Outsiders Within: Korean adoptees Jane Jeong Trenka and Ami Nafzger share their stories.

Show Notes

“I may not be able to find my family but it always made me feel a step closer to help others.” OUTSIDERS WITHIN is a landmark publication that explores transracial adoption and the heavy emotional and cultural toll on those who directly experience it. The volume has many contributors who explore transracial adoption through essays, fiction, poetry, and art. OUTSIDERS WITHIN is coedited by Jane Jeong Trenka, Julia Chinyere Oparah, and Sun Yung Shin. This episode features Trenka in conversation with Ami Nafzger. Jane Jeong Trenka was adopted from South Korea to Minnesota. She holds a master of public administration from Seoul National University and was instrumental in revising Korea’s adoption law in 2011. She is author of THE LANGUAGE OF BLOOD and FUGITIVE VISIONS and coauthor of CHILD-SELLING COUNTRY (in Korean) with Kihye Jeon Hong and Kyung-eun Lee. She lives in Korea. Ami Inja Nafzger (aka Jin Inja) was adopted from Cheonju, South Korea, at the age of four and grew up in Wisconsin. She attended Augsburg College in Minnesota, graduating in social work, sociology, and Native American Indian studies. She founded Global Overseas Adoptees’ Link (GOA’L) in 1997. Nafzger is founder, president, and CEO of Adoptee Hub and works for the Department of Human Services (DHS) State of Minnesota as a Planning Director in the Business Integration Division for Children and Family Services. LINKS: Outsiders Within: z.umn.edu/outsiderswithin Adoptee Hub: https://www.adopteehub.org/ G.O.A’.L.: Global Overseas Adoptees’ Link: https://goal.or.kr/

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Ami Nafzger: 00:05

For the adopted community, I think that there has been, a lot of pain. There's a lot of problems and issues that need to be addressed such as deportation, depression, suicide, identity issues. That includes, you know, just trying to find your birth family and, just learning about who you are and trying to feel a sense of belonging within your own environment. It has been seventy years since Korean adoption has started, and yet still there is no services here in The U. S.

Ami Nafzger: 00:38

That can actually address these issues for adult adoptees.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 00:46

Hello, everybody. My name is Jane Jung Tranca. I was born in Seoul, South Korea, and I live here now. But in between there, I was adopted to Frazee, Minnesota. Some people know me in the adoption community from, the book Outsiders Within, which is in its second edition from University of Minnesota Press now, and, some other people might know me from Language of Blood or Future Divisions, which are memoirs that I wrote about my adoption.

Ami Nafzger: 01:13

My name is Amy Nosker. I am a Korean adoptee, and I was adopted to The United States, lived in Wisconsin until high school. In college, that's when I discovered that I was, Korean adoptee. And after that, I went back to, Korea to live for some time. And then now I've, returned back in 02/2003, and I've been here residing in The States.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 01:40

I'm so pleased to talk with you, Amy, because we're both Augsburg graduates.

Ami Nafzger: 01:44

Well, Jane, I have to say that I am actually also I was also very honored to actually be in your book with, Outsiders Within. And so I just wanna say that I'm I have been a personal fan of yours. And, I think it's pretty ironic how you and I were both went to Oxford College. And I just remember the first time I met you. Actually, I it wasn't even a meeting.

Ami Nafzger: 02:07

I remember the first time I literally saw you, we were both on the same dormitory floor in Ernest Hall. And I think you and I both walked out of our dormitory rooms, and we both saw each other down the hallway. I think we both just turned around and went the other way because we didn't know what to do when we saw each other. And I'll never forget that. Oh, right.

Ami Nafzger: 02:30

It's pretty funny.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 02:31

Yeah. I think it's just really so we are both in our very late forties. Right?

Ami Nafzger: 02:36

Yes.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 02:37

And I'm just, you know, just kinda thinking about life. Like, this is, like, really I mean, like, I was I was so, honored to have you contribute to Outsiders Within and in the first edition, I knew about what you were doing and so forth and, you know, like, life keeps going and I can kinda see, like, how your life is unfolding. And I just think it's really amazing. And it's so crazy that we were both at Augsburg in Ursa on the Sixth Floor sharing a bathroom. And I I remember I remember when I saw you too because you had this, like, really cool black leather jacket.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 03:11

Yeah?

Ami Nafzger: 03:12

Oh, I don't remember that.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 03:14

You did. You had the coolest black leather jacket and you had cool friends. And you were so cooperative, and you were all up in the Asian American, group, right, with with Liefen Benson?

Ami Nafzger: 03:27

Yes. I had just joined because she had chased me down my freshman year and sophomore year, and it was junior was when I started to get really heavily involved. But I also did the same thing to Li Hoon when I first met her or in the hallway, and she kept on chasing me down. And I I was scared when I saw another Asian face, and I turned around and ran the other way.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 03:51

So how did you come around to, deciding that you're gonna be involved in that?

Ami Nafzger: 03:56

Because I think Lee Hoon was so persistent, and she just she knew my name, and she just kept on she just she literally chased me down the hall saying, Amy, Amy, are you Amy? And I was like, who is this lady? And so she was so persistent with me every single year, and I finally just one day stopped and said, okay. I'm just gonna have enough guts to talk to this to this lady who looks like me. And so I did, and she was the one that really made me feel like it was okay to talk to her and to other people that looked like me.

Ami Nafzger: 04:31

And she was the one that made me feel comfortable and realized that there are other people that looks like me. And then when she addressed the fact that I was an adoptee, which I never really ever talked about or actually, was okay with. She then started to introduce me and telling me that it's really important that I should someday try to learn about being Korean, where I came from, and meeting other Koreans to learn about it. And so I thought about it for a while, and that was probably, I feel like, where I started to do my, search for who I really was. Because of her, I think she really, really changed my life and opened up my mind.

Ami Nafzger: 05:13

And so after college is when I decided to go back to Korea, and I did. And when I went back to Korea, I didn't have anything here in The US that was holding me back. And I just felt, I guess I just felt very alone and very confused. And so I decided just to go back to the to Korea, and I picked up everything. And when I went to Korea, I went there with $200 in my pocket.

Ami Nafzger: 05:42

You're so brave. Applied. And, I didn't know what I was doing. I had a friend that actually told me about she was a Korean adoptive mother. She had told me about this article or showed me this article and encouraged me to apply to get a job in when I went to Korea, and I did.

Ami Nafzger: 06:03

And it was teaching English, and I did that. So that was, I think it's it's something I'll never ever would wanna change. It's it was all about my adoption journey, and I'm really glad I did that.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 06:17

Wow. So you tell the story in the book about the trouble that happened to you in Gumi. Do you wanna go about that?

Ami Nafzger: 06:26

Sure. I can't remember exactly what I said in the book, but, so just to kind of backtrack from Gumi because it because it kinda started out how I got to Gumi. When I arrived and so I was just sharing with you when I left for Korea. I got on the airplane. I it was a long flight.

Ami Nafzger: 06:46

I didn't really know what I was doing. I wasn't really prepared. I didn't know what to expect. I think it was. I was 25 years old.

Ami Nafzger: 06:52

I was pretty young. 24. I was pretty young. And, when I got there, I was expecting to meet a person that I thought I had arranged to pick me up and go and live in Incheon and to, teach English at a hagwon, which is called a language center. So I thought I had done the right things.

Ami Nafzger: 07:13

I had arranged everything. I had done the paperwork for it. I applied with the hagwon. And when I arrived at the airport, nobody nobody was there to pick me up. And I just kinda panicked for a little bit.

Ami Nafzger: 07:28

And I was actually, I ended up somehow I don't know, you know, and some of this is such a blur now because I don't know what I did. I think I must have stayed at some hotel outside of the airport because nobody picked me up for it was, like, two or three days, I think. And I ended up trying to call them and call them, and I was panicking and freaking out because I didn't know what to do. I didn't know a single person in Korea. I didn't know the language.

Ami Nafzger: 07:54

I didn't know anything about Korea. And so then they finally came and picked me up, this man who and then when he picked me up, he was the guy that I had actually arranged made my arrangements. He apologized. In my arrangements before I came to Korea, I was told that I was gonna be staying with because I was given an option. Do I wanna stay in an apartment with other English teachers, or do I want to stay in a Korean family home with, mother, father, and two children to learn about Korea?

Ami Nafzger: 08:26

And I chose the the later option to actually, be in a homestay with the families so I could actually really learn and embrace about the Korean culture and family. When this gentleman or man, I should say, not even a gentleman. When he was bringing me to his home, because I, I I asked him about his wife and children, and he said in the car as we were driving to his home that he's actually not married. And he has no children and that he was just living with his mother. And I was kinda freaked out, and I was I didn't know what and I said, but I thought you said that, you know, because we had these conversations.

Ami Nafzger: 09:06

And this is what you had wrote me in an email saying that you were married and you had two children. And he said no. And so I said, well, what am I supposed to do? And he's like, well, you are still gonna be teaching for me. I have children that come and you'll be doing a lot of private classes and you'll also be teaching at the language institute.

Ami Nafzger: 09:27

So I said, okay. But it actually didn't really turn out that way. And so he first said you know, the first couple days, he didn't bring me to the language institute. And and then I kept on asking, what should I do? And then, you know, when I met his mother, she didn't speak a word of English, but she just she didn't talk to me either.

Ami Nafzger: 09:48

She wasn't she has she wasn't welcome welcoming or friendly and just never she never talked to me. It was an apartment, three bedrooms, and so I did have my own bedroom. And so finally, he, I just kept on asking and I was kind of, I wasn't persistent, but maybe I was, you know, because I was also very shy at that time too. I kept on asking, and he finally brought me to the language institute. I met the other English teachers, and that's when I just thought and I met the director, and I thought, oh my goodness.

Ami Nafzger: 10:21

I wish I was here now, you know, with these other teachers because this something's not right. I felt very uncomfortable in the whole situation. And so when I felt very uncomfortable, I expressed that to him, and I just kept on saying that I don't feel comfortable. Well, he told me that if I want to, then I can just teach there. So I said, okay.

Ami Nafzger: 10:42

Well, can you show me how to get there from your from your home? And he said and so he says, well, here's the address. And and this time, I mean, I was brand new to Korea, so I didn't know how to read Korea. And he said, well, here's the address. You'll here's the bus, and you'll just have to listen to the stop.

Ami Nafzger: 10:59

And I thought, well, I don't know what this means. I don't know where the stop is. And so I did I took the bus, but I had no idea where I was. Everything looked exactly the same. I was, finally, I went up to this woman and when I was on the bus because the bus just kept on driving and driving and driving.

Ami Nafzger: 11:18

She took my hand and she brought me around and she brought me to the languages too. And I got I arrived to the hagwon and I expressed how uncomfortable I felt. When I expressed myself to the, Hong Kong director, he just said, you know, just take time and, you know, mister Kim is a good guy, you know, and so, you'll be fine. Three months had gone by, and at that time, I would receive letters, apparently from my family, my my siblings, and some of my friends, but I didn't know it. And then my brothers and sisters started calling, and I had no idea that they were calling.

Ami Nafzger: 11:55

And so, apparently, I found out later when the phone rang that my brother all of a sudden, my brother, mister Kim said, Amy, the phone is for you. And I said, oh. And so I answered the phone and my brother Paul was just a little I think he was extremely worried and so was my sister because they were wondering what happened to me. And I and I thought, what do you mean? And I and I said, I'm sorry I haven't called you.

Ami Nafzger: 12:17

And they said, no. We've been trying to call you. But mister Kim said that he was going to let you know that we've been calling, and we've also sent mail. And I was not receiving the phone calls or mail. And so I'd asked mister Kim about it.

Ami Nafzger: 12:29

He he did admit it. And, that's when he started telling me that he wanted me he told me that he actually brought me there because he he saw my picture and because Koreans are really big on pictures of people and image as Jane, as you know. And he said that he wanted me to be his he brought me over because he wanted me to be his concubine and he wanted me to be his wife. And I was obviously very young at the time, and he was in his forties. I think he was, like, 42 or something like that.

Ami Nafzger: 13:03

And I was totally freaked out. And it was very uncomfortable, and that's when I just, I guess, I I I I I knew this was not a good place for me. And so I told him that I did not wanna be there, and then he threatened to just deport me from Korea. And so I was devastated because I had barely gotten to know Korea at that time, I felt, because I, you know, I was sitting here trying to navigate my my environment, trying to make sure that I was in a safe place. I knew there there was something not right, and I was trying to I was trying to trust the process, and it didn't feel good to me.

Ami Nafzger: 13:45

And so I went back to the director, and the director said fine. And so he brought he told me he had a friend in Gumi, which is, a smaller town south of Seoul. And so I said that's fine. I will go there. And so he had a friend there.

Ami Nafzger: 14:01

And when I was brought to Gumi, I went there and it was his friend and he was a hagwon director. Well, this director was very kind, but you could tell he would bring me to the different government agencies and have them a very large wad of money. And he would say, Look, I'm bribing them. And very proud of it, by the way. Look, I'm bribing the government officials so you can stay here in the country.

Ami Nafzger: 14:26

And so, that's I was a little shocked because I was learning, a side of Korean culture that I did not expect to learn very quickly. And so I I I didn't fully understand what was going on at first, and I was just like, I figured it out afterwards. And there was, so I was teaching in this his name was also mister Kim. And so I was teaching in his hagwon, and there were many Korean, native Korean teachers as well teaching. And then there was one Canadian teacher, and he was a male.

Ami Nafzger: 15:05

His name was Todd. Well, the Canadian male teacher, who was white, was very, very he was very favored by mister Kim. As I was teaching, I was I had to teach all of the all the, factories. So it was all the engineers that put together our phones and iPads or not iPads, I should say. Phones and tablets and and well, at that time, it was beepers and and so on.

Ami Nafzger: 15:33

So they're the ones that, the engineers from Samsung and LG, the electronic companies that I had to teach. And I had some great students, but that's when four months down the road well well, between those four months, I had been working there. The first month I got paid, and then after that, we did not get paid and for several months, and the teachers were upset. And and in Korea, as Jane would know, that you only get paid once a month. And so and a very large lump sum.

Ami Nafzger: 16:07

And so one of my students, who no longer became a was a student of mine, had actually liked me and asked me out on a date, went on a date with him, and then he, found out about how we were not getting paid for several months, and then he went to the director and demanded for me to get paid. And then, by that time, I was just so I I just was not trusting the process and enjoying my life in Korea because I was trying so hard to try to fit in. I had so many comments on how, you know, from students, you know, how I should be Korean, that I am Korean, but don't tell anybody that I'm an adoptee. And just so many different, things that I was experiencing in Korea. Really trying to fit in and trying to figure out who I am and what my life would have been like if I would have lived in Korea and never been adopted.

Ami Nafzger: 17:04

That was where I was experiencing for several years. And so I ended up staying at Gumi for about a good year, a little over a year. But during that time, I had I would have to say, made the mistake by getting engaged to this Korean man who helped me try to get paid. And, I made a mistake because I was just so alone, and I was so confused of who I was and trying to fit in and trying to have anybody accept me because I felt like everything was always my fault. And so I did that.

Ami Nafzger: 17:38

And so when I was engaged to him, I moved in to an apartment, but then it was not a good, decision of mine. And he became very, very he would he would he would I never saw him. He would be working all day long, and then he didn't want me to work at all. And I wanted to teach because I was I was in a small town, so I was bored out of my mind. And I had no one to talk to.

Ami Nafzger: 18:03

But he wouldn't let me teach, and then he would bring his mom and brother over. And and they would want me to cook and clean for them all day long. And it was just, it was not a good fit for me. It was not me. And so that's when I started to visit Seoul.

Ami Nafzger: 18:24

And I I visited Seoul every single weekend. I would leave, you know, right, after work on Friday, and I would would return on Sundays because my the man that I was engaged to was never home anyway. He was almost out drinking on business trips or whatever. And, so that's when I started meeting a lot of Korean adoptees, and I discovered that there were adoptees that were going through not the same exact situation, but similar situations as I am trying to find and navigate Korea on our own. And so that's when I felt like that there needed to be something in Korea to help adoptees, because I knew I wasn't the only one there or I wasn't the only adoptee that was gonna return back to Korea and do the same thing to do some soul searching or to just go back to Korea to do for various reasons.

Ami Nafzger: 19:17

And so that's when I started doing the paperwork and writing up a lot of ways, goals, mission, kind of like a business plan of how I think that there should be a nonprofit built in Korea for adoptees to assist them. So I did that. I started that in, '96. And then '97, I really started, you know, providing this paperwork to and then I met some government officials in Korea in Seoul, and that's when I started working with them. And I tried meeting some adoptees, a lot of adoptees.

Ami Nafzger: 19:51

It was so much convincing just for them to even join a meeting. It was like begging people to join. And that's when I realized that adoptees were just also not feeling very stable. Not so I don't you know, not mentally. It was more about the physical piece and the the the the job wise.

Ami Nafzger: 20:10

Because at that time, the f four visa, there was not a visa for adoptees to be able to stay in Korea. So we had to leave the country every three months. I went to Fukuoka, Japan a lot. I did end up going to America and and Europe a few times too during during those times I had to renew my visa. So even though that I had, a contract with the HAVORNE, it wasn't always very stable, and there were times that I had to leave the country.

Ami Nafzger: 20:39

And so, yes, it wasn't, and it was because we were known as foreigners. So it was hard it was hard to digest for me to know that I was a foreigner and, I because I didn't feel like a foreigner there. I felt like it was my my birth country. It was my motherland. It was it was a place that I felt like I should belong, I should be old.

Ami Nafzger: 21:02

But in reality, that was not the case. And so in '98, I was able to find several adoptees literally begging them to come at to a meeting and join me to hear about what we could do. We had one meeting, and, unfortunately, there was a lot of in fighting amongst adoptees. I didn't even know who I have some adoptees, and I was very confused. Because I had never seen you know, I had never I I was not aware.

Ami Nafzger: 21:27

Someone said that there's always fighting with adoptives, but, I was not aware of that and I didn't I I guess I didn't believe it. But there was actually even an actual physical fight as well.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 21:37

That's legendary now. It wasn't even there, but I heard about it.

Ami Nafzger: 21:41

It was between a man and a woman. I was, like, shocked. I was like, oh my gosh. It was between this American guy and this European woman, and I was just like, woah. It was and so I had never seen that.

Ami Nafzger: 21:55

Yeah. So it it was it was interesting to and that was really a good introduction of the creative adoptive community for me as well, you know, because I wasn't really I just all all I wanted to do was create this organization.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 22:10

So you're just trying to do something.

Ami Nafzger: 22:14

It was interesting. So I was like, oh, okay. I didn't know how to take that, but, I tried to stay out of it as much as I could. So they all fled right away after the first meeting. There were a couple Dauthies that stayed behind, you know, they and it was me really, literally begging them to.

Ami Nafzger: 22:31

And then what happened was I ended up getting somehow I I had some Korean friends and they got me an interview with, a couple newspapers such as JoongAng Eobo, and it was a pretty powerful, article. And then, some, TV documentaries that had happened. And then from there, a lot of Koreans came and joined and wanted to help. It was it was amazing because I had several hundred phone calls to navigate and a lot of, Koreans that were willing to just be there and help get the organization started. And that's when I just kinda settled with native Koreans to help with this mission.

Ami Nafzger: 23:10

And then when adoptees came and joined, I would have them join if they could, and that's how the backbone, goal actually started. Because of the many, many hundreds, I'd have to say a good 600 volunteers made of Korean to help, with this effort in the very beginning and sustain and help me sustain it for the first, I would have to say, six, seven years. That's that's how GOL has become very, very sustainable. We did a lot of great things. We had some tours.

Ami Nafzger: 23:42

We held several conferences, international conferences for adoptees in Korea and, a lot of birth searches, translation, homestays, language classes, cultural classes. And it was not just Korean adoptees from The US. It was, from, Europe and, Australia and Canada. So it was very, very well received.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 24:03

Well, I wanna thank you so much for laying that groundwork because it's been really important to my life to have the f four visa. So for people who don't know about the f four visa, that's the visa that is almost as good as citizenship. So we don't have to have, our our visa stay isn't connected to our job, and we don't have to, like, go and run to Japan. But, you know, like, basically, we can live here. Right?

Jane Jeong Trenka: 24:26

So do do you wanna talk a little bit more about, like, that that, process to get adoptees included for f four visa?

Ami Nafzger: 24:34

Well, the f four visa has changed quite a bit. The process has. Because when we first worked with the Korean government on it, they didn't have a whole lot of regulations around it. And it was just a new visa at first where they it was going to be open not just for Korean adoptees, but also for Korean, I would have to say Korean immigrants around the world, excluding China and Vietnamese Koreans. That was what the understanding when it first came out.

Ami Nafzger: 25:02

I know there's a lot of protests around that, several years after, and then I did not I have not kept up with that to see where that that piece is at. But for a lot of Korean Americans or Australian Korean, Canadian Korean, and so on, a lot of, Korean immigrants, if they can prove or Korean adoptees, if they can prove that they are Korean, they are able to obtain this f four visa. The f four visa basically was created to allow you to stay in Korea for the first two years without having to leave the country. And if you wanted to renew your visa, you can renew it also without having to leave the country. So that has been just amazing.

Ami Nafzger: 25:48

It saved me a lot of money in the end. And I'm sure a lot of adoptees also Because I think one of the things, it just it wasn't a welcoming environment as well. Because I'm sure there are a lot of even overseas Koreans that weren't adopted felt like that they the younger generation would wanna stay in Korea, but they could not as well because we were foreigners. So that process was just very simple and easy. We just had to go to the adoption agency and get a certificate proving that we were adopted from the adoption agency.

Ami Nafzger: 26:17

And, so we had to prove right our paperwork and make an appointment with the adoption agency. You still have to do that today. However, though, I know there are a lot more regulations around that. And GOAL, who's actually been very at the forefront and has been, I think they've handled, in providing this information and helping adopt these when they come to Korea still today to actually they actually help assist, with some of that paperwork. There are certain things though when they did create this visa saying that if you stay in Korea, there's certain jobs you cannot hold and you should not be doing.

Ami Nafzger: 26:53

And those were they kept on saying the three d's. It was like they did not want you to do a dirty job, a dangerous job, and a Difficult. But, yes, a difficult job. There we go. So, yes, we kept the same as three d's.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 27:08

I lived here for fifteen years on that visa, and then I got my citizenship. So

Ami Nafzger: 27:12

The dual citizenship? Yeah. That's great.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 27:16

And thank you. Thank you to, all the people who worked at Gold because that came true because of Adopti Activism and pastor Kim at, you know, continuously working with us. So I'm benefiting a lot from my work. Thank you.

Ami Nafzger: 27:31

Well, that's what it's supposed to do, though. It was supposed to provide some kind of rights for I felt like it was a right for adoptees, you know, just provide some kind of rights and advocacy for adoptees, especially if they're in trouble by the law or if they just need a phone. I mean, that was, like, some of the basic, simplest things is to try to get a phone. I always had to have a native Korean sponsor me so I could have a phone in Korea. That was very frustrating.

Ami Nafzger: 27:59

So, just the small, simplest things that you thought or we take for granted, those are things we could not have or not allowed to have in Korea.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 28:09

So you built this incredible organization, and you built a lot of infrastructure and helped out a lot of people, and then you left. So what made you decide that you were gonna leave?

Ami Nafzger: 28:19

I think when I went back to crew when I went back to The States, something opened out my eye, and I realized I didn't wanna teach English for the rest of my life. And I just and I had not really built a career in The US to to come to Korea and say, hey, I'm a I'm a PR director, or I have experience in, you know, HR or whatever, you know, or in social work. And so I taught English. I I worked full time, and I built Go on the side as a volunteer the entire time I was there. In America, to be able to work off of that in Korea, you know, because I know a lot of adoptees now are able to come to Korea.

Ami Nafzger: 29:03

They build it. They were smart. They built a career in The US and then came over to Korea and was able to do something. Or maybe they were just all smarter than me. That also is probably possible.

Ami Nafzger: 29:13

But but, I just, so I was just because I like I said, I came out right after college. I went back to Korea, and I had no job experience except just teaching English. That was probably one of the reasons why. Also, I think it's just because my my brother had, by that time, he had three children, and they were very young. And my sister had children, and I just wanted to I saw myself every year missing out.

Ami Nafzger: 29:41

So, I think that's what I that's what really triggered me to actually come back to The States is just to be with my family and getting to know them.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 29:50

And in The United States, you created AdoptiHub. So can you tell a little bit about that?

Ami Nafzger: 29:56

Well, actually, I didn't create AdoptiHub right away. So I had came back to Korea or back to The US in 02/2003, and I have to say I struggled a lot coming back to The US. It was literally I had no credit because I was gone for more. I was gone for a long time. I had to build a credit.

Ami Nafzger: 30:15

I couldn't even rent an apartment because I had no credit. It took me a good five years to actually settle back down here in The US, trying to figure out how to build a credit, how to find a job, how to understand the American market or job market, trying to figure out what I wanna do with my career and with my life. I was just I I felt like it was like this reverse culture shock as well coming back to The US. So I have to say, it's not easy going back to The US after living in a foreign country for so long. During that process, I realized that if I were to build because they kept on saying in the job market, if you were to volunteer at nonprofits, you know, it helps with, you know, getting a job.

Ami Nafzger: 30:59

And I've started to volunteer quite a bit for a lot of Asian organizations in Minnesota to actually help build references and credibility here, in order to get a job or a a career job or figure out what I wanted to do. And it was great because it was just learning about the different Asian communities here in in Minnesota, and then, learning about the nonprofits and how they run here in Minnesota. From there, that's when I well, someone taught me Facebook or tell me about Facebook. I didn't know much about it. And that's when I discovered Facebook.

Ami Nafzger: 31:34

I'm not much I'm not on it much, and I still don't know how to use much of it. But as I am on Facebook, I would see notifications about adoptees struggling, adoptees asking lots of questions, identity questions, birth search questions, just a lot of questions. And then just doing research, trying to discover and finding that, there's still after, what? The Korean War has started had had occurred almost almost seventy years ago. And after almost seventy years, still yet, there are no solid post adoption services here for adult Korean adoptees, in The US.

Ami Nafzger: 32:19

And that's when I realized, like, oh my goodness. And I and I kinda waited. I I just I didn't do much right away. I've been back from Korea for almost twenty years, and I kinda waited for something to happen, and nothing really happened. I was waiting for someone to build something, and nothing happened.

Ami Nafzger: 32:38

And so that's when I decided just, in 02/2017, I did some research. 02/2018, I decided to do some because I thought about it a long time. I didn't wanna just, like, build something. And I just had to do my research to try to figure out if this would be successful and how and what are people looking for and needing. And 02/2018, I decided to do the paperwork, and, 02/2019, we launched and did our first event.

Ami Nafzger: 33:05

And then now we, have been, you know, holding different events, and we're gonna build build slowly to be able to, provide, some of the services that we are trying to do. And at the same time, we are trying to provide some events, just resources online, virtual resources for people.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 33:26

What do you think it is that adoptees need for services?

Ami Nafzger: 33:29

Some of the things that I had seen on Facebook quite a bit, I see a lot of adoptees, the way they express themselves. They're they're in pain, and I think they have nowhere to turn. It's hard to find each other. And the great thing is there's a couple great resources out there when the AICA gathering occurs. I think that's a wonderful resource for adoptees to meet each other.

Ami Nafzger: 33:54

Or there are small local organizations within each within some states, which are great for adoptees that live there. But there are adoptees that don't live so close to these local organizations. And so trying to find a way to reach out to adoptees virtually to let them know that there are things that exist for them, I am trying to, overcome that barrier. So some of the things that we are looking at is we are building a BurSearch portal and a service portal. And that will take some time, but this BurSearch portal is, something where we want to provide a space for birth mothers or family to finally be able to have a space to put their information in when they're trying to find their children.

Ami Nafzger: 34:44

So talking to adoption agencies in the past couple years, because I've gone to Korea a few times now, and they've been saying that birth families don't have any place to put their information to search for their children. That's where I realized we need to build a portal. And this portal would be for birth families to be able to put their information in Korean and upload the information of their children that they're searching for in this portal. At the same time, the same portal, adoptees would be able to upload their information in, and we will be building on the back end queries and matching data to actually start matching information. So for families who have agreed to search for their fam for their children and adoptees who have agreed to search for family, which both parties and that's another thing.

Ami Nafzger: 35:34

We wanted to make sure that both parties agree, that this would be a safe place for them to search for each other. And then as we start going through the information and data, we are hoping that the more and more brave families and the more and more adoptees that start registering through this portal and information starts matching, we will be having caseworkers on the back end and some technology heavy, on the technology developers to be able to query and match a lot of this information to start having matches. I believe that a birth search is more than just finding each other. I believe that it's about beforehand preparing the adoptee to do that search, preparing them of what could happen, providing them any kind of therapy or counseling and support for that, and not just in the beginning, but while it happens. Also providing translation as well as, providing, that support after the reunion.

Ami Nafzger: 36:36

One of the things I find that a lot of adoptees that when they do reunite, there's a lot of questions, a lot more questions that happen. And adoptees don't have that support or resources to try to figure out what just happened. Why is my birth family acting this way, why do I feel this way, what happens if I do this, or why is my family being this way. So having to deal with all of that by yourself alone and not understanding a whole lot about Korea or the culture or even your family, birth family, and then even also doing maybe with your adoptive family, it's just it's a lot. And I just don't think that people should have to go through those if there could be resources built for them.

Ami Nafzger: 37:19

They don't have to go through those alone anymore. So that's what we are hoping to build.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 37:24

Well, that's amazing. I really look forward to that, coming to fruition. About birth family search, I think a small fraction of us probably are reunited with our birth families or will be reunited with our birth families. And it seems like most adopted people, though, they have to live with not being reunited. Right?

Ami Nafzger: 37:48

That's correct. And you're

Jane Jeong Trenka: 37:50

one of those people. Yeah, Amy?

Ami Nafzger: 37:52

Yes. I am.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 37:54

So, I mean, if if that's, like, the reality, you know, like, how how do you how do you deal with it?

Ami Nafzger: 38:01

Yeah. I think that's a good question. I think every adoptee is different, and it really depends on how our adoption journey is taking us and the resources that we may have. And, for me, it was I mean, I initially went back to Korea to actually do a birth surgery. Growing up here in The US, my adopted parents had died.

Ami Nafzger: 38:22

I lost my father was, had left my family when I was young, about 10 years old. And my my adopted mother passed away before I even graduated from high school. And so I had been on my own since I was 17. So for me, I think it was more I mean, I would have to say it was very important to me to find any kind of biological parents, when I went to Korea. But as I lived in Korea as long as I did and as much as I searched in Korea, and as much media I was on within Korea, and not having the right documentation or information or all the information that I needed to find my family.

Ami Nafzger: 39:04

It took me a long time to actually accept it because I was living it every day and trying to figure those pieces out. And I I still today wish I could find my biological family. And I think just coming back to The States, I had not tried. And I think it just for me, it took me a long time to accept that. I may never be able to find my family, but, it always made me feel like a step closer to help others.

Ami Nafzger: 39:33

Like, it always made me happy to know that others could find their families. And that for me was also really, really important for some reason, that other people could actually have a piece of their soul. And I wanna help so many more people. I just realized that some that either for me, it was not meant to be, and it was something I just had to accept. But for others, it doesn't hurt to try.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 39:59

That's so beautiful. You said that when you're reading what adoptees are posting online, that you see a lot of people in pain. Why do you think that is?

Ami Nafzger: 40:09

I see adoptees either yelling or screaming, asking for help. I see adoptees trying to get attention. I see adoptees angry at each other or blaming each other for maybe something that could be the most simplest miscommunication. What in 02/2018, when I did when I did the paperwork with our lawyer to get AdoptiHub up, I also at that year, I was so devastated because there were four adoptees within, I would have to say, the span of three months that had just committed suicide. And that to me was very sad and devastating because it just felt like we could have prevented this somehow, someway.

Ami Nafzger: 40:49

Something has to be done. And that's not new that adoptees are committing suicide. I think there have been studies by some other adoptees saying that adoptees have a high rate of committing suicide. And I did not mention this, but beef when I left for Korea to live there several years ago, one of my very close friends committed suicide a month after I got to Korea. And I had just given him all of my furniture so he could go to college and live in a dormitory.

Ami Nafzger: 41:24

And then a month later, I found out he had committed suicide. Hearing adoptees committed suicide and then hearing families, even years later, struggling because their child had committed suicide, It's just so sad to me, and nothing's done about it still. And then I've heard so many adoptees that have been brought to a mental health institution because their adoptive families put them there, and then they are stuck there and they're put on drugs thinking that, oh, let's just put them in a mental health institute and then take and then they'll be fine. But, actually, I think the mental health institute makes it worse for adoptees. And I know there are adoptees there that should, you know, be there.

Ami Nafzger: 42:04

And so those things have just our community are is hurting in so many ways. And it feels like our community is very invisible to the mainstream. We as a community, as I'm trying to apply for grants, it feels like we don't get the equal opportunity as much as another group would. And I guess I'm trying to yell and scream for our community to the mainstream. Please understand who we are.

Ami Nafzger: 42:34

Please take the time to learn who we are and and even to assist us as we are applying for grants so we can help our own community.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 42:43

So, Amy, I I, lived with a guy who was very beloved, and he ended his life in Korea Three Years ago. It was three years ago Oh. On New Year's New Year's Eve morning, he ended his life. And he sent me a text message twenty minutes before he ended his life, and I was sleeping. Oh.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 43:08

I didn't pick it up. I found it the next morning, and I he died with his, with my address in his pocket. So the police came to my door first. I was, in touch with his Korean family and his American family, so I contacted them because they are the people who need to take care of things. And then when we found out where the body was, I didn't have childcare.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 43:35

I had my my child with me. So we went to the morgue and looked at his body. I had to bring my child in because I didn't have anybody to take care of her. Like, he if I needed somebody to take care of my child at that time, like, he would have been that person, but he was in the drawer. So I really think about this actually, the suicide thing.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 43:54

I think about him and how he was and how he wasn't gonna ask for help, and that was the kind of person he was. I'm still thinking about this. It's gonna be three years at the end of this year thinking about, like, what could have been different.

Ami Nafzger: 44:11

Yeah. You know, and I think another thing is that we need to recognize that. And when it's being recognized, I just I I feel like I feel like our community has so much pain and anger. It leads us to only care for ourselves and not to be kind to each other. It feels like it makes our community separated at times.

Ami Nafzger: 44:36

Our community has so many issues, and that's what's just so frustrating. We have this high suicide rate. We have the deportation piece where adopters are being deported. And they hadn't, you know, they didn't even have a choice to come to The US. They were just forced to come here.

Ami Nafzger: 44:52

And then now being sent back to the back to Korea without a choice. The way we've been treated, it just feels like we're we're human beings, and we were children, and now we're adults. But yet, still, we were expected to come to a country with a foreign family, foreign language customs, and expected to blend in. But then if we had not gotten our citizenship, then we're expected to go back. It just feels like our the way our community has just been treated hasn't been very respectful.

Ami Nafzger: 45:24

And so I just feel like we need to do something. We need to stand up and do something. And for me, the only way I can do that is just by trying to create some services or something for adoptees to be able to have.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 45:39

That's so amazing how you've dedicated so many years of your life to helping other people. And and now you have kids too. Right?

Ami Nafzger: 45:48

Yes. Two kids. My husband's a Korean adoptee, as you know, Aaron. He's a tech guy. He and I actually because I've always wanted to adapt.

Ami Nafzger: 45:56

When I lived in Korea and I was, visiting my orphanage quite a bit, that's when I realized I really, really want to adopt. I wanted to adopt my orphanage. But, we did not adopt from Korea in the end because that's another story. But the the process of adopting from Korea these days is extremely, extremely complicated, difficult, and expensive. And so, unfortunately, because I'm older, and so I ended up just we had, there's like a, like, an age limit that you can adopt from Korea.

Ami Nafzger: 46:30

So we ended up just adopting from China Four Years ago, and we adopted our daughter, Adeva, from China at, she was three and a half. She is now seven. Yep. So Adeva is seven and Aiden is 11.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 46:42

So when when your youngest was five, you started.

Ami Nafzger: 46:46

Yes.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 46:47

What about Adeva's birth family search? How does that work in China?

Ami Nafzger: 46:52

Our first priority is to actually work with the Korean adoptee community because it's it's one of the largest and first international adoption community. However, we would like to as soon as you know, down the road when we do have a good program developed for the Korean adoptees, we would like to expand it to other international adoptees such as Chinese adoptees and Guatemalan adoptees. But I just believe one step at a time is important in order to be successful. And so one of the things is I thought about in the back of my mind, and when we did the adoptions, we had to go to China for a bit for Deva. I asked a lot of questions about her birth panic.

Ami Nafzger: 47:28

The information we got was absolutely zero, nothing. She was raised in the orphanage since day one. So she was literally found at the age of one day, brought to the police station, and then they brought her to the orphanage when she was one day old. So she had literally grown up in the orphanage since then, and we believe it's from the you know, how China has that law? You know, one child per family?

Ami Nafzger: 48:00

That law has changed now, I think, to two or more. Or that was after Adeba was born. They believe and we believe that she was abandoned because of those reasons. But it was interesting because when we did the adoption with her, they had to make up an excuse of why she was being adopted out of the country. So they said that she was a carrier of hepatitis b.

Ami Nafzger: 48:22

And so I said, oh, well, I'm a carrier of hepatitis b because I found that out when I was pregnant with my son. When we brought her here, I immediately got her checked out and test and stuff. They said, no. She's not a carrier of hepatitis b. She's fine.

Ami Nafzger: 48:38

I think they said that they had to do that to get her out of the country because if nothing was wrong with her, they'd have to keep her in the country. I think that's one of their laws. But, when it comes to birth search for Deva, I have pictures of her in the orphanage, and we have videos, and we talk about it as she's growing up. And, we always tell her, like, you know, mommy was adopted and daddy was adopted. And so well, I I think it makes her feel good that she, you know, she's not the only person that was adopted.

Ami Nafzger: 49:08

And we always talk about how now we're a family together, we found each other. And so I I do wanna bring her to, China as she grows, as she gets older, and when she's ready, visit her orphanage and stuff. She is actually learning Chinese. I have her because one of the things that Jane, I think you and I, I it would have been great for us to be able to go to a Korean immersion school when we were growing up, and we didn't have that. We didn't have those resources.

Ami Nafzger: 49:38

And for Adeifa, I actually have her attend a Chinese immersion school. She absolutely loves it. She spoke a little Chinese here, and she has been able to continue some of that, going into school here. We had actually signed up Aiden to go to that school, and before we even thought about adopting from China, because we had intentions adopting from Korea. So Aiden had been going to the Chinese school because we wanted him to have to learn another language, and, I really wanted him to have some role models that look like him or to have his peers to look like him too as well.

Ami Nafzger: 50:14

And so that was important to me, and I'm sure you understand that, Jane, just growing up in non white society. It's it's hard to always feel and look different. Jayden is very precious to me because he is my only as you know, so I had not found my biological family. So he's my only biological drug to me. So and Aaron, he has found his family.

Ami Nafzger: 50:37

I found his family ten years ago.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 50:40

Oh my goodness. Wow. So do you do you come and see his family?

Ami Nafzger: 50:44

Yes. We so what happened was his father had committed suicide, and then they had to let a Aaron go. He has two older brothers, and then the two older brothers saw what happened to Aaron, how he was put in the orphanage, and the brothers bathed to stay in the to stay with the mom. And the mom ended up get putting them in with family members until she could get back on her feet. She had to give her sons back to the dad's family at that time, but when they got older, the family did give the children back so she could stabilize herself.

Ami Nafzger: 51:24

So one brother's four years older and the other brother's two years older. The one the middle boy, he had been searching for Aaron and couldn't find him and he committed suicide. So yeah. So Aaron's biological dad and brother commit suicide, and so he has one brother left in his biological. I'll communicate with her once in a while in Korea, but not often, and he says it's because of the language barrier.

Ami Nafzger: 51:48

We have actually partnered with professional conference translators in Korea, and they have actually agreed to partner with AdoptiHub to provide their translators for free for adoptees around the world.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 52:02

Wow. It's a lot that you're doing. As far as, like, adoption itself, what what do you think is needed for the adoption process?

Ami Nafzger: 52:10

I have to share it with you. When I went through the adoption process with the data, I was I have to say I was appalled. I was appalled about how things were done.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 52:23

What kind of things were happening?

Ami Nafzger: 52:25

Well, it we first started with the Korea program. It was a very long, unclear process. We had part time workers, four, agency workers social workers with us within the span of nine months. Four different social workers. And they were all part time, and they weren't communicating with each other, and it was very frustrating.

Ami Nafzger: 52:47

We had to submit our paperwork in four times, four different times. They did not communicate the process by saying, oh, here's the process. You would wanna get all of this paperwork and then do x, y, and z. And then you would want to submit that again for this and this and the same thing for this and this. They did not communicate that information.

Ami Nafzger: 53:08

So after the first time we got all of the paperwork in, which took a long time trying to obtain paperwork from all over the place, couple months later, they said, oh, by the way, you have to do it again for this. We're like, well, why didn't you tell us that? Because we could've done that at the same time. And they said, oh, no. You know, that's just a formality we have to do.

Ami Nafzger: 53:28

And it has to be within a certain time period. We're like, okay. Well so then we did that. And then the third time, they asked us again, and we're just like, what? And, like, what are you talking about?

Ami Nafzger: 53:38

We just did that, like, twice. And so it was just they did that to us for four times. It was very frustrating, and I think just as a user experience, it was very unorganized, and there wasn't a lot of communication. But yet the first thing upfront, they wanted a whole lot of money. And so that was very frustrating.

Ami Nafzger: 53:58

And so we all know that money, it costs a lot of money. And we all know that the process takes it's very, very cumbersome. And I just didn't realize how cumbersome it was. And when I we attended their required classes, as you may know, and those required classes, I was appalled not so much by the agency, but by the families that were adopting because they showed a video of adult adoptees talking about their difficulties. I had some comments just saying that, you know, I think we should be a little more respectful of the adoptees that, in the video that had talked about their experience because they were bad.

Ami Nafzger: 54:37

Because I think there were about 20 families. They immediately said, oh, that's not gonna happen to our child. And I said, well, you know, we're, like and my husband and I, Aaron and I, we're the only adult adoptees there. Period. As we read them elsewhere, brand new, going to be parents or, you know, and Caucasian, and they just it it didn't sound like they had a whole lot of cultural, experience or exposure.

Ami Nafzger: 55:02

And so they just a lot of families were saying, no. That's not gonna happen to our child. We're gonna raise our child, and our child's gonna be this way. And I kept on trying to speak in a very nice gentle way by saying, but, you know, I just wanna let you know that, you know, that there aren't gonna be questions that your children are gonna ask. And I just felt like they didn't they had their mind made up.

Ami Nafzger: 55:24

And that was very frustrating for me to see these families this way. And so I just thought, I wonder if a lot of adoptive families go through this and they have their mind up made up saying that they may have heard horrible things, but they're not gonna respect they're not gonna respect the child as they get older. So that just made me question a whole lot, and I just felt like I wish the agency would have stepped in a little more and spoke up, but they did not. They just kinda let it happen. It it it just felt like it was they couldn't prevented a whole lot of things right there upfront in those classes, and they weren't.

Ami Nafzger: 55:58

So the other piece that was kind of interesting is we had we were required to take several classes, online classes through the through The Hague and, the federal government. And all of the questions were geared towards Caucasian or white people that have no exposure to diversity or culture. It was not geared towards a couple like Erin and I or even, biracial. So it was questions like, have you ever seen another Asian before? Have you ever eaten any kind of Asian food?

Ami Nafzger: 56:32

I mean, it was things like that, and I'm thinking, what the heck? And I'm thinking, this is not this is not good. And so one of the things that I honestly, Jane, would love to do down the road is I'd love to just provide input. It would be nice to have a a working task team of adult adoptees to say, we need researchers and scholars and say, we need to have input with a hey about these tests and the classes that should be required for the adoption agencies. There should be some change here on The US side.

Ami Nafzger: 57:11

The questions and the classes, I just think, are not built or created for parents to actually really, really, really prepare themselves for adoption.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 57:20

Like, just what you're saying about this process where they're losing paperwork and you've got four different social workers within, like, nine months, how can they possibly screen anybody? I mean, like, obviously, it's all about money. You know? Thankfully, you and Aaron are good people, but, like, there's a whole bunch of people who are not. Right?

Jane Jeong Trenka: 57:38

Like, how do they screen them out? They don't.

Ami Nafzger: 57:40

They don't know.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 57:41

They can't.

Ami Nafzger: 57:42

I don't they can't. And they I don't think they did. And I don't know if it was just that agency or what, but this is a pretty well known agency and one of and the only agency that does international adoption here in Minnesota right now. So

Jane Jeong Trenka: 57:56

Yeah. I mean, like, this just tells us how much importance that they place on on, like, this really life changing decision that's gonna happen to this kid. I mean, it's all formalities. Right? I mean, like, they they try to keep making these systems tighter and better and whatever.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 58:10

But, like, if in the end, you're gonna staff it like that, what can you do?

Ami Nafzger: 58:14

You know, I would love to see, Jane, I would love to create a really good adoption curriculum and have it mandatory work like, partner with the with The Hague and have it mandatory through the feds and for the adoption agencies to have to follow this tight curriculum for adoptive parents. This is gonna continue and continue, and the children are gonna grow up like us and have so many questions and so much confused, lost, angry, depressed. That is just what's going on right now. One of the things is I'm finding that adopting to be kind to each other. I think we're just all so frustrated, and there's a lot of anger out there, and we need to come together and we're not.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 59:00

Yeah. I think there's a lot of lateral violence. Like, we could be mad at bigger things and more powerful things, but that's, like, a little bit too hard, so we're just mad at each other.

Ami Nafzger: 59:11

Yes. Probably.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 59:13

I mean, like, I'm I'm so glad you're in our community and you're thinking in such a big picture way about taking it to The Hague and taking it to the feds and so forth because I feel like that's where we can make progress as activists and community organizers. Like, what do you do with all your rage and your sadness and your despair over seeing people die in our community? You know? It's like, if if you can sort of elevate it to that level, it's it's helpful. And then when we're just engaging in lateral violence and hating on each other and, you know, beating up women and stuff like that, like, that's not helping.

Ami Nafzger: 59:49

No. No. I mean, there's a lot of talented adoptees out there and a lot of smart adoptees out there. We are just trying to find them and trying to have them come and join us so we can actually become stronger.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 01:00:03

So how can people find you if they if they would like to join?

Ami Nafzger: 01:00:07

Just through our website. It's www.adopteehub.0rg. But, yes, this is an all volunteer organization. I also am a volunteer. I actually work full time.

Jane Jeong Trenka: 01:00:19

Amy, I just wanna express so much gratitude for, this interview and for you being on planet Earth and doing all this community service and activism over the years. It's such an honor. So thank you so much for contributing to the book and for spending your time with us today.

Ami Nafzger: 01:00:34

Well, thank you so much for reaching out to me. I really appreciate it, and it's so great to hear your voice. Thank you.

Narrator: 01:00:42

This recording was produced by University of Minnesota Press. Outsiders Within is a landmark publication that explores transracial adoption and the heavy emotional and cultural toll on those who directly experience it. For more information, visit z.umn.edu/outsiderswithin.