Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Hello, and welcome to the Essential Dynamics podcast. Today's podcast starts with a somber tone. On November 28, 2024, my daughter Jade's husband, Jared Bateman, passed away peacefully at the age of 37 after a long battle with debilitating chronic pain and associated health issues. Today, I'm joined with my daughter, Lisha Allred, to help me dedicate this episode to Jared and the completion of his mortal quest. Lisha, thanks so much for joining me today.
Lisha Allred:Thanks so much for inviting me, Dad.
Derek Hudson:I know that our our thoughts are both tender at this time, but it just seems to be appropriate to, to share a little bit about, what we learned from Jared. Jared created a website to share a bit of his story. And in it, he included some of those most tender thoughts. And thought maybe just for this time, we could each pick one, talk about it for a minute. Have you got something?
Lisha Allred:I do. So one of the things that about Jared's experience that I think is an important thing for me to learn from and to carry with me is how well he masked his pain. So Jared was experiencing basically constant debilitating pain. And he says that "Some people think that I'm giving up. And if they were me, they would continue pushing themselves through life. Those people simply haven't fallen into my pit. They have no idea how dark, unbearable, and pervasive it is."
Lisha Allred:I think it's a really important reminder to all of us that we have no idea what the people around us are experiencing every day, what they're carrying every day. Every interaction we have might be with someone who's having their hardest week. And so I think it's an important thing for us to carry through to really have that sort of, like, empathy and grace and forgiveness of people around us. And just assume that we don't always know what someone's experiencing, even when we might think that we know them well.
Derek Hudson:I really appreciate you sharing that. And, those comments from Jared and actually the whole experience as, as we started to understand how much he was suffering reminds me of, the words of a hymn, that say, who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly in the quiet heart is hidden, sorrow that the eye can't see. And on one hand, Jared's, Jared's strength in coping with it was admirable. But sometimes we missed we missed that, this the pain that he was going through in him and, and we do miss it in other people. This, this comment also reminds me of, you know, we talk about the epic quest and so we we use, we use, the Lord of the Rings a lot.
Derek Hudson:And I ran across this, this letter that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote to someone who asked him if maybe Frodo had failed, because he wasn't the one that ultimately cast the ring into the into the fire. And, and Tolkien said that we can't judge where someone else's limits are.
Derek Hudson:He said, "judgment upon any such case should should depend on the motives, the disposition with which Frodo started out, and should weigh his actions against the utmost possibility of his powers all along the road to whatever proved the breaking point." He said "Frodo's real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way and to go on as far as, on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been."
Derek Hudson:One of the things that we've studied in Essential Dynamics is this idea of an outward mindset and it comes from the work of Terry Warner. And he tries to help us understand how important it is to see other people as people and try and understand their motivations and what they're going through. And I think I used the word grace and as we give other people grace, it's I find it hard because there's way more things to worry about in life if I think that other people have problems. But to treat the people as people, that's what you have to do.
Derek Hudson:And the price of love and a fellowship is, seeing and feeling the pain of other people. So thanks for sharing that. My, my quotation from Jared, which I was a little bit surprised to find. I don't know. I should have been surprised, but it's, it's just so much wisdom and just so few words.
Derek Hudson:If you want to live with no regrets, it's really quite simple. All you need to do is make the best decisions you can with the information you have. That way, you may wish for a different outcome, but you can always be satisfied with your process and effort. What do you think of that?
Lisha Allred:I think that resonates with me on a few different levels. I mean, as a mom, you know, like I I'm I rarely have it in me to do all of the things that I think I should be doing to be successful. And a lot of the time it's just doing the best that I can that day with what I have in the tank and with the information that I have. It's true a lot for me, in a work context as well. So I'm a management consultant. The apple did not fall far from the tree.
Derek Hudson:So proud of you, Lisha.
Lisha Allred:And often, often we set out on a project with, okay, this is all the information that we're going to collect to be able to help us come to some sort of conclusion or recommendation. And very rarely along the way, do we find all of the information that we're looking for. And generally speaking, we have to just say, okay, this is the best information that we have. And these are the best decisions that we can make with the information we have. And be content with being able to move forward in some way, in the best way that we can on that day with that information. And if we didn't do that, then things would never move forward.
Derek Hudson:We'd never move forward. That's right. And then the other, aspect of this resonates with me is this idea that you can feel good about the work that you do, even when you don't get the outcome that you want. And that certainly was the case Jared faced many times as he tried to get resolution of his health challenges. But ultimately, I think he felt that he fought the good fight.
Derek Hudson:And that's all any of us could do. And, as as I work with clients actually, we actually focus on the process because it's the one thing you can't control. And I appreciate that Jared left us with with his observations on that wisdom. So, Lisha, thank you so much for helping us make this episode meaningful - a meaningful remembrance of Jared. We'd like to thank all those who've supported and continue to support Jade and Jared, and continue to support Jade and their families and their friends at this challenging time. And, Lisha, thanks for all that you've done, in our family, to to help Jade and to help Jared and Jade. We appreciate the time that people are taking to listen to this. We share Essential Dynamics because we believe it gives us insight into foundational truths that can make our lives and the lives of those around us better.
Derek Hudson:And we feel that sharing some of Jared's thoughts today contributes to that and honors Jared's legacy, which we appreciate so much. So thank you, Lisha.
Lisha Allred:Thank you, Dad.
Derek Hudson:Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson, and this is the Essential Dynamics podcast. I'm joined today with my colleague from Unconstrained, Dave Kane. And we're here to record the final episode of Season Four and the final episode of the calendar year 2024. Dave, welcome, Dave.
Dave Kane:Hey. Thanks for having me back again. Yeah. 25 ish episodes and another year gone by. So that's that goes by really quickly.
Derek Hudson:That they do. And so now I've I've, we've come up with this sort of impossible task of trying to pull some of the thoughts that we've had over the last several episodes together, and in a bit of a summary as we close out the year, give people something more resonant to think about maybe.
Dave Kane:I think it's the time of the year when, you know, people stop and reflect about the past year and and sort of, you know, pause and and look at things. So let's take a look at what we did over the year and then figure out how do we how do we leverage that at this time and just sort of think about things. So I think over the year, when I look back, obviously, we talked a lot about, you know, our systems and systems flow. But I think if I had to sort of bucket it, I think we probably talked about systems thinking, and sort of identifying and resolving the root issues. And we had a lot of themes about overcoming stagnation and sort of that purposeful action.
Dave Kane:And then there's a a third bit about leadership, you know, sort of focus on aligning resources and and meaningful outcomes. So maybe if we take those 3 buckets, let's just sort of pick and choose from some of our episodes and see what we think. So when I start with systems, thinking, and flow, any anything jump to mind from the last 25 episodes? Is it the key things that stuck with you?
Derek Hudson:Well, one thing that really sticks with me is that when things go wrong, it's usually because we're experiencing systems dysfunction. And that's not supposed to be the way it is. Systems are designed to flow, but when human designed systems don't tend to flow very well sometimes. And so that's why, you know, we need to learn how to think, yeah, from a systems framework. And our our inclination is, I don't know what it is in our sort of limited finite brain capacity.
Derek Hudson:We wanna carve things up into little pieces and then solve little pieces. And the problem with the system is you can't do that.
Dave Kane:Yeah. It's it's something weird in our nature that we we tend to break things into silos when we get complicated problems. And then you go look at anything in nature, and it's it's a system. Everything works together. And truly good functioning organizations operate as a system.
Dave Kane:And and yet that's not where our natural mind goes to. It's break it into a small piece and chew on each one.
Dave Kane:Yeah. One of the things that we highlighted in one of the episodes, and they all blur together for me, is this concept that, our education systems don't teach system thinking. And for whatever reason, our sort of our board governance, executive leadership traditions don't tend to think of integrated systems as as much as individual subject areas.
Dave Kane:Yeah. Agreed. And there are very few courses along the way, and the more memorable ones are certainly the ones that sort of try to bring everything together. But it'd be nice to have a bit more of that. So for me, I think it was a quote that you threw out very early on, on one of the episodes I was listening to. And it was, if you have a systems problem, you need a system solution. And that that's the one that kinda resonated with me from the year.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. There's there's really no other way. But if you don't recognize something as a system problem, then you you don't have open to you the idea that you would use a system approach to come up with a solution. And I'll I'll just give a general example.
Derek Hudson:I can think of some specifics. So you think that there's something wrong in your organization because you're not getting the output that you want. Something is not flowing. And so you try to use the angle of accountability, and figure out who's screwing up. And then either fix them or get them out of the get them out of the system.
Derek Hudson:And it's very rare that one person is causing your problem. It's also quite highly likely that one person's behavior is in response to the system, the part of the system with with which they interact. And so if you swap the person out, you'll put a new person in the same system, get the same problem. I actually comes to mind now. I have a very specific example of that from my my Pricewaterhouse days, where I was engaged to research, do I guess, forensic accounting work to find out how much money the controller stole from the company.
Derek Hudson:Insurance company needed to know to or they needed to report to the insurance company so the insurance company could pay them because the controller was writing checks to himself and hiding the entries in the books. And so I I did that, and figured out that 4 or 5 different ways that we detected where where the the money was being fraudulently taken. And the company got their money back, and the person actually, I think went to jail. And then about 2 years later, someone from the, from my firm came up to me and said, hey, did you ever did you do a fraud investigation for this company once? And I said, yes, indeed.
Derek Hudson:I did. And, I said, what's up? They said, well, we have another one. The same company? Same company.
Derek Hudson:No kidding. Same position. So they didn't change the system at all. They thought, you know, they fired the dishonest controller and hired a new one. And the new one knew that, that they'd replaced a dishonest controller.
Derek Hudson:And rather than being encouraged to and being supported in changing the control systems, eventually, the new controller succumb to the temptation and starts stealing money from the company.
Dave Kane:That's amazing.
Derek Hudson:So that's an extreme example. That is extreme. Yes. Like, let's fix the system. We can like, there's a there's a reason people act the way they do, and usually it's because it's in the context of of something bigger.
Derek Hudson:I we were talking this morning and our team about the tendency of organizations kind of on the other side is to try and hire, sort of the unicorn person that's gonna, you know, drop in the executive position that is responsible for all the problems in the company. And we'll just if we hire this person who's really good with customers, really good on production, financial acumen, great to work with, good with people, good motivator, communicates well. We're just gonna hire that person and fix the organization. And typically, what happens is is that they can't survive in that organization. Or they
Dave Kane:get pulled into the quagmire with everything else, and they they can't step back because they're too busy fighting all the buyers that they got brought in to deal with.
Derek Hudson:Right. Right. So they use their skills, for the for the wrong purpose because they, they end up having to pick a side or something. So if you have a system problem, you need a system solution. So first, see it as a system problem.
Derek Hudson:And then second, look to a system solution. Now, you know, I guess maybe essential dynamics in this podcast has kind of things 2 things to offer in that regard. 1 is you have to think of it as a system. And 2 is, here's a way to think about a system. And essential dynamics is pretty simple.
Derek Hudson:And it's pretty accessible. And it's not everything you need to understand complex systems. But I think our point is you better you gotta get started understanding a complex system. So let's give you a simple tool with which to start.
Dave Kane:Oh, that makes good sense. K. So then let's move along to the next theme that we hit on in a bunch of episodes that I was on, and I know you you tackled elsewhere. And that was overcoming organizational stagnation, or as I think we always call it, you're stuck.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. Getting stuck. Or getting unstuck. Or or well, you get stuck and then you get unstuck. And like, part of that is this idea that you anything you can handle that's slowing production, disrupting your progress, disrupting your flow, you handle.
Derek Hudson:You solve the management solves the problem. And you get increasingly large and complex organization as you're on a growth path, and you solve problems until you bump into one that you can't solve. Or you bump into one that requires too much focus and energy that you don't have, or skills or competence that you don't have. And so then you get stuck. The other way that you can get stuck is that you could lose sight of the goal, or lose that energy flow that we've talked about.
Derek Hudson:And so you're you're stuck, not because there's some outside force acting on you, but you've lost the motivation. And and you think about that, the word motivation, you've lot lost the driving force, and so you are stuck. So maybe, you know, production's going out the door, but the organization isn't growing. People aren't being fulfilled. New customers aren't being helped.
Derek Hudson:And so you're stuck. You're stagnant. I mean, stagnation, we haven't used that word much, but it's a good one because, what's what's stagnant? Water that doesn't move is stagnant. And what's the opposite of that?
Derek Hudson:Flow.
Dave Kane:And flow. No. I think I think that makes sense because we we spend a lot of episodes talking about comfortably stuck and getting off the couch. And and as you start to say it, I think you're you're you're bang on with it's because that energy flow changes. Right?
Dave Kane:And you don't have that same energy and drive, and you're comfortable. And you've said it a number of times before. It's like, you know, change is hard. And and getting unstuck in some cases is is just what others didn't really want to take on. So
Derek Hudson:Dave, I agree with all of that. But I have been in conversations with people where they tell me 2 things. They tell me how hard their life is, and they tell me how hard they anticipated changes. And I'm like, well, one of those 2 hard things is productive, and the other isn't. And so maybe maybe choose the hard thing that produces some value, rather than the hard thing that's this the cycle of inertia.
Dave Kane:Mhmm. Yeah. And if we could just get you up to that macro level running the economy, then I think we'd be in good shape because a lot of that you see systemically across our productivity problems. And I think we talked about that one this year too of, just in general, I think that is sort of Canada at the moment, where we have this productivity problem, and we're not growing at the same rate as everybody else. And I think there's a little bit of that comfort in there.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. So we've talked we talked about it. We talked about, you know, leveraging discomfort, really digging in and feeling the pain and understanding it to the point where you're not going to take it anymore. I think the other thing is that there's the potential for more ambition. And we we talk about drivers and constraints, and I think ultimately drivers trump constraints.
Derek Hudson:If your driver is strong enough, you know, you just kind of blow through the constraint. And part of that is, you know, maybe you get to a different level of system thinking, not thinking, but just motivation and just blow through. So here we are in this country, where, I don't know, 25 percent of the world, half the world would move here tomorrow if they had the chance. And we have clean air, clean water, natural resources space, very warm and opening open culture, but poor economic performance, poor prospects for a lot of things because we what? Because it's good enough?
Derek Hudson:Well, it's not good enough for the immigrants who come in and don't get work. It's not good enough for the homeless people we're leaving behind. It's not good enough for the rest of the world who could be, consuming our clean energy instead of, you know, burning burning forests down and burning coal and stuff like that. We've got the opportunity to introduce technology that we've developed in Canada throughout the world, and we don't seem to have the drive and the ambition to do that all of the time. And, you know, maybe that's a that's a puzzle for season 5.
Derek Hudson:But
Dave Kane:Yeah. No. I think it is. Can I circle back? Take a little tangent here.
Dave Kane:You said that if your drivers are strong enough, they'll probably blow through the constraints. Yeah. Do you think the drivers are harder to build and get strength behind than it is to go and remove constraints? Like, are we not spending enough attention on drivers? Because we always go for the constraint.
Derek Hudson:I think, I don't I think that, unconstrained doesn't spend enough attention on drivers. There's an entire consulting industry and, academic line of thinking around the theory of constraints, which starts with the assumption that we have flow and it's being blocked by constraint. And there's a lot of good stuff there, but I I have to ask, where's the corresponding theory of drivers? Because when you get your why, and when you are bent on a purpose, and things that seemed insurmountable can be, can be quickly dispatched. And there's, you know, I think of so many examples just in in people's lives, and they're, you know, probably too personal to to share examples where someone is stuck, like, with an addiction or, you know, lack of motivation, and then they find their purpose.
Derek Hudson:And then they just become the person that they, you know, kind of were meant to be. And they they both threw stuff that used to be seen as such big limits in their life. And I think it's the same for organizations. If you think about, really cool stories of exploration, and you think about scientific achievement under stress, It's about the driver. You know, the constraint's been there for, you know, for 100 of years, and then all of a sudden, the the ingenuity comes at the right moment to to crack through.
Derek Hudson:So I I think there's lots lots to the, the question of, how do we how do we bring drivers into our lives, into our organizations? And, I mean, our our position, our hypothesis is that it's largely aligning with a purpose that's valuable enough to generate that kind of energy.
Dave Kane:Yeah. And then when we talked about entrepreneurs and and all those pieces earlier as well, You know, it's their drive, their energy, sole proprietorships. It's all on on the shoulders of the the one who started it a lot of times, and they try to you know, how do I have a system when it all flows through me? But I think that all kinda circles back to number 3, which is we talked a lot about sort of leadership and resource optimization, which, you know, I think we you coined the the management attention deficit along the way here this year. Right?
Dave Kane:So that's
Derek Hudson:Yeah. Management attention deficit. That's a that's powerful concept. So at some point in organization, there's the the focus and the mental energy on whatever needs to be done to improve the organization, and that can't be widely distributed in the organization. So it's sits on one person or maybe a couple of people.
Derek Hudson:And the problem is is that that the ways that can get spent are unlimited. The supply of it is limited, and so you can easily run a deficit. And if that's the case, then and you can't really make more management focus and attention, then you have to optimize its use. You have to deploy it for the right on the right things, the, you know, the leverage point or the most critical problem. And that's not that's not easy to do, But there's a there's a lot to that, and that might be the, like, you know, the leadership problem of of our modern day.
Derek Hudson:Since since email started, that might be the key leadership problem is management attention deficit.
Dave Kane:Mhmm. I'd agree with that. And then so there's management attention, focusing on the right thing. We talked a lot about that to stepping back, looking at your company's system, figure out where to put your your attention. But we also took the leadership side of looking at, well, how to be a good leader.
Dave Kane:And I think I remember something about leadership wasn't about the incentives. It was more about how you get people to see how they create value. And it was bringing in of the purpose, path, and people. It was integrating the people in with the other two pieces.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. So there's a book that we've referred to a few times, Drive by Daniel Pink. There should be more material out there, but I've spent way too much time as a CFO designing incentive pay systems or or monitoring them or executing on incentive pay systems with the assumption that if I can put more money in somebody's pocket based on some program, that they'll give me more. And I just don't think it's I don't think it's true. I believe in sharing value with employees, like, don't get me wrong.
Derek Hudson:But I was in a situation once where I was sort of arguing with board members that our people already are committed to this organization, and they're professionals, and they're giving you their all. And to to say that they're holding back for some, you know, additional percentage that they're holding back, and we're gonna pry that out of them with some kind of pay plan. I just... I said... I found it... I think I told them it was insulting. I thought it. I don't know if I told them.
Dave Kane:So that's that's then where as you've formulated this out, when you're looking at the people, it's what do the people need from the organization, and what do the organization need of the people? And when they're committed and already giving, then what you need to provide them is something different then.
Derek Hudson:Yeah. Definition of You need they need a sense of purpose. They need a sense of autonomy. They need, ability to be creative and to see the value of their work flow through to the value of the organization.
Dave Kane:Yeah.
Derek Hudson:And they wanna and they wanna be respected for their efforts and compensated, but their intrinsic motivation is way more powerful.
Dave Kane:Yeah. I agree. Okay. So those were the 3 kind of buckets I thought about when when I was kinda reflecting on k. That that year went by quickly.
Dave Kane:The one piece that that I find I'm using most often is still go build the birdhouse. Building the birdhouse piece. What's what's the key piece in there for you?
Derek Hudson:So I think there's 2 things. I think you picked up on one stronger than I do, which is, like, let's just have a bias for action rather than analysis. Absolutely. Rather than analysis. But the other thing for me is, is that you gotta be working on stuff that creates value.
Derek Hudson:And and so what I see with, a lot of management techniques, all the latest books and stuff like that is, you know, that might be, your your critical constraint right now, in which case you should devour that stuff and go fix your business. But if you don't know what your critical constraint is, don't just, pick the flavor of the month and implement that as a as a management system. You have to figure out how you create value and then create more value. And so the birdhouse metaphor is, in the story, if you want birds to nest in your yard, you have to build a birdhouse. No no design, no looking at plans, no research, no hoping, no painting pictures of birds that gives you birds, but see, you gotta build a birdhouse.
Derek Hudson:And so, yes, action, and yes, action that's focused on the thing that's gonna make the most difference in creating value. And so all of the stuff that we talk about through a hundred plus episodes in Essential Dynamics is all good stuff. But for any person or organization that's trying to trying to make a major change, there's one thing that's getting in the way right now, and you gotta figure out what that is, and that's your birdhouse.
Dave Kane:Mhmm. Go build what truly matters. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah.
Dave Kane:So with me, it was there's that element of of stop overthinking it. Don't, just just move it forward, stop endlessly planning, and then just that whole purposeful action side of it, stood out to me. But but you're right. So as we kinda bring the year to a close, what do you do at year end when you're kinda stepping back, reflecting on these kind of things using your your framework?
Derek Hudson:So one thing I like to do, and I like to do it particularly when I'm a little bit overloaded and stressed, is make a practice of identifying things that have gone well, things that are really cool that they happened, and focusing on that, at least as much as the to do list. Because it's pretty easy to I mean, I can think of so many good ideas. I can think of more good ideas in an hour than I can do in a year. And that's that's on top of the ideas that other people have for me, of things I can do. And so that gets overwhelming, but just to say, well, that happened, that was cool.
Derek Hudson:You know, when when our kids were at home, my child did that, that showed growth and maturity. I'm grateful for that and surprised. But, you know, the client is starting to really come in come into their own, and I'm glad for that. And I, you know, we landed this big contract, and glad for that. And I personally am reacting better in stressful situations, and I'm glad for that.
Derek Hudson:So so that's one thing. And then the other thing is when you after you do that, forget the to do list for a minute, and just kind of dream. Dream, like, what is system flow? Where could that take you? If there wasn't sort of so much friction in what you're trying to accomplish, and you were lined up with value where your customers were, the people you're working with were, like, where could that take you?
Derek Hudson:And then and then you wouldn't be you wouldn't want that to be, well, we've arrived and we're complacent. It's like, if we can do this, what else can we take on? What other value can we bring to the world? That's where I would go.
Dave Kane:That's so positive and optimistic. So I do I do the same. You you always sort of reflect on the positive pieces of the of the year. And then as as I start to transition into, okay, what's next year? So somebody really smart along the way sort of said and that key question of, why do you put up with that?
Dave Kane:And I I kinda take that approach of you look at these things along the way. And in the case of what we were looking at, you know, are you stuck? Could the organization do more? Or even just, you know, in my career or or or just other initiatives. And it's sort of like, why does it have to be that way?
Dave Kane:Why do I have to put up with that? And and I don't. And then you get into the mindset of, okay, how do I change that? And how do I bring about and maybe it's removing the constraint mindset. But, it's just that one question of why do you put up to that?
Dave Kane:Yeah. So you don't need to.
Derek Hudson:Those those are the 2 questions. There's the driver's question, which is, like, what could we do if we had flow? And there's a constraint question, which is why we put up with this right now. Yeah. There's both that's those are both crash so so Dave, maybe I'll take it back at this point, or did you have anything else?
Dave Kane:No. I'm just trying to figure out why it is. Everything I it comes to my mind ends up back in the Essential Dynamics framework here.
Derek Hudson:Oh, we plan it that way.
Dave Kane:Everything fits back into it.
Derek Hudson:We plan it that way. So here we are, are wrapping up 2024. Like to thank, Dave, for all your work in these last few episodes as, we've made you step up a bit. Brynn Griffiths, thanks very much. And all our guests that we had, this year.
Derek Hudson:It's we're coming in on Christmas time, and so I'd I encourage people to look at the Christmas special, which is a connection of essential dynamics to the Christmas story. We won't go over that. And maybe with this one, we'll, we'll acknowledge that, in the original version of this episode, we acknowledged and dedicated this episode to the memory of my son-in-law, Jared Bateman. And, top of this episode, we discussed some of his advice, which is consistent with things we're trying to understand. And so we're on a quest, but we don't have to travel alone.
Derek Hudson:And I'm really grateful for fellow travelers and would encourage everyone to to appreciate the people that they work with and they live with and that they love this time of the year. And say to everyone, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and consider your quest.