Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown, the podcast where pastor and author, Matt Brown, debriefs your questions about Christianity and current issues shaping our culture. Thank you for listening, and enjoy the show.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Welcome to another episode of The Debrief. And I have my buddy, John Bevere here today. Thank you, John, for being here.
John Bevere:Matt, it's great to be on with you. I'm honored. Oh, man.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you so much. So I'm gonna talk about
John Bevere:I just wonder how much I'm gonna laugh on this program. You you keep me laughing. You and my wife are just a pair. Let me tell you.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Apparently, I'm licking the microphone to entertain you. Yeah. And I
John Bevere:can see that Fur
Matthew Stephen Brown:in my mouth. Fur. So if anybody's not watching
John Bevere:your wife's sweater she was wearing yesterday. Everybody doesn't understand that, but Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:This sweater was dying, you know, as we speak. So how did y'all meet? Let me let me talk about this. So I met you before you met me. So when I met you, I don't know if you remember this, but it's your wife's 60th birthday party and it was a surprise.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm in your house, I've never met you. I've never met John, I'm in his house and hoping it's the right house as I pull up and you show up and you say, hey guys, you know, Lisa's pulling up right away. Thank you so much for coming. And you said, Matt and Tammy Brown, whoever you are, can't wait to meet you.
John Bevere:I did. Yeah. And then you
Matthew Stephen Brown:ran into the garage. So it was great. So I was like literally like a burglary in John's house, but we had a great time and just a great visit. And I met so many great friends at that party. Well, you
John Bevere:know, Matt and or or Tammy and Lisa had become very, very close friends. Mhmm. And what it was, it was a surprise birthday party, and it was her 60th right in the middle of COVID.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:So I actually snuck Tammy's number off my wife's phone, which I felt really weird doing, and texted her. And she said, we'll come. We'll come. And I was so happy you guys did.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Love it, man. I'm glad to be here. So let me tell you a funny story. So, you know, you're Italian.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. 70 percent?
John Bevere:Yes, sir.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. So Lisa is less.
John Bevere:Yes. 50%, but she has the citizenship and passport.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. So I have believed my entire life I was Italian. Have I told you this story? No. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So in my first book, A Book Called You, I wrote I'm Italian. It's it was in the book and, my whole life my mom told me we're Italian, whatever. And so we take 23andme. I am 0% Italian. I am 70% Irish.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Like there's I I'm I have point 04% African. I'm more African than I am Italian. That's a true story. I've been telling people, I've told stories about that's why I'm loud, that's why I just have this huge personality, 0% Italian.
John Bevere:Well Irish do have big personalities.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And a drinking problem. So that's where that comes from.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So but oh my gosh can you believe that? I've been lying from the pulpit for, you know, 25 years.
John Bevere:So Elise and I had an argument Okay. Just for years. I said, I'm more Italian than you. She's like, no. No.
John Bevere:No. So we took 2. Okay. And I beat her out, and I said, you know, finally, a 33 year argument is solved. I am more Italian than you.
John Bevere:Amen. Amen. But she makes fun of my name because it sounds French. So I felt like I didn't tell her the truth when we got married because I said, my name, I think, is French, but I'm more Italian. But, actually, I have 0 French in me.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And she
John Bevere:said I got cheated. She said she wanted to marry a Frenchman, a Dutchman, not an Italian. I said, well, you got them.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. Where does Bevere come from?
John Bevere:It's it was changed at Ellis Island.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
John Bevere:So it's bevere. Okay. And that's the way it's said. And so hers is Toscana.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
John Bevere:Yeah. Hello. They've got a family crest, all the all the stuff. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:So I'm feeling she wins the arguments. The only thing I've got on her is blood.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That's hilarious, man. Okay. So, I met you, and I shared this in the the studio audience, but our our main church didn't hear this story. But I actually met you in Hawaii.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you were preaching and I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to hear anything you had to say. Not because I don't love you, but because when you're in Hawaii, it is hard to conference.
John Bevere:You won't be in the waves.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. I wanted to go surfing and Tammy made me because she had heard about Lisa Bevere. And she said, this guy is you're gonna love this guy. He wrote a book something about Satan. That's that's that's it.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm like, why on earth do I wanna hear a guy that wrote a book about Satan? We're supposed to be at a, you know, and by the way, one of his most famous books is the Beta of Satan, but I didn't know that at the time. And so I show up and this was this, John, was a pivotal moment for me. I wasn't doing well. Our church was struggling.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I was about ready to turn 40. And I sit down and, you know, you're full of energy and you, you know, you know, you're you. You just come at it super excited. And I'm sitting there and I'm like: God, I don't want to hear this guy. I don't want to hear anything about Satan.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But you didn't preach on Satan. You preached on honor.
John Bevere:Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And about halfway through your message, the Holy Spirit just starts, I mean, pounding me. And I I'm so convicted I didn't even try to meet you at the end. I I had to go home. And so I met Tammy and she's, you know, Lisa's the best and, oh, my gosh, my new best friend. And and I'm like, look, we got to go we got to go home.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We went back to the hotel and I said, I need to talk to you in the bedroom. And she's like, woah. And I went and sat her on the bed, John. I got on my knees. And I said, I have not honored you as my wife, and I need to ask her forgiveness right here, right now.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Will you forgive me? And she did. And I don't think she felt dishonored, but I knew through you. And it changed me. It changed the kind of husband I am.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Then I came home and it changed our church. So we're going to be a culture of honor. If I take you into our executive pastor's office, one of the points, and you guys have seen it, House of Honor, that's from John. That didn't come from me. We're a House of Honor.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We honor up, we honor out, we honor down. Every single person we meet, we honor. And so, you know, this is your first time at Saint Louis Church, but you have affected this church in a positive way for 12 years. You've changed the direction. So at that time, we had 0 campuses.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Now we have 14 campuses. I don't think we had an online ministry at all. Now about a 100 was it a 120,000 people a week? A 110? I don't know what the number is.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, tune in, to listen to us digitally. And all of that happened after I repented of my sin for dishonoring my wife. And I realized our church was not a house of honor because I was not living a house of honor. And it wasn't something I was aware of. You know, if you'd have said, Matt, do you honor Tammy?
Matthew Stephen Brown:I would have gone, Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, of course, John. You know, the Bible says, But God used you to change this church. And that's why I'm so glad, you know, you're here this weekend. This is a big weekend for our church.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So we're in 40 days of prayer and then we start miracles. So miracles is the next one. And so, you know, Easter is coming up real, you know, short this year.
John Bevere:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So Easter is the greatest miracle in the history of the world.
John Bevere:Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so people don't think about yeah. They don't think about it that way. And and I just truly believe thousands of people are gonna come to Christ. Last year at Easter, John, we had 5,000 people stand and pray to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. 5,000.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I've never seen anything like it. So this year
John Bevere:That's remarkable.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We're believing for more. Wow. And, just trusting what God's gonna do. And, you know, America needs revival, but California, we need revival. And so, I don't know if there's anybody listening that just normally listens to you, but as you pray for John and Lisa's ministry, pray for California.
John Bevere:Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's so important. And the reason why I go to Ocean's Church, you know, when you and Lisa are there, that's where we last met and were able to set this up, was I love that God brought a guy from Idaho to California because we just lose everybody. I I feel like, I feel like this general taking a hill and all my best soldiers are like, God's calling me to Texas. God's calling me to Idaho. And I have I have felt, Lord, like, you know, because if God says retreat, I'll retreat.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But if he didn't, I'm going to stay here and fight on the front lines until I die. And we I had some good friends leave, John, and they said we're making the best decision for our family. And I said, what about my family? Like, I'm still here. My kids are still here.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, California is it's it's harder than people know. It's more difficult than people know. But I met you at Oceans because God called him from the safety of Idaho to California, and he has such a big vision. We're talking about Mark Franci.
John Bevere:Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Has such a big vision for California, And I don't know if he's gonna accomplish all of his goals, but I'll tell you what. I'm gonna cheer him on.
John Bevere:And I love that about you.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. Oh, man. I I want to be the church guy, John. I want to celebrate the church.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not my church. It's the Lord's church. I want to be I want to be a church guy. You know, Tammy and I, when we were when we were up Church guy.
John Bevere:That's why God is blessing you so much right now. You understand this is all about him.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:Anything we have, he's given us Amen. That equipment, those giftings to build his kingdom. Mhmm. Now we can misuse them. We can use them for our own glory.
John Bevere:Mhmm. We can use them for our own benefit. Mhmm. And that's when things go south.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:And I love that. I mean, I saw that right from yesterday. I I I watched the way you you handled everybody that was in that room yesterday, the way you talked to your staff. I'm observant.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I've been
John Bevere:in a lot of ministers. I've been in this for 4 decades.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:And I love it when a pastor loves his wife, his children, honors his wife, honors his children, and you're doing it. And to be honest with you, that's what really brings me a lot of joy. Lisa told me the story about how honor impacted you and you ran that service in Hawaii. I remember the exact service. I remember when I preached it.
John Bevere:Yeah. And I was so touched by it. But to come here and actually see it in action is is real. And and and, you know, you and I as leaders I mean, what leader doesn't make a mistake?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:So, you know, I went to the holy spirit one day and I said, Lord, who who corrects me when I go wrong? And my board's not here watching me. And, I said, I wanna make a deal with you. I said, if I talk to my team in a way that's dishonorable, keep me up at night. Do you know how many emails I've written at the middle of the lot?
John Bevere:Yeah. At 2 between 2 and 3 in the morning. And every time I talk about it, my staff just cracks up. They laugh. It's a joke now.
John Bevere:Right? And so, I love that. I see that. I observe that with you, and I just wanna thank you. And that's why you're flourishing.
John Bevere:And now I see that overflowing towards the other pastors of the area, And I wish all of us had that kind of heart, because it's all about Jesus and him.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. And, and if you're a leader listening, that takes it takes so much pressure off when it's Jesus, when it's his church, and it's it's his it's his, you know, just just it's it's all about him. So let's talk real quick about your book, The Awe of God. This book is doing really well. How did you come up with this idea, formulate this and and you know I know, 42 chapters like it's like okay, you have a reason for that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But God is God is is blessing this book in a very very I mean all your books are great, but he's doing something special with this. So talk to us about that.
John Bevere:It all began in 1994. I went to a church, and I had seen the fear of the Lord all over the scripture. And I'm like, why don't we talk about this? And I, remember in this particular church, it was the biggest church in 5 counties. The Lord said, I want you to I want you to speak on it.
John Bevere:And I'm like, I'm not I don't know that I'm comfortable. So I got up and I gave a very very lighthearted talk. And the next night, before it was a conference, before the pastor introduced me, he corrected what I said for 15 minutes before I got up. And he said, you know, John preached error last night. Fearing God is an old testament doctrine.
John Bevere:God's not giving us a spirit of fear in the new testament. He's given a spirit of power, love, and a sound mind. Wow. Perfected love casts out fear. And I'm sitting in the front row, and I'm going, well, I'm not getting introduced.
John Bevere:Then to my shock, utter shock, he introduces me. It was the hardest 35 minute message I think I've ever given. The next morning I went out and I I started saying, God, I'm so sorry. How have I hurt your church? What have I done?
John Bevere:I mean, this is a really well known man. And I didn't feel the correction of God. I felt the pleasure. And I found myself crying out, lord, I wanna know the holy fear of God. Well, interestingly enough, that church doesn't exist anymore.
John Bevere:The man, the last I heard, is building houses. It is interesting. But it started me on a journey. And then later on that year, I met a man who was in prison and told me that he loved Jesus while he was doing all of his stuff, and but he didn't fear God. So those two encounters started me on a quest, and I started searching and praying.
John Bevere:The scripture is diligently praying diligently. God, I wanna know the fear of God. Because whenever you hear the fear of God, people get really nervous. Anything with fear. I mean, we tried to eradicate fear in the 19 nineties.
John Bevere:Remember the t shirts, no fear?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:The only thing we have to fear is fear itself, FDR.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean,
John Bevere:I could go on and on and on. When in reality, I realized there's actually 2 buckets of fear. There's constructive fear and there's destructive fear. The constructive fear of not getting mauled by a mother grizzly bear will give me the wisdom to not mess with her cubs in front of her.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:That's actually not a bad fear. Yeah. It's actually now it can go unhealthy by the fact that I'm so scared of that grizzly bear, I won't go for a walk in the woods. Now the fear of the Lord is not an unhealthy fear. It's a very, very healthy fear.
John Bevere:It's the beginning of an intimate relationship with God. I mean, that right there should get all of our attention. And so I started really, really digging, and I wrote a book in 19 90 7 called The Fear of the Lord. It did okay, but it didn't do what I was hoping. I was hoping pastors would grab it, start teaching it, that we would see a restoration of the healthy fear of God in the church.
John Bevere:So, Lisa has a very well known book agent, and she's done a lot of the, bigger authors, and she kept she didn't do anything for me. You know, Lisa's the big New York Times bestseller, but she kept pestering me saying you've got to write this book on the fear of the Lord because I I shared it with her at one point. And and in 9 2022, the spirit of God spoke to me and said, now is the time. And I began writing that book, and I took the whole year of 2022 to do it, not realizing that it was really the time that God was gonna put this on people's hearts. See, people see a gap today.
John Bevere:We have understood that God is our dad. We've understood that Jesus loves us deeply, and we should always always walk in that because God loved us so much. And when I think, it brings me to tears in my morning prayer. When I think about my creator who agrees to come to this earth, and he agrees to be despised, spit in the face, punched in the face, thorns shoved in his head, his beard plucked out, to be whipped so severely that by the time he gets to a cross, he doesn't even have the appearance of a human being anymore. And I'm thinking my creator chooses to do that, so we can't even imagine what he left.
John Bevere:So I'm established in the sense that I know he loves me, but I kept seeing the holy fear, and I kept seeing all the promises. Like after 30 years of studying, I saw over 40 distinct promises that aren't made to anybody else other than those that fear God. So I had to start understanding it, and I realized the first thing was the fear of God wasn't to be scared of God, because the fear of God actually draws me to him. It doesn't repulse me from him. It's actually being terrified of being away from him.
John Bevere:And when I look at the fear of God being Jesus' delight, Isaiah 11:3, I look at it being God's treasure, Isaiah 33 verse 6. I look at it how Paul says, we mature our salvation through fear and trembling. I thought, wait a minute, something really is missing. Well, then I start realizing in 2022, this is when I got the information that Barnas said over 30,000,000 Americans have walked away from the faith.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That's heartbreaking. I mean, that
John Bevere:that put me on my face, and that's when God spoke to me and said, write this book, and I started writing it, and I started realizing what this book was gonna do, because it was doing something in me. I'm always I say my names on these books, because I was the first guy to get to read them. They always do something in me, and if they do something in me, I know they'll help others. Well, this is the 24th book I've written, and no book that I've written has exploded. I mean, Beta Satan hits 6,000,000 copies last September.
John Bevere:Mhmm. No book has ever exploded like this one. And I really believe it's because what God spoke to my heart in the early 19 nineties. So here I am going through this turmoil, this guy telling me, you know, you you messed up in front of everybody. And shortly afterwards, the Lord said, son, the final move of my spirit on the earth before Jesus returns will be a move of the holy healthy fear of God.
John Bevere:He said, because the fear of the Lord is what perfects holiness. Paul didn't say holiness is perfect in the love of God. And that evangelist who was in prison shared that with me.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:I love Jesus, but I was so unholy. Right? Ungodly. So the church that Jesus is coming back for, the only description is a holy bride without spot or wrinkle. There's no other description of the church.
John Bevere:So the Lord said the move, the emphasis of the move of a final move of my spirit will be that, and it'll produce the holy church that's powerful. Because when you fear God, you fear nothing else. Yes. Okay. All unhealthy cheers fears get put aside.
John Bevere:They get put in check. They're obliterated. Right. And this is what church fathers have taught for centuries, and they stopped teaching it in the 20th century. We got away from it right around 1960 and on.
John Bevere:Once that Jesus revolution hit, we were so so enamored, and should be, by the fact that our daddy loved us. We didn't wanna talk about fear because we thought fear was unhealthy. So in reality, we put away the very thing that the Bible promises will keep us till till the end. I mean, think about it. Lucifer led worship right before the throne of God.
John Bevere:Right. He beheld his glory. That would put that which put Isaiah on his face and said, I'm undone. Lucifer's worshiping God, but he doesn't fear God, he doesn't endure in heaven forever. A third of the angels behold the Lord.
John Bevere:They don't fear God. They don't endure forever. Adam and Eve walked in the presence of God's glory in the garden. They don't fear God. They don't endure in the garden forever.
John Bevere:Why have we lost 30,000,000? Because we haven't taught the holy healthy fear of God that matures us. That's why I'm so passionate about this message. It's my hopes, Pastor Matt, that every pastor in the United States captures this. I don't care if they say my name, they don't need to.
John Bevere:I hope they capture it and they teach the healthy aspect of the fear of the Lord, because it will bless people. The greatest blessings in my life have come because God brought me in to understand the fear of the Lord. It really is his treasure he's given us to bring us into his greatest blessing and presence.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I think, you know, I've heard your talk now 3 times. I'm halfway through your book. I just think and if you're saying why should I why should I get this book because what you do so well is how you split positional holiness versus behavioral holiness. And so I remember years ago, I was counseling a young man in our church right after the 2 the 2 towers fell on 911, and he was in New York.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And he was just, you know, struggling as a young man, sinning. And he was always wrapped up in, did I lose my salvation? So he never graduated from positional holiness to behavioral holiness. And his issue was, look, you're sinning. And so what you're asking is, does that undo, you know, not you, but him, does that undo what Christ said on the cross?
Matthew Stephen Brown:No. But it's where David says, when David sends in the Psalms, do not take thy Holy Spirit from me, his fear was the separation from God, that closeness. And so if you're listening, this book, I think really spells that out and it clears, John, a lot of confusion on the issue and you do it so well. Let's talk 24 books. Okay.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm a little jealous. You know, I've written 2. So we got a lot of writers at Sandals Church and I told you this, writing a book is not easy. Like your wife right now is going through some anguish writing a book just with the the, editing process. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:The editing process. And that's maddening. You've done this 24 times. So speak to the person who hasn't done it one time, but they're trying. How can you encourage them?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I mean, I when I was with you, for your wife's birthday, you were you had another book. It's black with an x on it.
John Bevere:Yeah. It's called Multiply Your God
Matthew Stephen Brown:with 10. Multiply.
John Bevere:There we go.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Couldn't think of it. My mind went blank. So you were just doing that book, and now there's another one. And it just, so how do you encourage the person who feels like, like you in the nineties, God was stirring something in their heart, and maybe they have something to write. So what would you say to them?
John Bevere:Well, what most people don't know is my absolute worst subject in high school was English and creative writing Come
Matthew Stephen Brown:on now.
John Bevere:And language. I scored 370 on the SAT.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. And That's a low.
John Bevere:For those
Matthew Stephen Brown:who don't know my
John Bevere:travels, I've only met 2 human beings that scored lower than me, and one guy guessed on all the answers because he was so angry. It would take me 3 hours to write a 1 page paper.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
John Bevere:Now, I'm going to be really, really transparent on this. If you would've looked at me in 1989, said, you're gonna write books. They're gonna be in the tens of millions. They're gonna be in a 129 languages all over the world. Right?
John Bevere:I would've laughed you out of the room. I said, boy, you are delusional. And yet, how how funny that God will do that. So I remember when he spoke to me in 1990 one and said, I want you to write. I I laughed.
John Bevere:I thought, God, you just have so many kids now. You're getting us mixed up with one another. You don't want me to write. Just talk to my English teachers. And there was no response.
John Bevere:So I took his no response as an agreement to my rebuttal. So I go 10 months. And 10 months later, 2 women come up to me from 2 different states in America, and they say the same words. They said, if you don't write what God's giving you to write, he'll give the messages to somebody else, and one day, you'll stand in judgment for it.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Wow.
John Bevere:And the second woman from the state of Texas said it 2 weeks after the first woman from Florida, the fear of God hit me. And I remember getting out a notebook piece of paper, and I'm this this is what I'm gonna recommend. I got a Sharpie and I wrote contract on the top. I wrote a contract with God. I said, I think you're making a huge mistake, basically.
John Bevere:You got much better writers. Yeah. I don't know how to write. I need grace. Now, I didn't even understand in 1991 that grace is not just God's forgiveness, but it's His empowerment.
John Bevere:And I signed that contract, and I remember I tried to dictate it, then I tried to write it on a notebook, and everything's epic epically failing. I had all my my cassette tapes, and we gotta go back. This is this is prehistoric times. Okay? So, I had them all transcribed.
John Bevere:I tried doing it. I felt this like I was gonna throw up, dictating it, everything. Finally, I got I bought a a the laptops had just come out. There was only 25,000, I think, memory on this one that I bought, and I taught myself how to type. And I started getting up to 50, 60 words a minute.
John Bevere:Well, what I discovered, Matt, is that I couldn't keep up with what was coming. It was coming so fast. And I realize, I mean every book I've written, 1 third of the book I'd never thought of or taught before in my entire life. It came. It's such a unique way of meeting with God.
John Bevere:Now, how do I practically write? I meet people that say they go away for 3 days and write a book. Mhmm. And I just sit there and my jaw drops and I say, how do you do it? I approach it.
John Bevere:Now I I want you to understand what I'm sharing is the way Yeah. It works through me. Other people are different.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:So I want everybody to please hear that first. Yes. K. I've never had an outline. In all 24 books, I just sit down and start typing.
John Bevere:Mhmm. Okay? I suggest if you really are a teacher, you have an outline.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:But that's just not me. But here's the secret, and I think this is If I can give anybody out there that's listening secret sauce, this is my secret sauce. What I do is I write a 1,000 words a day.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
John Bevere:So what I I get a paper calendar, and usually I know a book is gonna take me 4 months to write. In those 4 months, because a typical trade book is 60 to 65000 words. So in those 4 months, I find 15 to 20 days, and I put a pencil pencil number up to 20 on that month, the next month, the next month, and my rule is when I get up after I pray and read the scripture, I have to write my 1,000 words before I can do one thing with the office or anything else that day. So I know when that calendar has that number on it, until about 10 o'clock in the morning, I'm virtually unavailable, because I'm usually up about 5, 5:30. Right?
John Bevere:So when I write that first 1,000 words, I literally just vomit on the on the computer. It just I don't care about sentence structure. I don't care about paragraphs. I just because it's coming, I I throw it on there. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:After I get to that thousand, that was the easy one. The next day I come back, my next writing day, and I go back and shape that thousand. So I want you to see, like, we've got a block of wood, like an 8 by 8 block of wood, and now I'm an artist carving a statue like what you've got back here. I'm going to start out with the arms, the big arms, the the the torso, and and that's my first day of edits. So my first day, I spit out 1,000 words, I still have a block of wood.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:Now I come and do the general shape.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
John Bevere:What that does is that refreshes, but it also gave me at least 24 hours for the next 1,000 to cook, because I'm thinking about what I wrote during that the day and thoughts start coming up. And so I edit that first 1,000, and I write and I and then now I vomit again on the next 1,000. Yeah. So then the 3rd day on the calendar, I come back. Now I'm tightening it up.
John Bevere:I'm starting to put the little ribs on that thing. Yeah. Right? And then I do the second one where I'm doing more the shape, and the third one, I'm vomiting again. Right?
John Bevere:That's so good. Yeah. And so then the 4th day, I come in, now I'm putting the fine detail, and I'll go over a chapter 8 to 12 times before I'm satisfied
Matthew Stephen Brown:with it. Okay.
John Bevere:But it's easier it sounds harder, but it's easier than it is because you start realizing the flow. So then I'll do that. Once I get in the first chapter, I'll usually spend literally several days on, 2 weeks usually. Okay. Just for chapter 1, because I know chapter 1 is so important to set the reader up, to get them excited about the book to come in.
John Bevere:So I do put a lot more time on chapter 1, then I just start writing, and I'll feel like when I'm halfway and at 30,000, what I do is I go back and read the whole thing again, and you'd be amazed at how much you change.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:Well, that gives me the mindset to now go for the next second half of the book. Then I get to the second to last chapter, and I go back and read the whole thing again. And now you'd be amazed how many more edits you're gonna get. Now I'm really ready for the second to last and last chapter because that's where you're landing the plane. And now reading through that gives me the ability to do it.
John Bevere:Now, is it a time commitment? Yeah, it's 400 hours. And that's why when you spread it, in my opinion, over the 4 months, you don't there's writer's fatigue. And if you're sitting there and doing it in 3 days, I challenge the quality of what you're saying. Yeah.
John Bevere:It just like, okay, if I if I read if I'm doing my read through the Bible in 1 year, and I miss 3 days of reading, I then read 4 days on the 4th day. I'm I am not going to get out of scripture
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
John Bevere:What I would have had I done it a little bit each of those 3 days.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I agree.
John Bevere:Because it's little by little, line by line, here here a little, there a little, and that's the way we function, I believe, as human beings the best. Mhmm. And so I would advise if somebody wants to do it, it's not going away and getting in a cabin and writing. I think it's more of a consistency that we hold fast to and it becomes our top priority. Like our whole staff knows when Lisa and I go into writing, basically they can't even contact us until we give them permission.
John Bevere:And that to me is the secret, I believe, of writing a good book. And the other thing is, has God called you to write a book? Now don't get me wrong. There's a lot of people that are called to preach. Excuse me.
John Bevere:Let me say it like this. We're all supposed to preach. We're all ambassadors of the kingdom. But, Matt, there's a calling on your life to be a pastor.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
John Bevere:If I just said tomorrow, I'm gonna be a pastor like Matt Brown. I don't think I would have anything like what you've you've done. You've done it because there's grace on your life to do it. Okay? Now I am called to pastor people.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:I pastor my family, I pastor my friends in the sense of I I care for them, right? I I I feed them, I protect them. So I believe everybody should write, but the question is, who Books are like people, who are they called to? Like I've written books that I know are called to entrepreneurs. I've written books that I knew were called to the body of Christ at large.
John Bevere:So you gotta know who your book's called to. You gotta know first of all, you gotta know if you're called to write.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That's a good word.
John Bevere:2nd, who is it called to? And then you're not gonna get discouraged when it doesn't become top 10 on Amazon.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:Alright? And then thirdly, don't put that kind of time and be like, I've watched people. I look. I've been in ministry 40 years. Do you know I've looked at 2 senior pastors, lead pastors and said, you need to be in the marketplace?
John Bevere:1 got mad at me, didn't speak to me again. The other one did it and came back 3 years later and said, I am so, so happy. I thought I was loving and serving Jesus by being a senior pastor. I realized God's called me to the marketplace, and they were flourishing.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That's great.
John Bevere:So I believe in callings very strongly. So if you're gonna write and you're and God hasn't told you to write, write for your children, write for your grandchildren. Yeah. That's a good word. For your friends.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
John Bevere:Because writing never goes away.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
John Bevere:Writing endures. It goes to the next generation. Mhmm. I know grandparents, couple of them, you know what they do? They go through the Bible once a year, and they write prayers in that Bible to their grandchildren, and that one grandchild is what they spent the whole year reading that Bible on, and I think that's wonderful.
John Bevere:That's a form of writing that's going to be generational, but if I'm not called to write and publish a book, I'll be honest with you, I don't wanna put 4, 500 hours into that and and and not be called to do it.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. That's man such a great word. So, if you're listening don't be discouraged if your book doesn't hit top 10 and pray that my book breaks the top million. You know, because, you know, on Amazon, you can you can literally see right where your book is and so
John Bevere:I'm so excited about your book. I mean, you told me about 2 chapters yesterday. And tomorrow, I've got some time off, and I plan on reading those chapters immediately because Yeah. You grabbed my heart when you told me about them yesterday. Yeah.
John Bevere:So I hope your book does really well.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I do too. And, you know, you never know. And so so here's my hope for my book is that people will well let me just tell you this story. So my wife and I have these good friends and he is of another religion. I try to be really careful because he, I think they listen from time to time.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So, but he's not Christian and his wife is battling mental illness and I'm losing. And we went out to dinner with him and she just shared her heart in that when you're, when you're watching the wheels come off of somebody mentally, it's really hard. And this is a competent person. This is a professional person. And it's just, you're watching a human being disintegrate.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I just said, look, I don't know what's going on with you, but I know who does. And his name is Jesus. I said, would it be okay we're at dinner. Would it be okay if I prayed over you for healing in the name of Jesus? And my friend who is not Christian, I mean, he has some definitive opinions on Jesus and he is not the Messiah to my friend.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I said, would it be okay if I laid hands on you? And I'm looking at his wife. He pops up off the couch. He comes over, lays hands on his wife with me to pray in the name of Jesus. And this is why in California nobody's worried about going to hell.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Nobody's worried about heaven. They're living their lives. But when they're sick, when they're dying, when they're divorced, when they can't pay their rent and they need a miracle from heaven, they will listen to Jesus. And what I tell our people is, look, I don't know what God is gonna do, but I know what He can't do. And that's where my faith is.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And we prayed for this woman and I'm watching my friend sob, stop, because he said yes to the hope that Jesus might be real and God will work with it, right? The faith of the mustard seed. And so, so that's my hope, John, is that evangelism is so hard in California, but when people are hurting, man, Jesus is right there. And there's a reason He did miracles first. And so I said in the book, before He was ever known as the Messiah, He was known as the miracle worker.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And there's a reason for that because it opens hearts. And I said this, miracles don't give answers, but they do demand bigger questions. What on earth is going on? And so, so just pray for us in California. I'm hoping that this is a book that people can give to their non church friends.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, man. There's this guy Jesus, and he I believe he hears my prayers. I believe he has the power. And what I would say is if you need a miracle, John, what do you have to lose? Like, I I don't know where the
John Bevere:risk is. The people that get healed quicker than anybody else, historically, for me, are the unbelievers.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, I know.
John Bevere:I mean, I just sit there and laugh and go, God, here I'm gonna watch you do this again. It's because God loves those people so deeply. And I believe miracles are signs, and signs don't point to themselves, they point to something else. Amen. They point to Jesus.
John Bevere:And you know, Matt, I'm gonna say this, because I feel like being in ministry 40 years, I feel like I've I've come to that place where I'm I'm kinda like a dad. Right? I see, and I think I'm gonna say something that you know, but I wanna say it on this podcast. You're not only a pastor, you have a tremendous evangelistic gift on your life. Thank you.
John Bevere:And I wanna encourage you to pray how to give voice to that evangelist in you on platforms outside of your church.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you, brother. I'll be praying
John Bevere:for that. Because you he wins souls is wise. There is a wisdom on on bringing people into the kingdom. I know I've told my team, hey, I like to preach, but I love to do altar calls.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes, I know. I've been a part of them.
John Bevere:I mean, I I got asked to speak to, there were a 1,000 a 1,000 business leaders coming into a conference, and this was 2 years ago, and it was gonna be at the M Hotel in Las Vegas, and the, the the guys running this big conference just loved our books, and he said, would you come in? So about 4 weeks out he called me, and he said, John, can you not use scripture? And I said, I can if you want me to, but I said, it won't be near as effective. I said, you gotta let me be me.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, amen. I love that about you. I love that. He said,
John Bevere:okay. So here he goes. They paid to come to this conference. I get up and I start preaching. And he gave me 50 minutes.
John Bevere:And, I mean, you could see the people were so angry. We've paid to come to this conference, and you put a preacher up in front of me. I mean, you could just see it. Right? Well, it it start getting stronger and stronger and stronger as far as how I felt like it was connecting with them.
John Bevere:And so at the end, 200 of those 1,000 business leaders stood up to receive Jesus Christ as lord, master, and savior. And it wasn't a light altar call. Well, after the conference, this guy went up to the to the guy who ran the whole conference. He said, I was so angry when that guy got up and I realized you put a preacher in front of us. He said, I want to get up, my legs wouldn't work.
John Bevere:Amen. He said, I went to get up again, my legs wouldn't work. He said, I tried a third time, my legs wouldn't work. He said, by the time my anger subsided, I started listening to him. And when he called to receive Jesus Christ as lord, I stood up.
John Bevere:He said, my life is so changed. And I thought how interesting. God is so so interested in reaching people that He would literally stick a guy in his chair so he could listen, so he could hear. And I I think there's a lot of people. I think there's so many people in the valley of decision.
John Bevere:I think you've got enemies of the cross. They're actually they're they're they're they're like, I'm I'm an enemy of g. But then there are so many people, I think, and this is the majority of the people in California that are in this valley of decision. Yeah. And they need somebody who's wise and somebody who's real and somebody genuine and somebody who's anointed to tell them.
John Bevere:So I just wanna encourage you.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, thank you, brother. Alright, John. We're gonna end this episode here, and we're gonna be jumping in next week with some questions from our listeners. So don't miss, the part b to this interview next week on The Debrief.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. My book, Everyday a Miracle, comes out March 5th. Please preorder today. It is a book about a journey towards trusting God who heals inside and out. Thanks for watching the episode.