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“Words of Wisdom” is an initiative to document and celebrate the stories, insights, and wisdom of Singapore’s senior citizens. It's powered by Folklory, a service dedicated to preserving stories through audio podcasts, who will collaborate with 60 seniors aged 60 and above to create a series of 60 podcasts, each capturing a unique slice of Singapore’s rich history and culture. Find out more info at Folklory.com
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:04
Unknown
Hello there. This is Terence from folkloric. What? You're about to listen to a podcast from the Words of Wisdom project, where we spoke to 60 Singaporeans over the age of 64 as G60 and captured the life lessons for the next generation. We hope you enjoy it.
00:00:24:06 - 00:00:55:18
Unknown
And we're here today to record this for glory with Billy. I'd like to start this for you, Belinda. Just give us give us a brief introduction of yourself. Well, I I'm, 69 years old. Coming to 70 soon. I'm still working. I don't feel like I should retire. And I've been. I started my career as a as a corporate guy, as an accountant, actually, professionally.
00:00:55:18 - 00:01:18:07
Unknown
And then grew into the business. Into the business? More by default than by design. But, I'm still running the business. Got it, got it. Okay, so, I mean, definitely work is a very big part of your life and your identity. So I do want to ask you a little bit about that. Can you talk a little bit about how you how you got into business?
00:01:18:07 - 00:01:44:22
Unknown
Like what what actually pushed you to become entrepreneur and start your own business? Well, I wouldn't say I was an enterprise in order to start the business, but as a young man, when I finished, when I graduated from the university, I, in the accounting field and of course, hungry for a job and one of the big accounting firm offered me a job.
00:01:44:22 - 00:02:08:05
Unknown
I took up the job. Okay. And then I was sent out to do some, a few works in the auditing field. Okay. And the company that, I audited, then made me an offer. So I joined the company with, big American firm at the time. And then I stayed on. That was 1981.
00:02:08:19 - 00:02:38:17
Unknown
And I stayed on in that company till, 1997, actually is a long time. And in 97, the company was then acquired by the big, German company, Siemens. And we became, by default, part of Siemens. And about eight years later in 2006, the business model that we have was Siemens has was a little bit, not in the line.
00:02:38:18 - 00:03:06:23
Unknown
So we, we convince and the Siemens, management to allow us to do a management buyout. Okay. So I did we did that with my, employees and our, managers, and then we own the business and run it for a few more years. And another big company from Netherlands bought us out. And three years ago, the Dutch company decided to divest the business.
00:03:06:23 - 00:03:43:15
Unknown
And now we bought it back again. So. So if you look at my career, it's the same company, same job since 1981. I see, I see. So it's always kind of kind of being an entrepreneur by default. I say that because if at the point in the book 2 in 2006, if we have continue, we believe that our business would die not because of the market, but because of the structural issues that we have with, with the German, company.
00:03:45:23 - 00:04:06:02
Unknown
I see, I see. So I mean just speaking about like you said, the entrepreneurship was, was not something that immediately came to you at all. Yeah. But what kind of skills do you think you picked up early on in your career that helped you in the world of when you're actually running a business and all that?
00:04:06:07 - 00:04:31:00
Unknown
Well, I think I think, and I think, you know, there is no clear definition of what an entrepreneur ship is, right? You know, entrepreneur things people tend to think of. And the business people who, start their own business. But, you know, in the refers to people who, running businesses. So you can also be a career managers running a business.
00:04:31:00 - 00:04:58:21
Unknown
Right? Yeah. You can still be a very successful and, you know, running a, company that is not owned by you, so to speak. Right. So in, in my younger days, when I started, I key thing I always remind people is that you need to cultivate a team of people, a night like minded people who have the same objective in mind.
00:04:59:11 - 00:05:31:07
Unknown
And the, the team, the core team is able to support you in whatever you want to achieve for the business or for for whatever objective that is being set. And I, I, I have been very fortunate to have a team of people around me, who who believe in the business. Right. And we all then went through the, the process of doing a management buyout, growing the business, then sold it again.
00:05:31:08 - 00:05:55:13
Unknown
Then we bought back again. And now we continue to grow the business again. And that to me is important. If you the I call this the the support structure. If you do not have this team of, human resources or friends or colleagues around you to support you in what you want to achieve, it is impossible.
00:05:55:15 - 00:06:23:08
Unknown
And that's something that every person in my view should realize because nobody can be successful by him or herself. You can only be successful if you have a team of people who are like minded, have the same objective and work in the woods, the same objective together. So how do you keep a big group of people, focused on the same objectives.
00:06:23:08 - 00:06:54:16
Unknown
Like what? What must a leader do. Well I mean what it does is very difficult to be precise, but I think you share a common interest. You, treat each others, fairly. There is hierarchy in the structure, but on the date, on the everyday basis, it is more a team rather than the hierarchy. The hierarchy comes into play when there is a need to take structure into play, to take a position.
00:06:54:21 - 00:07:23:11
Unknown
Hey, more importantly, you should treat each other is equal. And and if possible, develop a consensus on whatever issues. Sometime consensus cannot be achieved. Then, the position, the decision has to be taken to say, okay, since we do not have a consensus, then we will give up this idea, even though some are convinced, some are not.
00:07:24:00 - 00:07:52:17
Unknown
And the people who are convinced have to have to be prepared to say, okay, I give up this because, and pushing things through then are not not concerned. Not every not agree. Usually we have resistance, right. So the, the, the other step to do is before you give up of course is, is to then take the extra effort to convince those who are not convinced before you move forward.
00:07:52:19 - 00:08:17:11
Unknown
Now the process sounds a bit long. But I think the long term payoff is always there because, using using a hierarchy to say, okay, we have, we had this meeting and oh of oh of ten of ten person seven is agreed to. We have not agreed. We have majority. Let's move forward. That's typically how a structure works right.
00:08:19:08 - 00:08:42:06
Unknown
I don't believe in that. I, I believe that if we do something really critical and big, then all ten must agree to it, because then you still having seven who will then support it. And the other three sitting on the side watching and actually to be honest, when this happened the three sitting on the side will usually think that okay let's watch this.
00:08:42:06 - 00:09:06:09
Unknown
Guys are going to fail. Then you would you will go into and this will roll right. When you roll over then you will not, you cannot cultivate a trust relationship into the future for the next 1020 years. So it can, you can hold back a little bit but I think is worth the effort.
00:09:07:08 - 00:09:30:07
Unknown
So I mean that's interesting that. Yeah it involves giving up giving a lot of trust to the people that you're already working with over this year and making decisions and vice versa as well. It's not just a one way trust. It is in fact it is more important that the people who are working with you and working for you trust you more than the other way around.
00:09:31:14 - 00:09:55:05
Unknown
Because it carries a lot of weight when they trust you. Right. Yeah. If you, if you say something and because of the trust, when you want something done, it will get done right. Okay. So I mean, just for yourself, you know, you you mentioned you're still working at this point. Yeah. You know what keeps you motivated?
00:09:55:08 - 00:10:15:19
Unknown
What's the secret to your longevity in your career? Well, I, I, I mean, the news, the many things. I mean, of course, you have to stay healthy. So that's the first thing. If you're not healthy, you can have all the wishes. But still can't do it. I'm. I'm, I believe I'm blessed to be healthy at this moment.
00:10:16:10 - 00:10:42:08
Unknown
And hopefully will continue to stay healthy. I want to stay active. So you know retiring there. Many people say I will retire. Some of course don't have a choice. If you work for a corporation you reach a certain age. You have to retire. But if you retire. Oh. What do you do? Some people say I have a hobby, but my view is a hobby is great.
00:10:42:11 - 00:11:14:08
Unknown
But a hobby usually does not have a objective that would drive you. And so, so that's, that's very different. When you have business, you have responsibility. You, you you need to move on. Right? Yeah. So, this one in second is, I, I, I wanted the business to continue because a business is like, a community, you know, the hive.
00:11:14:08 - 00:11:49:07
Unknown
I think of my business. You, here in Singapore alone, we have, like, 400, 450 employees. And I typically say if this each of these employees have their own family, and you will give you everything. You know, let's say I'm sorry. Then we have 1500 people. Depending on the success of the business here in Singapore. If this business is not successful, their job will be threatened and your money income will be trouble and their family will also then be threatened economically.
00:11:49:09 - 00:12:17:07
Unknown
And that's that's not a good thing. So I, I always say there is a responsibility in running a business, and their responsibility is to make sure the business does well so that the people who are depending on the business can continue to enjoy the lifestyle, whatever lifestyle they have. And live comfortably without feeling threatened, without feeling insecure, you know.
00:12:18:16 - 00:12:42:07
Unknown
And so it's difficult for me to back off when, when back in 2006 when I went to the employees. We need to take this business out of, Oh, Siemens, to a management buyout. Everybody step forward and say, okay, we are supporting now different people put in different amount money, but, invest a different amount.
00:12:42:09 - 00:13:06:03
Unknown
But but everybody in the company step forward. Two years ago when we did the same thing. But now it's a much bigger company. And, we have a some 900 employees in total. So about 50% of the employees step forward for the 50% of the employees step forward. And they say, okay, we put, we put, we put our, some of our savings into it.
00:13:06:03 - 00:13:35:04
Unknown
And, on the business. And that's, that's an obligation, you know, when, when people have this kind of trust in us and it is difficult to walk away. Right, if it's not the quantum because I always I always choose some guys who put up x this the he can afford. Another guy may put up five times the x, but that's the money you can afford, but not necessarily the.
00:13:35:04 - 00:13:55:12
Unknown
The guy who put up X is feeling less stress or less burden than the guy who one of five time five x because the guy who puna phi x he may be worth 100 x, right? Yeah. Y is a guy who put up one x. He may be worth only two x. And this is something we always need to bear in mind.
00:13:56:19 - 00:14:22:18
Unknown
Okay. So I mean you know you've had the experience of leading a big group of people in in your organization. When it boils down to it, like what advice do you always give to young people who are new to your organization. What what advice do you give them about? I will say with you be truthful.
00:14:23:22 - 00:14:54:20
Unknown
Tell the truth. Don't try to hide. And don't try to be paint a picture that is that there's some people like to do, you know, paint a nice picture and all those don't do that. State whatever it is ask you this. Be clear. Make sure everybody get the same information as a different level.
00:14:54:20 - 00:15:12:21
Unknown
As you know, when it comes to the business, when you send down the information, make sure everybody get the same. There should be no privilege. Just some people get a bit more. Some people get a bit more views. Some people get a it. There are certain things that you cannot be in any business which is the same is not public.
00:15:12:21 - 00:15:40:03
Unknown
Then you don't share. But if you want to share in public, make sure everybody get the same set of information. So be truthful and be honest at the same time if there is good news. Yeah, you can take your time to deliver the news, but if there is bad news, most my experience, most people tend to hold back the bad news until you cannot.
00:15:40:03 - 00:16:10:22
Unknown
You cannot go back and then you deliver. There's something that is, in my view, wrong. That news should be delivered then. Then and be quick. So that so you don't, you don't want the people around you to hear you from something that you small. Right. Yeah. You want it should come from you. So and that develops a lot of trust and faith in any relationship.
00:16:10:23 - 00:16:31:03
Unknown
Trust is important but also faith because the, the, the other party must have this feeling that he's going to deliver what he says. Right. And the same is mutual. And I also will have to feel the other party will deliver what he says. And there's a lot of fit in it. You have to have fit in in each other.
00:16:31:05 - 00:16:58:18
Unknown
And that to me is very important. Yeah. So I mean just speaking of, of further course. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of your employees that have been with you over the years have also somewhat become friends and all as well. So. Correct. Correct, correct. And just thinking about your friends that, that you know, are still with you and you still see often, you know, what do you find are the values of the friends that you surround yourself with all these years?
00:16:58:20 - 00:17:30:05
Unknown
What values are important to you? So that I think I will be repeating what I say, be open. Like the other thing I, I put a lot of effort in is that the, the core team that I work with, I mean, with so many employees, you obviously have to be on cultivate. The copy that I developed, I developed a relationship with not just them I develop a relationship with your family.
00:17:31:06 - 00:17:58:20
Unknown
With, with their spouses, with your children and my family as well will develop the relationship with. So among all the spouses and not as we all interact with each other, we socialize, we spend time together. The children also get when, when whenever possible we bring the children together as well. Some of the, their children and some, in my children, they all friends, they they they interact with each other.
00:17:59:01 - 00:18:14:17
Unknown
We travel together whenever we can. We have the opportunity to, to be on holiday together. We we travel together. So you cultivate that that the bond is.
00:18:15:02 - 00:18:44:19
Unknown
And of course like you say then it comes with the race like you don't, you don't, you don't lie, you don't. You must be truthful, you must be fair. And, and whenever a decision comes along and the decision will impact everybody. Right. If you have a core team, you intake everybody, including myself. But I will always make a decision that is more favorable to the rest, even though it may be unfavorable to me as the first step.
00:18:44:19 - 00:19:17:03
Unknown
And then if there is anything that is unfavorable to me, then I will address it later. But I should not let that affect my decision. Okay. So I mean just thinking in terms of the social circles is not right. Yeah. Is having a core group of friends very important for young people when they're starting on their careers, you know, like how important you think it is, depending on depending on what is the objective.
00:19:17:05 - 00:19:40:13
Unknown
Okay. There are different types of social friends, right? I think that's important because every one of us, we are human being. We we we all, all of us have a social circle, right? That social circle, social friends that you interact is more for your, friendship, emotional needs with friends and so on, you know, interaction and so on.
00:19:40:15 - 00:20:07:07
Unknown
I think that that, that everybody should have as well. Right. Then you talk about your career and your business, which is no focus because you are all in the same business, same company maybe. Right. Or maybe, in partnership with a few people doing business together. That's that group of partners or colleagues that you should also be your close friend.
00:20:07:17 - 00:20:43:12
Unknown
Right. Very good. If possible the closest friend you have. Right. Their group should be where you interact a lot. You need to know the family. You need to because the future of the business is dependent on this group being able to work together. And then that to me is really critical. You you need to know, however, to do that you have is more you can really go all these ideas and then go and look for this girlfriend.
00:20:43:14 - 00:21:08:23
Unknown
Most of us as young people, you, you, you, you, you, you start your career, you join your company, and then you meet your friends and meet your colleagues. And then within your colleagues, you can cultivate a close group. And and maybe the colleagues then has major influence over the business over time. And you you do that like in my case, this one I did.
00:21:09:00 - 00:21:37:05
Unknown
And the same the this team just carry on with the business and continue to grow the business. Right. There are other people who will join your company, get some experience, then decide to move out and be an end up winner. And then they get that they have to cultivate a group of friends to support him, just so that his his venture can be can be successful again.
00:21:37:07 - 00:22:05:08
Unknown
So it's different approaches. My case is more I am coming up with the same organization we cultivate together. I didn't leave my job to become an entrepreneur. I stayed on with my job and became an end up winner because then I became part owner of the business. Very true. So it's different. Different different situation I guess.
00:22:05:10 - 00:22:28:23
Unknown
But when it comes down to it cultivating that like like minded team of people that you can that the person can work with to achieve the objective that the, the, the group set out to achieve that is very important. And I'm talking about the business world. You know, there are of course other, other, other things.
00:22:29:12 - 00:22:55:03
Unknown
You can also have a group of friends who say, I want to be a very good golfer. Right. And they all go out and practice golf every day and become very good golfer. But there's different. There's social. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. Okay. I mean, but so just thinking about, when you hear the word love, what what does that make you think of?
00:22:55:05 - 00:23:33:18
Unknown
The one is, it's a little bit more emotional than being objective is a matter of the heart rather than the brain, right? Yeah. Well, I think it's all important. I mean, the to me, my my family is, is everything. And I always, tell my family I work hard. For what? I don't need to do whatever I been doing, for myself, because I really don't need, I don't need to to to achieve what I have to achieve for myself, but is more because I have a family.
00:23:33:18 - 00:24:02:04
Unknown
I have two children, you know, I have my parents, and my siblings. And, and I want to make sure that they, they get right along with me and, and, and have a, have a comfortable life. And, I don't mean in materialistic way, which is also important, but also in the emotional way. You know, they should be happy and, less stressful and so on.
00:24:02:18 - 00:24:32:11
Unknown
In, in whatever you want to do, I encourage my, my children to, to also start looking at being, moving from their career into, into the business world as they get older. And there's something that they have to do. So the stress and I always says, to me, stress is not an issue, right? I define stress in the positive stress and negative stress.
00:24:32:13 - 00:24:58:11
Unknown
Positive stress, all the stress that you put on yourself or people or the environment put on you so that you can achieve more, you can do better. Right. Those are good. Those keep going. The negative stress are the one that, that, that you, you are concerned about. Some people best stepping you and some people badmouthing you those kind of stuff.
00:24:58:13 - 00:25:26:12
Unknown
Those you don't need. Right. And your behavior actually dictates that if you behave well enough, you kill yourself well enough. The negative stress usually will not be a lot. There will always be, but will not be alone. So your, your your behavior is what drives this. But the positive stress is what you drive yourself right. You want to achieve this.
00:25:26:12 - 00:26:13:06
Unknown
You want to achieve that. Want to do this. You want to do that. Those are positive stress. And the the key is really to balance you know if you can drive on your positive stress because you want to address those with positive energy and then try to minimize the negative stress. And negative stress can only be minimized by you carrying yourself well, behaving yourself well, and so on, you know, don't, and, I used the word don't, don't, don't play the, the politics, which is not necessary, because we are recording this for as G60 and there'll be a lot of young people will be hearing this.
00:26:14:00 - 00:26:47:04
Unknown
I just wanted to ask you. So what do you hope for future generations in Singapore for the next 60 years? Oh, that's a that's a tough question. I mean, at a macro level, I will I, I hope Singapore will be able to continue to be a successful, country, so to speak. In the world. Well, position is to recognize, accept the, and we can still play a part in the world because that's important.
00:26:47:04 - 00:27:18:23
Unknown
You know, countries and cities and economy, if you look back historically, can become irrelevant when things change. Right. I give an example of cities like or a port like Manila. If you think of it, when they was sailing boats, Manila was one of the main stopping point, right? Yeah. And today. Yeah. Manila is a big city.
00:27:19:00 - 00:27:48:01
Unknown
The port that they play is Los. Actually, there are quite a few. Malacca used to be one. Right. And of course, Danang in Vietnam used to be another one. They were new, they lost. And, and Singapore has this position in the, in this current world that we still have a strategic part to play, but technology change because sailing boats becomes, today's big shift, right.
00:27:48:16 - 00:28:12:04
Unknown
And then it becomes irrelevant. So I hope Singapore will not become irrelevant in the next 60 years because I don't know what else technology will bring along. Right. So there's a there's a there's a big part. But for the young people, if we want to stay relevant to the rest of the world, then we have to work on it.
00:28:12:06 - 00:28:42:14
Unknown
We cannot take it for granted. And this is if you ask me. And this is a concern, I hear how many of us really are concerned about this and how many of us, taking taking it for granted because, it's not easy. I mean, and it comes with challenges. I mean, if you look at Singapore today, the per capita GDP is, I don't know, somewhere around 75,000 US.
00:28:42:19 - 00:29:12:15
Unknown
It's among one among the highest among the highest in the world, right. Other than the oil rich country. Right? Yeah. But can we maintain it? Because then you we look at the gap, we our with the surrounding countries, we have outpaced the rest. But can we keep it that pace? And if we can, then how can we how can we also continue to stay relevant and and and and let the gap get closer.
00:29:12:15 - 00:29:40:13
Unknown
Which is fine. Right. Because, I also believe that we can only be as, as, as, successful as we are if our neighbors are equally successful. You can't be the only one successful anyway, right? Yeah, but how do we continue to maintain the relevance? I think is my biggest concern. And and my concern is I think a lot of our young people are not seeing all this big picture.
00:29:40:15 - 00:30:07:21
Unknown
They're very happy they're brought up. We were, family, you know, economically, the country has been doing so well that, sometime we all forgotten that, what we have achieved is not just our personal effort. I myself, I don't believe I would have been this successful if I'm not in Singapore. If, I mean, in, without the main country.
00:30:07:21 - 00:30:56:21
Unknown
But you I mean, the in the in the more backward developing country, I think I will not be as successful because I do not have the platform. And Singapore has been very good to offer me the platform or. And this is something that I think it's difficult to feel, it is difficult to see, but I think is very critical because it is important, it is important that I think if I can I will you know, make it a point maybe in the schooling system or something at least, and highlight how places in the world has become irrelevant.
00:30:56:23 - 00:31:18:24
Unknown
Mainly a lot of it is because of technology change, right? Some of it are because of bad management, by politics. Or and the.
00:31:19:01 - 00:31:45:17
Unknown
Parents or there. Is there. Hello? Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I was saying that some of it is because of, technology change, a lot of technology change and. Yeah. And then so then city and country become irrelevant. But then there are some due to political changes, some due to poor, management, so to speak, and for governing of the, of the country.
00:31:47:07 - 00:32:17:20
Unknown
But that part of the history I think our young people should learn should know at least. Yeah. And then try to relate. Okay. Okay. That I if you ask me I think that's my biggest concern. How do we continue to stay relevant so that our next few generations can enjoy the kind of life that we enjoying today.
00:32:17:22 - 00:32:36:20
Unknown
I mean, I came up very poor. I, I grew up in, when I was a boy with not having enough to eat. Right. So I had the whole experience of the whole spectrum and I,
00:32:36:22 - 00:33:06:24
Unknown
Hello again. I hope you enjoyed listening to that for me. Words of wisdom is a project by Charlotte Go, powered by folklorist and supported by our Singapore Fund. To find out more, please visit our website at Folklorico com. That's all. Okay. O little r y.com. Goodbye.