The Craftsmanship and Passion Behind Raleigh Denim with Victor Lytvinenko

In today's episode of Freedom and Glory, we spotlight Victor Lytvinenko, co-founder of Raleigh Denim Workshop in North Carolina. Victor shares his journey from his family's move from Ukraine to his entrepreneurial spirit, leading to the creation of Raleigh Denim. He delves into his passion for craftsmanship, his experience in various crafts such as furniture making and cooking, and the inspiration behind starting his denim company. Victor talks about the challenges of maintaining quality, scaling the business sustainably, and his belief in producing goods that are authentic and rooted in local tradition. This episode is a deep dive into the philosophy and meticulous process behind Raleigh Denim, and the story of how Victor and his team are redefining American-made products.

00:00 Spotlight on American Craftsmanship
00:51 Victor's Journey to North Carolina
01:40 High School Sweethearts
02:33 The Birth of Raleigh Denim Workshop
02:48 Craftsmanship and Passion
03:22 From Cooking to Denim
04:42 The Influence of Denim Industry Veterans
06:41 The Pursuit of Perfection
08:34 The American Dream and Craftsmanship
10:07 Scaling Handmade Jeans
14:00 Finding the Right People
18:13 Revival of Sewing and Crafting
19:02 The Passion Behind the Craft
19:24 Navigating Business Challenges
21:52 Adapting to Industry Changes
24:10 Leading with Transparency
26:58 Innovative Denim Creations
29:38 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
31:29 Balancing Passion and Business
33:15 How to Get Your Own Pair
33:57 Final Thoughts and Farewell

Creators and Guests

Host

Bill LuMaye

Former talk show host at WPTF680 in Raleigh, N.C.

Host

Liz Morris

Chief Executive Officer at Carrot-Top Industries, Inc.

Guest

Kristin Holtshouser

Content Strategist | Viral Content Wizard | Jack-Of-All-Trades Marketer

Guest

Victor Lytvinenko

Co-founder + Designer at Raleigh Denim Workshop

What is Freedom and Glory - Tales of American Spirit?

Welcome to Freedom and Glory: Tales of American Spirit—a podcast celebrating the heart of American craftsmanship, resilience, self-reliance, and the power of disruption. Through inspiring stories and authentic storytelling, we shine a spotlight on individuals and communities who embody these values, proving that small, determined efforts can spark meaningful change.

Join us as we share personal tales of triumph, innovation, and hope—moments that define the American spirit and shape our nation’s identity. Whether you’re seeking motivation to pursue your dreams or a reminder of the power of community, Freedom and Glory offers a powerful dose of inspiration rooted in resilience and determination.

Listen, be inspired, and take action.

06 Freedom and Glory
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[00:00:00]

Liz Morris: today's episode of Freedom and Glory, we're proud to spotlight a creator whose work embodies the beauty, resilience, and craft of American made goods. Vicar Litvinenko is the co-founder of Raleigh Denim Workshop, a North Carolina based company, known for its meticulous approach to denim with respect for tradition and a relentless pursuit of quality.

Victor has helped revive and reimagine American craftsmanship for a new generation. Victor, what brought you to North Carolina?

Victor Lytvinenko: Oh my gosh. We moved here when I was a year old and we actually moved into a house like five blocks from here, so we're in my [00:01:00] old neighborhood. It was cool to drive around getting here.

Um, my dad got a job with IBMI. Um, my parents, well my grandparents were refugees from Ukraine. Mm-hmm. After World War ii and my grandparents both worked in, or my grandfathers both worked in, um, factories in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. And my dad, I guess he got a job at a newspaper. Um, and he learned one of the first computer languages and saw an ad from IBM and they said, Hey, we need somebody that knows this obscure thing that you learned at the newspaper.

And he was like, sign me up. Let's go. So we moved here. I.

Bill LuMaye: That's a nice story. Did you, I know you're married, right? Yes. Okay. What about that, where did you meet your wife?

Victor Lytvinenko: In high school? In the 19 hundreds. High school? Yeah. High. Well,

Bill LuMaye: like you were school lovers, I mean,

Victor Lytvinenko: totally.

Wow. Yeah. I met her at a media's pizza and by, we were watching the world Cup final in 1998. And at halftime of the game I told my best friend I was gonna [00:02:00] marry her. I was like, it's this done, done deal. You knew it

Bill LuMaye: at that time. I

Victor Lytvinenko: did. No doubt. She doesn't believe me, but it's true.

Bill LuMaye: And you're obviously getting along

Victor Lytvinenko: because most of the time,

Bill LuMaye: most of the, well,

Victor Lytvinenko: it, it's good because you're in business together, right?

Didn't you co-found

Bill LuMaye: something?

Victor Lytvinenko: I mean, it's incredible to be in a long-term relationship. You learn so much about somebody and like we're changing so much and we're not who we were 25 years ago. And it is a really beautiful, and in like one of the coolest things I've ever been a part of in my life. One of the things I'm most grateful for.

Bill LuMaye: you mentioned it in the open Raleigh denim. Um, how do you get to that point where you go, you know, um, you know what I'd like to do? I wanted to be an astronaut. That's what I wanted to be. How did you get to a point where you say, you know, I'd like to make denim. I'd like to make some jeans.

Victor Lytvinenko: I've always liked making things, so I've always been entrepreneurial and very like, wanting to be hands-on with like everything I'm doing. Um, I was into. Hmm. [00:03:00] I was into furniture making in college. Um, got into photography, fine art, painting. Um, I really like learning crafts. I like learning how to use, like, learn different types of wood, how to age them, how to.

Build things with them. I mean, the wood moves, it's a, it's a very beautiful thing. Um, all of that got me into cooking. I used to cook in Raleigh at, um, second Empire Restaurant under Chef Daniel Cher, who is one of my mentors. I. From there, I moved to New York and I walked into the best restaurant in New York City at the time, seven years in a row.

Nobu won best restaurant in New York and I just brought the menu from Second Empire and I was like, I know this. And I was like, I wanna work here. And they were like, they gave me a shot and I did really well. Um, after September 11th, I moved back to Raleigh and. I went back to Second Empire. I wanted to learn more, and the chef Daniel was teaching [00:04:00] me a lot about wine.

So I started making wine, um, in my mom's garage right around the corner here. And there's a video, I'll, I'll send you the link. You can post it. It's pretty funny. From 2001 when I was making the first batch of wine at this house around the corner, um. I thought I was gonna start a winery. I was like, oh, this is a thing.

I love craft production. I love like a quality of our quantity. I love something that's like of a place and of our hearts and heads and hands, and just something as singular and pure. The winemakers that I love, they weren't competing with other winemakers. They were just trying to like make the most beautiful thing that they could from the land that they were on and.

I couldn't figure out how to do that here. But while I was up in the mountains here, I met all these people that had worked in the denim industry. So the, mm-hmm. The oldest mill in America was in Greensboro cone Mills, the, the White Oak Plant. They literally invented denim production there. , They filed the patents for industrial denim production in 1905.

I met [00:05:00] some of the. Mechanics. These old guys that were up in Bakersville, North Carolina, they were working in the last Levi's factory in America. That closed in 2005. And I kind of took this like food and wine making philosophy and applied it to denim. I was like, oh, we have a terroir here. We've got like.

You know, the, the denim, the history, the, I met this lady, this incredible woman, crystal Ellsberg, I think she was 76 or 78 when I met her. She passed away a couple years ago, but she was the pattern maker at Levi's in the sixties and seventies. We were just working in this like little like warehouse space with no heat and no windows.

And she walked in and she was like, I heard you make jeans and I wanna work here. And we were like, we've never sold a pair of jeans. We can't pay you. And she was like, she was just like, that's okay. I'll, I'll work for free until you can. Wow. Within. I don't know, six months we had our first order and off to the races and ended up spending, I don't know, 15 years [00:06:00] working with her.

Liz Morris: My gosh, was she pulled in? I mean, I love this quote, I think from your website, um, saying that Raleigh Dunham workshop is American Enterprise slash Art project slash romantic adventure. Was she pulled into that, you know, culture? That sounds so beautiful.

Victor Lytvinenko: Yeah, I. I think that, like us setting that intention is kind of infectious.

I, I don't think at that time it was like out there in the world or being marketed or presented, but, um, her interest and her skillset was just in making, like, hmm. We totally connected on wanting to make the best thing that we possibly could, and I mean, we spent 12 years make hand drawing, hand cutting every single pattern and like almost to a mm.

Like a almost too much, right? Like I don't think that we really [00:07:00] needed to do that for anyone else, but we needed to do it for us. Like we wanted, we knew it could be better, so we kept going and it would keep us up at night 'cause we'd be like, wait, the width of a pencil line is. Or, or the width of a needle is one 32nd of an inch.

But if you, if you sew two pieces together and it's off by the width of one needle, and then you open it up, it's twice that and it's the 16th of an inch, and then add up how many seams there are around the waistband of a gene, all of a sudden, one 32nd of an inch times eight seams can, can, like times two ends up being a full size.

And so this is why like clothes that you go try on anywhere don't fit or you buy another one and it doesn't fit the same. And we were trying to make them all fit exactly the same. Um, so I think she and I really connected on this just pursuit of perfection and it was beautiful and fun. And she was, you know, twice my age.

She was my mentor, but I was also her boss. And there was this beautiful just [00:08:00] relationship of learning from I. Somebody that's been in the business as, as long as she has, and then me and Sarah bringing our energy and creativity to it and kind of throwing it all in the, in the pot and letting it stew like it was beautiful.

Bill LuMaye: Where, where does this come from? I get the sense that you, what you've just explained is part of everything you've done. Mm-hmm. Whether it be the wine or the cooking mm-hmm. Or the rice. So where does that come from? I think

Victor Lytvinenko: it's like. This is a very deep question, so let's go there. But like, I mean, I am I'm living the American dream in very many ways, right?

My grandparents came here to give my parents a, a better life. They're refugees. They were fleeing war in Ukraine. Exactly what's happening right now. Right. People helped them. People supported them. They got jobs. My parents grew up and got educations that were different and or [00:09:00] let's, I don't know if it's better or not.

Um, and, you know, then I got these opportunities of, of safety and security and education and finance and all, all these things that my parents and grandparents didn't have. I'm missing a lot of like deeper connection and history with a place and with a community and with family. Like, I don't have a big family.

I don't have aunts and uncles and cousins. I don't, or not in America at least. So growing up, you know, I, I definitely was like, had a lot of opportunities that they didn't have and I'm missing a lot of things that they have or had. , And I think a lot of my. Pursuit of craft and connection and, and building a company is almost like filling that void of family and community or extended family and community that I didn't have.

Bill LuMaye: That was deep. Yeah, that was deep. But it comes from somewhere. Yeah. [00:10:00] Yeah.

Liz Morris: , I'm just curious how, you know, something that's so. Built by hand how that can scale. Mm. Or you know, at a certain point it feels like you're restricted. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of, sure.

I'm just curious how, how it, how a pair of jeans comes together, how that, how you kind of played within that model that's inherently restrictive.

Victor Lytvinenko: I think, I think the beauty of what we are doing and were doing was that it was. That it was restrictive in the beginning, like we restricted a lot of things.

We said we're only gonna use fabrics from North Carolina. We weren't trying to make things in America. We were trying to make things in North Carolina.

Bill LuMaye: Wow.

Victor Lytvinenko: Of North Carolina materials. Like, because this is our home. This is our place, this is the history. Not for the sake of North Carolina or the sake of America, like just it's of us.

The way that the winemakers are making things that are of them. The winemaker in Portugal is doing [00:11:00] the same thing. Because it's like of their, their place. Um, so I, I think there's like a, a fallacy of, um, the need or want to scale. And, and that hurt us quite a bit. Um, and I don't believe it at all. And if I look to like mature or what I call mature economic markets in, in Europe or Asia or um, in Japan, I don't know, like.

You go to France and there's some cheese maker on the side of a hill that's like a 14th generation cheesemaker, and they make the same amount of cheese now as they did then. And it works great. Yeah. And it's about quality of her quantity. And I think that's a thing that's missing in

this is general about like, I think America being such a, a young country compared to others, a young culture, a young, um. Society in a way. It's like we [00:12:00] don't have those roots as deep as when you go to almost any other country in the world. Um, so I think it, you know, we, we started doing this 'cause we wanted to make an honest thing of our hearts and heads and hands and of North Carolina and of America and of our history and, um, with the dream of it getting bigger, but, and we tried to make it bigger and it didn't necessarily work as well and we're like, no, no.

The thing we were doing in the beginning was. Credible and beautiful and honest, and people wanted it 'cause it was like not easy to get and it was not inexpensive. We were like the, doing the exact opposite of what the market was doing at the time. Right. And, and that's what people wanted. And you know, these jeans like, and we got some on the wall in the shop that people were wearing for 12 years.

And so yes, they're very expensive. They're like two or three times more than most people would ever consider spending on a pair of jeans. But. What pair of jeans do you have has lasted 12 years.

Bill LuMaye: That's an excellent point. I think your timing is great though. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think you're right. I think people have [00:13:00] kind of been starved for this.

Mm-hmm. Because we, everything went away. Mm-hmm. We used to manufacture, I, you know, kids would graduate, go to the mill where their father used to work, and that all kind of disappeared. So I, I, I'm attracted to that as well. Mm-hmm. Um, but you never made jeans before. How did, how did you learn to make jeans?

I bought a sewing machine and started That's, you just sat down and started? Yeah.

Victor Lytvinenko: There was no YouTube, there was no like instructional videos. There was no TikTok showing you how to sew. Like I just took some jeans apart. I bought a sewing machine. I put it in my apartment and I made a pair every single day for 500 days, and I still have all of them.

I. And they were awful. Yeah. But I, like, sometimes I pull 'em out and I'm like, damn, these are awful. And so, and sometimes I pull 'em out, I'm like, wow, these are pretty good. I

Liz Morris: can see your, um, like have a, in a good way, an obsessive personality. Totally. Yeah. So just had to get into it yourself and kind of Yeah.

Uncover the, the details. I mean, were [00:14:00] you. When you're, you know, searching for, for sewers or these craftsmen, craftspeople, is that what you're looking for? Someone as obsessive as Mm. To match your

Victor Lytvinenko: I was passion maybe as a, i, I was for a while. Um, then over the years I've learned how to kind of like. Um, I don't know what the right things are to look for, I guess.

And it's more curiosity than obsession. And so like, I think curiosity is that thing where like somebody wants to learn, they want to know they want to grow. Um, that's, that's like the first requirement. It's like that and being kind, and then the rest of it is like, okay, I'll teach you anything you want.

Mm-hmm. But you have to want to learn. And that's more important than dexterity or understanding how to do something. Like we all, we humans are built to make stuff like we are, this is what we're supposed to, I think what we're supposed to do. And I think it brings a lot of joy to a lot of people. Um, I think it was kind of beat out of us over the last [00:15:00] generation or two or three that like, no, you don't do that.

Or you don't go work in the mill or you don't go to these things like you need to be a doctor or a lawyer. And those are great professions too, don't get me wrong, but like. I think there's a lot of people that just want to actually construct something and see it in front of their eyes with their hands, like putting something together.

And I, I think when we can do that in a meaningful way and, and make a quality product, when we can do something that has a story that, that resonates, it's, I. It's one of the most beautiful feelings, like both for me and for everyone that works with us at the shop.

Bill LuMaye: Well, they signed their products.

Mm-hmm. You gotta have a lot of pride in what you're doing in order to put your name on something. Mm-hmm. How do you find these people?

Victor Lytvinenko: Huh? I, I mean, we ask around, I'm always asking people, but it's never the same. I mean, like, I just had this guy come in the other day. He was working at a [00:16:00] bakery and he had just been, he had been to college but like didn't, wasn't his vibe.

And then he went to Ireland and studied pants making at a place there and came back.

Liz Morris: Oh my gosh. And

Victor Lytvinenko: he just came in and he was like, yeah, he just got back from Ireland. I love sewing. And I mean, we get people every day that are like. I want to, I wanna be a fashion designer. I want it to be, I'm like, this is not Project Runway.

Like this is like, like we're, it's a factory. We're making stuff, and it's not like a sweatshop factory, but like, we are focused on making stuff. And if you wanna sit at a sewing machine for eight hours a day and listen to a podcast and, and make the most beautiful jeans on earth, like, I want you here. But 99% of the people that come in are not.

Looking for that. But this guy was like, yeah, I wanna be there. And I was like, okay, cool. And I was like, oh, well just, you know, you can apprentice with us for a month or two. And then we just hired him last week. And [00:17:00] you know, sometimes I'll go put things, I'll put up a sign at the Hispanic grocery store or the Asian grocery store, or I'll post something on Instagram and every single time I put anything, anywhere people come and it's like, there's no demographic.

Like it's, that's neat. It's young, it's old. It's. Like it's, it's such a broad group of people and you know, over the years it's changed quite a bit, but it's always people that are interested in creating something and like seeing that happen, which I think is all of us. But no, that's very cool.

Liz Morris: [00:18:00] think in a lot of places people feel like sewing or it's sort of a dying art.

Mm-hmm. Um, so. But it's not, I think people think that, yeah, but it's not

Victor Lytvinenko: like if you look on TikTok, if you look on Instagram, like the number of young people that are posting how to videos, how to buy some stuff at a thrift store, take it apart and then create something spectacular, like it's unbelievable how much there is like that, that energy and that need for creation is stronger than ever.

I think it's just the first time that like I. People can be celebrated for that work that they're already doing. Mm-hmm. I think in the past, like 20, 30, 40 years, something like, there wasn't so visible and there wasn't a [00:19:00] Yeah. It's

Liz Morris: not really like a sexy job.

Victor Lytvinenko: Yeah.

Liz Morris: Um,

Victor Lytvinenko: but it's a thing that people, like, people go to their job and then they go home and do this, and that's what they talk about and that's what they post about.

Mm-hmm. They're not posting about the job that they're doing, that's paying their rent. They're like, oh my God, look at this incredible stuff I'm making. And they are, and it's so fun. I think it's more live now than ever.

Bill LuMaye: Well, they love it, right? I mean, when you love something that you're doing, you wanna talk about, you wanna show it off?

Sure. Can I, can I just ask, I mean, how, how's business and who, who are your clients and, mm. Can, can I order from California? Can I order here? Yeah. I mean, just gimme a little background if you don't mind. Businesses ever changing.

Victor Lytvinenko: Okay,

Bill LuMaye: good.

Victor Lytvinenko: It's turbulent times right now. Right? And it's scary. I mean, we've been in this for 18 years and, it's changed tremendously. We were selling to like Barneys and Neiman Marcus and Sacks and Nordstrom, and then we were selling to all smaller boutiques, and then Covid came and we lost all of that, and then we're selling online and that was great. And then the [00:20:00] algorithms change and it's not, and then tariffs and I mean, every single day it's like a, it's a challenge.

Yeah. Yeah. But. Like, we've been here for 18 years and like adaptability is really like, that's the game, right? It's like in business it's a, it's a creative pursuit of, of like, how does this work and how do we make it work and how do we adjust? And like I. Some days that's terrifying. Some days it's really fun.

One of my favorite mentors says that constraints breed creativity. And so every time it changes and it gets hard, I'm like, oh, this is an opportunity for creativity. We need to be like sometimes our, I think our most. Creative and most beautiful design is the business model. Like it's not the gene or it's not like an article of clothing.

It's like that we built a model that has endured at our scale, and I think it's totally possible. I actually wrote this art and my wife and I wrote this article for the Journal of Modern Craft, like 10 or [00:21:00] 12 years ago about kind of mid-size manufacturing businesses. Um, I'll, I'll send you a link to it too and you can link to it, but, um.

We wrote it pretty early on in our, our time and it holds up pretty well. It's, I think it's interesting.

Liz Morris: I'm just thinking about that creative, um, I. What's the word? The, the curious mindset. I mean, I think when, as a business owner, when things get tough, it's the hardest thing to keep that curious mm-hmm.

Mindset and that's how you win. Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I totally agree. How, I mean, I, I, I, you're talking about, you know, sourcing things from North Carolina. How, how is that still, how you're. Your business model is, and like, I'm just curious 'cause you mentioned the tariffs, you know how mm-hmm. How is that? I feel like if you go far enough upstream, it's like, especially in the textile industry, things are moving around, [00:22:00] um, to different, you know, within this hemisphere or whatever, you know, I'm just curious, you know, for trying to source something locally, how that's being impacted.

Victor Lytvinenko: It's very hard and it's a, like, it's a long. It's a long story, so I'll try and keep it short, but we can dig in deeper as you wish. But, in the beginning it was like we could get the fabric from North Carolina. We could get a lot of the cotton from North Carolina, and then it could get the, the cotton gin, the spinning, the weaving.

We were doing the cutting and sewing the thread. Um. I think the only things we're getting from out of state were zipper, zippers, rivets, and the leather, which very small bits of it. Um, you know, over time the mill, the mill closed the wash house that we were working with closed. And so then the mill that was here is now making fabric in Mexico.

The cottons coming from America, it's going to Mexico to get. Woven [00:23:00] it's shipping to us in North Carolina. We're cutting and sewing. We're shipping to LA to get washed 'cause there's no other wash houses shipping back to North Carolina to finish it. Then shipping out to a customer and it's like, you know, we went through a pretty deep crisis in that time.

'cause I was like, this is not what we got into this for. It's actually the opposite of what we got into it for. Um. And we ended up making some decisions about different product lines. So there were, like, there are some things that we are absolutely the best at that we make here in North Carolina which is the salvage raw denim.

And that's a thing that we still make here. Mm-hmm. But the things that require washing we're doing closer to the wash house or the things that like that. Fabric that we're getting from Mexico, we're making a lot of that in Mexico now. And the making it closer, I mean, it took going and visiting and checking out and believing in the, the craftsmanship.

But after 10, 12, 15 years of making what we were doing, we knew enough to be able to transfer that information to other [00:24:00] places and, and we found people that could do it as well or better. Is it my dream? No. Are we big enough to have our own weaving milk? No. So it's like we kind of gotta find those balances.

And I, I think just, I think transparency is the, the key to having a brand. It's like, I'm, we were this, like we were this in the beginning and then things change and we were just open with people. We said, Hey, here's why. Here's what we're doing and here's why you choose. And the prices are different. And then so it, it's, um.

A wild ride.

Liz Morris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think probably if you look at, I feel like that same story is with a lot of other textile people in the textile industry. He just totally, um, have to kind of pivot and, and shift. Do you, I mean, do you feel like your brand is impacting, or, or.

[00:25:00] Like a leader in the denim industry, do you feel like people are looking to you for, I don't know, sustainability or, or. Transparency. How, how do you feel like you're leading the rest of the industry?

Victor Lytvinenko: I do think that we're having impact and I do know that like a lot of people that I know that work at the biggest brands out there, every single person that works there knows about us and or has us on one of their mood boards or something.

Um, you know, are we actually changing things like I. I think we are in people's minds, and I think it's gonna take a little bit of time, but I think us just being open and honest and real about what we're doing, it is leading a way that I. I don't see in the clothing industry that much. And I think it, I don't think it's gonna come until consumers get the education and are thinking about it and are asking for it.

And so I think that's [00:26:00] our part. Our part is like showing, hey, this is possible. Like, oh, you said you can't, people told us that we could not have a fashion brand in North Carolina. We had to be in New York or Paris or LA or whatever. And we were like, we don't want a Capital F fashion brand. We wanna do a thing from here.

Like, let's do the thing from here. And I was like, I don't know. I. I remember thinking a lot about Outkast, the hip hop group. Yes. And like when they came out, like it was all East Coast and West Coast rap, and then they were just like, no, no, no, we have something different to to share and it's as beautiful or better and, and they just did it.

And I think that there's a lot in that. I think that we're kind of doing what we're doing in a similar kind of way. I don't know if it's the same kind of impact. I'm, I don't, I can't make any kind of claim about that, but, but it is possible anywhere to do something honestly and share that. Mm-hmm. And I, I think that's really fun.

Bill LuMaye: You know if you ask a painter or a musician, what, what's your favorite song? It's oftentimes tough for them to give you a name. So, but I'll ask you about Gene. [00:27:00] 'cause they're very, it seems very personal to you, and you've been doing this for 18 years. Mm-hmm. Is there a particular style or is there a gene?

What are your creations that you particularly,

Victor Lytvinenko: my, my favorite thing that we've ever made runs really like, we kind of rebuilt the supply chain. Um, I wanted to make, I wanted to make jeans the same way that my favorite wine makers were making wine and, that's like as closely connected with the earth as possible.

Okay. And my favorite wine makers are making natural wines from organic grapes with no pesticides. Like pure. I was like, can we do that with genes? And I asked a lot of people like, you can't, everyone's like, you can't grow. Organic cotton. It's not possible. I'm like, people have been doing this for thousands of years.

Absolutely it's possible. Like these chemicals have not been around for that long. And so I wanted to grow the, the first or be a part of growing the first crop of certified organic cotton ever grown in North Carolina. And we worked with, [00:28:00] um, e Eric Henry of TS Designs who, who makes a lot of awesome stuff.

Might be a good person for y'all to chat with. Um. He's in Burlington and he got together a group of businesses and we bought futures, um, from a couple cotton growers in Eastern North Carolina to grow the first crop and of certified organic cotton in North Carolina. And then we had it all processed within the state.

So not only did we make genes from the first crop of certified organic, it also had the smallest carbon footprint of any gene that I know of on earth. And it was not cheap, but it was one of those things where it's like, does that have impact? I think so. Mm-hmm. We proved it. It's possible. So now when people say This is impossible, we can say like, no, it is, we did it.

Like can we do it at scale? No, we can't. Do we have enough money to make it? No, we can't, but. Yeah, other brands could, and you know, we did some design work for Patagonia and I chose them and told them, 'cause they're growing certified organic cotton in [00:29:00] Zimbabwe and then shipping it to China and then making things somewhere else and then shipping it here.

And I'm like, okay, it's cool that it's certified organic, but like the carbon footprint is 16,000 miles. Like, I don't, right. I don't, good point. I don't necessarily think that's, maybe that's better than some other things, but I don't know. But I know that what we did is absolutely better and is absolutely possible.

Some

Liz Morris: cool. Um, do you still have those jeans? Oh, yeah. Pay for sale?

Victor Lytvinenko: No, no, no, no. We could only, I think we only made like a thousand pairs or something. This was like probably eight or 10 years ago. But

Liz Morris: that would be a cool pair to own.

Victor Lytvinenko: Yeah. That's my, yeah. So back to your question. That's my favorite. That's your favorite.

All right.

Liz Morris: what, you know, advice would you give to other entrepreneurs or other craftsmen kind of thinking about. Something like this, this model?

Victor Lytvinenko: Mm-hmm. I think I think honesty and iterations are the things that I really, um, believe in most and, and suggest like, I think I.

If [00:30:00] you make a, and anything you make, if it has a story, and the story could just be like, I love this, or I believe in this, or something. Like, there has to be something there. Like, what? Why, why buy this thing from you? Why are you making this thing? Like, why are you getting up in the morning promoting this thing if it's just for money?

Like, I don't think that's enough. Like, I don't, there's no way like, and then I think iterations are really interesting. Um, I've been teaching at the NC State Architecture School this past semester, and that was the thing that I kept telling the students over and over and over again. I was like, do more, do more.

Like don't do two, do three, do do a hundred. And I, I expect on for myself, a less than 1% quote unquote success rate. And those other 99, I don't look as failures. I look as education as learning. And it's like, as long as you're learning something, every step. It's like it's free education. It's not failure.

It's like, no, you're getting better. You're getting better. You're getting better. You're getting better. And I think that 1% upside down rule, 1% success [00:31:00] is a pretty good one to go by. I was making 500 pairs of jeans and I was like, oh, I think I finally got one. That's okay. And it wasn't great, but it took 500 to get to a point where I was like, okay, I believe in this like.

Bill LuMaye: Yeah, a lot of people would've given up Yeah. Long before the 500. Right. And maybe other

Victor Lytvinenko: people can do it in less or whatever, but just, I think that pursuit of the craft, the pursuit of the knowledge, of the curiosity of the learning, like that's the joy of the whole thing. Like

Bill LuMaye: now that you're successful, I mean still here, you find it today.

I, I consider that successful. But you have employees, I don't know how many, but you know, you, you, there's pressure. From that perspective, you know, it's one thing to have the joy to make the pair of jeans, but there's also the business aspect. What's the pressure though? You don't think there's pressure?

Victor Lytvinenko: No, no, no.

What, what pressure are you thinking about though?

Bill LuMaye: Well, I'm thinking if I, if I own a, a corporation or a company, and I have all these people who are somewhat dependent on the, the business being successful mm-hmm. [00:32:00] I, I'd feel a little pressure about that. Sure. Do you? Yeah. Always. Okay, but how do you handle

Victor Lytvinenko: that?

But sometimes I, I wonder why I feel that, and I wonder if I need to feel that or if it's just like some. Outside thing of like a pressure to scale, a pressure to grow a pressure to something like I, I think I kind of let go of the, of the pressure a while ago, like we were trying to be a bigger brand. It was really painful.

It wasn't working. Nobody was happy. And then we kinda let go of that and we were like, we became a much smaller business and a much better business. And there's less, I mean, there's still. Pressure per se, but it's like we found the right balance, like we found the right buoyancy. And so I think the pressure is either like imposed and that's the reason I asked, like yes, from the outside, from people saying you have to be bigger or you have to be more profitable, or you have to make, it's like you don't like, like we can be a very small business and run a very, like, have a very lovely life and not be rich.

And that's awesome and I love it. [00:33:00]

Bill LuMaye: Perfect.

Victor Lytvinenko: That's a great answer. It really is. Um, and, and if it does get bigger, great. But like, that's not my purpose.

Bill LuMaye: Right. I I get that sense. You're in it for, for the love of what you do. Mm-hmm. Which brings me to my very capitalistic next question. How do I get a pair of jeans?

Oh, on

Victor Lytvinenko: our

Bill LuMaye: website, I mean, rally denims.com. Really? I mean, are these truly designer jeans? Do I, I have to measure myself or can I buy 'em off the rack? How does it work?

Victor Lytvinenko: I mean, if you wear a size 32 Levi's order a size 32 Rs. Alright,

Bill LuMaye: that's very simple. See he in love. It makes it easy for me. Yeah. That's, that's all I got.

Victor Lytvinenko: Yeah. There's lots of cool little videos and, and things out there of how we do things. Yeah. Could a great website you do and the machines that we use from the, like 1930s and forties and can see some of the pattern making and I mean, what we're doing is, is very, it's unlike anything else that I've seen out there.

Um, so

Bill LuMaye: I don't believe I've ever met. [00:34:00] Well few people that have your passion mm-hmm. And have kind of a perspective on life that. It goes beyond what I think a lot of businesses exist for. Mm-hmm. And to be successful, however you define it, is what it's all about. Right? Totally. Yeah. That's what I come away with.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a pleasure to have met you, really. Oh, thank you, inspir inspiration. Thank you for having me.

Victor Lytvinenko: This is fun.

Liz Morris: Yeah. Thank you Victor. We really appreciate you coming on the pod.

Bill LuMaye: Yeah. Yeah. So how much of a discount do we get now? You just

Victor Lytvinenko: gotta come over and we'll make some together.

Bill LuMaye: I would love that.

Yeah. Okay, great. Thanks, Victor. Yeah, great meeting

Victor Lytvinenko: you.

Bill LuMaye: Thank you. Take care.

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