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Demystifying The Indie Film Journey
Were like, why why won't you let us play your movies? And, like, yeah, you just won't do well with them. Like, we just don't wanna do it. You're not gonna do well enough. And we said, what's the what's the number that you that we have to hit?
Brandon:And they gave us this number, and it was, like, insultingly low. And and then they said, we'll double it. And they were like, well, we'll give you a shot. And we just about tripled the number
Brandon:on the weekend.
Daren:This is truly independent, a show that demystifies the indie film journey by documenting the process of releasing independent films in theaters. Each week, Garrett Batte and I, Darren Smith, will update you on our journey, bringing guests to share their insights into the process and answer your questions. Today on the podcast, we talk with Brandon Lott, an independent theater owner up in Idaho, and we answer the listener question about how to use short films strategically in your career as a filmmaker. You're gonna like this one. It's episode 20 of Truly Independent.
Garrett:Welcome. Thanks for joining us this week. I am thrilled, with, our guest this week, and and we are excited to get started. Daren, how are you doing?
Daren:Oh, I'm great, man. What a couple of weeks that we've had, and I'm really excited for the conversation today. You set up an amazing guest, so I'm just stoked to be here.
Garrett:We have a lot to catch up on as far as, Faith of Angels is going, and Carpenter is just around the corner, and we're gonna get to that. But for now, we want to bring in our guest, Brandon Lott. So, Brandon, just start us off. Tell us a little bit about what you do, kinda what's your day to day. And then our podcast, you know, we're talking to independent filmmakers and what it is to put independent films in theaters, and which is why we're just gonna we're gonna grill you.
Brandon:Perfect. So my dad, he actually started as a projectionist at Mann Theaters when he was 16. And, just loved the theater industry, loved the film industry, and, you know, all the different ins and outs of 35 millimeter projectors, and, took a couple years off to serve a a mission for for our church. And then when he got home, he stepped kind of into a management role. Fast forward several years, I was 1.
Brandon:And mom and dad bought the center in Idaho Falls. Back then it was just a single screen, built in the mid teens. Used to be a vaudeville theater when sound came out, you know, in the late twenties, they turned it into a movie theater. And it's just just a fun, fun location. Since then, we've twinned it.
Brandon:The balcony is its own theater now. And then in 2000, they bought the Paramount, which back then was a triplex. And that's kind of when I started to and I just I loved the theater. I I grew up going with dad. Mom, dad worked on the weekends, selling tickets, popcorn, all that stuff.
Brandon:And I kinda grew up on a stool at the center. Are you
Garrett:just hanging up hanging out in the projection booth? Just watching Yeah. I
Brandon:worked Yeah. And then when I was about 6, I dad taught me how to run the register and count change back. And so from, like, 6 to, like, 10, I stood on a stool and sold tickets on the weekends. And some people thought it was fun, and we had a couple that were like, hey, don't you know about child labor laws? But but, I just I just grew up really loving and having a passion for the theater industry.
Brandon:In high school, I kinda stepped into a little bit of a management role, kinda just starting to learn more and do more and be more involved. Took a couple years to serve a mission for for my church. And then after that, I stepped full time into management. Since then, we have, bought a 7plex in Blackfoot, Idaho. It was an old car dealership.
Brandon:And so dad's got his contractor's license. We general ed it and did most of the work ourselves. So we kinda took a step away from running theaters, and we built the theater. Wow. And then I stepped in and managed that full time, kinda got it rolling, hired all the staff, trained everybody, kind of that was kinda my full time thing for a couple years.
Brandon:And then I kinda started overseeing the 3 locations. And then during the pandemic, we, the family, we really went boots on the ground and overseeing everything. And then since then, I've I've really just overseen everything. And, you know, I've got a manager in Idaho Falls and a manager in Blackfoot, and I just check-in with them every day, and we just kinda take care of everything. I take care of all the bookings.
Brandon:I do all the scheduling. So both movie times, film scheduling, and our our employee scheduling. And that's kind of it's it's I I hang out in the office behind the scenes, and then on the weekends, I go down and sell tickets. And so it's kinda fun. Wow.
Garrett:It it's such a smoothly run operation there. And just I was up there last weekend, for Faith of Angels, and, Brandon gave us some, screen. And on our on the night that I was there, he had, it was what the the the movie screened to double attendance as the next, you know, next, movie in the in the theater, which is great. Yeah. You've you've built a community of of fans there, and I think you, you know, you you, it it was fun to see.
Garrett:It occurred to me while we were there that as much as an independent filmmaker, I am, you are an independent theater operator. Right? There's your there's your big Hollywood chains or whatever. There's your Cinemarks and AMC's and Regals, and then there's this abundance of community or I don't know. What what what do you call I mean, just independently run theater chains.
Brandon:Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, it is interesting because over the years, you know, especially when we just had the when we had the Paramount and the center, we were a discount house. And so we would play stuff off the break. And and
Garrett:What do
Brandon:you mean? It just seemed like
Garrett:for
Brandon:So the the film opens, and then, like, your big chains, your first run theaters play it.
Garrett:Yeah.
Brandon:They play it until they're done with it. And then we kinda get the table scraps and the leftovers. And, I don't know. It just it wasn't as fun for us. I mean, it was it was fun.
Brandon:It was enjoyable. We loved the movie thing. But, we just felt like there was there was more. Like, we were missing out on something. And, especially as I, you know, got home from my mission and kind of started to become more involved in the management side of it, I'd see all these big opening weekends, and I'm like, I just I just want a piece of the pie here.
Brandon:Like like
Garrett:Yeah.
Brandon:We're we're doing okay, but we could kind of see the trend that that playing films after it'd been out 8 weeks or 6 weeks was kind of going away. You know? Yeah.
Garrett:Especially with streaming.
Brandon:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Streaming was starting to roll in. I mean, it was we could kind of just see the trend.
Brandon:And so we went first run at the center, meaning we play movies as they open. And, you know, it's just 2 screens. We were very, very selective of what we brought in. But there was kind of this battle with some of the film companies. They're like, we we don't know.
Brandon:Like, we're pretty happy doing what we're doing. We don't really know if we wanna add more. And and so You
Garrett:okay. So wait. So let me let me understand. So you were first run, but the film company the distributors weren't necessarily knocking on your door saying, hey. Play our movies.
Brandon:Yeah. Yeah. So we we made this change. We went first run. We had to jump through some hoops to be able to do so, to be able to kinda meet their qualifications.
Brandon:There was Like,
Garrett:all the, like, projector wise and sound wise or seating or
Brandon:Yeah. There was some, like, some sound requirements. Our price points had to be a little bit higher than what they were. Just different things like that. Kind of yeah.
Brandon:Just quality.
Garrett:Okay.
Brandon:And so we we did all those things. We raised our pricing at the center. I mean, still we're we're $5 for a matinee, $7 for an adult in the evening. So I'm still it's very affordable for a movie as it opens. Yeah.
Garrett:Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. 3. That they let you do
Brandon:that. Yeah. We were kinda surprised
Garrett:That's great.
Brandon:That they they let us. We had 3 film companies right out the gate. They were like, no. We're not we're not supporting you. And we had a couple that were like, yeah.
Brandon:We don't we don't have a problem with this. Let's go ahead and do it. And we just exploded. I mean, we were just turning people away every weekend. I mean, we were half the price of our competitor.
Brandon:And so very community oriented, very family oriented. We just dominated with the the family films and, you know, like the the date night stuff. The young couples, young families that would that would come to. And then as the other film companies started to see our numbers, considering what we are, the other 2 of the 3 were like, okay, we'll give you a shot. The 3rd film company, it took us about 6 years before they finally gave us a shot with something.
Brandon:And it was funny because when they gave us a shot, they said we we were like, why why won't you let us play your movies? And like, yeah, you just won't do well with them. Like, we just don't wanna do it. You're not gonna do well enough. And we said, what's the what's the number that you that we have to hit?
Brandon:And they gave us this number, and it was, like, insultingly low. And then they said, we'll double it. And they were, like, well, we'll give you a shot. And we just about tripled the number.
Garrett:Oh my
Brandon:goodness. And it was it was crazy. I mean, like, heaven involved. It was the perfect storm. It was a family movie.
Brandon:It was a 3 day weekend, and it ended up raining Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. So it was just, like, the perfect storm for a a well well performing film. And, Monday or Tuesday, because of the holiday, we call this film company. And we're like, hey. Like, what do you think?
Brandon:And they're like, well, you did a lot better than we thought you would.
Garrett:What a story. And congratulations. And it's understandable to see why because it is very nice very nice, you know, you've got your laser projection and your nice seats and it's very nice, independent theater. You're talking about working with film companies trying to get product, you know, and it sounds like that's worked out. Yeah.
Garrett:How much input do they have as far as, you know, what they're offering or are what what is the big what's the issue there? Is it you want them to get product or they want to control how many screens it's on or
Brandon:Yeah. I I mean, a little bit of both. Like a big film will open, and they'll they'll ask for us to commit to 2 screens. You know? And and, there there's been a lot of times, especially at the Paramount, it's a 4 plex.
Brandon:And so if somebody comes in and says, we want you to give us 2 screens, and I got 4 screens total there.
Garrett:Yeah.
Brandon:I just say, I I give you one, but I there's no way I can give you 2.
Garrett:With every with every film, is it a little bit of back and forth and negotiating?
Brandon:Or No. I mean, it's it's usually the big ones. Okay. The big films that they're kind of expecting to be big, they'll they'll ask. And and it's interesting because there's not really a conversation.
Brandon:You know, back in the day, it was all over the phone. Booking movies on a Monday was like an all day event. And and because you're calling each film company, and there was this conversation, and, you know, you you'd end up talking more about life than you did about the movie. And and it was just kind of this all day thing. Now nobody wants to talk on the phone.
Brandon:Everybody wants to just send an email. And I and, like, I get it. It's fast, but the relationship aspect of it is nonexistent now with the film companies because they've I I don't know if they've, dropped their staff. And so they're overseeing a larger territory, larger footprint. And so they they've got more to do.
Brandon:And so, there's a couple film companies that if they've got something specific going on, then they'll make an effort to call. And the one of the gals that they they do this pretty consistently. Like, generally, when we open a film, they ask a 2 week commitment. This film company, there's been multiple times, especially in the summer when they've got big stuff, you know, the tentpole, films, they'll ask a 3 week commitment.
Garrett:Okay.
Brandon:And so they'll make a phone call. And, hey. We're we're doing things a little bit differently with this one, and they'll kinda communicate that. And, I've asked her, you know, are you calling everybody? And she's like, yeah.
Brandon:It'll take me probably 3 or 4 days to get through my list of people that I work with just to have this conversation with every single one of them. Yeah. And so yeah. I mean, I think they're busy. But, I think the biggest thing for us, the biggest struggle, if you will, I since the pandemic, I don't see a struggle to get product anymore.
Garrett:Okay.
Brandon:I think everybody's, you know, and especially now that we've been 1st run playing movies as they open, and we've developed this relationship. You know, we we always we always joke within our family that the first thing we do is we we pay our tithing. The second thing we do is pay the film companies. Like, we we pay who feeds us. Right?
Brandon:Yeah.
Garrett:Yeah. Yeah.
Brandon:And, and I think the film companies, they recognize that, you know, we I don't ever wanna be somebody they call for money. Yeah. I want them I wanna be their their easiest, partner that they have. That there there's just no worry. That they know that the lots are gonna take care of them, and that they're gonna they're gonna do what what we agree to do.
Brandon:And I'm really big on communication that way. You know, I mean, we had a couple films, especially in the last month or so. September is usually kind of a slower month where we'll open a film, and it's they they they ask the 2 week commitment, and it just doesn't do well for us. Yeah. And so I'll call them on Monday and say, hey, did you see our numbers?
Brandon:I'm like, yeah, we saw the numbers. And I'm like, is there any way you'll work with us and let us maybe do a split screen instead of a full schedule? And usually, they're like, yeah, we'll work with you on something like that.
Garrett:Yeah.
Brandon:And I it'd be really easy for me to just do it and hope that they don't notice and just move on with life. But I don't wanna be the person that they, hey, we noticed that you're only playing this 2 times instead of the 4 times like we asked. You know, what's going on? And I just so I think that's a big thing is we just wanna be fair and be do what we say we're gonna we're gonna do, and and treat it the way that, you know, play by the rules,
Daren:I guess. There's a lot of lessons in there, not just for people who are in your industry or on your side of the industry, but I think for independence as well, the way you talk about relationships, the way you talk about communication. But a a question that we have is, like, how does the indie filmmaker get in there? Right? Because if you've got an oversupply of product, let's call it product from the big theaters or the big, studios, the distributors that have the the number one film opening weekend, and there's 5 movies that are already clamoring for your 4 screens, What's the strategy or what works or what success have you seen from independent filmmakers to be able to book your screen and get in there and have some of the success and be able to connect with the audience that you've built?
Brandon:Yeah. No. I think that I think that definitely recognizing the time of the year, it seems like, like, end of the summer going into September, those are always really popular months for independent film films, independent film company type things. And and they do well. You know?
Brandon:Faith of Angels, to me, this was a perfect timing because it was kind of in the low of, like, summer blockbuster hits, and it's before the Thanksgiving and the the holiday stuff. And this is a film that I mean, Southeast Idaho, very family oriented and faith oriented. And and it's interesting because this film is like, our Sunday numbers are better than I thought they would be. We're we're open on Sundays, and, you know, they do well enough to be open. And and, you know, it's kind of this debate in our house, on are we doing the right thing by being open on Sundays?
Brandon:Are we not doing the right thing by being open on Sundays? But we've chosen to be open on Sundays. And, yesterday, I was at lunch down in Blackfoot. And this this this older couple comes up to me. And they're like, we we were at the theater on Sunday, and we had an amazing experience.
Brandon:And I'm like, oh, what did you see? And she's like, we saw Faith of Angels, and it was apps and she's starting to get emotional. And she's like, it was an absolutely amazing experience. She goes, I needed to see that film. And, you know, faith of angels is probably not a a Sunday film for us.
Brandon:Usually, that's something we're like, okay. It's gonna we're gonna have 1 or 2 people in there. But its numbers are doing well because our community is so faith based and Christian based. And so I think that going back to your question, timing is probably the biggest thing. And just and just and then just knowing our market.
Brandon:The other thing is is being flexible with, like, we had a we had a film a couple weeks ago that they said, we're not asking a clean schedule, you know, every single show time on one screen. We're just asking 1 or 2 shows. Whatever you can give us, we'd love to have it on screen. And so we worked around a film that we'd had a little bit longer that, you know, the the 12 o'clock show wasn't doing super well for it anymore. And so we gave this one, and we kinda just anytime we can be flexible.
Brandon:I love when a film company says, you know your market better than we do. So if it's gonna work for you, it works for us. And I really appreciate that, that trust and that relationship.
Daren:So maybe you can touch on this a little bit. I know Garrett and I have kind of talked about it from our side of things. But the difference between booking a movie for your theater and then scheduling it, what are some of the considerations that you're making every day, especially those Monday calls where you're going, okay. What's the next week look like? What's the you know, that's the constant hamster wheel you guys are on.
Daren:But talk to the audience who may may not have distributed a movie before, but that's the dream is to get a movie in theaters because those are 2 different things. How do you see them, and and what what do they need to be thinking about with those two aspects?
Brandon:Yeah. So, like, typically, every week, I look at our numbers on on how each film did.
Daren:So you're talking about revenue?
Brandon:Yeah. Yeah. Just the the how many tickets were sold in the dollar of of the gross. And I I rank them highest to lowest. And then it's really easy.
Brandon:I I look at okay. We got we got 2 movies coming out this weekend or one movie coming out this weekend. So, theoretically, I've gotta have one screen wherever we're gonna put this. So I have the decision to make of this movie that opens this weekend. Is it gonna do better than my worst film on my list at this location?
Brandon:And if the answer is yes, then I drop whatever's at the at the bottom, and I and I kind of rotate the the films through. If the answer is no, then I don't book the film. And and there's been some that we've missed out on, that we've just like, okay. Let's let's wait a couple weeks. The other thing is there's a film that that actually opens this week that we that we missed in Idaho Falls.
Brandon:And when I called her yesterday to let her know, hey. I don't have room for it this week. She said, let's follow-up next week. A lot of the big film companies, if you miss it on opening weekend, they make you miss it for 2 weeks. Uh-huh.
Brandon:Where I might have room for a week 2, but they're not gonna let me bring it until week 3. And by then, I I've probably moved on. The odd my my audience has moved on. They've oh, the Paramount didn't get it. And here 2 weeks goes by.
Brandon:And so then they've they've either already gone and seen it at the at our competition, or they've they've moved on to whatever is next in their lives. And so being flexible is really, really big. You know? Hey. 22 shows or one show or whatever you can give us, or let's check-in next week and see if next week makes more sense.
Brandon:Especially if, you know, I've got a 2 week commitment on something, and I'm committed. You know, maybe it would make sense to bring this film in, but I'm I'm committed. I can't. I'd I my hands are tied, essentially. I can't bring this in because I've got these commitments already.
Brandon:But next week So I'm out of these commitments. Good deal.
Daren:Have you ever had an independent do a commitment, or is it only the studios that have that sort of leverage to where they could say you have to play it for at least 2 weeks? Because, we're we're sitting here going, man, that'd be really nice on some of these theaters to, like, have word-of-mouth play out. Yeah.
Garrett:The word-of-mouth is what plays for this one.
Brandon:Yeah. No. I I it's it's always been the the big studios that that do the commitment. Yeah. And, you know, like, I I get it.
Brandon:They've got a lot of leverage and a lot of
Garrett:Yeah.
Brandon:Years ago, I didn't bring a film in from a big studio. It was an r rated film. I knew it wasn't gonna do super well. I I I was very hesitant to every time they'd reach out, hey, do you wanna book this? I'd I'd let let me look and see where we're at as we get closer.
Brandon:I didn't bring the film in. And, my next film that I brought in when they because with with the big studios, you'll book the film. And then afterwards, as the film's getting ready to come out, they'll give you the terms of of your of your ticket sales. This is the percentage that you'll pay us. For their next film, it was substantially higher.
Brandon:And I thought, I'm not gonna rock the boat
Garrett:The terms of what but
Brandon:I'm pretty sure they did that because I didn't bring their last film in. And, you know, the thing that I love about independence is I get the email of what the film is. There's there's a trailer. There's generally a screener, so I can watch it. You know, there's all the information, and then the terms are in there as well.
Brandon:These are what we're doing. And so I know exactly a 100% what I'm getting into before I get into it.
Garrett:How much of a negotiation are the terms and bookings and things like that?
Brandon:Terms, there's zero negotiation. There's one film company that they will give you choices. You can do, weekly terms that kinda fluctuate and change. Yeah. It's gonna be really, really high week 1, and then it kinda scales down.
Brandon:It's gonna
Garrett:be
Brandon:really, really high week 1, and then it kinda scales down. Or you can do, like, an aggregate term that's just the same every single week. Everybody else just tells you what it is. Just that and it's is it usually an aggregate term? Or is it a
Garrett:week?
Brandon:Yes. Yeah. Usually an aggregate term. And are they
Daren:like, let's get specific here. That's what this podcast is all about. And you haven't revealed any names, so you're safe here, buddy.
Brandon:Yeah. Yeah.
Daren:But are we are they typically 50 50 splits with the theater, or what are theaters or what are the big studios able to dictate with those terms?
Brandon:We're getting upwards of 60 to mid sixties.
Daren:For them?
Brandon:On the So they're getting 60%? They're they're getting 60%. Yeah. If it if it's a weekly term, 9 out of 10 times, week 1 is 70%. Wow.
Brandon:And then week 2 is 60, 50, 40, 40, 35, and then 35. I've I've seen just a handful of times in all the years I've done this, It drops below 35%. Wow. And so a lot of those ones, if I go, okay, this is a kid's movie. We're gonna play it for 6 or 8 weeks.
Brandon:Let's go weekly on this. Let's take a beating week 1, and then it's still gonna do well for us in week 6 or 7 because it's a family film. We'll we'll make up for it then. But everything else, if it's like, yeah, we're we're probably gonna be 2, maybe 3 weeks on this. Let's just let's just hit this at the aggregate.
Brandon:Your high fifties to mid sixties. I've seen a couple big blockbusters that are high sixties.
Garrett:So, it that let's see. I'm stuttering and stammering because I wanna try to figure out how to say this. You're getting 40% as a theater owner or whatever in general on on those titles. Is that consistent with independent film?
Brandon:No. No. Most independents I've seen is a 5050 split.
Garrett:5050. Okay.
Brandon:So
Garrett:Well, your story checks out.
Daren:We know because we have the numbers. Gosh, that's really cool though. I think I just wanna process for a second. I think we could do this after our conversation too, Garrett. But, like, the fact that the studios have that kind of leverage where we're sitting here on the indie side going, man, we'd give anything for any amount of leverage right now, where at times it feels like we we're even begging for screens, and begging for people to hold the our movie for a second week so that word-of-mouth can actually benefit them, and we have no leverage.
Daren:And, that's not to cry, woe woe woe was me, but it's like, wow, that's really inspiring that at some point, all these big studios were little indies as well. You know? Even that whether that was a 100 years ago or 20 years ago, but they figured it out. Right? And so that's kind of the the approach for us indies as well.
Daren:It's like, okay. Well, where can we create and find leverage for our movies? And not to bury the lead, but I think it comes down to audience. If we could say we know that, you know, 10,000,000 people are gonna see this movie this weekend. Do you want a piece of that?
Daren:You're the leverage is kind of on our side or it's at least balanced whereas, hey. We're hoping 30 people come to your theater this weekend compared to the big studio opening. Yeah. It makes sense. Perfect sense why a theater like yours with 4 screens would pick the one that's gonna deliver.
Daren:So all that to say, thanks for booking our movie. Yeah. Yeah.
Garrett:Well, it is interesting. So, Brandon, as an independent filmmaker or as you're working I mean, you've got your main industry. Right? You're working with all these big, distributors and then you have a little indie indie film or indie distributor that knocks on your door and says, hey, would you play this little indie? Take a risk on it.
Garrett:We don't know if it's gonna be better than your number 8 movie in your screen. What can we do as independent filmmakers to make your decision easier?
Brandon:Yeah. So, I mean, a couple things come to mind right out the gate. The the first is, you know, just because it's a big studio doesn't mean it's a a good film. You know, we've we've had a lot of political agendas and, you know, different agendas that have been pushed within movies. Like, it used to be that a kid's movie was a kid's movie and you just took the family to it.
Brandon:We're finding now more that parents are coming and screening the kid's movie before they bring their kids to it. I know my wife and I that that's how we feel. Like, just because it's a kids movie or a certain brand or or a film company, doesn't mean you just take your kids to it anymore. And people are going to the to the theater as an escape. It's a it's a staycation.
Brandon:They're going to get away from the dishes and the the the monotonous the monotonous stuff of home. Sure. And, you know, like, during the pandemic, that was really eye opening to me because there were several films that just went straight to streaming. And people as as we talked to them in the community and talked to them at the theater and different things, they'd be like, oh, yeah. We we rented that and watched it.
Brandon:Oh, how was it? It was it was a good movie, but we really missed the theater. Oh, interesting. What did you miss about the theater? Well, you know, we paused it to answer the door, and our kids were texting.
Brandon:And, you know, we paused it to go to the bathroom, and it just it just a 2 hour movie took us 4 hours to watch, and it just wasn't the same. Yeah. And I think that knowing that, like, I really, really appreciate, Garrett, your approach. As we talked this last weekend and your approach to your projects, and you look at the projects, and you look at what makes sense to me, what's a story that needs to be told, what's something that's gonna be touching and tug at the heartstrings of individuals, and there's a message. But there's not this hidden agenda, I'm gonna push this message.
Brandon:It's just like a story. And it's just for 2 hours, we're gonna just take your mind off of the dirty dishes, and we're gonna tell a story. And so I think that the quality of content goes a long way. The the word-of-mouth, boom, boom, boom. Like, hey.
Brandon:You gotta go check this out. Hey. You gotta go see this. You know, sharing it on social media, those types of things. And then just being flexible and knowing, like like, it's fun for me to go back and look at your numbers of week 1 versus week 3 versus, you know, as it as it continues on down the road.
Brandon:And I think that I have to have that approach going into it. You know? A week 2, I look at it and I go, okay. We could have been stronger here, but we just had this event. Garrett was here.
Brandon:There's gonna be some word-of-mouth. I've I've had 3 mutual groups reach out to me yesterday that wanna come see your film next week because they had somebody that was there this last weekend that saw it. Yeah. And so for me, knowing that that's gonna happen.
Garrett:Yeah. It really is interesting. I mean, with this film specifically with fate of angels, that that's what we're seeing, you know, repeatedly, and it it and that's location independent. So, you know, Darren goes out to Dallas for a weekend to do some screenings, and then the following week, Dallas is one of our highest performing areas. And it is such a word-of-mouth thing and, you know, that's probably a conversation for marketing.
Garrett:But we're we're so appreciative of those theater owners that, yes, we know that maybe this is a little bit out of the norm. Say, hey. Yeah. We're gonna show up in your theater and invite people to, you know, ask questions about the movie. That may or may not occur frequently, but we have seen that that has been a strategy that has helped the movie, helped the numbers do better.
Garrett:Yeah. So we're always appreciating that. I think
Brandon:that even, like like, to go along with that, the like like, you're you're welcome at the beginning of the movie that you did. Like, those types of things people remember. You know, I remember I remember after the pandemic, Tom Cruise did that welcome at the beginning of Top Gun. And, like, people I mean, people love Top Gun. I mean, but I think people appreciated just coming out of where we were as a as a as a world and as a nation of the pandemic.
Brandon:We were just in people appreciated that he appreciated them. And it was like it was a 32nd clip at the beginning of the movie, but, like, people talked about that as they were leaving. Like, how was the movie? What did you think? You know?
Brandon:And, well, we we try to visit with people as they're leaving, and thanks for coming, and, you know, letting them know that we appreciate them. And it seems like that's what people talk about. Like like, this last weekend, people were like, oh, that welcome that intro was so fun, you know, with you and your son. And and and, like, those are the things that I think that set set those films apart, if that makes sense.
Garrett:Sure. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, that we're it's easy to copy, something that's that's, you know, left an impact on me as well. Brandy, you've been super generous with your time.
Garrett:We have time for probably one more question. And, Darren, I don't know if you have one. I I wanted to talk briefly about the the building the the program. You showed me kind of the trailers and how you as a theater owner are essentially building the entire presentation for an audience where I'm buying a ticket to the movie, but somebody behind somebody you know, the man upstairs, Brandon Lott, is programming trailers and deciding really what my experience is in that movie. Can you give us an overview on how that works, how you decide what trailers to use and stuff?
Brandon:Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we kind of get, suggestions from the film companies every week. Some of them, they're they're they they ask, hey. We we some of the film companies, they tell us.
Brandon:We gotta have 2 trailers that are our films on our movie. And we'll see that over Thanksgiving, a Christmas, you know, a big blockbuster over the summer. But for the most part, there there's, I take them as suggestions. I don't know if that's what they're meant to be. I I take them as suggestions.
Brandon:And I just try to kind of match the feel or the genre to the genre. So we have a specific trailer pack that we put on our kids' movies. And they're all they're all kids' movies. We're not gonna put something weird or out of the ordinary or, you know, a scary PG 13 movie on a kids' movie. Right?
Brandon:And and that kind of follows in line with the suggestions. But, like, the carpenter, I know that that's a film that's going to be very similar audience base as Faith of Angels. And so we trailered that and put it the very last trailer before the movie on Faith of Angels, knowing that we're this is the same audience. We're we're wanting these this group to come back in a couple months and see this again. And another thing that's silly to me, but is important to me is our our poster placement.
Brandon:Carpenter is is right there as you round the corner. It's the first thing you see as you go in. And we just, like it's just that the subliminal messages of getting it in front of people and getting them thinking about it. And and so I'm I'm very OCD and picky about our trailer trailer pack playlist and our, poster and banner placement.
Garrett:Well, as an indie filmmaker, I'm grateful that you are because going up there last weekend and, yeah, seeing the trailer for Carpenter for my next movie play on my current movie was a thrill. And then coming out and seeing the poster and, you know, taking pictures with people in front of the posters, you know, we work so hard as indie films, and we're already battling the studios. And the worst is to, like, try to battle the 16 year old kid that has no idea what the movie is, and he's just like, oh, you have a trailer or a I think the poster is somewhere around here. And, we didn't see that at all in your, space. So you restore hope in what we're trying to do.
Brandon:Well, thank you so much. The the the biggest thing for me is, like, I'm passionate about this. There's not a lot of days that it feels like I'm going to work. Like, I get up in the morning, and I'm excited to go and sit in the office and and do these types of things. And, like, things like this are fun for me.
Brandon:And, like, it's just it's just really enjoyable for me. It's something it's not just what puts food on the table. It's I enjoy doing it. I love doing it. It's awesome.
Daren:Thanks so much
Garrett:for your
Daren:time. It was great meeting you, and thank you for all the support for our movie. It's been amazing.
Brandon:Yeah. No. Thanks for having me.
Garrett:K. Brandon, look forward to coming back up there for the carpenter sometime in November.
Daren:Awesome. I'm gonna make that trip too, Garrett. I don't wanna You're gonna be coming with shake this guy's hand.
Brandon:Yeah. That'll be fun. No. That'll be really fun. Awesome.
Brandon:So it'd be fun to spend some time with you guys.
Garrett:Alright, man.
Daren:Hey, indie filmmakers and movie lovers. This show is sponsored by Purdy Distribution. Since 2011, they've been bringing incredible independent films to theaters, like Garrett Batty's The Saratov Approach, TC Christianson's Love Kennedy, and MacLean Nelson's Once I Was A Beehive. They've worked with top notch directors like Mitch Davis and Mark Goodman, specializing in family, faith based, and funny films. This year alone, they've released hits with JK Studios like Go West and Villains Inc, and have even branched out internationally with films shot in South Africa and Japan.
Daren:Purdy Distribution works closely with indie filmmakers, designing personalized distribution plans whether it's a theatrical release or straight to streaming on platforms like Amazon, Itunes, Google, and more. If you have a PG platforms like Amazon, Itunes, Google, and more. If you have a PG or PG 13 film ready for the world, think about reaching out to Purdy Distribution. They're approachable and knowledgeable, ready to help you visualize your film's distribution. Even if your film isn't fully polished, they can offer valuable guidance.
Daren:Plus, if you need that crucial distribution piece for investor packages, Purdy Distribution can provide a letter of intent to distribute, helping you secure funding without locking you into a contract. Mark your calendars for Purdy Distribution's upcoming releases. Tokyo Cowboy on August 30th, the digital release of Thabo and the Rhino Case on September 1st, Faith of Angels in theaters on September 12th, Villains Inc on Amazon and Itunes on October 1st, and The Carpenter on November 1st. To stay updated on these releases and more, sign up for their newsletter at purdiedistribution.com. That's purdiedistribution.com.
Daren:Now, back to the show. Man, that was super enlightening to hear because generally, the booker and the manager are different people. When we're dealing with Cinemark or AMC or even Megaplex, you've got a booker that you're dealing with, and then you're manually going over to theater to make sure they the manager at the theater got the memo to hang up these posters and put a standee there and play our trailer and all that stuff. So it's it's really eye opening to see that one person handling both sides of the process, and, honestly, I think how much better it is for our movie.
Garrett:Yeah. I mean, I think that that's what that that really was the light bulb moment for me talking with Brandon last week while they're going, we're indie filmmakers. Like, we're kind of in this, like, scrappy mode on we gotta figure out how to break the wall down and he is an indie theater owner and for I mean there are 100 you know of indie theaters all over the country And I think going forward, like, that that's a market or a relationship that would be worth forging, with other indie theater owners.
Daren:Yeah. I I'm sitting here processing it going, man, you know, the the biggest takeaway for me is how much leverage these studios have. But that wasn't gifted to them because they said we're a studio. Like, they earned it, whether they realize it or not. And maybe they think they have to re earn it every time by spending $100,000,000 on marketing their $100,000,000 movies.
Daren:But, the fact that they know they can drive people to theaters for the most part, gives them a lot of leverage, and we saw that play and how it plays out week to week for an independent theater owner like Brandon. But I I'm curious, you know, like, the this is the part of my brain that that some people do not like. But, like, is there a strategy where you exclusively release your movie in independent theaters and say, hey. We're gonna strike a fair deal. It's gonna be 5050.
Daren:We're gonna give you a plenty of lead time. We're gonna give you all the materials. We're gonna treat you fairly. We're gonna do everything you need. We're gonna come to your theaters instead of premiering at Megaplex or Cinemark.
Daren:We're gonna come to you. Like, if you got a 400, 500 seat theater, we'll come do it or whatever. And just say, look, we we're make we're creating an independent film ecosystem here, and we don't need people that are going to treat our film the way that some of the bigger chains or circuits treated our film by saying, oh, it didn't make enough money, so we're out.
Garrett:And it's
Daren:not it's not an emotional decision. It's a it's purely a financial one.
Garrett:I I think so. I mean, I think that that's a great way to get started and it would be, like, again, pitching to the Independent Cinema Alliance where, yes, you are pitching to 88 theater owners that represent 4,000 screens, which is essentially the 3rd largest chain, you know, next to AMC and was it Regal or AMC and Cinemark? 4,000 screens, is substantial. Yeah. We we don't open on 4,000 screens.
Garrett:You know, we opened Fate of Angels. Our wide release was 375. Yeah. Surely, we could, yeah, use independent theater owners to, really kind of maximize that effort.
Daren:Well and going back to our strategy, you know, that we talked about many episodes ago of, like, let's identify the theaters that did the best. Right? What if we I'm curious. I want to actually go look at this. How many of those theaters that did 5,000 plus in revenue over the length of the run for our comparable films, how many of those were independents?
Daren:And if there's a 100 or 200, could we have exclusively gone with them and said, hey. We're not gonna take the 40 or 45% cut. We're gonna do 5050, which means we make more money opening weekend. And b, they're gonna be promoting us better because they're not promoting 30 films or 24 films or 18 films. They're promoting 4.
Daren:And they probably have a direct relationship with their audience through email and social media. So if we did co op spend with them, it would go it would be more effective because it wouldn't be so diffused. Like all these things come into play when you start thinking about that potential strategy. It's like, man, what if we band together and we just say, Hey, sorry, big theater chains. If you want us, you got to play by our deal.
Daren:Oh, you want us in Cinemark or Megaplex? Great. Here are our terms. You have to hold us 2 weeks. You have to do 5050 or else we're not playing games.
Daren:But I honestly think that's possible. We just have to believe that it's possible first.
Garrett:Yeah. It would definitely be a new new approach, a new strategy. It would be fun to try to prove that.
Brandon:Yeah. I
Garrett:mean, I'm trying to think if I if I were the theater owner, I go, look. I'm an indie theater owner, but that doesn't mean I just want no name movies. Like, I want Right. Have a good relationship with the Disneys and the Warner Brothers and things like that. So there's that trade off of, like, that's nice that that's your strategy, guys, but we're trying to run a business here.
Garrett:You know?
Daren:Yes. You you have to be able to get the audience there to back up the the partnership. Right? If you're just bringing a movie and no audience and no money to the table, that's not a great partnership. But if you're saying, hey, we have a $500,000 marketing budget, we're gonna split it $1,000 per theater or $5,000 or whatever the numbers work out to be, they're going, oh, that's really cool.
Daren:Let's talk. So I don't know. I'm gonna be thinking about that quite a bit after this conversation.
Garrett:Go look back at our numbers. For sure. Yeah. Speaking of numbers do we want to look at box office now that we're at the end of it?
Daren:I do want to look at box office numbers. I I also want to talk to our audience and see which, segments they like the best. So we're trying a new thing today and saying let's put the let's put the title of the podcast content right up front.
Garrett:Yeah.
Brandon:Which should
Garrett:be great.
Daren:I think that's gonna serve us. You know, we gotta be strategic about this the distribution of our YouTube videos and podcast as well, so it extends beyond just our movies.
Garrett:We also did receive a question, a listener question
Daren:Oh, very nice.
Garrett:That I wanna address. So box office. Let's pull that up. We've got, this weekend. Again, we're recording this on October 8th, so we're just coming off of Joker's 1st weekend.
Brandon:Mhmm.
Garrett:Poor reviews, but, the and surprisingly low numbers from what, you know, deadline is saying. 37,000,000, domestic gross. And I think they I think they were hoping for more.
Daren:Oh, they were definitely hoping in for hoping for more. I mean, the first Joker did over a $1,000,000,000 worldwide
Garrett:Yeah.
Daren:And opened it was the the largest October opening ever for a film.
Garrett:It was the number one already movie until, Deadpool.
Daren:Yeah. So they they really fumbled that one, and there's plenty of speculation on the Internet that you can go find if you wanna see what's
Brandon:going on
Garrett:there. To why.
Daren:As to why.
Garrett:Poor reviews, is is what I've read most about.
Daren:Yeah. What I what I do notice, like, week to week though is that, you know, as you go week 2, week 3, week 4, week 5, you know, it's an average of like 40% drop every week. And so that's such an interesting thing to note as, as movies kind of go along. Not as many let's see. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.
Daren:No, I was wrong. 11 1st week opening movies this weekend. A lot of indies that are opening on 2 screens, 18 screens, 2 screens, 23, 7. So that was interesting. And we talked about this last week, I think, where like The Out Run, number 16 movie, did 334,000 oh, no.
Daren:That's not the one. I was trying to oh, there it is. Look Back. Number 12, movie called Look Back distributor was G Kids and 2 screens for a per screen average of $344,000 What is that? How is that happening?
Daren:How do you get 340 grand on 2 screens for a weekend?
Garrett:Are you gonna solve that for us?
Daren:I'm gonna call GKIDS and be like, tell me what is what's happening here, please.
Garrett:Solve it for us because, yeah, I'd love to know. I mean, that's obviously some sort of manufactured number. You know? That movie has done 10,000,000 already worldwide, so it's imported. But, yeah, I mean, the that what is that concept of a movie doing 30,000,000 or excuse me.
Garrett:30
Daren:300,000.
Garrett:300,000 on a screen.
Daren:On 2 screens.
Garrett:Yeah. I wanna be that theater owner.
Daren:It's crazy. Well, another another big weekend where, like, the number 10 movie was a $1,000,000 box office. Megalopolis in its 2nd week made a $1,000,000, which is a 73% drop over week 1, which is unfortunate. I need better go see that before it's out of theaters. I hope I mean, I've heard mixed reviews, but I really wanna go see it because Francis Ford Coppola is one of our, you know, legends of filmmakers in the in the history of film.
Daren:So, like, I wanna go support that movie. But yeah. Crazy.
Garrett:Well okay. So, that's a good box office. Is there an example of our model working for Carpenter? We got the substance at number 9. I guess oh, that's been out, but it's on 600 screens.
Garrett:Week. 686 screens. And,
Daren:maybe made a check-in. You know, Sam and Colby, the legends of the paranormal, 302 screens, 58100 per screen average, number 6 on the box office. And I don't see
Garrett:Well, yes. Here's the theory on that, I think. Sam and Colby are YouTubers. Right? They have a massive YouTube following, and so they have an audience.
Garrett:They've built an audience. Yeah. And now good for them for being able to reach out and make their audience, you know, paid, you know, attend some attend a new medium, a new venue to see them, but it, but it works.
Daren:So When it was distributed through AMC Theaters. So they're using the same model as,
Garrett:Taylor
Daren:Swift and Beyonce and saying, hey. We have an audience somewhere else. We want to bring them to theaters. We don't want to do the traditional distribution route where we give away so much of our money. So I'm curious what the AMC deal looks like.
Daren:Do they take a cut as a distributor as well as a theater, or are they just saying be exclusive to our theaters? We'll do 5050 or 6040. And it's just like any other deal. But look at that, 302 screens. It worked perfectly.
Daren:They made 1,700,000 in their opening weekend as first time filmmakers. Like that's, that's it. Right? That's the difference between having an audience that you can bring to the 300 theaters and having not enough, having empty seats, having a less than $1,000 per screen average your opening weekend. So there it is.
Daren:Still works.
Garrett:Okay. Here's the here's the listener question for this week. This is from, JR at Big Room Sound. It says, just wanna say thanks from Toronto, Canada. I'm a proud I'm a sound I'm not a proud.
Garrett:I'm a sound designer and mixer of 25 years who's prepping to shoot his first narrative short film in November.
Brandon:Oh, that's great.
Garrett:That's great. Yeah. That's huge. I've been on a bit of a mission since a friend gifted me the book Launch by Jeff Walker to figure out how to actually get people to watch, maybe even pay to watch my short when it's done. I can't remember, exactly how I stumbled onto your podcast.
Garrett:Okay. Been binging in a car for a couple weeks. It's very enlightening. Thanks, JR. There have been a number of takeaways I consider the bigger picture of pursuing indie filmmaking.
Garrett:I've started my mailing list. It's just a name so far, but it's been a big encouragement having people show their enthusiasm for this endeavor. Dude, he's building an audience. I love it. So good.
Garrett:Curious to ask about big picture plans for directors, producers just starting out. If the short goes well, still trying to figure out exactly what that means to me, which is great to be able to define that, Then I have another short I'd like to make and if that goes well, I have 2 ideas for features based on the characters from these shorts. What would you guys say constitutes success with a short film and what should be some objectives or goals you would consider for determining that success? And he says, what is going on making faith based, films as a conservative evangelical Christian. JR, man, thank you for reaching out.
Garrett:Thanks for the question. Darren, you want to crack you want to take a crack at that?
Daren:Oh, I got thoughts. So there's this this concept called the domino theory. Right? Which is if you a a domino can knock over another domino 1.2 times its size. And so if you stack up a 5 millimeter domino in front of a 7 meter in front of a not a millimeter etcetera, etcetera, it goes to an inch to 2 inches to 10 inches to, you know, by by domino 50, you're knocking over a domino the size of the building.
Daren:It all started with a little 5 millimeter domino. And so part of what you're doing with the short strategy is saying, okay, this is the lead domino. This is my little 5 millimeter high domino that I'm going to place down on the ground with a pair of tweezers. I'm going to knock over the next one. So part of what you have to do is think about what is the next one and have that in mind so that you when you play out the strategy for the short film, you've either got, here's my next one, or you've got, like, what we're doing with Faith of Angels and the Carpenter.
Daren:We know that Carpenter's coming next, so we put the trailer for the Carpenter on Faith of Angels, and we can guarantee that everyone who sees our first movie sees our second one. So part of it is really clarifying the outcome that you're after and saying, okay. I want to the next thing I want to do is direct a bigger short or another short. And then after that one, I want to do this feature, which is going to be a 150,000, 500,000, a $1,000,000 budget. And if you can, really clearly outline what the outcome is, then you can start thinking about how to reverse engineer a strategy where this first domino will help you knock over the second one, which helps you knock over the third one.
Daren:So you're constantly thinking 1 or 2 dominoes ahead so that when the domino you're on falls, it's got something to hit and continue that momentum.
Garrett:I I love that. And you just pulled that out. That's impressive, Aaron.
Daren:I talk about this, though, all this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's just off the top of my head.
Garrett:I have on my wall and maybe this is, too, you know, revealing too much about my need for self, adoration, a, just a certificate from the first film festival that I entered. It was a short film and it did it did well. I guess to to to Jeff's to Jared's question, how do you, you know, how do you measure the success of a film? I don't know. We had a short film and it won the short film contest that it was in.
Garrett:So I had that certificate on my wall and say look I think that, you know, that's a good measure. Did it did it elicit the response from the audience that I was hoping that it would would, get? And it did. They laughed in the right places, not in the wrong places, and, the the judges saw it as something that it did well. And so, it's a good way to measure that.
Garrett:And from that short, you know, the editor of that short, I brought on as an assistant for my first feature film and, some of those cast members were involved and so I think that like you say, you know, the dominoes are these building blocks from your short film it's not just about creating that film or that story but it's about auditioning the crew. Like are is this a group that I can make these make make the next step with? And, you know if if if they are great if not you sub out, you know, you you sub your starters out, And you're not again, you're building a team that has the same vision as you that is going to help get this feature film made.
Daren:Yeah. That's really cool. I don't have too much to say about the strategy of short filmmaking because I've I've helped produce some, but not ones that I've originated and been like, this is gonna help me get x, y, or z. It was just helping a friend out. Right?
Daren:One thing to add on to what you said is this idea of is it remarkable. So how do you measure remarkable? Well, you could take it literally. Are people saying things about it? Is it remarkable?
Daren:Did someone write up a review? Did someone take a picture of the poster and put it online and say something un unprovoked? Are people coming up to you afterwards and saying, oh my gosh, that really resonated. And they're remarking to you, the filmmaker, how it affected them. And that's a big thing to measure because if you screen a short at a festival and nothing is said about it and it doesn't win any awards, it doesn't mean it was bad.
Daren:It just means it wasn't remarkable. And you kind of need to have something remarkable in order to get the momentum in that it takes you to the next project. And so I really encourage a lot of filmmakers to think about that. What is remarkable about this? How do I position it?
Daren:What festivals am I going to choose so that I have the highest chance of it being remarkable so that you can build that momentum. Otherwise, like, it's it's such a competitive landscape in every aspect, whether it's films or documentaries or shorts, where you kinda have to be one of the best in a crowd in order to let that move you to the next step.
Garrett:Yeah. Which is totally doable. Just Yeah. Keep at it. That's awesome.
Daren:Exactly.
Garrett:K, Darren. Another another good episode in the books. Mhmm.
Daren:I like that one. This is gonna this is gonna be our domino that gets us to the next step in podcast land.
Garrett:Yeah. Well, it's fun fun to see the podcast written up in, in deadline, in association Oh,
Daren:I know.
Garrett:With, Faith of Angels. So
Daren:Whoever did that for us, thank you. Probably Kirk, right? But, like, the fact that it got it mentioned was like, oh, dang. Did not
Garrett:let's
Daren:put it this way, though. I think it's important to note, did not move the needle for our podcast listeners. So, you know, amazing, accolade to say we've got written up in deadline for a movie, but you always have to main keep your eye on the prize and go, oh, is it helping me get the goals that I have? And if not, maybe spend your efforts elsewhere.
Garrett:Okay. Speaking of efforts, this week, we're gonna be in San Diego screening the carpenter.
Daren:Hey, y'all. I guess by
Garrett:the time, this podcast airs, we will have screened in San Diego, Atlanta, and Salt Lake. Actually, no. This we probably have to air this next week. We
Daren:do have to air this next week. Yeah. We're we are not ahead in our schedule right now because we've had a movie in theaters, so we have a good excuse.
Garrett:Okay. So Carpenter is coming out November 1st.
Daren:Yeah. Be
Garrett:sure to, get your tickets and it's nationwide so you should have a theater somewhere close to you. Might be an independent theater now after talking with Brandon. So, Yep.
Daren:Head over to carpenter movie.com. You can get tickets there. It'll show you what what's playing or where it's playing near you. And, yeah, like, with full hard pivot into carpenter mode
Brandon:in the
Daren:next few weeks.
Garrett:And Faith of Angels is still do still in theaters and, performing. I think we booked, Purdy has booked another dozen theaters, to add to for for this coming week. And so, keep looking for that in your theaters.
Daren:Yeah. We're I'm excited to track the the independents going forward because those are the ones that are booking now. Maybe they didn't have room opening weekend because Wild Robot was out, but now they do because this weekend was all about Joker and they're like, oh, we're gonna program in
Garrett:a family. So
Daren:I'm really excited to see the legs that this movie has and how the independents really, help us out. It's gonna be fun. Alright then.
Garrett:Thank you so much.
Daren:Yeah. Talk soon.
Garrett:Next week. See you.
Daren:Thank you for listening to this episode of Truly Independent. To join us on the journey, be notified of new episodes and screenings, and ask us questions about today's episode, head over to 3 coin pro.com/podcast, and put in your name and an email address. If you're a fan of the show, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast app, and be sure to share this episode with a friend. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week. Our intro and outro music is Election Time by Kjartan Abe.