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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hey everyone, it's me, Shue, and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we're talking with Dema Strausbaugh. She's a Chicago-based filmmaker and producer known for blending creative drive with organizational precision.
With six years of experience in short form narrative work, she's produced multiple short films, music video, and a commercial as well as directed two shorts of her own. She's a founding member of Film Girls Brunch Chicago and a coordinator for the Chicago Independent Film Symposium. Dema is also currently tackling the ambitious Filmmakers Mixtape Challenge, creating 12 short films in one year while also championing community and collaboration in Chicago's independent film scene. So there's lots of fun to get to chat. We talked about
difficult relationship between producing for others versus creating for yourself, the frustration of never having enough hours in the day, as well as what it takes to stay motivated when the film industry feels impossible. Let's talk about the art of self-discipline, pigeonholing, and how to just start making things imperfectly. So if that's what you're into, please stick around and listen. You can follow Demma's work at players underscore pod. That's the players.
podcast, a film industry podcast, and I'll have that in the show notes. But without any further delay, please enjoy a very lovely conversation with myself and Dema Strausbach.
Demma Strausbaugh (02:07.566)
There are two answers and one is the industry at large, which is just like the business of it. What projects are getting made, how they're getting made. How I'm feeling about that is as I learn more and I think see more a little, I don't want to be a downer, but bummed out. I don't want to be a downer, but it can bum you out really easily.
I think that it's a rich man's game a little bit in certain ways. mean, I really, hate to say it. And I am the big, I'm a big proponent of people empowering themselves with knowledge and being able to navigate the business and being able to have these discussions and put together their projects. And of course there are a ton of indie projects that are still getting made and I am rooting those people on. I just want indie filmmakers to also know that if
they're feeling discouraged, if they're feeling like it's impossible, that's why. And it's okay. And you can still, there's a way to move through it still. So that part of it just bums me out as I try and move higher. And then my own creative process, I would like to sum up by saying there's not enough hours in the day and I'm constantly frustrated with myself because
At the end of the day, I guess I see friends and other people and like, they're writers and they just write. When am I going to get to the point where I just write or when I just direct or pick up the camera as they say and try stuff. So I'm frustrated with myself, I guess. And I am generally as a freelancer, I'm still learning, but generally an organized person. so.
When I can't crack something, really frustrates me and writing is something that I have not been able to really crack yet. But once I do, it's over.
Mishu Hilmy (03:58.542)
Thank you so much for sharing it. think the feeling of either like frustration or impatience with time is totally, I think, relatable and I relate to it. it's, um, I think time is also like associated with energy and hearing you say kind of freelance work too. If you're doing freelance things that require a degree of creative thinking, I think it becomes easier to justify or rationalize like, I just did so much creative work for a client or for some other thing that it's, you know, 6 30 PM and.
It's sometimes hard to have those energy reserves to go like, all right, I'm going to write for two and a half minutes, something that I hate or like write for something that I don't believe in or I don't trust, or I just feel insecure or self-conscious on. Cause I don't think you can crack writing. think you can just do writing.
Don't say that to me. Don't say that to me.
You're making it fun, I don't know. But does that make sense? I don't know, I'm just thinking about that.
Of course, I think that resonates a ton and I was just telling a friend of mine that recently I had this night where I quote unquote kind of clocked out of what I was doing and was laying on my couch and felt paralyzed because my brain was like, come on ladies, let's get to it. Like let's get up, right, do something, do the thing. You have the whole night, you don't have any event, let's do it.
Demma Strausbaugh (05:15.79)
And so my brain was like dancing around in my head, but my body couldn't move and it was very strange and frustrating. But I think to your point too, it, don't know. can, yeah, just find time, try and find time to do it. Even if it's just a little bit of time and that's what, that's the secret sauce.
But I do think like there's something to be said about like your mind wants movement or action, but your body isn't able to do it. And I think I also connect with at least me projecting like a becoming overwhelmed. think creative people and curious people, it's almost like a blessing and a curse because with that creativity or that curiosity, it's like, well, do I meditate for 10 minutes? Do I work on this?
French lesson? Do I pull out my watercolors and do a doodle? Do I sketch? Do I write the short film I'm thinking about? Do I outline the feature I'm thinking about? Do I email an editor? So it's like, there's so many, at least creative choices that it takes practice to figure out what the priority is. And then even when you do figure out the priority, it's like, well, I'm not even going to do it because the industry is fucked or like no one's buying this or it's so difficult because of all the uncertainty. So.
I don't know. think it's kind of valid or I imagine a lot of it's just like feeling overwhelmed with the possibilities you have, especially if you have an evening that's completely.
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself. The long list of, I've decided I'm going to do this, but in what way? Where's the, and I think that's where classes can come in and be really helpful and useful. And I remember the point I was going to make earlier when I paused, so I'm going to make it. I'm excited. Wanted to say that too, I very much identify as both a writer director and a producer. And I think that what's so hard about this industry is that
Demma Strausbaugh (07:03.114)
It's so vast and it's so kind of loosey goosey in the way that people kind of break through in a certain way. And people are so desperate to find a clear path and so desperate to find some sort of consistency that when someone does something, I think they're like, okay, now that person does that and that's easy and I can go to them for this genre or this project or this. And so that I think is where the pigeonholing comes in. And when people talk about
people want to pigeonhole you in this industry. don't think it's necessarily because they just, well, I guess they do maybe want you to do one thing, but it's also just like, they're also trying to figure it out. And if you've figured out one thing, then they want to come to you to do it or whatever. And so I am always like, no, I'm, I'm very much both. And for me, the producing side, it's very natural for me to organize something, to make a list. love digging into the numbers. love.
bringing someone else's vision to life because I know that I only have one particular voice. I'm one particular writer and I love helping many different types of stories. There's so many movies, pieces of art that resonate with me on so many different levels.
Sometimes I wanna be entertained. Sometimes I wanna feel something. Sometimes I just wanna be surprised. And so I like being able to produce and help people do that. And I also, as a writer, director, want to explore certain themes and want to express myself creatively and show that vision. And I think to your point, because it comes naturally to me and because there's a little more process to producing and, you know.
I think as a writer, can talk to other writers, but maybe it's not the same story, but producers, know, there's a little bit of a shared camaraderie around that process and mentorship, but with creativity so vast, it's aimless. So I haven't practiced it as much as I've practiced the producing and I forget that. a friend brought that to my attention a couple of months ago and was like, well, you've been what, producing for?
Demma Strausbaugh (09:14.634)
X amount of years now, have you spent that amount of time being creative or writing screenplays or whatever? And I was like, no, I haven't spent that much dedicated time doing that. And so when you finally do get the energy and when I finally do sit down or do an outline or whatever, messy, it's sloppy, it's not good. And also the things that I like exploring, dark, sad.
dystopian, not exactly fun rom-coms. And so it's hard to live in that world and then also be like, and this work is garbage and why would I want to put this out? I'm going to go make a spreadsheet because that's a lot more fun. So I think when it comes to being creative too, it's like the forcing yourself to practice. And I've been trying to do that a lot this year. And I've also then
accepting that it's going to take me a long time. And I think that also is, you know, it can slow you down or make it seem really tedious. But you, I mean, you've written multiple screenplays, you know what I mean? Like I'm not, I'm not at your level either on the writing multiple screenplays. It sounds like you've done the practice and you're, know, you've gone through the rewrites and the development of the story. And I'm still trying to figure out that path and process for me. And I've cracked.
I guess I have cracked like a little bit of it and it's just, very slow. I'm very impatient. It's just really hard because as a kid, I feel like I've been rambling for a second, but as a kid, you are just so naturally wanting to explore and like be creative. And I think you're allowed to be creative cause you're innocent and fun. And like, as an adult, it's just kind of like they're weirdos. I don't know. So.
Yeah, it's, think it's a tough muscle and I know something you said about sort of, know, the muscles of producing, even producing I think is inherently boundary. And, know, when you're producing something, it's like, this has a shoot date. This has, you know, stakeholders, this has a list of problems that need to be solved versus when you're starting a creative endeavor, you don't even know what the problems are. And if you don't boundary it.
Mishu Hilmy (11:26.104)
Then it's like overwhelming. like, I have this idea of like a dystopia, you know, a dystopic world where X happens. Like, so you have at least maybe a concept, but maybe there's something of using your producer's tool belt to like create boundaries. Like, you know, it's hard to play ducked up goose if you don't know the rules. So similar to like writing a screenplay or an outline, like how can you make it as constrained as possible? And that might inject a little bit more play there. Like, okay, this, this.
play is like, I'm going to do five minutes today. And it's only, you know, I don't know, whatever it is to instill play. then that makes you think less about how shitty it is. How like straight or like lazy first thought, worst thought your ideas are. And you're kind of putting it more in a problem solving or a game format. that that's typically helped me in the past, but just hearing you talk about producing made me realize like, Oh yeah. Creativity is on the other spectrum of like, you could have it where there's nothing like it's just like, it's totally blank. And that.
all the energy dissipates because it doesn't know where to funnel to.
And you said something earlier where it was about what's the industry buying to? That's the hard part. There's two sides of writing a script and there is you, I think, wanting to explore something. One of my close friends does more what I would call entertaining work and it's genre. It's very high entertainment value while still having very, very relevant themes. And for me,
I'm not so much out to, I guess, entertain, but wanting to invoke a feeling in the audience and have them feel something that is, you know, an empathy towards the characters or a feeling of, I need to rethink my life. Like, I love that. And so, I just, think within that too, it's hard for...
Demma Strausbaugh (13:17.838)
me to write something because my friends is going to be, it's going to have more value in the eyes of the entertainment world because it can entertain and could be on many screens. And for me, it's one of those more like moody indie pieces that are a tough sell. So that's another layer of like, well, people want to
spice it up or like, do I make this more entertaining maybe and without compromising myself and my vision. And that's just when you're an artist and a painter, I'm not exactly, I mean, I don't know that world as much, but when I go to museums, I always wonder, I would find it hard to believe that a lot of them were painting thinking, you know, I want people to gasp at this point when they look at the painting, you know? And so it's, it's a lot of other moving parts about having an
audience already baked into your work a little bit that makes it hard to also make decisions and try and figure out how a group of people will react to your work. It's just, there's so many layers to it.
Yeah. And that's, think your decision as an artist, what you want to prioritize, because I think just to go back to what you mentioned, like at the beginning between there was a, you know, the personal creative and then just the feeling somewhat, you know, uncertain or despondent on just what the industry is looking for in general. that speaks to like,
Am I doing this for expression exploration? Am I doing this to make a multinational conglomerates money, aka distributors like Sony and A24 and all them? You know, what, what are you doing it for? So I think, you know, it's like, are you, if you're going to choose expression, I don't know how often you go to avant-garde experimental poetry shows, but there's expression, there's vibes, there's moods being evoked, but it's not necessarily.
Mishu Hilmy (15:09.1)
going to be entertaining or accessible. So if you're choosing to live in a genre or express yourself in a way that isn't as easily accessible, then how do you, you know, be okay with that and go certain parties aren't going to want to spend money on this and certain parties don't believe there's going to be a demand for it. And I think when it comes to choosing audience, it's like films or stories, demand can't be determined until it exists. And that's, that's it.
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what people try and figure out what distributors in particular have been trying to figure out since the beginning, I think. And I remember listening to another podcast about film and they put it into perspective for me about how the distributors are one of the only
companies that really can't control their product almost. And I thought that was a really interesting point of view because I'm like, yeah, that's true. mean, say if it was Target and you're trying to get shelf space and they were like, well, you won't know until it's on the shelf. And Target's like, well, then we're not gonna, you know, it's just, it's kind of like that. And so I think that's also what's exciting about film is you never really know what the audience needs or what's gonna happen at that.
time or in that world that would make something just so relevant in the times and interesting. that's one of the reasons I love, I think, sci-fi too, is it's inherently just otherworldly and it's inherently, it almost has like even more options. Well, it does, even more options of creating something completely from scratch, but it can.
help you just suspend what's going on. And I feel like sci-fi is just always relevant. And, but yeah, anyway, it's just, it's hard to write something. I was talking with, I feel like I've said that a lot, I was talking with, but a lot of it is just me venting to friends and trying to figure this out. But her name is Amy Powell. She's an amazing producer. She's in the, she's in Chicago and she, her and I were just talking about the script idea that I had and I was trying to workshop it and
Demma Strausbaugh (17:20.558)
figure out what it was I was wanting people to or what the character's journey was. And she brought up like, well, what is it you want the audience to feel? I was like, I don't care about that right now. Like, don't want to, I was just like, I don't really, I don't think about that right now. And she's like, well, maybe film. She's like, I think you need to, if you're going to be working in film. And I was like, darn, she might be right. But I don't know, do you think about that when you're writing or is it just like,
It's also hard for me to go into something thinking, I'm writing this for someone else. You know, I, at the end of the day, like I gotta be me and what is going to sustain me and make me tick to get through writing this whole screenplay. has to be something that interests me and it has to be something that I'm going to be curious about and want to dig into more and more. Like, do you think about audiences when you write?
Not when I'm writing though, I think there's like the Rick Rubin school, you know, the music producer, the audience comes last, like don't even worry about it, don't think about it. And then there's this sort of the opposite side of the spectrum of the audience comes first. And you know, you need to know who you're marketing toward, what you're feeling. So I don't think it's an either or binary. It depends on what works for you as someone who enjoys creating. Because at the end of the day, like I, more of like, it should, it doesn't matter because I'm not in control of what the audience will feel. I'm not in control of what they'll react to.
My goal is to like be present in the process and you know, curious and love the process, the labor being the reward. It's great if an audience sees it. I think the joy of technique and the challenge of craft is can I write a line that inspires laughter? That's the goal. You can write a line that you think is funny and that an audience in Chicago loves, but an audience in New Orleans hates. Like, so you don't really have control. I understand the spirit of that, like thinking about the audience, but at the end of the day, what gets you to finish?
version one versus version 20. And if version one, believe, you know, your first draft comes from the heart. And if that's you, you're the first audience member. You're the first person who's like reading and writing it. Like that's good enough. at a certain point in the process, as you expect more money questions around like, who is this meant for might start coming up. But if you can shoot a short on your iPhone over, you know, four hours, right, right. The, you know, page script and do it. You don't need to kind of be that heavy. I know it's kind of a non-answer, but I think I, I.
Mishu Hilmy (19:41.218)
facilitate between caring about it and not so much caring about it, but sometimes it's a good exercise to go like, well, what do I, if I'm using a Aristotelian five act scene, a structure, story structure, then it's like, well, what do I want someone to feel at the second act curtain? What kind of, you know, catharsis or transcendence am I hoping to evoke? But at the end of the day, you still can't control that. You can have a great script and just shoot it poorly or the music's off, but things to think about as you're building it out.
Yeah, completely. For you, when you finish these scripts, like, how do you know it's done?
I'm curious. Yeah, yeah. I think it's done when you're in post-production and the picture is locked. And there's nothing else you can do. know for me, it's like I won't share any drafts until it's like version 2.5 or 3. So that's like at least one threshold for me to cross of I'll write the first draft from the heart and usually I'll sleep on it for eight weeks. And then after eight weeks have passed, I'll read it. And it's pretty, pretty cold blooded of like, oh, this doesn't make sense.
this is lagging. And then after a couple of revisions there by two or three, I'll maybe email a couple of close friends. And I think it's, it's more of like, when is the script ready enough for me to feel excited to produce it? That's one question, or sometimes it's the opposite of like, I don't trust this. I don't believe in myself. So I'm just going to put up a casting notice and force myself to cast actors and then rewrite it as I'm in the middle of, you know, building it out. That that's worked somewhat successfully for me for like shorter projects.
Yeah, that's great. think for me, the thing that I was doing years and years ago was sort of writing with a kind of naivete and I love making concepts. I'm like great, I'm like a concept factory. I love a one line, ooh, what's this? And how does that work? Oh, that could be so cool. Just two sentences of something. And then.
Demma Strausbaugh (21:39.246)
It's the execution of that concept that is the, what you need to do, right? And so I, I will always think of like concepts when learners, whether I'm listening to music, whether I'm on a walk, whether I'm laying on the couch or.
or watching another film and then all of a sudden it just sort of hits me in a way where I think about something and the way I know that I'm gonna move forward with it is if I keep thinking about it. I don't keep an exhaustive running list. I used to email ideas to myself and then I had one long reply thread of just stuff that I would randomly think of or that would come to heart but that wasn't really working out and then it was just whatever.
seed that was planted in my brain for a concept that just kept coming back, that just kept haunting me a little bit is what I would move forward with. Then throughout the years of that, I started recognizing patterns of what interested me and what it was that got me to really be like, these are the themes then within that. And I think it takes a lot of self exploration and
giving yourself that direction to then move about, especially in this industry because another part of it is on top of all of the needing to filter down your concept. Think of the characters, think what it is that the characters are doing, what it is the world is doing, why they're doing it, what you're trying to explore, all of that. People are also
in your inbox, in your ear, if you're on set, this would be, I see it all the time where, and I love it. That's another thing, like I love it, but I am also, like what I've kind of not worn, but caution people to be like, always know what you wanna be doing because someone will come out and it'll be like, this concept would be so cool. yeah, you should get it. yeah, we can do it. We could do this, man. And then they'll do it and then.
Demma Strausbaugh (23:47.874)
all of sudden you're on the, you know, four years later on this other path that you're like, wait a minute, this doesn't feel like me. And it's almost necessary, I think too, sometimes for people to go on that and to really try different things, try different departments. I guess, you know, it's not a bad thing, but if you really know what you wanna do and you've done that experimenting, then, you know, stay with it. I've had people be like,
Do you have any horror? Do you wanna write horror? You should write this horror, it should be a horror. And I've had to be like, no, I have no interest. And I think it takes a very particular type of skill to do horror. And then within the horror genre, it's like, are you writing to scare people? Are you writing to explore something that's just inherently scary? Are you trying to tell a story and have some, you know, like.
have comedic or whatever elements like horror is its own special skill and I think something that's sacred to the fans of horror and whatever. anyway, just think that part, not only are you sort of battling yourself and trying to figure out what are the themes I like to write, what are the things I want to explore and then being able to communicate that to someone, you also have to have your work reflected too in a way.
And that's where it's hard when people want to pigeonhole you too. don't know. I think as a producer, I want to be able to do multiple things, but also as a writer director, I know what I want to explore and what sorts of films I want to make. And some writer directors, think that gets a little lost and it makes it hard for people to get behind their work. I don't know, am I contradicting myself?
No, I don't think so. Cause I think you spoke to earlier in this sort of production capacity and it just makes me think of like, think maybe three elements of trust, risk and attention. And like in this environment or, know, this industry, depending on what your goals are, if you're trying to really, you know, earn a living off of it, then it's, you know, a very uncertain and untrustworthy industry. it's like, well, this person.
Mishu Hilmy (25:51.202)
You know, they get a lot of attention for their comedic work. like, that's what they're, that's what I trust them to do. And that's what I'll, you know, reach out to them for. But you're like, no, no, I just want to write these very tonal, lyrical, meditative pieces. But they're like, well, you know, I've seen your shorts on YouTube or I've seen the work you do on TikTok. And it's so funny. Give me that. So I, I don't know. I think at the end of the day, depends on the intention of the artist and what system they want to operate in. And I think the default system is like, want to.
be distributed and I want to make money off of distribution, whether it's an indie distributor or a larger one, then that I think has a lot more, an infinite number of barriers of entry rather than a, like doing tone poems that are just mostly close up shots of people's faces. And then to have the courage to go, I'm going to make that month over month and not expect to spend a lot and not expect to potentially make a lot versus I think a lot of people are a little bit more traditional of.
Well, I'd better make it entertaining five acts scene structure or pardon me five act story structure and hopefully make enough pitch decks to get a few yeses from a different production groups or finance groups, which is totally fine. just depends on what you're chasing in any given journey of your artistic career.
Exactly. And that's where, to me, it's like that self exploration. that's what I mean. You have to be so rooted in what you want to do and what your goals are. Because if you're not, then you will go on this wild ride of other people who do know that and they kind of stick you in. then it's whatever you need to know. I've had people
be like, well, what is it you want to do? I want to write and direct, and I also want to support stories by producing. That's my dream. I would love to be able to write and direct and make money off a film and then be able to produce other little things and create that sort of storytelling ecosystem. That's the big dream. so that guides me. But I even still always have to be at the end of a week or at the end of a month being like, what am I doing to
Demma Strausbaugh (27:59.214)
to get a little closer there. Because if I don't know that, then all of a sudden I could be working as, I don't know, like a script supervisor on a set and what I, you know, it's just to me having that clear self-awareness. And I wanna work, I can tell the difference too, of people who speak so eloquently about their stories and.
speak so deeply and are just so thoughtful about the films that they made, the script that they wrote, minus someone who was maybe just interested in it and it just so happened to be a better collaboration. And sometimes those things work out and it's great, but I think you can tell the difference. So I just am, that's what I'm striving to be is someone who is very thoughtful and doesn't just do stuff to tick a box.
I was guilty of, I have been guilty of doing that because I was like, when the opportunity comes and you're sitting there and then all of the sudden you're being asked to direct you, you're being asked to do this thing that could be very exciting and you don't know when it's gonna happen again because it is very unstable. I'm like, okay, yes, we're gonna do it. But it was the wrong decision for what I wanted to do or what I want to say or who I want to support. So yeah, I think it's just.
it takes a long time to be very, very clear about what is it you want to do. see a lot of, for example, people who are like, I'm doing this coming of age story. And I'm like, that's great. It sounds great. The concept sounds great. But what, is this telling me about you as a person and like a filmmaker and also a writer? So is coming of age like your thing is that, you know, if you were to do something like that.
Or is it just like this particular story that you want to have a moment in time and then move on? I don't know
Mishu Hilmy (29:58.51)
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, everyone's on a sort of different path and it seems like you're, I imagine speaking to intentionality. Cause like, think it's great. There's a lot of learning from pain and a lot of learning from mistakes. So it's like when opportunities do come up and whether driven by naivete or insecurity or just plain old ambitions, like, all right, I'll take, I'll take this gig. I'll take this job. I think the risk is when you don't have the reflection afterwards to go, that was not a success or that was a learning experience, but I don't want to be a script supervisor.
Even if I'm making the most money I've made, cause I'm doing it every week or every day for a TV show. I'd never watch like some people, you know, need it for the money. Cause they're raising a family. Some people or believe that, you know, I'll start a scripty and maybe end up somewhere else, like whatever journey folks are on. I think the intentionality is like, I don't, have, I'm starting to believe this is distracting me from my, my, my goal or my vision and to, you know, course correct. And that takes, I think a degree of.
Either courage or just, you know, reflection.
Yes, exactly. That's what I'm saying. And I'm not saying don't take those jobs. Don't take those opportunities. We all need to sustain our lives and pay our bills 100%. And I've done that. think I'm just like, there's a difference between someone who is a little more aimless and just like wanting to direct to director, wanting to do a job just to produce or something. I, what I am interested in, who I want to work with are people who are very clear on that and can also like,
guide and collaborate on it. Because that's another thing that I think about too is what is it that painting, you know, can't do for me that filmmaking can. And I love the collaboration process and I love talking with other people and what it does for me as a person as like an introvert and being able to build that community.
Demma Strausbaugh (31:55.34)
I love that part of it. So, and that is just so inherently film on every level of it. Developing a story, putting a production together, watching the film. I love that. And I think that, I don't know, I just, love working with people who just are very intentional and yeah, reflect and take that seriously.
Yeah. mean, you like what you like and in terms of like nonviolent communication, it's strategies to meet needs. You know, there's, can meet your need for community. If you're a painter, it's just might look different. You know, you see them every month that shows, but as a, on the filmmaking side or image making, it's inherently more collaborative because of just the nature of it, but it could also, you can make your own solo thing where you're the actor, director, editor and all that.
I just seem, seems like you're more drawn toward like the experience of finding like-minded, passionate people who are trying to make something. And it's also an image, a painting is a, you know, typically a singular image that the impact is immediate. You know, you can look at it rather than a play or a movie. takes place in time rather than a singular moment in space. So even that is just like a different experience.
Yes, 100%.
Because it seems like there's a degree of intentionality, right? So then when it comes to that intention, and you mentioned earlier, sort of the struggles, like the body's like, no, I'm shutting down. I'm not doing it. Like, how do you sort of approach or find consistency or gentleness in those moments of discrepancy where it's like, I know I want to write, I know I want to direct, but I'm struggling to commit, prioritize, or make time to do one minute a day of this thing, or maybe.
Mishu Hilmy (33:34.89)
once a quarter emailing two actors and going like, Hey, let's go to the basement of the annoyance theater rent space for 20 bucks and just workshop a scene. Like, how are you dealing with the goals versus the struggle to execute on said desires?
Yes. How do I deal with the sleepiness? exhaustion, the anchor of everyday life. Totally. This is a work, it is an ever evolving work in progress. Recently, I will say my boyfriend works in tech and he does coding and he wants to develop his own app or software or language. know, I don't know the right word.
probably butchering this, but we sort of had a conversation and I was like, I am so sick of myself. I am so sick of saying I want to write and then not doing it or being afraid to write and it has become this out of control big thing in my life that I don't have a handle on and I get so immediately frustrated with myself, immediately mad at myself when I don't do it consistently, when I'm not writing, when I'm not this, that, and that.
And so him and I had a conversation about doing a sort of weekly check-in with each other and we've been doing it. We do these sort of like retrospectives on, you know, we want to get to a 10, what is a two? I will tell my progress or what I've been thinking about in Hillshare, how he wants to develop this app and how he wants it to come together and what he wants it to be used for.
That has helped both of us. think that what he does is very similar to the process of writing or what he wants to do. And then I had a conversation with some friends and I told them I was like, I would love to do just a weekly check-in with you guys as well. They work in film. Some of them have been guests on your podcast. And we get on a Zoom and I talk through the small, small steps. Try, I'm trying to...
Demma Strausbaugh (35:45.344)
approach it very gently right now so that I can take these baby steps towards writing an entire script and break them down into not as big of a thing so that I can get through it. So that has helped having someone who I live with who is willing to help me stay accountable and approach it very gently. I have had to give myself a lot of grace because there have been times where I'm
way too tired and my brain is just atrophied and it's like the last thing on my list. So I've had to just continually then forgive myself and be like, you'll figure this out. You're going to do it and fight the imposter syndrome of, you know, maybe I'm just better off as a producer. People tell me I'm a good producer. Nobody tells me I'm a good writer, director and all this stuff. So I'm like, maybe I'm just better supporting rather than whatever. It's just like this constant fighting of that urge and kind of babying myself into.
All right, just write this small thing. It's not set in stone. It doesn't reflect you completely. You can work this out. It's also been hard, I think, to be self-taught. In the space, I will be very upfront. I didn't go to school for film or really for writing, but I have really dove in and that's why I talk to so many people is to learn and share and how they deal with these things as well.
I think you just, people need to give themselves a lot of grace and a lot of experimentation, a lot of time for experimentation. The pressure to do things very fast, because like when a project is done and ready to go, it still takes like a year front to back for a feature film to be made or something. You know, it takes, and then it takes even.
longer to then premiere at a festival and then longer to come out on streaming. And so there is a lot of pressure to get things done quickly and efficiently and ready to go. But I, think you just, you have to come to terms with the fact that a lot, you know, a lot of those people get paid to write full time or they're, have a lot more resources than you and are privileged in that way. I, I am completely privileged to be able to do what I do as well.
Demma Strausbaugh (38:04.374)
I try and encourage people, don't compare yourself to me because it's so different, you know? It's just a lot of experimentation that I guess to bring it full circle, like you said at the beginning, I don't think you can crack writing. It's just like this ever evolving lifestyle.
Yeah, yeah. There's so much there, you know, like I just think like everything has its price and we don't see the price people are paying, you know, whether they are privileged or have resources. So it's like, that comparisons game is going to destroy you. then like for me, I have this little robot on my desk to remind me like I'm not a robot, you know, like that.
So it's like, yeah, the, you know, living in a capitalistic sort of system, a labor, forced participation in the marketplace type system. think productivity becomes its own fetish and its own expectation versus like, how can you approach the work through curiosity and gentleness versus like a should energy, even like Joseph Campbell's theory of like, you know, kill the dragon of should follow your bliss. So it's like, all right, how am I following the bliss out of joy rather than like, well, I have to do this.
know, yeah. I also, to a certain degree, and this is when I'm feeling bad about writing, I am comparing myself, I am mean to myself, I am not doing it, not getting anywhere close to doing it, I am quitting, you know, I'm just, it's a lot of negatives when I'm feeling bad towards writing. When I'm feeling good towards writing, I give myself grace.
And I ultimately am reminded and give myself to this idea of timing and that for a long time I used to be really, really hung up and frustrated on the fact that I felt that so much of a big chunk of my life leading up to where I am now was a waste of time. I, I mean, really I was like, I was just a kid out of control of all of these elements and it just.
Demma Strausbaugh (40:06.188)
You know, there's a lot of time spent on recovering and healing and even figuring out what I want as a person, who I am as a person. Then when I finally did, I'm what, like 28? I'm 30 now? Hello? Like, and what, I want to just work in film, but I'm 30, you know, and I just get inside my head. so, but when I'm feeling good and when the inner, the self-talk is healthy and when I'm encouraged about myself, about the industry, about creativity.
I'm just ultimately get the sense of peace that the timing of it will work out because I've gotten to this point. So I have to believe there's some reason why I haven't cracked it yet. And maybe I never will quote unquote, you know, get those scripts out or whatever, but.
I will have gotten the opportunity to write some and like that's enough for me. Like it has to be enough for you too. And so I kind of regang a sense of power when I'm thinking in those terms and that's a little, know, hippie dippy and it's not as action. It's not as actionable and some people might not find it soothing, but I think it's like, find the thing that, you know, I just shared what made me feel bad, what made me feel good.
Find the thing that makes you feel good because that's also very, important when it comes to just, I think, the process and yourself and the health of your life and the health of your creativity.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of self-reflection and self-determination to define what is successful, what is enough, what is a beautiful life. And I even sort of these default modes of thinking of like 30 under 30, I didn't break it in my twenties and it's a fetish of youth culture. And it's also like a subconscious belief of like, as I get older, I have less and less value, which is like.
Mishu Hilmy (42:02.606)
Where did that come into your mind? You know, is that through culture? Is that through media? And, know, it's totally reinforced through culture and media, but to go, do I want to choose to hold onto this belief and how do I do the hard work of like dismantling this toxic belief? think people don't meditate on late blooming enough or late bloomers. even if you don't get whatever sort of typical success is, it's like to have the patience or the practice to define it yourself. Cause to me, I'd rather have a life where I'm like,
I enjoy what I do and I'm curious about what I do and I'm light and playful about what I do versus like having traditional extrinsic success, but I'm miserable and anxious all the time. Like I don't want to pay that price.
I think because ultimately, even though when I shared what I want to explore are themes of grief, of how you move about in a world where society is collapsing around you, how do you survive something horrific, how do you heal from trauma, these are things that I love writing about in my own way.
I know I said earlier, it's dark and it's not commercial and it's not necessarily comforting, but to me it is for some reason, you know? And so that's why I do it. And I think that that has to be at the core of what everyone does is like, why am I, what is this about? What is it about this? And I almost hate.
This is where like then the producer comes in where I'm like, yeah, but what are the actionable steps that I can tell people? Because I've been there where I'm like sitting listening to interviews and I'm like, this all seems like lip service. And I don't know what they're trying to tell me, but I hope, you know, that this gives some people some sort of compass into which they can move about their work or figure out what they want to do.
Demma Strausbaugh (44:03.342)
or write about, or if they already know what they're writing about, feel encouraged to keep doing it. I just want to be encouraging. Cause like I said, even, you know, even though I was like, yeah, I'm bumped out. That doesn't stop me. And it doesn't make me give up on it because I think that the way it doesn't bump me out is talking with people like you and talking with other indie creators and other people who are still fighting those big studio systems and the formula.
stories and trying to get their perspectives shared, like told.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's an interesting thing to chase. also think like, for me, it's like, I have a belief system that helps me operate decision-making, which is nonviolent communication and like that need for choice. And it's like, what, what are you choosing to do to meet the need? Because, you know, I think writing or creativity can meet that need for meaning, can meet that need for community expression, growth. And sometimes it can meet that need for financial security, but most times it.
doesn't, but it's like to go like, this the most effective way I can meet the need today? And, you know, if writing is playful, then great. I'm having play. I'm doing, did five minutes of like writing and goofy character, but if it's not to be okay with that. like, hopefully, yeah, I think there's no kind of guarantees in it. If you're pursuing a very difficult industry.
What's the best way to pursue it? Like maybe I think incorrectly, I'm obsessed with information and the more information I have, the more I can have a grounded and well-rounded thought about the world I'm in. But then it sometimes breeds a degree of like cynicism or like, wow, this is more I learned them more difficult. I realized all this actually is.
Demma Strausbaugh (45:50.486)
Yeah, completely. also think, and I want to encourage people to kind of going back to that note about the time and creativity and this business can also be just all consuming with your time and trying to, you know, sustain the paying of the bills and the having a day job or having a crew job that's 14 hour days, that's very physically demanding or trying to just
travel and go to the things and do all the, it's just, it can eat up your schedule very, very quickly. What the quote unquote waste of time, times did in my life was give me a non-interrupted experience, layers of experience and just meeting different people and having just living life that
inherently informs kind of your stories too. And so I also outside of just trying to write stories and work in the industry as a producer, a whatever, as a creative, it's like almost what people are chasing within their stories or wanting to write or whatever. It's like, they also forget that that comes from just living life. So I also think it's just so important to make sure that, you know, the slice of pie that
takes up in your life isn't like it's not the whole pie, it's just a certain amount of slice and you're also continuing to live and that's, I don't know, just as important because then you almost see it too when filmmakers get bigger and when they start writing story, it's like they kind of lose that thing that interested you in the first place and they're whatever and I think it's because they get so sucked in and then they're busy and then they're not like.
living life with the people who kind of inspired them or that like the in those situations that gave them the inspiration for the story. It's like that is also just as important as staying in touch with humans in general. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (47:55.948)
Yeah. Yeah. I think balance is very important and you know, people are interested in success for many varied reasons and people have ambition for many varied reasons, but I think to practice intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation to like really reflect on like, am I really doing this? Cause I want sort of the red carpet experience and the glitz and the glam and people adoring and liking the work or am I doing it? Cause it's.
an internal drive and neither is right nor wrong. But I do think long-term, if it's very external based, you're probably going to be in for a world of hurt. then it also makes me think, I think a couple of years ago, I would just reflect a lot on tired of making other people money and any industry like that's, that's how you build trust. Hey, did the thing you do, did that make some people money? All right. Even if it was a little bit of money, I, okay, I'll take a meeting. think I'll listen to you and.
I think this can make us more money. yes, here's the green light. Like that's, that's my cynical take of like, it's all about how, how regularly can you prove that you can either make other people money or demand attention consistently.
Yeah. Also red carpet experience. Scary. They're not as fun as you think. Like you get there and it's yelling and it's like, I don't know. That never motivates me. And I'm also interested what to you is success. You've brought that up a couple of times that I've wanted to be like, okay, you know, people defining their, success levels and what they want and being able to give themselves their own pat on the back or I don't know, validation like to you, what is it that you feel success is?
Yeah, I mean, it can evolve, but it's the quality of the labor. It's the labor is the reward. Like am I, when I decide to send you an email, was I mostly present or was I feeling resentful that I need to send an email? When I decide to sit down and write something, was I approaching my chair with curiosity, lightness in my heart, or was I approaching it with like the discipline of like, I have to do this, I should do this. And it's not going to be a hundred percent all the time, but to me, success is like, am I living a life that's light?
Mishu Hilmy (50:01.582)
playful and curious and the people that matter in my life are being treated well, friends and family. That's, I think the only definition of success that makes sense to me rather than did I make a short film this year? Did I make a movie this year? Did it get accepted? Like any of those extrinsic things don't really matter to me, but I think I'm more motivated by process and people. And that's, that's usually what I try to anchor success in.
That's beautiful. Did you resent me when you were sending me an email about this podcast?
No, no, no, not at all. Yay!
Okay, it was a success. That's beautiful. I feel like I don't have an answer. I'm kind of, you know what, no I do. I don't know why I said that. I think when I move about and when I think about writing directing, I would be so lucky to make a feature film. But when I make it, I want it to be very effective and I want it to be very well done and intentionally done. And I want it to
Hey, what's the success? Yeah, yeah.
Demma Strausbaugh (51:03.584)
invoke a sense of, if I could make someone cry out of joy or because I helped like hit something for them, this sense of, I don't know, nostalgia or something, that to me, I would be like, my gosh, I've done it. Like I've done something that helped, I don't know, someone feel better or even like.
I know it's gonna sound mean, but even worse, if they need a release, you know what I mean? And they watch the film and they've been avoiding something or avoiding thinking about something and then they think about it and it helps them release it, whatever. That to me would be the biggest honor is making someone cry. But it's like, don't wanna just make, I think at this point in my career, I could finesse up something to put together a feature film.
But I'm just so not even, to me, I'm like, no, like I need to grow. I need to figure out writing something that's effective. And then I need to figure out executing on that vision and making sure that what is on the page matches what is on the screen and how it looks and getting the right performances and all that entails. Like that to me would just be the biggest honor. I'm not interested in really anything else. I mean, I was, I don't know if you've heard of the film We Grow Now.
Yeah, yeah, Chicago. Yeah, I haven't seen it yet, but it's been doing really. Yeah, was in Chicago International a couple of years ago,
Yes, yes, exactly. Watched it and I just thought it was beautiful. was so, I thought the way it was shot, thought the kids were so sweet and they did such a good job, these little actors. I was just like, that's, you know, when I say these things, sort of like what I think about because, you know, it's very indie. It's not like it got an A24 release. It could have, I'm not saying it couldn't have, but it was beautiful. And I was like, that's what I mean when I say it.
Demma Strausbaugh (53:02.816)
I want to make something regardless of, I don't know what the conversations were behind closed doors. I don't know what they were talking about with marketing it. I don't know if they thought it was wide release or if they wanted to do more community screenings, whatever it was. I just think that's, was like, it just, to me it felt like it didn't, getting it to be big and huge, although I'm sure they would have loved that, didn't.
to me didn't seem like the point of that film. Like she just wanted to make it and she was so, when she speaks, she's just so thoughtful. And so that's what I'm like, okay, she researched and she was very serious about the way it was shot and very intentional. I'm like, and it's just, it is like emotional and I don't know, and beautiful. So anyway, I feel like I'm talking in circles, but that's what I mean by when I'm like, I wanna execute on something that.
is really meaningful to me as a storyteller and then becomes meaningful to people who watch it.
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Like to me, I imagine it's like maybe a couple elements of, it seems like you really value when it comes to something being effective, I imagine it's like the challenge and the growth of can I make something that is, you know, that's hard to do. And can I use the tools and the craft available to me to succeed at what my intended desire is? So think there's a need for growth and challenge there. And then it seems like maybe you also really value contributing to others and having an impact on someone's day or their moment in the theater.
where that seems to be maybe an indicator of success of, I contribute to them? Did I create an impactful experience, emotional experience, growth or catharsis? So that's, think maybe something for you to lock in or know about like, what motivates you more? Okay, maybe it's focusing on things that have an impact rather than maybe the process isn't your starting point. Maybe, you know, focusing on process doesn't get you to get on, sit down and write, but maybe imagining impact might.
Mishu Hilmy (54:58.156)
help, which is somewhat ironic given you're like, when should I think about the audience? Impact is something that's important to you then maybe that's something to play around with.
I
Demma Strausbaugh (55:07.086)
Well, thank you, Mishu. I feel like that unlocks something for me. This is therapy on the air with Mishu.
I appreciate it. Given how uncertain and challenging, you know, creativity is and the industry is living in this strange planet we're on, given how uncertain it is, like what are you doing or what have you found working for you to kind of keep you, you know, motivated or present or light?
question to keep me motivated. think about my life without film because that's always an option, right? I just dip and I swear a couple people might notice, but the industry will just keep on pushing and everyone will be like, she's out now, know, whatever. And it would just be another day. But I think about what that would look like. How would I fill my time? What is it that I would do? What is it? Who is it?
you know, what would I talk about it? I would just like then just be seeing the films. I'm like, but you know, it just, it feels, although in the industry, it does cause a lot of stress. I'm a person who likes routine. That's just not possible, but I'm also a person who likes change and whatever. When I think about giving up film and trying to work as I could do project management full time and just go from there.
There's a certain immediate emptiness, I think, I kind of feel. And I am just like, that's not the answer here. Today, that's not the answer. You know, maybe eventually in my life, but today that's not, that's not good enough. So maybe it's just, need a break for the day, but I'm, constantly checking in with myself. I am better about taking time to rest and taking time to heal. I've been dealing with like,
Demma Strausbaugh (56:58.606)
chronic pain in my life for five years now. And last year I was so bad about taking care of myself and I just, let it consume, I let them just, the work consume me to a level that was way too unsustainable and unhealthy. So it's a balance and I think the way I stay motivated is just continually striving to be well-rounded and healthy and still checking with family and friends who aren't in the industry, hang out with friends who are and.
and also just enjoy the product. I think when you see a film that you're just like, got me. That really, got me, like, man, that just, that motivated me to then get up and go out and make something or do something, or I can't wait to talk to someone about this. I find that just so great and exciting and motivating. think being on set is, being on set, it's almost like spiritual for me, because I get, I mean, seriously, it's crazy, but it's like you get into this like,
hive mind and you're all, don't know, in this collective consciousness working towards this piece of art that I don't know. You don't know how it's going to turn out because you're not, unless you're the director, but even then it's exciting. I don't know. I think there are so many elements of it that I find really exciting and motivating, but those are the big ones that come to mind right now. I could keep talking, but I need to stop myself.
Well, yeah, thank you so much, Deva, and it's been a real joy to get to chat today.
I know, I've enjoyed each time we've hung out and I'm so impressed today. was just like, Misha is so well spoken. So cool, I feel so lucky.
Mishu Hilmy (58:47.342)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. All right, let's do a prompt. This is an energy audit tonight or today. Take five minutes to list which parts of your creative work
actually give you energy in which quietly drain energy from you. Then take a look at your week and swap just one slot from the draining side to the energizing side. Give it a shot. Take a few minutes and list them out. Think about it. And yeah, I think this can draw on behavioral self-monitoring research showing that awareness reshapes habit. And there you go. Do a little energy audit and try and find some more balance in your creative life.
List things that fill you up and list things that drain you and try and replace the ones that drain you this week. All right. Thanks for listening this far.