahead in the win in their match against Bosnia and Herzegovina. If you haven't watched that kick, I strongly encourage you to watch it a couple times. The view from behind is extraordinary.
There are many goals like it, and a lot of them are more amazing than this one. Search Messi amazing free kicks, and you can watch dozens of them. Lionel Messi from Argentina is considered one of the world's [00:13:00] best soccer players and greatest of all time by fans, journalists, and fellow players. His focus is extraordinary and may be a topic for our next essay.
What caught my attention about Tillman's kick was his relaxed execution. As he went to kick the ball with tens of millions watching and his team's outcome on the line, he was poised. His performance resembled taking a walk in the park, kicking a pebble off the sidewalk, or tossing a rock across the stream.
Watch the video a few times. It lasts only thirty-eight seconds. Notice how relaxed Tillman's leg is after striking the ball. His leg careened sideways as if his leg lost all its strength. He almost seems to be falling. It is a wonderful representation of immediate relaxation. Do not mistake this for casual, low intensity, or weak.
It is estimated that Tillman's strike of the ball traveled [00:14:00] at sixty-five to seventy miles per hour. The next time you're going down the highway, think about that Relaxation brings power. Relaxation extended to the millisecond before the kick, as Tillman performed, is beautiful. It produces precision and accuracy.
It requires deliberate practice. The art and science of relaxing, contracting, and importantly, immediately relaxing again, is covered extensively in the poise chapter in The Power of Doing What Matters. How could this apply to the performances you're pursuing? Think about something you're trying to improve.
Are you deliberately practicing your relaxation, contraction, relaxation strategy? This could apply to improving movement, learning about your pain, and even sleep. Maybe the most viable application of this poise principle would be the relaxation [00:15:00] before and after a challenging and/or negative thought. Keep Tillman's relaxation in mind when you're approaching your pressured moments or even your daily non-pressured ones.
The best way to be relaxed immediately after the kick is to be really relaxed before. How would you handle your free kick?
All right. So that, did that, stir any thoughts, Jim?
Jim George: Well, you know, to stay on that soccer theme, and I, I think maybe you and I fall in the same category. I'm a, a casual soccer fan at best, but the World Cup has, has drawn me in. And I think about this striker from Norway, Erling Haaland, who is, you know, maybe one of the best strikers, in the world.
And, and maybe you saw this article in The Wall Street Journal, a week or so back, and I hope people, people read it, but it talked about [00:16:00] how Norway approaches youth sports. And it is so different than here in the United States where, you know, you start club soccer young and there's competition and you're trying to move up the club.
In Norway, they, they play for fun and, and they don't even really keep score, or push these kids until they're about 13, 14 years old. And in the article, they, they talk about the kid- they want the kids to be childlike, to have fun on the soccer field, and to develop that way. And you take a guy like Erling Haaland, who barely touches the ball on the field, I mean, he sometimes gets five or six touches.
He's sort of relaxed, just, just sort of roaming around the pitch. And then at the, at the moment that that ball is ready for him, it's, it's hit across or it's lobbed in, he attacks. And he-- It, it's amazing watching, as you mentioned in the, in the insight, some of these [00:17:00] goals that him and Messi score where they're just kind of there and they kind of get to the right spot, and then they're able to turn it on, and then they relax again.
It, it's, it's something to behold. So when I read the insight, and it just so happened to coincide with that article in The Wall Street Journal, just a lot of, a, a lot of parallels there, them talking about these kids just being kids and having fun and moving around and, and, and just enjoying the game.
, and then obviously the, the cream of the crop floats to the, to the top there. But, just a, a lot of parallels between the insights and, and that article.
Clayton Skaggs: I love that. Yeah. And, you know, the, the- that childlike theme is, is one that we, we just continue to bump into and we really try to foster at the institute, where we, we try to encourage individuals to, to swing rackets, to skip, to, juggle.
, and, the more you, you promote that in, within [00:18:00] your, your day, your life, that actually feeds that relaxation component, which is what you speak to there with the, the Norwegian approach. And, and that, that also I think speaks to squeezing the glass, right? That if- Mm-hmm ... if the, if the child or even the, the later aged athlete is, is so stressed about performing, they're, they're going to walk into those games, walk into those activities, tense and, and contracted.
And, and again, what we, what we've covered here, what's covered in the science is your best, your best performance, your best accuracy and precision is if you're relaxed ahead of it, not contracted or tense ahead of it
Jim George: Yeah, and even, Clay, with everything that, that I've been taught, you know, it's, it still is something that [00:19:00] needs to be, um, practiced.
And as I started learning padel, you know, the racket sport that I know you and I enjoy- Mm-hmm ... and I think it's a sport that's growing, my first lesson with, with Cliff at the, at the, at the club, I was holding the racket too tight. I was trying to swing too hard. I was trying to aim my shots. I, I was not relaxed.
It was something new, and I was tensed up and, you know, so we all fall into it and, and it, it's just something we all have to, to keep front of mind and, and, and stay ahead of.
Clayton Skaggs: Oh, for sure. It... And, and, and so some thoughts on, so how do you, get, stay ahead of being relaxed, really speaks to a, a lot of the habits we, we recommend there at the institute, and, and that's to, to do the breathing every day, twice a day to, to incorporate the breathing into your, your regular activity.
Um, read, you [00:20:00] know, and, and as many relaxation, parasympathetic to, to bring it in clinical activities, th- that you can do that keep your starting point relaxed. Mm-hmm. And if your starting point's relaxed, your, your, your, your, your execution throughout the days is likely to, to, to go better and, -
Jim George: Abso- yeah.
Yeah, a- absolutely. I, I, I tell our clients here, every day at lunch I turn my lights off in my office. I get my legs up. that's my midday reset. I, I think just it really sets me up for a, a, a good afternoon. And another thing I, I, I love to do and I encourage people to do is, is be outside. A walk in nature, no headphones on.
I think it's one of the more relaxed things that, that help me just to, to go for a, a 30-minute walk outside. especially if you can get to a park or, or somewhere with [00:21:00] some greenery and some nice, landscape, it's just really good for the human body, really good for the mind. And so there's, there's lots of way...
We, we gotta find ways for people that, you know, get them to that relaxed state, things they enjoy doing. If it's something they, they hate doing, they're not gonna relax. So it, it's, it's one-- it's not a one-size-fit-all. The, the breathing I think across the board i, is gonna be beneficial for most folks, and there's lots of techniques on, on teaching that.
But then finding other avenues for, for people to, um, get out of that sympathetic tone in their life, 'cause we all have stressors. We all have big meetings coming up, or we have these sort of, events that are gonna be in front of us. So you, you gotta find ways to, to kind of counteract that and, I think that's what you see from the boardroom to the, you know, to the pitch in soccer.
The people that are able to do it, they, they, they're successful.
Clayton Skaggs: That's great. Great stuff, Jim. Yeah, I, I, I think most, most of our team members around [00:22:00] there, certainly appreciate your poised approach. I, I always have. so you're someone that I think can, can talk to this, and it's, it's part of why I've, I've, I've just valued you as a partner and, and colleague all these, all these years.
And I saw it early, and I'll, I'll maybe finish here with sharing some, some of our early stories when, I think you'd... Maybe you were, maybe you were, you were, you were out in practice at this point with us, and I was teaching at various venues around the, around the country, around the world, and, I, I, had, had a conflicting schedule on something and, at the last minute I, I...
This was one of the first times I did this to you. I probably did it half a dozen times. but at, at the last minute, I gave you a, a talk to, I think, something like 200 OB, OBGYN physicians or something in [00:23:00] Tennessee. Was that what it was? I... And, um- It
Jim George: was, ... Yeah, absolutely.
Clayton Skaggs: I
Jim George: remember it ...
Clayton Skaggs: I think, I think I gave you, maybe a week, may- it might not have been that long, notice on this thing.
And, you just nailed it and, you know, great, great reviews coming back. So, um, do you remember that, h? So it's... That was a while ago.
Jim George: It... I, I remember that, very well, and I remember showing up to register and I asked the lady, "Where's my talk gonna be?" 'Cause they had all these rooms, these breakout sessions.
And she said, "You're in the main ballroom." I said, "Oh, okay." And, it was , it was, I think, closer to 300 OBs. I was less than a year out, into practice and, and I remember calling you and saying, "Clayton, we're in the main ballroom here on this thing." And, I remember you saying, "Look, you know more about this than any of those guys in that room, any of those people in that room."
And, so yeah, get up there [00:24:00] and knock it out.
Clayton Skaggs: Ah. Fantastic. All right. Well, gosh, thanks, Jim. I think, there's, there's some really good, good messages, in, in this, and, appreciate you taking the time this morning. I know you've had a full, full morning already, and, um, really, really grateful for all you do there for the, the team and the clients and, look forward to a lot more.
Jim George: , happy to do it. Thanks for having me on, and look forward to doing it again at some point.
Clayton Skaggs: All right.
Jim George: Thanks, Jim.
Clayton Skaggs: Thank you for joining us on another episode of "The Power of Doing What Matters." Imagine 100 million people doing what matters. Reach for the stars for yourself and for someone else.