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A growing community of educators, mentors, and lifelong learners who believe in the power of connection, shared stories, and showing up for one another - again and again
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So Jay Greenlinger
is here with us on The Bridge.
I'm excited to reconnect.
It's been a beat.
But we have a long history and we have so
many wonderful people in common and it's
kind of a no-brainer to get Jay on here
to share his leadership story and his, his
journey over the, the last 10, 20 years.
Jay, we will have your bio in the show
notes, but why don't we start with just
kind of what you've been doing for the
last chunk of time and where you're
at and kind of what you're bringing
to educators that might be listening.
Jay Greenlinger: Thanks.
Thanks Cate.
And it has been, I, I know it's been a
couple decades, which is like bothersome
as you know, to say, because that,
'cause then people will think we're aged.
But yeah, you know, I my path has
been pretty, I think an ordinary path.
I started working in summer camps,
which made me think, gosh, I want
to work with kids all the time.
So I became a teacher.
Yeah.
And you know, I was a teacher for
a while and I said, gosh, you know,
I think I could affect more kids
if I were an administrator and I
became a dean at a middle school.
Which is like, could be its own podcast
of people who work in middle schools.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): here.
Middle school history teacher
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): 10 years.
Jay Greenlinger: Good lord.
That's like.
It's a transitional species
that middle schooler.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it.
All of they're awkward.
I'm like, I am so here for your
awkward, let's do it together.
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, I think middle
school, what I've learned is that
middle school teachers and kindergarten
teachers, and now maybe TK teachers
as well, are like a different breed
of, of professional it's, it should
be its own credentialing program.
I think it's different, but anyway.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I
think it's different too.
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, and so, you know, I
went from a dean of students to principal.
And then we really during the next
phase when I was director of technology
for a school district is when I think
I was most connected with you and with
CUE and all the great work that, that
transitional time when all of a sudden
we started handing devices to every
kid and teacher and said, here you go.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah,
Jay Greenlinger: know,
here's the internet.
Right.
We give everyone free reign of the
internet, which is interesting.
Because now all I read about is taking
away free reign to the internet and, and
getting kids back off the devices, so,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): a hundred percent.
And like all the child, I mean, again,
maybe it's because we've paused like, and
we're, we're processing through the impact
of some of those decisions, but it's also
Jay Greenlinger: mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
that AI is exploding.
And so there is like, it's just
this really weird dichotomy of like.
like retrieving control, but then
also being in a space where we
can't control and Okay, we digress.
Keep talking.
We,
Jay Greenlinger: That's fine, but.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): way, Jay,
you, you, all of a sudden you were
like, and then I was a principal
and then I was a tech director.
So like at some point, can you
just tell how did that happen?
How'd you turn that page?
Jay Greenlinger: Oh, so we,
so I was the principal in it
was a pretty small district.
I've only worked in like small
to medium sized districts.
This one, this one had 11 schools which
is the biggest district I've worked in.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: We were, we had a,
a new superintendent and she wanted
to be the first in the county to go
one-to-one, and she came over to my
school one day and she sat in my office
and she said, you know, you're really
good principal, but we need to go
one-to-one and I need you to lead it.
And I said, okay.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Jay Greenlinger: and so she, so at
the time, the position was Director
of Technology and I, and, and I said,
I'm willing to do this, but I want
you to change the title to Director of
Instructional Technology, because it was
really important to me that it wasn't
just seen as, you know, a device and you
know, a conduit to the internet, that
it was seen as an instructional tool
and, and that, you know, kind of paints
a picture of kind of how I see things.
In, in terms of school leadership.
So yeah, so it wasn't just like a one day,
it was a, you know, transitional period.
And for, for I think half of the, the
last year I was principal for half of the
year I was, I was part-time working in
the technology department, laying some of
the groundwork, technologically to make
sure we were ready to go to one-to-one.
'cause our network
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: like wouldn't have
handled 6,000 devices or whatever it was.
We had to do a lot of of work
ahead of time before we even
started handing out the devices.
And then from, from that point, it was
like, a hundred miles an hour, here we go.
Here's every devices.
And then, you know, at that,
at that time that was the time
of the, to the age of the TOSA,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Jay Greenlinger: I like to call it.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah
Jay Greenlinger: and so I, I had a,
a great group of TOSAs many of whom
are now principals and or directors.
And they, you know, they got their
first dose of leadership, but then
also we were real, really able to keep
a instructional focus on that time.
And, and yeah, so there's a lot
of, commonalities with what I see
right now and the age of AI, right?
So, you know, I remember
teachers saying, well, they're
just gonna Google the answers,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right,
Jay Greenlinger: you know, and now
they're just gonna say, well, they're
just gonna ChatGPT the answers.
I don't know if there's a difference.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
Jay Greenlinger: if at one point
they said, well, we can't give
them Encyclopedia Britannica.
All the answers are in there.
I, I don't know.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Jay Greenlinger: there a difference?
I'm not sure.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
No, I have thought about
that long and hard too.
And, and I just happened to be in a
position here in Santa Barbara where I
was leading the, the tech charge for
our county when chat GPT dropped in 2020.
Two, was it 20?
22, 23?
I think it was 23.
November of 23.
Yeah.
No, it was a day.
It was a day.
I feel like it was like November
16th or something crazy like that.
Like Oh my gosh.
Anyways, and it, yeah, I.
I think, I think it's the pace that
it's happening as, as a TOSA that kind
of lived, like I was a previous TOSA.
I became a TOSA in a small school
district in northern California in 2013.
And so without, with just an, I
had passed an admin credential test
and so I, that was my only like,
permission to lead that I had gotten.
And, and I felt, I mean, like when I
was in the classroom and all the tech
apps were dropping, like there seemed
to be more of like a, like I was still
in control of what I was bringing to the
kids and what I was exposing them to.
'cause they weren't getting
it all on their own.
Whereas now with AI, I feel like it's
like it's happening to the teachers
and they're not in control of it
and it's happening to the leaders.
And I don't know if that's something
you've seen in your own more recent
journey and maybe we can actually
talk about that a little bit.
Like, so.
The AI stuff when as a, as a school
leader, that, what did that look like?
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
And, and, and it's tough too because
you know, when, when we talk about.
The age, like the age of Google, right?
When you go back to 2013, 2014, and,
and we started giving all the students
devices, we were at least still
in control of their access, right?
Not ev, not, not every
kid had a mobile device.
Many did, but not all now.
And, and pretty much every community
kid, every student has their own personal
device and so you, you can't control
access like you used to be able to.
And so I think that's what really
gives teachers pause because they're,
they're no longer in complete control.
And, and I'm, I'm not saying
this is a negative thing.
It's not, it doesn't, I don't want it to
sound like I'm, you know, it's derogatory,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: but as a teacher,
you are, you are orchestrating
a learning experience,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Jay Greenlinger: right.
And so that's part of the job is
you're, you're orchestrating what,
what's happening in, in some fashion.
Even if you bel, you know, you're
a full constructivist, you're still
build, you're still providing you
know, a scaffold for the experience.
And so you, without knowing, without
having influence or control over
what the students have access
to it makes it a little bit more
challenging and uncertain for teachers
because, and I, and I think this is.
You know, my wife's a teacher.
I've got four kids in high school.
Like I, I see a lot from, from
that point of view as well.
And I think making sure that we know
the authenticity of work is important.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: And I think that's
what, I think that's what teachers
are looking for is how do I know this
is authentically from this student?
And, and I think that's a challenge
and it's, and it's hard because
teachers don't have the training
or the tools to determine that.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And we try.
Right?
We give them like, turn it in, you know?
And, and you know, I know there's
other tools that, you know, can
assess whether a written piece
was, was crafted by generative ai.
But there's also a lot of false positives.
So, it's hard And, and I think it's
more complex than the, than the
Google Age when we were just worried
about kids Googling the answer.
Right.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And there's
always been a sense of that.
You know, I remember when the app came
out that you could just hover over a math
problem and it would do all the work for
you and give you the answer and like show
you the steps and you just had to copy
down the steps and copy down the answer.
And look, I, you know, I solved this
equation which is probably, if I, that
was available when I was in I algebra
two or whatever, I would've done that.
I would've taken advantage of that
a hundred percent was way, way
better than doing all the work.
Right?
And so I think that's, but I
think that's what gets to the,
you know, teacher's hesitations
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: I want kids to
learn how to use these tools,
but, but not rely on them
Cate Tolnai (she/her): on him.
Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: and not, and to not repl
not replace learning with these tools.
And, and that's the hard part.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So you, it sounds
like your leadership journey took a
pretty traditional path with the exception
of like, oh, come be a tech director
for the district at the tail end, but,
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
Well that wasn't the tail end,
that, that was halfway through.
That was like.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Halfway through,
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, we got, we got
off topic, we started talking about ai.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Back to that
Jay Greenlinger: so I, yeah, after
being a tech director for, for a
handful of years I really wanted
to get back into curriculum and
instruction a hundred percent.
And I actually returned to the school
district where I started Oak Park
Unified and led the Ed Services
department there for six, for six years.
And that was.
I mean, that was obviously
formative time for me.
One, because of just the amount
of responsibilities I had.
I started out running Ed Services
with a day and a half a week
of administrative assistant.
And that was, that was the department.
It was me and I had, and I
had, I had Linda O on Tuesdays
and a half of Wednesdays.
And so, which was great because I had
to learn everything about everything
from preschool to AP calculus.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Jay Greenlinger: and so.
Also, note that was a school district
that was pretty, pretty progressive
for a public school district where, we,
were pretty healthy risk takers in that
district in terms of what we felt was
best for kids and creating that climate
of care before we worried about outcomes.
And so we made a big
focus on student wellness.
Physical and emotion,
social, emotional, and then
environmental education and, educating
for sustainability were top priorities
in that, in, the school district.
And so we were really able to chase a lot
of the things that mattered to kids and
mattered to, to the community in, in a
nice small neighborhood school district.
So I did that for six years and
then, the, you know, Ed Services
changed over that time because
the advent of the LCAP occurred,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: which was something
that was something for, for all the folks
who are involved in the LCAP writing.
Bless you.
So, you know, the age of
accountability really came full bore.
And then following the pandemic and
our return from the pandemic, we had
ESSER, we had ELO, we had the LRBG.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh
Jay Greenlinger: We had gosh, I
could name about six of those plans
that we had to create, you know, to
show accountability for, for student
learning and, and so anyway, so that
be, that changed the job a little bit
of Ed Services where accountability
was really first and foremost,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Is
Jay Greenlinger: Before.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): that because of
the influx of money that was coming in
Jay Greenlinger: A lot of it, I mean,
yeah, all those plans were tied to money.
So like the ELO-P and the ELO-G
came out and that was tons of money.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: the learning recovery
block grant was a ton of money.
And then the ESSER the
recovery funds were of huge.
It was all, they were all tied to money.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and people don't
Like when, right, like there's
this other side of it where
of course, people had to be
Jay Greenlinger: mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): held accountable,
but geez, Louise, to the point of where
it just kind of strips the humanity away.
It's, that's a lot.
Jay Greenlinger: Well, it, I mean,
basically every board meeting we had
two a month, every board meeting I
was doing like massive presentations
with plans and, and budgets and.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: you know, how
are we gonna measure impact and
all these things, which was great.
'cause I really honed my, like,
data collection and data reporting
skills and my budgeting skills.
The CBO and I shout out to Adam Rouch.
We, we were like two peas in the pod.
Our, our offices were right next to each
other so that we could, I mean, ever,
because everything I did cost money,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And every, every
dollar I spent, he had to account for.
So we, you know, I think.
It, it felt a lot like what it
felt like when we had categoricals,
where it was, you know, you had to
really pay attention to where you
were spending those dollars and on
what, and did it meet this criteria.
But then adding the goal oriented approach
that all of those plans had outcomes and
goals really increased accountability
and I think was, which I think was fine.
Right?
You give us all, you give us.
You increase our district budget by 25%
over the course of however many years.
Like, you better hold us
accountable for that 'cause I'm
sure it's easy to, to waste it.
But we were, you know, we were able to
spend it on things that really mattered
to kids, and we built an infrastructure.
For, for MTSS, for multi-tiered
system of support that was able to be
sustained after the funding went away.
Mm.
And so that was super important because we
didn't have a good structure before then.
And so we were able to use those funds to
build the structure and make it something
permanent and not a temporary program that
would've gone away when the funding ended.
So, you know, using those opportunities to
create something substantial and lasting.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: what
it's all about, right?
Because, you know, today, today 200
kids in that school district are gonna
get academic support because of the, of
the program that we were able to build.
So that's, that's, you know,
what it's all about, obviously.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): totally agree.
In fact, I was able to work with an
organization called Take Action Global,
and one of the one of the big pushes
that I saw is, gosh, there's all this
ELO-P money and this is such a great
opportunity for schools and districts to.
Like, learn about this global action
work, actually implement projects
that are sustainable past the ELO-P
money because those monies are
not gonna be available forever.
And so everything you just
said totally resonates.
And I think is it, it's interesting to me
to hear you like your, your energy shifted
when you started talking about the, when
you started dropping the acronyms and.
It really did.
I could feel it.
And, and it's like you went
into a head space of like
operations and logistics Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
Administrator.
Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
And as.
as a classroom teacher, there's
just such a wide disconnect
between, gosh, this is what I want,
this is what my students want.
Versus like, everything you just
described, you're like, every
dollar I spend has to be accounted
for in the business office.
Like that is just the way this works.
So it's interesting to me to also
hear you say like, no, we were, we, we
have been centering student wellness.
We've been centering
environmental education.
So like, how do you stay true
to those areas of impact when
you're also wearing all the
operational and administrative hats?
Jay Greenlinger: In that, in that
role, in that district at that
time it was very easy because our
superintendent was, we were, we
were all enacting the same vision.
Our board was unanimously
behind that vision.
And they were the biggest
champions of that vision.
And so and the climate and
culture of the school district
that time was, was super healthy.
Where it, and it was also
like a rights size district.
So I've always felt very strongly that
about what, what I call like a right size
district, and that's a district where I
can just get my car drive for a couple
minutes, stop by the classroom of the
person who asked the question and say,
Hey, Russ, let's just talk this out.
Like, let's just figure it out.
And so, because I think it's
all about relationships, right?
And I know that there are districts
that have multiple layers, you know,
where the person in charge of Ed
Services isn't gonna go walk, drive
over, or walk over to a school and,
and talk to the, to the teacher, just
'cause there's so many layers and,
and of, of responsibility in between.
So I think that's part of
it too, is that there is no,
no one could doubt motive.
Or, you know, commitment to the students.
You know, there, there our motive was
what we all believe to be our vision
for the best way to serve students.
And if there's disagreement about how
to get that, let's talk it through.
And if we end up and you don't, you
still don't agree with me that's okay.
We could, we could be agree, be agreeable
in our disagreement and then move forward.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And then and
I think that was just like the.
That's kind of the ethos of the school
district is that we didn't always agree.
There wasn't unanimity in
everything we were doing.
But we were a big, we were big on
building consensus and having distributed
leadership so that there's a lot of
decision makers and a lot of input.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: You know, I think
a common refrain from those at
the school site or the classroom
is like, you know, the district's
just making decisions without.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: You know, thinking about
what it feels like at the school site.
And, you know, my, my hope would be that
no one ever looked back and say, oh, you
know, Jay was just sitting in his office
making decisions about what we're doing.
You know, he came to my classroom, he
talked to me, he, and, you know, he,
you know, set up a meeting and we just
talked it out and, and now, you know,
I understand why he did what he did.
You know, I still don't like
it, but I understand it.
And I think that that kind of,
just professionalism and care
for hearing people out and for
everyone being participatory is a
big part of, I think, leadership.
And, and I think you'll find districts
that are considered to be, you
know, successful or high performing
or whatever the adjective matters.
You, you're gonna find that in
the, the leadership style of the
people who are making decisions.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): So
Jay Greenlinger: so.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): what now?
Jay Greenlinger: So, so after that
after Ed services you know, I felt
like the, you know, I've been following
this kind of straight line path, right?
Teacher, Dean, Principal,
Director, you know, Ed Services.
I had no desire to be a CBO like zero.
That is not, I, I don't
bless those people.
But I don't think I could go every day
and be excited about the business office.
I'm glad it's there and I'm
glad there's really smart
people doing all those things.
And we rely on them greatly.
But it wasn't, that wasn't
what I wanted to do.
So, you know, I said, okay, well, you
know, the only aspect of the school
district that I don't have much
experience in is human resources.
So I took a position as a Director of
Personnel and Pupil Services, so personnel
being hr, and then people services,
like student welfare, enrollment,
discipline, all all those things.
And the person who I was supposed to
serve under and learn from the assistant
superintendent took another role.
And so I kind of got thrown in to
running these, you know, heading
these two departments in personnel.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Wow.
Did
Jay Greenlinger: so became
Cate Tolnai (she/her): position?
Jay Greenlinger: I, yeah,
A few months later I became
the Assistant Superintendent.
Yeah, which was a whirlwind.
It was great, you know, very exciting.
But it was a whirlwind and it
was like, it was like two fire
hoses that I was drinking from.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: And then which was it?
I've always been a learner and I've
always learned in the roles I've been in.
But I've always had like a
substantial amount of what I
needed to know already, you know?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: and so, you
know, I'm filling in gaps.
This was I was learning major, you
know, aspects about labor relations
and negotiations and staffing,
you know, formulas and all these
things that I had to learn on the
fly which was very stimulating.
'Cause I enjoy learning.
So for three years worked in in that role.
I had a great director who took
over for my, my director position.
And, you know.
When you hire smart people and you
can hand them substantial projects or
initiatives or goals and know that they
are, they're, they're gonna grind it out.
They're gonna ask for help.
They're going to be a leader
that's like the best in the world.
And, and I've been really lucky in, in all
the roles I've had to have people working
for me who are smart and willing to
take risks and willing to try new things
and willing to be a, a great teammate.
And so that's part of the joy of
leadership is building other leaders.
And so in my Ed Services role, the person
who worked under me took over in my
position, and then, the person who worked
under me as my director in personnel
is now an assistant superintendent, of
personnel in a neighboring district.
So, building up leaders, recognizing
leadership potential, building up leaders
is a huge piece of, leadership in itself.
and you don't have to be an
assistant superintendent to do that.
You know, that happens in the classroom.
It happens on the school site every day.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): every day.
How did you get good at hiring people?
Jay Greenlinger: You know, I, one,
I, I feel like a skill I've had since
I was a, a kid is like being able
to read people and really get to, to
understand people quickly and kind of
see through to who people really are.
And and if I, if I
recognize that, you know.
That kind of magic piece to someone.
I want to give them
opportunity and let them shine.
Let them prove themselves and, and, and
then be able to say, Hey, listen, this
person deserves, you know, a chance
to be in this role or this person,
you know, needs a promotion that
look at this work that they're doing.
You know, I'm, I'm happy to be
someone to recognize greatness
in others and promote them.
I don't need, I don't need the
accolades and the limelight.
I'd rather I, I feel better giving it
to someone and watching someone else be,
you know lauded than, than the feeling
I get when, when I get recognized.
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
That's not that common
Jay Greenlinger: And that's, no, and it,
I, it's probably weird that like people,
you know, my wife thinks it's crazy,
you know, that I don't want attention.
Or, or, yeah.
And, and maybe it's just like
a, it's a discomfort with being.
I in front, you know I guess it's
like that imposter syndrome, you
know, that people talk a lot about.
But I do in, you know, I think leadership
is all about lifting up others and, and
putting them in a position where they can
grow themselves and, and find ways to.
Whether it's, whether it's economic
growth on, you know, for them or just,
you know, influence and leadership.
Seeing people grow is, is the closest
thing you get in administration to like,
you know, the feeling you get when one of
your students get something or, or grows.
That is, that it's wherever that is
in the mind or, and, and in the heart.
It's, it's the same place.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: and so seeking that.
Is is something that I've done just
as a leader in, in every position.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Well, so when
I, when I was getting my administrative
credential, I was clearing my credential.
I.
Was clearing it as a TOSA and
this was back in 2013, 2014.
And I somehow skated through and was
able to do that and I don't think the
system knew what to do with TOSAs, so we
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): to get through.
and the whole program really wasn't the
right fit for me for what I was doing.
And so the program director
actually took me under her wing
and she was my mentor coach during
that program, which was amazing.
She's an amazing human and
one of the books she exposed
me to was servant leadership.
And, and I don't know, are
you familiar with the book?
Jay Greenlinger: Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): mean, everything
you just said is servant leadership
and I felt like it was so formative
for me as a leader at that time to
go, yeah, this like, it really like I
shine when you shine, like we shine.
Like this is just it.
And that's been part of what's carried
me through all of the work I've done
with teacher leadership is like I, you
know, the moment you feel confident
with your students, the moment you
see the lights go off in their eyes.
Though, that's the moment that we
know we've done something right.
And so I'm wondering like, obviously
like you've, you've held the right
positions to be in all the right places.
Like everything you just said, I'm
like, this is textbook someone who's
ready to be the superintendent, you
know, who's ready to, to rock it out.
Like, what, what is happening now?
Jay Greenlinger: So, you know, in
terms of what I wanna do next and like
you pointed out, you know, at some
point I'd want to be a superintendent.
And, you know, I think it's a, I
think it's a, a great, I, I think so.
Yeah.
I think the job has changed.
Like
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: I started
in administration, it
was a very different job.
You know, 15 years ago it
was a very different job.
It was, you were leading the schools.
Now a superintendent is I, it is PR is
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Partnerships?
Jay Greenlinger: is HR, you know, there's
a lot more about board relations and
almost like protecting the board because
there, there's been a politicization of
local politics in general, but also local.
You know, school what's
going on in education.
And so I think that's
changed the job a lot.
There's a lot more the turnover
for superintendents has increased.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: So, you know,
I think the average tenure,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh,
Jay Greenlinger: I
Cate Tolnai (she/her): thought
it was like three years now.
Jay Greenlinger: think it's
under two at this point.
Yeah, it's under two.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): gosh.
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, like if you
looked across the, across the nation, so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): wow.
Jay Greenlinger: the American
Association of School Administrators
did a, did a longevity study and
yeah, I think across the country it's
two years and California is not it.
Not much better if it is better.
Which is a shame,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): It
Jay Greenlinger: right?
Because these are the people who are
supposed to be guiding and leading.
And I think about the
superintendents that I served under.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: And then in my, in
the topic of my dissertation was, was
superintendent leadership and their
relationship with, with principals.
So I, I spent a lot of time studying
superintendents three in particular
that I studied in my dissertation.
And then broadly, you know,
obviously, you know, leadership.
And I think about what I, when
I observed them and I'd watched
them and, and interviewed them,
this was in like 2012 ish.
The, the job of a superintendent
right now is 50% of it is different.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): That's incredible.
Jay Greenlinger: which yeah, that's,
I mean, that's my, that's my estimate.
You know, that's not a scientific
number, but it, it seems like half the
job is different than what it was then.
And so where are we going with that?
So,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Well,
Jay Greenlinger: know,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): to
Jay Greenlinger: I think, yeah, I think,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): you?
And you're like,
Jay Greenlinger: yeah.
And, and.
Yeah.
And, and, and you know, the thing about a
superintendent too is, you know, it's like
it's a 24 7 365 job and that's whether
or not that's right, it's what it is.
And I've got four kids in high school.
You know, I'm lucky to have a lot of
teenagers in my home and, you know,
these are formative years for them
and the, the amount of time I get to
spend with them is limited, right?
'cause they're probably gonna go off and
do great things in just a few years here.
And then they're busy people as well.
You know, they, they play sports.
They, they're in
performances, they have jobs.
They do all these things.
And so, you know, the, the limited time I
have with them I need to spend with them,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: know, and not be,
you know, calling them from the office
and saying, Hey, how was your game?
Or, you know.
How was the show?
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: You know?
So being being present is an important
thing, and that, and that's kind
of where I am right now in terms
of like evaluating what, what's
the important stuff right now.
And, you know, everyone always
says family's number one.
But it's, it, I think it also has
to show in, in where you are and
where you know, when you're present.
And so, you know, for
me it's recalibrating.
Where, you know, where I want to be and,
and what I wanna be doing day to day.
And then finding that role where I'm,
you know, impacting student learning
and, and student outcomes and student
experiences while also being able
to be impactful in my kids' lives
to the degree that I'm happy with.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah,
it's a, it's a balancing act and,
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and I totally
understand the, the weariness of
stepping into a position like that
or even considering that when you.
Are so dialed into your family
and what's needed, and also what's
needed of that position because
you know that position and you've
studied that position and you've been
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): like it.
So, so how do you.
How do you, how do you, like,
what are, what's your purpose now?
What, what is it that you see?
Like putting, putting the position
aside, like knowing that the position
is going to be aligned to the purpose.
You need to kind of be focused,
you need to be able to identify
and focus on the purpose.
So what is, what is it that you see
as being your purpose right now?
Besides
Jay Greenlinger: So I think
the, the, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think for, you know, work-wise or you
know, what, you know, between the hours
of eight and five you know, I, I think
really being in a place where I can,
where you can meaningfully impact what
students learn and how they learn it,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: how teachers
teach and what, what they
have as support for, for that.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Okay.
Jay Greenlinger: And so being, being
more involved in, in the teaching
and learning side you know, whether
it's specific, you know, to literacy
or you know, environmental education
has always been a place where I found
the most you know, potential impact,
you know, like saving the world.
Quite literally.
I think, you know,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Jay Greenlinger: We say that
jokingly, you know, this lesson
could, could save the world.
Right.
You, you might teach, you might teach
the right child at the right time, the
right thing that will put them on a
path to, you know, solving, solving a,
a climate based problem that otherwise
would, would lead to disastrous outcomes,
which is a whole other set of podcasts.
But nonetheless, it's true, right?
If we, if we don't, if we don't, if we
don't make corrections you know, the fires
we experience, you know, you're, you're.
Not too far from us.
You know, you experience the brush
fires, they'll get more intense and
the, the storms get more intense
and everything gets more intense.
And that's not a political stance,
that's just the scientific stance.
And what, what, what, regardless,
and, and I've learned this too, is
that you know, the, and this goes
back to like the politicization of
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: of the things we teach.
Whatever you can, you can d isagree
on the cause of climate change,
but you can't disagree with the
out, with the, the outcome, right?
And so if we can influence the
outcome we need, we should.
So if you think it's all natural
and has nothing to do with, with
human creation, then that's fine.
I disagree and so does the science,
but you can't disagree that more
intense heat is bad for humans and
for animals and for plants and, and
therefore the, you know, the earth.
So,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: know,
let's, let's agree on that.
We, we might, whether or not you
agree that we're the cause, we have
to agree that we're the solution.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh, I love that.
Wait, I'm writing that down.
Jay Greenlinger: Okay?
Cate Tolnai (she/her):
again, whether or not
Jay Greenlinger: Whether or not you
agree that we're the cause, you have
to agree that we're the solution.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh
my god, I love that so much.
Oh, it's so hopeful.
It's so empowering.
And I think it goes beyond.
Honestly, it goes beyond environmental ed.
I think it starts with environmental
ed, but this sentiment, like
that we are the solution.
I mean, why else are you in education?
It's not the money, it's not the time
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): It's, you know,
it's, it's not the resources, it's, it's
'cause you care and you have that purpose.
And honestly, I've seen
so many of education.
Now I'm working in higher ed and
I'm working with teacher candidates.
I'm actually helping them
get their credential now.
And I, I have been blown away by
just the farther and farther leaders
get from the classroom, the more
disconnected and the more, less,
less aware of purpose they are.
I sort of observed and.
aren't.
You aren't.
And so what is your secret sauce?
How do you stay so connected?
Jay Greenlinger: You know, whatever
role it, it's been, I've had I've
always tried to build relationships with
whoever, you know, whoever it is, right?
And so substantially it's teachers, right?
And, and I don't take personally when a
teacher doesn't like something that we're
doing, or if a teacher disagrees with
a direction we're going or if they're
really frustrated with whatever it is.
Like, I, I don't, I
don't take it personally.
'cause I think, you know, even if I did
cause it, if I take it personally, then
you know you're gonna react emotionally
instead of like, okay, well like
what, what, what's the solution here?
You know, if, if you were
me, what would you do?
And and that, and that's kind of
something I've always said to, to
teachers when, when I was a principal or
a director or assistant superintendent,
okay, well if you were in my position,
what, how would you solve this?
What would you do?
And, and sometimes it's, it's, you
know, it's a complicated problem
and they say, I have no clue.
Or they might say, well, I
probably do what you did.
I just don't like it.
Right.
And then it, it, it you know, I think,
but humanizing a ll of this work is super
important because we're in a humanistic
industry, right from the kids we serve
to the, obviously, you know as one of my
mentors, Leslie Heilbron is famous for
saying, you know, teachers are people too,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: Meaning they have
feelings or they make mistakes, or
they, you know, they deserve you
know, the benefit of the doubt.
And, and so I think that's part of it.
And I, again, you know, I've
always talked about working
in right size school districts
Cate Tolnai (she/her): love that
Jay Greenlinger: that, you know, I've
never worked in a district where I
couldn't just drive for like six minutes
and reach every school in the district.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Right.
Jay Greenlinger: 'cause I think, I
think what's hard, and, and I see this,
I live with a teacher who works in a
bigger district 30 something schools.
It, it's, you know, it's a big district
and, and there isn't that connection
with the leadership and it has nothing
to do with the quality of the leadership.
I know all the people in the district
office there, and they're all like
super smart, caring people who
I, who I know are great people.
Some of 'em I've worked with in the past.
So it has nothing to do with like the
quality of the humans, it just has to
do with the size of the organization.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): and
Jay Greenlinger: how easy or not it is to
communicate and for that communication to
be two ways and for it to be authentic.
So I think that's a big piece of for
me, staying grounded is just those
relationships and those conversations
and those disagreements and, you know,
I'll never walk away just like at home,
I'll never walk away from a conversation.
You know, disagreeing, you
know, in, in a disagreement.
Let's settle it, let's
get to the end of it.
And,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: again, agreeing to
disagree is sometimes what we have to do.
But humanizing the other side and,
and making sure that the other side
knows that I'm a human too, right?
Like, I go home to my kids
and I go home and, you know.
I said I gotta go home and pick
up dog poop at the end of the day.
Like, you know, you know, so that
doesn't humanize hu you know,
I'm no better than anyone else.
And
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Oh my
Jay Greenlinger: I'll, you know,
Cate Tolnai (she/her): it.
Jay Greenlinger: you know, so like,
and I think about, okay, go ahead.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): no, no, no, no.
You think
Jay Greenlinger: Oh, I was gonna
say, you know, when I was a, when
I was a principal, I had let's see.
When I was a principal,
my, we had two babies.
Under a year.
And then a year later, my wife
got pregnant again and with twins.
So we had, at one point we
had four kids under three.
And so like, I would bring that up all the
time with teachers or upset parents, like,
just to remind them that like, listen, at
the end of the day, I'm gonna be changing
like probably 12 diapers by, by the time
I go to bed, so I'm not better than you.
Like.
You know, don't, don't kind of
bringing myself down in, in a way,
not in a self-deprecating way, but
just like a, Hey, I'm a person too.
And I think that's really important
because we, again, getting back to like
the politicization of, of education and
all the things we're doing, it's, it's
easy to forget that everyone who works
at a school or a district office or what,
what have you ever, they're all people.
And they all, you know, deserve
to be treated in that way.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah, well you said
this earlier and it's, it's a sentiment
that will probably end up being the
title of this episode, which is, your
commitment to creating a Climate of Care.
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Like c Yeah.
Is that, did I say
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): How
Jay Greenlinger: Mm-hmm.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): And
Jay Greenlinger: Climate of care.
Yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): so for educators
that might not be feeling like they're
in that climate, what, what advice
do you have for them to either seek
it or create it or look for it?
Anything?
Jay Greenlinger: Yeah, so I think
the hardest thing in, and I've been,
I've been lucky, really lucky in that
I've worked in places that you would
characterize as having a climate of care.
And so I've never had the sentiment.
Ugh, though they just don't get it.
They don't understand how hard it is.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): right.
Jay Greenlinger: I, yeah.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: The over there
at the district office, right.
Like I never had, I never felt that.
And so I, I know I recognize that
as a privilege that not everyone has
had in their professional career.
But I've worked, you know, with a lot
of districts, I've worked with a lot of
people through all these organizations
like CUE and AXA and all these other
organizations where you, where you
hear about how people experience their
professional lives and the, the best
way to, I think, receive that climate of
care is to create that climate of care.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: I think every
teacher, you know, seeks to create a
climate of care in their classroom.
I hope they do.
I expect they do.
Whether they're working in my school
district or my kids, my own children's
teacher, I, my expectation is that they
are seeking to create a climate of care.
Because all these families say, here,
take my child, take the most important
thing care for them, teach them.
Meet their needs.
My expectation is that you're
doing that in a climate of care.
And then we also need you know, we
have to extend that to our colleagues.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yep.
Jay Greenlinger: You know, if
you're a teacher in your grade
level, create, you know, create that
climate of care for the three or
four teachers on your grade level.
And
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Hmm.
Jay Greenlinger: the, the best way
to, to get it is to help create it.
And you know, taking that team approach,
you know, where I think it gets hard.
Is for positions that are some,
like a lot of positions in
education are islands, right?
Like the elementary school principal is
an island that's, that job is an island.
Unless you have the benefit of an AP
or like a full-time counselor, you're,
it's hard to find that climate of care
on a daily basis unless you create it.
Right.
And so
Cate Tolnai (she/her): Yeah.
Jay Greenlinger: your office,
is your school office a a place
where there's a climate of care?
Because when parents walk in, if they
feel that it's a place of care, they're,
you know, they're going to hopefully, not
universally, but hopefully treat everyone
with care even if they're agitated or
upset with something that happened.
And so for classroom teachers for
anyone really working in education
the best way to to receive that
climate of care is to create it.
And you can control what you can
control and within your classroom.
Even if you feel like you don't
receive a climate of care from
your administrator or the district,
you can create it in
your own little world.
And that's where it starts.
and then hopefully it spreads, it
leads to other things at school
where it spreads a little bit.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): I love that.
I can't think of a better
way to, to wrap this episode.
It's so empowering.
It's so positive, it's hopeful.
It's exactly what, it's exactly the
warm hug that I will, I hope to give
to these educators that really need it.
So thank you Jay, so much for your
time and just sharing your journey.
I think it's, it's wonderful.
And talk about humanizing to hear
this story of leadership that so
often educators don't know they
don't know all the steps to take and
that have been taken or not taken.
So thank you so much.
Jay Greenlinger: Well, thank
you for the opportunity to
talk and you have a great day.
Cate Tolnai (she/her): All right.