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blue-sky (verb)
: to offer ideas that are conceived by unrestrained imagination or optimism.
Hosted by Erin O’Toole, President and Managing Director of ADIT North America. Erin is the former Member of Parliament for Durham and former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. The Blue Skies political podcast explores issues facing Canada and the world in a format that brings together thought leaders for an informed and engaging conversation.
Melanie Paradis (00:01.719)
Welcome and thank you for joining us for this special Remembrance Day edition of Blue Skies hosted by the Honourable Erin O'Toole. But I'm Melanie Paradis, the president of Texture Communications. We're doing a little bit of a takeover here. I'm the former director of communications for Erin O'Toole. And over our years working together, I have heard Aaron tell countless stories of veterans. And I'm so honoured to be here today to guide a conversation with him for Remembrance Day.
Erin is now the President and Managing Director of Addit North America. But in your past roles, Erin, you served as a member of parliament, as the leader of the official opposition. You were also the first veteran in a generation to serve as the Minister of Veterans Affairs. You have been a lifelong advocate for Canada's military families, including through your work with the True Patriot Love Foundation. You've served, you've met veterans across generations, and you've stood at ceremonies from coast to coast to coast in Canada.
and around the world, but not every Canadian knows who to remember on Remembrance Day. Not everyone has someone in their life who served. So on a day that means so much to so many, we wanted to talk about some of the veterans whose stories have impacted you throughout your life and who still inspire you today. And maybe some of the Canadians listening will carry those stories with them today and in the years ahead so that they also have someone to remember.
So let's reflect on the individual faces behind Remembrance Day, Canadians whose stories have stayed with you year after year. And I'd like to start with someone whose story became a symbol of reconciliation and kindness. So Erin O'Toole, tell us a bit about George Emmerson, the Canadian veteran who offered chocolate bars to a Dutchman during the liberation, only to reunite with him 60 years later in the Netherlands.
What stays with you about that moment and that incredible reunion?
Hon. Erin OToole (02:01.282)
Well, first off, thanks, Melanie, for taking over. I don't mind texture taking over the blue skies for such a special commemoration because you're right. During the two minutes of silence at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, marking the armistice from World War One, we're all meant to think about service. Maybe it was our grandfather or great grandfather that that came home but lost comrades. Military members that fought in Afghanistan will think of the people they lost during
the longest conflict Canada ever served in. So sometimes we think the veteran is that 90 year old gentleman at the Cenotaph, but we have young combat veterans from Afghanistan in their 30s. part of remembrance is making sure that we just honour, commemorate and respect the service and sacrifice of our veterans. And I've had the incredible blessing. One of the biggest blessings of my public life was getting to meet
these veterans in all parts of the country, getting to go overseas with them. So George Emmerson, who you talked about, I was able to take him as one of the 70 veterans we took to the Netherlands to commemorate the 70th anniversary of Canada liberating that country. Something our country, our DNA as Canadians, we can't even appreciate because our country has never been taken over. We've never lost our liberty and been occupied, but the Dutch.
have and they will never forget it. In fact, some Dutch children know our military history better than our own children. And that's something that, you know, you and I are trying to do something about. But George Emmerson was from Port Perry, Ontario, and he told this story. He was a driver working with Army logistics as Canadians were liberating the Netherlands. And as they were pushing the Nazis out, going into the Shelt River Valley,
The Nazis were slowly releasing some of the Dutch men that they had taken prisoner and were using basically as slave labor while they were occupying that country. And so there was a lot of these displaced people wandering through and George Emmerson and his Canadian comrades found this gentleman named Hank. He was emaciated, had no bearings and wanted just to walk home. He was only a few years younger than George who at the time I think was 19.
Hon. Erin OToole (04:24.312)
So George sat him down, fed him, gave him one of their maps and helped him plan a route so he could go home where he was taken captive by the Nazis. And then for the long journey that he'd be walking, he wasn't calling an Uber, he was gonna be walking back. George sent him on his way with the rations he had, which were two chocolate bars. Fast forward 65 years, and George Emmerson.
was speaking about his service in the Netherlands at an event in Whitby, Ontario, just a little bit south of where he lived in Port Perry. And as he told the story of the Dutch gentleman, Hank, with the chocolate bars, a woman started crying nearby him. And as he finished his story, she came over and she said, my God, that was my father. So.
Melanie Paradis (05:17.309)
my god.
Hon. Erin OToole (05:19.966)
Hank had not only remembered the kindness of that Canadian soldier, a few years later, like thousands of other Dutch families, they immigrated to Canada. Never in a million years did they know they ended up moving to Whitby Oshawa area and were literally kilometers away from where George was living. And that daughter, Hilary Carnegie, grew up as Hilary Metzler.
His name was Hank Metzler. And by the time, thank goodness, Hillary heard George's story and knew that this Canadian soldier who had basically, she'd heard about all of her life because her family had relocated to Canada. They were able to unite Hank and George. By then, Hank was older and infirm and in a senior zone. And so every day for the next four or five years until Hank passed,
George Emerson would stop by on Remembrance Day with two chocolate bars and visit with Hank. So when I heard that story, I thought it was so magical that normally I wouldn't call members of the press gallery because I tried to avoid them most of the time. I called, I think, Tonda McCharles and I think somebody, maybe Mercedes Stevenson, who was at CTV at the time, and both the star and CTV.
captured this story while it was still possible. Hank passed away a few years later. George passed away at almost 101 just two years ago. But these moments in time are really the stories of freedom, the stories of liberation. So George Emmerson and the two chocolate bars and Hank Metzler and that connection between Canada and the Netherlands is something I'll be thinking of tomorrow and most days.
Melanie Paradis (07:11.418)
What a great story. You're going to have me crying by the end of this, I'm sure. What a great one to start with. Another story that you've shared before is that of Fred Barnard, of the Queen's old rifles, who landed in the first wave on D-Day and witnessed his own brother fall on Juneau Beach. What did Fred teach you about courage and grief?
Hon. Erin OToole (07:13.632)
Yeah.
Hon. Erin OToole (07:34.189)
Well, whenever you think of Juno Beach and D-Day, really the world we live in today was shaped by June 6, 1944. It was shaped by D-Day. And Canada, we often talk about us not punching above our weight, know, or punching our weight on the world seat. We had one of the beaches in the Normandy landings. You know, the Americans had two, Omaha and Utah.
Melanie Paradis (08:02.266)
Golden, your turn.
Hon. Erin OToole (08:03.662)
and the British had golden and sword and we had Juno. And people kind of forget the fact that we played an outsized role, quite frankly, for our nation. And of the people that spotted in the Normandy campaign, a very small relative number of Canadians landed in the first wave, literally what we think of as the iconic landing craft coming ashore at Juno Beach. But the Queen's Own Rifle is one of
you know, Toronto based regiment, one of Canada's oldest regiments was one of those and young Fred and Dawn Barnard from Toronto at the time, but I met Fred years later when he was older living in Uxbridge, they landed in the first wave on D-Day on Juneau Beach. And Dawn's memory of the day, which he recounted to school children for decades and
even told on one of my podcasts back in the day. His last memory was in the Landy craft looking over at his brother and him saying, give him held on. And the doors went down, they landed. They of course were under fire right away. And what many people call the longest day, that first day of the Normandy landings where we're the allies were trying to take back the continent of Europe from the Nazis. By the time
Fred had hit the beach, he saw his brother Don hit and rushed to his side and his brother was dead. And then he had to do Juno Beach Melanie. The very fact that Fred could compose himself and then fight for the rest of the day is unbelievable. And that story...
Melanie Paradis (09:47.044)
Yeah.
Hon. Erin OToole (09:56.311)
lived on because Fred did survive. In fact, Canada and Juneau Beach, Canada was the only beach and the only country to surpass its objectives that day in terms of the landings. Now, Omaha and some of the other beaches had unique challenges, but that was taken into planning. So the only one who actually achieved their objectives were Canada that day. But I just can't imagine fighting across Juneau Beach.
having just witnessed the death of your brother. so Fred told that story for many years. He obviously lived and struggled with it. He ended up living to be the oldest living Queen's Own rifles soldier or veteran. that in his final years when he couldn't get out for parades, his regiment would bring it to him. And years ago, just after this, for the 70th anniversary of the Landings and D-Day, the Queen's Own
traveled to Uxbridge and did a parade down his street so that Fred and his daughter and Tish McDonald and all the wonderful people in Uxbridge that had preserved his memory could join that special moment. I spoke about the Bernard brothers and the House of Commons and got so many notes on it because these things strike a nerve. They are what made our country.
Melanie Paradis (11:15.801)
Yeah.
Another that's just incredible. And it's so important how small towns play such an important role in making sure that veterans within the community are recognized and doing what they can to include them, like moving the parade down their street. That's it sounds like a small thing, but
Hon. Erin OToole (11:35.405)
You know, I say, you know, we all know the refrain from the poem, The Fallen, they shall not grow old as the that we that are left behind grow old. Those are what we recite in the evening in the morning, we will remember them. The next part of the poem goes on to say, they mingle not with their laughing comrades again, they sit no more at familiar tables at home. That
I always would talk about it in some of my speeches because the impact of war is far beyond the battlefield. It's that seat at the family table that was never filled again with a son or a brother or an uncle or increasingly a sister. That scar that really never heals is part of our duty of remembrance.
And to just think of the tens of thousands, what would their lives have been like had they returned? It's why no one wants peace more than a soldier or a veteran.
Melanie Paradis (12:41.335)
There's also Ed Groves, a member of the First Special Service Force, the famous Devil's Brigade. You've honored him before in Washington. What did you learn from Ed and why does his legacy matter so much to you?
Hon. Erin OToole (12:56.078)
Well, Ed is one I remember for a couple of reasons. One, in that he was living in Port Perry, and not only was I able to go to Washington and join the US Congress in awarding the gold medal to his unit, a Canadian US unit, I'll talk about in a second. But I also, as Veterans Affairs Minister, got to do an event at a Legion somewhere in Canada after the Washington event, and I chose my own Legion, Branch 178.
And Ed and a couple of other first special service force veterans who were still alive came and got a commemorative copy of the gold medal. Ed, I got to speak with several times because he was from my area and he always downplayed. He typifies most veterans who, I did what any other man would do, is all he would say often when asked about it. But what was remarkable about the Devil's Brigade, Melanie,
is we talk about the special forces now, JTF2 or the Navy SEALs in the US. The predecessor unit of both of those special operations units was the Devil's Brigade, the first special service force. A reminder that Canada, again, not only used to be an equal to the United States, we were a leader in this type of special operations warfare. The old movie, the Devil's Brigade is a classic if Canadians want to see the pride and
As I said in Washington, when I spoke as a brand new minister, was gone, what am I doing here? Harper wasn't invited to speak in Congress. I was as veterans and minister because of Ed Groves. And I used to say, whether it was bugles or bagpipes, lieutenants or lieutenants, we served and died alongside one another. And we should never lose sight of that despite tweets and tariffs. We should never lose sight of the true depth.
and quite frankly, heartbreak of the Canada-US relationship. Ed Groves embodied that, never wanting to talk about himself, saying he did what any man would do. I got to meet so many of those Devil's Brigade veterans and they were all so special.
Melanie Paradis (15:03.851)
It's amazing story. you're right, like especially in a moment like this when there's tensions between Canada and United States in terms of our trade relationship, it's really important that we reflect on all of the times that we have fought alongside each other throughout our history. And so many Canadian veterans have an experience of working alongside American veterans. And that is something that will bind our two countries together forever, regardless of politics.
Hon. Erin OToole (15:29.614)
100%. And I often say that level of dying together, heaven knows no love, but a man that dies for his brother. I'm misphrasing the paragraph from Luke, but to give your life for alongside another is pretty heroic. And it shows that the Canada US relationship is far more important than any one president, any one prime minister, any one era. It should transcend.
leaders in politics.
Melanie Paradis (16:01.751)
On Remembrance Day, there are stories that demand to be told, but that are often hard to hear. I'm thinking now about Chic Goodman, one of the Canadians who helped liberate Camp Westerbork in Holland, the same transit camp that Anne Frank had passed through. What did his story represent to you?
Hon. Erin OToole (16:28.878)
Chic Goodman was an exceptional example of how Canada helped stop the Holocaust and stop barbarism at its worst form of humanity. in this age of growing anti-Semitism and that age old hatred that you're seeing online and things against the Jewish people, we should give a moment to think about how Chic Goodman and his
and his Canadian comrades as they were liberating the Netherlands, they liberated this camp, Camp Westerbork. And Transit Camp was one of the camps where they would wind up the Jews and gypsies and other sort of people that the Nazis wanted to relocate and we then know exterminate under their horrific plans with the Holocaust. They would then be
stayed at this camp and then sent to Auschwitz or Bergen-Belzen or one of the death camps. And so when the Canadians liberated it, there were still people there that who by the grace of Canadian liberation were not sent and survived the Holocaust. And so we had a couple of survivors of the Holocaust join, Chic, myself, Jason Kenney, who was the Minister of National Offense, and Maureen Harper.
as we toured the memorial place, the end of the rail line in Camp Westerbork. And Chic described how at the moment he didn't realize how profound what they were doing was because he didn't know the extent of what the Nazis had been doing as an individual young soldier. He had signed up lying about his age like so many men had. But what he saw at that camp and the liberated
Melanie Paradis (17:57.849)
Thank
Hon. Erin OToole (18:25.238)
people, the Dutch Jews that were liberated, knew what awaited them. And so they were liberators, not just of a country, but of a people. at this time of year, we have to remember the depravity of World War Two. so Chic, and I know the next veteran we may talk about, were often reminders of that to me when I got to speak about it with them personally.
Melanie Paradis (18:49.692)
So tell me then about Colin Brown, who think you're alluding to, who helped liberate Bergen-Belsen. Though he never went into the camp himself, he stayed connected with the memory of that place and with you. What did Colin share with you about that time?
Hon. Erin OToole (19:06.402)
Well, Colin was an exceptional Canadian veteran. He was one of the ones we took to the Netherlands for the 70th anniversary of the liberation. And he was one that stayed in regular touch with me, as many did. I viewed it as a gift. He would send me articles. He knew I loved hearing his stories. And the photo, think, Mackenzie at the texture is going to be popping up some of the photos. The photo that the prime minister's photographer caught of me and Colin
talking in Holland is one of the ones that I'll always remember that moment with him. He loved to tell stories and he was always good natured. But when he spoke to me about Bergen-Belsen, he was actually one of several hundred Canadians that were then attached posted to the British. And so he was with the British army when they liberated the concentration camp of Bergen-Belsen.
memorialized tragically by Alex Colville, the Canadian war artist who painted a haunting image bodies in a grave, which I've sometimes shared on Holocaust Remembrance Day. 120,000 people were in that camp, 70,000 killed, murdered as part of the Nazi death camps. And while Colin said he didn't go in, as they approached the camp, the smell
it was something like it was otherworldly. And he would then talk about the importance of never, again, never forgetting that. And he said that some of the soldiers that went in, he was quite glad he didn't go in, because some of them came out and were never the same. And so what these young men did, both Chic and Colin had no idea that at the end of
their long march, they'd be encountering the worst of humanity. And these were many of the nightmares that stayed with many of the men afterwards, the mental injuries, the invisible wounds. Thank goodness we're so much better at treating them and getting support for them now. But back then you were told to go to the mess or the Legion, have a whiskey and forget about it. Well, a lot of them never did.
Melanie Paradis (21:26.405)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it would be impossible to forget seeing something like that. You've also always made space for Korean War veterans, men like Doug Finney and Bernie Lacey. How did their service impact you personally and what did it mean to you to have Doug as your constituent when you served as a minister?
Hon. Erin OToole (21:50.103)
This was one of my really special moments as veterans minister because just by chance, I, as you recall, Melanie got kind of appointed in the tail end of the Harper government to Veterans Affairs. And just by chance, my constituent, whom I knew as a veteran myself, and I'd been active as an MP with remembrance and things, Doug Finney was president of the Korean War Veterans.
Association, the KVA, and happened to be in Curtis. So I lived in Curtis, Doug lived in Curtis, and we were going around the country and even to South Korea together. And we're both guys from Curtis, which I thought was amazing. And Doug was amazing himself. So as the head of that, that association, he helped get the Korean War Memorial Gardens just outside of Brantford.
built and kind of reinvigorated remembrance of what often people call the forgotten war. You know, the forgotten war, because it happened just a few years after the World War II, and because it was kind of under the auspices of the UN, but it was not UN peacekeeping, it was a war, it was often overlooked. And many veterans of that conflict felt they didn't get the credibility.
from World War II veterans, even though some fought in both actually, and we'll talk about one of those later on. It was often forgotten. So Doug did a lot personally to overturn that. And I got to go to South Korea before becoming veterans minister and mentioned Doug Finney's name before I became minister because Harper sent me there to help finalize the free trade agreement, which was kind of stuck in their national assembly.
So our first retreat agreement in Asia was with South Korea, a country we helped liberate. 513 Canadians died in Korea, battled Kapyong, which the US president gave a commendation to the PPCLI for their bravery there. There's some incredible Canadian exploits at Korea. And my friend Doug Finney helped memorialize that better. And his friend, Bernie Lacey, I was giving Doug
Hon. Erin OToole (24:15.566)
and a ward in my writing office one day and Doug and Bernie Lacey, his Korean War veteran, they were sitting in their green blazers. And an artist who I used to put local art on the walls of my constituency office, Carol Matsuyama, an artist from Skugog, saw these two gentlemen sitting next to other with their medals and the green jackets that she painted a portrait of them.
Melanie Paradis (24:26.327)
Hon. Erin OToole (24:40.246)
which I then hung in my office for years to come. And Doug loved the fact that I was on his wall in Ottawa. Just amazing, amazing gentleman. And Doug passed a few years ago, but we were able to make sure he was in Sunnybrook and getting the care he needed.
Melanie Paradis (24:57.951)
It's wonderful. One veteran that I've heard you speak about extensively over the years in politics is Tommy Prince. And so you've always been passionate about sharing the story of Indigenous veterans as well. So what is it about his story that inspires you?
Hon. Erin OToole (25:15.64)
Well, Tommy Prince is a good example, Melanie, of some of those really unique veterans that served in both wars. So Tommy Prince served in World War II and then served in Korea as well. He was a member of the First Special Service Force, like Ed Groves, who we talked about earlier. So Tommy Prince was our most decorated Indigenous veteran, one of our toughest and most incredible. When he was with the First Special Service Force, it was
He was so good at scouting and sort of secretly observing German activities that one time he masqueraded in Italy as an Italian farmer out in the fields, but then came under watch by the Germans. So he then had to basically hide and go without support for several days before returning from his scouting mission. So he was loved by the men. He was known as the prince of the regiment.
course, a perfect name for a nickname like that. And what has bothered me this week, I see some of the rage farmers on online saying we shouldn't have an Indigenous Veterans Day. To hell not. He came back and had to sell his medals, Melanie, Tommy Prince, because he was destitute. They came home after fighting for our democracy and couldn't vote in their own democracy. So, you know, some of these
quite frankly ignorant people online that think recognizing that special services some sort of form of identity politics or wokeism. No, it's a recognition that we did not live up to our own values back when we were asking them to put their life on the line for a country that was running residential schools and was having worse than second class citizenship. So Tommy Prince, I spoke about by name on many occasions, including in Washington.
He was decorated by both the Americans and by Canada. He got the US Silver Star for his bravery with a joint unit. So he's one of our most exceptional veterans ever. And I'm just so glad that in recent years, Canadians are starting to give him the due he deserves.
Melanie Paradis (27:36.151)
Yeah, he definitely does. So many Indigenous veterans came back to nothing. There were no supports.
Hon. Erin OToole (27:42.329)
Peter Pegamabo in the First World War was probably the greatest sniper ever in the history of warfare. And same situation, he was from Parry Sound, came back to no support unless it was local in the community or with their First Nation. And generally second class citizens, veterans affairs, eventually when that was stood up, often disregarding and not giving them the benefits they were due. So some of the stories of their heroism.
Shining a brighter light on it now, I view it as my duty and I view it as our duty as part of reconciliation.
Melanie Paradis (28:18.186)
Yeah, absolutely it is. Let's bring the discussion a bit closer to home for you. You've talked about Bill Colville, who was wounded at the, I think it's Lemone River in Italy, and who helped inspire the Highway of Heroes LAV project, which I know is something that's so important to you. Can you tell us about his service and about the Colville family and who paid the ultimate price in losing him?
Hon. Erin OToole (28:45.09)
Yeah, no, listen, Bill Coville, although he always pronounced it Coville, although everyone in town called him Coville, which was quite funny, was an exceptional veteran. He fought with the 48th Highlanders in the Italian campaign manually. Another great regiment here in the Toronto area, historic. He used to joke they had 10 battle owners on their colours from World War II and he fought in seven of them.
until he was wounded at LaBona River and was taken out of the war, wounded quite badly. In fact, in one of my podcasts where I had him on years ago, he talked about hearing the medics talking about him as a goner, which obviously they should never do because he was not a goner. But Bill was the most remarkable guy in that he lived on this hill by 401.
It was actually a little drumlin right by the 401 on baseline in Bowmanville, Ontario. And he said to me, he wanted to donate his house to the Legion to build a monument to the Highway of Heroes because he watched after the war, Melanie, the 401 be built. That was his age. He watched it be built. He watched them build the Darlington generating station. He watched Southern Ontario kind of grow up from this hill.
And he wanted to donate that and put a monument because he said he was so moved whenever he saw the repatriation vehicles coming from Trenton to the coroner's office in Toronto. That was the Highway of Heroes. What's so special about the Highway of Heroes is there was no government edict to be on the bridges. There was no, yeah, that was passionate, patriotic Canadians showing love and support for families going through the hardest drive of their lives.
Melanie Paradis (30:29.84)
No, but we filled them.
Hon. Erin OToole (30:40.396)
right, who had lost a loved one, and were with the hearse driving down the high. It was such a spontaneous and Bill said, you know, we've got to mark this and, and he wanted to do it on his hill. Well, eventually we didn't do it on his hill, but just down the hill in the parkland adjacent to the Highway of Heroes, we installed one of Canada Company's light armored vehicle monument projects and we put a little parkette with benches and with
five historical plaques that you can read or, you know, use the RFID with your cell phone to see the 158 we lost on the ground in Afghanistan, to learn about the mission and to learn about the outpouring of the Highway of Heroes, all came from a World War II veteran who wanted to donate everything he had to remembrance. The final thing I'll say, the Coville family is kind of famous amongst Air Force circles.
because they're the basically saving private Ryan example for Canada. The three Coville brothers from Bowmanville were three pilots that all died during World War II. So a family lost three of their sons. And so there's a Rotary Memorial Park in Bowmanville named for the Coville brothers. They're also memorialized in the Branch 178 Legion.
But years, when I was an MP, I visited the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan Museum in Brandon, Manitoba with my friend Larry McGuire, a museum built by a veteran who'd come home, had success in the cattle breeding business and spent most of his money building a museum to the friends he lost. As soon as I came in, he said, I heard you're from Bowmanville, the Coville brothers. So amongst flyers, it's a very well-known family.
and Bill was their cousin. So here was small town Ontario, family stepping up, giving all their sons for their country and for the values it represents. So the Colvills will be in my mind tomorrow.
Melanie Paradis (32:47.208)
What an amazing contribution. Another young man from Bowmanville, Nick McCabe, someone who worked in your office and attended RMC and just completed a tour in Latvia. Talk to me about this next generation. What does someone like Nick represent to you?
Hon. Erin OToole (33:06.808)
Well, I'm glad because we have young servicemen and women right now. We have young veterans right now. Sir Nick McCabe was inspired in part by Bill Coville. And so I'm glad we're talking about him now. Nick was so keen to go to RMC that as he was preparing, he met with me, worked in my office because he didn't get in the first time he applied. So he applied himself and proved his marks, got in, determined to serve his country and helped us with
all of these commemorative events, met Bill Coville and really fell in love with our military history. And not only did he go to the RMC with a couple of young people from Durham, obviously their MP was a big promoter of this. So I kind of was a recruiting force for the RMC. Nick was on the military skills team that goes and competes at West Point every year in the Santas competition. Canada.
is usually in the top three or four out of 80 teams each year. That's how good we are Melanie when we give the people the tools they need. And Nick just returned from a tour in Latvia, served with the RCHA and he was just awarded top junior officer in the RCHA, in the artillery branch last year in Canada. So someone drawing inspiration from the Bill Covilles who are no longer with us.
Nick McCabe and young men and women like him are living up to that high standard our veterans set.
Melanie Paradis (34:38.645)
That's amazing. Some names are especially hard to say because they left us too soon. So let's talk about Julie McKenzie, one of the first people that you met in the military. She took an iconic photo of you and your friend during training that we have used again and again throughout your elections and throughout your political career. But tell us about the woman who held that camera. She died in a rescue crash in 2002. What would you like people to know about Julie?
Hon. Erin OToole (35:07.96)
Well, first, I'm glad and I hope Mackenzie can put both the picture of Mike Roach and I eating our box lunch in the truck because, know, with no phones for Gen Xers or the young kids would call me a boomer. I'm not a boomer. We didn't have phones, so I didn't have many military pictures and all my campaign managers were saying, get me something of you in uniform. I didn't have that many eating, eating an apple in the back of the truck. I never saw the second picture, which I hope we show.
of Julie falling asleep on the shoulder of a friend on the way back from days in the field. She took that picture and Mike Rote shared with me years later, the other side of the camera. Because Julie was one of, I think, six women on our platoon. Her room was right above us. So when I got to 15 platoon in Chilliwack, right after high school, she was one of the first people I met. And an incredible Canadian from Weyburn, Saskatchewan.
She was a piper. She went to Royal Rhodes Military College, which was on Vancouver Island. It's no longer there. So there's just RMC now. was a smaller one. And then she became an exceptional pilot. She flew on Sea Kings for a while before going search and rescue and flying Griffins. And she and her fellow pilot, Colin Sinosky, died tragically in Goose Bay on a search and rescue mission.
where they had a tail rotor failure, yet they were able to control the crash to the point that everyone in the back survived. But Julie and Colin lost their lives. And I'll never forget hearing a report of a crash on the news and everyone in the military listens because you're waiting for the names. And that was the first time it was ever someone I knew. This was before the Afghanistan war.
Melanie Paradis (36:41.053)
Hmm.
Hon. Erin OToole (37:03.358)
I, when I gave the remembrance address as conservative leader, I spoke about Julie in the house and I view it as my duty to keep alive the memory of exceptional people like Julie who died at 30, talk about potential, a great pilot, a great leader, what would she have done if she gave her life for our country? So it's not just World War II, Korea or Afghanistan, sometimes protecting and saving people at home.
Melanie Paradis (37:25.045)
They do. And it's important for all of us to continue to remember them. There's also Chris Saunders, who lost his life aboard HMCS Chicoutimi in 2004 at the age of 32, and Miles Selby, a snowbird pilot who died the same year at the age of 31.
Hon. Erin OToole (37:32.814)
It's a risky business and they put their life on the line.
Melanie Paradis (37:54.473)
What do remember about those two men and what they stood for?
Hon. Erin OToole (37:57.871)
Yeah, I didn't know them as well. They were all my class from the class of 1995 at RMC, but some had gone to Royal Roads or Collège Militaire Royale, CMR in Quebec. I knew Chris and met Chris through friends. He was a young family man, a naval officer, and was just bringing back from Europe a kind of a new submarine, although they were repurposed older British submarines, the Victoria class we have now.
He was on HMCS Chikootamie when it caught fire and he was part of the fire response crew. It had such drastic smoke inhalation that he was evacuated, but evacuated by helicopter to Ireland. So it's one of the things he died on route. And just tragic, very well liked, an officer with huge potential. And then Miles Selby.
was an exceptional pilot, had served in the Balkans as a tactical helicopter pilot before being, or sorry, as an F-18 pilot on the Kosovo mission, I believe, and then was selected for the Snowbird. So one of our best pilots to go on the display team and the demonstration team, tragically died in a training accident. And Miles was the only son of another Canadian, Royal Canadian Air Force pilot.
and I believe his father's name is Rolland. I got to see them a few times when our class put their portraits on the memorial staircase in Kingston at the Royal Military College where we honour graduates who died in the line of duty. It was heartbreaking to do that so young. They were 30, 32, 31, lives full of promise. And that's why we have one day a year, one week where we have events surrounding it.
I've spoken about each of them at Cenotaphs over the years as part of my duty to pass the torch of remembrance.
Melanie Paradis (39:57.843)
Another name that you remember is Darryl Caswell, a young dragoon from Bowmanville who was killed in Afghanistan. His brother Logan later worked with you on the Lav monument. What does Darryl's story and his family say to you about sacrifice?
Hon. Erin OToole (40:13.006)
I got to know the Caswell family quite well because while Darryl passed in 2007, many years before I was elected, he was just 25 when a very young Dragoon, the whole community really mourned his loss. The city base, the town shut down during his funeral and there was already a lot of people from Bowmanville on the bridges for the Highway of Heroes. But particularly after that, when
when Darryl Caswell drove past his hometown on the Highway of Heroes, the Bowmanville Zoo that existed at the time had the elephant limba on the bridge alongside the fire trucks. And families have told me those gestures meant a lot when they were in a fog of grief. To see that outpouring from strangers meant a lot. A few times people said, and there was an elephant in Bowmanville.
because Mike Hackenberger at the Bonville Zoo brought the Elfin out a couple of times. Just a gesture that everyone was surrounding them. And Logan Caswell, his younger brother, who only idolized his older brother who went off to the military, went off to war, was passionate about the LAV project and became kind of the driving force behind it in our community. So remember, I talked about Bill Colville.
from Bowmanville, who was probably in his 90s at that point. And Logan, Darrell's younger brother, was probably in his early 20s at that time. These were people that wanted to remember Darrell's passing. And so one of the panels at the Highway Heroes Monument tells Darrell's story. You know, one of the tragic losses in Afghanistan, we lost 158 on the ground in country, many since as well.
in what was the longest mission in Canadian Armed Forces history. So many small towns like Bowmanville, Clarington, a little bigger municipality that's in, were touched. They were the empty chairs at the familial table at home. And so the Caswells are always in the hearts of people from Bowmanville and Clarington on Remembrance Day.
Melanie Paradis (42:30.878)
For those who aren't from Ontario who are listening to the podcast, the Highway of Heroes is a long stretch of the 401, the busiest highway in the country. And at every overpass along the route, hundreds of kilometres long, people, ordinary civilians, first responders with fire trucks, with ambulances, etc., will come out and line, draped with Canadian flags, every single overpass.
If you can imagine, there's like dozens, maybe there's hundreds of overpasses. I'm not sure how many there are, but it seems like every single street there'll be people lined up and it's such an incredibly beautiful and powerful thing to experience. I hope to never have to experience it again in my lifetime because of what it means, but it is a beautiful thing that Canadians participate in. There'll be kids that would leave school early to go and stand.
Hon. Erin OToole (43:27.79)
Yeah, it was quite remarkable. One time my in-laws were here from Nova Scotia, Barb and Ralph visiting, and there was repatriation and they really wanted to show their support and be part of it. Because of course in Nova Scotia, they'd seen it, but had never been able to show their respect. What is lovely as well, Melanie, is even though that Highway of Heroes is a little stretch in Ontario, the 401, most of the other provinces have
basically earmarked and dedicated parts of their highway system to be the highway of heroes. So Nova Scotia has a highway of heroes. Many other provinces now honor their veterans and the fallen through a highway. And going back to the Devil's Brigade, the first special service force, the highway, think it's highway five, I may be wrong. Somebody will correct me from Alberta. But the highway that runs from Alberta, from Calgary to
Helena, Montana, which was the training ground of the First Special Service Force, is the First Special Service Force Highway on both sides of the border. And to her credit, when I went and drove from Calgary to Helena, Montana, a few years ago to do a true patriot love expedition, the signs on the Canadian side were cracked and kind of looking old and they were pristine on the Montana side. So to her credit, Premier Smith,
When I sent a note to one of her staff, boom, they were fixed. And Canada's was equally as prim and proper. Because I'm sure that's probably the only place in the world where there's a highway between two countries that reflect their military service together. So these, whether it's chocolate bars in the Netherlands, whether it's the loss of a friend you served with or the loss of your brother on Juneau Beach, the new
younger Canadians who are serving today, all of these things are why we wear the poppy. All of these things are what we should be giving thanks for and committing to remember when we have our silence here on Remembrance Day.
Melanie Paradis (45:31.304)
Yeah.
Melanie Paradis (45:41.364)
One more name that I'd be remiss not to mention is Nathan Cirillo, because his death was felt by every Canadian, but also among our allies. I will personally never forget touring the Commonwealth graves at Passchendaele, which is, if you get the chance to go to Passchendaele, do it. And I stopped in for a beer in a pub afterwards, the Passchendaele pub, as it's aptly named. And there in the corner of the pub was a photo of him.
It was like a small shrine and I'll never forget it. It was so moving to see this little pub in Belgium honoring him. They didn't know him, but they were so moved by what had happened that they honored him, in part because the war and the liberation of the region is still very present all these years later. the frost every year heaves up munitions, if you can believe it, still.
Hon. Erin OToole (46:38.082)
Yeah, yeah.
Melanie Paradis (46:38.639)
Each year, it's incredible and farmers pile it up on roadsides. And so it's still very present in their lives. They've not forgotten the role that Canadians played in liberating them. How did his death change the experience of Remembrance Day for Canadians?
Hon. Erin OToole (46:55.278)
Well, certainly I know from the Legion that the year that Nathan was lost was the largest year for poppy sales in the previous number of years because Canadians were all touched by that. Certainly I've spoken about it and was at his funeral in Hamilton. Two really interesting stories on Nathan Cirillo and his continued legacy, you know, literally guarding the tomb of the unknown soldier and dying.
from a terror attack on a sacred spot, it touched a nerve. So much so that when I went to Washington a year later at Arlington to lay a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier in Washington, in Arlington, the first thing when the superintendent of Arlington met me as a foreign dignitary, the first thing he said on behalf of
the regiment and the Arlington family minister let me pass along our most sincere condolences to Canada and the family of Nathan Cirillo, who was struck down in the role that our guard here plays at Arlington. And he was visibly moved when he said that to me. And it was six months later that it took me aback and it showed that how it resonated from the Passchendaele pub right through to Arlington.
The other thing is in the days after his attack, I started his death and the attack on Parliament Hill. I started getting emails from Canadians, same ones that were on the bridges saying, send him back to Hamilton along the highway of heroes from because he was in Ottawa where he was killed obviously and everyone knew he was another Argyle and Sutherland Highlander, much like Colin Brown, who we talked about earlier and their regiment was based in Hamilton.
at the foot armories, another Victoria Cross winner. And this spontaneous thing was happening and I happened to be having a beer with a classmate, a hero from Afghanistan, Bill Fletcher, who won the star of Military Valor, who is the aid military senior advisor to the CDS, Tom Lawson. We're classmates and we bumped into each other so many times, said, let's finally go for a beer. It ends up being the day after that tragic attack and he sends me an email. said, you probably don't want to go for a beer. said,
Hon. Erin OToole (49:20.436)
actually need a beer more than ever before. And I told him about this outpouring. And I told him and he knew from being an Afghan that how important the highway was for families for closure. So those emails mattered because they were going to fly him to Hamilton. And I said, look, I'll run it up my flagpole. That's Stephen Harper. You run it up your flagpole.
Melanie Paradis (49:21.939)
Thank
Melanie Paradis (49:39.858)
Yeah.
Melanie Paradis (49:47.282)
Yeah.
Hon. Erin OToole (49:49.399)
General Lawson. This will be important for the regimental family for the Cirillo family, and for Canadians. And I was so proud that Rebecca, Molly and Jack were on the bridge. I was at Pearl Sec at the time. So I was on Friday house duties. I think it was a Friday he was brought back. And my family was on the bridge in Bonneville along with with dozens of others. So Nathan Cirillo, it was 10 years last year, and I joined the family at a
commemoration in Ottawa. Hard to believe how quickly time goes, but he'll always be in my heart.
Melanie Paradis (50:25.21)
Yes, for so many Canadians. What do you hope Canadians reflect on this year when they pause for a moment of silence?
Hon. Erin OToole (50:34.766)
Well, we remember some of these names and appreciate the sacrifice and the empty family tables. When you think of the over 100,000 Canadians that have died in active service to Canada all overseas, it's because they believe in the values that our country has built upon. The rule of law, personal liberty, respect for others, respect for people to live.
unbridled by the aggression that we're seeing in Ukraine, for example. And I hope that we not only respect and remember that sacrifice, we look at military service as being noble, as a sign of good character and good citizenship, to be able to put your country first, to put it ahead of your own well-being. It seems like a quaint notion from the past, but it's what the foundation of modern democracies.
And I think we take it for granted way too much. So for a lot of young people that are looking for some meaning in their life, especially a lot of young men, I often challenge them to serve at a calling higher than yourself. I think this is a time this week for us to tell these stories of heroism, to celebrate the bravery of Canadians and to never forget those who didn't return home to the family tables.
And so thank you for taking me through just a few of the incredible Canadians I got to meet in my public life today.
Melanie Paradis (52:12.006)
Thank you, Erin. Thank you for your service to Canada. Thank you for your stories and for your commitment to keeping these names alive in our national memory. Thank you to all men and women who have served this country. We remember and think of you all on this important day. And thank you to all Canadians who take the time to remember, not just today, but always, lest we forget.
Hon. Erin OToole (52:34.198)
Lest we forget. Thank you.