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Joyce is a founder, entrepreneur, content creator, disruptor, rebel against boring, a savior from sucky training, wife, mother, daughter, sister, and human. In this episode, Joyce and Stuart talk about academic experience, the beginning of their careers, and their journey to becoming business owners. Learn how Tax Nuggets Academy was founded (and what’s coming up next), and how owning a business affects your personal life.
Join Stuart McLeod as he interviews the world's top accounting leaders to understand their story, how they operate, their goals, mission, and top advice to help you run your accounting firm.
Stuart McLeod 00:00:05.727 [music] Hi. I'm Stuart McLeod, CEO and co-founder of Karbon. Welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast, the show where I go behind the scenes with the world's top accounting leaders. [music] Welcome to the first episode of season two. We have a ton planned and are excited to bring you more episodes, more conversations with the top leaders in accounting, and a few more surprises to help you run your accounting firm. Today, I'm joined by founder of Tax Nuggets Academy, Joyce Ong. Joyce has experience working as a tax manager and director at KPMG as well as a senior tax specialist and tax governance lead at the Australian Taxation Office. She quit her job about 7 months ago to start her own business and create a microlearning online platform for accountants and tax geeks, where she combines her creative flair with her technical expertise to create short and engaging videos or lollipops for your brain with hidden veggies, as she calls it. It is my pleasure to welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast Joyce Ong. Welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast. Where do we find you on this sunny Wednesday in the lead-up to Christmas of 2021?
Joyce Ong 00:01:25.846 It is Wednesday here, by the way, Wednesday morning, 10:00 AM in Melbourne, Australia.
Stuart McLeod 00:01:32.278 Are you Melbourne born and bred?
Joyce Ong 00:01:33.829 Oh, no, no, Malaysian background, actually. Got kicked out when I was 18.
Stuart McLeod 00:01:39.921 Of Malaysia?
Joyce Ong 00:01:41.386 Yes, to come to Australia.
Stuart McLeod 00:01:41.963 Well, that sounds like a story. How did you get kicked out of Malaysia?
Joyce Ong 00:01:46.604 By my parents.
Stuart McLeod 00:01:47.536 Oh, I see. Oh, I see. They said, "Wherever, you go forth and yonder."
Joyce Ong 00:01:52.506 Correct. That's right. And yeah, completely shell-shocked when I landed in Melbourne Airport and tried to order my first Subway and completely stuffed it up. I said, "I wanted everything," because I didn't know how to order a sandwich because we don't eat sandwiches in Malaysia. And when I opened my Subway, it completely fell apart because it's chock-full of everything. I just said yes to everything. So there you go, my experience in Australia.
Stuart McLeod 00:02:20.691 In Tullamarine, downtown, sunny Tullamarine.
Joyce Ong 00:02:23.623 That's right.
Stuart McLeod 00:02:25.359 Okay. So you're Malaysian-educated. What did your parents want you to be? Any degree? They didn't mind which medical degree you got as long as it was one?
Joyce Ong 00:02:36.074 As long as it was-- nah, it had to be accounting, actually. It had to be business
Stuart McLeod 00:02:39.036 Oh, there you go. There you go.
Joyce Ong 00:02:40.882 It had to be business. My dad is studying agriculture, and he said he's the poorest among his friends that all studied business, "So, Joyce, you are going to Australia to do a degree in Bachelors of Commerce." And I barely passed every single subject except for tax, so that's why it's my savior. I think I got a, yeah, 79% on tax, and that was the only job I could apply for. And that's it. Yeah, by elimination, I am now a tax specialist/trainer.
Stuart McLeod 00:03:15.446 And which illustrious college in Melbourne did you end up at?
Joyce Ong 00:03:19.984 Melbourne Uni.
Stuart McLeod 00:03:20.720 Yes. So you did accounting and tax at Melbourne Uni?
Joyce Ong 00:03:24.004 Yep.
Stuart McLeod 00:03:24.626 Which Melbourne Uni pubs did you go to most?
Joyce Ong 00:03:27.715 No, I was way too good when I was a student.
Stuart McLeod 00:03:29.442 Oh, really?
Joyce Ong 00:03:30.852 Yeah, I think I'm a late--
Stuart McLeod 00:03:32.167 You don't strike me now as you've evolved as a person.
Joyce Ong 00:03:39.236 I think so. I think I'm a late bloomer when it comes to being social, etc., so I never really went out until I started working. And then yeah, I just, yeah, needed a drink after working, and yeah, that's when I discovered, yeah, the wonders of the alcoholic beverage.
Stuart McLeod 00:04:00.219 Yeah, no, I understand. I understand. What was the biggest lesson at Melbourne Uni do you think?
Joyce Ong 00:04:07.501 Ah, everything, right? I mean, first time coming out of home, just learning how to be myself and not doing something stupid, I guess.
Stuart McLeod 00:04:18.736 Did you feel a great responsibility to your folks having been through that journey?
Joyce Ong 00:04:23.895 Yeah, I guess so, just had an obligation to pass my exams or whatever it is. Yeah, I had to come home with that bachelor's. Otherwise, I will be completely disowned, basically. How about yourself? Did you grow up in Melbourne, Sydney?
Stuart McLeod 00:04:40.088 Yep, Melbourne born and bred. Swinburne University, up the road in Hawthorn, I did an IT degree called bachelor's-- oh, literally bachelor's information technology. And then even though Melbourne perhaps Monash Law or Arts and Commerce are more illustrious than the big brown building in Hawthorne-- I don't know if it's changed that much, but I really loved doing that degree. It certainly was the foundation of my career. We went and did some work experience during my degree. And my first job was at Oracle, and that was part of the university aspect of the curriculum. And yes, sort of been programming and sales and support ever since. So I think that despite the dramatic change in the work environment over the last two decades, right-- we've talked about this on the podcast a few times, but what college degree do you have to go to be an Instagram influencer? Is there one yet?
Joyce Ong 00:05:50.029 College of life. It's--
Stuart McLeod 00:05:50.852 College of life, you reckon?
Joyce Ong 00:05:52.490 Yeah.
Stuart McLeod 00:05:52.626 Good DNA perhaps? [laughter] And this generation, a lot of-- our kids and generations are going to grow up where kind of hard work does not necessarily mean success, and success does not necessarily require hard work. I mean, we've spoken to crypto millionaires that sort of picked up a good stock a little while ago and turned 10 into 100 and beyond, right? So I don't know. Is a college degree as valuable as it once was?
Joyce Ong 00:06:28.092 Definitely not. But I would say those are the lucky ones. Wouldn't apply to everyone. Yeah, unfortunately, there is no formula for success, right? But I would say on average, hard work is required unless you are one in a million that got lucky with crypto. And also, that's a once-off thing. You can't formulate that again, see? Yeah, so to me, I think hard work is still required.
Stuart McLeod 00:06:57.576 We'd like to think so. I'd like to think so. And then, say, if my kids are listening, and they don't, I wouldn't-- they hear enough for their dad, but, kids, you're going to college. Your parents are old school.
Joyce Ong 00:07:11.077 But I mean, just looking at social media marketing, I mean, it's not just a fluke. I mean, you can go viral once. But to try and replicate that, ah, yeah, good luck with that, right? It does take a lot of commitment, consistency, and a real voice, which requires hard work. Yeah, I mean, social media influencers, they like to pretend that it's just a fluke, or it's just some sort of magic that goes on in the background, but I reckon, yeah, there's a whole production system and, yeah, blood, sweat, and tears behind it, which I have learned as well from the [crosstalk].
Stuart McLeod 00:07:49.691 I'm sure you have. And we'll get into Tax Nuggets and your amazing singing ability. Maybe we can get a song in the podcast. We're not set up to do-- we'll see if we can convince you to do a little jig.
Joyce Ong 00:08:00.505 Oh, I haven't warmed up yet. Oh, I haven't quite practiced a warm-up yet.
Stuart McLeod 00:08:05.678 Well, we'll do a warm-up. You don't want me to sing, I'll tell you. [I won't be this time?]. But we'll get into your hard work and how you've been as successful as you have. And congratulations. Tell us a little bit about Tax Nuggets and how you came up with it. And then we'll go back and maybe talk a little bit about what happened after your well-earned, hard-earned degree from Melbourne University after the Subway incident.
Joyce Ong 00:08:32.129 Oh, seriously boring, so let's skip to the exciting part, which is the last 7 months of my life has been, yeah, a massive roller coaster. But yeah, a little bit about Tax Nuggets. We're online trading for accountants and tax geeks. And yeah, so we basically partner with tax specialists, and we cocreate content together. Yeah, our mission is basically to save the world from boring trading. I like to say-- I came up with this, just the other day, actually, not me but my copywriter. We're curing the world from CPD, so not continuing professional development but crappy PowerPoint disease, so yeah, very short, punchy videos in the style of microlearning. I like to call it-- we take technical boring content, and we convert it into lollipops for your brain with hidden veggies. So yeah, that's a little bit about us, 7 months old. I quit my job on-- last day of work was 30th of April this year. So we're doing--
Stuart McLeod 00:09:31.861 Was that a tax deadline? I hope so, just for all of us--
Joyce Ong 00:09:36.137 No, it was just a--
Stuart McLeod 00:09:37.634 --a bit of hidden humor, right?
Joyce Ong 00:09:40.361 --a deadline I negotiated with the tax office. I was there as a contractor. And yeah, launched two weeks after that and finally, almost reached 100,000 annual recurring revenue. It's not big, but I'm giving myself a pat on the back because I've done it, basically, with nothing. 10 grand, I bought a new desktop, secondhand camera, and I chucked in 5K working capital. And basically, from, yeah, no subscribers to about 300 subscribers currently and, yeah, 100,000 annual recurring revenue.
Stuart McLeod 00:10:17.625 Congratulations. It's amazing. Well done.
Joyce Ong 00:10:19.945 In hard lockdown as well, mind you, in Melbourne where we can't even-- yeah, we can only leave our house to exercise once a day and not further than five kilometers.
Stuart McLeod 00:10:30.887 Yes, now, if you want to do further than five kilometers, you're going to run three laps, right?
Joyce Ong 00:10:35.539 Yeah, you just go run around in circles.
Stuart McLeod 00:10:37.455 Well, there's been a few statements lately from the government that would like to think that these social lockdowns are limited. But enough of the government. Let's talk about you. So prior to Tax Nuggets, you're working at the Australian Taxation Office as a contractor. Is that right?
Joyce Ong 00:10:58.083 Yeah, 16 months, I last--
Stuart McLeod 00:10:59.763 16 months as a contractor there. And your experience in tax was initially born out of your success in the tax subject at Melbourne Uni. Is that right?
Joyce Ong 00:11:10.536 Yeah, yeah, through elimination.
Stuart McLeod 00:11:12.136 Through elimination. So your 79% got you all the way to a job at the tax office. That's good.
Joyce Ong 00:11:18.262 Ah, no, no, I started in a mid-tier firm, corporate tax, and got my CA, chartered accounting degree cert. And then got tapped on the shoulder by a recruiter as they do, looking out for people that just finished their CA to jump ship, so, yeah, like KPMG. And I was there for 10 years before I got jaded. And, "Hey, why don't I go over to the dark side or the light side?" just depending on which side you're on, I guess. And yeah, I was there at the ATO for 16 months. And then I could finally-- and also because of the lockdown, I think, I could finally think about myself instead of worrying about my clients all the time. And I realized that, yeah, I want to give this a go, starting my own business, and, yeah, just disrupting how education is delivered.
Stuart McLeod 00:12:10.226 Was this sort of an overnight sort of inspiration or sort of a frustration that you'd experienced during your time at KPMG and then perhaps into the ATO?
Joyce Ong 00:12:25.620 Absolutely. I mean, yeah, crappy PowerPoint disease has been around forever, and it's born out of something that I wish existed throughout my entire career. And it just didn't. It's always been delivered face-to-face training, very structured. And I just wished there was a place, kind of like YouTube. You want to make tiramisu today. You just check it on YouTube, and then you get hundreds of videos on how to make tiramisu. Why can't that exist for professionals? And I want to make that exist, basically. I mean, I've got great, great, massive goals on where to take Tax Nuggets. And basically, I want to create this little YouTube platform, just for professionals and not just tax but for all accountants and then maybe, yeah, broadening it to finance and law. The sky's the limit.
Stuart McLeod 00:13:26.256 When you're at the ATO, what were you told when you sort of came up with this idea and when you started running it by your friends and your colleagues and peers at work?
Joyce Ong 00:13:34.530 So what I started doing was I just made these little videos while I was still at the ATO, and then I just posted it on LinkedIn because that's where all my networks are. And yeah, I mean, I got really good success, and then people really liked it. And then I just created a company LinkedIn profile and started chucking my videos in there. And yeah, I got a few followers, and I'm like, "Hey, I kind of really like doing this." I was upfront with the tax office the whole time about doing this because it's a massive conflict of interest. But I said, "Yeah, I'm just letting you know I'm doing this. Just let me know as soon as it's an issue." And they let me do it for around 4 whole months, and then finally, they said, "Hey, Joyce, we're not going to renew your contract if you keep doing this." And I'm like, "I kind of really want to still do it." So I quit and gave up my, yeah, wonderful salary of almost, yeah, $200,000 a year-- or month to basically earn--
Stuart McLeod 00:14:33.278 Good taxpayers' money [inaudible] is well-invested, I think. Smart person in the ATO doesn't go astray.
Joyce Ong 00:14:43.208 But yeah, I'm earning peanuts at the moment. So it's a startup phase. I'm getting used to it. And yeah, just being a business owner has been so challenging but so rewarding. Yeah, I don't know if you remember your first steps.
Stuart McLeod 00:14:55.927 Oh, I remember. I remember.
Joyce Ong 00:14:57.786 Yeah? How long ago was that?
Stuart McLeod 00:14:59.991 Well, I did it a couple of times. I sort of started up a few times. But the one that I remember most was probably the payroll company that we started in 2009. I mean, I was just like you, after hours, credit cards. Back then, even if we were going to attract VC money, it just wasn't available. There was no money in Aussie at that stage. And yeah, we just sort of scrapped and scraped and did everything we can to sort of-- we borrowed offices. We borrowed machines, John Rhodes, most of the software in all of his bedroom after hours and late at night. And that was kind of where we got to and how we had to do it. And 2 years later, we kind of sold that to Xero and why we went from there. But yeah, I mean, it is more fun doing it with a bit more resource. I won't deny that. But at the end of the day, it is a lot more-- I think that experience is beneficial, right? There's just so much money and so many companies raising so much money, particularly around software and not necessarily that dissimilar to what you're doing. But we're in the US, in particular, but also, I've noticed a lot more in Australia now, there's a lot more money available, which can be a good thing, but you're going to see a lot of these companies blow up because they haven't had to be scarce with resource; they haven't had to prioritize carefully; they haven't had to sort of find a real product-market fit that you really have to sort of work really hard towards without resource. But anyway, I mean, that's my theory, but we'll see what happens.
Joyce Ong 00:16:52.839 I have sought funding from Melbourne Uni and Boosting Female Founders, but I never got it. But I think adversity does give rise to different solutions. Because I don't want to use that much of my own capital, so I've tried to use-- first of all, I've created two things, right? So I've created this collaboration model, where I partner with other tax specialists, because I don't have money to go and employ trainers to create my content, actual tax advisers, trainers, employees. So yeah, I partner with tax lawyers who want to get in front of accountants to build their reputation, etc. And so I cocreate content with them. So that's sort of kind of an innovative solution, I guess. I mean, people doing that already, but I've just systemized it. And so that's how I get my content, by collaborating with these people. And also, I help them sort of build their reputation on social media, which is something that I can bring to them, whereas the traditional-- the CAs and the CPA, if they go to their conference, they'll just talk at the conference, and that's it, whereas my content with them is evergreen, and I'll keep putting it on social media, etc. So that's one sort of thing that I've been doing. And another one, because I don't have money for employees, I have been just engaging freelancers. And I've just been creating a system where I can engage any freelancer, particularly with my production process. So it's sort of like I have this little video where I send to them, and it's onboarding. I talk about, "This is the system. This is the colors that you need to use. This is how I like to work. These are the fonts," and then I put everything that they can download. Yeah, and so in that way, I can basically, yeah, move quick and just, yeah, get the production going really quickly and for cheap as well.
Stuart McLeod 00:18:42.320 The world is full of elastic resource now, yeah, which is pretty handy. The geek economy is a whole nother debate, right, but it does on its surface-- if you look at what people can do and apply their skills perhaps after hours or make a bit of extra money, in its purest form, utilizing that kind of resources is a win-win, beneficial all around. You get what you need. They get a few extra dollars. And I think the Upworks and the Fiverrs of the world make complete sense.
Joyce Ong 00:19:14.418 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I guess this whole controversy around, "When do your freelancers or your contractors become employees?" I mean, if it is not working for you full-time, do you, as an employer, have an obligation to then give them sick leave and insurance and all that sort of stuff?
Stuart McLeod 00:19:37.002 Like anything in the world, if you take something to the extreme, you're going to run into issues. And that's what kind of the Grubhubs and the Ubers and everything sort of did with elastic resource and geek labor. And of course, supply and demand means that more laborer was available, and more drivers came on. And the cheaper the hourly rate got, and the more greedy that Uber had gotten, the way they go, right, but.
Joyce Ong 00:20:09.223 And yeah, I think it's happened with Amazon drivers as well, deliverers.
Stuart McLeod 00:20:14.220 Taking over this country, that's for sure. What about other sources of revenue, right? Have you tried the TikToks and the YouTubes of the world? And what do you find in there?
Joyce Ong 00:20:25.474 So I don't know if you know, yeah, my business model is a subscription model, so it's kind of like Netflix or Skillshare. The users jump on. They pay a monthly fee. And then they get access to all trading content, mostly visual-based videos and infographics, that sort of thing, very little reading material. And so I only use YouTube for publicity. The gold is in my platform, on my website. Yeah, so that's the business model in a nutshell. And then we run live events as well as a complimentary on top of that, and people come in, and they pay a lot higher. So it's $25 for a basic subscription for video, online content. And then to attend live events, they have to upgrade to $89. That's where I get the upsell, basically. So that--
Stuart McLeod 00:21:14.993 Well, I hope they can afford your $89. I'm sure they can.
Joyce Ong 00:21:18.560 Well, other places are charging, well, $200 for an hour and a half webinar. And sometimes no humans appear. It's just slides. It is shocking. I don't know about how things are in States, but in Australia, it is quite dire. The education CPD market is expensive and very boring.
Stuart McLeod 00:21:41.199 I don't think you find much argument from our North American listeners. Would you look at-- is that an interesting aspect for you, sort of trying to expand into different markets? What do you think about that?
Joyce Ong 00:21:53.729 Oh, absolutely. I mean, the problem I'm facing now is because-- okay, maybe just step back. So I've started this business based on my unfair advantages. And really, it's about tax because I know tax; I've been in tax for 15 years. My networks are all in accounting tax and design, so I'm unique in the fact that I can do video design; I can do animations. So I did it in uni as a freelancer, and it's all coming back to me now. And I've got a husband in IT. And I like subscription businesses because I want to earn money while I sleep. And yeah, so it has to be something that earns money when I sleep. And so yeah, I created Tax Nuggets based on these unfair advantages and what I want in my life. Scaling it upon that will take a lot more. So I'm at the stage where I'm thinking, "Do I want to just be a micro, solo entrepreneur? Or do I really want to scale this up to the next level and expand in terms of other professional services, areas like management consulting or financial planning? Or do I want to do something else, like helping accountants go deep, basically, help them maybe do content marketing?" Some of my content can be converted into a content library, where accountants can go in and pick and choose what content they like, and then I'll license it to them, and then they can post it on their website. Or they can create a client hub, client onboarding. These are the videos that you should watch about budgeting or about 10 things you need to think about before going to the bank for money for, yeah, a loan. So there are a lot of-- so I know Tax Nuggets is just a start. It's small, but yeah, at some point, I'll have to either expand or pivot. Yeah, I don't know if you've got thoughts around that as a very experienced entrepreneur.
Stuart McLeod 00:23:48.206 Wherever your heart takes you. Wherever your heart takes you and which area you think is going to provide the most satisfaction. I mean, it depends what you want in life, too. Growth at all costs is always not often the answers. We spent sort of 6, 7 years getting our platform right before expanding pretty dramatically next year, but that's not right for everybody. If you want a lifestyle business, it shouldn't be a dirty word. I know it can be, but it is perfectly legitimate. You'll get your subscriptions up to a couple hundred grand, half a million bucks, and it's like, "Ah, well, I can have a very flexible lifestyle. I can--" Do whatever it is that you want to do and travel or have kids or none of the above or whatever you like, right? And if you don't have dozens of employees to sort of feel responsible for, and you've got elastic labor that you can call upon, what a great life, right? That is a very legitimate-- more than legitimate. It's an amazing way to operate, right?
Joyce Ong 00:25:01.520 So what made you want to take it to the next level?
Stuart McLeod 00:25:04.904 Oh.
Joyce Ong 00:25:05.018 This is becoming like your podcast, sorry.
Stuart McLeod 00:25:06.532 Yeah, no, no, no, we can do this. What made me? Ah, well, have you ever done an Enneagram?
Joyce Ong 00:25:14.844 A what?
Stuart McLeod 00:25:15.393 An Enneagram.
Joyce Ong 00:25:16.890 No.
Stuart McLeod 00:25:17.399 My therapist will be thrilled to hear about this. Enneagram is like a Myers-Briggs sort of psychological profiling kind of thing, IDGB and all of that stuff. Anyway, you should look up Enneagram, right? So I'm an Enneagram 8. And one of my failings, essentially, in my personality is the never-ending horizon sort of characteristic, right? So whenever you think that you've reached a point in life where you might be satisfied and sort of go, "Okay. Well, I think things are good now," the horizon has already moved by the time you get there. And it's--
Joyce Ong 00:25:57.281 Oh, that sounds like me also.
Stuart McLeod 00:26:01.124 So now, you need to do an Enneagram, right? So it's great in the sense that as long as you're satisfied that you can sort of keep going, and the journey never ends. But it's terrible if you try to explain to your partner, your wife, or your kids, "Oh, why can't you just take four or five weeks off when we go and do something else?" It's because you just--
Joyce Ong 00:26:24.353 There's so much to do, just to make a plan.
Stuart McLeod 00:26:26.371 Exactly. Exactly. There's so much to do. And what's next? What's next? What's next? Right? So some personalities just have that, and mine's one of them. And it's just about coming to terms with that and living with that and trying to balance that with family commitments and three kids. And also, I mean, I love skiing and riding and all that kind of stuff, and that's why we live where we live. And fitting everything in, that's another massive challenge, right? When you're sort of oriented like that, that's the difficulty. And I think a lot of-- now, we're getting into it, aren't we? I think a lot of marriages suffer or partnerships suffer with personality traits like that because you can just become very selfish and try and find-- essentially, life is about priorities and prioritization. And it--
Joyce Ong 00:27:21.481 And compromise with your partner.
Stuart McLeod 00:27:22.444 And compromise.
Joyce Ong 00:27:23.849 And hopefully, you can get a partner that understands. So I'm sort of in the thick of that at the moment because, yeah, my partner is, yeah, brand new to all this. I mean, and he is the opposite of me, very content. And I just don't know how-- why can't I be like that? There's so much dissatisfaction but in a good way because it fuels the business and the mission or whatever. But yeah, it's him trying to understand that. But thankfully, I think he does, I mean, so far, but it's very early in the journey, right? And trying to scale it to the next level, starting to get employees. And the pressure builds. Yeah, I'm on the verge of getting first part-time permanent employee. But then it really starts to-- it's really the next level, I think, when you start having employees because it's about having mouths to feed, and I think I will feel that pressure.
Stuart McLeod 00:28:17.545 You do. You can't not--
Joyce Ong 00:28:19.671 Yeah, yeah, so--
Stuart McLeod 00:28:21.122 --especially the first ones. I mean, I love that team and everything, but you do feel that you don't-- doesn't matter how you-- well, I mean, I do, anyway. I mean, maybe massive narcissists don't. Some people obviously might say, "Oh, yeah, a little bit." But you can't help not-- well, I couldn't help not, anyway, feel that pressure and think that you're-- you bear some responsibility, right, as an employer to-- it's the employee-employer relationship. It is built in responsibility and governance, sort of the way that you need to operate, the way you treat people, etc.
Joyce Ong 00:29:00.739 Yeah, absolutely. So I'm actually glad that-- so when I first started my business, I was thinking, "Should I go all in, get employees and try to scale quick and all that?" But what I'm actually glad is that I went really slow and really cheap to confirm to myself that there is a proof of concept and that I can run a business. And so now, yeah, I've got 100k annual recurring revenue. It's time to take it to the next level, I think. For instance--
Stuart McLeod 00:29:32.425 Yep, just the next little step.
Joyce Ong 00:29:35.075 Yeah, step by step. There's a word for it. Iterate, yeah? I think it's, yeah, iterate, step by step, in small chunks. For instance, my current platform is just real cheap and dirty. It's 99 USD a month, software as a service. I'm in the middle of migrating it to a better platform. But still, there's a $30,000 option, which ticks all my boxes.
Stuart McLeod 00:30:00.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go.
Joyce Ong 00:30:03.365 Yeah. And it's--
Stuart McLeod 00:30:04.160 That's 30% of your revenue, though.
Joyce Ong 00:30:05.943 I know, but it ticks all the boxes. It's also a digital content management software because now, my content is just sitting all over the place. But it's 30 grand. Or I could go with a smaller upgrade, which is 250 USD a month. And I chose that, yes, because I think it's about small iterations. And then when I can really afford it, that's when I get the 30K platform, yeah, just to take the pressure off. But there's always a temptation to go big, just get the expensive thing because it ticks all the boxes, and people love it anyway. I think it doesn't work that way.
Stuart McLeod 00:30:45.239 It's always a balance with that stuff. There's no wrong decision, I don't think, as long as you-- I mean, these days, it's pretty easy to sort of move around platforms. The only ones that can be difficult, not necessarily but can be, is sort of the billing ones, where credit cards are stored and all that. But everything else, I think, is reasonably movable.
Joyce Ong 00:31:07.967 Thankfully, yeah, this new platform sort of allows Stripe migrations. And so basically, I'm stuck with Stripe forever.
Stuart McLeod 00:31:15.817 Yeah, yeah, that's not a coincidence.
Joyce Ong 00:31:20.580 Exactly. So I feel what you're saying, yeah, definitely.
Stuart McLeod 00:31:25.913 What about distribution? That's probably the key aspect to solve, I would guess, right, being able to find a way to scale from-- how many subscriptions today, 300, 400?
Joyce Ong 00:31:39.123 323.
Stuart McLeod 00:31:40.091 323. I'll be the 324, just to show, yeah, support.
Joyce Ong 00:31:44.839 Yay.
Stuart McLeod 00:31:46.118 But from 324 to 3,024 to 30,024, how do you see that working?
Joyce Ong 00:31:54.510 So first of all, it's a little bit of this plan that I have, which is working with content partners, right? So these content partners, they come to me; we work together; we create a piece of content; and we publish it; and then their networks will also spread it. And they also get that bit of that Benjamin Franklin effect. I don't know if you've heard of that. But anyone that sort of has checked out your content and worked with you, they tend to like it more, and they promote it for you on your behalf, so a bit of that.
Stuart McLeod 00:32:26.366 Have you tried any advertising yet on Facebook, or?
Joyce Ong 00:32:29.837 Yes.
Stuart McLeod 00:32:30.282 Yeah? And how did that go?
Joyce Ong 00:32:31.289 Well, let me tell you about how I tried my own digital marketing for [crosstalk].
Stuart McLeod 00:32:34.366 Yep, tell me. Tell me.
Joyce Ong 00:32:36.441 Yeah, so I started. I went on LinkedIn, just waiting there and try to figure it out on my own. Went to Facebook. We tried to figure it out on our own. Yeah, so launched an ad campaign on Facebook. And then on the second day, I got an instant message from a random person saying, "Get off my FB. I didn't ask for this."
Stuart McLeod 00:32:55.996 Well, that was a good start.
Joyce Ong 00:32:56.253 And oh, God, my heart just dropped. I just felt so horrible, and I just canceled it. So yeah, it's just not for me. It's complicated. So I have now got a proper digital marketing agency doing it for me, and they specialize in startups. And yeah, they do these sprints, these fortnightly sprints, where, yeah, it's like they push something out; they learn from it; then they do the next sprint and so forth. And yeah, that's been working really, really well. I've got a lot of new random subscribers coming in. But I guess the next thing is to make sure that they are the right people and just tracking their-- I don't know what the term is called, but their lifetime, how long they're going to stay as a subscriber. But my churn rate is practically nothing at the moment, so I know my content works.
Stuart McLeod 00:33:46.802 Well done. That's good. That's good. Low churn is key.
Joyce Ong 00:33:48.831 Yeah, so every month-- yeah, so only two to five people cancel every month. Yeah, usually, two, and then on one month, I got five, which was-- yeah, because I did a really specialized content. Yeah, so that's a lesson as well, to make sure that I cover a broad range of content.
Stuart McLeod 00:34:07.279 And you do publish your numbers publicly. What brought about that decision?
Joyce Ong 00:34:12.487 Why not? So radical transparency, to build trust. It ticks a lot of boxes for me. So building trust, number one. And number two, if I'm going to attract content partners to collaborate with me, I've got to show that I've got revenue, right, in order to share with them. So I do rev share with some content partners because eventually, I want to be like a Skillshare, right? I want to attract creators, good people that can explain technical concepts in a simple way. I want these people. And I know there are people like that out there, right, people that have a nine-to-five job in some finance company, and they're really good at what they do, but it's just not enough, and so they come with me, and they make content together. Yeah, we'll see.
Stuart McLeod 00:34:57.768 Well, Joyce, I think that your future is very, very bright. I really want to say so many people feel trapped in nine-to-five jobs and feel like they're a cog in a very, very big machine, and that's unescapable, and you are an inspiration to those all over the world that feel like that they can't sort of escape the employee relationship with large organizations. So congratulations on taking that first step. I think it's amazing. And the content that you've already created and the steps that you've taken so far should be well and truly celebrated. So congratulations on all of that. And I think there's so much that you can do with your Tax Nuggets business. Do you want to-- do you want to give out the URL and make sure that there's-- we'll try and drive some subscribership to you.
Joyce Ong 00:35:51.817 Sure. It's taxnuggetsacademy.com.au.
Stuart McLeod 00:35:55.534 And we'll make sure that we'll get some UK content; we'll get some US content going and grow your subscriber base.
Joyce Ong 00:36:02.437 Oh, the sky's the limit, right?
Stuart McLeod 00:36:05.510 And well, we'll find an American accent up here somewhere for you.
Joyce Ong 00:36:11.774 For sure. Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's been great just meeting you and chatting with someone that's been through it all. Yeah, I hope you enjoy your heli-skiing.
Stuart McLeod 00:36:21.863 Oh, yes. Thank you, Joyce.
Joyce Ong 00:36:22.327 And be careful. Don't forget your helmet.
Stuart McLeod 00:36:26.349 Yeah, no, no, helmet, in the bag. That's all right. There's an enormous amount of snow coming, so which we're very grateful for. And we'll get stuck into it over this winter over the next 12, 16 weeks or so. But thank you for spending some time with us, Joyce, and good luck with everything. And I'll go and hit the subscribe button shortly.
Joyce Ong 00:36:48.391 [music] Wonderful. Thanks, Stuart.
Stuart McLeod 00:36:49.707 Thank you, Joyce. Thanks for listening to this episode. If you found this discussion interesting, fun, you'll find lots more to help you run a successful accounting firm at Karbon Magazine. There are more than 1,000 free resources there, including guides, articles, templates, webinars, and more. Just head to karbonhq.com/resources. I'd also love it if you could leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to this podcast. Let us know you like this session. We'll be able to keep bringing you more guests for you to learn from and get inspired by. Thanks for joining and see you on the next episode of the Accounting Leaders Podcast.