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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
Hello, and welcome to the Moonshots Podcast. It's episode 206. I'm your co-host, Mike Parsons, and as always, I'm joined by Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, Mark.
Hey, good morning Mike and listeners and subscribers. What a treat and a treasure trove we have in store today on Show 206. Yes, I feel that time and the powers of the universe bring us to our destiny here today. Mark.
Oh, I like that. Off the back of some excellent shows and books that we did into. The man, the myth, the legend, Mr Ryan Holiday. It is only right. It might even be our destiny, Mike, to cover his latest book. Discipline Is Destiny. Now, Mike, this is Ryan Holiday's second book in his stoic virtue series, with Courage is Calling being the first.
And in this book, I think he's written some of the mantras and big lessons from the Moonshot show, hasn't he?
I think he's been eavesdropping, Mark. I think he has turned into the Moonshots podcast. And it has been said discipline seems to be a theme that comes up so much amongst the superstars, the authors, the great thinkers, and the disruptors.
They all seem to have this discipline thing. So he has gone back once again to the stoics once again. He has taken ancient thinking and given it a modern retrofit, and it is. Tasty feasting. It is a great book, and I am delighted and excited to share this with our listeners because I honestly think this is one of the highest-order values you need to get stuff done.
And it's so good that one of our favorite authors does a book on it. Ah, Mark, I have to calm down.
This is it. This idea of mastering yourself first to then go out and maybe master the management of a team, being the best version of yourself. Maybe it's running a marathon. Whatever it might be.
It all starts by mastering your emotions and thoughts and then putting that into action, doesn't it? Creating the discipline to put into a prioritization metric or just sticking to your goals, as we recently found in our goal achieving your goals series. Or even something smaller than that, just waking up in the morning.
There's so much that stems from this discipline and self-control that we run into so much on the Moonshot show. And like you say, I share similar enthusiasm, Mike. It's so amazing that Ryan Holiday has been able to retroactively look at the stoics, ancient philosophy, and ancient thinking and bring it into modern times.
And there's just still so much for us to learn, even though we've already done all of his previous books. It's amazing to see yet another build we can go on and learn from. Hopefully, in this show, what we can do, Mark, is we can squeeze out several big thoughts and big ideas around discipline.
Give it a frame and some context, but we will also pepper each other and our listeners with so many practical tips on how to make discipline a daily practice. So if you enjoyed the build-up to this show with all our Ryan Holiday series, Get ready. If you are newer to the show or you're just tuning into it for the first time, we are going to break it all down.
We'll learn aloud so we can be the best version of ourselves. And discipline, Mark, I promise you, is something you need to understand as a priority, as a philosophy, as a principal, but equally still as a daily practice, as a habit. And we're gonna get that done in this show. Mark, where do you wanna start?
With a promise as interesting and valuable as that might be, I think it's only right for us to hear from the author, the philosopher himself. Mr Ryan Holiday, introduced the book to Good Morning America and told us why he's so interested in the idea of discipline.
Now you're deep diving into discipline or self-control.
It dates back thousands of years, but you think now is the best time to write about it.
Why? Yeah. We live in a world that our ancestors would be so jealous of. We have unlimited options. We have abundance; we have freedoms that they couldn't conceive of. But the flip side is that it's an opportunity, an obligation for self-control, and self-discipline.
The strokes of this great line say the most powerful person is the person who's under their power. So are you being controlled by the devices, temptations, or all the things you can do? Or are you in control? And I think the decision about what you do and don't do, the limits you set or don't set, determines who you are and what you're gonna be able to do in life.
I think we all apply self-control in different ways, whether it's eating, exercise, social media, or whatever it is in our life. But you say, think about this in three main parts. So walk us through its physical, emotional, and spiritual act. The physical is gonna be the most basic right.
How much you sleep, how you dress, and what you eat when you wake up. The sort of basic habits we go into being a person. But I'm most interested in what we might call the temperamental side of self-discipline. I gave a talk to the Los Angeles Rams a couple of years ago, and they have this great motto.
Because the main thing is to keep the main thing. The main thing. Oh yeah. But that is, in a world of temptation and distraction and lots of opportunities, lots of things, and wasting your time, that takes self-discipline to be in control of your emotions.
To go, this is my main task. This is the main thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna focus on that. And then I think about the highest level of self-discipline. You think about the great Stok philosopher; Mark Sarius becomes the emperor of Rome. He's the most powerful man in the world now. He can do anything. No one can stop him.
He needs self-discipline more than anything, and I think he has this great line to himself. He says, Strict with yourself, tolerant with others. That's the other part. It's not just, I like that it's not just. It's called self-discipline for a reason. You can only apply it to yourself. You have to be understanding and empathetic of other people.
So I'm gonna go off script a little bit because I'm wondering what you think are some of the biggest challenges for people regarding self-control and discipline, and what's one of the best secrets for getting over
those? Asking for a friend. Asking for a friend. . . So one of my rules is when I wake up in the morning, I don't touch my phone for the first 30 minutes to one hour that I'm awake.
Oh my. So that's Self Control right there. Whoa. And I don't think I broke the phone in the room. How do you wake up? The alarm is in the other room, so I gotta get up and go do it. And my thing is, I don't want to get sucked into that from the second that I wake up.
I don't want to be reactive. I wanna. What do I have to do today? What's the headspace that I want to be in? What's the main thing? And I want to tackle that first. I try to; My other rule is I do the hard thing first. So what's the big task for the day? Is it writing? Is it a, I don't wanna be scheduled for this morning meeting and this and that, and then it's 3:00 PM, and you're like, What was I supposed to do today?
And you've lost it. So you do the hard thing first to focus on the hard thing first. Yes.
All right. One quick thing that we can do right now. Yes. What can we do if people are watching and want to get themself disciplined? When we think about it, okay, you don't wanna use my phone right in the morning.
If you wake up at 10 o'clock, you gotta use your phone. But if you wake up at six or five o'clock, if you are early, the morning's there for you. And you think about someone like Toni Morrison. She's this editor at Random House. She has two young kids. She's a single mom. And she says, " Okay, if I want to be a writer, I gotta get up early and do that first.
She said I wanna make contact with the MUEs before I hear the word mom in the morning. Oh my gosh. And that's what it takes. You got what it takes? Yeah. And how can I set up my life or systems so I'm not white-knuckling it, but I know, Hey, I got up early? I tackled the hard thing. Now, anything else that happens today that's an extra mark just starts with getting the phone out of the room.
That's one thing we could all do today in the journey towards discipline. And this part of this bigger idea that who's running the show here is your iPhone. Running the show, or are you now? I relate to this a lot, and I cannot tell you what it has done for me, Mark, to get the iPhone out of my bedroom.
Yes, I wear an Apple watch, but it is on sleep or does not disturb mode. I only have to use the alarm to get up because if I get to bed early, I'll wake up naturally at a really good time. But let's say the alarm goes off, deferring the time to the iPhone; what a great metric. Time on the iPhone is important because imagine if you can just have your thoughts.
Get clear on your intentions for the day, so you don't, as Ryan Holiday mentioned, get to three, 3:00 PM and go, Hang on, what did I wanna achieve today? It's pretty much gone by 3:00 PM. I think this is the battle that we're all in. Who is taking our attention, time and energy, the world around us or ourselves, and this little habit of putting the iPhone in another room and not sleeping with your phone next to you?
It is huge on intentionality. It is a gesture even if you fail at self-control and self-discipline. It is the start of the process, okay? Number one. But number two, you are ensuring the likelihood of success is much higher because you won't give in to temptation. Yoko willingly talks about the snooze alarm being the greatest enemy of success, right?
There is so much in just that little gesture of not putting the phone in the room. That tells all levels of this story of why destiny is in discipline and why it matters because there are so many notifications. Mark, how hard is it to try and look at your phone and not look at a notification or a message?
It's almost impossible, isn't it? Something's gonna get you. This speaks to the idea that the world is out of our control, isn't it? Everything that we read in the news and on social media is things that don't necessarily impact us directly unless we want them to.
So by picking up your phone in the morning, and let's say, reading the news, checking social media, maybe even looking at your emails while you're in bed. Suddenly your mind is taken out of that present moment. And I'm hearing a lot of this intentionality like Kar would teach us around staying present, the deliberate actions to think about where I am right now.
What can I see here? Smell, touch, feel utilizing, something that's somewhat basic if you think about it. If you leave your phone in another room, you can suddenly be the master of how you wake up. And yes, you might have an alarm or your apple watch vibrates. Regardless of that, the way you wake up is still going to be in your control, isn't it?
That's right. And that react that lack of activity to instant notifications that distract you and maybe even cause you a little bit of anxiety or uncertainty with regards to your day, getting outta bed and feeling already overwhelmed. Nobody wants to do that, do they?
And I think you are right. Something as simple as leaving a phone in your study, your office, your kitchen, whatever it is, and going to bed without it. Not only is it impacting how you wake, But it's also impacting how you go to sleep. And I think that's a key to handle within all of this conversation around discipline, isn't it?
The idea of getting a good rest, being disciplined with how you set yourself up for sleep and then how you come out of the sleep, I think, is intrinsically linked.
Yeah, I think that, perhaps of the highest order, is the capacity to not watch another episode. That little thing on Netflix comes up, and it says, go to the, you know how you can kinda skip quickly into the next episode and keep going and going.
Like the capacity to say, No, I should brush my teeth and get to bed. That is the moment because once you do that, it's easier to leave the iPhone somewhere other than the bedroom. Then it's easier to get into bed, read a book, maybe just. Calm the jets. Get to sleep at a good time.
Then you wake up at a better time. You feel better consistently over time. It's so important to understand this idea of discipline and self-control not only helps you have a good day, but if you step back, Mark, what we have most certainly found, whether it's Einstein or Yoko Wilin, the theme of discipline is at the heart of their success.
Suppose we talk about Serena Williams, Michael Jordan, discipline. What a treat we have to get into one of the greatest arts of success discipline. We can do it right in this show. And I tell you who's been really disciplined, our member, Mark. They are one early-to-bed, early-to-rise kind of crew.
What do you think? Yeah, I think you're right. Our members keep growing and are growing week by week, day by day, and our very valuable members who have been with us for over a year keep on growing as well, Mike. So without further ado, introducing first of all our annual members, John.
Bob, Terry Kenmar, and now Marja. Thank you for staying with us for well over a year, but also not to forget our very illustrious crew. Also include Conor, Rgo, Yasmin and Lisa, Sid, Mr. Bonura, Paul Berg, and Kaman. David, Joe Crystal, Ivo Christian, Hurricane Brain, Sam Kelly, and Barbara. Andre and Matthew, Eric Abbey, Hoy, Joshua, Chris and Deborah Lase.
Steve Craig, Lauren Javier, Daniel, Andrew and Ravi Yvette, Karen Ra and PJ Niara. Hola Ingram and our brand new members, Sara, Dirk and Emily, welcome existing and brand new members to our Moonshot family.
Yeah, well done. Mohan has been with us for a year. She has launched. He. To the moon. So well done. And also welcome to Emily d and Sarah.
Just so great to see people from all four corners of the planet coming together to learn out loud to be the best version of ourselves. Together. We're all doing this, We're all figuring things out, and that's what we're doing here at the show. Thank you very much. We're very grateful for your support.
We hope you're enjoying the Moonshot Master series, which only our members get. And if you would like to listen to the Moonshot Master Series, it's a monthly podcast. It is the epic masterclass that we put together around some of our key topics. I wonder if we'll discipline as one for the next one.
Mark, what do you That's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right, but I tell you what, I think our members and listeners will just have to navigate over to moonshot.io. Click on the member button to find out whether that is indeed gonna be the theme of our next master episode.
And you might be asking yourself, what exactly do we mean by this idea of self-control and self-discipline? The good news is that the author himself, Mr Ryan Holladay, is talking about that topic. There's a maximum discipline equals freedom; how do you view it? Because you're a very disciplined guy, before the recording, I asked, dude, I wonder how your output level with a high level of quality and consistency remains so high.
And you simply said it's every day. And that's, but that's discipline though, that it's almost like you've taken it for granted the amount of discipline you have for the output because it's not only the books, there are tons of articles, there are your emails, here's your podcast. A lot is going on.
So can you talk about how that discipline has led to your freedom and output? I think it's important what we're talking about here is self-discipline, right? You can imagine an environment in which my day looks the same and my output looks the same. But there's like a gun to my head, right?
And suddenly, it's not the same thing, right? So I'm talking about self-discipline. Of course, discipline is important. Discipline Is important on a football team; It's important in the army, It's important in prison also, right? Discipline is there, and it matters. But I'm talking about self-discipline.
And there's that line; discipline equals freedom from jock, willing is great. There's a quote from Eisenhower that's similar that I think illustrates the angle that I'm thinking about it. Eisenhower said freedom is the opportunity for self-discipline, right? So the idea is once you.
First, we're lucky to live in a society where we have all sorts of freedom. Most of what we do is voluntary, right? We have choices to be and act however we want. For the most part, that's good, but also success creates a certain kind of freedom. There are different forms of freedom, but the point is, I'm talking about what happens when you can do whatever you want, but you choose to continue to keep yourself in check or to stay disciplined.
Several books ago, I could have said, Eh, I'm gonna take it easy from here on. Now I'm not saying I don't have to work. I'm just saying the pace or the system, the structure that I've set for myself, is not a function of needing to eat. It's also not a function of some sort, Which is another form of slavery, I would say it's, I'm not trying to prove something to someone, right?
Like I'm not, Also the reason I'm doing this many books is that I wanna sell the most books out of anyone in the world, and that's what, so I'm talking about how do you get to a place where you're doing these things voluntarily because it's who you want to be and it's what you want.
Mike, I think this is a great clip from Ron Holiday because he's confronting us here, isn't he? He explains what he means and perhaps what the stoics meant by self-discipline. And the thing that stands out to me is, first of all, this difference that he kills out at the beginning of the clip; you can get an output from me with a gun to my head.
I can give you what you want, but it is not gonna be the same, perhaps quality, the same output as one that I would do. And I think that's quite a key differentiator, isn't it? You need to be the master and commander of your output to deliver the work you are proud of and believe is valuable.
I think straight away, that definition and that terminology and that breakdown of self-discipline versus being commanded to do something then introduces this idea around freedom, don't you
think? I wonder where. We are going here to self-impose the choice. Discipline is the greatest form of empowerment because when you have self-imposed standards, high standards upon yourself, and choose to reach those when you don't have to, there is a calling upon your will, your ambition.
It is the true manifestation. It's the true path to being the best version of ourselves because you chose the path. The way I reflect on this is I was incredibly lazy up until my 20th until I was about 20 and I had an aha moment. I got a job that I really shouldn't have got. I was underqualified, but fortune came my way, and I realized that if I didn't turn things around and start getting disciplined, I wasn't gonna be much in life.
So here's the interesting thing. I was at 20 years of age; I was living in the city. I had moved outta home from my parents. So I moved back in with my parents, and I started working every day to be disciplined and give my best. And nobody forced me to do it. Like it was my choice. It was an awakening.
I was like, Oh my gosh, I need to get after it. So after a lifetime of missed opportunities and laziness, I said, Holy smoke, get ready. I'm getting after it. And that is one of the most important things ever happening because I made that decision. Yeah, I went to a really strict high-performance grammar school where you wore a suit and tie every day, but that was their rule for me.
It was when I applied my rules and expectations to myself that I truly opened up a whole new level of performance, and it made such a difference. It's shocking. Once I was ready to make that decision, I remember being 20 years of age and leaving the office at 11 o'clock at night. And just to be in time for the last train home.
And then I get to the office at eight o'clock in the morning. Yeah. And I did this for a huge amount of time. Like I had never sustained that level of discipline in the 20 years previously, I made that choice. And to me, always coming back to that, there's always a time to renew that kind of choice or apply yourself to your choice, your rules, and your expectations.
Because at the end of the day, Mark, if you say to yourself, I'm gonna get up at 6:00 AM every morning because I want to. It'll be much harder than, as Ryan Holiday said, if someone's got a gun to your head; yeah, sure, you're gonna get outta bed at six. But you didn't make that choice. And what comes from making that choice, that self-determination, is you get belief and momentum.
You get all of these incredibly positive energies that you can use, not just to get outta bed at 6:00 AM, but you'll find that it permeates into all parts of your life, professional and personal. When you choose to apply self-discipline when you achieve the rules that you set, the other thing for me, Mark, is when you do achieve something that was a result of you setting the rules to be self-disciplined, nobody else set the goal but you, and you got it done.
The well-being, the fulfillment, the satisfaction you get from achieving goals you set for yourself because you chose to. This is what we are talking about. This is what comes from self-discipline. This is why it's of the highest order. This is why I implore everyone, myself, you and all of our listeners and members, Mark, to set your goals and discipline.
Keep to it because you choose it because it's part of who you want to become. It's the vision you have of yourself. This, to me, Mark, is deep inside this book. Discipline is destiny.
I think that's so well said. I think the only thing I can offer to build on Mike is when you explore this idea of control intentionality, leading towards setting your goals to God and achieving the things you want to do.
You're reminding me of Michael D. Watkins in the first 90 days, and this is fundamentally what he was saying before. You want to and can go out and set your own goals. You need to create the intention that all those goals, your KPIs, your strategies, whatever they are, unless you have the intention to stick to them, Which only you can motivate yourself towards, you're never gonna necessarily achieve them to the best of your ability, Are you?
And again, it's similar to what Ron Holiday was saying about the gun to your head, Yeah, I can deliver what you're asking for, but unless I'm the one who's personally making that choice to get outta bed to go for that extra long run in the lead up to, let's say a marathon, or have that ability to listen to others and understand what they are saying versus, pushing forward my point of view, this is what we hear from the wrong holiday in that first clip, Being strict with yourself, tolerant with others, unless you've got that as a practice and an in.
And what's perhaps, likely will it steer back to, in your case, Mike, that first 20 years?
Yeah, I know you well. The funny thing is if you know that, call it laziness is inside of you, you have to hold yourself accountable and say, never again. I'm not; I'm just not going there.
And it's also part of this; it's not just about yourself, it's also about the people around you, the team around you, and the opinions of others and whilst you should be too and non-judgmental. I think the critical thing that we're talking about here is the transition on your goals, purpose, mission, and vision of who you want to be and hold yourself to that.
Don't worry about what others expect you to do. Hold yourself to a higher standard. And we have a great clip now where Ryan Holiday is talking to Tamron Hall about this very subject,
Seneca, one of the ancient Stoics. He said The most powerful person is the person under their power.
Yeah. And so if you see it as this opportunity to be like, I decide what I do and don't do. Yeah. That makes you
great. Okay. For a lot of people, though, they think discipline. That sounds rigid. It sounds so fun. It sounds like you know you're not gonna be able to relax and have a drink or whatever you do to unwind.
But you say discipline is not a punishment. It's a way to avoid punishment. We do it because we love ourselves, value ourselves and what we do, and find it convenient enough that it also heightens our enjoyment.
One of the ways that they would talk about self-discipline is the word temperance.
Temperance doesn't mean anything. It means the right amount of something. No pleasure is not a particularly good way to say No; it is not. But if it's so much pleasure, you have the hangover after, or you regret it the next day or a month later, you look in the mirror, and you're like, What happened?
How pleasurable was that? You also write in the book; No one can say yes to their destiny without saying no to what is someone else's. What does that mean? I was reading that over and over. I'm like, Speak to me, great philosopher; no one can say yes to their destiny without saying no to what is someone else's.
I think we've all experienced this as we become successful in what we do. You start getting all these cool opportunities and other things, people asking you for some of your time, people asking if you wanna do this if you wanna do that. And what you have to realize is that you can't say yes to everything.
And, when you say yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else. And conversely, this is important. When you say no to something, you also say yes to something. So when Mark says that we, when we ask ourselves, Hey, is this thing essential? Is this really what I have to be doing?
We find out a lot of the things that get thrown at people or try to guilt us into doing, or everyone else is doing, find out, hey, it's not essential. And when we eliminate that stuff, it's good in and of itself. Because when I thought
About that, I thought about how often we feel like we're being pulled in different directions.
We all know that feeling everyone wants something from me at this point and not monetary time. Your energy Prince used to call people energy vampires. Yes. You get on the phone with them; you feel weak cuz they are pulling from you.
Yes. And so when you say no to things, you're saying yes to the important things.
Right? I heard a great line about Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. One of her clerks said, What I so admired about her, and I think this is a thing that women struggle with, especially what I loved about her is when she said no, she never said sorry first.
She just said, No, I can't do it. Yeah. And that takes self-discipline if you're a people pleaser. Yeah. If you are afraid to hurt other people's feelings. If you like me, I wanna do everything. And it feels like it's almost painful to say no. You got that fear of missing out. But the things you're saying yes to mean you're saying no to other things, often to your family.
And so I have to realize that when I'm saying yes to some random thing that came into my inbox, I'm saying no to my little kids, and I already promised time to them. And so you have to have discipline about what you say yes to and what you say no to.
Mike, again, this is right on the money when it comes to some of the themes, the topics, and the lessons that we've learned from the Moonshot Show.
I'm already being reminded of Kim Scott's Radical Candor. , which, you know, as isolated as a book, is more about how you interact with others, teamwork, and managing people. But I think it applies quite nicely here because it illustrates that once you learn the value of saying no, you suddenly free yourself up to do the things that matter to you.
And as we're learning from Ryan Holiday, this intentionality and this decision, to set the direction that you are gonna go out and follow and stay focused on the things that you want to go out and do, is your key towards. Destiny. So actually, I can see this build that runs Holidays doing here: if you are strict and you proactively utilize discipline, it doesn't have to be punishment, it doesn't have to be limiting.
If anything, it's your key to being much more open and free with your time to go out and do the work that matters and that you want to get outta bed in the morning to go out and do.
So here's an interesting, practical example of focusing on yourself rather than what others want.
I think it would be to plan your day and set your priorities before you look at your inbox. Yeah. Because in the inboxes, everybody else's priorities, exactly. Yeah.
And this. I think we've spoken about this before, Mike. This is certainly something that I have to do every day. I try and at the end of the day, so for example, at the end of today, I'll do a mental checklist and make sure, okay, this is what I've done, moon shots tick, I've done that meeting and so on.
And maybe I'll plan for what my next day tomorrow will look like. I'll then revisit that in the morning. So tomorrow morning when I wake up, my phone will be in the other room. , I promise. I promise Ryan and. I'll be able to look at it without checking. Anything else? It's the things that I've been reflecting on while I sleep.
Okay, what are the priorities I need to do today? Then you can open up your messages, your Slack, your emails, and the million and one notifications that you've probably received. Are you no longer being dictated to or controlled by those? Because you are now free to prioritize based on the things that matter to you, to your job, and your team.
Yeah, and we're not talking about being antisocial here. What we're talking about is knowing the mission that you are on and making sure you don't get taken off course. I think another example of practicality is that you can be disciplined. It goes back to something I've mentioned on a show recently.
I got invited to be a guest on a podcast. I just asked the question. Oh, it's a bit odd that you'd invite me. It's very nice. But tell me a bit more about how you think I could contribute because I'm not really into the topic area that you guys covered, and they never even answered the email
So I took one little bit of pushback done in a very gentle way where I'm like, what would we talk about? I don't; I'm not into this very specific tech thing. And I think it's just if someone invites you to an event and you're like, you have every right to, Oh, thank you.
Could you tell me a little bit more about it? There's another thing wrong with that. And as they reveal this invitation to you, you can say, " Oh listen, the following day, I have a big commitment. There are a lot of legitimate things in your life that would prevent you from participating that, if you do it correctly, don't have to be, crashing for the other people.
And I think we often say yes because we don't want to hurt their feelings. Yeah.
That's right. That's right.
Or we don't wanna appear unapproachable or whatever. But I think if you can learn to say, tell me more about this obligation, invitation, or request. And another thing that comes to my mind is when people request something of you, you can say, Yes, I can do that, but not this week.
Yeah. Because often we're under this huge stress, we're like, Oh, I'm not. Another thing, I'm already jam-packed this week. So it's, how many times when you say, Listen, I am really busy this week, but I can certainly take care of it next week. In the meantime, I could send you this thing if that helps.
How often do people turn around and say that's dreadful, Una, agreeable and impractical? You. I hate you. You're terrible. Often it leads to some sort of negotiation of expectations, and you can resolve it quickly. I think a lot of the time, we mindlessly get committed to stuff without realizing or sensing some discomfort but not addressing it.
And then we get all tied up because we're like, Oh my gosh, I got like a 60-hour week. I'm fully obligated. I'm not happy. Yeah. You get grumpy and take it out on those you love.
Exactly. And look, I've been guilty of this idea of taking on too much work.
And to be honest, Mike, it's down to ego. I think it's down to wanting to take on all of the work because suddenly - the hero's here, and he's doing it all. But the problem is, I've learned this through experience if you take on too much and say yes to everything.
Suddenly the quality drastically goes down. Because you are no longer focused on doing the job at hand, you can't give anything your full focus because a team is pulling you over. This isn't your day job. This isn't your business as usual. You're doing it extra now that's impacting your normal day job and the roles and responsibilities that you have, whether it's to your loved ones or to work, and suddenly you get into a kind of quagmire of seeing so much going on.
And it's paralyzing, isn't it? You just don't know. Where to focus your time. And obviously, we explored that in the goal series, but I can see how this discipline would remove this uncertainty, unsteady ground, and lack of prioritization. Because if you start with what matters to you and those around you and what you need to go out and do to be maybe the best version of yourself or do the work that's required of you, let's say it's waking up in the morning to go out and do that hard work, the big job at hand, do it first thing, cuz you're gonna be clear of all other responsibilities.
That, for me, is just such a great little tip, isn't it? To try and see how we can take back control of our lives, but also learn how to say no to many other requirements or requests that come over our table every
day. Yeah. It's really, Fun enough. It's the same as a great product.
Steve Jobs said the hardest thing about the first iPhone was what? Not to put it into it. Yes. That's right. And I think this question of you are, and your choices sit adjacent to this idea of discipline. And if you can focus on finding the tools and doing the jobs you need to be the best version of yourself, then you'll unlock a lot of value and trade things off a little bit. Discuss things and challenge your inbox, right? Refrain from mindlessly accepting what's coming to you. Something you can embrace and accept in your inbox is a lot of love from the Moonshot Podcast. You can go to moonshot.io you can, sign up for a newsletter; can get notifications of all the new shows.
You can go to Moonshot so you can get show notes. But if that's a bridge too far, Mike, you could open this app you are listening to this show on right now. Couldn't you? Yeah, I mean
If navigating to moonshots.io to find newsletters, episode lists member sign ups is just that little bit too much, pop into your Spotify app, your Apple podcast, or whatever it means that you are using to listen to the Moonshot Show Today with Ron Holiday, Discipline is destiny.
I'd leave us a rating review. It very much influences and impacts how the show is spread around the world. It has introduced just this simple mechanic of you listeners leaving ratings and reviews, getting the show out into the ears, as well as the hands of listeners from around the world.
And we really are Mike reaching the four corners, which is fantastic, and it's great to see the listeners growing each month, but it really starts with you, our day to day, week to week listeners leaving a rating review makes a huge difference, doesn't it, Mike?
Yeah, it is a great habit that you could get yourself into a good morning routine of clicking or giving us five stars, whatever it takes to spread the love to.
Share. We're all learning out loud here. We don't, no one person's got the answers, but I tell you what, one person's got, quite a few is Ryan Holiday. So let's have a little taster of if he wrote about discipline, what does his morning routine look like? What
does your normal
What does a workday look like?
Are you doing like a nine
to five? Not nine to five. Like I wake up early. I go for a run or a walk with the kids, whether we're at my farm or my place in town. I don't check my phone in the morning. I don't eat in the morning. I usually journal in the morning, and then I go, I write for two or three hours, and then the rest of the day after that is business, Other work stuff, I'm done by four almost every day.
So probably work eight 30 to four.
Mike, this is a short and sharp clip that I think bridges us from this understanding that we now have around self-discipline and how to put it into practicality. The key thing for me that I hear from Ron Holiday is his admission. He does not necessarily follow that strict routine of nine to five, which many of us have grown.
Around. Instead, what Ron Holiday does is he chooses the moments in his day when he's perhaps most free physically because he's not on calls and so on. So he spends time with his family, but also b, he prioritizes the things that he needs to get done, such as journaling, as doing the hardest bit in the morning so that he knows he's accomplished that item, that theme, and then can get on with the rest of his day, his business as usual, or his work, his writing books after that.
And I think what's important here is how that pattern that he's chosen, that he's created for himself through perhaps experimentation, he's now got the discipline to maintain day to day. And I think that's a really important call out for us.
I would agree. And just a side note here, a lot of highly productive people.
Have a similar routine to him. Get up pretty early. We've got Robin Sharma 5:00 AM Club; check out moonshots.ao if you wanna, to listen to that episode. But also particularly a nuance I see a lot is people not having a large breakfast in the morning. Now for those of you who are big athletes, I know if I run to do a big run very early in the morning, I don't like to run at six or seven.
I'm more like a 10, kind of 10 o'clock kind of guy I know after a big run; you just have to eat. Some people need to eat before, but my, the number of people that you hear who do not eat anything until 11 or 12 in the morning because they think so clearly when they haven't been eating breakfast.
It's quite a large number of people.
I would say, in my experience, it seems to be growing for sure. I certainly have experimented for most of my career, probably from what I was thinking about earlier, probably for maybe 20 or 25 years. I was quite religious about breakfasts and had them every day.
It was very regimented. I was probably very disciplined about doing it. So the idea of skipping it. It was quite foreign to me, quite alien. Why would I do that? I'm not gonna be the best version of myself, but, by skipping that breakfast and keeping myself, in theory running on empty, I was lighter.
I felt physically more agile, and my brain was able to function. Maybe not infinitely quicker, but certainly, I could see a little bit of a difference. Now, I think the call out here is, it's probably up to the individual. Like you say, Mike, if you're in training or otherwise, you're probably gonna have a diet regime figured out, but you are.
Even when you and I have collaborated, the times when I've skipped breakfast,I find that I'm pretty efficient. I'll be starving by lunchtime . But it does seem to work,
doesn't it? Yeah. Look, a halfway point is if I go vegetarian is another way of feeling lighted. So I really try to avoid meat and carbs.
That's another way of achieving a similar sort of level. If you want to be in that very lean food consumption, you wanna devote most of your brain power to thinking and not your body revoting all its energy to digestion. Really interesting idea. What's also interesting is it's not only Ryan Holiday studying the stoics.
We've done a great job here, and we found a clip from a guy called Thomas Frank, who's got a channel called College Info Geek. And he's come up with a couple of handy tips, a couple of bits of advice that he's peeled away also from the stoics of a Roman emperor, and it's all about achieving self-discipline.
So to add a bit of spice to this Ryan Holiday special on discipline is destiny. Let's listen now to some more advice from ancient Roman emperors.
I've been getting a lot of questions about how to build self-discipline and force myself to do things that are congruent with my goals and aspirations but not exactly with my desires at the moment.
Now, while there's a lot that can be said on the subject, and I have a lot of experiences of my own that I'd like to share with you in a future video today, I wanna share just one simple thought that comes from the Roman Emperor Marcus Aureus. Aureus ruled Rome from 1 61 to 180 AD, and he's considered the last of the five good emperors, but he's also considered one of the most important stoic philosophers.
And his book meditations, considered one of the most important texts in stoic philosophy, contains a passage that has a lot to say about self-discipline, and I think it might even be the foundation of self-discipline. So in book five of meditations, Aures Write, At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself, I have to go to work as a human being.
What do I have to complain about if I'm going to do what I was born for, the things I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under the blankets and stay warm, but it's nicer here. So you were born to feel nice instead of doing things and experiencing them. Don't you do the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their tasks, putting the world in order as best they can, and you are not willing to do your job as a human being?
Why don't you want to do what your nature demands? But we have to sleep sometime. Agreed. But nature set a limit on that as it did on eating and drinking. And you're over that limit. You've had more than enough of that, but not of working there. You're still below your quota. You don't love yourself enough, or you love your nature too.
And what it demands of you. People who love what they do, wear themselves down doing it. They even forget to wash or eat. Do you have less respect for your nature than the engraver does for engraving the dancer, for dance, the Meiser for money or the social climber? When they're possessed by what they do, they'd rather stop eating and sleeping than give up practicing their arts.
He's telling you to respect your path in life enough that you consider it to be your very nature, to be instinct. Just as spiders, bees, and ants get up every day and are driven by their instincts, so should you be driven by the actions that are demanded by your goals. If yesterday you decided you wanted to get up early so you could work on your goals, but now you're lying in bed, and you feel all comfortable, and you don't wanna get up, then you need to focus your mind on your nature on the path you've chosen and let that over.
Your current desire. Other aspects of the art of gaining self-discipline, like exercises for building grit or systems that commit you to things ahead of time, are important, but they take a back step to this one key insight for Marcus Rays. Respecting your work as your very nature in tailoring your decisions and actions and in accordance with that was the most important part of building discipline.
So my parting thought for this short video is to figure out why you're doing what you're doing; what's the reason for it? And once you figure that out, consider that work to be your very nature and tailor your actions towards that. Hopefully, this video has helped you in some way. And if you wanna read meditations, you can pick up a paper copy as I've got, or you can read it entirely free online.
Since the dude wrote the book like 2000 years ago.
Mike, we are hearing a great clip there from college in Info Geek, bringing to life the work of Marcus Ellis and his book, or the fifth book of meditations; the thing that's standing out to me and again, Not that we're trying to encourage all of our listeners to just get out of bed.
This reference to the idea of huddling under the blankets, staying warm, being comfortable to an excessive level, and instead being strict with yourself, being disciplined with yourself and questioning, was this why I'm here? Is this what I've been brought into the world to do: stay in bed?
That, for me, is such a wonderful insight, I think, and a wonderful lesson too, to ask myself when I do have moments like that, which, to be honest, is somewhat frequent, but when I do get out of bed or no matter what time it is, presume preferably early because Sydney is waking up very early nowadays.
It's when I can go out and maybe exercise when I can walk the dog when I can get that fresh air. And As, and I never regret it. I have never once regretted getting up early. No. Because then you do feel good about yourself. How do you relate to that quote from ORs there?
I think it is so funny how we mentioned that quote from Yuko willingly, like the snooze button, is like the enemy of finding your destiny or becoming the best version of yourself.
It's so true. I think it's about reminding yourself. And I think what is important is that one of the techniques I use to wake myself up to get out of the fog is to think about my legacy. And how do you want to be remembered? What, when you are gone from this planet, What's the residual net effect, positive impact that you have had?
And once you start thinking about that, I don't know, just start doing it, Mark Hey, when Mark is no longer with us, what will be left on this planet? It has a; It's a bit uncomfortable, isn't it? It's
a confronting idea, isn't it? It's a confronting idea. And, perhaps if that is too confronting for some of our listeners, then I suppose a more short-term idea might be, what is the effect that getting up early is gonna have on you?
If you go out and walk, get out in the shower, do that tough thing in the morning, or think how beneficial it'll be for the rest of the day or the week just to get it done.
Yeah. Or ask yourself, let's say you're about to. To change jobs or you're considering your job. How would your colleagues talk At your farewell party?
Yeah. About you? Yeah. Or how would you feel at the end of the week if you didn't do that Important thing? Yep. I think transporting yourself to the future state to understand your choices today by thinking about tomorrow is a really powerful technique of saying when you're in bed, and the alarm goes off, and it's all warm and toasty, and you are considering skipping, getting out for this morning, what does it matter?
It's Thursday; it's almost the end of the week. Ask yourself how you're going to feel about that in the future, and how many times are you going to do that before you call yourself out? And that's not easy. And I think it's really important that we. Acknowledge that we all struggle with this.
It's just part of life. But do you want to feel nice now or fulfilled at the end of the week? Which do you choose? Which do you choose? Do you wanna be sitting there having finished your dinner at night, knowing you put in a great effort? You did work that matters. You helped others, and you're like, That feels good.
That was a good day. Do you want that or do you want me to skip this whole thing I should have done? Yeah, exactly. Do you want, I think that is, is the kind of eternal question is like, how do you. Maintain, How do you keep self-discipline? And Mark, who've we got that's got some thoughts on that?
Listeners, members, and Moonshot's family heard the case from Ron Holiday today. Introduce us and direct us towards the value and importance of self-discipline. Now, if we, you're thinking, ah, that all sounds a little bit like tough work or don't. We've got one more clip from Mr Ron Holiday. The author of Destiny of Discipline is Destiny, Who's gonna close out our show and tell us how discipline leads to joy.
Some people lack discipline. This is why they can't get up off the couch. This is why they shove food in their mouths which they shouldn't do. This is why they don't do the hard work on themselves or whatever's in front of them.
But then other people have the exact opposite problem. They're too driven. They can't relax; they can't let up, which is why at the Oracle of Delphi, the famous piece of advice was moderation in all things. It's not good to have no discipline, motivation, and drive. But conversely, it's better to have fewer of these things.
In the end, you wreck yourself, Ozzie men; look at my works and despair, right? You hurt other people, and you don't fully realize the gifts that you have. So when we say that discipline is destiny, it's not any amount of discipline. It's the right amount of discipline that makes you who you are. One of the things I think a lot about and dislike is, if I was like, Describe a philosopher, it'd be like a university professor turtleneck, like tweed.
Yeah. You'd think of a weakling. And in the ancient world, my philosophers were people who did shit. They were warriors. They were kings, like Mark's hunts. There's an early stoic who's a distance runner, one who's a boxer. And what I love when you read the stoic text is that their metaphors are all sport.
It's wrestling, fighting, running, and hunting because they did those things.
Those things are difficult. Yes. And difficult things are good for you, and they're good for your mind.
Seneca says you treat the body rigorously so it will not be disobedient to the mind. Ooh. I like that. That's good.
And I think about that when I'm jumping in the shower, jumping in a cold pool, whether I'm pushing myself while I'm running or lifting weights, is like I'm reminding the body who's in charge. That's what physical practice is. It's the mind asserting itself over the body. We tend to think of philosophers as these sorts of.
People, but mental practice, mental resilience, and being in charge of yourself is the ultimate muscle you want to cultivate. And it's the thing that every great athlete has to have. It's good that you have high standards, but you have to understand it's called self-discipline for a reason, meaning it's about you.
You don't get to enforce that on other people. This is why Marcus talks about being strict with yourself, and tolerant of others. Cato says, I can forgive anyone's errors, but my own meaning. You leave other people to their own mistakes. You're tolerant, you're forgiving, and you understand all the context which just goes into it, and that's why you're not hard on them but on yourself.
That's who you don't accept excuses to. That's who you hold to. Increasingly high standards, cuz that's the only thing you control. You control self-discipline. Where you're gonna go crazy. Where you're gonna become an asshole is if you try to enforce those standards, that self-discipline on the other people around you.
Who, by the way, never asked you to do that. They never signed up for it and may not even agree with your standards. Even if they could reach them. But the point is high standards for yourself. Tolerant, forgiving, understanding, and helpful to everyone else. That's what Stoicism is. Joy or happiness or delight.
That's not an emotion we associate with the STOs, but the stoics' experience that Epitda tells me, I delight in my improvement day to day. His delight wasn't coming from money or fame or recognition or pleasure. It was from getting better every day. It was from improving. It wasn't based on externals as the S Stokes warned us against.
It was based on the inner work he could do for himself. Knowing that he was becoming a little bit better, a little bit wiser, a bit more self-controlled, self-contained, and a little more resilient. That's where the stoic finds joy and happiness and pleasure. He brings it home in that clip, doesn't he?
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Strict with yourself, tolerant of others. The way I related to Mark required enormous discipline and was very hard. I was running my first marathon this year and it instantly reminded me of the feeling I had when I finished.
It was like I was done, really done. But it was as equally this as a deep peacefulness and satisfaction that I had trained for three months for my first marathon. I got it done, and I was so calm, so peaceful. It was remarkable, and I think that was a really deep satisfaction. That knowingness, I didn't need to explain it.
I didn't need the roar of the crowd. I didn't need anything on the day. I just had put in so much work, and it was so hard, and I got it done that it just felt good. And that's the joy that he's talking about. That's on the other side of the discipline. Stick with it, and good things happen 1% better every day.
How compelling are these truths? It's ain't sexy and ain't easy, but Mark, it's essential, isn't it?
It is essential, and I think the key thing standing out to me as we're on holiday was bringing it home in that clip is the fact that your mind is something you can control.
If you find yourself distracted, not wanting to get out of bed, or maybe just ignoring something on your to-do list because it's uncomfortable, it's a difficult conversation. Maybe it's asking for help. By exposing yourself to those difficult moments, and building up that muscle, you can then be that version of yourself that's maybe a little bit stronger.
Maybe it's 1% better the next day. James Clear was saying it's just finding the I think Ron Holiday puts it nicely there. The. Daily improvement is such a wonderful challenge. And it's talking to that growth mindset we've spoken about on the show. It's, he's encompassing a lot of the things we've learned on the Moonshot show
in this book. It's true. And the last secret I wanna reveal about this is that if you are super disciplined and go for 1% better every day, you'll, over time you'll,l achieve a result. And here's the big cheat.
Once you have proof, once you have the evidence that's sticking with something daily and going for small micro improvements, incremental improvements, like sometimes it can be a matter of millimeters between day and the following day, once you have had a confirming a reaffirming experience where you're like, Oh, damn.
This compounding works. It becomes much easier to be disciplined and have positive daily habits because you are like uh ha, I get it now. I know that this will result. I'm not guessing it will result in something. I've had this, the evidence myself. So there's still a little bit of a grind to self-discipline, but when you know, there is a result at the end, when you know that your run today will contribute to the marathon next month, next year, wherever it is running today doesn't become so.
Because there's a knowingness, I know I'm doing it. So you get this almost satisfaction of finishing the big race, even in the training, because you know that you are directly contributing, contributing, and that is all about purpose. When you know the things you do today are contributing to a destiny of tomorrow, a destination in the future, it becomes a lot easier to get it done today.
I think the reason so many of us have not truly mastered this is we never got the first win. Yeah. And if I look at my first 20 years, I never really got the big, went from discipline. So I was lazy. I did just enough just to stay out of some trouble. But the point here is, It just gets better and better because you can take great joy in the daily improvement, even if it's really small, cause you just know it's gonna compound like crazy over time.
How?
Said Mike. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I think you're talking exactly where the key lesson from discipline is that destiny is dragging us towards, and I think it's been a wonderful experience digging into this brand new book by Ron Holiday.
It's been great. And so I guess we talked about some big aha kind of ideas and insights.
We talked about some practical habits. What changes as a result of show 206?
mark? Ugh, , it's a tricky one because there's so much that does speak to me as I'm thinking about this idea of discipline. For me, though, it's this idea about trusting the idea of discipline and the fact that it's not a punishment.
Discipline doesn't have to be boring or restrictive. If anything, the discipline to say no and to prioritize is very freeing. And I love that almost juxtaposition that perhaps a lot of us have. Don't necessarily appreciate it until we start putting it into action. So I think for me, the idea of trusting discipline, going along with it, testing it and seeing how it does actually benefit you is a big practical takeaway that I can put into action right now by even just leaving my phone out.
The bedroom. Oh yeah.
And it starts with one thing, and it gets addictive. Cuz then you'll get to bed early. No, no phone in the room. Cold. Cold shower. Don't check my email, right? , and you do these things over time, and there's, ah, as he said, Ryan Holiday, there is joy at the end of this.
There is fulfillment and satisfaction. I think that's what we're all looking for. That's what we're all hoping to find. The catch here is, though, it's not instant gratification, is it, Mark?
No, it takes time. Much like any habit, much like any behavior, it can take time. But is that enough to put me off?
I think I've delved enough into so many individuals on the Moonshot show, Mike as our listener, that I think the idea of it is too long-term. I think we can just dig in deep, can't we? Discomfort. Good.
Good. You gotta be a yucca willing there. Look, the evidence is there.
Ancient stoic emperors, Einstein, and Michael Jordan, what did they do? They were disciplined. And that Mark brings us to the end of Show 206 with Ryan Holiday. Des Discipline is Destiny. And what a story for our listeners and our members, which began with the power of self-control. That whole thing starts with setting your goals and habits, so we know what discipline means.
And you need to focus on yourself, not the noise around you. Focus on what you want, not what others want of you, and that might very well get a good, turbo boost. One might say having a great morning routine that does not include your phone. And so when you are there in bed, questioning everything, ask yourself, do you wanna feel nice versus fulfilled?
Because that's the ancient question that lies inside stoicism. That's what lies at the heart of being disciplined and fulfilling your destiny. And if you are strict with yourself and intolerant with others, you'll go out and find a world of opportunity is around you. There is abundance there for the taking.
It is. Those that are disciplined will truly achieve that destiny. And that is exactly our purpose here together on the Moonshots podcast. It's all about learning out loud so we can achieve those destinies. Indeed. All right. That's a wrap.