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We all know that choosing a college is one of the biggest investments your family will ever make, but it doesn't have to be the most stressful. Each and every episode, we pull up a virtual chair to cut through the jargon and tackle the real-world questions about admissions and finances and even the financial health and viability of colleges.
Gary D Stocker (00:01.228)
You're listening to Kitchen Table College Chat. Hi everybody, I'm Gary Stocker, back behind the Blue Yeti microphone alongside co-host Mark DeBoer. Mark, we've been off for a couple of weeks. Good to see you again, sir.
Marc (00:10.275)
It's great to see you.
Gary D Stocker (00:14.37)
We all know that, and I guess Mark, that choosing a college is one of the biggest investments that any family will ever make. But here's to my premise, it doesn't have to be the most stressful if you have the right information. And so each and every time you and I get together at the kitchen table college chat, we pull up a virtual chair to cut through the jargon and the tackle and the brochure, the glossy brochure kind of content, and tackle real world questions about admissions.
about finances and even more associated with the college admissions process and even with the entire college experience. And we know Mark from our experiences that these conversations are typically had at something like the kitchen table and thus the name for the podcast. And so Mark, where are we headed today?
Marc (01:07.134)
Yeah, so and you're absolutely right. It's from my perspective. It's like being flies on the wall with the people who are at the kitchen table having the conversation of what does the next part of my education look like? And today we're going to talk about enrollment versus retention, but from the college's perspective or the university's perspective.
Which we should maybe clarify a university is a collection of colleges. But it's for me, I think what people should, maybe they want to know, or maybe they don't know they want to know is, and my question for you is, why do you think college, and this is a very pointed question. Why do you think college is focused so heavily on enrollment instead of retention? Now we can't say all colleges do this.
You know, Harvard's probably not doing it and MIT is probably not doing it, but for the 98 % other colleges, why do think they focus so much on enrollment versus retention?
Gary D Stocker (02:09.324)
Well, as you listen to this podcast, you probably have a job somewhere and you probably are compensated for that job. You generate revenue for the yourself, the family, the grant, whatever. Same for colleges. They focus on enrollment because they need the revenue and the revenue. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. My concern, and I know we're looking at it from the college's perspective, and this is the question I would ask college folks listening to our podcast is,
Are you always focusing on enrolling students who are both financially capable and academically prepared for your college education?
Marc (02:39.426)
That's an interesting point.
That's an interesting point because it's, I struggle with that because should the financial readiness of the student really matter if the academic merit is there, isn't that where financial aid comes into play then?
Gary D Stocker (03:07.138)
Well, certainly it does. And with financial aid for those just getting started in the college selection process, financial aid is almost always an unfunded discount. And again, very few scholarships as a percentage have actual dollars behind them. The Mark and Gary Scholarship for podcast training would be funded, right? You and I would throw a million dollars in the pot and students would get access to that. Most are not like that.
Marc (03:19.138)
Mmm.
Marc (03:30.976)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (03:34.542)
They're the same kind of discounts you and I get on cars and computers and all those kind of things. So the essence of it is, colleges are more than welcome to discount, but that's revenue foregone, and they know this, just to get students in the door. there's, you know, everything operates on the margins. Think back to economics 101. And it's not, you know, I use airline as an example. If your flight is mostly full, 75 % full, it's probably not profitable.
Marc (03:46.324)
Yes.
Marc (03:52.788)
Yeah.
Marc (04:04.223)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (04:04.366)
I remember a story for Southwest Airlines many years ago. They had 239 seats on a flight. They didn't start making money until person 234 got on the plane. And same thing for colleges. They don't start making money. I have no idea what that is for each college, but until certain numbers get in. So they're forced to find students who may or may not be academically and financially capable.
Marc (04:12.851)
Mmm.
Marc (04:18.004)
Yeah.
Marc (04:26.004)
So then is it fair to say, and feel free to challenge back, that a growth at all costs mindset impacts student retention?
Gary D Stocker (04:36.684)
Well, first of all, Mark, I will never push back.
Marc (04:39.105)
no.
Gary D Stocker (04:42.094)
And let me get my tongue out of my cheek there. Sure they are. And you've got businesses you run, I've got a business I run. We look to grow our revenue almost at all costs. Now at some point, there's an ethical consideration. For example, I will never, ever name a college I believe will close. I may tell you, I might tell others, I'm never ever going to do that because it's not my business.
Marc (05:04.711)
Hmm. Yes.
Marc (05:10.867)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (05:10.87)
I will certainly point out college is in trouble and I do it all the time. And I will certainly take them to task without crossing that ethical boundary of saying Mark de Boer University is going to close, bet on it. I will never do that. Same thing for colleges. If they're looking at needing 20 more students, what's that ethical line that they may be crossing?
Marc (05:14.206)
Yep.
Marc (05:23.156)
Yep. Yeah.
Marc (05:35.55)
Hmm. Yeah, it's a really good point. you know, the ethical conversation around should colleges be more transparent with their retention and their graduation rates. And, you know, the challenge is when I look back at my higher education time, looking at graduation rates is a really finicky number because you can play with those numbers. You know, I remember
I remember a, I won't even say the title because a higher up person at a university I worked at would say, well, let's look at graduation rates. And I say, okay, well, here's little Johnny. Johnny's here today. Johnny has a job. Great. All as well. And then we would look at, did they graduate and did it push on? But then if Johnny didn't graduate, but he stayed on for an internship with the university and was still in the university
you know, ecosystem, well, you know, we'll count that towards graduation because he's still here and that doesn't negatively impact the numbers. And all of a sudden the way we're looking at, you know, work study programs and internship programs. And I, and I just say it's black and white. They're here. They received a diploma. They left, but the way they play with numbers, it's just, it's funny business sometimes.
Gary D Stocker (07:02.252)
Yeah, there's been some stories out recently, and I think it was just one yesterday I read, online posts, so take it for what it's worth, that you're hard pressed to find a college website that doesn't cite a graduation rate or some other continuing education in the high 90s percent. And this person was noting that. But they also noted a fact, and I don't remember the exact number, that another company had done research that the greater than 90 percent at almost all colleges is somewhere closer to a mid-60s.
Marc (07:17.692)
Yes!
Gary D Stocker (07:31.214)
percentage of students after six months having a job or continuing their education. is that, the colleges crossing an ethical boundary with their 90 %? Probably not, but they don't define 90%. So it leaves it up to people like you and me to point out to folks listening to this podcast, ask them, how do they define their 90 %?
Marc (07:54.407)
Hmm. mean, and yes. So then I guess the next follow-up question that is, should parents, know, guardians, students, anyone be choosing a college based on graduation rates? Is that a measurable factor?
Gary D Stocker (08:11.542)
Well, I would never choose one on graduation rates, but I would certainly rule them out. And as you and I have talked on this show before, the average for four-year public and private colleges in this country, the average graduation rate after four years is less than 50%. All right, that number in itself is tragic. It is a national embarrassment in my mind.
Marc (08:16.51)
Gary D Stocker (08:35.822)
But there are so many colleges, there many good colleges who have a nice four year rate at 60, 70, 80%. Those are the ones that have systems and processes in place and identify students who are gonna graduate. It's the ones in that 30ish, 40ish percent range that I would consider rolling out because here's a couple things to about. don't have, a couple things to think about. They don't have.
Marc (08:42.611)
Yeah.
Marc (08:52.102)
Okay.
Gary D Stocker (09:02.562)
the systems and processes in place to graduate students. And Mark, don't throw anything at me. They may not be bringing in students who are graduation capable.
Marc (09:04.317)
Ugh.
Marc (09:12.094)
Well, unfortunately we're on different sides of the country, so I can't throw something at you. But if I could, but, but to your point though, you know, I would also, what I would ask you to do now is can you delineate that number of graduation rates, delineate it between public and private, because I know those are two very different rates, but also
Another one that we haven't included and haven't spoken much about is community colleges. I know they have a much different graduation rate. Can you speak to the differences between those?
Gary D Stocker (09:53.198)
Well, even if I could speak to the differences, I would make the point that that's, I'm not going to, I'm not going to answer your question, but I'm going to point to it's the comparisons that matter. So yeah, you mentioned community colleges and their graduation rates are typically in the 20ish percent range, out of 10, but it's an associate's degree. It tends to be a demographic who is going part-time while working and doing other things as well. Nothing wrong with that.
Marc (10:00.701)
Hahaha
Marc (10:06.043)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (10:20.782)
But if you're looking at a community college that graduates 5 % of their students in two years and one that graduates 25%, that's worthy of consideration. Neither are great numbers, but as a comparison, that gives you tool to use. Same with refrigerators, right? Bigger refrigerators versus smaller refrigerators. That gives you a comparison. Do you want a bigger one, a smaller one? Nobody knows, but that's the comparison that really matters here.
Marc (10:38.292)
Yep.
Marc (10:48.549)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. An interesting point. And I'm actually a big proponent of community college, even though I know they have abysmal graduation and persistence rates, because it's a way to find yourself and find your calling and passion for a significantly cheaper price. So go to community college, find your calling. And then when you find it, then transition into a traditional four year college. And I say,
four year, not five year, not six year, a four year. And then hopefully if you did it right, your community college credits will transfer into the four year college so you don't fall behind and then have to pay more.
Gary D Stocker (11:33.964)
Yeah, and let's talk about the find yourself. And if you listen to this podcast and the others that I do this week in college viability that I do each Monday, you might draw the perception that I don't like colleges and that college is not good. That's absolutely not the case. I have written many times and I've got a college viability list of reasons to go to college. And the first one is go to college if you can. College is good, but graduation is better than attending.
And then the third one, think in the document that I have is most colleges will survive. Many will not. But I am a perfect example of college being magnificently valuable. As is my spouse and my children and most, not all of my family relatives. College is good. Really good. Go if you can. But there are too many colleges, Too many colleges.
Marc (12:08.54)
you
Marc (12:14.972)
Yeah, and I agree. You know, I struggle. I have two little ones in the single digits.
Gary D Stocker (12:33.198)
with the number of students who decide they want to go to college.
Marc (12:44.22)
who were years away from college, but having worked in a college for a long time, I really struggle with the idea of do I want them to go to college? But the reason being is because I do not want them or anybody saddled with a hundred thousand dollars in debt. So I agree with you, college is good. College is good if you can afford it, if you can get a good price for it, if they can, to your point, have the tools, the processes, the resources,
to actually graduate you and most importantly, stay cutting edge on everything that's rapidly changing in today's world. You know, it's, to me, it's a really hard pill to swallow when colleges are taking on 18 year olds, 19 year olds right now into a degree or a program that most likely won't exist in four years because of how rapidly business is evolving right now.
Gary D Stocker (13:41.486)
Yeah, yeah. And I think we've talked about this before, but markets, every market adjusts. You know, I think back to Blockbuster, you and I, back in the day, we went to Blockbuster to grab our...
Marc (13:50.959)
Whoa, whoa, my first job ever was at a Blockbuster!
Gary D Stocker (13:56.406)
And how many blockbusters are in existence right now? None, because the market adjusted and you and I are doing this podcast on opposite ends of the country for the most part, using technology that didn't exist when Blockbuster was around. And that's the same thing with higher education. Markets are adjusting. This higher education market is adjusting. And yes, there are negative consequences since you and I last chatted. There were two colleges that announced their closure.
and one that just kind of fudged it by calling it a way to claim bankruptcy instead of closing. And so that's going to continue to happen because this market is adjusting. So the moms and dads, to the grandpas and grandmas, the aunts and uncles, the students, and others listening to this show, do your homework. And you may have to do homework you've not done before, historically done before when looking for colleges. You need to look at the financial health of colleges, and we have tools to do that. And one of the things Mark mentioned a minute ago, look at the graduation rates.
because if they're low for the college, it's going to be tougher for your student no matter what their capacity for learning to graduate also.
Marc (15:01.412)
Yeah, you know, I have a bunch of follow up questions on what you just said, but I want to stay on topic. Because then I'll just say very easily and we're not going to go into it because it'll be a deviation. But, you know, colleges.
almost never innovate. And I say that because the model of the professor, which is to profess, therefore to lecture to a class has been the same model since what? Year, year 542. So the innovation in the way in which we transfer knowledge, which is I will lecture to you and you will learn it.
Gary D Stocker (15:28.974)
1100. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc (15:43.195)
I think could use a little innovation there. But maybe a podcast, maybe the next podcast. But I do want to go back to retention rates because I think it's a really valuable topic that everyone can learn more about. So, kind of diving into it, when you look at retention data and you see it every day, what are the biggest red flags that are standing out to you when you're seeing retention data that the normal consumer
probably isn't looking at and saying, whoa, that's a major glaring red.
Gary D Stocker (16:19.832)
Hot holes.
Marc (16:23.235)
Interesting.
Gary D Stocker (16:24.214)
I got you to pause on that one, I? And here's why. And of course, I'm trying to make a point, being somewhat dramatic to do that. Colleges with financial trouble, public and private, tend to not invest in what's called capital. The buildings, the parking lots, the infrastructure, the IT, the versions of software, the hardware, they tend not to invest in that. So one of things that students and their families want to look at when they're looking at colleges,
Marc (16:41.785)
it's
Gary D Stocker (16:53.694)
is are there potholes, just for example, right, mold on the walls, holes in the ceilings, whatever. And your question was for the retention piece.
Marc (17:03.012)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (17:04.792)
Well, if I choose a college and I didn't really pay attention to the holes in the parking lot and I'm there for a period of time and I see too much
Bad infrastructure, I'll call it that. You know what, that's not like home. Home was always warm, the roof didn't leak, and know, dad always mowed the grass, and mom always put flowers in the front yard. And so there's a tendency to look at the physical infrastructure and say, you know what, this isn't for me. Now I understand that there will be academic components to this as well, but your question was something folks need to think about, and it's potholes.
Marc (17:45.21)
Yeah, that's, that's a very interesting one. but you are absolutely right though, relative to the physical infrastructure of it. you know, and I think, you know, for me, I would say a red flag in retention data is don't look at the university data. Don't look at the college data, look at the program at which you're attending because the retention data might be strong.
But if you can have a school really dive down and say, you know what, just look at the business school, just look at the marketing program in the business school. I don't really care that you're retaining all the athletes and the fraternity students. If my student has no intention of being an athlete and no intention of being a Greek student, you know, it's ensuring, you know, I used to always look at retention data, know, athlete data, always strong relative to retention. Cause there's a support system there. The fraternities have a support system, but for the, for the students.
Gary D Stocker (18:39.276)
Yep. Yep.
Marc (18:43.437)
who are involved in little to nothing, those were the biggest at-risk students. So it's really knowing your student, knowing who they will be at that college, to say, is there a support system in place if they're not X, Y, and Z?
Gary D Stocker (19:01.166)
And what is involved in a support system, Cash, dollars to be able to support the needs of a diverse set of students. And that's why to go back to your sports and fraternity sorority example, that system's already in place. But if I go and I'm having trouble understanding the difference between a white blood cell and red blood cell, I need a tutor, somebody has to be paid to show me what the difference between a white blood cell and red blood cell is.
Marc (19:11.522)
Yes. Yeah.
Marc (19:16.344)
Yep.
Marc (19:27.777)
Yeah, exactly. And then of course, the next question up to that is, is where's that cash coming from? And, you know, is it coming from tuition dollars, endowment dollars or debt? And understanding the mix of that, but you know, actually interesting, and I don't even know the answer. Does the data that you provide, through college viability, does it show that difference of where that cash is coming from?
Gary D Stocker (19:54.36)
There are four ratios that IPEDS, which is data that comes from the National Center for Education Systems, provides. One is dollars invested in academics, dollars invested in institutions, this is per student, dollars invested in support systems, which answers our question, and dollars invested in instruction, which supports the academic role. So when I look at those four, and we can look at this,
Marc (20:13.238)
Yep.
Gary D Stocker (20:24.236)
the dollars invested per FTE student, which is a standardized measure, and see which ones are higher or lower. More importantly, you get the comparison comes into play there, but more importantly, we can watch the trends because we track that data for eight years. And if it shows a consistent decrease in the dollars a college is spending per student, that's a nice measure to see, they can't afford to pay somebody to show me the difference between a white blood cell and a red blood cell.
Marc (20:27.447)
Yep.
Marc (20:32.056)
Thank
Marc (20:37.512)
Mm.
Marc (20:42.422)
Yep.
Marc (20:52.568)
interesting. Interesting. It would be so, maybe you can see it already. It would be so great to see where colleges are spending that money that is coming in and seeing if it is around student outcomes as opposed to athletics or things of that nature. mean, can you see that red data?
Gary D Stocker (21:17.262)
Well, sure. And how many times, have you and I heard or read about complaints, concerns that colleges are hiring more non-academic staff, more management or institutional staff than they are faculty? Well, this ratio, institutional expenses per FTE, there are times when I look at that number and so this year will be from 2017 to 2024, the last available data.
Marc (21:30.048)
Yes.
Gary D Stocker (21:45.614)
that number will have jumped up a few thousand dollars per student on the institutional side and staying flat or increased a lot less on the academic and instruction side. So yes, it always goes back to the data. How many folks that listen to this podcast recognize that there is a measure out there to show whether your college is spending more on management or instruction? I bet the number is really, really small. And that's one of the many reasons college viability exists.
Marc (21:50.399)
Yeah.
Gary D Stocker (22:13.72)
to point out and have conversations like this to say, hey, the data exists. We are kind of like the Consumer Reports for colleges. We're kind of like the Kelly Blue Book. Kelly kicks the tires on cars. We kick the financial health of colleges. And that's what we do. And as the market adjusts, college viability will be a big part of it because we're providing the data that both consumers need, students and their families, and that colleges...
Marc (22:18.74)
Okay.
Gary D Stocker (22:40.898)
have access to, but of course they're not going to share the bad data. And I can't argue with that. It's not the best business model, but that's way it is and that's why I'm here.
Marc (22:42.072)
Yeah. You know, and if, if our listeners were to look, you would see an alarming trend across the nation of all colleges and universities of the higher, the upper end administrative employees rapidly growing that colleges are adding a lot more to them. And these are people being paid.
$200, $300 plus thousand dollars a year. And it really makes me wonder what is the value being added? And one of the things I used to always tell people is, when you go to an open house, look at how many upper higher administrative speakers there are. You're going to have the president speak, then you're going to have the dean speak, then you're going to have the provost speak. And then it's like, on a second. How many of these people do I really need to listen to?
Gary D Stocker (23:35.352)
Yeah, right.
Marc (23:35.767)
And they're just rolling out their entire administrative team. it's, it's, know, where your tuition dollars going. And to your point, is it going to the potholes? Is it going to the aging residence hall? Or is it going to the bloated administrative staff to that college?
Gary D Stocker (23:55.286)
Yeah, we tell our children all the time, decisions have consequences, right? And colleges, where the same rule applies, they're making decisions to invest in administrative compensation. That's fine, but that has consequences, and they're not always positive consequences.
Marc (23:59.414)
Mm-hmm.
Marc (24:11.83)
Yeah, yeah. So here's another question for you again, bringing it back to retention. If I were a parent and I wanted to learn more about this, you know, whether it's beyond my open house tour or whatever, who do you think, who's your opinion? And there's no right answer here. Who is the actual person responsible for retention on a campus? Person, persons, department, people, et cetera.
Gary D Stocker (24:35.519)
asking me tough questions.
Marc (24:37.109)
That is a tough one.
Gary D Stocker (24:39.48)
You know, let me try another pothole response. I'm going to offer the Gary Stocker opinion. It's the faculty.
Marc (24:47.637)
you would say the faculty.
Gary D Stocker (24:51.488)
If you've got good teachers, they're going to more likely keep students than if you've got teachers who are mailing it in, so to speak. And there's a concern. There's a gerontology concern in higher education that too many, too high of a percentage of faculty are just mailing it in. Not everyone, for sure. But the gerontology issue is one that is out there. And I've seen colleges where they can start their own geriatric ward for the faculty because that's
Marc (25:05.813)
.
Gary D Stocker (25:17.282)
That's what the average age is. And nothing wrong with that. They can make those decisions. But Mark, like I just said, decisions have consequences.
Marc (25:21.717)
Correct.
Marc (25:36.629)
Oh, there we go. one of the, one of the things that we haven't spoken about, which maybe is a topic for another time is tenure reform and the idea of pushing colleges to really think and talk about tenure reform. But I think you're absolutely right here. And I think most people would probably say the faculty are the
gatekeepers of retention. I think some people would say it's student affairs because student affairs is overseeing, you know, disability support, academic support, the residence halls, career development, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know if there's a right answer. It is too hard of a question, but
Gary D Stocker (26:27.33)
Well, this late in the podcast, you're wrong for the first time. All right, you've been right. And here's why you're wrong. Here's why you're wrong. Students don't have to see student support services. They have to see, they almost have, almost certainly I hope, have to see faculty.
Marc (26:31.91)
Marc (26:44.052)
Yep. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And yes, it's, and that's why it's so important for colleges and universities to empower their faculty with data. And as an example, one of the things I used to do is I used to work with faculty showing them, are going to be the students in your classes this semester. Here's who lives on campus. Here's who doesn't. Here's an athlete. Here's who's not.
Here's the one who somewhere we believe is at risk for whatever X, Y, Z reason. And if you empower your faculty with data, you are correct. They are the ones who are seeing them more often than not. And then also can return that data to people like me and say, Hey, Johnny didn't show up to class this week. Now he's more at risk. Johnny have failed his last two tests. So how can we have better intervention?
to save Johnny and say, what's going on, to actually improve our persistence and improve our retention, which in turn improves graduation rates.
Gary D Stocker (27:49.71)
Well, as we wrap this show up, first of all, I want to note the fact that you just said moments ago that I was correct. I'll make sure to highlight that. the retention has been the essence of the topic today. And we haven't talked about, as we wrap this up, what students are bringing into college in the first year. And they're bringing that background information from all over the media that colleges aren't what they used to be. I'm being nice.
Marc (27:56.948)
For the record!
Gary D Stocker (28:19.448)
colleges aren't what they used to be. And that, that news baggage, for knock off a better phrase, that news baggage also has to be considered as one of the waiting factors that students consider as they're having a bad experience. They start that freshman, sophomore, junior year, whatever, and things aren't going well, you know, pulling the rip cord on that parachute ain't that tough. And so that's, that's, it's not just the college experience. It's the, the, the cultural,
Marc (28:36.435)
.
Gary D Stocker (28:48.78)
view right or wrong, cultural view of where higher education is today,
Marc (28:54.213)
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And we haven't covered that topic, but I think maybe, you know, one of our next episodes, we should really tackle the topic of what college used to look back, look like maybe 30 years ago, what college looked like 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and really what college looks like today because
The 18 year olds of today entering college see college very differently than you and I did. And some of their opinions are wrong and a lot of their opinions are right. And really what it comes down to are how are colleges and universities listening to this new incoming demographic and adjusting their product accordingly? And the answer is not adding lazy rivers.
and adding bouncy houses and foam parties. Unfortunately, there are colleges doing that. That's not the answer. So again, back to the original topic of innovating and how our college is doing that. That's an interesting topic for another time.
Gary D Stocker (29:57.358)
It sure is. And so Mark, let's call that a wrap for this show, for this episode of the Kitchen Table College Chats. And for those listening in the coming probably months, we're going to move this to live stream. We want to make this a show where folks can jump on live and say, Gary, you're Mark, Mark, you're wrong. Or some version of that. And so thanks for making time to listen to the podcast. We appreciate your feedback. If you have some.
Marc (30:15.581)
What?
Gary D Stocker (30:27.47)
Good, bad, or indifferent, drop me a note to Gary at College Viability. That's College Viability, one long word. Gary at CollegeViability.com. So for Mark DeBoer, I'm Gary Stocker. Thanks for making time to listen to Kitchentable College Chats.