Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This podcast is dedicated to changing the automotive industry for the better, one conversation at a time.
Whether you're a technician, vendor, business owner, or car enthusiast, we hope to inspire you to improve for your customers, your careers, your businesses, and your families.
Peter Leondis 0:00
I mean, I, we so you guys are based in whereabouts are you guys based?
Lucas Underwood 0:06
I'm in North Carolina. So I'm an East Coast us
David Roman 0:09
are familiar with the geography of the United States because you said Sydney, I'm familiar with the city. I have no idea where like on the map it is. It's a big island. It's the size of the US. It's mostly desert. That's all I know. I'm so it's like, oh, we're in over here. It's like, I don't know what that means.
Kosta Ka 0:29
Yeah, we do do. We're on the east coast of the other big island, right? Sort of three quarters down on the east coast. So you are correct. It's quite, quite desserty in the middle. Is that a word? It's a word now.
Kosta Ka 0:47
So most of the population sits on both coasts, realistically? Yeah.
Lucas Underwood 0:54
Very cool. So Oh, yeah. I'm in the mountain. You're in the mountains. Okay. David's in the flatlands.
Peter Leondis 1:00
And you buy surrounded by shop owners as well.
David Roman 1:02
Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Peter Leondis 1:05
Listen, guys, before we get any further in, I just want to make sure we're not all wearing pants, please.
Lucas Underwood 1:10
No, listen, this is my shop too. I'm actually still at work. In here in the US. We don't even wear pants to work. My staff finds it extremely offensive. They have a real problem with but you know, I feel good about
Peter Leondis 1:25
the guests who the guest was not exposed themselves. Do we know that? Recording
Lucas Underwood 1:39
So David will have to cut this whole part out.
Kosta Ka 1:45
Post? Yeah.
David Roman 1:47
After the recording, we'll talk we'll tell the story.
Lucas Underwood 1:50
Yes, I'll tell them a story. You'll watch David turn red. It's awesome. That's good. Well, you're
David Roman 1:55
dealing with
Peter Leondis 1:55
dealing with all these others really no filter here. So
Lucas Underwood 1:59
DP we are Sukkot will fit into perfect.
Kosta Ka 2:02
We are super professional, actually. Intensive question. No, I'm
Peter Leondis 2:05
not wearing pants. Oh, I actually had actually had a couple of questions about you guys actually. Talking far away. We're quite sort of fanboys of, of the ISOGG. Network. Is that? Is that what you'd sort of acronym yourselves? I saw.
Lucas Underwood 2:28
Yeah, yeah, we're the week we've got to a bigger brand now. Right? Where the changing the industry podcast now. And then we're still part of a saga saga 501 C three, designed to help shop owners, right? Like, because, man, it's not always easy. And so we started off as a psych podcast. And we realized that a lot of people weren't going to know what that meant. Right? Like a sigh. What does that mean? Well, it was all shop owners group. And then it slowly grew into something more because we had a lot of technicians who were following us, we had a lot of service advisors who were following us a lot of people from outside of that own realm. And we thought, we've got to make sure they can hear this message too, right? Because we want to improve it for everybody. We want things to get better. And so that's kind of where it started at, you know,
Peter Leondis 3:15
and that sounds that sounds fantastic. Actually, not not too dissimilar to how the garage network started. But I'm, I'm just intrigued because we do see a lot of interaction on on the page there. And it seems to be quite a large following. How long have you guys been going for?
Lucas Underwood 3:33
Gosh, David, when did we start? It was like right at the beginning of the pandemic.
David Roman 3:36
And it wasn't September 2020s When we started the podcast, though Facebook groups on around since what? 18? Yeah,
Peter Leondis 3:44
yeah. Now it seems quite a large following. It's it's good kudos to you. building such a good a good network network of pretty strong technicians, actually. So what seems seems that way from the outside, so it's a bit of feedback for you.
David Roman 4:00
facade.
Lucas Underwood 4:01
Well, thank you so much. But
David Roman 4:02
then over here
Kosta Ka 4:07
everyone's actually dig
Lucas Underwood 4:11
none of them are wearing pants. What's
Kosta Ka 4:18
next name tags of pet in the society or something?
Peter Leondis 4:23
I'm quite certain, I'm quite certain that every, every country is going to have the same issues. And I was I wanted to ask you guys what common threads you guys are seeing with your shop owners in general. Are there any challenges in your industry that you guys face? We're facing a couple of the moment so parts shortages is definitely one of them. skill shortage is another and I just wanted to sort of ask you guys if I mean we sort of feel that we're a little bit far removed being where we are in Australia but you I'm certain that you guys face the same issues that we face. Yeah. Yeah.
Lucas Underwood 5:06
You know me personally, right? Like we went through a number of parts shortages. And I see some posts from you guys and see some posts from other countries where it is hard to get certain parts. Right. And it's extremely difficult to get them imported, if that's what's required. And so I could not imagine that just just for the challenges that we have here locally, and have the dealer networks that we have, it's almost impossible to get some parts and it seems like they're phasing out and newer vehicle parts much sooner than they ever had before. They're
David Roman 5:39
some of your some of the parts shortages, you COVID related or supply chain issue related there.
Kosta Ka 5:47
Yeah, we're getting a lot of the, you know, blame COVID Still, but I think that, on our end, I think we just don't have those relationships with, with manufacturers. So I think like when we talk about parts shortages, personally, I think Pete means like the if we want to try and get something from a dealer as a genuine part, man, it's number one, we have a lot of dealers that actually won't sell to trade anymore. That's a couple of them actually a year. So they've actually made it impossible to combine local, I would say are equivalent to let's say, GM. I, as a repair shop cannot go and buy from their store as in five trucks on order repairs, like I know you can't buy from him. Okay, well, then just put it as a regular walk in, put it form as a walk in as I need the part, I'm not going to drive an hour to go. And we can't wait all day for this part, right? Man, it's more No, because we know you've got to try to count. So you're gonna have to go through at headquarters. Don't give me my 3% discount, because they give us 3% trade group. Don't give me the 3% always come in as Kosta. And just now we know you got to try to count you have to go through headquarters, which is a mission an hour
Lucas Underwood 7:01
on the phone? Like what's the logic behind that?
Peter Leondis 7:04
No, think a lot of my understanding of it is the is this just the sheer shortage of of bums in chairs. So we're finding it very hard to get staff in general. So unemployment rate for us is actually very, very low here at the moment. So we're finding it very hard to get staff and I think that it's probably best for the dealers to hold on to their supply and use it for their own reason here rather than supply to the trade. So yeah, so the fact that
David Roman 7:36
whenever we have something really similar here with the with specific manufacturers, so you'll look at a Tesla, but they're getting in trouble right now, because Tesla's not sharing freely sharing of information like they're supposed to. And if you will need to buy something from Tesla, you have to register with them as a collision shop, I think is what it was. And you have to go through all these jumped through all these hoops, just to be able to buy genuine Tesla parts because they were trying to keep everything in house, everything. Every other manufacturer realizes that we don't have the dealer network, to service all these vehicles, which is why these are the same manufacturers in your country that's like you guys, it's not like you don't have GM and you don't have Ford, you see what I'm saying. So you guys have the same manufacturers who realize in the US, we need the independent repair shop, because we want to sell cars, that's what we're in business to do. So we're not going to sell cars, if there's nobody to fix them, and we don't have the dealer network that's wide enough. And well as well staffed as it should be, to be able to handle all the repairs necessary. So we have to get we have to, like there's a little bit of give and take there with the independent repair shops, what they need, that they need us
Lucas Underwood 8:56
that there's 70% of the repairs, actually, I think it's 72 right now 72% Of all repairs to automobiles, nationwide are done in independent repair facilities here. Right. Interesting. And so, right and and, you know, we've got organizations, there's eti, the equipment tool Institute, right, and they build connections between the manufacturers, the tool companies, and independent repair shops, or the aftermarket, as you know it, right. And so they're up there saying like, hey, we have to maintain these connections, we have to make sure that you're taking care of them and they're taking care of you and so that's that's something we've seen more and more and I you know, there's a lot of folks I think if If mario for instance heard this Mario now we're just having a conversation the other day and he's like, I don't think the dealers are trying as hard as you think they are to help us man I could not imagine being in a situation like you guys are that's crazy. We feel
Peter Leondis 9:51
we're not doing as much as what they should be.
Kosta Ka 9:55
You gotta remember for us like these horror right to repair and Information X and all the stuff that we only just got that legislated under a year ago. So pre, pre, eight months ago, we could not log in and get a wiring diagram from a manufacturer, that we actually couldn't access any information at all full stop. There wasn't there was maybe two participating brands, which was to Yoda, and Holden, which is like a type of short of that we were absolutely stuck by going, you know, circumventing using VPN is going through international logins and all these wacky stuff, especially when we're programming, it was impossible, because then you're relying on their back backdoor from Russia.
Kosta Ka 10:42
Information like
Kosta Ka 10:43
it was, it was pretty crazy. So. So I think the lot of these changes I have felt from from my business point of view is, since we've gotten that legislation passed, and now we legally can get access to the information. It's like, they said, Well, okay, fine, since you can legally get the information, we'll find other hurdles for you. You know, that's what I thought that recently.
David Roman 11:04
There. I think the the that I think that's well established enough in the US that if a manufacturer tries some of those shenanigans, not not that they're, I think they're trying to secure certain aspects of access, not necessarily create barriers, but definitely secure. Who is getting access to what? Yeah, what's that? What's that thing called? Lucas? I don't know what this about this stuff. There's just they told me to pay the bill and the $50 for this and $50. And you just you just pay well, Ottawa or something like that, that you have to register
Kosta Ka 11:43
we have ever seen.
David Roman 11:45
Right? Yeah,
Lucas Underwood 11:46
yeah. And, you know, now you got NASA too. But But I think NASA is is more of a in favor of the independence than anything. It's, it's, it's making sure that access can't be taken away. Because what they're doing is, is they're saying, hey, like, you can make every argument you want. But we know these people have had background checks. We know they're an actual business, we know that they have insurance, they were bonded under them to protect you, the manufacturer, to make sure that they are doing what they're supposed to be doing. And so you guys get in a pretty complex system.
Kosta Ka 12:23
So this is why it's so
Kosta Ka 12:24
nasty if I believe it might actually be the same company, or at least, they copied a little bit. They're the platform, we've got a organization called Ezra, which is a similar thing. And they've just started adopting the same like you were saying, Lucas, you know, they do all the background check, you log in, you have that account as your account. And then you can become a VSP so like a security person, vehicle security person, which is more background checks, you do police checks, and all that sort of jazz. Now, that's only hasn't been rolled out yet. So, you know, back pre us getting the legislation, most workshops had just had like, a personal relationship with a person inside of a dealership. And if they needed a security,
Kosta Ka 13:09
we want you to use those security code. Yeah, here's a couple cases
Kosta Ka 13:13
of beer and we'll take that security code. Since the legislation is passed, it's been well known. We can't do that anymore, because now it's super strict. So you need to go through VSP. Right. Problem is VSP wasn't ready. It's still not ready. So right now, there's still people doing it. Ways that a long social cause of the fix, so we find ways to do it. Right?
Kosta Ka 13:36
You got to get the car door and you work it out. Is that the right answer? That's the right answer. Yeah. So you get the car out the door. And it gets fixed and
Kosta Ka 13:43
it gets sorted. But it's just makes it a little bit more difficult. But
Kosta Ka 13:47
there is
Kosta Ka 13:49
the word in the traps are that that's where to go and it's going to be much easier once it's all adopted. But I think it's also a learning curve like we had the most recent one was was our you guys can't have access to information because you none of you guys are EMV certified. And we can't wake up we can't separate our evening information from our regular information. So because we don't want you guys to die. We can't give it to you. So yeah, so we
Lucas Underwood 14:21
headed since
David Roman 14:22
you're in the situation here where you you don't you can't get vehicle information, or you're having to get it like secondhand sketchy through. trainees are Russian access. So you've got that going on. You can't get parts because nobody will look at least parts to you. So that that should dissuade every backyard mechanic from working on a car. So I don't have the relationships to get the parts and I can't get the vehicle and service information. So why am I even going to try meaning that the people that have shops should be charging astronomical rates to work on vehicles because you can work on them? Is that the case you will
Peter Leondis 14:59
work Hang on, it
Kosta Ka 15:00
will work. Yeah, we are working on. You know what that is going to be the slogan, Pete, I think I'm going to just cut that section out. And literally gonna have a raven in the right way. And we're just rerun where you are. So the thing is, we still have a pretty good access to like aftermarket
Kosta Ka 15:14
parts. And you know, a lot of these aftermarket parts are from big players like all of our electrical stuff, or those aftermarket knives. And if it's Bosch, you know, so you can sort of trust that it's going to be a decent brand, a decent product going into the car, so always is 90% of time that there's another solutions, which again, like I said earlier, it's always about getting their car fixed in a timely matter. Like, I'll give you a straight up example. We had a MF 63 A few weeks back, where do you lose quoting anywhere from four to 18 weeks for for a shock absorber? Like, Well, okay, but they're available. Yeah, they are. Okay, what, 18 weeks? I don't understand. But they these things give you a real accurate answer. That's, that's the problem. So then how do you? How do you then convey that message to a customer without sounding like a dick as well? Like, I'm a promise you want the car at the door? I can't store your car for weeks, you know?
Peter Leondis 16:09
Yeah. But we do have we do have access to data via conventional methods? I mean, you guys have companies like auto data? And those sorts of Yeah, I suppose. We do have conventional natural. Yeah, so Mitchell yet very similar. So we do have access to data. It's just specific data that you might require from the dealer, that we're finding it very hard, and it's a slow burn for for us at the moment, because it's only really quite new, that it's that it's rolled out. But in regards to what you were saying with, with our charge out rates, and should we be charging more? The The answer is probably, yes, we should. And we are working towards that, I think as an industry as a whole, to try to uplift capability. And that's, that's probably partly why or mostly why the garage network actually exists is to try to bring these these texts together and uplift capability together, united, and try to stamp out a little bit of the, you know, $99 service come in the door, you guys have actually got it even worse, you've got you've got what I've, from what I've noticed, you guys got players that are offering $28 $29 services and shit like that, what is that? What?
David Roman 17:23
Well, here in the Free States of America, anybody with a wrench can become a mechanic and, and open up a shop, they literally just throw a post on Facebook and say, Hey, we're gonna start now. And then that's it. They're now now you as a shop with a with a building and insurance and good wages for your employees and the latest equipment and on and on and on, you've got all this overhead. So you're charging whatever you need to charge plus, you're marking up the parts and you're trying to present value, the guy down the street is installing that same part that you charge $1,000 For us, and they're doing it for half. And the customer. That's this is the entire crux of the matter, the customer in their minds, it's the same thing. It's like, well, hold on. Now, that is not the same thing, that person don't have service information I do. So they don't know that those two bolts that they're hold that's holding up the gas tank are not reusable. I've got service information I know. So part of my quote was replacement for those two bolts, so the straps don't fall out. And the tank doesn't come off the car and everybody dies. They don't know that. They just slap that sucker in. You're going down the road. Now the problem is like half the time nothing happens. The other the other half. something does happen. But that guy is now gone. Because he was just a Facebook post. That was the business. Yeah.
Peter Leondis 18:48
Yeah. See? So. So what how are you guys? Or is there a way that you guys are moving toward educating these customers that it's not apples for apples that they're comparing?
David Roman 18:59
Now one customer at a time? They can forever? Yeah, 300.
Lucas Underwood 19:06
Right. And every single day, it's having that conversation. And unfortunately, what they want to hear often wins, right? Let's be real about it, is that that client coming through the door that says, hey, I really don't have the money for this. I really, you know, and what sucks is, is they'll go buy that 70 inch TV. And it doesn't even it doesn't even register a question in their mind. They'll go buy that sucker and stick it up on the wall. They won't even ask, they won't look at the price somewhere else. They'll stick that sucker on the wall. And that's the TV of God. Right? And I asked the people all the time, like, you know, would you go out and would you buy the cheapest 13 inch gray or like grayscale TV, black and white? And it's just got antennas and it doesn't have cable on the back? Would you? Would you buy that and they're like, No, I want a nice high quality TV. I'm like, why would you want to go to the equivalent of a repair shop that provides that? Well I just pull my car fixed and he's cheap. Dude, I don't think you understand what I'm saying you're getting what you're paying for. There's a huge difference. And you know, I don't know, I mean, I'm starting to wonder if consumers even care.
Peter Leondis 20:11
Conversely, though, I'm imagining you guys have customers on the other end of the scale, which say, hey, Lucas, Hey, David, just fix the car. You know, just absolutely. So we've we've got up so we've got either into the scale as well. And over the years, we've built in quite a strong client base that just dropped the car off dropped the keys, Pete do what it needs, send me the bill. Obviously, we just don't do what it needs, because they need to know. So we do contact them through the course of the job. There are multiple touch points that we we speak to them at. But typically, it's never an issue. It's only I suppose, maybe the small one to 2% of clients that might come through who might be price sensitive, or might not want that, that high paying job that you're offering? And they're probably not the ones that we want anyway?
Lucas Underwood 20:59
Well, you know, what I've learned in my shop is is that, that when I had the low rates, those were the guys coming through, right. And as I've raised my prices, and my prices came in line with the rest of the industry, most of those people that were just absolutely flat, come in anymore industry now, right.
David Roman 21:22
You know, the ratchet wrench survey, do you guys get ratchet and wrench down there? No, what's that? So it's a magazine. For the industry, they do a survey every year, and they get 1000s of respondents, shop owners, technicians, and they'll put out information like what's the average repair order for the industry? You know, over 4000 people respond? And this is what it is. And it's, it's under $300? of seven bucks. Yeah. It's really low. And you're, like, operate on $300 Aaro. And, but they are no, that's the average. That's the problem. That's the interesting, half of everybody's running lower.
Peter Leondis 22:06
Yeah, wow. You guys have got some really, really good metrics that I've noticed a lot of people are putting up on the, on the posts and all the acronyms and slowly starting to get onto what they all mean, and what what they are what you guys track. And it's typically what we track as well. But like your ARL was the fucking day talking about, you know, repair order, you know, and there's a few others on there. And one thing that sort of got me because we actually don't don't operate in this way is is the way you pay your staff, and you can pay them in two ways you can either pay them on a flat rate is that a flat rate, or
David Roman 22:49
entire country that doesn't deal with flat rate, if you guys don't do
Peter Leondis 22:53
so. So when you say flat rate, what's flat rate is I pay you your hourly rate, and that's that. So
David Roman 23:03
So, yeah, so it'll if the if the job, if you pull up a service information and says that job is three hours, then you pay that technician three hours of whatever negotiated pay rate, and so if it's $25 an hour, you're gonna pay them for those three hours, you're gonna pay them $75, that's it, if a takes them six hours to do the job, you're paying them $75 If it takes them an hour to do the job, you're paying them $75 Now the way that the shops start to make really good money is when every single job is to is being built out at three hours, but it's taking the technician two, because the technician just got really good at doing these jobs, these three hour jobs in two hours. So now they're getting paid for three hours worth of work at 75 bucks. The shop is collecting three hours worth of pay, but the cars are coming in and out very quickly because they're able to pack in more cars in the same amount of time. That's how is that
Peter Leondis 24:03
is that a double edged sword to a certain degree for maybe the so the shop owner seems to win irrespective but the technician could potentially fall short if he gets a couple of curly ones or
David Roman 24:18
the difficulty comes in when the when the where the shop owner can lose is if they they lose in quality because the technician wants to beat their time. And in order to do that, sorry to cut corners because they want to get in under that three hour mark. And so they'll do whatever. Now the some shop owners they don't care they the car comes in as a run. Yeah, chickens lights off. Yup. Okay, great. They charge the customer and out the door. They go. Don't Ask Don't Tell. And it's not till the car comes back, which is usually after the technicians quit. Then the car comes back. And all of a sudden you got a line of cars that take Listen, Timmy worked on and technician Timmy got fired two weeks ago. Now you realize that the technician thinks he hasn't been installing parts properly. Like he should have because he's been cutting time to in order to hit that flat rate. That's what the shop owner can lose. But yeah, the technician ends up taking the brunt of it. And here's here's the other thing that our biggest problem with it is that it the those kind that pay scale works really well, when it's straight r&r. You're talking ball joints, steering and suspension brakes, some gas at some is very, very routine, very routine stuff. And it pays really well if they're if the technician is working on the same line. So all they work on is Holden. So that's it. And they just this one make of Holden they get really fast that diagnose in the car and fixing. So in those particular situations, it works really well for an independent repair shop that works on everything. It's just doing brake steering suspension, very light diagnostics, very light diagnostic, but swapping in parts all day long. That's what it incentivizes. So that's what shops turn into. So a shop that deals in diagnostic work. That is doing a das calibrations that doing programming, that's that's re refreshing refurbishing modules that would normally have to be thrown away, they're going in and they're doing e prom work to to use the module again, shops like that don't aren't turning the cars quickly. And in those shops, they're more craftsmen than they are just factory workers. And that's the comparison I typically tend to make. It's once a factory worker, one is not the factory worker shops are they're fine, but they pay a flat rate and they specialize in certain kind of work. That makes sense.
Peter Leondis 26:56
So the other way that they pay these, so what's the other one that did it you got a flat rate? And then you got an income pay
David Roman 27:02
hourly? Or like we per salary? So salary is set, set yearly fee, and we pay them by the year, every single week?
Peter Leondis 27:12
Doesn't it? You know?
Lucas Underwood 27:14
Oh, yeah. Well, and here's the thing, and this is gonna piss a lot of people off. But the reality is, is flat rate is an excuse for poor management. Right? And a lot of ways flat rate is it can be kidding, the business. Autopilot
David Roman 27:27
can't be right. Yes, correct.
Lucas Underwood 27:32
Not all of this simply puts the business management on plant on autopilot, right, in a lot of ways. It's, hey, you know, if you don't turn, we're at least not losing something on you, in a major way right now. And so, you know, here's the thing is, is think about that were people first, right, and especially in independent shops, I think most of the independent shops are thinking people first. And so, you know, dude has a hard time at home. He has he has a family member that passes away what's gonna happen to his hours? They're gonna go down. Yeah, right. Like it's not it's not taking care of the person. First. It's it's primarily focused on
Peter Leondis 28:11
dollar bills, you building a pretty building a pretty average team culture with your with your team, if you're going to run a shop like that,
David Roman 28:20
you'd be surprised there are technicians that that's what they prefer. Because they make a lot of money, say I'm really good at putting in suspension parts and gaskets and just cycling through cars very quickly. That's what I'm really good at. I don't want to get paid salary because it's going to limit how much money I can make. Because I can turn these hours quickly. And those technicians end up at flat rate shops and flat rate shops, they can have a great culture and everybody's happy and they're doing cookouts and they're going on retreats and they're doing the whole rumor of it. It works just fine for them. I for our for us. It's not it's a pace that we can't keep up. It's just it seems too stressful. I don't like to do that much work. I don't want to do all that nonsense. Can you guys not have flat rate or anything like it down there?
Kosta Ka 29:12
I only ever heard of it. We did a thing with with
Kosta Ka 29:15
Sean tipping a little while back. And he was just talking about like what I mean, I've never heard of that before he explained it. I think I instantly got stressed out I just thought
Kosta Ka 29:24
of all in my head. I'm like, But what about quality control? But then what if what if the techs work in and someone who needs a hand and I didn't get how do they juggle? You know, they stopped the job to help their fellow person hold this while I do this. Like how do you juggle at
David Roman 29:40
times? Sometimes Sometimes sometimes.
Peter Leondis 29:43
We do. We do have. We do have independent guys who might be mobile that will contract to you. But that's very similar scenario where you get caught out so who wants the job if that's the case and then trying to get him Back to Warren, the job might be an issue as well, because he's got his own work. And, you know, he sort of falls by the wayside. But yeah, look, I think I think it's a bit yeah. I'd never heard of it. Before. I wanted to clarify, I think I think salary or hourly is probably a little bit more fair for the for both parties, you know, just sounds like a Greek a better way to run your shop. What do you absolutely,
David Roman 30:23
always salary?
Peter Leondis 30:27
Well, all of my staff are on salary package. And, and they're all They're all paid quite well, despite the fact that a lot of people sort of say that mechanics have paid poorly in our industry. None of mine are.
David Roman 30:43
Like, Lucas was throwing out some numbers out there, Lucas, weren't you? Weren't you pulling up the fact that, hey, this is the poverty rate in the US is this dollar amount? Yeah, technicians, like on average, meet this dollar amount, like you guys aren't even anywhere near quote unquote, underpaid, just but from averages. Right? And certainly not anybody knows stores.
Lucas Underwood 31:07
Right? And I think a lot of it comes back to to, they feel like, well, I've got to buy these tools. Right. And I have to, you know, I'm putting all of this training, I'm putting all of this effort in, you know, there are definitely techs that are are underpaid, there's zero doubt about that. But I think that in the States, it's probably lower of an average that are underpaid than we think there is. Right? And when, especially when you take into account that we've got some guys coming in, right, we've got some guys starting out, you know, I've got some apprentices in here, and they're, they're, you know, $18 an hour 1718 1920. Right, just starting out. And, and that's listen, if you can go into a shop, and you can get with with no tools with no nothing. And you can start at 17 to $18 an hour, and the shops gonna buy your tools, and they're gonna give you vision and dental benefits and all the training you could ever want put you through an apprenticeship program with a guaranteed wage scale. Right, like $17 an hour is not that bad starting out? Well, I think, you know, I just I think that sometimes we we sway our perspective of that, because people want more money. That begs
Peter Leondis 32:10
the question, then if you're being underpaid, why are you being underpaid? And maybe the onus needs to go on, on the technician to say, well, you know, maybe I'm not as good or maybe I need to be trained better, or maybe I need to produce more output. Or, you know, there could be a reason as to as to why, you know, a lot of the guys that seem to complain that we we've seen, don't do anything about fixing it for themselves. Yeah, you know, it's the victim victim mentality. You know,
Lucas Underwood 32:40
you're exactly right. And, you know, I've got a good friend, and I've talked to him a little bit about the fact that I may have mentioned this on some of the podcasts, right? But but we had a talk a while back, and he came to me, and he said, Hey, listen, I was fired. And I said, Okay, why were you fired? And he said, I don't know. And I said, Well, the first thing you need to do is you need to do an exit interview, can you call him and say, Hey, we need to do an exit interview. And we started talking about and we were talking through some of the things and I asked very blunt, very direct questions. And and I said, you know, I gotta be honest with you, you've heard us talk a lot about toxic technicians, and how they can affect the business, they can affect everybody else in there. I said, Can you be honest with yourself and be honest with me? Do you think maybe it's possible, you'd become toxic in the shop? And he said, I never thought that would be me. But you're right. And then we start talking about some of the other things that happen. And as we dig in, it turns out that neither party had their expectations met. Now, look, I'm going to wholly 100% Blame the shop owner for this, because the shop owner didn't set expectations. He didn't say I want you to be able to accomplish this, I want you to do this in this number of hours, right? You know, I want you to do this kind of work and this kind of training. And here's how I envision this going right? He didn't say anything, he didn't do anything. He just said come in and fix cars. Yeah. And so now what does the technician do? The technician starts and he's like, Well, I thought I was fixing cars. And he's pulling the scope out. And he's doing testing, and he's doing all this stuff. And the the owner never came back and said, Hey, listen, the time it's taking you to scope and do all this stuff, you could have easily looked and seen that's a problem right there and fix this car and shipped it out. And so all of a sudden we get into this greater and greater divide, they're going in different directions, because they both have different expectations of what fixing the car is of what I should expect at the end of the week. Well, I should expect at the end of the day what my production should look like. Right? And so is it more that we need to work on setting these expectations with one another?
Peter Leondis 34:41
Yeah, look, I definitely think that's an absolutely important thing. Making sure you sit and manage these expectations through the in very similar way to how you would set and manage expectations for a customer when they bring their vehicle in. If they've got a diagnostic job that you need to do you need to definitely I think so. and manage expectations with your staff as well, it needs to be clear cut from the outset. Because they'll do. So from my experience, they will do what they feel is the right thing to do. But it might not necessarily be what they're like them to do, you know, so they're not doing anything wrong. It's just not to your expectation. And if you haven't said anything, or set that expectation, it's very difficult. And like, you're right there, yes, the divide becomes big, because they're thinking they're doing the correct thing, or what they feel is the right thing, but it might not necessarily be the expectation that the actual shop owner has. And I think, you know,
Lucas Underwood 35:36
go for it. Well, you know, it resonates with me, right, because I don't mind to tell personal stories, right. I tell them all the time. But a few years back, we had just had our second child. And I had it in my head that my wife was going to come back to work, she does the bookkeeping, she does all of that stuff, right. And I had it in my head, she was going to come back. And I had this vision in my head of what it was going to look like and, and the thing she was going to take care of the things I was going to take care of. And man, we had some, like, fights over this, like she was getting ready to, like I was about to not exist anymore. She's gonna take me out, you know, it's gonna wake up dead one day. And so, you know, as this progresses, I said to my business coach at the time, I said, I am really frustrated, because she's not doing what I want her to do. And he kind of laughed at me. And he's like hay. He said, you know, frustration always comes from unmet expectations. But he said, I'm going to warn you about something. And I said, What's that? He said, You need to talk to her about what your expectations are. But he said, I'm gonna give you a piece of advice that is absolutely pivotal. He said, You need to write it down on a sheet of paper and read it a few times before you go. Right? And I said, Well, what do you mean, he said, they may not be realistic. He's like, you may be asking her to do something that she's not capable of, or it may not be realistic for her to do, it may not be the right thing. So write them down and read them first. All right, I'm down. I've got like this whole notepad, top to bottom line by line by line. I'm like, Oh, shit, that's not realistic. Oh, shit. That's not realistic, either. Oh, hell, I better not ask her to do that. I mean, and like so at the end of it. I think that if we don't write it down and put that on paper first, we may not realize that our expectations are unrealistic, you know. And I think it's especially for technicians, right? I come to work in the morning. And one of my things is, is I plan my day out, right? And as the expediter in the shop, I'm laying all this work out and I'm saying, okay, Mrs. Smith needs to go. Bob needs to go, this client needs to go, we've promised this, we've promised that we've promised all this work, right? And I'm laying it out, and I'm putting it down on the sheet. I'm like, Okay, I need you to get all this done. And I never look at the hours that it takes to actually do that. Right. And so all of a sudden, when I take it in, I lay it out and I'm like, okay, Terry needs to do this job, this job in this job. That's 16 hours. Right? If everything goes well, that's 16 hours. Is it possible for him to do that? And I think owners, they're so focused on serving the client, they're so focused on getting the dollars in the door because they gotta pay the bills they can lose sight of, of what reality is. Does that make sense?
Kosta Ka 38:27
Absolutely. I think we've all fallen in that trap of, then then they're getting frustrated because the job is out the door. But then you actually look at the guy. Wait a minute, that's actually not even possible over three days. A little less than one. So ABS Yeah,
Lucas Underwood 38:41
exactly.
Peter Leondis 38:42
Yeah, yeah, putting a little bit of excess pressure on the on the tech because I do understand what you mean, you sort of walk out from the office, potentially, and look and go, John, Hey, gang with that. I'll make a look I'm getting stuck in is that finished yet? No, it's a very long job. You know, and like you said as as a as a shop owner, you sort of you want the outcome for the customer. Sometimes you feel that sometimes you fail to realize that you've got Tech's on board as well that are part and parcel of your team. You know, the
Kosta Ka 39:13
problem paid though in their situation, you start to sound like because both paid and my dad were both mechanics as well. We're both texts, and we've formed the chapel when I was doing this would have been three hours. Yeah, yeah. In the 1976 on your beauty distributor took your one hour yeah, great dad. You know,
Peter Leondis 39:38
I used to hear these ones like, oh, man, I used to pull those gearboxes out with my deck lug gearboxes now four times the weight, you know, you still do?
Lucas Underwood 39:50
Well, you know, we've got to where we make a joke in the shop, right? And Eric gets the brunt of all the jokes but you know, the deal is is that I'll walk in and he'll like you've just bought a car And the first thing I always say to Eric, because are you taking so long, right? And I'm just serious as can be. And he just like, looks at me. So like, I go to everybody and do that. Just to point out that like, Hey, I recognize I'm really bad to do this. You know,
Peter Leondis 40:14
are you are you on the workshop floor to a degree? Lucas? Oh, and David, for that matter? I know, David, you said you don't like really working and none of us do. So.
Lucas Underwood 40:24
Listen, listen, you know what David does all? Listen, I never could understand what it was David actually did in his shop. And one of his service advisors one time she came over, and she's like, Hey, you keep asking about like, why all this is going on in our shop and why nothing's getting done. And she says, here look, and she turns this phone around. And it's a video of David sitting there watching YouTube cackling laughing and she's like, videotaping it for like five minutes. And he's like, what, what are you doing?
Kosta Ka 40:55
It's race research. Okay,
Peter Leondis 40:57
research. Exactly. Right.
Lucas Underwood 40:58
Yeah. If you knew what the video was, you would wonder what he's researching it. But
Peter Leondis 41:04
yeah. It's a cluster. And if
David Roman 41:11
we want to, I know exactly what we just rewatched it on my screen.
Lucas Underwood 41:23
I will find the video for you of him watching it and laughing that will just, you know, I work in the shop a little bit, not nearly as much as I used to. And, and the real reason is, is because, man, I got to be honest, like, there came a day in a time when I had to say, I need to hire people better than me. I need to find people that are more capable than me. And so if I get in their way, that's all on being is in their way. There are certain jobs that I'm really good at that I've spent a lot of years learning how to do. And there are times that if they get into a bind on a diagnostic situation, I will step in and say, Hey, let me be the 30,000 foot view and give you a different perspective. Let me ask you some questions. Really, my role in the shop is that of the expediter. I'm planning the morning out, everything's laid out on a schedule, I'm making a list. We're making a list of who we need to call who's working on what we're organizing the keys, we're making sure the estimates are built, we're and now I'm walking through the shop every hour, hey, do you need anything? Do you need parts is everything going good is something wrong? And I'm following up with that and driving the work to the shop in that way. Because a lot of shops, man, they want to be productive. But the owner is in here meddling. And you know, we've heard them called Seagull managers, right, they come in and eat your lunch and shit everywhere and fly off. And so I don't want to be that. But I also want to make sure they're supported and a lot of shops, man, they don't have the parts they need. They don't have the clarification or the information they need. Until that car has been on the rack for 45 minutes an hour. And they forgot to go in until the adviser something or the advisor has been busy and they haven't been able to say something my position of running around and solving those small problems means work most of the shop much faster.
Peter Leondis 43:12
Do you call that position workshop controller?
Lucas Underwood 43:16
I call it an expediter. It was David's idea to name it that so that's just what I always called it. In Shopware. There's a there's a tab called an expediter. So that's why I came up with it. But I mean, yeah, I guess that's what it is.
Peter Leondis 43:29
Yeah. So we I mean, so what I've noticed between there's a bit of a disconnect between the way you guys do things and the way we do things. When I say disconnect, I think you guys are a little bit more structured, or from what I see there's a bit more of a structure in terms of your whole chart that you would have typically in a workplace, compared to a lot of a lot of hours. And you might have the owner who is also an operator. So you got an owner operator, like you said, and you might have four techs underneath him, and he's literally doing everything. You know, he's answering the phones doing the bookings, he's ordering the parts. He's asking the techs how they're going, he's also doing work. So So we've sort of structured things a little bit differently, typically, in the way that you guys would say you'd have a service advisor, and then you'd have what you're doing which I would consider a workshop controller and then you got your Tech's. So you're the you're the facilitator, I suppose you'd say wouldn't you the expert guide or the facilitator?
Lucas Underwood 44:27
And so what role do you take in the show? I listen, I've not been in a couple of months. I don't know.
Peter Leondis 44:36
I actually don't know what I do these days. Very similar today, but I'm more a YouTube guy these days all day not entirely true. I I have assumed the role. We are a little bit short staffed at the moment. So I have assumed the role of the workshop controller at one of the workshops. But when we had enough staff on I was a I was overseeing both operations I wasn't very hands on. At all I was I was more making sure that, you know, we had nearly so we had 10 staff at the time across both shops. And I was making sure that, you know, all the backend was being taken care of and I was overseeing and making sure I was providing support to the guys running the shops. But now I'm sort of back into the workshop controller role. So like the expediter, I suppose you'd say. One of the workshops, the other shop, just run standalone, they've got a full team. We're just a little bit short staffed at one of the shops.
Lucas Underwood 45:38
And how big are your shops? Let me ask you that.
Peter Leondis 45:40
So I've got so both shops are very similar in size. They both got four hoists or four racks, as you might say. One of the workshops the one in the inner west or the inner city has no parking so it's all street parking and it's very very difficult it's very difficult to get so
Kosta Ka 46:01
you'll feel fine there's a common trait in Australia we don't we don't have parking a lot of these
Peter Leondis 46:06
there's not much space so despite the fact that the country is five times the size of the US only one 1/10 is used you know so because the rest is unusable you can die beginning by snake or you know what you got to watch out for is the drop bears as well. The drop is koalas they're like wild bears with massive claws and they hand from the trees and they know that's completely
David Roman 46:40
weird and I don't know what
Lucas Underwood 46:45
listen David has almost been killed by a mosquito and a horse
Peter Leondis 46:50
drop I said to a sent to a traveler once that they were asking me about the airport or whatever is yes and yeah, did you see the kangaroos? And they said no. I said no, there's there's guys you probably didn't see them because there's guys that employee called shores and they show away all the kangaroos with a broom off the runway. You know so
Kosta Ka 47:19
that was like Do you have a recording of that? Is it on YouTube?
Lucas Underwood 47:24
I know he will listen He just told me that the doctor told him he needed at least 30 minutes of cardio when we die so there's this Guardian
Peter Leondis 47:33
so one of the shops one of the shops has four bays or four racks one bay and a reception and then we're looking for on street parking all the time. The other shop is lucky enough that it's got got a car park attached to it which has six cars that we can park and then there's also separate reception for racks or for hoists and similar separate lunch room and we built a mezzanine with with the officer I'm sitting in at the moment so both relatively well well laid out just one of them is difficult to use purely because of the the infrastructure the parking scenario which we have with each other so as the crow flies you'd probably say it's about 13 kilometers but driving from one end of Sydney to the other oh my god so if I was to drive from one shot to the other it would take
Kosta Ka 48:31
me an hour an hour so in my workshops literally in between both the shops literally run middle right it's probably exactly the middle Yeah. But then will still take me 45 minutes to drive down to these sets
Lucas Underwood 48:44
now Do you own a shop too? Are you a J on
Kosta Ka 48:46
a worship revolt? I owned I showed a shopper I would
David Roman 48:51
have known that. I was
Lucas Underwood 48:54
I want to dig into his story now I'm curious so I want to make sure he wasn't a shoe or David
Kosta Ka 48:59
I wasn't sure in my past life yeah, that's right I got really good at it and got rid of him more so now has a fun new job.
Kosta Ka 49:09
So I had a workshop in Moscow which is the Lancers I've masked mascot airport is is like Sydney Airport, which is about three to five K's out of the heart of the city. We're actually sold out because in that area, a lot of redevelopment and everything's in our sky rise apartment blocks so we got bought out of that about two years ago and in the interim, we found this little workshop in corporations and literally in between pastry shops where AKA a commons out of the CBD and then we've got we've got Jack sheet parking we got nothing we got literally we got to voice infrastructure is pretty shit. But we are working on a bigger solution right now but it's not to voice voice. Yet. We've got two car spots. Straight pocket walk around us is an hour, an hour maximum parking that's that's got a very, very proactive Ranger that walks around and finds all the cars if you leave them outside for too long. It's we will
David Roman 50:13
be very, very shocked on.
Kosta Ka 50:16
Yeah, well, we were we were before in Moscow Parkins was a problem and but we had a pretty good range of that, you know, he came, we used our lunch room and our coffee room, and he'd come and hang out watch movies all day in our office. So as long as he got a job card on the window, awkward, he wouldn't put anything on, this person is not the same type of person. So we have to be super strict with our workflow, we have to be super strict with their bipod and ally. It's not a booking, well, when would you like to book it? And we're not sure i instilled in them to follow workshops. Like if we're, if we're, you know, getting absolutely smashed, and these guys need a solution. The customer needs a solution ASAP. This is where I think our net worth guide works really well where I've got zero problem saying, hey, look, we can't give you a solution. For the next week or two. We just can't do it. But you know, Jimmy down the road can no pizza this way he can as well. Here's some solutions for you guys reach out, see if they've got availability. I'm absolutely not adverse to that. And I found customers always come back because you've given them the solution that I could have worked it out for you guys. And I mean, if you could take it, we would just pretty limited
David Roman 51:30
here in the US that that would not fly. And the only the only reason you would do that is because they're working on something you don't want to touch. So So you know, if they bring me some, like really old Mercedes, I'm not touching that. And so I'm sending it to the guy down the street who's willing to work on it. But that's the only reason why if I work on it, I'm taking it, that's mine. And, and they will they like even if I did send them, somebody, they're going to keep that customer so they're going to work actively, like, hey, come back here, come back here. Don't go back to over there. You've already sent it to us. We know what we're doing. They're there. They don't We don't work too nicely.
Lucas Underwood 52:15
You know, and I tried to locally here I tried to send stuff to other shops. Right? And and you know, it can be hard, right? Because some of the shops aren't, aren't quality enough to be able to do that and trust that your clients are getting a good product. The shops that I do send people to I think we have a decent working relationship with most of them. But you know, David's right? I mean, I have I haven't heard horror stories of somebody trying to be kind and send somebody over like, Hey, we're too busy. Can you take this? And then the next thing you know, they're talking trash about your work or throwing you under the bus. It's one thing after another and, and you know, I think that's probably one of the biggest things we want to fix here is like, let's stop talking trash about each other. And you know, it's odd, because and I don't know, I don't know enough about John's background to, you know, it sounds like you were both kind of texts in one way or another. But, you know, one of the things that we keep seeing here is that there is a clear line between someone that has the owner perspective and someone that has the technician perspective. And what I mean by that is, is that there's a lot of techs who are saying I can't believe they're charging that test your car, I can do that. And then they're going in there, Moonlighting, they're going after hours, and they're working on cars, right? And they're saying, I can't believe such and such did this. That's a terrible job. And so it's this culture of throwing each other under the bus, right? And the problem being is, is that we can't make the industry better, right? Like, we can't make sure they're paid what they need to be paid. If they're out here telling everybody Oh, they're ripping you off, they're charging you too much. Right? They become toxic, because the shops charging what they're charging. And you can see the line in the sand, because they don't understand what it takes to run a business. Right. Not saying that they're not great people. I'm not saying that they aren't intelligent. I'm just saying they don't have the perspective of the business owner. They don't understand how much money it takes to run a repair shop.
Peter Leondis 54:13
There, you know, divide
Kosta Ka 54:16
the and you know, you know what, customers love it. Customers love to drag you into that conversation. You know, you have some customers that we made a very, very clear rule. Amen only say 10 years ago, that we're going to be factors we're not going to get involved in in the sad this was the last time I don't know wasn't there. That's it. Sorry. I can't tell you the last person which in your head. Right, this question of change that so seriously, but that Yeah. You don't know for context. This is your side of the story. What's happened you can't show me any paperwork. What's happened. I'm just going to tell you what I can see. If you if you think it's a warranty job, you go back to him and speak to him. We don't get involved. And the only time that I've ever gotten involved is what I've seen a job that is 100%. The This shouldn't be done right? And but I'll call the shop and say, Hey, guys, I'm sending this guy back. He doesn't know I've actually called you up. I've seen your service seeker on the I'm just giving you a call. Half. I've done it a couple of times, it hasn't always gone down well, so I'm just letting you know he's going to come back and see you haven't actually been told them. I'm calling you. So service the grantley. Yeah, be prepared for that conversation. So do what you've got to do. That gets me that Oh, thanks, mate, or gets met with Go fuck yourself. So either way, whatever. I feel like I've done what I what I've done is right. So hello, got biggest pet peeve. You know, the guy down the road, trying to talk down the garbage guy down the road to make them so I think it's that's such a toxic trait so bad.
Lucas Underwood 55:47
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Look, I'll never forget, I had a situation one time where I had another shop that had quoted work away from us, right. And we had done this job. It was something that it required multiple thermostats, right? And this other shop clearly that A j quoted a single thermostat, right? And the guy's like, hey, they're going to do it for this. And so I called the other shop, and I'm like, Hey, I just want you to know, I know that you're probably working off of what he's told you, I said, but I know that it's a price he's given because the price is the same. If I just do one thermostat. I'm concerned that you don't have all the information I just want you to know about it. The dude got there and they told him that I had called and he calls and starts like ripping me a new one. And all I was trying to do is help them right I was trying to help make sure that the dudes car a got fixed properly, whether it was here somewhere else and be trying to make sure that that shop didn't end up in a situation where now the car's not fixed and dude expects it fixed for free. Right and yet they still throw me under the bus. And guess what his car wasn't fixed. And now he's mad at me because they said I misdiagnosed it originally. Right like what in the world? Is this even possible?
Peter Leondis 57:05
There's a question deed you got it goes unpunished Lucas. Yeah, that's the that's the saying no good deed goes unpunished. But not Tommy,
Kosta Ka 57:15
do you guys normally would you guys take on a from the shop down the road diagnosed? Do you guys just repair their dog? Would you take their diagnosis as a repair? We're not gonna
Lucas Underwood 57:25
do wood. You're, hey, listen, let me ask you a question, Kosta? If you went to a doctor and said, Hey, listen, this one over here. Told me I've got prostate cancer. Can you go and take that stuff out? Would you? If he said yes. Would you go to him? Let me I'm just curious what you do that?
Peter Leondis 57:44
I'd rather him check it. I'd rather get out of game. Yeah, but you like that sort of stuff?
Lucas Underwood 57:51
Hey, David goes from Doctor.
Kosta Ka 57:54
to doctor to doctor to doctor. So I'm sure it's okay. But can you just check again? I just need to make it's time. Time this week. Yes. Just check again.
Lucas Underwood 58:07
Oh my god. The last time David went for that he came in he was super upset. And he said, Man, both of his hands were on my shoulder
David Roman 58:21
that's, that's terrible. But guys like my my staff, the guys like Hey, relax my hands like hey. And he's like, still? I said
Lucas Underwood 58:40
well, you can tell this this podcast about automotive
Peter Leondis 58:44
is fantastic. So there are there are some Americans without humor. That's great. Yes,
Lucas Underwood 58:50
yes, the Canadians. The Canadians are straight without
David Roman 58:58
Facebook. I said, Hey, we're going international. And I asked the kids, you know, sound off where you're from. And there was some people from Australia, some people from the UK, Ireland, but it was like 90% Canadian, other than us, obviously, like it was 90% chance you just pissed all those people off. Lucas.
Lucas Underwood 59:16
You know, listen, I'm only talking about one of them. It's Jeff.
Peter Leondis 59:23
Anyway, now we do there is there is a bit of a following from suppose from our immediate network anyway, to your particular network. I do know that there's quite a few guys that we know that follow your stuff. And it's typically the solid typically the business owner rather than the technician that I've noticed follow you guys so so most of our following on the garage network is actually business owner. And what's the split costs are well, let's call it 7030 73. Last
Kosta Ka 59:54
sort of semi count. Yeah.
Peter Leondis 59:57
Yeah, and most most of the guys that we know Oh, that are actively business owners on our network actually follow yours. So there you go.
Lucas Underwood 1:00:05
Well, that is fantastic, man. That is That is great. That's
David Roman 1:00:11
the that's the problem. So that's the narrative you guys need to push out. So you're here in the US, we farm our deserts in California, which is on the west coast, they pump water into the desert so they can then farm the desert. It's the most insane thing you guys leave desert alone. Like, there's some crazy animals out there, we're just gonna leave it. It's all desert, let's just pack into these corners of this country by the water, but not here in the US here in the US is wide open. And so they're like, Hey, here's a flat piece of land. Let's see the build a factory or a farm. We don't have any water doesn't matter. We'll pump it in from some other state. That's what we do.
Peter Leondis 1:00:48
Yeah, I love I love the I've seen some of the some pictures of some of the shop owners that you guys have got there with the size of their land, and I'm so envious, like, they'll have they'll have 10 hoists in the in their shop. And it's painted floors and separate reception. The reception is not even genuineness. It's like its own entity, you know, and there's a man there's no parking Ranger dirty cars, no parking ranger to walk around,
David Roman 1:01:14
you know, that concept of parking Ranger. That would be the enemy. That'd be the light, you'd find me attacking the parking Ranger, the first time they put a ticket on the map, and you know, it'd be a good discussion. And then the next thing you just see this crazy shop owner came in attack the poor parking Ranger, and I just
Lucas Underwood 1:01:32
absolute checks out. would happen. It would happen. He Listen, I have been on the phone with him when the when the police come to check in because the alarm went off. Okay, I'm gonna tell you what is a big old country boy, I would have been shocked. They would have just shot me dead for talking to law that way. I promise. I know. David just like, forced him out. You know,
Peter Leondis 1:01:57
the good thing is that you know, you know, a very well organized shop owner here by their location. So if they're in the appear in the Sydney region, there's every chance that they're a very well organized shop owner and they work extraordinarily
David Roman 1:02:14
well. You
Kosta Ka 1:02:15
know, you really got to be like, that's
Lucas Underwood 1:02:18
crazy. It's crazy. I hadn't thought of it. So look at how many I think we need to do international shop tours now. Because like, I'm really curious about gels operations versus our operations at their shops. Sounds like it's
David Roman 1:02:33
your we're seeing the shops in New York, New York City, using a shop in New York City. It's, it's a, it's a it's a tiny building, there's no parking, there's four lifts, and there's a desk, that's the shop. And then that's it. Yeah. And out of that shop, they're doing $2 million. And you're like, yeah, that's,
Kosta Ka 1:02:51
that's one of the senior ones don't don't get us wrong. And we have this conversation so many times with, with our members or we're guys like what we're in Australian. And the guy that we speak too often is a guy from Duckburg little country town, or even little anymore, we used to be a little country town. And they've got you know, 500 square meter workshop, which I don't know what that is in times two and a half with a joint 1000 square meter. So again, times two and a half car park attached to it, which you know, absolute polished floors, you know, the right brake made everything that you drive over the whole shebang, you know, and, and busy hours. And so, and there hurdles are things like, oh, you know, we can't do a desk house because no street signs, you know, the street signs are not to regulation where dynamics won't pick them up, you know, but then ours is, well, we can't actually do an 80 Kilometer test or we can't do it, we can't hit. You know, we can't do 60 miles to test the vibration. You know, that's a common thing. Like when I had a mascot, especially because it's quite dense in population, but also near the airport that traffic is insane. If I ever wanted to do a high speed road test, you had to be 9pm at night, so I'd have to go home have dinner and then come back and do that do it at night, or super early, like 6am Anything else in between you're not going to be able to go any faster than 60 kilometers an hour and that's hooning it whatever that's that's that's been borderline dangerous in those areas. So different hurdles for different people we did drill it is
David Roman 1:04:35
that this country is so diverse. That it sounds like you guys are two that weren't in the same situation. So he's he's on top of a mountain and the roads there I use taking pictures of it or just nuts where I'm in the Midwest so it's flat and for the most part and and wide open. So straight roads are all straight and flat and you hit 90 Isn't Got a miles an hour? So really fast and kilometers per hour? Not a problem.
Peter Leondis 1:05:08
It is. Yeah, I'm extraordinarily confused by your systems. May I tell you that much like, you're in Imperial Imperial? Seven, eight.
Kosta Ka 1:05:21
Use Oh, God,
Lucas Underwood 1:05:22
oh God. Listen,
Peter Leondis 1:05:24
we millimeters three millimeters
Kosta Ka 1:05:27
100 degrees,
Lucas Underwood 1:05:28
the grandpa degrees. That's really the grandpa, the grandpa of a SOG. Okay, has a real problem, a real problem with the metric system really. I'm gonna let y'all talk. If I can find it, I will play it. But I'm just
David Roman 1:05:47
warning me and ranting,
Lucas Underwood 1:05:48
we're all gonna get hate. And
David Roman 1:05:50
that's crazy. Oh, man ranting about nothing. Yeah, the metric system doesn't make sense. But Murca in America, we just made
David Roman 1:06:03
when I when I started as a tech, you had to have standard and metric tools. So you had to have a set rates. And you know, that's what so you would buy these is not seen in this part of the country for a really long time. Letting go of a country on the moon, using metrics pulls up a moon landing. We landed on the Moon using Imperial
Lucas Underwood 1:06:35
that we win, what you don't know is he takes his pistol out, he slams his pistol on the table, straining glass. And he's like, we don't do that. Oh my god.
Kosta Ka 1:06:51
Very passionate, very passionate.
Peter Leondis 1:06:52
I might actually do later on I might, I might post a little video of of a walk around of our shop, or the podcasting from so. So it's, it's a Saturday here. And we only operate a five day week. So Monday through Friday, so it's a Saturday. So we've got all our cars out for the for the week. So I've got an empty car park and an empty shop. So I'll do a walk around. Show you how to do it. I'll take a video of the ginormous 700 Odd unit block that's opposite. So you can sort of get an idea of how densities are going to be concerned when you sit down and take a video of the ginormous and then you ask where is he Please don't Don't do this so quickly. Still recording, please stop. And what I'll do I'll take a video of the shop that's actually in the in the West as well. So then you can see the proximity to the Harbour Bridge and the fact that we have bugger all parking there as well. So
Lucas Underwood 1:07:58
that do that would be awesome. Because you got I think that'll start a really awesome discussion. Well,
Peter Leondis 1:08:02
I think I think I certainly look at, look at your shops there and pictures of when people post. And I think I think these guys take it for granted their their space, you know,
David Roman 1:08:13
most of them do. But if you if you interact with a few guys from New York City, they're there. That's what they deal with the exact same thing you guys do. And I don't know how they operate. It's not in the the the amount of regulation and they've got something like a park or a parking ranger there too. They've got the state like right on top of them, but checking absolutely every little nuance of their business. And they just a lot of them just operate under the radar. It's all black market there. It's all black right now. Yep. Yeah. Right. So
Kosta Ka 1:08:46
we just look well, so obviously we got five states six days. That's horrible, right? Remember, some don't count doesn't matter. So we're
Kosta Ka 1:08:57
not going to say which ones because then like? Yeah, I'd say so.
Kosta Ka 1:09:04
We, with New South Wales, and one of the state honestly Swa you do have to be licensed and qualified and all that sort of jazz to run a workshop or even be a mechanic you've got to be employed. If it gets to the apprenticeship program, you have to get qualified, you have to have that that process happened. Then yourself, do you have business license all that jazz? But then you go into some of the other states because they're a federally run program. And it's pretty wild. Like there'll be a guy that he's advertising shoe repairs and tires like fuck, you know, like, it makes no sense. It makes no sense. Like, be like you're saying oil Yes. Decide that. You know what I've I've I've done a service before I can fix cars. And you're allowing it then yeah,
David Roman 1:09:51
again, you're trying to what we found though, so yeah, so they in here in the US also, same thing like you go up to Michigan, which was up north. And they you have to be certified. You have to have certified mechanic shops got to be certified and it's got a state board and they come in, but the wrong minute like it hasn't fixed anything. So the quality of repairs isn't any better. The technicians aren't getting paid any better. The conditions aren't any better. They're the cars aren't any safer. The cars are just as janky up there as they are down here. And so here it's wide open in my state, it's wide open, you can just like I said, you open up one day posts on Facebook that your shop and now your shop and that's it. And the the the only thing you can get in trouble is you know what taxes. So that's about it.
Peter Leondis 1:10:37
And if you guys got annual roadworthy inspections for your vehicles there.
Lucas Underwood 1:10:41
We do in North Carolina there. Listen, there did the wheels fall off when you pulled it into the shop? You're right, and we charge them any money for something. And that's pretty much the extent of it, right? That's
Peter Leondis 1:10:52
wild. Yeah, we've got a New South Wales vs. Annual roadworthy inspection. So most of most of the cars are inspected thoroughly and need to be roadworthy. But there are a few states that don't have those regulations. And when you go there for for holiday, you see or vacation, you see some some vehicles driving around that just shut out be on the road.
Lucas Underwood 1:11:13
How much do they charge for those because like, for instance, the state safety inspection, here's $13.60 is the most you can charge.
Peter Leondis 1:11:21
Right? So how long is it? And what's the requirement? Is it you're required? If
Lucas Underwood 1:11:25
you did it by the book, it would take you 20 or 30 minutes, but most people because it is what it is they just pull it in. Yep, lights work. horn works goods ship it right.
Peter Leondis 1:11:37
Box, isn't it? So? Yeah, we've got our
Lucas Underwood 1:11:40
$6 of that or something like that's the sticker 91 cents of that sticker. So so yeah.
Peter Leondis 1:11:46
So how roadworthy inspections of $42.43 that had gone up pay 43. Sorry, they've gone up, and they typically should hike if you're going to do if you're going to do on correctly, about 20 minutes, you know, so yeah, so my sort of protocol is your road test the vehicle and your brake testing it. Then you're bringing it in, you're checking all the lights on your handbrake hosting it, checking the front end, making sure that nothing's untoward in the front end. No oil leaks. Everything's okay. No rustling the shazzy. Most of them are flopping anyway. And away you go. But typically, it's a 20 minute sort of turnaround.
Lucas Underwood 1:12:26
Yeah. Now, how do you pay your technicians on that?
Peter Leondis 1:12:29
So so we pay our technicians. So all of our technicians are salary package that I suppose is very similar to yours? So, yeah, so we sort of go on, we go on count, and average repair order as well. So we're, we're trying to sort of monitor our our metrics like that and keep our wages to a certain. So typically, I like to keep my wages to under About 25% of my my turnover. So that's how we're sort of monitoring our metrics in particular, but yeah, but our techs get paid, if we had zero work in the door, they still get paid for, you know, if there's, if there's a lot of work, then they pull their finger out, and they do the right thing as well. And that's the culture that we're bred in as well. And I think, I think doing the isn't the flat rate that you guys have, I think doing the flat rate, sort of, like you said, it's a bit of a double edged sword, because you could get guys that are trying to cut corners to up their times. And then if there's no work, they don't get paid, did I? So, yeah, yeah, you know, so the next exact next job that they take on, they're trying to make up that shortfall.
Lucas Underwood 1:13:39
And it's always a push just to pay to be healthy, right, we chose the exact opposite.
David Roman 1:13:43
So in my state, there's no safety inspection. But I'm on the board of another state. And that state does have safety inspections. And let me tell you, the cars are not any safer. They are just clapped out. And the problem is you think Well, everybody has to give them safety checks like dude, they just go to the guy down the street, who wink wink, nod nod hooks him up, in the car always passes, now that guy will get shut down. So what like he doesn't care who close up and open up somewhere down the street. And all of a sudden, he's doing the same thing again, under his wife's name, this time. And they're operating a similar business, just handing out stickers. So it's, there's no way around it. It's the person wants to fix the car, they want to make sure it's safe, then they'll show up to a good reputable shop. And they'll make sense a vehicle is being inspected. Yep. And they'll do the right thing. If the person's like, I don't care, as long as the sorts of drives. That's it, and the wheels are wobbling down the road and everything's like smoking. They don't care if they still won't care.
Lucas Underwood 1:14:41
And you know, you brought up a really important point earlier is is that most of the time nothing happens, right? Unfortunately, it only takes somebody losing a child and only take somebody losing a husband or a wife. It only takes somebody losing a parent for somebody to give a name. Right. And that screwed up but I mean That's the honest to God truth because most of the time nobody ever pays the price for that. Except that one time that they do, you know,
Kosta Ka 1:15:07
like we will people saying about eight specials like don't get me wrong, it's absolutely floored, like you will go on Facebook marketplace and there's guys there for 500 200 bucks I'll pass anything. You don't lay there on there and just send us a photo of your paperwork in we quit all electronic now so we just send it through free. No, that's still that sort of shit happens but like I told some of my customer like Yeah, look, you may not give a shit about your time has been worn or your you know, your brake lines leaking. But you know what my mom drives on the same road as you guys my sister driving same or as you guys absolutely this kid the schools around just because you're almost at the C word just because you're tight. Just because you're tight doesn't mean that you should put people's life at risk. That's your decision you've made you can risk your life, that's fine. It's not their fault. You know,
Lucas Underwood 1:16:06
100%,
Peter Leondis 1:16:08
your your issues might be might be the same as ours. And we could fail a registration inspection or a roadworthy inspection for whatever reason, and then see that vehicle the following day driving down the street, because they've taken it to John down the road and John down the roads past it. So there needs to be some uniformity as well around. If I'm failing, I'm failing it for a reason. And there's there's multiple reasons that I'm failing. And it could be that I find it unroadworthy. And, you know, it could be that I feel that that's not quite right. And I don't want that car on the on the road. But John down the road, you got to have the same ethos as me inspector discretion. That's where it is. So yeah, and we inspected one recently in the tie rod was really, really loose was excessive movement in the tie rod. And I found that that car on the road, the following afternoon passed, you know, it was really bad. So who's inspecting these things? Are they looking at them? You know, they're just passing them ticket flick, you know, like, Well, I think the problem
Kosta Ka 1:17:16
is because the cost is so important. I guarantee if there was a tournament $35 inspection, you don't want to lose that license, you want to make sure you're doing them. So I'll guarantee you 1000s to thread or inspection, and you will allocate that half hour for it. You know what I mean? Yeah, so at 43 bucks, which is your money $25 roughly like to do it properly. You We do it because it's a value add for our customers no other reason. It's not a moneymaker.
David Roman 1:17:45
moneymaker, but I will contend that it is guaranteed car count,
Kosta Ka 1:17:50
it is guaranteed to have the
David Roman 1:17:53
availability, the the states that have state inspections, that I see fewer shops struggling for cars than the states that don't the here in Kansas, we don't have any kind of anything. So I got a car, it's because I have to work at it, the marketing to get the car in the door, or, and they have to pick me specifically because they can go across the border and go to the Missouri shop if they want. Or they can pick one of the 18 shops that are around me to go to I've got to work really hard to outpace all those and get the car in to me. But I may never see that customer again. And so now it's a remarketing effort, I've got to go back and make sure I can sleep for that specific customer, to get them to come back in a second or third time, showing them the value to a in having the vehicle inspected on a regular basis to make sure the vehicle is safe and sound. So you end up having to appeal to those people that do want to make sure that the vehicle is safe. I don't get any guaranteed anything, were the places that have those insane inspections like Yeah, that's great, you will will always have somebody calling you about a car, even if it's just to do a state inspection. Yeah, that's just an opportunity here, they give away oil changes for that. So you're doing an oil change in the door to be able to inspect it to then be able to sell ball joints and bearings and whatever else. They're given away oil change for 15 bucks $20 $25 loss later to get there. Yeah, because they know like that's gonna get cars in the door. Everybody's gonna show up. And so then I can sell the work and travel places I would sleep inspections. I have a little Lego on there.
Kosta Ka 1:19:34
You know what, you know, you're not wrong at all, like we do when in reality with the most reasonable people you win, like you can win a fair bit of work out of them. Obviously the rules are pretty rigid. One of the rules is you can't property from inspections. So you got to make sure that it's whatever you're repairing is something that has to be done. As probably the only thing that the government really strict if someone complains, and they believe you've done the wrong thing. You're in trouble.
David Roman 1:19:59
gotta fix that though. You guys have DVRs, right? Digital
Kosta Ka 1:20:04
digital videos. So we do photos, believe it or not. DVRs are a very common thing in Australia, not many workshops do them, we do a lot of documentation photos, that gets sent out to customers, not through a program, but just to our invoicing program that we have. But definitely DVI is modified to be a thing that we're going to look into as well,
Peter Leondis 1:20:25
that we'll talk about. It's yesterday. We had it we had a big team meeting yesterday among both the shops, and we did a bit of a strategy session. And that was one of the things I got brought up because it David, it's not very popular here at all. And only seldom, only very few dealers are actually using that as well, even here. So that could be something that could be a point of difference, but I definitely think you're right, but car count it for a shop that does the roadworthy inspections is obviously going to be higher and there is a chance that you you win some work with in the past actually won a fair bit of service work off the back end, roadworthy inspection just saying, hey, Jan, cars past roadworthy, just to let you know, though, front and rear brakes are getting a little bit low and I do notice it's overdue for service. Oh, didn't realize Can you please walk me in? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and if you're doing the right thing, then hopefully they remain a customer.
David Roman 1:21:27
That's the intent. Yep. Absolutely. Awesome, guys. Yes, sir. It's fun.
Lucas Underwood 1:21:32
Well, sounds good. Hey, we'll have to do this again. Right. Like I think we need to make a follow up to this. I've really enjoyed myself. This has been a really awesome
Peter Leondis 1:21:40
thank you didn't even get to get through
Kosta Ka 1:21:42
any more questions, but that's okay. We'll do it next time.
Lucas Underwood 1:21:46
Yeah, we definitely. Do you guys want the video to or just the audio