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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Nikki The Death Doula (00:00.485)
because I'm a mess.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.635)
We're all a mess. What a great way to start. Hi, Nikki. For those of you listening, we are watching. We are joined by our friend and also a member of our Coaches Circle, Nikki, the Deaf Doola. So I'll just let you introduce yourself and say a little bit about what you do and how you got into the work before we jump in.
Nikki The Death Doula (00:05.347)
Hi, MMS.
Nikki The Death Doula (00:28.357)
Sure. Well, hello, everybody. My name is Nikki the Death Dula. I'm in Columbus, Ohio. I'm a Death Dula and a grief coach and kind of a all things death and dying and grief go to person, I guess, which sounds depressing, but I promise you it's not. And I'm not a depressing person, I don't think. Yeah, so I work as a Death Dula. I work with people who are facing end of life, terminal illness, aging, like whatever end of life might be. they're
and their loved ones, their caregivers to just kind of help them navigate the whole end of life space because there's a whole lot that goes into death and dying. And it can be very confusing and very scary if you've never been a part of that before, if you've never dealt with anybody at end of life, especially when it's, even if you have, if it's somebody you love and somebody you hold dear, it's a difficult space and the decisions are all very different when it's somebody close to you. So I help people with just navigating the emotional realm, some of the practicalities.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03.727)
.
Nikki The Death Doula (01:26.661)
Just kind of getting everything in order so that somebody who is at end of life can have the most fulfilling and satisfactory end of life experience as possible. As far as I know, you only get to die once. So I would like people to have that be a nice moment with their family instead of scrambling at the last seconds to do all the things. I also do grief coaching. So I work with people after they've experienced a significant loss in their life to help them understand the
Taina Brown she/hers (01:33.602)
you Okay.
Nikki The Death Doula (01:55.351)
exciting new world of grief and what it's like to learn to be your new best self after a significant loss. So that's the nutshell version of what I do.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:06.721)
Yeah. How did you decide to do this? Because this is heavy work. It's not... Like there's... I mean, I don't think there's room for toxic positivity anywhere, but there's definitely no way to like gloss over any of these kinds of issues. So like what was the thing that was...
Nikki The Death Doula (02:13.359)
Yes.
Nikki The Death Doula (02:23.375)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:29.057)
that triggered you to be like, yeah, going to work with people who are grieving and who are about to die.
Nikki The Death Doula (02:29.125)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (02:35.383)
Yeah, you it's interesting you brought up toxic positivity because that's a little the reason why I got into this. So I had I suffered my own significant losses in my life like most of us have, you know, and when I first of all, there are losses I had there are non death losses that we don't talk about. Like those are there's a broad term called disenfranchised grief. And that's grief that's not societally recognized or dealt with things like losing a job losing
a sense of identity, loss of friendships, friendship breakups, even just like relationship breakups in any sense, can cause a lot of grief. And I had a couple of those. My brother died unexpectedly. One of my best friends died just prior to that from an overdose. And it's just all these things happen. And I didn't realize a lot of the stuff I was feeling was related to grief and grieving. And
Taina Brown she/hers (03:19.17)
. .
Nikki The Death Doula (03:31.288)
you know, I did, went on my own journey through that and I learned so much and I realized while I was working through my own grief that there's, these are things we don't talk about. So nobody knows what to do when they're grieving. And it's so, I felt isolated, I felt alone and I thought I was going crazy all the time. And now I realize everybody feels that way. And so if I can help somebody feel less alone and feel less crazy, but as the toxic positivity part, I never understood why until I started learning more about grief and grieving, but
Taina Brown she/hers (03:45.669)
Mm hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (04:01.015)
After my brother died, I got the stupid things people say at funerals and I know they come from a place of heart with the things of he's in a better place or it's all in God's plan. And I hate that. I hate that so much because like if it was in God's plan for my niece and nephew to lose their father as when they're still children and not have him around to celebrate their weddings and they both have kids now and be a grandfather. Wow, that's a God I don't want to look into.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:08.585)
.
Nikki The Death Doula (04:31.045)
You know, and it's just, we say these things because we don't know what to say because we're uncomfortable. So we just spit the same platitudes we've heard a million times. But there's always this attitude of, you'll get past this in time. Don't worry. Everything's going be great. You'll get over it. And that's doing somebody a huge disservice to tell them that they will get over it or they'll feel fine after a year. Because what if they don't?
Taina Brown she/hers (04:38.932)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:54.713)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (04:57.025)
You know, I meet so many people that have had losses and it's been several years and they still feel terrible and they're like, what's wrong with me? Sorry, you were gone. Right?
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (04:57.494)
And
Taina Brown she/hers (05:01.28)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (05:04.002)
in a year is generous in America where you get three days of bereavement leave and that's only if it's somebody your company and that's if your company's generous and if that company deems that person worthy of a whopping three days.
Nikki The Death Doula (05:15.973)
Right. Yeah. Don't get me started on that or get me started on that. That's you go there if you want. Yeah. No, that's there are some we can't we can't label family dynamics. We can't like I have a great relationship with my mother. You might not. Maybe you were raised by your aunt because your mom died or is in prison or something horrible has happened to your mother and you're being raised by your second cousin.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:15.987)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. it's usually, yeah, it's usually just like immediate family.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (05:22.062)
Well, I that's, I, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:36.8)
Mm.
Nikki The Death Doula (05:44.742)
And for all intents and purposes, that is your mother. And your second cousin dies. And your company is like, well, they're not a real relative. It's not your mom, it's not a direct relative. So you can't have bereavement for that. We can't put labels on family dynamics like that.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:58.271)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (06:03.264)
or God forbid, parent, like what I think most people would probably view as the most horrific loss would be a parent losing a child, especially a young child. And so many companies, you get three days. And after that, guess what? You're pulling from your PTO, from your vacation, whatever you have. Maybe you can take FMLA, but like, you're at your worst possible moment and now you're having to stress about
Nikki The Death Doula (06:12.869)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (06:30.522)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (06:31.128)
how you're gonna pay the bills on top of that. This country does not do grief well, as an understatement.
Nikki The Death Doula (06:33.135)
Right. No, no. And imagine being a mother who lost a child, a baby, especially if it was a miscarriage situation or even a stillborn situation. Like I have no children, so I can't possibly understand that devastation. But it's not just the loss of that child, but all the things that your body goes through after that. And to be at work and have to do your job and A, be
Taina Brown she/hers (06:35.19)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (07:01.807)
grieving the most awful loss you could imagine and having like possibly embarrassing things going on with your body.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (07:10.136)
comfortable and painful reminders traumatic. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (07:11.173)
Right. Right. And maybe your coworkers didn't know about that and they want to see pictures of the baby.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (07:17.912)
Well, yeah, because we don't handle loss well in this country so much to the point that we advise women or people who are able to give birth that they shouldn't even tell anyone until the second trimester because you don't want to make other people uncomfortable. God forbid you miscarry. it's like, so that what? So you're there left alone to try and navigate through your grief when and no one knew. And having been through that, having had a miscarriage and following that advice, you know,
Nikki The Death Doula (07:32.867)
Yeah, right.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:38.986)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (07:41.241)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (07:46.574)
I know that that was something with my second pregnancy then when I had my son, I didn't wait because I'm like, I didn't that support having to tell people that you've had this loss when they never knew that the thing was happening. It's even more difficult. Right. And so, yeah, we just we just don't do grief well in this country, as you know, as you know. And I'm sure there are some cultures that do it much better.
Nikki The Death Doula (08:04.835)
No, we do not. We do not.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:04.983)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (08:09.103)
There are, I mean, we're not, it's not just the U S that handles this crap poorly. There are plenty of other countries too, that are just like, they would rather just keep this stuff over there and not, not even think about it. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:20.028)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (08:20.376)
I feel like it's mostly Western cultures. Maybe I'm wrong, but that would be my inclination.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:22.962)
Yeah, well that was going to be my next question. know, when you're working with people who are in the grieving process or anticipating the grieving process because maybe they're getting ready to lose someone or they're getting ready to pass themselves and so they're grieving their own loss of life, right? are there like rituals or methods that are helpful to like just kind of steady that person and just kind of ground them?
Nikki The Death Doula (08:53.241)
Well, that's going to be different for everybody. I mean, I have things I will try with people. I love doing creative visualization or guided meditations if they're accepting of that or if that's something they're interested in. But I never come in with my own beliefs or my own spirituality, obviously, because that's not my place to do that. I'm there to meet them where they are. So
Part of my process is this is why I hope to come in and work with people early on enough that I can get to know them as a person. Because even if I work with somebody who say Muslim and I know enough about Muslim to understand their Islam culture, like what their end of life experience might be, that might not be how they do it though. Because everybody has their own interpretations and their own relationship with their religions.
and their cultural backgrounds. and working with somebody who was born in the United States who practices the one religion versus somebody who's born somewhere else and happens to just be here, they're going to have very different backgrounds. So, I will spend the time to get to know them as a person outside of their beliefs and what their beliefs are so that I can have a good understanding of what might be comforting to them, right? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (09:57.783)
and
Nikki The Death Doula (10:06.489)
guided meditation, somebody might be like, that the hell away from me. I don't want to see that. I don't care about that. Get away, play some loud music and leave me alone. You know, I, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:09.338)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (10:18.12)
We, I'm curious, this who knows, we're just gonna go all over the place probably. But again, we don't, right? We don't, I think we're just all so afraid of our own mortality. And I think part of us, cause we don't talk about it, we keep it hidden. So with my son, we've been, I have been since he was a baby, like just always, we've always talked about everyone dies. You're gonna die, mom and dad are gonna die. Everyone you love and know is gonna die. And that sounds really morbid.
Nikki The Death Doula (10:23.299)
It's messy.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:24.603)
It's messy.
Nikki The Death Doula (10:30.607)
Sure.
Nikki The Death Doula (10:45.827)
Yeah. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (10:47.768)
But also I think it's such a disservice when we don't say, like we don't be honest about the fact that, know, the only thing any of us are guaranteed is that we aren't gonna make it out of here alive. Like none of us makes it out of here alive. And we talk to our son about that all the time. And he seems, there's always a little part of me that's like, is that gonna make him too callous, too flip, too, you know, whatever, not care. But he's deeply empathetic. He cares and feels a lot. But he said,
Nikki The Death Doula (10:54.713)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (10:59.717)
Correct.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (11:16.142)
too many losses, honestly, for a nine-year-old, but he seems to be so far, knock on wood, handling it really well, like understanding, like he feels sad, right, about this person being gone, but it doesn't seem like there's, I haven't yet heard him and he's still young, so it could change, but I remember being his age and having this like overwhelming fear.
and doom around what happens after, where do we go? What's the, you know, and I think purpose, cause we just never even talked about death. And with my son, it's more like everybody dies. Like we're all going to go there. know, like it seems more matter of fact. Anyway, all that to say, like, and then we saw a deer down the side of the road yesterday. I was like trying to get him to look away from it. And he's like, it's okay, mom, everything dies. And I'm like, okay. Like even though he also gets sad about like leaving a stuffed animal at the store because you know, he's so emotional about it anyway.
Nikki The Death Doula (11:42.223)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:42.368)
Hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (11:48.143)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (11:59.622)
Aww.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (12:07.694)
All of that to say, the people you work with and just people in general, like how many, do you think, are people thinking about their death a lot? Or are people just trying to avoid this stuff and ignore it? And is that why so many people don't bother to do estate planning? Don't write a will, don't do all that. Like, I'm just curious, do you think people are like thinking a lot about this or do most of us just go through our lives trying to act as if death isn't gonna happen to us?
Taina Brown she/hers (12:15.957)
You You
Nikki The Death Doula (12:22.413)
Right. Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (12:32.389)
So I think it's a little bit of everything there, but I would say a big part of it is death is not in our face every day. We don't deal with it. And that's just how our culture works, right? If you think back, even our culture in the US, you think back prior to the Civil War, that was kind of one thing that changed a lot of how we deal with death and dying. And I can get into that if you want. if you think back to prior to that,
Taina Brown she/hers (12:53.661)
Okay. Okay.
Nikki The Death Doula (12:59.493)
Even in our culture, even here in the United States, we would have our family stayed in one community, right? Our kids would grow up and get married to somebody else and they would be two houses over or just on the other end of the property line or whatever. They were in the same town. So when somebody came to end of life, everybody was there and they saw, wow, mom's been slipping a lot lately. Mom's getting worse and worse and worse. And we watched mom go through the dying process and she died in the home. They had the wake in the home. They took the body and they buried it. And we don't do that now.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:16.833)
.
Nikki The Death Doula (13:29.061)
That's all changed. We don't handle stuff in the home. So we don't see it every day. And even if it wasn't our own mom, you know, our next door neighbor's mom or grandmother, she's been dying. And we've been coming over to help clean up the house and bring over food or whatever. Like, we had communities that spent so much time together that we all knew each other and we all saw death and dying all the time. And we don't do that now. Like, death is something that happens in another place. And then we come in after the fact of the funeral.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:51.725)
You You
Nikki The Death Doula (13:57.668)
So because we're not looking at it all the time, we're not thinking about it. I'm not saying it was every single day, right? But also think about mortality rates back then. were significant. Like our life expectancy was a lot lower. People died of having a cold a little bit too long. You you cut your foot on a plow in the field and you get a horrible infection and that kills you. Like death was a little more present in our faces back then. And we're not, we're just not seeing that as much. So it's not something we think about.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:08.761)
Yeah, yeah
Nikki The Death Doula (14:26.883)
So we don't think about what we need to do and what needs done until it's too late.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:32.013)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just thinking about like the different ways also that like grief shows up. And so like I've had so far in my life three major losses, right? So the first one was my dad when I was nine and then my grandmother when I was in my twenties. But we my dad died suddenly.
Nikki The Death Doula (14:42.191)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:59.028)
car accident. My grandmother, she had been sick for a while, she had lung cancer and so we kind of knew that it was coming. We just didn't know like when specifically. So that was kind of expected but then my uncle was murdered like unexpectedly like a year or two after my grandmother passed and so... No it's not, you're right.
Nikki The Death Doula (15:04.483)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (15:16.918)
Is murder ever expected? I feel like that was kind of without, you didn't really necessarily need the asterisk on that. I figured it was an unexpected murder. Well, maybe it's not, it's with murder, it's planned, right? A manslaughter isn't, I don't know. Anyway, sorry, I don't mean to make too much levity of something that's really horrible.
Nikki The Death Doula (15:20.151)
I hope not. I hope not.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:27.429)
Thank you for the-
Taina Brown she/hers (15:34.416)
No, it's fine, it's fine. I do that all the time. I just like waste words like that sometimes.
Nikki The Death Doula (15:35.813)
Thanks
Taina Brown she/hers (15:44.392)
man. But yeah, so those are like, you know, the three main losses, right? Two unexpected, one kind of expected, and two that were like really close, you know, in time and just I'm thinking about the different ways that like I process that grief. And so, you know, obviously as a child, when you lose someone, like I don't remember much about that time, but I just remember just it being kind of confusing. Like just really nobody talked to me about what was happening. And I think that's what
Nikki The Death Doula (15:48.227)
Okay. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (16:09.498)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:14.213)
That's what created a lot of the confusion and just like what kind of like extended my processing of that grief. And that's still something I feel today, the loss of my father, right? Like I was nine when that happened and I'm 43 now, you know? So it's not something that you ever really get over. It just...
slowly starts or lessens the effect of your like day-to-day life. think you just kind of I don't want to say get used to it, but learn to live with it. But then I just remember with my grandmother, like I think I don't know if it was because we were expecting it, but I just didn't cry a lot. And I am not a big crier in general, but I just remember being surprised at
Nikki The Death Doula (16:45.957)
Sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:07.011)
my lack of crying because everyone else in my family was crying a lot because was a Puerto Rican family. The grandmother's like the matriarch, right? Like every Sunday everybody was at her apartment. She was always cooking for everyone. And so it was a really big loss that was felt throughout family and extended family. But with my uncle, you know, because of the nature of his death, like that was, that was really hard. And I did cry a lot then. And so I,
Nikki The Death Doula (17:21.284)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:36.343)
I wonder like what
How do you help people understand that, that grief takes many faces and not every situation that, not every situation where grief is appropriate is gonna look the same.
Nikki The Death Doula (17:54.15)
Right. Well, and it's really going to depend on relationship too. Like what your relationship was to the person who died. And I use this example and I'm not too shy to admit that, you know, my brother died. Obviously, I was a wreck. I cried a lot. I cried more and harder when I had to put my cat down. And it's not that I loved my cat more than my brother, right? Like I love them both very much.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:15.61)
Mm-mm.
Nikki The Death Doula (18:23.619)
But we had different relationships. My cat was in my life every single day. She gave me all sorts of unconditional love. She was part of my literal routine, like to the point that I would wake up after she was gone, come downstairs and say good morning to her, even though she had been gone. Because it's part of your every single day. My brother, we didn't have the strongest relationship and we didn't speak much in the last couple of years that he was alive. Our relationship is very complicated.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:40.889)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (18:53.605)
Of course it makes sense that I was more upset about, or at least more visibly upset with her than with my brother. I still, obviously, grief is lost all the time. It's just two different relationships. And there are days after the fact where I was even more hurt by my brother's loss or my brother's death. grief has no timeline. It doesn't have a nice little, it's going to be real bad here and then it'll slowly get better. It might not.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:10.298)
Hmm
Nikki The Death Doula (19:21.529)
I've seen people lose somebody and they feel fine for like a month or two and then six months later they are an absolute train wreck. So there's no, there are million factors that can come into play as to how that's gonna make you feel day to day.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:29.017)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (19:32.864)
Yeah.
The seven stages of grief thing, think, while each of those things may be valid and a part of many grieving experiences, I think because it was called like the seven stages that people associate with the some linear journey or where I'm just like trying to get from denial to acceptance as quickly as I can, right? And yeah, that's just not how it actually works.
Nikki The Death Doula (19:42.895)
They are.
Nikki The Death Doula (19:49.145)
Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:50.507)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (19:54.75)
Yeah. Right. No. And that so that book on death and dying by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, for those of you who are in the know or who may not be, she was the one that came up with this. study, she even came out herself and was like, guys, stop using this as a guideline. That's not why I wrote this. She did a very small study on a very small portion of people, and she was studying people who they themselves were dying. Not
the people left behind. It was what they were going through during the dying process. So it was just, it's just been misconstrued left and right. and then, yeah, and people have the like, I'm supposed to get to acceptance someday, right? You might not, you might live your whole life and never accept a loss. So
Taina Brown she/hers (20:23.346)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:35.223)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:39.35)
Yeah, yeah. I think also some of those steps or stages, like it's a scale. It's not like a static yes or no, right? Like your level of anger or denial or acceptance can vary, you know? I feel like the things that I have found myself grieving, whether it's like a family member or a pet or the loss of a friendship or a job or something, it feels a lot.
Nikki The Death Doula (20:44.869)
Right.
Right. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:08.863)
less like going through stages and a lot more like unraveling to me. Like that's just like this like messy ball of yarn that like if you've ever untangled a ball of yarn or like Christmas lights like you can pull one knot out but then somehow you've created another knot sometimes you know like it's just there's no clear right right like it's just there's no real clear
Nikki The Death Doula (21:13.146)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (21:29.253)
Yeah. Yeah. You can pull it on it. It's just making the knot tighter. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:38.392)
process. it just, it's just, it's really just ambiguous and just kind of messy.
Nikki The Death Doula (21:39.299)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (21:44.502)
Yeah, I'd say like a roller coaster for me or one of those Hall of Wild Mirrors or whatever, where it's just like, no matter where you turn, things don't quite seem right. But yeah, in no way did I feel like any of the grief processes I've had to go through has it felt like, all right, step one, complete check. Step two. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (21:53.721)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (22:00.358)
Yeah, it's not. Nope. You'll come back to that first one a bit. And some of that, like some of those, you know, stages of grief you may never feel. And then people think, well, did I, did I grieve wrong? Am I griefing incorrectly? No. However you're doing it is how you're doing it. So that's valid.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:20.086)
Yeah, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about like the differences between like individual grief and like collective grief?
Nikki The Death Doula (22:29.283)
Yeah. yeah. So, collective grief has been on my mind a lot lately. For lots of fun reasons. So when we grieve in a loss on our own, we're never really grieving on our own. It's rare, right? Like when my brother died, obviously, everybody in his life was grieving. My grief, but I had my grief, whatever, all.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:35.81)
for good reason.
Nikki The Death Doula (22:55.997)
of grieving the same thing but in our own separate way. When you talk about collective grief, you have a lot of people who might not be related or correlated in any certain way grieving one event or one traumatic loss. And that can be as small as a fire in a church in a small community where they lost a building, but that was a building everybody attended every Sunday to something like COVID.
COVID is a fantastic example of a collective grief that we, I would venture to say we have not dealt with at all. Yeah, so.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:31.514)
Yeah, I would agree with you there.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (23:34.06)
Well, yeah, because it's also not gone and we're now doing everything we can to make it just as bad again. So.
Nikki The Death Doula (23:39.366)
Yeah, 100%. But yeah, it's easy to think of things collectively like, know, Hurricane Katrina or natural disasters are fantastic example of collective grief because you have people in the direct vicinity that were impacted. They may have lost their homes, they may have lost relatives or pets, jobs, like physical things or cars, whatever.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:39.552)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (24:02.831)
But then you've got the people outside the community that are holding that space, the people in it who are seeing like these people are coming to us now because they don't have anywhere to go. And they've got their own little set of grief with that. And it kind of like goes out from there. But it's a little easier to feel less alone with collective grief. But it's, it's still it's easy to isolate yourself. Like, yeah, I'm feeling sad about hurricane, the hurricane loss. But, you know, this person's
were more closely involved. They lost their home home. just lost, you I had to have some renovations done and my car got flooded out, but they lost everything. Like it's easy to kind of silo yourself, but you're still all grieving the same thing. I don't know if that answered your question at all.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:41.935)
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (24:45.612)
to yeah, well, in order to deny it, right, to deny it for yourself, because, you know, I think part of what you're telling Katrina and I would say like with what's, you know, the genocide happening in Gaza and other places, Congo and other places around the world right now, when you're nowhere near you're on a different continent, it doesn't directly affect you. Let's say you don't know even anyone who's Palestinian, right, or whatever. But we're all bearing witness to we live in a world now where
Nikki The Death Doula (24:49.573)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:03.903)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (25:08.75)
we bear witness to what's happening all over the globe, which is another thing that's very different than the Civil War times, right? Where not only are we not seeing grief at that personal level, but we're seeing it so much both in like through social media happening in the world in real life, but then also media and the way that like pop culture and things can make death and dying and murder and all those things seem like depersonalized, desensitized to it. But like,
Nikki The Death Doula (25:10.425)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (25:20.837)
Thanks.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:24.967)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:35.271)
you .
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (25:36.002)
When we're bearing collective witness to something that's happening, it's really easy to feel grief because it's awful. I mean, we're seeing images of children starving to death. Like, of course, how does that not affect you if you have a heart?
Nikki The Death Doula (25:38.831)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (25:48.686)
And it's also really easy then to deny it and make and let other people gaslight you when they say like, what's wrong with you? That's not even happening to you. Or, you know, you don't even know those people. You don't know anyone affected. And then you start to question yourself and think that you're overreacting or you're being silly. Or again, that comparison stuff where we get into comparative suffering and I don't have that bad a thing to do. And then we are it's another way we suppress grief, which suppress grief is going to still come out somehow. Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:02.82)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:13.189)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:15.97)
You Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:16.067)
Yeah. And I see a lot of that with celebrity deaths when a celebrity dies and somebody might be on their social media and they're just really struggling with like, they're really devastated that, you know, the celebrity they liked is gone and you'll get people like, you never even knew them. Like why on earth are you grieving that? Like shut up, let them, let them grieve that. They're perfectly allowed to have that feeling of grief and loss. No, maybe they didn't know them.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:35.67)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (26:43.929)
that person meant something to them for whatever reason. they wrote, maybe as a musician who wrote music that got them through the hardest part of their life or, you know, they just identified with it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Do not shame people on their grief ever, please. For the love of God.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:58.759)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (27:00.034)
It feels like what we do to boys when we're like, you know, rub some dirt in it. It's these ways that we don't want to have people feel feelings.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:05.052)
yeah, yeah, get over it. up. Right, man up.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:09.629)
Yeah, yeah. I remember when Prince died, I had to take a day off work. And so, and that was like a really, that level of grief, just, I was not expecting to feel that way. Because again, like I was, I think I was trying to gaslight myself, because I was like, well, I didn't even know this person. Like, why am I feeling so sad? Like, why am I feeling such a devastating loss? But I think, you know, the impact of
Nikki The Death Doula (27:15.609)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:22.533)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:29.731)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:40.563)
you know, his music, his queerness, you know, just like it was such a big influence and just like my own identity and journey that it felt, it feels like a loss, you know, it feels like a loss when someone has an impact on your life, no matter how close you are. It is, yeah, you're right, you're right. Yeah, it is a loss.
Nikki The Death Doula (27:42.309)
Sure.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (27:56.194)
How about it is a loss?
Nikki The Death Doula (27:58.522)
Yeah, it is. It's a loss. Yeah, I'm still like, I have many thoughts around Robin Williams' death too. So many thoughts around that. And there's, that's been coming up again because with Bruce Willis fighting his dementia. And a lot of people are talking about Lewy body dementia and Alzheimer's and all these memory loss illnesses and our rights at end of life, you know, and what that looks like. And we'd go back to him a
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (28:27.394)
That's something, well, that's something interesting to talk about because more time about grief and dying. That's another way I feel like our culture really falls short on death. We don't, there's no dignity. We don't know how, you know, that's, think there are a few places, Oregon I know is one. think maybe there's like three states or something that have death and dignity laws that allow you to choose when to end your life. If you are, are there that many now? Gosh, that's great.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:35.487)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (28:48.517)
11 states.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:51.14)
11. OK.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (28:53.102)
But still on the whole, is not something that, and I think often that's looked down on. I think personally, think religion has a lot to do with that. But it's just such a problem because, I mean, you see people who go through the end of life and it can be a very undignified process, know, bodily functioning, just all sorts of things that happen and just not the way that many of us, if we had the choice and knew, not all of us get the gift of knowing when we're going to die and it can be a gift.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:00.245)
All for sure.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:01.701)
100%.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:19.13)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:19.24)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:22.149)
Sure. Sure.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (29:23.256)
Sometimes it's not a gift, I can't be good. But if we have that opportunity to say, know when I'm gonna die, I know I'm dying, to be able to say, I wanna do that in a way that allows me to go out with some dignity, like we allow that for fucking cats and dogs and I love cats and dogs. And I'm not saying we shouldn't do it for them, but if we can do it for them, why can we not do it for ourselves? It baffles me. And I'm wondering, as you've worked with people who are going through that process and know some of the indignity that can happen in their relatives,
Taina Brown she/hers (29:38.117)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:43.929)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:43.977)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (29:51.662)
bearing witness to some of that indignity. What are your thoughts about death and the dignity with death sort of laws?
Nikki The Death Doula (29:53.21)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (29:57.926)
Yeah. Well, so first of all, if somebody is dying of a terminal illness, hospice needs to be involved. Okay. Hospice exists for a very good reason. And it is paid for. If you're on Medicare, it is free to you, right? There are private hospices, right? Like for the love of God, get on hospice and start it early. Cause there have been studies on this since they started. this hospice is relatively, it's a new phenomenon, right?
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (30:13.389)
For now.
Nikki The Death Doula (30:25.381)
It's only been in the US since the 70s or early 80s, I think. And they've been doing studies on it and they're proving that people who start hospice early live an average of like three to eight days longer and they have a better quality of their last days, right? So if that is an option, please start that because they will do everything in their power to keep you comfortable, right? And there's, could...
Taina Brown she/hers (30:28.743)
Mm hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:36.435)
.
Nikki The Death Doula (30:51.799)
We could do an hour and a half on myths with hospice. They're not in there to push drugs. They're not going to kill your mom. There's just people think that because they wait too long to call hospice and the hospice comes in when mom's already dying anyway. So, sorry, get on a rant on that. But if you have hospice involved, they can give you a much better quality of life and they can help you with some of those dignity issues, right? They're not there to push anything. They're there to make you as comfortable as possible. So that is always that's an option anywhere in the US. So
Taina Brown she/hers (31:03.862)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (31:22.125)
I would love to see things like medical aid and dying more widely available. I can, me being me, I like to try to see both sides and I can understand the thoughts behind it. But I think there's also a lot of myths and misguidance and miseducation around what medical aid and dying is. And within the United States, every state has, every state where it's legalized has their own parameters with it. But overall, you have to go through a process to get approved for it. You have to have two to three different doctors that say it's okay, there's a waiting period.
It's not like you just call somebody on the phone like I'd like to die, please and they bring drugs over. is not how this works. And of all the people who have been approved, I think only like 30 % have utilized it. Unfortunately, right now with the way the laws are written, it's not an option for things like Alzheimer's because you have to be mentally cognizant and you have to be physically able to take the medication yourself. You have to self ingest it. So things like ALS, it's not.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:04.951)
Hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (32:20.677)
It's not necessarily an option for either. So I'd love for people to at least understand that aspect. And I don't know where I was going with any of that, but I would love this to be an option for anybody, right? Like I know myself, I don't know how I would feel if I were in that situation. It's really gonna depend. I'm perfectly comfortable with the dying process, because I've seen it enough now. But I don't know what mine individually might be like. And if it's gonna be really awful.
I might like to have that ability to have that autonomy. Yeah, to have the choice and the autonomy to take that to myself, right? Again, if you have a great hospice team, you shouldn't have to worry about suffering. You shouldn't have to worry about being in pain. They should be able to manage that. If that's not being managed, you need to find another hospice, but that still should at least be the option available to me.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:54.136)
That choice. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:15.761)
Yeah. .
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (33:17.026)
Yeah, think, yes, hospice is fantastic. I used to be a volunteer with hospice for years and it was such a beautiful gift to be able to be there and help people find comfort and peace during that time and to be there when people were dying and everything. And I loved that experience. I actually volunteered in hospice where they were in, it was a hospice care center where people went to die versus being at home when they died. Anyway, that's another story.
Nikki The Death Doula (33:27.343)
Thanks.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:41.695)
.
Nikki The Death Doula (33:42.981)
Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (33:46.286)
but I think part of it too is it's not just like the pain, that's a big part of it, but for certain people, and this is its own issue, but like I'm thinking of my father in law who, not somebody who receives help well, not somebody who, you know, wanted his final, like if he knew he had very little time, I think if he could have been given the choice, you can have your family around you to say goodbye to you and whatever versus like,
you're just going to be having to have people help you go to the bathroom and some of the just some of the things that were like, I think you would have made that choice. Right. And anyway, so I think there's nothing wrong with that either. I'm I'm curious, as you were talking about that, though, what has your work made you think about your own death? Because I'm sure you're thinking about death a lot. And there's no way you don't think about your own death a lot. I think about my own death quite a bit now that I've had a kid. I used to very much not think about death and having a kid has changed all of that.
Nikki The Death Doula (34:20.421)
Great.
Nikki The Death Doula (34:39.237)
yeah, I have no doubt.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (34:42.464)
Yeah. So I'm curious, like, what is it, what do you think about death in general and for yourself? Like, how often are you thinking about it? What do you think it might be like? What do you want to do to make sure you feel good about your death and all of that?
Nikki The Death Doula (34:53.285)
Yeah. So I do get asked about this a lot and I never really know how to answer it. Like obviously my views on death have changed a lot since I have been doing what I do. I have definitely a more appreciation for it. I can see and recognize the beauty in this transition. I, I, we get compared to birth duel as a lot because we do very similar processes. I don't know. I find childbirth really icky and disgusting. It's not my thing.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:59.038)
. you
Nikki The Death Doula (35:23.085)
I'm okay with the end of life part, but I can recognize the beauty in both, right? You hear all the time, like what a beautiful moment childbirth is. And there's no reason death can't be the same thing. And it's a sacred space, it's intimate, and it can be very beautiful. Is it pretty all the time? No, no, it's not. But it is just another part of our lives. And I can appreciate that. Am I still a little scared of death? Sure.
I don't know what's beyond that door. I've walked people right to that door, but I can't see through it. I don't know what's on the other side. And obviously, I don't know what my death will be. Is it going to be old age? It'd be terminal illness? Am going to hit by a card tomorrow? I don't know, obviously. the dying is scary. It's scary for a lot of people. And I think that's... Most of the people I work with, that's their biggest fear. Am I going to be in pain? Is this going to be hard? What is the dying going to be like?
Most of the folks I've worked with have had terminal illness and they're at that point where like, I'm kind of ready for this to be over, but I'm scared of how it will go. So, but for me, personally, yes. Sorry.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:22.801)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (36:31.846)
My fear is not the pain or the journey. actually, there's a part of me that can get kind of excited. Like, it's the most unknown thing. It's the mystery that all of us want to know. And at some point, I'm going to get to find out, right? Like, there is something kind of exciting about that. The hardest part, I think, for a lot of people, at least in my experience and in my world, and I'm curious what you think about that is...
Nikki The Death Doula (36:41.849)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (36:54.528)
It's more the loss, like it's the not getting to see my loved ones anymore, right? Or am I fierce for them? Like I don't, I'm worried about my son when I die, because I know how hard it is to lose someone you love and for them not to be there anymore. And all of the lost opportunities to get, know, at whatever point that happens, he's always going to be out there. There's always going to be stuff in his life I'm going to miss out on. It's that stuff that's the part that causes me like all of the horrible feelings about death, not really the.
Nikki The Death Doula (37:03.567)
Sure.
All
Nikki The Death Doula (37:10.361)
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (37:18.917)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (37:19.95)
process or what happens. That may not be the case for everyone. I think a lot of people are afraid. My mom's very afraid of what happens after we die. But I think most people feels more like it's just this like, but there's but life's really great. Right? Like I don't want to I don't want to not have that anymore.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:23.196)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (37:24.485)
Sure. Sure.
Nikki The Death Doula (37:31.973)
Yeah. Well, and it is because that's all we know. Who knows? Maybe what's after is a lot better. I don't, I have no idea. Let's hope so.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:37.669)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (37:40.428)
my hope? Or maybe it's absolutely nothing, which is also okay too, right? Like whatever. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:41.914)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (37:45.334)
I mean, there was, I think it was Mark Twain who, I'm pretty sure it was Mark Twain who had a quote about, I'm not afraid of death because I was dead all this time before I was born. So you think if you want to think about that, like think about what your life was like before you were born.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:59.651)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (38:00.718)
Watch the movie Soul. Can't recommend it enough. Pixar movie Soul. Watch it with my kid when he was little. That was another thing that helped us. And if you have young children and are like wanting to give them a better relationship with death than most of us have received, I think starting them on that movie super, super early, my kid watched it as soon as it came out and he was very young. I think he was three or four. And it really, really helped us with the conversation around death too, because he saw this beautiful gift of like, it's very much that it's like.
Nikki The Death Doula (38:12.623)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (38:18.585)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:23.289)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (38:26.99)
we just go into like the souls in the movie sort of jump into a new body, right? So a baby's born, a soul comes, if someone dies, their soul goes into like this state. We don't know if that's what happens, but it certainly gives you and kids like my son naturally understood that to the point where I'm like, he's still young enough to maybe remember a little of that pre door experience, right? Like maybe there's something to it. But anyway, I do. I love that movie and I think it really helps. And it also helps adults, I think, in being able to say like,
Nikki The Death Doula (38:48.227)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (38:56.014)
Okay, yeah, that's, there is that, like, it's cool. That's exciting.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:00.492)
Yeah, I think with, you you said that sometimes or death doulas get compared to birth doulas because you kind of
It's a similar process. And I think what it's important to point out about that, or both of those processes, is that there is a process in place, right? Which creates this space to navigate what that transition or what that process is going to look like, right? And I think, you know, I grew up super religious. So I have a lot of religious trauma about death, right? Because of heaven and hell. And so that's something that I'm like, you know.
I'm a lot better with it now, but I think for a long time I was afraid because I don't want to go to hell when I die. And now I don't believe in heaven or hell. I don't know what happens after you die, but I know it's probably not heaven or hell. It just doesn't make any sense to me that that's what it would be. But I think having just this really sacred space that creates this ritual.
Nikki The Death Doula (39:42.949)
Sure. Sure.
Nikki The Death Doula (39:52.943)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:05.143)
Right? Like, otherwise it's like, it's like what you were saying earlier, Nikki, it's like death is something that happens over there. Right? We don't see it. We're detached from it. Whereas, you know, with birth, like there is a ritualistic aspect to it. Right? There's baby showers. There's, you know, people who will do meal trains, right? Family who will come visit and maybe stay over and help. Right? Like these are these rituals that we engage in at the start of life.
Nikki The Death Doula (40:13.711)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:33.197)
But then when it comes to the end of someone's right, right. We're not having death showers. It's just this really just kind of almost like taboo thing to talk about. along those same lines, I think, or I wanted to ask you, when you're working with people, whether through the grieving process or people who are getting ready to die, what's the goal, right? Because if grief is this really ambiguous thing, whether you're the one getting ready to die.
Nikki The Death Doula (40:33.645)
Yeah. I have a death showers. How fun would that be?
Nikki The Death Doula (40:43.087)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:03.006)
or you are grieving someone who has passed on, what's the goal? For someone who is gonna die, the goal is not to delay the death, because it's terminal, it's gonna happen. And then for someone who's grieving, the death has already happened, so you can't undo it. So then how do you measure success, I guess? And that sounds like a really corporatized way to talk about it, but.
Nikki The Death Doula (41:13.411)
Right.
Right.
Nikki The Death Doula (41:27.621)
Yeah.
I know. It's a valid question. Well, and there's two different ways to answer that. So if I'm talking about working with somebody who is dying, my goal for them is I'm never going to say I need you to accept your death. I need you to accept your end of life. But my goal for them is to be as comfortable and as ready as possible. So a lot of times that's working through like unfinished business, regrets. There's a term we use is rug. So it's regret, unfinished business, guilt and shame.
And those are four things a lot of people think about at end of life. I mean, we talk about things I've learned and my feelings around death and dying, but I'm learning like more and more. Like you do not want to sit in your deathbed with 50 regrets, right? So whatever you need to do to not have regrets, but there's always going to be something you regret, right? But the unfinished business or even just helping people with relationships that they never got to have closure on or they never got to mend. I'm not going to say I can
Taina Brown she/hers (41:59.502)
Mm.
Nikki The Death Doula (42:28.805)
call up your long lost sister and mend that relationship, she might not be open to that. But what can I do for you to help you have that sense of peace? And I don't want to say let it go, but at least have a sense of peace and a sense of releasing yourself of that guilt and that shame or any of unfinished business. So that's kind of my goal with people who are dying because I don't want anybody to die bringing something with them like some unfinished business or horrible feeling of guilt or
Taina Brown she/hers (42:45.442)
Mm-hmm
Nikki The Death Doula (42:58.563)
whatever it might be. And with people who are who are grieving a loss, my goal is to help them recognize themselves in that and who they're, you're never the same person after you've had a significant loss. You're going to be a different person to help them find the new person they are and to work with their grief instead of against it. I feel like when people seek me out, they're hoping and assuming I'll give them a fast track to get over it. And that's not how it works.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:24.273)
Hmm
Nikki The Death Doula (43:27.311)
And there are no, like, can't call me up. I'm not going to give you a secret. Like, just do this one thing and you're going to feel so much better because you might not. But to just help you find, find how to work with your grief instead of against it. Because grief is not a bad thing. It's just an expression of our love. So understanding that and recognizing that and finding ways to honor the person or thing or relationship, whatever it is that you've lost and honor your feelings for it too.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:33.37)
Yeah. .
Nikki The Death Doula (43:56.899)
Like that's, that's my goal.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:59.447)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (44:01.358)
I wanted to, I think as we start to get closer to the end here and wrap up, because one of things you talk about is that, oh, what is your tagline on your podcast? Something about it being fun. I don't think that's it, but yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. Where, you know, and you'll try to say it like, I think at the beginning of this, you're kind of like, but don't worry. It doesn't have to be like awful and terrible and heavy this conversation. And a lot of this has been kind of terrible and awful. let's.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:02.733)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (44:07.821)
Okay. you
Nikki The Death Doula (44:12.933)
Grief doesn't have to suck.
Nikki The Death Doula (44:21.743)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (44:26.658)
let's deliver on our promise at the end, that like, doesn't all have to suck and be horrible. So tell me about like, how do you go about that? How do you try to make your work and your work with people not so miserable? Because when I think we often, when we're thinking about grieving, we're thinking death. And since we don't all like have good relationships with that, it's like awful.
Nikki The Death Doula (44:30.213)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (44:45.551)
Sure. Well, I mean, first things first, like I don't necessarily view like when I cry, when I, when I, cause just today I was sitting with a family and they were very emotional and I get them. I will cry right along with my clients and I feel no shame about that. Like I could see the, the, the feelings, right? And I felt that I could feel them a little bit too. And they were very, they were crying. I don't necessarily see that as a
Taina Brown she/hers (45:07.468)
.
Nikki The Death Doula (45:15.389)
I think that's beautiful. think our emotions, whether it's sadness, anger, I see the beauty in that. It's what we do with it. Obviously, anger, you don't want to go around causing other people hurt because you're hurting. But I don't know, I see the beauty in that. But if we want to put that aside for a second, I love helping people find rituals to find their joy again. What can we do to put this feeling that you're not enjoying
Taina Brown she/hers (45:42.019)
Okay. Okay.
Nikki The Death Doula (45:45.178)
to rest for a little while and find some joy. Tell me the good thing. Maybe it's a complex loss. They're lost an abusive parent or spouse and they're feeling all sorts of weird feeling like I'm sad, but this person was awful. I should be happy. Well, let's try to find a balance there. There can be so much joy in our emotions. I don't know where else to go with that, but I get excited about helping people find their joy again.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:14.848)
Yeah, I think that's really important because it's the restorative process that can happen after grief. Thank you for sharing that.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (46:15.384)
I will.
Nikki The Death Doula (46:20.739)
Right. Yeah. Grief is just our expression of love. So when we recognize that we're sad because we love that person, great. What are we joyful about? Like, what do we remember that's... What are the fun things you can do today? Like my brother, his death was a little traumatic, right? But he loved outdoors and nature. He wanted to be a park ranger and never got the opportunity for that. So when I go hiking, I think about him. Like I'm using that...
moment of joy to be with him.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:52.362)
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's okay. That's okay. Yeah. So we are like wrapping up, but you and I are going to be hosting a session on navigating collective grief. So on September 25th, so Thursday night from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern time, it's $49 to register. So I wanted to just have you just talk a little bit about what
Nikki The Death Doula (46:53.861)
Sorry.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (46:56.642)
I love that. Thanks.
Nikki The Death Doula (47:11.055)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:21.055)
that session might look like just to give people an overview of what to expect if they're interested in joining us.
Nikki The Death Doula (47:27.107)
Yeah, absolutely. I would I would love for people to come. I feel like there's a lot going on in the world right now, especially here in the United States. And we are all no matter where you are on that political spectrum, we're all feeling failings. And we are absolutely feeling a collective grief over certain things, right? Different for everybody. So we're going to talk a little bit about what that is, what it means, what collective grief has looked like in history and how we're still seeing that.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:48.405)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (47:56.134)
how we still see echoes of that today and what we can do, what we can do with that instead of just being angry and doom scrolling or leaving nasty comments on social media. What can we do besides that to help work together and use our grief collectively to build each other back up and find hope again and find action.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (48:18.572)
I feel like you're calling me out.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:20.549)
Yeah, calling all of us out. Every time I think about it, I'm like, my god, I'm going to be a mess during that session. I just know it. Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (48:28.271)
Yeah. I mean, we're all guilty of drooling. do it too.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (48:30.601)
And when is it? When is your session that you guys are doing and where do people sign up? I will put in the show notes.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:37.515)
We'll put a link in the show notes. It's Thursday, September 25th from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern. Eastern time, it'll be on Zoom. It's $49 to register. We do have a discount code that we will put in the show notes as well if cost is a financial barrier for you. We would love for you to attend if it's something you're really interested in joining. So yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's part of the...
Kitchen Table Talk series that I started earlier this year to just kind of bring people into community to like navigate the turbulent times, the quote unquote unprecedented times that we're living in. Right? I don't think those existed before the 80s or until, yeah, yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (49:19.087)
Ready for precedent at times again.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (49:24.974)
I think these are the precedent. These are our new precedent at times, sadly. So maybe I'm ready for unprecedented because this is now becoming the precedent. So give me something that's actually different would be nice. Anyway, well, thank you for being here and helping us think about our own mortality and that of the ones we love, but in a way that like, hopefully, like, I don't know, it makes me remember like you're saying.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:30.058)
See ya.
Nikki The Death Doula (49:32.783)
Yeah, I agree.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:37.78)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (49:50.277)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (49:50.488)
the regrets and all that. And just like the things that I want to make sure for me, that unfinished business piece, I don't have a will and I have a kid. So I need to get on that. I know, I know, I know. So now Nikki will be on me about it. But yeah, so hopefully it puts people into some action too. So thank you so much for being here and everybody go to the event you guys are doing. It's going to be awesome.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:55.781)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki The Death Doula (49:57.636)
Taina Brown she/hers (50:04.969)
Yeah.
Nikki The Death Doula (50:05.174)
Yeah, I think.
Yeah, please.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:09.674)
And where else can people connect with you, Nikki, if they're interested in working with you one-on-one?
Nikki The Death Doula (50:14.681)
Yeah, absolutely. Pretty much anything you need for me will be on my website. It's nickythedeathdula.com. There's a link to my podcast there. I have a store with some free resources and then some workbooks for sale as well. There's tons of stuff on there. So I've got all sorts of information and you can reach out to me through that website too.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:33.801)
Well, thank you so much. It was great talking to you today.
Becky Mollenkamp She/they (50:34.658)
Awesome, thank you.
Nikki The Death Doula (50:38.438)
This is fun.