Oxide and Friends

Revisiting an annual tradition--Books in the Box! Bryan, Adam, and the Oxide Friends share book recommendations (and--sometimes--anti-recommendations). Take a listen if you're looking for your next read.

In addition to Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal, we were joined by some guests noted below:

Previously, on Oxide and Friends:
Other Notes:
From Bryan and Adam (and others)
From Oliver Herman
From Tom Lyon
From Dan McDonald
If we got something wrong or missed something, please file a PR! Our next show will likely be on Monday at 5p Pacific Time on our Discord server; stay tuned to our Mastodon feeds for details, or subscribe to this calendar. We'd love to have you join us, as we always love to hear from new speakers!

Creators and Guests

Host
Adam Leventhal
Host
Bryan Cantrill

What is Oxide and Friends?

Oxide hosts a weekly Discord show where we discuss a wide range of topics: computer history, startups, Oxide hardware bringup, and other topics du jour. These are the recordings in podcast form.
Join us live (usually Mondays at 5pm PT) https://discord.gg/gcQxNHAKCB
Subscribe to our calendar: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/c_318925f4185aa71c4524d0d6127f31058c9e21f29f017d48a0fca6f564969cd0%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics

Adam Leventhal:

And Bryan is here.

Bryan Cantrill:

Hello, Adam.

Adam Leventhal:

Hello, Bryan. I have been

Adam Leventhal:

watching the recording of I I don't watch a lot of recorded meetings. I did watch a recording of us playing Fishbone.

Bryan Cantrill:

Did you? Yeah. I'm loving it. There were there's been some good moments in there. Were you were you were watching there's an a game where we raid some extraordinary things happen, which I think is is happening.

Bryan Cantrill:

I mean, that's that's kind of every game at this point.

Adam Leventhal:

So it's it League is really stepping up skating. No. It's from, from last week when it was you, me, and Alan.

Bryan Cantrill:

Was that only last week? No. That that makes sense. That, I mean, that that tracks it's it's been, you know, I I had this this idea to you as you know, I've got an 18 year old at Washington State. And, you know, we're we're kind of pricing out travel for family weekend or whatever.

Bryan Cantrill:

Like, we should we're gonna take three of us. We should drive. So we we drove to, to Pullman, Washington and back Wow. In a weekend. Wow.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. It's about 2,000 miles as it turns out round trip. I mean, absolutely gorgeous. But as a result, several months have passed since last week in my mind. I I I have lived several lives, and time has now, has become completely distorted.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. You, I mean, you grow up as a you grew up as, like, road tripping people. Right? Like, because because growing up in the in the Northeast

Bryan Cantrill:

I am of a road tripping people. Yes. I am of a road tripping people in the American West, I would say. Like, this is Right. Right.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. This is, I I don the garb of my people as Right. We I do remember my sister and I, at some point, I think maybe I was 18, when we actually put an ultimatum, like, there were to be no more vacations within Colorado. We felt we had seen every corner of the state of Colorado that there was nothing like And actually in hindsight, we actually had not It's actually pretty car we had not seen. It's a big, big and beautiful state.

Bryan Cantrill:

No. It is. It is. You know, you're absolutely right. I I was really just observing the traditions of of myself.

Adam Leventhal:

I'm just saying because growing up in the Northeast, like, if we got in the car for two and a half hours, that was a really long trip for us.

Bryan Cantrill:

And Yes. Right. Cross it over several Munson Dixon lines. Munson Dixon lines. Excuse me.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's right. Exactly. I mean, it's like it's like it's like it's like driving across the Baltics. I mean, you just yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Totally. And, you know, my my mom is from Rhode Island, grew up in Rhode Island. So in Rhode Island, if you're going all the way up to Providence, like, that's a overnight trip, you know, in the in the great state of Rhode Island. So

Bryan Cantrill:

In the great state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. Yes.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Precisely.

Bryan Cantrill:

So yeah. So I that was only last week. That that that's amazing. So you're you've been watching the Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

I I and I will actually okay. I would like to just say this because someone in the chat is saying that a fantastic school. Cynthia is saying this in the chat, which it is. I would just like to say this. I'm gonna get some free college counseling advice, Adam.

Bryan Cantrill:

You know Good. You never know why you're here. You never know why you listen to this thing. And this could be the the this this is the the news you can use. Okay.

Bryan Cantrill:

So here's some free college counseling advice. My 18 year old is extremely happy at Wassup. Loves it. Loves it. Loves it.

Bryan Cantrill:

And one of the things I kinda realized belatedly is that, the school kind of is is a leader in in happiest students. There are like the Princeton Review compiles a list of like, here are the 25 schools in which kids are the happiest students are the happiest. And it's not like a conventional list. Like it's very surprising the schools that are on it. It doesn't really, it doesn't track a geography.

Bryan Cantrill:

It doesn't track their public, their private, their small, their big. I mean, it's kind of all over the map. But I have talked to, we've got a couple of alums of those schools. Things like Kansas State. We've got an alum of Kansas State here at Oxide, and I was asking him about it.

Bryan Cantrill:

I'm like, know, Kansas State's on this list. He's like, you know what? I loved Kansas State. I thought it was great. And there So there are bunch of those.

Bryan Cantrill:

Anyway, that's what I'd like to volunteer. If you've got an eighteen year old, as you know, you've done this recently, it is an extremely anxiety producing process. And part of your objective as a parent is like, maybe I can help you find a spot where that is a viable landing spot where you're gonna be happy. That's kind of what you wanna help them find. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. So you know, I'll to

Adam Leventhal:

send I will I will I will offer some college counseling advice, which is less useful, but which is one of the schools my son got into was UMass Amherst. And UMass Amherst is known I don't know where they rank on the happiness scale, but for the they're known for having the best food of any college. Okay. And in fact, like like so much so that like they do the standard interview with students. Like, why did you come to the school?

Adam Leventhal:

And they're like for this and that. But like, obviously also for the food, like so much so. I'm like, I am a little bit worried about, how my son eats, and it's delightful that he would, potentially benefit from this. But it got to a point where I'm like, can someone talk about something about the school other than the food, please? Like, I'm I know that it's a great school,

Bryan Cantrill:

Let's just move on. That's interesting. You know you're kinda taking opposite tasks. Because I'm feeling like we need to do a campus visit. Like, we don't need to do a campus visit.

Bryan Cantrill:

I've already eliminated it. Like, it doesn't have, like it doesn't have the academic programs that I've decided. No. No. I I just let's give it another shot, and let's actually

Adam Leventhal:

sample the fare as it were. Yes. Yeah. But but he did not go to UMass Amherst for I don't really understand why. But

Bryan Cantrill:

I

Adam Leventhal:

Anyway, he's very happy.

Bryan Cantrill:

There there you go. So, that's that's the joke. Anyway, I was, you you know, you never know why why you tune in to Oxide and Friends. You get to come up for the books in the box, stay for the college counseling, or maybe the maybe the way around. There we go.

Bryan Cantrill:

Or or or certainly the food. I I

Adam Leventhal:

did find it delightful that both of us stumped for what was happening. We're like, you know what? We have not done in a minute.

Bryan Cantrill:

You know, I was actually I what we were stumped, and I'm like, god. I really want to suggest the books in the box. But Adam is just gonna be like, oh, come on. That's so but then so then you suggested it, which is great. It was exactly a year ago that we did all last Books in the Box.

Bryan Cantrill:

So I think we are we are well within our rights to do Books in the Box. This is not merely us not having another plan for tonight. It is more than that.

Adam Leventhal:

It is also us having a plan, another plan for the night. But but it has been a minute, and I do appreciate these, and I've been, struggling for books to read. So I'm like, I'm looking forward to it.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. So what let's kick it off. Okay. Well, actually, first, to rule monger a little bit. So, last year, you were I think rightfully no.

Bryan Cantrill:

No. You were rightfully insistent that, like, hey. We've got to have read the book. You had maybe a bad experience with John Romero. Is that right?

Bryan Cantrill:

Was it is it is

Adam Leventhal:

it Yes. Yes. No. I'm I'm glad that the shadow of, doom guy Yes. Is is cast long.

Adam Leventhal:

But, yeah, someone had recommended doom guy, and it was not out yet. And I got it, and I read it. And I I think if you have read the book, you would not recommend it. That's my assertion.

Bryan Cantrill:

Right. So we okay. So which I think is good. I think that's very reasonable. I think you got to have I think it's important that one has read the book, not merely aspiring to read the book.

Bryan Cantrill:

But I I feel like I found a a bit of a loophole that and and and but feel free if you so here's the loophole such as it is. I because I got a couple of books that are on my queue. Okay. But those books have been recommended to me by Oxide and Friends listeners and not on Books in the Box. So I feel and I'm I'm gonna Legal.

Adam Leventhal:

I say legal.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. There we go. That's that's what I'm looking for. That's what I'm looking for. So I feel like we've got, like, a

Adam Leventhal:

Literally, the case on this on on the John Romero book because it wasn't out yet when we were talking about it. Right. So it it had been unread by I mean, maybe

Bryan Cantrill:

someone read it. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And then I wanna also start off with did you read any books from previous lists?

Bryan Cantrill:

Did you and I okay. So Tom is asking Pat, what about currently reading? We've already decided that currently reading is eligible. So you got I think you could say, if you if you feel you've read enough to we're gonna know, we'll put it back on you. If you feel you've read enough to recommend it, then you can recommend it.

Bryan Cantrill:

So

Adam Leventhal:

That's right.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's right. That's legal. The did you read any books, from previous episodes, from previous years?

Adam Leventhal:

Like, I'm sure that I have. I did not prepare that in my notes. I'm gonna go back and find the answer. But I'm wondering, Brian, did you I

Bryan Cantrill:

as I What an excellent question. Curious. I never felt like I would ask. Did you, I I I find myself do you I I I gave a response that an LLM would give to a question earlier today, and I was just like, I the it's not just, but also. I literally cannot use that sentence construct anymore.

Bryan Cantrill:

And then and similarly, I feel that whenever I'm praising someone's insightful question, I feel like I'm an LLM. So I you know, it's really it's causing me to question a lot of things. So I read the, the Mouse Driver Chronicles, which I think Ian recommended. Oh, I actually had started I started that. I I bought the book I mean, and it was sold as a goofy book.

Bryan Cantrill:

Book. It was this is like this is not sold as, literature. This is sold like this is kind of a a quirky, funky little book. But this is like Forrest Gump starting a company in San Francisco in that it is I mean, the guy is very earnest, but also they've got no idea what they're doing. They but they also know what they they've got no idea what they're doing.

Bryan Cantrill:

And their idea is terrible, and they also know that their idea is terrible. It's it the whole thing adds up to something that is, like, strangely endearing. Like, it shouldn't work, but it kind of does.

Adam Leventhal:

So And Leah, I'm and from I don't think it's too much of a spoiler because as I recall, it's on the cover, but, like, they their insight is make a mouse shaped like the head of a golf driver.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. That is their startup. That yes. Yeah. And and and, I mean, and to their credit, they learn why this is, like, actually, why there might not be a lot of new company formation around novelty mice, say.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Why this is not a this is not a venture class business, as they say. So the I I read that. Enjoyed that. And then one I also read from I rose I read it from Books in the Box three in 2023.

Bryan Cantrill:

Little handy handy dandy mnemonic device there. Books in the Box three from 2023. California burning, which I thought was and I I definitely I enjoyed cal I mean, enjoyed. I mean, how much do you enjoy California burning? It I've kind of felt like it had a I it took me too long to read it, I I would say, because I was like, the the the the subject is kind of grim.

Bryan Cantrill:

But it was a very interesting history of of regulation in California. And I kinda think that Katherine Blunt I I think it's well written, just the author. I think she herself got like, oh god, this is just kind of this whole thing is so dispiriting. Let's just wrap this thing up and publish I just feel like there's there's a sense to which it's I I think there's actually more books waiting to be written on this, but I thought it was good. So I

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. One book I've been trying to get my hands on since Tom recommended last year was Shift Happens, the the Kickstarter. Yes. That is completely unobtainium, and I scout it on eBay, and it's always, like, $650 starting bid.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. That looked enticing. But I also knew that I was and so, yeah, that you've not been able to yet lay a hands on it.

Adam Leventhal:

Exactly.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Well, that let me know if you get and so if you get it, is that like is it a museum piece? I mean, how does that work? You

Adam Leventhal:

Exactly. Well, depends if I expense it. But we can we can

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, oh, okay. You know you know, I mean okay. Serious question. What is a $100,000,000 series b for if not for, like, books on bespoke coffee table books on keyboards?

Adam Leventhal:

Okay. Excuse me while I go make some purchases. Exactly.

Bryan Cantrill:

That sounds good. Alright. So what do you I know we've got some books that you don't both read this year, but Go ahead.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. But first of all, folks, feel free to raise your hand. Yes, please. Hop up on stage and and and tell us a book that you've read or at least started. I don't know.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's right.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. I was looking back to my list.

Bryan Cantrill:

Do you

Adam Leventhal:

how do do you track your books or do you I mean, you have a much better memory than I do, but do you write these things down?

Bryan Cantrill:

False. No. I actually go through I have to

Adam Leventhal:

go through my Amazon orders

Bryan Cantrill:

or whatever because I I also think no. The other problem is, like, I I can't remember exactly when like, did I read book last year? Did read this year? Have I already talked about it? Have I not talked about it?

Bryan Cantrill:

So no. No. I had to go definitely had to go refresh my memory a little bit. And So

Adam Leventhal:

what I read that I I don't think came out of Books in a Box, but I think came out of our discussion with Randy Shope where he was talking about his dad's time at Xerox was Fumbling the Future. Yes. Have you read this? I can't remember.

Bryan Cantrill:

You know, I have not. And I it's one of those things I've been meaning to for a long time. I haven't. And, yeah, what'd you think?

Adam Leventhal:

It was terrific. And, I sort of got thrown off because, like, the publication date of it was 1999. It didn't make any sense, but it's actually it was actually written in 1988, about Xerox PARC and the corporate structure of Xerox and their key innovation and just all of the both the innovation that happened at PARC and their structural inability to absorb that into their business, even though they felt it felt like an organization that was as well suited to, to surpass or to overcome the innovator's dilemma as any has been. So I found it very, very interesting.

Bryan Cantrill:

That is interesting. And, so and you have you read Dealers of Lightning?

Adam Leventhal:

No. No. No. No. I know I know that this is like the other one, and I I I haven't caught and that's more modern one.

Adam Leventhal:

Right?

Bryan Cantrill:

Dealers of Lightning is slightly more modern, but I I would love to read Fumbling the Future. So one of these things it's kind of been I remember actually you know, I remember it. We used to have it at Walden Software back when I worked. Back when I was working working retail. You know?

Bryan Cantrill:

I I this is like an experience. It's like, I feel it's like kinda absent now for for teenagers. I mean, they they work restaurants and stuff. But I was yeah. I was working working retail in the Walden software.

Bryan Cantrill:

I had I had defected from the Babbage's upstairs in the Cherry Creek Mall. And I'd because I didn't like the fact that they I felt they had they they were gonna stop selling the compilers at Babbage's. And, you know, I quit and protest. So it just

Adam Leventhal:

it was a walk away kind of decision.

Bryan Cantrill:

There was there was a there was a one a one man, really boy walk out, of Babbage's over no longer selling Borland c plus plus for $495.

Adam Leventhal:

Can I ask you, where are you now Babbages?

Bryan Cantrill:

Where are you now Babbages? Exactly. Well, look where it got you. Like Babbage is not even like a meme stock. I mean, they will be looking at at actually, no.

Bryan Cantrill:

I think actually GameStop I think Babbages and GameStop may be the same, like, corporate DNA ultimately. No. I like I think

Adam Leventhal:

Really?

Bryan Cantrill:

I think that might be right. I the it's yeah. It's a merger with Babbage's merged with software, etcetera, and Funko to There you go. God, software, etcetera. Those those heated crosstown rivals.

Bryan Cantrill:

I can't believe that they merged. Talk about a Yeah. A Cloudera and Hortonworks situation. Yeah. The the but so I fumbling the future from from the the the the books section of of Walden software.

Bryan Cantrill:

Needless to say, got rid of the books, then they got rid of all the software, then they got then the then everything died. So anyway.

Adam Leventhal:

Well, and maybe also needless to say, not on Audible, not on the Kindle, actually had, you know

Bryan Cantrill:

Is that right?

Adam Leventhal:

And I don't think even in print. So like I got that's another eBay purchase.

Bryan Cantrill:

Is that that's not in print. That's kind of surprising. It feels like that would be that's like close to being an evergreen. I guess not. I guess it didn't quite quite make it.

Adam Leventhal:

It's sort of typeset in this funny way. Like, it felt it feels like it's typeset, you know, as opposed to, like, off of a laser printer or something with some irony.

Bryan Cantrill:

I just But,

Adam Leventhal:

anyway, I'll I'll I'll I'll give you my coffee.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. Hot take. Because I also feel like fumbling the future is a term that I feel, like, I use because of that book even though I've not read the book.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. I think that's right. Like, it can't it can't have been that that was, like, a term before then. Right?

Bryan Cantrill:

I don't think so. I mean, I think fumbling the future invented the term fumbling the future and then fumbled it. Fumbling the future. Fumble the future or fumbling the future. Am I wrong?

Bryan Cantrill:

I mean, I'm not sure. I I No.

Adam Leventhal:

Seems right.

Bryan Cantrill:

Little Buffalo Buffalo Buffalo action, but I think that the Exactly. Because I really I I use that term because of the book and have not read it. So alright. This is this is gotta be and I think you even I think your copy is right now sitting on I already gave you my copy. No.

Bryan Cantrill:

I can't give you my copy anymore. It's sitting on I do love that the the the cover is and I guess in 1988 or whatever, it felt like jaunty to have

Adam Leventhal:

The the like wonky font.

Bryan Cantrill:

The wonky No. It's like the the it's the it's like the carnage. We're gonna rotate these letters a little bit Yeah. To denote that the word future has been, like, nuts. I mean, fumbling, though.

Bryan Cantrill:

It looks like it's been kind of, like, maybe hit hard, rear ended maybe. I don't know. I don't know. So I get that that one. You enjoyed a well written book, I mean, you felt?

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. No. It was good. It was it it was, like, interesting to read. Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Well I mean, you know how these these business histories are. This is not Right. Literature, but, like, yeah, it was very readable.

Bryan Cantrill:

That sounds great. That okay. Yeah. Definitely on the list. So and maybe on on that in that vein, do you are you should I go or do you wanna go?

Bryan Cantrill:

Like, how do we Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

You go, and then we've got Oliver Oliver waiting patiently. Oliver will get you after Brian's recommendation.

Bryan Cantrill:

So I was kind of hinting at this a year ago, but I had just watched the so I was reading The Big Score by Michael S. Malone. That had gotten me into a bunch of things. And I had read the oral history Watched the oral history of Jerry Sanders from AMD and was kind of getting into that history. And that took me to the oral history of Hector Ruiz, who was Sanders' anointed successor at AMD.

Bryan Cantrill:

And so I read Ruiz's book Slingshot. That was really interesting. I feel like this chapter of AMD is absolutely fascinating. And you're getting Ruiz with his own retellings. There's a little bit You gotta put asterisks on it.

Bryan Cantrill:

Like, kinda need to get something that It would be good to get a different perspective as well. But Ruiz's personal story is amazing. Grows up basically in poverty in Mexico and becomes the CEO of AMD and makes these, what are in hindsight, really gutsy decisions. One is to buy ATI and to merge with ATI, she felt had to be done. And then the other was to spin the foundries out of AMD, which they first had to fight Intel over, which is insane to me.

Bryan Cantrill:

They had to like legally fight Intel for their right to spin out global foundries. And ended up being But they felt they had to do it and ended up, I mean, just being incredibly prescient because that's what allowed them to be on TSMC. And then that also took them to chiplets because they had global foundries on a 14 nanometer process, they wanted to use TSMC's 10, I think at the time. So they had to use chiplets. I mean, feel like there is a a great definitive book of of both AMD and Intel waiting to be written.

Bryan Cantrill:

Why have definitive books of these companies not been written? I actually kind of don't understand it. These are real like American icons, and there's there's Yeah. Nothing definitive on them, I don't think.

Adam Leventhal:

I'm with you. So true. Have you I I I mentioned this a year ago, but Chip War.

Bryan Cantrill:

Chip War. Did. I read Chip War. I I I I should put that in the category of recommendations from here. I read ChipWar.

Bryan Cantrill:

I thought was good.

Adam Leventhal:

Thought And, like, not sounds like there's a but. But I would just say, like, not not the authoritative authoritative history of Intel, but, like, certainly a lot of weaving through that story.

Bryan Cantrill:

A lot of weaving through. I thought chip war was good. I thought it was it was short. I mean, necessarily. Like, what I mean Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

They'd be like, look. I'm like, I'm trying to sell books over here. Not you know? I mean, sorry. I don't know if

Adam Leventhal:

you like, I don't know you not Britannica.

Bryan Cantrill:

Know if heard of yourself, but you're a little long winded. You may you know, maybe I'm not gonna take your advice on on the length of a book. But I would just I I want something that really goes to depth on the history of some of the on on Intel, on AMD, and on Fairchild. We talked about this last year too. I would just I I would really because I think that that there's a lot of history there that is not really known or told.

Bryan Cantrill:

And Yeah. Intel in particular, like, gotta get a however this thing ends, we've gotta get the definitive book on Intel. Right?

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. No. Absolutely. I I I was thinking back to was that book on sun I read? High Noon.

Bryan Cantrill:

High Noon.

Adam Leventhal:

Where it was it was written, you know, in, 1999 where yeah. High Noon. You get you guessed it right. It was the absolute apex Right.

Bryan Cantrill:

Right. Exactly. But I think and I think it makes it easier to to write a book from the perspective of a fallen icon. Like, just feel like we collectively, I mean, it would be very valuable to have a really definitive history of Intel and one of AMD. These companies have been companies have been around for a really long time, and there's not a ton that's been written on them.

Adam Leventhal:

Now Don't you think it'd be hard to write that book today where you're like, yeah. But what how does it end? Right? Yeah. Right?

Bryan Cantrill:

It is a little hard. Yeah. When you but this is where you end up with, you know, Randle Straw, Steve Jobs, the next big thing. Yeah. Where, you know, you just kinda like gotta end the book and like, well, maybe the maybe the company I mean, I think that the ending for next was very surprising that happens after the end of the book.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, actually, while I'm thinking about it, that actually reminds me. My, 18 year old, when he, he's a high school senior English teacher. I don't think I've talked about this here, but I

Adam Leventhal:

You have you have, but please continue.

Bryan Cantrill:

I have. Is this

Adam Leventhal:

You have. You made me guess. Everyone in chat was telling me how dumb I was. Yeah. Does it sound familiar now?

Bryan Cantrill:

No. It's just amazing. I know. Have I have I mentioned where I was when MCA died? Or or have we talked about Tomax and Zaymont?

Bryan Cantrill:

The other thing do you know that we it was a year ago. I know I was just going after the books in the box. Have we talked about have we had an extended discourse on Tomax and Zaymont multiple times, or have I just listened to Books in the Box from a year ago several times over? Because I

Adam Leventhal:

I know. I don't know, but several people are typing in chat.

Bryan Cantrill:

Several people are typing in chat. They're like, this is I gotta goddamn it. I knew it. I knew this is going I knew I I should have just keep hitting recreate on the bingo card creator until it has Tomax and Zeymud on there. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

They so okay. So I I did talk about that. Well, I thought that was a great assignment. And the assignment was he had to pick three books and or I he had to pick a person who then picked three books and and then he had to read one of them. And it was Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Soul of a New Machine. Yeah. The Steve Jobs, the next big thing, and Skunk Works by Ben Rich.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. And everyone everyone was going nuts on, Soul of a New Machine. It's like the obvious pick, and I've and I I you may remember this now. I reached for quantum dot, a book you'd let me

Bryan Cantrill:

quantum dot. That's why you remember that's right. Okay. That is coming

Adam Leventhal:

back to the only book I could think of in

Bryan Cantrill:

the moment. That was such a weird deep pull. That is the absolute weirdest. Oh. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

That is that was a great I'm you know, I

Adam Leventhal:

You're welcome.

Bryan Cantrill:

I I think I was so, like, overwhelmed with the light that I clearly forgot about even mentioning to you.

Adam Leventhal:

So I'm so sorry. Look. I'm

Bryan Cantrill:

just

Adam Leventhal:

No.

Bryan Cantrill:

There you go. I'll I'll stop generating. So the where are we? So anyway, Slingshot by Hector Ruiz, highly recommended. Please let us get a definitive history of Intel even if it hasn't ended yet.

Bryan Cantrill:

And AMD, I look The resurrection of AMD would be a great story. I mean, AMD left dead on the operating table like few modern companies and is resurrected, and I I don't think there's any book about it. Yeah. And it's extraordinary. So that's what I'm say.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. I'm I'm I'm looking for it. Not a recommendation because I haven't read it, but I'd be excited. Oliver, you have joined us.

Bryan Cantrill:

Hey, Oliver.

Oliver Herman:

Hey. How's it going?

Bryan Cantrill:

It's going.

Oliver Herman:

Welcome to books. Stay for the banter.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's right.

Oliver Herman:

Doing very well. Thank you. I have a few recommendations.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. Let's do it.

Oliver Herman:

So I'm gonna start off with a very casual coffee table book. No starch press called Open Circuits. They basically take is really cool. They take really close pictures of different components. And it's not like, you know, it's not like a reference or anything, but it's just it's just really neat.

Oliver Herman:

They're really good pictures.

Bryan Cantrill:

A copy of which is sitting in the oxide office, I'd like to say. I

Oliver Herman:

did. Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

You know, I I also have a copy of it as well. Yeah. It's it's a terrific book. It's terrific. Really fun.

Bryan Cantrill:

It's a gorgeous book. It's a really gorgeous book. Yeah. By tube time. Right?

Bryan Cantrill:

Is the that's Eric Schleefer.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Yeah. Like the the the Mastodon handle or whatever.

Bryan Cantrill:

I was gonna say the YouTube personality, but but I'm good.

Adam Leventhal:

Well, there you go.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Both of them. Yeah.

Oliver Herman:

No. But I have it in front

Oliver Herman:

of me. It says Eric Schleifer and Wendell Oskay.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. Eric Schleifer is, I believe, TubeDone.

Oliver Herman:

That makes sense. Well, I knew it was 50% chance. Let's see. Other books. Not a lot of technical books thinking back the past couple years.

Oliver Herman:

Obviously, known to many people, but this is the first year I tried to read systems performance. Brendan Graves' book.

Adam Leventhal:

Brendan Graves' book. Nice.

Oliver Herman:

Yes. And I'm about a third of the way through, so I think that counts. And it's great. It's great. It's really great.

Oliver Herman:

Especially kind of breaking it down into frameworks and methods and really thought of those things procedurally. You know, you get into like debugging as a living.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff.

Oliver Herman:

And so it's been really cool. And then lastly, I'm just gonna go for it because people have gone for a bunch of ass before. Why not? I've read a sort of like a progressive economics book, I want to say, which I enjoyed. I often find economics books pretty rough.

Oliver Herman:

This one was kind of depressing. Not Das Kapital. No. And I think it cuts what I like it and why I'm recommending is I think it cut a pretty even take, you know, versus like some some bored dogmatic like, I'm not recommending people read Mises or whatever. It's not like super philosophical.

Oliver Herman:

I enjoyed it. And that was a release this year.

Adam Leventhal:

It's Why We're Getting

Bryan Cantrill:

Poor, a Realist's Guide to the Economy and How We Can Fix It by Paul Moran.

Oliver Herman:

I think it's Welsh. I think he's Welsh.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. Alright. Well, then I

Oliver Herman:

Only only the Welsh know.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. Only the Welsh know. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

The you know, on I did you now I can both mention a book that I read and we can reference previous episode with the technological revolutions and financial capital, the Carlota Perez book we we had with Jerry Newman on here. That's another if you're if you're going on an economics bender, that's another good one to to go check out. Accompanied, of course.

Oliver Herman:

I did actually listen to it.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. It's good stuff.

Oliver Herman:

Then lastly, I last last one book from several years ago, which I thought was worth revisiting in our current political cycle, was Termination Shock by Neal Stephenson. Okay. Which was written right it was published like right after the conclusion sort of of the twenty twenty election and January 6 and all that stuff.

Oliver Herman:

But it's a book ostensibly about geoengineering. But kind of the central plot hinges around like basically, a a a US government walking around with his head cut off, which kind of enables all the drama. So it's a suspension of disbelief, but I I really enjoyed it. Pretty long like most Neal Stephenson fiction. But

Bryan Cantrill:

So I Adam, have you read any Neal Stephenson? I I know. I feel like I say this every year, maybe.

Adam Leventhal:

No. I mean, Snow Crash, like, a thousand years ago, like, every Gen Xer,

Bryan Cantrill:

I think. Not every Gen Xer, sir.

Adam Leventhal:

You have not read Snow Crash?

Bryan Cantrill:

I have not read Snow Crash. Is that I'm not You should. I will and I I have not read Snow Crash, but I oh, god. Back in the day, I I knew someone who work was working for a very secretive startup. And she could tell me nothing about it.

Bryan Cantrill:

And I'm like, I actually don't, like, I'm not curious about it. She said, No, I really can't tell you anything. I'm like, I really don't want to know. And I ended up somehow in an employee like off-site. And I know this sounds very dream sequence, but I ended up an employee off-site of where everyone was like, we must not tell you anything that we're working on.

Bryan Cantrill:

I'm like, I don't care. I just don't know how else to tell you this. And then there was a copy of Snow Crash that was left out. And I'm like, what's this? And they're like, he knows too much.

Bryan Cantrill:

Like, what what are we? Where are we? And do you know what? And Second life. No.

Bryan Cantrill:

But you're you're no. You're right there. You're right there. And I don't think it's gonna be like, I don't even know what to do if you're able to pull this because this is a a down market second life called their.com.

Adam Leventhal:

Roblox. Oh, there. Yes.

Bryan Cantrill:

Do you remember there?

Adam Leventhal:

I I maybe only from the context of this story.

Bryan Cantrill:

This story?

Adam Leventhal:

Yes. It rings a bell.

Bryan Cantrill:

Who would name a company there? It feels like an Abbott and Costello skit every time you're trying to say where you work. Like, I work there. I mean, mean, what's this? Yes.

Bryan Cantrill:

It it feels like this is an even worse name for a company than b, which is really saying something. Because I think b, like Jean Louis can say, you know, I great reverence for your life's many achievements. Terrible company name. But there it feels like it's much worse. And actually their.com still exists.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh my, can create an avatar and win a 100 T dollars. What it feels like a T dollar. What's the conversion rate? What's the coin conversion rate between a T dollar and something that I can use to put food in my belly or a roof on my head? I just feels God, that is

Adam Leventhal:

Sounds like they also invented crypto, so good for them.

Bryan Cantrill:

There's gotta I mean, please don't tell me we're gonna end up with a tell all on there before we have a canonical history of Intel or AMD. But, you know, but that said, I would read the canonical history on there in a heartbeat.

Adam Leventhal:

There you go.

Bryan Cantrill:

So yeah. There but, anyway, Snow Crash was apparently, had I read Snow Crash, I would have, but I guess I I'm gonna infer that Snow Crash has some virtual reality elements to it. Is that a fair inference, Adam?

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. There you go. Now it's like you that's basically the whole plot. You got it.

Oliver Herman:

But it's it's all about the rule of cool with that book and probably why it's more worth reading. They have an assassin with a knife that's made out of glass, and they have a kit, like, talking car that delivers pizza. So focus on the cool, I would say, is the only reason to to slog through it.

Bryan Cantrill:

When you say a kit talking car, you're talking kit with two t's, I assume.

Oliver Herman:

Precisely. Yeah. Like like a Knight Rider.

Bryan Cantrill:

Like a Knight Rider. Okay. No. Okay. But you're how are you making a Knight Rider reference?

Bryan Cantrill:

How's that working? Because no. I'm just

Adam Leventhal:

I mean, I I Must be one of us.

Bryan Cantrill:

No. No. No. No. I know for a fact that I mean, the it was it was Knight Rider remade at some point?

Bryan Cantrill:

Surely.

Oliver Herman:

Is that I don't I don't think so. So I found if you wanna know, if you must know You must know. There was the SpongeBob movie in, like, 2005.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh my god. I should've called it. I should've called it. I feel like I could've called that. I could be like, what is it?

Bryan Cantrill:

A SpongeBob reference? Okay. That makes way more sense. I was right to dig here. I'm sorry.

Bryan Cantrill:

I was absolutely right to dig here. I knew something did that smelled off with a Knight Rider reference being dropped so casually by by a Gen Zer. I was right to dig. I knew it.

Oliver Herman:

You know, you look at the man's discography. I don't know what Baywatch was. Exactly.

Adam Leventhal:

Celebrate his whole catalog. Right.

Oliver Herman:

Such as it is.

Bryan Cantrill:

It's so bad, Knight Rider. It's so bad. I'm sure I mean, I'm sure whenever we mentioned MCA's death, we probably followed immediately with a Knight Rider chaser, but that thing is so goddamn bad. I I actually tried to rewatch that with my kids and, when they were much younger, and it was unwatchable.

Oliver Herman:

I don't think Beastie Boys are uniquely Gen X though. Like, definitely listen to the Beastie Boys in high school. So I think they had more staying power.

Bryan Cantrill:

I know. I I I'm with you on that. I'm I'm definitely with you on that. Knight Rider, I'm most convinced of though. Okay.

Bryan Cantrill:

This makes sense. Sponge you got it through SpongeBob. Are the the the the kind the cultural Prometheus bringing fire to later generations in the form of Night Rider?

Oliver Herman:

A precise play.

Oliver Herman:

Yeah. 100%.

Bryan Cantrill:

Where are we? Wait. Sorry. I I woke up in a a in a kit ditch here.

Adam Leventhal:

Oliver, other recommendations?

Oliver Herman:

Nope. That is it for me. Thank you for your time.

Bryan Cantrill:

Those are those are great recommendations. Yeah. Absolutely. Those are those are all very good. The yes.

Bryan Cantrill:

Go ahead.

Adam Leventhal:

I got one that's, like, obvious, but I I had not read The Big Short.

Bryan Cantrill:

Really? I don't know. Yeah. Oh, god. It's so good.

Adam Leventhal:

It's so good. Why did no one tell me? Why has nobody read this book? I know that I'm the last person on Earth to read it, so it's kind of pointless for me to recommend it to folks, but it is tremendous. And

Bryan Cantrill:

How

Adam Leventhal:

are lived through the crash.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. And how are you feeling about Michael Lewis right now? Because I feel like I've read a lot of Michael Lewis, and I felt kind of betrayed by a bunch of I don't know. I I I don't know where I'm netting out on it.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. I mean, I have, Going Infinite on my shelf. Okay. And I have and I have not been tempted to read it. I think it was do you I mean, there are a few people who's like, holiday, send this person a book list.

Adam Leventhal:

Do you I I assume you're on some some of these lists.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Yeah. And and so I think it was one of those that, like, kind of the person has forgotten that they've added me to this list years ago, and I still get their books. But yeah. So, yeah, complicated with Michael Lewis for sure.

Bryan Cantrill:

But The Big Short was so good. It was Yeah. It was really good. And I I think it's mostly true. Right?

Bryan Cantrill:

Probably.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Mean, client yeah. No. I think there's certainly elements of truthiness to it.

Bryan Cantrill:

The and the the line that I love from The Big Short is where the I mean, well, I'm sure you go ahead because you read it recently.

Adam Leventhal:

I know you're I know it's gonna be like, whatever that guy's long, I'm I I wanna be short.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. I love that. I just so love that that he in order to persuade these folks to take these big shorts, he sat them at a table with the longs who are long housing. And he realized that the longs were just such like morons. He's like, I wanna be short anything that guy is long.

Bryan Cantrill:

I just love that. I mean,

Oliver Herman:

that's so good. So so good.

Bryan Cantrill:

Amazing. Yeah. It is amazing. No. It's a it was a very good book.

Bryan Cantrill:

It was a very good book. And I I wanna believe. I wanna believe. So the and and maybe on, on going infinite, is he gonna be is SPF gonna be you know, why are we doing this? I we don't need to do that.

Bryan Cantrill:

We don't we don't need to play play the what ifs here. They're they're too depressed.

Adam Leventhal:

Of course, he's gonna be like secretary of of of war or something. I don't know.

Bryan Cantrill:

You know? Let's do you know you know what? Let's do it. Let's do it.

Adam Leventhal:

Next head of the treasury. I agree. I'm

Bryan Cantrill:

calling it. Next head of treasury. You know what? I let's do the experiment. I just feel like, you know, let's try at least.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. That and did you and you read the Big Short just this past year?

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. I think in January, read it. Yeah. Terrific.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. The okay. So can I do some, books of, that the people have recommended to me who are listeners?

Adam Leventhal:

Great. Alright.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. What's what's the sum of those? So one has been on the actual podcast, has been so Malcolm Metalka, who was on Mhmm. On Oxide and Friends when we talked about Open Tofu. I saw Malcolm in Amsterdam.

Bryan Cantrill:

I know he's not here live. He lives in Amsterdam, so it'd be a very inconvenient hour. And I ended up recommending to him somehow Dean Kamen came up and recommended reinventing the wheel, which I know we've talked about here. Have you read reinventing the wheel, Adam?

Adam Leventhal:

I think I still have not.

Bryan Cantrill:

I think I am think you really should. I think that is a I that you First of all, I think it is like, look, if it is my people who wander around the Western America in the solution wagon, because, you know, this is a very New England story in way in ways Oh, okay. I mean, Now

Adam Leventhal:

I'm listening.

Bryan Cantrill:

Exactly. Now I've got your attention. Right. It's a it's a very I mean, the book is mesmerizingly good, I thought. I thought it was I thought it was really very, very good.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. So reinventing the wheel, I would I would reassert that recommendation. So Malcolm, I recommended that, and and he, immediately devoured that really. I so unfortunately, Malcolm, I'm sorry. The the book that you recommended to me has only just now shown up.

Bryan Cantrill:

So I will get on it, but it's it's eccentric orbits, the Iridium story by John Bloom, 2006. This book looks great. And it's about basically because you remember the the story with Iridium and, like, the satellites are all gonna burn up because of bankruptcy, basically. Do you remember this? In the in the

Adam Leventhal:

I I I know that Iridium were satellites, but that's, like, that's that's all I could retain from that.

Bryan Cantrill:

I retained just that plus Epsilon, basically. But the the book looks great. And I so I this is a recommendation from Malcolm, and I am I think this is this is prominent on the queue. This is very as he pointed out, it's very, very contrillion. You've got, you know, you you've got corporate bungling.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Like air aerospace disaster, maybe.

Bryan Cantrill:

I know. Got air you got you got the whole disaster angle. You got the corporate bungling angle. I mean, this is like it it is kinda right up the fairway. So I you know, fine.

Bryan Cantrill:

So Yeah. That looks that looks really good. So have not have not read that, but that one I think should be on the list. Oh, hey. Another so another actually

Adam Leventhal:

And what what's the title of that book?

Bryan Cantrill:

That is Eccentric Orbits, The Iridium Storm by by John Bloom. It looks really, really terrific. Do you or have does anybody have on their queue or have has anyone read a book on what's happening with LLMs or like because, you know, we're in this whole new world. Right? Are you Yes.

Adam Leventhal:

True. No. I'm I'm familiar. Yes.

Bryan Cantrill:

It would it feels like I'd be interested. Like, are there some, like, good tomes on on this this new world that we're in? And I've got one that's also suggested by, I'm not sure if he's an Oxide and Friends listener, but I feel he should be. Joe Emerson, do you know him? So Joe- No.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. So Joe is a founder of a company called Branch, Branch Insurance. And I have seen him a couple of times at Munktoberfest. So Joe's great. And Joe recommended this book so strongly to me, he thrust it in my hands at Moncton Pest.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's a book recommendation, I gotta say. Yeah. Like, that's that's an all pro book recommendation, like, read this. And he said it's dense, but it's extraordinary. Okay.

Bryan Cantrill:

So this is and I this is gonna be I I really wanna read this in the coming year, but this is it is it it is dense. It is language machines by Leaf Wetherbee, cultural AI, and the end of remainder humanism. Remainder humanism. That's right. So if you're like, uh-oh, like that's Yeah, this is gonna be So this is by a professor of German.

Bryan Cantrill:

And I'm really intrigued to read this. It is not gonna be an easy read, but I'm really intrigued to read this. So the the again, so strongly recommended to me that it was thrust in my hands. This is a new book, twenty twenty five. And talking about I mean, really, I think taking apart what it means to have something that mimics language and what does this mean for the actual simulation of cognition?

Bryan Cantrill:

And is this actually intelligence or not? I mean, you know, not Spoiler. Spoiler work. No. The but I I so anyway, I think that that's I'm I'm looking forward to reading that, I would also be curious if there are other thing I mean, I feel like we're in such a dynamic time.

Bryan Cantrill:

Like, there's gotta be what is the, like, the the the great book that's being written on how to navigate this this new but maybe it's all too new. I don't know. Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Tough tough story one and not have it feel immediately dated.

Bryan Cantrill:

Maybe that's it.

Adam Leventhal:

Like like that book on, Web three that, like, came out a year after the bubble burst.

Bryan Cantrill:

Did that okay. The Chris Dixon book. Or or or do you just wanna hear me say it so you can am I putting are you just trying to trick me to putting the ball on the tea so you can just, like, take a second leg?

Adam Leventhal:

A little bit.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. No. Is this a special like books in the bonfire? Is this an addendum to books in the box? It's like, okay.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. Well, that concludes our books in the box. Now it is time for the back half of the program.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. I feel like I have a lot of those actually.

Bryan Cantrill:

Right. I know. Well, this is why we're it's why we're here. I I don't know if we can burn any Audible books, I think we gotta actually I mean, we really need the

Adam Leventhal:

Yes. Like, I'm gonna put it on my Kindle, burn the Kindle, buy

Bryan Cantrill:

a new Kindle. That's right. But this is read, write, own, building the next era of the Internet. And

Adam Leventhal:

Oh, so bad. The what you need to read, actually, my recommendation of that is Molly White's review of it, which is just so spectacular.

Bryan Cantrill:

Did Molly White did she actually read it?

Adam Leventhal:

She read it Wow. Cover to cover, and reviewed it thoroughly, and it saved the whole world a lot of time.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. So you the I I love this. I I actually, this is great. This is the way you get to the books on the bonfire. You recommend the review that actually I'm not torching the book.

Bryan Cantrill:

I'm gonna but I'm recommending the review that torches the book. Yeah. We gotta get Molly

Adam Leventhal:

There was some other

Bryan Cantrill:

Why is Molly White not on

Adam Leventhal:

That would be great. Oh, yeah. Seriously. Let's do that. And sorry, Morris.

Adam Leventhal:

But

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Morris, move over. I mean, just stop being so thirsty. We'll get to you at some point.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. That this looks okay. Yeah. This looks good. I I mean, yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

This looks good. This this looks good. Okay. So that is what we are. Are there other book reviews that you'd like to recommend?

Bryan Cantrill:

No.

Adam Leventhal:

But I gotta I gotta remember. There was some of the garbage looking book that I was, like, gonna ask Molly White to review first to save us all a lot of time, but I'll have to look up what that one was.

Bryan Cantrill:

No. It's gonna be like, I'm not your garbage disposal. Like, you read it yourself. I mean, why

Adam Leventhal:

am I She monetizes it. It's like, it was content creation. Right? That's great. This Content.

Bryan Cantrill:

I gotta say this review looks really comprehensive.

Adam Leventhal:

It's it is it is not a cursory I mean, it's really compelling.

Bryan Cantrill:

This was a compelling review. This is a no. This this is an excellent recommendation you've made here. Good. Alright.

Bryan Cantrill:

We've got oh, Tom's here. Let's get Tom on stage.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. What we've talked about that I've read, you've read, we've talked about before, but careless people.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, I can't remember when this is struggling enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Bryan Cantrill:

I can't yeah. Right. Okay. We yeah. I feel like we can't let careless people just be the the book that is so obviously the book to read that we forget to mention it.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. I mean, I

Adam Leventhal:

mean, I already mentioned yeah. Yeah. I mean, I already mentioned The Big Short, which everyone's read, so why not careless people? No. Not, yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

I not only I didn't even take it out of the library. I liked it so much. I I bought a physical copy, and it's it's so good. So this Sherwin Williams inside Facebook talking about

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh my

Adam Leventhal:

god. All the bullshit and shenanigans in particular from from her perspective sitting, looking at, like, geopolitics and Facebook's intersection with that. And she just eviscerates them, and it's so great and terrifying.

Bryan Cantrill:

It is a must read. It is extraordinary, that book. It is so good. She somehow managed to persuade them to get a restraining order against her, preventing her from promoting the book, thereby promoting the book for free. I mean, it's just genius.

Bryan Cantrill:

Next level genius. And the book is so much weirder than the poll quotes, I feel. Don't you feel that way? That, like, as weird

Adam Leventhal:

as Absolutely. Yes. Like, it is it is so profoundly weird from, like, the vignettes on private jets where Zuckerberg is accusing her of cheating at Settlers of Catan.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh my god.

Adam Leventhal:

Like, I I don't even feel like that is the weirdest thing yet.

Bryan Cantrill:

No. It's not even close. That is not even yes. Yeah. That I mean, the it is an unbelievable book, and it is too weird to be false is the problem that Facebook has.

Bryan Cantrill:

I mean, there's just not a you just won't make this shit up. It's too weird.

Adam Leventhal:

Yes. It's too weird.

Bryan Cantrill:

And I thought it was just absolutely extraordinary. And I mean, it paints like it does not I mean, it really portrays folks in, I mean, in a very important light, and it is not positive. It is definitely not positive. Did you did I with this book, Careless People is notable because Bridget actually absconded with my copy while I was reading with it. No.

Bryan Cantrill:

This is like I was ex because I was exclaiming more when reading Careless People. I mean, the only thing I can compare it to is bad blood for Yeah. Verbal exclamation while reading. And at some point, she was like, put a sock in it. I mean, understandably.

Bryan Cantrill:

And then she's like, well, maybe I'll I can't remember if I recommended that she pick it up or if she picked it up before but she picked it up and then I couldn't get it back for so she wait. Okay. Bad news. I couldn't get it back until she finished it. Good news.

Bryan Cantrill:

She did literally nothing else until she finished the book. So it was really mean, wasn't that long, actually. I mean, she just like ripped through that thing. And it is it's it's amazing. Remarkable.

Bryan Cantrill:

Remarkable.

Adam Leventhal:

So I I did fig figure out what my recommendation to Molly White is for the next book. And I don't know if you've driven through San Francisco recently and seen a book advertised on a billboard.

Bryan Cantrill:

What? No. What? What book?

Adam Leventhal:

It's the

Bryan Cantrill:

I mean, okay. This is obviously AI related.

Adam Leventhal:

Yudkowsky book. Oh god. Yes. Oh, god. God.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Oh, I may have to that one The title of the have to smell that smell for myself. I the Elias are Yudkowsky. Yeah. God, I'm gonna need if Bridget listens to this, she's gonna be like, god, get a get an get an Airbnb when you're reading that.

Bryan Cantrill:

I I just don't wanna deal with it.

Adam Leventhal:

I just, like, just I also took out Read Write Own from the library. I didn't finish it. I did put it down. Was exclaiming quite a bit. My wife was saying, put that book down.

Adam Leventhal:

Like, if you hate it so much, stop reading it. I have this in my queue allegedly available soon Dude, it's not the people.

Bryan Cantrill:

Right? What was

Adam Leventhal:

I think it may be, because they're I'm the ninety fourth person in line at the San Francisco Public Library. But This

Bryan Cantrill:

is if anyone builds it, everyone dies.

Adam Leventhal:

That's right. And to be clear, I just wanna I cannot stress this enough. This is not a recommendation.

Bryan Cantrill:

This is not we need to have, like, a different maybe a different tone that we play when it's like an anti maybe there's a klaxon that goes off or something that we But this one, I may need to smell the smell myself. This is I feel like this is a This is the fridge that we had at in Building 18. Have we described this fridge before? I mean, if I get I feel like I've repeated so many anecdotes I don't think so. But have I have we talked about this fridge in Building 18?

Bryan Cantrill:

Because I feel like we so the I think you had a I think you had

Adam Leventhal:

a fridge incident in your garage, but I I don't know about the Building 181.

Bryan Cantrill:

Really? Oh my god. This would be amazing if I somehow have managed to okay. So we used to we we would go to Ostoria every Monday night. And then

Adam Leventhal:

a a restaurant in Palo Alto where we would This is Colonel Group folks would hang out.

Bryan Cantrill:

This is this is Oxide and Friends before podcast existed. So this is That's right. This is a primordial Oxide and Friends when it was really just also known as dinner with people you know. The, that's where I had my great food amnesia, the with the Carpaccio. Were you there tonight?

Bryan Cantrill:

When No. Because they would they had so Austria, Palo Alto and I'm sure this is still true because that that restaurant is just like so like key on the water. And that is the the the the most stable institution.

Adam Leventhal:

I mean, menu is like might as well be written in stone. Absolutely. They

Bryan Cantrill:

And Yep. Their carpaccio is extraordinary. And we would order the Carpaccio every week. And they take out the Carpaccio. And they had brought out everyone's Carpaccio except for mine.

Bryan Cantrill:

And I'm like, where's my Carpaccio? And one of our colleagues, Steven, was like, are you That's okay. Are you being funny? Like, it's not funny to me. Like, where's my Carpaccio?

Bryan Cantrill:

He's like, okay, you're actually scaring me a little bit. Like, I'm like, no, I just like It's not reasonable that I get the Carpaccio. And he's like, okay, your Carpaccio showed up and you ate it so quickly, they've already cleared your plate.

Adam Leventhal:

And I'm

Bryan Cantrill:

like, well, I don't I mean, I don't recall that. I mean, can you I you know, I can can you prove that? I mean, I okay. But so I yeah. I I you know, I get you gotta be careful when you dig that.

Bryan Cantrill:

I let's just say that it took a little some it took me down a couple of pegs, and I've never whenever the food hasn't arrived yet, there's a there's a voice in my head that said, no. No. The food has already arrived and you already ate it. So just calm down. Like, just lose some of the indignation, pal, because you have you you have food amnesia.

Bryan Cantrill:

You've got, like Look.

Adam Leventhal:

Because this is not an intervention, I will just say this is not the only time that this has occurred. I just Oh,

Bryan Cantrill:

because this is not an intervention. My favorite god. My favorite thing to hear in a meeting. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that, and it's like, no. I'm now I'm I'm much more receptive to feedback.

Bryan Cantrill:

No. Listen. When it's an intervention, just be sure say

Adam Leventhal:

care about you.

Bryan Cantrill:

Exactly. Just be sure you say because this is not an intervention before you intervene. That's that's the way to just the guard will come right down. No. So alright.

Bryan Cantrill:

So we would go to dinner, and then we go we would go back, and we would shoot pool in Building 18. Because Building 18 had the Distributed Objects Everywhere group, the Doe group, that was like

Adam Leventhal:

This is this is at Sun.

Bryan Cantrill:

This is at Sun. Contacts. And the and the colonel group got nothing. Java got, like, their own cafes, Java Java, everything else. And the Doe group had anything they could spend money on, they got.

Bryan Cantrill:

And so they had this luxurious pool table. So we felt like we would kinda even the score a little bit. Like, well, our badge works over here. We'll just go over here and shoot pool on your pool table. And in that room they were that project was later killed, by the way.

Bryan Cantrill:

So, you know, they they got theirs. The in that room, there was a refrigerator, and the refrigerator had a sign on it. And the sign said, do not open. I'm serious. You've been warned.

Bryan Cantrill:

And I mean, like, obviously, we're gonna I mean and I remember, like, we managed to shoot pool in there a couple of nights and not open it. But, like, we can't do this forever. We obviously gotta crack this thing open. Like, what's in there? I mean, it was there for a bunch of weeks.

Bryan Cantrill:

I'm like, we are just gonna like open it a little bit. And I like just like inch that thing open. And I don't know if it was under pressure or what, but the most, I mean, it was death was in the room with us. I have never been it was the the most animal foul smell. And I immediately remember slamming it shut me like it.

Bryan Cantrill:

I really like and meanwhile, whoever made the sign is like, what the hell else do I need to do? And I kinda feel like do do you see why I bring this up with the the Eliezer book, Eliezer Eliezer book? I feel like this is if anyone built it, everyone dies. It should also be known as do not open. I'm serious.

Bryan Cantrill:

You've been warned.

Adam Leventhal:

Does does Geraldo Rivera opening Al Capone's tomb have the same cultural currency for you?

Bryan Cantrill:

You are hoping that this was that they made a SpongeBob about this, pal. I like, obviously, I'm with you, but you are just hoping they made their or South Park picked it up. I mean, like, that's

Adam Leventhal:

the only way this

Bryan Cantrill:

thing leaps. I know. Because that is a that that is dead on the operating table with the Gen X. I gotta tell you.

Adam Leventhal:

I'm the Revere. You mean the secretary of the interior? No. Oh my god. I got it.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's like is that true? That's not true. Right? I don't know. That's not the point is, we don't know.

Bryan Cantrill:

Could be true. It could be true, and that's the point. That's the point. He's an undersecretary. He's not the secretary, folks.

Bryan Cantrill:

It's fine. Yeah. Okay. Where are we? Oh, yes.

Bryan Cantrill:

We want so we want Molly White. We wanna somehow trick Molly White into reviewing if everyone builds it. If anyone builds it, everyone does.

Adam Leventhal:

And then coming on the podcast.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. Agreed.

Adam Leventhal:

Let's we have lots of work to do, everybody. Get to it.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Let's let's actually get to it. Alright. Maybe we should get Tom on stage. Maybe we should get, like Alright.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes.

Adam Leventhal:

And That's what everyone's saying.

Bryan Cantrill:

Hi. Hi, Tom. I'm so sorry. We were such morons.

Tom Lyon:

No. It's fine. It's fine. You guys are hilarious today.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. Alright. Okay. I think we've just received some feedback about our other episodes, Clearway.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. Go on,

Adam Leventhal:

Tom. Clear.

Tom Lyon:

So, you're you have all these books about kinda recent history, which is all too depressing for me. But I have a recommendation on a very ancient, software history.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh. Yes.

Tom Lyon:

From airline reservations to Sonic the Hedgehog.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. Yes. This is yeah. Have you read this, Adam? No.

Bryan Cantrill:

Outstanding book.

Oliver Herman:

Have you read that?

Bryan Cantrill:

I have. And I it's very, very good. The I I the I read it. So Martin Campbell Kelly also wrote a a really good history of computing. And I think it's might be just called computing.

Bryan Cantrill:

But yeah. I or the computer, a history of the information machine. Yeah. So Tom, did you read this recently? I should go reread that actually.

Bryan Cantrill:

I think I Yeah. I wouldn't have heard of it.

Tom Lyon:

Learned all kinds of stuff about the early early fifties and sixties.

Bryan Cantrill:

And it is like a wild time in the development of SABRE and yeah, I mean, I should go back and reread that. And

Tom Lyon:

to tell you how old I am, let me as anecdote. The first software product that's considered to be this, auto flow program from applied data research.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay.

Tom Lyon:

Which would draw flow charts given the source code. Which flow charts were very important back then.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes, back in the day, yeah.

Tom Lyon:

Actually worked part time for applied data research when I was at Princeton.

Bryan Cantrill:

When you were Princeton, I was gonna ask, okay, so this is back in the day. So this is in the, in

Tom Lyon:

So auto flow was like 1965 and I was working there like 1977.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, wow. That is really cool. And they're in the book, they're in Martin Campbell and Kelly's book, I assume. Yeah. That's very cool.

Bryan Cantrill:

And we, you know, I need to reread this because it's been too long. Adam, did you, do you remember the, Systems We Love talk that we had on the airline system?

Adam Leventhal:

Yes. Yes. In the airline reservation system, I think the thing I retained from that was, you know, that, like, sequence of, like, six letters or numbers or whatever. Two.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. Yes. That

Adam Leventhal:

was, like, the the sector ID, like, on the hard drive or something.

Bryan Cantrill:

Am I remembering that right? No. You're exactly remembering that.

Tom Lyon:

I have a manual that shows it's the controller and that that code was actually interpreted by the controller, not by the computer.

Adam Leventhal:

Oh my goodness. Oh my god.

Tom Lyon:

It's basically a secret address on the hard drive.

Bryan Cantrill:

Right. It's an actual, like, block. It's like an LBA. You we and we spoke about LBAs today. And so I think block.

Tom Lyon:

It's like back then. They were saying that all weird keys. That's tough.

Adam Leventhal:

It's like if your QR code was just a pointer.

Bryan Cantrill:

But but the thing is that that's amazing is like the LBA has I mean, your your record locator has survived everything else around it. Like, you still will sit there and type that thing in now. You know, it's it's something that has no physical relevance whatsoever any longer. So the other thing I'm a little surprised that you don't remember, sorry, I remember that. The other thing, do you remember in this presentation that we saw, Tom, Systems We Love, going into all the complexities of the the the the flight reservation system and talking about the the special code you need to use if you have a meat trophy.

Bryan Cantrill:

Do you remember this? I don't even know what a meat trophy was. But if you have a meat trophy, so if you like you I mean, like, look, this obviously comes up. Like, were just like, yeah, I got this moose that I need to bring back with me. I got a moose cadaver.

Bryan Cantrill:

Like, there's a there's like a booking code for a meat trophy and you you can book us you have to book a seat for it, basically. And I always felt like meat trophy. I just feel like meat trophy is something that we're not using enough in common parlance. I feel like that that

Adam Leventhal:

I think that's right.

Bryan Cantrill:

I feel meat trophy

Adam Leventhal:

We should bring it back.

Bryan Cantrill:

I feel I feel like we'd be doing more. I think it's time to be right.

Tom Lyon:

I was trying to get from Israel to Finland once and looking at flights.

Bryan Cantrill:

And

Tom Lyon:

there were some flight classes that allowed you to bring your livestock on.

Bryan Cantrill:

Exactly. Exactly. That's I mean, that is so oh, and those things still exist. Like, you can still bring, you know, livestock. You know?

Bryan Cantrill:

That's Tom, that is great. Do you have and again, that that one I feel is a must reread for me because I I feel like that came out in, 2000 maybe. When did that come out? Sonic the Hedgehog.

Adam Leventhal:

I guess

Bryan Cantrill:

it does kind of say it on the tin there. Yeah.

Tom Lyon:

The other recommendation I have is in the pile of books I was getting rid of. I came across this again. And it's got nothing to do with anything except it's a hilarious read. And it's it's the war of Don Emanuele's nether parts.

Bryan Cantrill:

The war? Okay.

Tom Lyon:

And it's just hilarious. It's fiction. It's magical realism. It's set in fictional South American country. But if you're into something really escapist, I highly recommend this.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. Then

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Sounds good. Sign me up.

Bryan Cantrill:

I also feel like in other parts, another another term along with meat trophy, is that we're I just feel could be doing more in our in our current parlance. It just is not.

Adam Leventhal:

Meat trophy.

Bryan Cantrill:

Meat trophy. Yes. Nether parts. Maybe we're gonna leave that one.

Adam Leventhal:

Maybe it's doing enough. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Maybe it's doing enough. Maybe he's done too much, actually.

Adam Leventhal:

Arguably.

Bryan Cantrill:

That yeah. That's a good

Tom Lyon:

And the other one I dropped in the channel already is the the NVIDIA way.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yes. Yeah.

Tom Lyon:

Which I was I was a little dubious given the title. It sounds like it's all rah rah stuff, but it was actually recommended in on one of David Rosenthal's blogs. And he was like employee number five there.

Bryan Cantrill:

And interesting. Yeah. I that is that's all and then you thought it was good. It feels like that's kind of a must read at this point. I mean, it's just that the history of that company is so extraordinary.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. That that looks like a a good one. Yeah. This is gonna sound like the NVIDIA way. I kinda have, like, Sean Connery in the Untouchables vibe.

Bryan Cantrill:

Right? Am I am I can I

Adam Leventhal:

That's right?

Bryan Cantrill:

You know? Yeah. Put

Adam Leventhal:

one of ours in the hospital, put two of theirs in the morgue. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Two of on the package. That's the NVIDIA way.

Tom Lyon:

That's right. Well, you gotta admit that Jensen is a pretty extraordinary guy.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Yes. Oh, I mean, I I mean, I think we've recommended this before, but the acquired the acquired 18 part series on NVIDIA Mhmm. Is is really worth listening to. I mean, it is just really I I think what's what's amazing to me is the time and Tom, it'd be interesting to know if they I'm sure they Or maybe they didn't elaborate on it, but the number of times that company kind of like pushed all of its chips in at a time when it had like really something to lose.

Bryan Cantrill:

And they That's the thing that is, I think, remarkable.

Tom Lyon:

Yeah. The book makes it look like Jensen just decides we're we're going all in. Let's let's go.

Bryan Cantrill:

Wow. Well, they've made a bunch of really good bets. I mean, what what what else can you say? Sorry. But he thought it was was readable on tone.

Adam Leventhal:

That looks good. And, Brian, have you have you speaking of NVIDIA, there's this interview that, Jensen does of Morris Chang, and this was, like, seventeen years ago or something like that. Have you watched this at Computer History Museum, one of their I think one of their oral histories, but this I'd really recommend. I mean, this was I mean, I know we love both of these guys on the show, but interesting in particular because, like, you know, their their rise to even greater prominence followed this, but it it was a great conversation.

Bryan Cantrill:

Amazing. No. I you know, and I have actually not watched that. I need to go. I'll put that on my best watch list for sure.

Adam Leventhal:

That's a

Bryan Cantrill:

good one. Did you drop a little Actually, the

Tom Lyon:

other oral history that just came out as of Ken Thompson. Oh, Four four and a half hours worth of stuff now.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, yeah. That's be good. That has got to be good. I would like to say that we have, you know what, one thing we've done in the last year is we've actually made some progress on the computer museum. And they've dropped that restraining order, which is very courteous.

Bryan Cantrill:

And think may we be able to do something with these oral histories. So we'll see. We'll see. And I think right now their lawyers are like, this is as you recall, the letter we sent you explicitly forbids you for mentioning us in such a way on your podcast. But it looks that looks like a good one.

Bryan Cantrill:

And I the the Ken Thompson ones would be great. Oh my god. That guy is so extraordinary.

Adam Leventhal:

So speaking of our buddy, Morris Chang Yes, sir. I have a not not a book recommendation because I have not read enough of it to make sense. But Morris Chang, as you may know, has written not one but two autobiographies, neither of which is short. Neither of which is in English.

Bryan Cantrill:

Right. Both both had to be translated. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Right. Okay.

Adam Leventhal:

Well, had to be translated, meaning, like, there is not an English translation for sale. So what I have done is bought, these on a Taiwanese ebook shop and and plugging them through LLMs to translate it. How is it, you might ask? It is very difficult to read a book this way.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. I

Adam Leventhal:

That's what I would report so far. It is interesting and very hard to read a book this way.

Bryan Cantrill:

Feels I can't determine if we are in the the the the books in the box or the books of the fire. Are we where are we? Are we in the of the bonfire? Are we it feels like we're kind of in the middle. It feels like we are

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Too soon to say. I'm sure it's gonna be delightful, and it's just it's hard to get through a book like this. So they'll recommend this method

Bryan Cantrill:

of reading a book. Maybe maybe it would have

Adam Leventhal:

been faster to learn Chinese. Who knows?

Bryan Cantrill:

Who knows? Okay. Yeah. That was we've got an a couple others that came in over the interwebs that I feel we should also feature. So Dan McDonald, who's a a frequent listener.

Bryan Cantrill:

It had two on Blue Sky point us to. One is inventing the Renaissance. A history of histories of of, the not so golden age of the Renaissance. So this looks really, mesmerizing. And then the other one is on actually, this one is right up your alley.

Bryan Cantrill:

A biography on Charles Sumner. I feel that I mean, I feel like I'm at Fenway. The abolition I mean, Sumner is is is Massachusetts senator. Right? Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Right? Sumner Tunnel?

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely like there's a lot I can say. I just felt like I was getting like a moment of like, oh, Dan's here.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, sorry, Dan. Do wanna I I sorry. I thought you you should come up here and and let us know about your the the biography of Charles Sumner. I that there was a moment where I thought I got that grievously wrong, but looks like two good books. Do you I by way, are you up on your Charles Sumner history?

Bryan Cantrill:

I guess or or

Adam Leventhal:

I'm not. Or Thank you for asking.

Bryan Cantrill:

No. Is is this is he

Adam Leventhal:

As we discussed earlier when just when talking about road trips, like, that's an entirely different state. Like, I mean, it might be, you know, kilometers away or whatever, but, like, it is you know, we we regard that as foreign territory. Okay. Us nutmeggers.

Bryan Cantrill:

I was okay. Thank you. I was just gonna ask. Like, I realized, like, not only do I not I don't know what someone what's someone from Massachusetts called? And it it's a nutmegger from Connecticut.

Bryan Cantrill:

Is it really a nutmegger?

Adam Leventhal:

Oh my god. Yeah. That's a tough pull. If you

Dan McDonald:

I've I've not heard anything other than assholes. I've only lived here for twenty something years.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. Well, Massachusetts or Bay Staters? We're going with Mass Halls folks. Sorry. I you know what?

Bryan Cantrill:

I I'm I'm so sorry. So Dan, you

Dan McDonald:

It doesn't bug me.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Exactly. That's right. Looks like two good books, though. Do you wanna talk about them at all?

Dan McDonald:

Yes. Okay. So I discovered Ada Palmer through her science fiction. She wrote this wonderful four book cycle called Terra Ignata, which talks about a far future with a vastly changed human society. It's social science fiction.

Bryan Cantrill:

Her world building is thing.

Dan McDonald:

And when you read the her when when I this is the first non fiction book of hers I read was inventing the renaissance. And I understand why she go why she was so good at world building and science fiction because she's so good at world discovering and world rediscovering.

Adam Leventhal:

Both of

Dan McDonald:

these books are about rediscovering history. She's really good about rediscovering the things about the Renaissance that maybe you weren't taught in high school world history.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's right.

Oliver Herman:

So Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. That's interesting.

Dan McDonald:

It it's it's a pleasant re it's it's a big read, but it's a pleasant read. It's difficult. There's just a lot of it.

Bryan Cantrill:

There's lot

Adam Leventhal:

of it.

Bryan Cantrill:

So Yeah.

Dan McDonald:

And the same goes for the Sumner book. Same goes for the Sumner book. And both have amazingly dense endnote sections in them too if you want more. If you're really like, I gotta drill. There's plenty of places for you to to set up a rig and drill.

Bryan Cantrill:

And how did you get to the the the the Sumner book?

Dan McDonald:

I I I follow I follow political thing. I follow a few history professors, and I follow a few political scientists on Blue Sky to keep my arts and letters half of my brain up and running.

Bryan Cantrill:

There you go.

Dan McDonald:

Or LSNA. Sorry. I'm a Michigan grad, LSNA. Let me say that. To keep the LSNA part of my brain up and running.

Dan McDonald:

And the Sumner book was recommended by multiple sources, and this is like a a Yale law grad who wrote it, like, I don't know if it's part of his thesis, but he's a legal historian first and foremost.

Bryan Cantrill:

And and and, you you read the book. You enjoyed it, it sounds like.

Dan McDonald:

I I am not through Sumner entirely. I've been

Bryan Cantrill:

reading It's okay. No. No. It's for reasons. Don't don't let Adam look at you side eyed.

Bryan Cantrill:

I it's it's it's fine. That's Okay.

Dan McDonald:

I'm in the middle of Andrew Johnson's presidency right now, so I'm about three quarters of the book.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh, nice. I I gotta I I think he's gotta have some words, I imagine. And that book is just called Yeah. That book is called just Charles Sumner. Right?

Dan McDonald:

Charles Sumner.

Bryan Cantrill:

Mean, this is the advantage of going back and, revisiting some folks that probably merit a revisit and haven't revisited in a while. That looks great. Alright. Well, that's, two great recommendations. That's good stuff.

Bryan Cantrill:

Thank you. Thank you.

Dan McDonald:

Thank you for the floor.

Bryan Cantrill:

You bet. Absolutely. And then we there was another another series that came in from Andrew Lilly Brinker, who I guess is either a Blue Jays fan or a Donders fan. Very upset that we have scheduled this during the World Series, which I feel is like I feel it's fair to be upset. Think that's fine.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. That's right.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. I mean, I feel that we've got I I feel that like baseball ends for most people before this. So, know, if you're not if but the recommendations were the let's see. Pull all these up. Measurement by Paul Lockhart, a math teacher famous for his essay, a mathematician's lament published in 2002, which decried the state of math education in The US.

Bryan Cantrill:

And so measurement is Lockhart's attempt on how to teach math in a way that prioritizes fun and intuition building. So that's what looks good. I'll place a post a link to this entire thread from Andrew. To mock a mockingbird by, by Raymond Smollyon. Smollyon, famous for writing entertaining and accessible math books, outdoes himself here with a sly introduction to combinatory logic, through an extended parable about a forest full of birds.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. That's the thing that's that's what I was going. But alright. And then and then surreal numbers by Don Knuth. And in 1972, Knuth learned about surreal numbers over lunch with John Conway in 1973.

Bryan Cantrill:

Is that Conway's law, John Conway? Sure. 1973 during a vacation in Oslo, Canuth wrote a short book explaining them. Have you read that?

Adam Leventhal:

Surreal numbers?

Oliver Herman:

Yeah. No. No.

Bryan Cantrill:

I I've

Adam Leventhal:

never heard of that. That sounds great.

Bryan Cantrill:

Sounds great. And he says that all these are connected at a goal of making math fun and accessible, and building intuition rather than treating math as memorization, recitation, and application effects. So this all looks like three great books. And thank you, Andrew, for the recommendation. And I would say that I hope your team did well, but the fact is all baseball fans hope that both teams lose.

Bryan Cantrill:

So, you know, I don't know what else to tell you. And and I hope your team moves to another city and your heart gets ripped out. No. Wait a minute. I didn't mean to say that.

Bryan Cantrill:

Is that's the Discord link you I'm posting.

Adam Leventhal:

Hi. Good.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Exactly. Excuse me. Well, I I know this is when the and I know we've talked about this, but, you know, my kids love to just call me a boomer just to really get under my skin, and it works extremely well, unfortunately. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. I'm gonna have to have to post this link later when I'm in a better I cannot get this link for whatever reason to post, but that's another another recommendation. I've got one other book. Are we at the end?

Adam Leventhal:

Before you tee. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've I've one more before

Bryan Cantrill:

you. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Is book fiction that I read. And I I given this recommendation four or five chapters in, I would say unequivocally, it was the most beautiful, wonderful thing I had ever read. And and I was reading it was do ever get to these some of the some of the these books where you just read it slowly? Like you're rationing it out because you know that there's a finite number of pages and you don't want it to be over.

Adam Leventhal:

That was me for like the first four or five chapters were that for me. And then the sort of plot got going, and it was good. And it just it did not I mean, it it's it was tough to maintain that pace. It was a delightful book, book of fiction about childhood friends who later go to college and and build a video game and then a video game company. And it is right on the nose.

Adam Leventhal:

Like, these kids are born in 1975 or something. So right on the nose, Xer. So Oregon Trail generation, a lot of just computer stuff

Bryan Cantrill:

that was

Adam Leventhal:

like square my childhood. I would just say it did not keep up the pace of the first few chapters. It was still terrific.

Bryan Cantrill:

But Is this like microsurfs meets ready player one?

Adam Leventhal:

It's microsurfs meets ready player one. Yeah. I think I think I think that's right.

Bryan Cantrill:

It's like what you've just said is nonsense, sir. No. No. This looks yeah. It looks great.

Bryan Cantrill:

And I don't know what to do with my expectations. My expectations are both high. I know. I'm giving up I'm very I'm give

Adam Leventhal:

I'm I guess it's like, just read the first few chapters. Don't expect the whole book to be as good as those are, but it was it was on balance a very good book. Really enjoyed it.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. That looks good. And then the, yeah. That that looks that looks very good. With the Shakespeare in reference to boot, I guess.

Bryan Cantrill:

Or does that Yes. Okay. Does that that that presumably plays Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. Factor factors in yeah. There's there's there's some Shakespeare, thrown in for good measure. Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's awesome. So I think I'll read it. I think it's what we I'm am I waiting for, for for Paulie White to review that one or am just no. No. No.

Bryan Cantrill:

I'm going for it. Full set. Full set on that one.

Adam Leventhal:

This is like the the like, when I think I'm gonna hate a book, I take it out from the library. This one I took out from the library and then bought it.

Bryan Cantrill:

Oh. I was so fired up it. Okay. So you actually what you went to go hate read it and then had to, like, shift gears and actually buy it?

Adam Leventhal:

No. No. No. No. No.

Adam Leventhal:

Most of the time, I'm most of the time, I'm just a cheapskate, and I get books that I'm I'm interested in from the library. And I don't wanna acquire more stuff because I don't ever put it. But this this was stuff I wanted to own.

Bryan Cantrill:

Okay. Alright. Well, that's There you go. That sounds good. I and I'm I'm Yeah.

Bryan Cantrill:

I'm gonna read that one. Okay. So if we if we are at the end Yep. We and I think actually, let me just make sure actually, I'm gonna let me get two more in there because they're both on my queue, and they both been recommended by listeners to the pod kind of. One is and we talked about this on our episode with Jerry Newman, but one is as time goes by from the industrial revolution to the information revolution, by Chris Freeman, and Francisco Laucha.

Bryan Cantrill:

That's wow. That's Portuguese. I do not understand how to pronounce that. The this is what he recommended is a is a denser and more thorough treatment of the ideas in Carlo Arappa's book. So I'm excited to read that.

Bryan Cantrill:

And then The Box by Mark Levinson, which our colleague, CJ, read, and and enjoyed that one. So I can't tell if CJ was recommending it to me when he handed it to me or not, though. So don't know. I'll let you know. But I'm

Adam Leventhal:

gonna like, burn this.

Bryan Cantrill:

So Yeah. Exactly. Could you please just

Adam Leventhal:

Did need kindling? Because I have this book.

Bryan Cantrill:

Exactly. This book. No. He did this is about the, invention of the shipping container and of, like, the the twist locks and the things that you needed to, like, invent modern shipping. So that looks, really pretty interesting.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. So that I think that that's it. That's our our books in the box five. And then the final book, which I am currently reading have you started Have you

Adam Leventhal:

I'm currently reading. I have not finished it, but I've I've but I'm you can quiz me on the first few chapters for sure.

Bryan Cantrill:

Alright. So we alluded to it in a previous episode, but this is a founder versus investor, by Liz Zalman and Jerry Newman. And they as promised, when we had Jerry Newman on here, we're like, we've gotta have you and Liz back. So we're gonna do it. We are gonna do it on November 17.

Bryan Cantrill:

It's going to be at noon Pacific. So at a time that is friendly ish. I don't know. That's gonna be, at at at 3PM on the East Coast. And we're gonna have, the the the the the way the book is structured.

Bryan Cantrill:

You've got Liz's perspective as a founder, Jerry's perspective as an investor. And then, Adam, in addition to you and me, we'll have Steve, the CEO of Oxide, will join us. And then, we're also gonna have Seth, join us from Eclipse. So it's To be

Adam Leventhal:

clear, Oxide's, you know, Eclipse was Oxide's first investor.

Bryan Cantrill:

So That's right. So we are gonna have, like, a couple of investors and a couple of founders and, like, it it's gonna be, you know Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

It I think a big group therapy session.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. It could be a group therapy session. I think it's gonna I think we're gonna get into it. I'm actually looking forward to it. I think we're gonna we're we're we're really, it's gonna be fun.

Bryan Cantrill:

So

Adam Leventhal:

Yeah. So you have you got a couple weeks to go read it. Definitely recommend going going to read it. One of my favorite things, Brian, is that there's often very different viewpoints on on some of these same topics, as you know, expressed by Liz and by Jerry. And I and I enjoy some of them are resolved where they say, you know, agree to disagree.

Adam Leventhal:

Some of them, they just let you figure it out yourself.

Bryan Cantrill:

And some of them, you figure it out yourself. And the thing that I love about this book is that they wanted to get a forward written by a founder and a VC. And so they got the founder, Sandy Lerner, who famously had her company stolen from her from VCs at at Cisco. They got Sandy wrote the founders forward. They could not get a VC to write the VC forward because they thought the book was too mean, which I is hilarious to me because I'm like, this is not mean.

Adam Leventhal:

I No. The opposite. Like, time to make this Like, it is like We are pulling punches here.

Bryan Cantrill:

We punches are 100% being pulled, And this book is definitely not mean. It's funny, but it is not mean. And I think we're gonna we're we're gonna put some, I think I think maybe maybe we'll be mean. You know what? Maybe we'll show VCs what mean actually is.

Bryan Cantrill:

So how's that for a teaser? Anyway, that's gonna fun. November 17. And then Nice. Next week, we've got a banger on Yes.

Bryan Cantrill:

So we have got once again, it just feels like this is very on brand that we in debugging an issue, we have discovered a a pretty deep issue. And, we're gonna have Dave and John and team on here to discuss it. Looking forward to it. A Yeah. An issue that we have we have dubbed Dave has dubbed Future Lock.

Bryan Cantrill:

So should be enough of a teaser. Anyway, it's gonna be Yeah.

Adam Leventhal:

Stay tuned. It's gonna be great. Looking forward to

Bryan Cantrill:

So we got a lot of good stuff coming. A lot of great, but these are good books in the box. Some, some books in the bonfire, mainly Kendall's, at the Molly White's review for that, but a lot of good stuff. So a lot of good reading on it. I just so I'm looking forward to getting the queue reloaded and a lot of lot of good stuff to go chase down here this coming year.

Bryan Cantrill:

Yeah. Likewise. Alright. Well, thank you very much everyone who joined us. Thanks, Tom and Oliver and Dan and everyone else who had recommendations online.

Bryan Cantrill:

Appreciate you. Alright. Thanks, everyone. See you next time.