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Pinaki Kathiari & Chris Lee challenge traditional best practices in the workplace
Bree Bartos (00:00)
Welcome back to this week's episode of Between the Seasons. I'm so sorry that we left you on a cliffhanger last week, but let's go ahead and jump right back into the conversation where I just told Pinaki and Chris that I was OP in our previous Reddit story about my best friend going to my boss and trying to steal my job. Let's dive back in.
Chris Lee (00:22)
kidding.
Pinaki Kathiari (00:22)
You are the OP?
Bree Bartos (00:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (00:24)
my God. ⁓ What a surprise. So what do you... So holy crap. So wait a minute. We have a very interesting opportunity here now ⁓ because I'm always wondering what if like an OP of one of these Reddit Reads ever listens to this stuff, what would they think? So here we are. You are the OP. ⁓ Give us feedback real quick. Because yeah.
Chris Lee (00:25)
Wow, what a twist. That is a great follow-up.
Bree Bartos (00:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, ⁓
Chris Lee (00:51)
Just before
you jump into it, Bree, I just
to say I thank my lucky stars, Pinaki, that you and I didn't talk dramatic smack about the OP. ⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (01:00)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (01:01)
Well,
so we were, I was, this was, let me think. We were probably like 22, 21. Like we were freshly, we were fresh out of college. And Chris I know you said like, well, maybe in Amy's head, you guys were more coworkers than best friends. That wasn't the case.
were really close friends and I would have considered us friends more than coworkers. Like whenever she would have like bad days, she would just like come over and spend the night like at 10 p.m. like she'd come over and spend the night. Like she would meet me after therapy and we'd go get ice cream together and like debrief. Like we spent.
all of our time together. would go to hockey games together. My ⁓ partner at the time, worked evenings and I worked a typical nine to five. So her and I hung out in the evenings. ⁓ And like I said in the post, she also compared us on a professional level a lot and on a personal level a lot. Like when I started dating again after I became single and she was dating, like she would compare my success versus hers.
And she made me feel really guilty a lot about being good at things because if I was good at things, she couldn't be good at things.
Pinaki Kathiari (02:22)
If you're,
yeah, so your achievements became her depression in a way. then so like there's a dynamic, so she's drawing you down throughout the whole thing, whatnot.
Bree Bartos (02:30)
Yes!
Yes. And
Chris Lee (02:37)
You know,
Bree Bartos (02:39)
I do, go ahead, Chris.
Chris Lee (02:41)
well, I just gonna say, I had this conversation with my daughter a few weeks ago. We were talking about one of her friends.
And we had this really interesting conversation about ⁓ just friendships in general or relationships, especially personal relationships where you love someone or you really like someone or enjoy someone because you have a lot in common, you have a lot of fun together or you're attracted to them. And one of the things that ⁓ we started talking about was this idea of ⁓ recognizing and understanding which of your relationships give you energy.
Bree Bartos (03:18)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (03:19)
and which of your relationships sap energy. And it's a very subtle thing. And the sense that I get from quote unquote Amy is that you enjoyed spending time with her, you had a lot in common, ⁓ and you enjoyed each other's company. But because of this constant comparison, just one upmanship and whatnot, I'm sure for you, Bree at times it was exhausting.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:24)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (03:48)
and sapped a lot of energy. those are the hardest relationships to walk away from because you also get so much out of it. you definitely, it is ⁓ taxing ⁓ for you personally in a way that you might not have recognized.
Bree Bartos (03:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (04:03)
So what did you think when I was talking about confronting?
Bree Bartos (04:09)
So when I was like fresh out of college, young 20 year old, I definitely was not going to confront anyone about anything. ⁓ You know, learning how to communicate was something that like I spent a lot of time in therapy on because like it wasn't something I grew up good at and I knew that in my young 20s. And so actually like in tandem with like all of this stuff with Morgan going on, I was in therapy for like learning how to communicate. ⁓ And I tried.
But it actually, got really bad in the friendship to where she was becoming really clingy, a little stalker-ish-esque. It got to the point where her mental health depended on her being with me at all times. And so it was incredibly draining. Yeah. Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (04:48)
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah, it developed like some kind of coded like a dependency or anxious.
What do call it? Oh, there's a word for it. Yeah, like, yep, exactly. Anxious, separation, anxiety and whatnot.
Bree Bartos (05:02)
Separation anxiety? Yeah.
And so
I actually did confront her and I told her, hey, like it's a little too much. Like I'm feeling like, you know, you're being a little clingy. I told her like all of the things and she doubled down and it got worse. ⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (05:14)
Hmm.
Yeah.
So one interesting thing, I understand this because like, you know, me and my like 20s is different than me and my like getting to, we're not going to talk about it. ⁓ like, I've learned over the years and probably more recently that even like confronting, there's a subtle way to do it because when you confront in a way that could
Bree Bartos (05:30)
Hahaha
Pinaki Kathiari (05:47)
slightly feel accusational, it becomes a problem. And a lot of my confronting has been now asking questions to understand over trying to explain how I'm feeling about this right now. you know, hey, Amy, have you ever had the feeling that like, if I do good, like it makes you depressed or makes you look bad? Do you think that? I hope you don't. That's why I'm asking.
Bree Bartos (05:50)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (06:15)
So it's just more like I'm trying to reach out to learn about what's going on rather than confronting to unload what I feel right now to get your response because doing that latter option would get a defensive response in a way. That's just on confronting, not on the whole totality of the relationship. I think it's interesting.
Bree Bartos (06:33)
Yeah.
So this was really fun for me to share. ⁓ But I do, did, there was a point for me wanting to share this. ⁓ And it is that like this interaction has embedded like such imposter syndrome in me. Because I think like, because again, we were friends, like we met at work, but we were the best of friends. So.
to have my best friend take my insecurities that I shared with her about like, yeah, I don't feel like sometimes like I have all the skills I should for this role. And like, I feel like I'm a little behind sometimes to take those to my boss and be like, hey, ⁓ I'm more qualified for Bree's job than she is. She didn't even go to school for this. Whereas I did. She knows she's not qualified for it. I think I should be. Like, how do you move beyond those crummy feelings?
Pinaki Kathiari (07:05)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Lee (07:29)
think the way I think about
it, Bri, is like, I don't think she was ever truly your friend the way you thought, because I think you were ⁓ very useful for her to make her feel better about herself. And obviously she also used you to get ahead ⁓ at the company. And ⁓ and I would say as well, think people like this, I think, Pinaki, you probably know people like this as well in your own life,
Bree Bartos (07:36)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (07:59)
I
think some people aren't even aware.
that that's what they're actually doing. I think Amy probably believed that you were her friend, but didn't recognize when she's using those that are close to her for her own personal gain or to uplift herself. you know, this is a conversation I feel like we could have for, like we could go on forever on this because it's a great, great conversation, but it really showcases the fact that in a professional setting, exactly like you said, Pinaki why does it feel
Pinaki Kathiari (08:02)
Mm-hmm. I was thinking the same thing.
Bree Bartos (08:11)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:22)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (08:32)
surround the human at work. We're still at the end of the day until the until AI takes over all our jobs. ⁓ We're still humans doing roles, working with each other, managing the incredible complex relationships that come with it, the pride, the envy, the, you know, friendships, all these different things. And I think it's one of the most important parts of the work experience. But it also leads to a problematic dynamic.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:57)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (09:02)
just like what you talked about,
Pinaki Kathiari (09:02)
Yeah.
Yeah, let me put it by adding a few points for you, Bree and everyone who might be feeling the same thing, especially in a creative role. You look at, kind of ⁓ think about these crummy emotions that you feel like imposter syndrome or like, ⁓ I don't know, this fear of, I don't know how this design or thing that I'm thinking is gonna come out. I think in a creative profession, one of the things that we wanna try to do is to be
comfortable with that because that is part of the creative process. To feel some of this crummy stuff is to help you get to the really, really great stuff. Right? And so it can be fuel. And like I said, for her, she wasn't doing it to you, but more for her. And similarly, you weren't trying to make her look bad while doing really good work. You were doing it for you. Yeah, exactly. You were doing what you were
Bree Bartos (09:38)
Mm-hmm.
I was just doing my job.
Pinaki Kathiari (10:00)
is doing, right? And so, and that kind of dynamic gets wild, especially when there's emotion at work, because you could do that. And I think emotion should be at work. I think powerful things could come out of like friendships and things like that. that emotion
really kind of create like a quick pain that could like sever a relationship really fast because of that emotion right because I think one of the lines that is sticking my head from the famous anime Fist of the North Star is no one could love more ardently and passionately than a madman right so love makes us go a little crazy ⁓ and not think exactly straight so and at the same time love can empower us to do really great things so love has this kind of like
to it and this negativeness thing to it and if we could harness both sides of that really well it could really turn into a superpower. ⁓ don't beat yourself up.
Chris Lee (10:55)
Pinaki that's the most romantic
thing I've ever heard you say. I felt like Celine Dion, like just pumping my, it's the power of love.
Pinaki Kathiari (10:58)
Hahahaha
Bree Bartos (10:59)
That was beautiful.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:03)
Right? mean,
mean, Celine Dion, like, think about it, right? Like how much like ⁓ emotion goes into the work to create something like that that's going to create an emotional alteration for everyone listening. Right? There's something, there's a, things come from deep pains or deep loves and deep joys and things like that. And if we could draw from that, it could be really powerful.
Chris Lee (11:24)
And ultimately, you know,
I feel like that's what organizations should be seeking more than they currently do, which is.
not just seeking competence, but seeking competence that comes from a place of passion, right? Where you honestly do love what you're doing. You love interacting with clients. You love having conversations about it. I think especially for young people, it's hard to think in that way because you're just trying to make it and you fake it until you make it. You're just trying to climb that ladder. You're trying to impress your manager. And sometimes, you know, this happens probably to most of us, you just lose sight
Pinaki Kathiari (11:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (12:03)
of what gave you joy in the first place and what gets you higher up on Maslow's hierarchy.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:09)
Yeah. And last bit on the competition piece, I'm very careful of competition at work, especially with coworkers between each other. Right. I think about it more like a football team where we're part of one team against another team or the world, rather than I'm pitting you two against each other to see who comes up on top and things like that. Which is to be honest, sometimes difficult for some people who are used to a very competitive environment. However, I don't want people to compete
Bree Bartos (12:13)
you
Chris Lee (12:15)
Love that.
Bree Bartos (12:18)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (12:19)
Brilliant.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:39)
against each other. I want people to ⁓ collaborate with one another.
Chris Lee (12:45)
especially like people
who grew up in homes where the parents would stoke, like for example sibling rivalry for example, which without recognizing what that actually does, right?
Pinaki Kathiari (12:51)
Mm-hmm. yeah.
Bree Bartos (12:55)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:57)
They're constantly being compared to someone else's, like, living in a little bit of a torture in that way. Well, yeah. So, yes, let's alleviate that. Let's breathe that out because you're amazing at what you do, your work rocks and everything like that. And somehow or another, this person, this Amy, might have just made you stronger.
Bree Bartos (13:03)
Yeah, yeah, it's not fun.
Chris Lee (13:03)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (13:22)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would say so. I'm really glad I shared this story with you guys today. That is why I kind of came in with no other plan, because I knew this one would be a doozy and I knew we would talk about it for a while. We're really bad at these 15 minute episodes. But thank you guys for, you know, sharing your insight and your advice, because like when this happened to me, like I didn't feel like I had anywhere to go. I mean,
Chris Lee (13:37)
You
Bree Bartos (13:52)
She went to my manager to talk bad about me and like then my manager just told me and nothing happened after that. and so yeah, and I, and you know, I'm not from Pittsburgh. I don't have family in Pittsburgh. Like this was my only friend that I had in the city. And so like it was a really, really hard time for me.
Pinaki Kathiari (13:59)
Hmm, your manager just told you, Jesus, sorry.
Hmm, yeah.
Bree Bartos (14:18)
but by the grace of COVID, our building closed and we got sent home with our computers and we went through a merger, got put in different departments and I never talked to her again. I just ghosted. Because like at that point I felt scared and like it was getting really intense, but I go ahead. I just, know that, know, Pinaki, we had a great annual review recently and I mentioned that I doubt myself and you were like, what?
Pinaki Kathiari (14:28)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's wild, huh? I'm sorry.
Bree Bartos (14:46)
So that's why I wanted to share this story is because like I I truly feel like a lot of my self-doubt stems from like this whole like toxic experience. Yeah
Chris Lee (14:46)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (14:48)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Lee (14:55)
that experience.
Yeah, you know what?
Pinaki Kathiari (14:58)
And I think in that same review, I told you that, well, I do too. You know, because it's human.
Bree Bartos (15:02)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (15:03)
right.
you you're thinking, I really thank you for ⁓ sharing such a personal and intimate story and experience and just, you know, being willing to be vulnerable because I think a lot of us, ⁓ you know, would just bury that in the closet and just not ⁓ let it come out. I think ⁓ I agree with Pinaki I think these kinds of experiences, whether we...
understand it or not, do inform how we grow and how we mature and how we can become stronger. So it's not a pleasant experience, of course, but I think it's just an important one because you might approach future relationships with at least a little bit of, you know, not just opening wide open and understanding that I just kind of just keep protective a little bit of myself as well.
Bree Bartos (15:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I stopped
Pinaki Kathiari (16:01)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (16:02)
making friends with coworkers.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:03)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Lee (16:04)
I don't know about that, but yeah, just understanding that
there's still that dynamic at the end of the day, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Bree Bartos (16:10)
That's what happened. But.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:10)
Yeah, yeah, it's
a, we learn from our things and you know, we kind of keep playing and testing with the waters because everyone is different, every situation is different, whatnot. So this was a great episode. This was so wild. ⁓ You know, this was so, ⁓ yeah.
Bree Bartos (16:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Lee (16:27)
This was a gift, Brie. It was a gift.
Bree Bartos (16:29)
really enjoyed this. I
am glad you guys did too. It might happen again in the future because I have a lot of stories.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:36)
Yeah, what a wild twist to this one. thank you. I'll close out with saying thank you, Bree, for ⁓ this wild quote unquote Reddit story or quote unquote Bree story. Chris, thank you for your insights and everybody, thank you for tuning in to ⁓ Between the Seasons, the mini series from Waters that feels so wrong to be human at work. I thank you all for joining in. Join us again next week and, you know, do that subscribe thing and like thing and all that good stuff that you all do.
Bree Bartos (16:49)
You
Pinaki Kathiari (17:04)
Let us know what you think. We'll see you all next week.
Chris Lee (17:06)
Thanks everybody.