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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
GGJPodTerryRedfield
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Intro
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[00:00:00] Susan Gold: This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game education Trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam. Each week we sit down with a new guest. We also feature an indie spotlight highlighting that studio's origin story and their own path and journey.
[00:00:28] This is a space for honest conversation from makers about creativity, collaboration. Failure and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast. Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
[00:00:52] Shirley McPhaul: This episode is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event, bringing together creators from around the globe. A [00:01:00] big thank you as well to the Global Game Jam's. Headline sponsors, epic Games, games for Change, and Ex Sola for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:09] To learn more and to get involved in the upcoming jams, visit global game jam.org.
[00:01:15]
Meet Terry Redfield
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[00:01:22] Susan Gold: Hi everyone. Terry Redfield is a veteran game developer, creative director, and three time founder with more than 25 years in console, pc, mobile, and live ops.
[00:01:33] She's done it all. She's built worlds at Studios from Double Fine Niantic Wizards of the Coast, King, Riot. Where else? Oh my gosh. And now she's co-founder and CEO of Wicked Fox Games, and she's creating games for players with full complex lives like grownups.
[00:01:53] She's bootstrapped multiple startups and she went on to lead major LiveOps and skin teams at League of [00:02:00] Legends, all while navigating motherhood industry and all of those things that are not built for caregivers.
[00:02:08] Terry has always been. One of those voices in the industry that has been about inclusivity, about leadership, about mentorship, about supporting underrepresented people, and she really speaks from her heart as being a woman and a parent, and she has had to juggle the realities of production, layoff and life outside of work. As well as decide to be a creative person.
[00:02:37] Terry, welcome to the GGJ Podcast. It's a joy to have you here to share your path from psycho knots to live ops. And now with Building Wicked Fox. Thank you for being here.
[00:02:48] Terry Redfield: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm really excited.
[00:02:51] Susan Gold: I'm excited too, since I've known you, you've had a variety of color hair. I,
[00:02:57] Terry Redfield: Yes.
[00:02:59] Susan Gold: that was one of the [00:03:00] things that I could always spot you. it was like, what color hair do they have? This conference, you know?
[00:03:05] So thank you, for being so bright today.
[00:03:09] So for listeners who don't know you, how do you describe yourself to people? like if you are at, I don't know, a dinner party?
[00:03:18] Terry Redfield: Uh, that's, that's a good question. I would probably say that, I'm a veteran game developer. I've been in the industry about. Over 30 years now, I think. and that, you know, it's important to me and I love it very much, even though it doesn't love me back sometimes. and then I'm a mom, right? And I have a daughter and that, I'm very involved with Hawaii, which is where my mom is born and raised, and she's native Hawaiian. So that's probably what I'd say.
Wicked Fox Gamess & Rise of Elements
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[00:03:44] Susan Gold: So, tell me something you're excited about at Wicked Fox, or tell me a little bit about Rise of Elements and what you're doing right now.
[00:03:52] Terry Redfield: Uh, sure. Yeah. So Rise of elements. it's actually been a project in the works for like 10 years, I think. Um, [00:04:00] Ben Cammarano, who is one of my mentors, told me your career is like a jungle gym, not a ladder. And that very much is true, right?
[00:04:08] Because I started working on this puzzle game back when I was working with Plato on gardens of Time and we were working on sort of variance that was a puzzle game, Um, and I'm like, man, just another puzzle game. Can I turn this on its head to make it different like a hybrid?
[00:04:23] And it started with little stick figures actually. A long time ago. And then finally over time, I started working on it and messing with it and going and getting it pretty, pretty well perfect.
[00:04:33] I mean, I would test it with whoever would take it, would look at it. My hairdresser, the waitress, I I'm not sort of the one who's like, oh, we have keep the it really quiet. Don't tell anybody. Mine's very much like, oh, okay. please, please try my game. Please, please, please.
[00:04:48] Um, because, making games is hard. You know this Susan. You know this. So, I'd rather get more feedback than, you know, not know what I'm doing. And that's been a pretty constant thing for me.
[00:04:58] Susan Gold: I, [00:05:00] listen, I recall, conferences, like we would be sitting at breakfast and we would use, salt shakers and bottle tops, The fact that you noodled around with it for over 10 years, did you realize that this was the time to actually make this game
[00:05:15] Terry Redfield: Well, so my second startup, I was actually doing a lot of, um, well, my first startup really, I was doing a lot of, work, with other companies and I think guards of time was one of them. a contractor sort of situation. It was during the crash, right after the crash is when I started. Yay. Best time ever. I mean, just like today, I guess. Um, but I was carrying the company in my back doing contract work and I was working for a tech company actually. 'cause again, jungle Gym, right? Sometimes you'll work for a game company, sometimes you'll work for a tech company. And the guy there who I thought was CTO, he was like, wow, I like what you're doing. I wanna invest in your company. Do you have any ideas? And I. First I said, are you serious? Because, we know what the percentage rate for women founders are for fundraising. and then he is like, yeah. So that's when I [00:06:00] told him about this idea, It's basically Puzzle Quest Meets League of Legends is what it is.
[00:06:05] Um, and he is like, wow, that sounds great. Yeah, let's, let's do this. So I made a prototype up and then I essentially showed it around, couldn't find investment in the west. I didn't know about the stats at the time, which is probably good. I might have quit. Um,and I even went up to, uh, Bill Wang, who was at Perfect World at the time. He is like, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been women through here that's raised over a million. And I'm like. Oh man, this so sad. But I'm stubborn. Right? I got that from my mom. and you know, I ended up going and focusing on the east and that's when I started working a lot with Asia and I was talking into Tencent, Exxon, perfect world and they were very, very interested. And then that's when I raised 3 million from Tencent. So I think between Angels and them, it raised about 4 million to make this puzzle game right. and I went through and we actually made it at the end.
[00:06:54] And then we had just finished the game. We had launched it. I had lots of metrics. I was gonna take the metrics to go and raise a [00:07:00] bridge.and then, yeah, I got pregnant. Outta nowhere. But I mean, well, I was told I couldn't have kids actually at all. and at that point I remember thinking like, okay, well it's gonna be hard to raise a bridge pregnant, and I still had no idea how hard it is. Nobody knows until you actually become a mom, but that's when I I decided, yeah, I'm gonna do this. And I had to fold it. So I put it on ice and it's been on ice for a long time and I think it's more appropriate now because now more than ever, I think, a lot of gamers at that time has grown up and we're busy, you
[00:07:35] Susan Gold: Yeah,
[00:07:36] Terry Redfield: And women in particular, I mean that that audience has been growing year over year, 33%, but nobody's really focused or invited them in. I don't think so. You
[00:07:45] Susan Gold: it's a match three game,
[00:07:47] Terry Redfield: Which this is, but just competitive,
[00:07:51] Susan Gold: Um, let's go back a step or two to the moment in your life where you thought. I just play games. [00:08:00] What kind of games were you playing? Were you a kid who was outside and make believe or did you play cards or did you get into video games?
[00:08:10] Terry Redfield: Ah, yeah, for me, there wasn't an internet back then, right? So it's not like you just go on and look it up. But I love games since I could toddle pretty much. I had this little LED football game. Gosh, I forgot who made it even. but I wore the keys off of it. I was probably like six or seven. and I just loved it. And then, around that time was like pong, and we were quite poor, right? So I couldn't really afford my own. So I would go to friend's houses and use theirs. And I just like, wow, I love this so much. And I say, at the time, it was easy to be balanced because, it was hard to get my hands on things back then.
[00:08:46] So, I would do athletics and things like that,And the other second thing I do the most was either. Go to the arcade and watch people play, or go to my friends and play in this Atari 2,600 or think about games. So I always had this sense of [00:09:00] like, yeah, I wanna do this. I don't know how, and I don't see a lot of people like me, but I, I, this is what I wanna do.
[00:09:07] Susan Gold: I, I love that. And it's like you intuitively knew.This is what I love and this is what I'm thinking about. And these are the things that keep you coming back. I like how you said that there was balance because you also were running around outside and being a normal kid, having, you know,going to play soccer or football or whatever it was.
[00:09:32] Play was a part of life, right? I think that's one of the things that I don't see now as much is kids don't have as many opportunities to play, especially unsupervised,
[00:09:44] Terry Redfield: It's true.
[00:09:45] Susan Gold: I think my mom only cared that I came home for dinner and I came home before I was supposed to go to bed. and otherwise it was a free for all,
[00:09:56] Terry Redfield: I know very different from today.
[00:09:59] Susan Gold: [00:10:00] absolutely Well. Uh, let's go back to your early days, in a place like 3DO where you've decided to make this your career. What were you trying to prove and to who?
[00:10:12] Terry Redfield: Well, gosh, I mean, you got jobs very differently back then, there wasn't any gaming schools, there wasn't any conventions really. I think I was at a tabletop role playing game convention like QuestCon in the Bay Area and a friend of mine had been working at 3DO and he is like, Hey the baseball team's hiringAn art intern, do you wanna come and try out? And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, I'll do it. I don't know anything about baseball. He is like, that's okay, it doesn't matter. So, I interviewed for that team that was the high heat baseball team and there were like three women on that team. And I was interviewed by them,
[00:10:44] And I'm like, wow, there's so many women in games. I had a really skewed perception because of that experience and they just loved me and it was not really an interview, honestly. They just talked to me for a while and they said, oh my gosh, you're great. Yeah. Come in tomorrow, it was literally like that. And so, [00:11:00] yeah, I started working in games then, and the ladies took me under their wing and I felt. Really grateful. I still feel grateful to this day. for, helping me into the industry, but boy did I learn after that, that that was an exception, not the rule.
[00:11:15] Right.
[00:11:16] Susan Gold: Right, right. I remember my first GDC there were. Guys asking if they could go into the women's bathroom because there was nobody in the women's bathroom and there wass a line at men's bathroom
[00:11:29] Terry Redfield: I remember
[00:11:31] Susan Gold: So yeah,
[00:11:32] Terry Redfield: That's one perk.
[00:11:33] Susan Gold: It was in those early days, there was never a worry about the bathroom. But I remember I went into a Dolby party and I was the only woman there.
[00:11:43] Terry Redfield: Uh, yes,
[00:11:43] Susan Gold: And there were all these guys dancing by themselves and I'm like, wow, there are no women here.
[00:11:51] Terry Redfield: Unless they brought in help. Do you know what I mean? Booth babes, et cetera?
[00:11:57] Susan Gold: Oh yeah. the naughty nurses from Microsoft. [00:12:00] Do you remember that year?
[00:12:01] Terry Redfield: Oh, yes. Yes, I do.
[00:12:04] Susan Gold: Yeah. Just a totally different time and place. And that's the whole thing is that you and I have both seen this swing arc of, the industry growing up a little bit. You know,
[00:12:15] Terry Redfield: and then also, it's really a business first and foremost. That's the one thing that. Everyone forgets when they're in the school and a creative, and I'm going to do this. I'm gonna, Nope, it's a business first. Please remember that.
[00:12:30] Yeah.
From 3DO to Double Find
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[00:12:32] Susan Gold: So there you are. You have your first job. How do you decide to move? When do you decide that it's okay? psycho knots is one of the highlights of your story. How did you end up at Double Find?
[00:12:47] Terry Redfield: Uh, well, you know, if you heard about 3DO's history, they had a lot of layoffs. I mean, it would be a cycle pretty much every other year. Um, andI lasted for quite a long time 'cause I went from high [00:13:00] heat baseball over to cycling studios and I work on this first person shooter tank game. And then after that, that whole studio got laid off, pretty much, and then I'm like, maybe I'll go back and finish my degree, you know? but then a friend of mine who worked at Double Fine, he was like, Hey, we could use some help. And that's when it was tiny, it was a, it is indie at the time, smaller indie.
[00:13:18] And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'd love to. so I went over there and, job rules were very different back then. I mean, lots of people working for free just to get into a place, It was quite loosey goosey. As far as employment rules went,
[00:13:31] and I liked the double fine team because it was very diverse. Right. There's a lot of women working on the game as well. Just like I had seen it at, uh, the 3DO High Heat baseball team, when I went over to the Cyclone Studio,
[00:13:41] I was the only woman in the entire studio that worked in the game, and that was a really not a great feeling, And I was worried like, oh my gosh, the whole industry's gonna be like this. Do I, I, the first time I thought about maybe this isn't for me. but I think double fine changed that.
[00:13:56] So I went in there and, did the interviewing thing and Hey, I wanna come on and help with [00:14:00] this. And, then I think once we started getting into it and people were like, oh, oh wow. She's like doing a lot of great work and they hired me on.
[00:14:09] Susan Gold: That's wonderful.
Jamming in the Office
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[00:14:10] Susan Gold: Um. Not to bring in jamming as a primary thing, but one of the things that, Tim did was he had jams in the office, and you were an early part of that, weren't you?
[00:14:23] Terry Redfield: Oh yeah. we started the jams probably towards the end to kind of lost steam. 'cause it was pretty intense. I'd say in the two years we kind of shipped Psychonauts. It was very intense. So I think those jams were to break up the. Every day the like, like let's just take a breather. and I know they continued after I had left after such second not to shift. I think they did it more so to make their games and put out the games that were popular in the jams. And again, there was no way to tell things back then. you don't have a lot of metrics. And I think that was the closest we were gonna get to metrics.
[00:14:58] Susan Gold: it's funny when you say [00:15:00] that. when the world turned to just looking at data for making decisions versus that time where we were just like, well, it's fun to us.
[00:15:09] before we just went with our gut and
[00:15:11] it proved pretty good.
[00:15:13] Sometimes I always question why are we always relying on data, but all right. Were you afraid that psycho knots would never ship? I mean, it took two years to get out the door, right?
[00:15:28] Terry Redfield: actually it's been like five years. To get out the door. Yeah, actually it had been going for a while when I joined, so I joined towards the end. but I think that it was, wild west startup life. a lot of people had never been in a company before of their own right. so you're kind of feel like figuring it out. And I think we had a, a process also. We didn't have a lot of game design per se. back then as far as like your normal, I've gone to school and I've learned this structure. It was very much a lot of empathy driven design, right. Based around Tim's writing. And I think at first it was a lot of like [00:16:00] redoing a lot of stuff. And you see that today, even in big studios, They extend their budget. There's multi hundreds of millions of dollars. But I think a lot of that is around oh, well let's change this midstream, and I think that's what. Was going on until we started having these jams and talking to each other. And then we realized, wow, my level doesn't go anywhere. My level doesn't connect to your level. Um, and it wasn't until we started being like, okay, well I'm gonna make this. How does it connect to you? how does my power connect to your level? How can I, the player use it in your level. And then that's when it started to really gel, I feel, is when we started like really stacking them so that they felt like a more cohesive game. And that wasn't until the last six months.
[00:16:39] Susan Gold: Wow. if you had to freeze frame Terry, then who was she? Like, were you a cowboy? Were you rodeo?
[00:16:51] Terry Redfield: Gosh. Yeah. I mean, I, that's a good question. I think we were all supportive each other, and that's a unique thing about Double Fine at that time [00:17:00] was that, it was a. a game of love, right? We, we loved that game. We loved it. And I think we were willing to go above and beyond for it because, it was a game for everybody and you just didn't have that at the time. You didn't have a game that was really wanting to pull in casual folks, so that, that term didn't really exist then. Right. But we knew, since our team was so diverse, we want to have a broad audience, And that concept also is kind of foreign. and so that's why we were so in love with it. And so we just, it just kept us going. So I'd say I, I was more of a, cheerleader. Very bubbly at the time. You think I'm bubbly now? Man, I was really bubbly back then. just providing Hey, we gotta, we gotta get this thing done. You know, we, we gotta do this.and it was like this force, you know,we were really outta steam by the time, but I'd say,that's what kept us going, and that's the part I played,
Terry the Founder
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[00:17:48] Susan Gold: That's wonderful. Now, from there, you decided to become a founder, right? you talk about, starting a studio with just [00:18:00] $3,000 in your pocket So what were you thinking of? And what were you betting on in yourself that said, I can do this?
[00:18:10] Terry Redfield: Well, I, I feel like it's due to the support of women I was lucky to have in my career that early on. And then right after Double Fine. I, I joined a startup, 'cause I was curious. I'm like, wow. And virtual worlds were popular then. So I joined this kind of. Music discovery, virtual world, and these guys had raised 30 million. This is during the tech bubble, and they didn't know anything about games at all, they barely knew about the music industry. And the whole company just ended up imploding. But um, after that I was like, well, if these guys can do that, I can raise too. And I think that's important. Because I don't know if I would've gone for it, if I knew what the raising situation was for women at the time. and I ended up going like, yeah, I had 3000 of my dollars. and I'm like, well, I'm, I'm doing this. I went down to the secondhand store, bought my business clothes, and there
[00:18:58] I had my little blazer and [00:19:00] everything. and I joined this incubator, slash group called Ostia meant to help women build high growth businesses 'cause there wasn't anything like that in games. This is more tech, but it was the only thing I could think of to do. and the woman who runs it, and she still runs it and she's amazing.Uh, her name's Sharon Fasmic. So. I'm like, I'm gonna do this. I put my pitch together, knowing nothing about that. Then I go into their room and I'm the last person pitching and you have to pitch to get in. They only accept a certain amount of people. And I I have videos in my pitch deck and I was basically trying to make roadblocks with adults. That's what I was trying to make. So anyway, I go to the thing and they're like, Hey, so your videos don't play in your slide deck. And also they're all mixed up. And also, I know we said that you'd be pitching to like, 10 people, you're gonna be pitching to like 60 people. And I was terrified. I had never spoken in front of people before. I've been on stage with a bunch of [00:20:00] people, double fined, but like I had never spoken myself in front of that many people.
[00:20:04] So I get in there and I go up at the front and I just wing it. I had all this super performed, which was terrible. That whole like very structured thing is not for me, but I just got up there and started talking about my mom and how games were important to her and that I wanted to make something that I could, she could play with her grandkids and I, I asked questions to the audience, like all the things they say you should do. I just did out of like. Feel, and then at the end of it I'm like, I definitely failed. They think I'm a joke. There's no way I'm gonna get into this thing. And then the next day they're like, oh wow, you were like one of the best presentations.
[00:20:41] Susan Gold: That's fabulous.
[00:20:43] I'm so proud. I'm so proud. I mean, you're prepared, you know your stuff, but then you have to Reinvent the wheel on the fly. I really am a champion of learning to build the plane while flying. So, um, I really believe [00:21:00] that's part of success, is having to think on your feet and think out loud. Oh my gosh, it's a hard thing. And the fact that you showed that mastery at that early point in your career, that's a really positive, that says a lot.
Build your Network & Find your Tribe
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[00:21:16] Susan Gold: So here you are, you pitch, you're in this org. What else do you decide to do? How do you balance everything? How do you offer, how did you find other women in games?
[00:21:30] Terry Redfield: Oh man, at the time, I mean, like I said, I was lucky. That's why I tell young people to build your network. Right? It's so important to build your network. 'cause at the time that's what I was doing. I just didn't. Realize it, I suppose. And there was few of us, right? But we, we would know each other you and I know each other.
[00:21:47] And I think that's just multiplied, right? Since then. But I leaned on my network pretty early on 'cause I'm a pretty social person, I, I like to help others. Um, it's like a whole aloha thing in Hawaiian [00:22:00] culture, right? You like, help others and then, it tends to come back to you. You don't, you try not to spread bad things.
[00:22:06] And I think overall that, that just helped a lot for me to kind of find other women and understand like, oh, what are you doing? What am I doing? What's happening to me? What's happening to you? And back then I feel we didn't have as much of a voice. there's some things that you could say in private and there's some things that you couldn't right.
[00:22:23] For fear of am I gonna lose my space? In this industry if I say anything. so it was really important to have sanity checks, friends who could give you a sanity check.
[00:22:34] Susan Gold: I was very fortunate because I wasn't in industry. I was. Around industry and I got to work with industry, but I didn't have to deal with that. And I always was curious, as a woman, I'm so appreciative of that, but I'm also appreciative of the woman who soldiered on despite who said, okay, fine, and then [00:23:00] still persevere through it. That to me says something. one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is, you said you like being social. Our jobs don't necessarily allow us to be super social. It's not like we can be like, oh yeah, Tuesday night at six 30, no problem. I'm I'm never free, you know?
[00:23:24] Terry Redfield: It's true. I think like most of my friends were in industry because of that reason. Right? Like and I feel like we felt like we were banning together birds of a feather. you automatically have connection, especially when you've gone through a trauma. Your trauma bond, and you've gone through it, a really tough release and you're all sleeping under your desks and things like that.
[00:23:44] it wasn't healthy, obviously we know that now more than ever, but back then you're just like, wow, I'm so lucky to be in this industry thing I love, and I think that's why it ended up you know, people taking advantage of that. That vigor, that, that excitement. And I think that's when it turned [00:24:00] into something. we had to start swing companies over, uh, fast forward. But I think at the time, it was nice having people who understood what you were going through because, being in games back then, they didn't think it was a real industry.
[00:24:12] It was not gonna make money. I was told multiple times, that's gonna starve.
[00:24:17] You know, you shouldn't be in this. Like my, my instructors even, um, at college, they were saying like, Terry, that's what the loser artists go. You really need to go into like Disney or Pixar and not, don't go into games. They would toss out a lot of my materials I bring in from GDC, I also, I joined the, the gosh, early on I was part of the conference associates and that helped a lot.
[00:24:40] Susan Gold: That is a big thing. I always recommended to students that they try because not only those people become friends forever, the cas uh, were always like they knew each other from 10 years ago, and that's how they also get jobs.
[00:24:58] Terry Redfield: It's true. Yeah. It's a great, and [00:25:00] I, I also recommend it to young people, hopefully it continues on all healthy, with the, all the shifting going on with GDC now, but, but especially back then, you know, like I said, when you're a young woman and it gets scary sometimes, when you're in this BAA crowd of older men. It's, and I've always felt that they looked out for me.
[00:25:18] Susan Gold: I always felt that I was looked out for as well. I only had good scenarios. I, I really can't speak to any of the others, but I feel like I was very fortunate. I know there is a messy unpolished part that people leave out of their stories. And,
Navigating the "Unpolished" Side of the Industry
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[00:25:38] Susan Gold: are there any things that you would tell young people now, or people in the industry, how you navigate that stuff?
[00:25:47] Terry Redfield: Well, I mean, part of it's great that you're telling these stories, Susan. I think like it's nice for them to understand who trailblazed before them, because it was difficult. there's times when I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I staying here? I'm [00:26:00] not being paid as much, right? I'm like working all these really horrible hours. That's not conducive to a normal life. and it's just a fight, especially when you're trenches of dev, right? Um, but then, so thinking back of the people that stayed in for, to trailblaze and having an appreciation for that, but also today you have a voice now, right? Because of that trailblazing that had happened. You know, there's whole firm of women lawyers now who sued Riot, For the same problems. And then they just settled with Niantic. Actually, which is where I was at at the time. So, they have options now, right?
[00:26:33] So I, I always tell 'em like, Hey, you have options. use it, you have a voice, use it. I tell my daughter that, I'm like, baby, you have a voice. You have to learn how to use your voice, because that's gonna be the thing to get you through no matter what.
[00:26:46] Susan Gold: I love that that is a pearl of wisdom that is, should be shared.
Live Ops
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[00:26:51] Susan Gold: So let's go a little bit into your live ops life. you stepped into roles in both Niantic and Riot, and you were responsible for these [00:27:00] very large teams and massive communities. How did that change your definition of creative work? Because all of a sudden now you weren't creating the world.
[00:27:13] Terry Redfield: Yeah, I mean there's always some elements of that. Generally, I, I find like the best things I've done has been because I go hands on with the team and I know when just let them take it and run with it. So it's like how much do you guide and how much do you just let go? Because I think if you're too hands on, you're micromanaging people. They don't like that, and you end up not having great products, as well, and you break your network, right? 'cause people are like, oh, that person's so difficult to work with, and you also can't be a friend either. Either because you're their boss, So something could happen where you have to fire your whole department and that sucks, you know?
[00:27:49] but I try to be supportive and firm, just like I am as a mom, actually. and I think you can influence that way though too, So with Riot, you know,I mean, I didn't expect to run a 300 plus [00:28:00] person team, right? I was actually gonna go on the wild rift game. I moved from London to do so. And again, like people gotta be ready to pivot, to your point, because they're like, oh, hey, yeah, sorry you don't have a job, but we had this job over here. Do you want it? I'm like, yes, I have a child. I need to have a job. I'll take it. And I got dropped into league. And at the time there wasn't any other leadership either. a lot of them had left. So, it was me pretty much. And my art manager, who was great. and I think a lot of artists who are unhappy. 'cause for whatever reason, that I didn't know, the structure has broken down a bit. So it was really more about detective work of uncovering what's making them unhappy? Because it's more about people, when you're at a higher management level than like a lot of Creative hands on work. But when you're trying to take care of them, you can influence the creative in more of a, okay, let's make this system that's going to supercharge your creativity and make sure that everyone is talking, coming together.
[00:28:54] I had this one, workshop We had everyone get together and make cool little skin [00:29:00] ideas and they had to. Poster paper and glitter and glue and cut out and construction paper and they would just work together on something fun like that. I mean,
[00:29:09] Susan Gold: Isn't life better with glitter?
[00:29:11] Terry Redfield: Yes, that's what I said, we have to have glitter.
[00:29:15] Um, but you know, for instance, during our time some of the most successful skins they had was during the time I was art director, and that was me being like, okay, you know what let's talk about metrics. Let's talk about what players want. Let's talk about how making money is not rational, making money is an emotional thing. Players have to feel connection to that character. That character has to resonate with their play type, And when we started more focusing on that, when we're building creative stuff, then you know, it sold really well.
Learning to Balance it All
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[00:29:45] Susan Gold: So. here you were 300 plus people. how do you lead the charge and still be the same. Terry, that was at Double fine. Where you knew every person you knew when they were going to lunch, you knew what their [00:30:00] favorite meal was. that person that was the cheerleader, that loved everything that she did. How do you balance those things?
[00:30:08] Terry Redfield: Oh man, that's, that was tough because I didn't balance it Well, I'll tell you that. it's very stressful when you're in that lots of people situation, especially I, I I think the more you care, the more difficult it is, uh, because you're feeling all that impact emotionally when things happen within the corporation that you have no control over necessarily. And when people are feeling pain, now I feel a pain. 'cause I'm like a hyper empath. and I had discovered like, wow, maybe these large situations are difficult. but I also learned not take on that stuff. You have to like build up armor. And that's something that I've learned more recently, coming outta that situation because, I worked real hard to make the impact and figure out what the impact should be. and then, I ended up getting a couple blood clots actually in my lungs going flying to Singapore. 'cause I also had Singapore that I was working with as a, as an alternate [00:31:00] pipeline.
[00:31:00] And I think it was because I was so stressed because my doctor was like, you have no history of this. And look at your blood pressure crazy from what it was before. And, it was all that stress. And flying back, I'm like, wow, I don't feel so good. And then like I get to my sister's house.
[00:31:16] and she rushed me off to the hospital. 'cause in the middle of the night I just felt like I was having a heart attack. And then. Low and behold. two blood clots in each lungs, And, um, they put me in the hospital for three days and it took me months to recover.
[00:31:29] And during that time I had a lot of time to think, what is it that I want? I have a daughter. I have to be here for her. And that's what led to me saying, Hey, sorry guys, but I need to resign. and Bungee had reached out previously and I just had to make a difficult choice because I've been playing League of Legends since it came out. You know, I always was very interested in the Riot and what they're doing over there, and I loved that game, but I had to give it up because my health's more important, I have to be here for my kid.
Choose your Battles
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[00:31:58] Susan Gold: and I [00:32:00] wholeheartedly agree. So now you've designed a life that has a manageable amount of stress, when did you know absolutely that it was okay for you to say no to Bungee?
[00:32:15] Terry Redfield: Yeah, that's a good question. fortunately when I got there, I had a couple of choices. I could go onto another five year project that was just starting, 'cause new AP had been my thing traditionally, or I could go on this smaller mobile product that was. Towards the end of its life, but needed some massaging, so more like publishing, I'd say. But a weird co dev hybrid sort of situation is very interesting. And it was another lady I would get to work with, actually, both projects had amazing, wonderful ladies I get to work with. so I went with that one 'cause I was recovering from Riot, I wasn't sure if I could take on like another big project and give Emmy everything she needed. so I ended up going on this smaller one to lick my wounds, I guess you could say. Um, and I, I have [00:33:00] great respect for Justin Truman, who he's now running the entire studio, but he was my boss at the time and he just let me and Tricia run the project, like truly run it, without a lot of, interfacing 'cause we got the sense that he trusted us. We took a project that was withering on the vine a bit, and then now it's won awards, or I've been nominated for awards. and players loved it. and I'd say that's. A little different, right? Because I, I had say I, I work with Tricia, but we pretty much just ran the thing.
[00:33:28] Um, there was a couple times we had to say no. And I think that it's difficult in a corp setting, right? Because like you said, it's a business. I've learned that a long time ago. So a lot of times I'll ask questions, To understand what the no is for. Then I'll weigh it and then I may push back, but I often, I don't, 'cause this is the thing I tell people, I'm like, don't get so caught up in a corporation because they're not your family and you're not gonna be making those millions of billions of dollars the game might [00:34:00] generate.
[00:34:00] You're gonna be making a small portion of that. So keep that in mind. So when you get really wrapped up emotionally into it, and then execs are pushing on you, you just have to make sure they understand what may happen. What the consequences could be, and if they still wanna do it, you just do it to the best of your ability.
The Journey
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[00:34:19] Susan Gold: I love that. You talk a lot about empathy and being hyper empathetic, and I, I totally understand that, and you talk about when designing you design emotional journeys for the players. How are you designing your emotional journey right now?
[00:34:41] Terry Redfield: Well. It's been a journey, lemme tell you, Um, I'd say, actually, you know, it is funny. I just had a, I guess like a, one of those circle journeys and you have like cacao and rapé and first time I've ever done anything like [00:35:00] that. And what I realized in that journey is that I'm holding onto a lot of this, uh, I'd say baggage and, all the pain I've had and the emotional, I'd say, suffering from my art.
[00:35:12] I've had. and I was holding onto that, like it's like bound. I was bound by it, right? and it was really influencing how I would come out to people and how, what things I would say. And I was, it's holding me back a bit. And so since then, I just feel like I've let a lot of that go, and acknowledge that it did happen, but not let it define who I am.
[00:35:34] I feel like that, remember that that movie Labyrinth, where the, was it Labyrinth where it had that creature that would put her old stuff onto its back? Do you remember that? Uh, I felt like that creature, and I, um, and I just felt like
[00:35:49] Susan Gold: all of that,
[00:35:50] Terry Redfield: exactly, and it was a session with other ladies as well, like six or seven ladies. They weren't necessarily from games, but I felt like I was able to start shedding that [00:36:00] after so long, you know.
[00:36:03] Susan Gold: So as we start to wind this down, tell me what kind of life do you want your future games to make possible for players? Because you are creating this game that we don't have to spend. Three hours playing just to get anywhere. how do you see that as being an expression of you? Because You have to juggle so much. You have not only the business side, you also have the leadership and the mentoring piece. You have your family, you have just in general, not just your daughter, you have a partner, you have people that you work with, and you have a life. How do you keep up on all of that demand? how do you take care of yourself?
[00:36:52] Terry Redfield: Oh yeah, that's very important. a lot of the time I would just go, go, go, go, go. And I think that's also part of what led to me, getting very [00:37:00] sick. like you feel it in your chest, You feel when you're getting to the point where you're at capacity and now I understand when that is. And then I just stop and take a break. I just stop. I'll go to the spa, I'll go for a walk, I will. Take a day off, I'll take two days off. You know, it's okay. 'cause I driven people I think, feel like they can't take time off. And the thing is, that thing is gonna be there tomorrow. unless you have a deadline that you really tight, one, you have to fit and you have to have it like right now, which isn't generally the case. Just take the time, 'cause if you get sick and you're in the hospital, it's gonna be a lot more time. It's gonna be a lot more disruptive. Um, and I say like, it's the person how I manage everything. I just learned this also more recently is that, to prioritize. And toss out the things that aren't giving you joy.
[00:37:52] like a condo, Maria, my friend, said I condoed it. it's, you just start prioritizing and you just have to leave that [00:38:00] stuff, Even though you are like, oh, but this and this and this. It doesn't get you where you wanna go, at the end of the day.
[00:38:06] Susan Gold: For me, I'm reading Mel Robbins, let them, and it's let them and then let me, is the whole thing. And I really think that's a lot of what you're saying. It's like you do you. I'm going to do me, and I really love that for you. I love the fact that now you can embrace your life and all of the things that you love, all without making you tick.
[00:38:31] And additionally that juggling now is more fun. I'm happy to do it. I'm happy to bounce these balls around because they all make you happy, and that really comes through, I think, in your overall demeanor, by the way, I mean, having known you for as long, there is a piece and a tranquility about you now that I think you're at a place in life where you're genuinely [00:39:00] pleased.
[00:39:01] Terry Redfield: Exactly. Also, I think my high level focus is before I'd be like, ah, I need to get this game out, but now it's more like, how can I build wealth and a platform to help others because I realized that I'm not gonna be able to do that. Unless I'm able to say build a game industry in Hawaii, right? for the locals there, the kids who don't have any opportunities.
[00:39:23] How am I gonna lift other women and people of color up to be able to do their dream jobs? Right? I can't do that unless say I worked with an amazing person like Jenny, who's my business partner right now, and being able to like say, create a fund, right? Or something like that. 'cause there's just not a lot of that right now.
[00:39:40] Susan Gold: No, there isn't, and there's not any government help. So I truly understand. And if you ever need a volunteer, I volunteer to go to Hawaii for a month or two whenever you need.
[00:39:53] Terry Redfield: That's the general response I get. So I'm so happy that I have this wealth of amazing talent, right? Who can come and like [00:40:00] work with the kids there.
[00:40:01] Susan Gold: Absolutely. I, if anyone ever asks me, I'm always like, what can I do to help? It's easy. honestly, at this juncture in my life, I don't have the, the constraints of having a corporate overlord. I can do pretty much what I want when I want. And the truth is I want to use my time wisely, And I think that's one of the things that comes through with a new company is like you are using your time wisely, and people when they decide to play your games are going to have fun. They're not going to have to, I don't know, hunker down for the weekend.
[00:40:46] Terry Redfield: It has time for that anymore. Definitely not me.
[00:40:50] Susan Gold: No, I can't remember the last time. I think Puzzle Quest was the last
[00:40:55] Terry Redfield: Uh, puzzle. Yeah. That's why I'm making this game because [00:41:00] I love Puzzle Quest for that reason.
Wrap-up
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[00:41:01] Susan Gold: All right. I really want to thank you for your time today. I wish we had hours where we could just talk about every little piece of your life in each transition. You have done amazing things. You have been a leader for women and someone that we can all look up to.
[00:41:19] I think you've been a great role model and I think for women in games, you truly have embodied the life you really had all parts of it, the success and the failures, and you thrive
[00:41:37] Terry Redfield: well thank you so much and I really appreciate you capturing all these voices. I
[00:41:41] Susan Gold: well.
[00:41:41] Terry Redfield: very meaningful.
[00:41:43] Susan Gold: I hope. I really hope that it's valuable for everyone. Thank you so much for joining us on the DGJ Podcast and I will see you again soon.
[00:41:53] Terry Redfield: Yeah. Thank
[00:41:53] you.
[00:41:54] Susan Gold: Bye-bye.
Outro
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[00:41:55] Shirley McPhaul: Want to get involved with the G GJ podcast, we'd love to hear from you. [00:42:00] Please send your ideas, suggestions, and questions to ggj pod@globalgamejam.org and tell us who you think we should be talking to next. What stories or issues matter most to you about the future of games, and help us highlight the people and practices that make a sustainable, creative life and games possible.
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