S2: E29: Traveling While Trans, The Baggage Fee for Biological Bias

Show Notes

Being in an airport is always a stressful time- we've all had moments traveling when we had to hurry through security when you notice your running late to your flight. Traveling for transgender individuals however, comes with an additional layer of anxiety that many cisgender individuals take for granted.

In the frst part of this two-part series, Isaac and Cyn are joined by Simply Good Form's own Emma Stanley (She/Her) who is a frequent flyer and an expert at 'boymoding' to ensure she can get through security without any hassle. Emma shares with her experiences with border security officers, traveling to foreign countries and provides advice to fellow trans travellers who may be second guessing their upcoming trip.

Hey, Cis! is a beyond binary conversation in being a better human.

We are about current affairs and gender-based issues affecting trans and non-binary youth, students and adults within our Maritime community.

We take on difficult topics; (and this week it is a difficult topic), breaking us out of the binary, smashing stigma and fostering greater connection between our cisgender community and trans, gender creative and non-binary community.

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Credits

Guest: Emma Stanley (She/Her): [e-mail] 

Hey, Cis! is hosted by Cyn Sweeney (She/Her) and Isaac Cook (He/They).

Cyn is a cis, straight beyond binary educator and author focusing on 'beyond binary' inclusion and breaking heteronormative and cisnormative practices.  As a storyteller and community writer Cynthia is inspired by peoples stories - and listening fully. In her late 20s she felt insulted to be described as a 'bull in china shop,' when it came to pushing barriers and cutting through red tape. More than two decades on, she realizes it's served as one of her best assets in role-modelling for her 3 children and family.

Born and raised in Nova Scotia, Isaac Cook is a transgender, non-binary, queer person with a passion for making change. With a degree in Linguistics and Criminology, Isaac has more than six years of communications, marketing and web development experience with a particular passion forSTEM- focused and non-profit organizations. Outside of his work with Cyn at Simply Good Form Inc., Isaac enjoys cooking, travelling, astrology and hanging out with his dogs Aspen and Timber.

Produced and edited in-house.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/simply-good-form/ 

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/SimplyGoodForm 

MUSIC: Hey, Cis! thanks musical artist Craymo for our intro/extro song: Be Myself

Written by: Craig Stephen Raymo/Brandon Jarrett/Joshua Daniel Hershfield (c) (p) 2015 Craymo Music, BMI/Moho Music, ASCAP

Website: http://www.Craymo.com

Creators & Guests

Host

Cyn Sweeney

Co-Host Hey, Cis! Long-clawed mama bear. Curious social explorer with rose-coloured glasses. Storyteller and accidental entrepreneur. Champion for equity, inclusion and belonging. Not neutral.

Host

Isaac Cook

Co-Host Hey, Cis! Linguistic fact-finder, digitally-inspired. Trans, non-binary, queer person with a passion for making change. Elevated home-chef and 'Best in Show'

Guest

Emma Stanley

Show regular and world traveller. EDIA educator and a queer trans woman who's lived and transitioned across several countries and cultures.

What is Hey, Cis!?

A beyond binary journey to being a better human. Join our head-on conversation about current affairs and gender-based issues affecting transgender and non-binary youth, students, and adults within Canada.

Hosts Cyn (she/her) and Isaac (he/they) give arts, culture, doers & dreamers a beyond binary twist in this Atlantic Canadian conversational talk show; breaking down cis-normative bias, smashing stigma, and fostering a greater connection between cisgender and trans, and non-binary communities.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Hey, Cis!

From coast-to-coast-to-coast, we're bridging
the gap between the cisgender and transgender

community, creating meaningful dialogue and
space to learn and grow.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
Join us as we connect with our community,
break down tough conversations, and get

comfortable being better humans.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
At this point, I'm already really panicking
because.

Um. I'm not just thinking, oh God, I'm going
to have trouble getting into the border.

I'm thinking, this person thinks that I'm
committing a federal offense of of using

someone else's passport.

This is terrifying.

I'm like, I'm functionally being accused of
a major crime right now.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
So today on Hey, Cis!

Isaac and I are super excited to have one of
our very own joining us, Emma Stanley, who

is.

Speaker4:
Hello!

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
We are very excited to have you here, Emma.

Emma's been working with Simply Good Form
since fall of 2021, and now she is taking her

show on the road and going to be working
with us from another part of the globe.

And we are here to talk about travel.

Uh, traveling.

What? You know, what it's like if you are a
member of the trans community, the non-binary

community, what barriers exist?

What do you have to think about that the
average cis traveler just never has to think

about. And with your vast experience in the
past and this upcoming trip, we're excited to

hear some of your thoughts on that, Emma.

So welcome.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
I am super pleased, uh, to be here and bring
my vast experience to bear on this

complicated topic.

Um, hi, I'm Emma Stanley.

I work with SGF and I use she her pronouns.

Um. I have been traveling, uh, pretty
consistently around the world since 2009.

Um, and in the past 4 or 5 years, I've been
sort of traveling while trans and traveling

while fair. Uh, and, yeah, I'm that's what
I'm here to talk about.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
I think going back a little bit before we
talk about your, uh, your trip coming up to,

uh, to Thailand, um, you have kind of a bit
of a checkered background of, uh, potential,

uh, arrests at, uh, border crossings or
challenging situations, which maybe isn't

uncommon, for some trans people.

And maybe it's something people get really
nervous about.

Do you want to talk a little bit about, uh,
maybe some of your experiences?

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Yeah, we can, um.

Yeah, traveling while queer can be a
challenge.

And traveling while your body and identity
don't match your paperwork is terrifying at

times. Um.

Now, it does have to be said that I have,
uh, just to give some context, my background

is pretty privileged in, like, every other
area.

Um, I am Caucasian.

I'm educated.

Uh, at the time, I was married, um, so I had
advantages that an enormous number of people

don't have. And so I was, in the end, able
to sort of extricate myself from these

situations. But it was never me getting me
out of these problems.

It was people that I knew.

And I think that was the scariest part for
me.

Um, it was only by the grace of who I knew
that this didn't become a bigger problem.

Um, so I have been, uh, presenting feminine
for four years now.

I'm pretty widely, um, but, um, because of
some other things which I will get into

later, I promise.

Um, I have been unable to change my
paperwork until a few months ago, and so I

was traveling again with a body and
an identity that didn't match my official

identification. So when I go to airports, I
have a really specific set of clothes and

mannerisms that I project.

Uh, I basically dress really androgynously
big hoodies, big jeans, um, and uh, when I

still owned a binder, I would wear it when,
uh, when I started needing one, uh, to make

sure that I looked at least similar to my
identification.

And I thought that that would be enough.

And it was funny. I had my hair tucked up
into a hat.

I just tried to masculinize a bit.

Uh, we we usually just call it boy molding.

Um. And I was really surprised when it
didn't work.

So I was coming into Thailand.

Um. Because I had just changed a visa.

So the problem with that is that I was not
traveling for pleasure.

I was.

Out of the country to, uh, I had to leave
the country, go to an embassy, change my

paperwork, and re-enter the country.

And because I was actually working while
this was happening, it all needed to happen

on a weekend. So it needed to happen in two
days.

Uh, so in the.

Uh, 48 hours of the weekend.

I had been traveling or waiting in consulate
lines for 40 of them at this point.

I was coming back into the country.

I'd gotten all of my paperwork signed, and I
was, uh, very tired.

Uh, but but relaxed.

Uh, so I went up to the counter.

Give the guy my ticket, my passport.

He's checking my visa and he turns to the
first page, sees the picture, sees the

information there, and just looks me in the
face and says, this isn't you.

And what do you do right now?

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
Be pretty scary.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Yeah. Um, you can't argue with border guards.

You you. Yeah.

It is is a really terrible thing to say at
this point.

Um, and I am really lucky that he spoke as
much English as he did, because at the time,

I spoke no Thai.

Um. And.

So at least, at very least, we could even
have this conversation.

Uh, so I sort of looked at him and, and not
really thinking about it, said, yeah, it is.

So, um, for those of you who don't know,
never disagree with border guards.

Um, they they are not fans of it.

Now, he was not a bad person.

He was super calm about the whole thing, but
he was pretty insistent that this was not me.

And. At this point, I'm already really
panicking because.

Um. I'm not just thinking, oh God, I'm going
to have trouble getting into the border.

I'm thinking, this person thinks that I'm
committing a federal offense of of using

someone else's passport.

This is terrifying.

I'm like, I'm functionally being accused of
a major crime right now in a foreign country.

Uh, and.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
You're exhausted 40 hours in and.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
And and I'm exhausted.

So this is the nerves are way, way up.

Eventually, I kind of calmed down and
realized that, um, the other lucky thing is

that I'm pretty paranoid, um, alongside my
hoodie and my hat and, uh, my my

mannerisms. I also have five separate pieces
of of identification.

I took out, uh, two driver's licenses from,
uh, the countries I'd been in previously.

A credit card, um, all in my old name.

And, uh, he didn't believe any of them.

It wasn't actually, until I called my then
wife over, uh, to vouch for me, uh, which was

tricky because she had already gone through.

And they don't let you go back through those
lines.

So she had to sort of shout over the, uh,
um, over the turnstiles that, yeah, I know

them. It's fine.

And, uh, at that point, uh, I was allowed to
go in.

And. Yeah.

It's just, uh, amazing to me that we still
have a system where there was no way for me

to prove who I was.

We insist, or people seem to be insisting on
these documents that will prove who we are.

And they're supposed to look like this.

I've had friends from work.

Coworkers? Uh, say that.

We shouldn't allow, uh, changing gender on,
uh, on official documents because, you know,

you could use it to fake people out.

And yet this document that is supposed to be
very much me doesn't have my fingerprint

anywhere in it.

It has no.

Uh, objective information with which I can
prove this is me anywhere in it.

And it was a real eye opener that we trust
these documents and these systems, uh, so

much that when they fail, we have no
recourse.

This was purely.

Is this guy going to trust me or am I going
to go to immigration jail?

Um, so yeah, that was that was really
terrifying and and genuinely an eye opener.

Uh.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah. I was just going to jump in, uh, really
quick.

Uh, um, so just to just to confirm as well.

So where is your paperwork at the time?

Did it have was it the sex defined as male,
or was it kind of like he looked at the photo

and was like, this doesn't look like, you.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Know, my, um, my passport at the time had my
old name.

Uh, gotcha. And and my old identity, which
was, which was male.

Um, and apparently I pass way better than I
thought I did to the point where I can't even

fake it anymore.

Um, yeah.

And it just. Uh, kind of quietly insisted
this.

This is not you.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
So if you didn't have all of that ID like,
what do you think?

I mean, I like what do you think would have
happened?

Or you just probably don't even want to
think about what would have happened.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Oh, I've thought about it.

I was I mean, I was thinking about it at the
time because, um, I suffer from ADHD, and

that means, uh, my plans to be prepared, uh,
don't often actually happen.

So I knew that I had intended to put all of
this identification in my bag.

And it turned out this time I had.

And that was really lucky.

But while I was digging for it, I'm
thinking, okay, if this if I have in fact

forgotten to put this in, what am I going to
do?

And my next idea was to call my boss,
because then I can attach myself to a company

and say they can call and sort of confirm my
identity.

Um, but that can't happen in a line up.

So that would have meant, uh, finding a
space in the airport where I can, uh, make a

request to call my boss.

Um, and even that depends on a whether
they're going to let me do that.

And B, uh, the I'm just, again, very lucky.

I was working for a fairly large company
that they probably would have recognized the

name of. And my boss has he knows me.

He's been working there for 20 years.

They will they will trust his word on this
thing.

Um, and again, it's where the rest of my
privilege is really protected me from this

one really vulnerable moment.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
And remind, I say, just repeat again.

So what border were you crossing?

You were going from, from Thailand or you're
going into Thailand from.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
I was returning to Thailand, from Laos.

Um, they when you change visa paperwork, you
almost always need to leave the country to do

that so that you're processed with that
paperwork when you come in.

And of course, Covid has changed most of
those rules, but at the time, this was

certainly the case.

Speaker5:
Yeah, right.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
And I wonder because like, well, it's
interesting because, uh, Forbes uh, they

printed in uh, 2021, uh, some of the top
like no go zones for LGBTQ plus people.

And now can Canada actually rated the safe
out of the top five places, um, for

traveling. But, um, on this no go zone list
was, you know, Nigeria came in at number one

and Saudi Arabia, but then you have Malaysia
and Malawi are up there as being really

unsafe. Um, yeah.

Travel, which is in sort of that neck of the
woods where you're traveling.

But for for trans people in Thailand, um,
and that is, is quite safe, isn't it, if you

once you get there.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Yes, absolutely.

It's, it's been amazing.

And in fact, um, the company that I was with
was really good about it.

Uh, there was never any, uh, weirdness
there.

And, uh, in a sort of putting their money
where their mouth is, they made sure that

when I did need to do visa changes, I was
not sent to Malaysia to do them.

Um. And there are a few countries in the
area where if you live there, it's safe.

But the rules on the books are not
necessarily safe.

Um. So Myanmar was not a top choice.

It was the story that I heard on the ground
was, it's fine to be there, but don't cross

the border. And I have no idea how seriously
to take those.

It really depends on the border guards and
what mood they're in on any particular day.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah, I think I think that's a very, very
good point because even, um, you know, and

not a lot of folks, uh, realize this too.

So Canada has what's the formal terms of it?

I think it's like travel advisories, Canada
travel advice and advisories.

And typically in that document, in that huge
page of all the many countries in the world,

they'll list kind of what they advise you do
or not do.

And in there there is a section for to LGBTQ
plus people and you know, they'll rank it

will not necessarily rank it, but they'll
mention even to like hand-holding or like

public displays of affection or, you know,
sleeping in the same bed as someone with the

the same sex. But it's it's really
interesting to look at how governments,

especially in particular Canada, breaks down
that perspective of like, foreign countries.

Um, so if anyone ever wants it's definitely
not light reading by any means, because

they're massive documents to talk about
anything from potential illnesses, infections

such like that in other countries.

But it's definitely a good reference point,
uh, and a baseline for people to get if they

are traveling.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
Well. And it's important to know because so
like, for instance, uh, the African country,

as I mentioned, um, Malawi, I think, uh,
they had written that same sex, acts

could result in 14 years in prison for, for
men and five years for women.

And, you know, places like that would be
surprising.

So for myself, as a parent of a trans child,
um, you hear, you know, before Covid,

families taking off and going to Jamaica, I
had a friend that had a destination wedding

in Jamaica, um, which we weren't at anyway,
but, uh, it's not safe for trans people.

Uh, Jamaica is on that list, and there's a
lot of Caribbean places as well.

So if you think if you go there, um, so even
if you were, as you mentioned, boycotting,

which I'd never heard before, or you could
pass, um, if you get injured or if you need

hospital or you need support, um, and that
could become very difficult, uh, for you

even, I guess if you're a family traveling
down to the States, you know, like just

crossing the border here from Canada to the
states, you know, if you have a trans child,

don't get sick down there or break your leg
in certain states like Texas and several

others. But, um, there's a lot of
considerations, isn't there?

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Yeah, it definitely is a lens through which
you you experience the world.

You you have to make every choice with this
one more qualifier, um, of is it going to be

safe? And.

When you get to a country, the culture of
the country inside it and the laws that are

on the books are always going to be
different.

Um, certainly the Middle East is is pretty
famous for being not accepting.

But when you actually live there and I have,
uh.

It's. They don't care nearly as much as you
think they do.

The trick is that they don't want to hear
about it or interact with it, but they don't

ask either. They it's just kind of a closed
topic.

It's actually pretty safe unless somebody
finds out.

And then rather than deal with, as you say,
some.

Uh, consequences. That can be extremely
harsh.

They'll usually. The company that I work
for.

Someone found out one of the teachers was
gay, and he was quietly flown out of the

country that night.

They said a student, uh, started a rumor.

Doesn't matter if it's true.

Pack your bags.

Wow. Uh, and his his life just came to a
halt.

He had plans.

He had a job, he had an apartment, and it
all just kind of went away.

And this was the, like, much more low key,
merciful version of this thing.

This was like, we're going to get you out of
the country so that nothing bad happens to

you. Um, so yeah, it can be really quite
scary.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah, yeah.

And I just want to jump back a little bit
to, um, to to your experience at the, at the

border because I know, um, quite often when,
when there's any issue, border guards like to

have their immediate reaction be a body
search.

And that's typically when they.

Yeah, figure out it's a put in very PG
terms, um, what's happening.

And um, I remember one time I was going into
Guatemala and everyone was getting body

search and it had no distinction.

Mhm. Uh, if you had potentially something or
if you were pulled aside and I remember

because they had two lines and then one was
a, you know, a masculine presenting guard,

the other one was a feminine presenting
guard.

And they, you know, ushered, you know, women
to feminine and then masculine to the man.

And I remember staying there and I was like,
hmm.

I go, where do I go?

Um, and I kind of I eventually.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Was out the least.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah, yeah. And eventually, like, you know,
my heart was telling me to go towards the

feminine guard, but the male guard just, you
know, grabbed me and was like, pop up.

And then like, as soon as he got to, like,
here, he was like, oh.

And I was like, it's fine.

Like, let's not make a big deal out of it.

Like, I'm not gonna like, scream.

We're good. I don't have anything on me.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Um, I will become.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah, exactly. We'll just act like nothing
happened.

But he he felt bad.

Yeah, yeah, he felt he felt genuinely bad.

Um, but it was, it was just kind of like a
funny experience because, like, even

non-trans people have that.

I can't tell you the amount of times of,
like, butch presenting people that I know who

have been like, ushered towards like a male
or masculine presenting guard.

And they're like, I'm not comfortable with
you touching my body.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
So any anyone who's not presenting.

In, in a really heteronormative way is going
to cause a certain amount of confusion at

those stations.

Um.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
If you're traveling with people that don't
know you're trans, like, what if you're

traveling with friends and they don't know
that you're trans and you're in that

situation like, you know, that's another,
you know.

Speaker4:
Surprise.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
But this is interesting because Emma and I,
we had a conversation, Isaac, kind of behind

the scenes like a couple of weeks ago, which
made us like made me think deeper about wow,

travel and that. But what about so you're
not, like, in a body search, but you go

through the that, you know, like that
scanner, that body scanner that goes up.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
And down like the turnstile, like.

Speaker4:
Yeah, what if.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
You're wearing a packer, like, say you're a
teen or you're wearing a pack or an STP,

like, would that like, would that be a
concern that a parent or, or just a person

that is wearing something like that, would
that would that be kind of something that you

might want to think about before you travel
or.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
I don't I don't want to jump in here, but I
don't I don't know what all it detects.

So like for instance, like I have a heart
monitor and they've never asked me ever about

it. And I'm like, it could be okay if Canada
Border Security is listening right now.

It is not a bomb, but it could be a bomb,
you know, like it could be a bomb.

Um, I'm not flying with any bombs, I
promise.

Like, you know, um, but, you know, like.

And I've never had anyone pull me, pull me
aside for it or, like, inquire about it so I

don't like I think with those ones in
particular, I mean, within Canada at least, I

think it only detects like certain types of
metals and substances.

So if it's like a liquid or like a metal,
but don't quote me on that.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
It's an interesting thing.

I know I've read an article, um, that it was
picking up everything.

Um, and this was pretty early on.

In the days of them, this would have been
like in the, um, in the mid-aughts.

So somewhere between 2001 and 2010.

Um, so it would have been when I first
started traveling because.

Uh. We were always we were.

We were curious about them because they were
still sort of coming out and.

Yeah, I have gotten caught by that.

When you go through them, there is a a
gender button or a sexy button that they can

press that will ignore certain
characteristics, like underwires.

Um, if they press the lady button, and if
you are wearing the wrong underclothes or

having the wrong bits.

Uh, some of them will go off.

I remember going through Frankfurt, Germany.

Um, this would have been five years ago.

Easily. And when I went through, it pinged.

Um. And at that point I was presenting
female all the time, but I hadn't had surgery

yet. And I said, okay, just try the other
button, I'll go through again.

And it went through and I was fine.

So it, uh, it was fine.

And the border guards, you know, they
apologized.

They were being really cool about it, but,
uh, but yeah, it they did need to press the

other button for it not to, to go off.

So I'm not sure what they did.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah. That's so weird that that was like a
cyst.

And do you know approximately like, what
year that was.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
When we lived in Oman.

So yeah. Past 5 to 6 years tops.

So post 2015 would be the best I could do.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
I guess it depends on the airport and the
size and all that our little Halifax airport

might not, uh, might, might not have that
capability.

Maybe it does, you know.

Yeah. Uh.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Well, I just find it such a weird.

A weirdly specific function to have, because
also, like.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
I've invented a machine that.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Checks it will detect boobies.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
How the hell did that get past marketing?

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah, exactly. Who was like, I need a machine
that will tell me if a passenger has boobs.

Speaker4:
And, like, I.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Suppose we should be lucky they haven't put
them outside bathrooms at this point.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
So honestly, listen, we don't.

We can't put a pass like Texas or some of
those states that are outlawing this stuff,

but, um, but yeah, like it that, like, blows
my mind too, because like, like even like

there are, like heavier built men that
definitely like, I would probably have a

similar breast shape to them.

Like I'm like, would that detect like, what
is it only like bottom genitalia.

Like what?

Anyways, I know no one can answer that
question, but I'm just like throwing things

out there because now I want to I want to
dig into it.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
And, you know, here we could actually throw
it out if there's any listeners out there who

have any, you know, any comments, any
insight on this or have anything to add, any.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Cbsa officers out there?

Yeah.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
Email us at Hey, Cis! to connect.

Is it [e-mail]

it's our brand new email.

So [e-mail].

Or you can DM us on social media.

But we'd love to hear like other people's
experiences traveling.

And if they've uh, if they've had their bits
checked out while they're going through the

border about that.

Jesus. Uh, so let's pivot a little bit
because this is going to be part of like a

two part series. And I'd be really curious
to hear Isaac and Emma, what you think about,

as you know, you're spending your hard
earned money, you're taking a holiday, you're

traveling. Let's like, you're staying maybe
within Canada, and you're going to like an

Airbnb or maybe like a smaller hotel, or
you're taking a tour as a same sex couple as

a trans person. And that.

What do you think? Like tourism operators?

What do you think? Like the travel industry
should be doing better to just ensure that,

you know, you're not going away from that
situation feeling like you've just spent your

money here and you didn't really get a great
vibe from from your host or from, you know,

the tour that you were taking.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
I'll put the spotlight on you first, Emma.

So. Oh, rude.

Speaker4:
Um.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
Let's see.

Vacations. Have I ever been able to afford a
vacation?

Oh, wait, I'm a millennial, so.

No, but in my dream vacation, um.

Yeah. I mean, I think it comes down to some
really basic things.

Um, just basic inclusive language.

Being inclusive as a company basically comes
down to making it so that the language and

the environment of your company isn't tailor
made for only one kind of person.

You need to look at your company a little
bit, look at the language that you use, look

at the forms and the systems that you have
in place.

And try and think outside of your own
experience to to see if those systems.

Are fit more than one kind of person.

A really simple way is like, if there's two
people in the room or if there's an

application form and it just has like a
space for husband and wife, say it's a

couples suite. Just.

Just switch it to partner.

It's not a huge deal, but it is going to
make me feel safe when I'm booking that trip.

I'm much more likely to actually book if the
language in the advertisements, and

especially in any sort of form, is
inclusive.

So language is a big part of it.

Absolutely.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah. And just to really echo on that, um, I
worked quite a few years in hospitality, most

more particularly more specifically in, in
hotels.

Um, and typically if you see two individuals
of the perceived same sex, um, most

individuals would assume that they probably
want two beds in the room.

And a lot of times if they see two people
come up, they'll automatically book people in

a two bedroom, two bedrooms.

But I think one of the biggest things is to
always ask questions, of course, within

moderation. Don't be asking them weird
questions.

Um, but don't be afraid to ask questions.

And if you do ask the wrong question, be
open to understanding their perspective and

their experiences.

And don't take one experience from one trans
or queer or two as LGBTQ or what have you,

individual or traveler, and associate it
with every other experiences of that exact

same traveler. You know, I even know
traveling agencies.

They'll they have this like mindset, like,
this is the ideal traveler.

It's typically a white, cis, straight,
middle aged man and woman who maybe have

three kids, but their kids are probably out
of the house now.

So they they build these like packages based
on that kind of perceived notion and what

these people want.

But it's important to really look outside of
that and be like, okay, who is our typical

customer? Who is our typical client?

And and who are we missing in this kind of
database and who who haven't we've been able

to actually attract to our organization or
establishment?

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
I love that. I mean, and it comes down to,
like you say, like being intentional about

it. So when you mentioned about the beds and
that like as a, as a tourism operator, you

don't have to out anybody or make anyone
feel uncomfortable.

You could just say, oh, like we have various
rooms, some have king beds, some have queen,

some have twins.

You know, what would what what what's your
preference?

What would you like?

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah. Are you looking for two beds or one?

If they want one bed. Do you want a king or
a queen?

It's it's it's pretty straightforward
questions.

But, you know, even when I was working I had
colleagues that would be like, it'd be like

two men and they'd be like, okay.

Or like they would kind of like, joke about
it.

They'd be like, oh, I'm assuming you want
two beds.

And like, the guys were like, ha ha ha.

Yeah, of course we're not snuggling.

But like, imagine if they were a couple, you
know, that could have been an uncomfortable

situation to be like, actually, we do want
one bed, you know.

So it just it just leaving it up to the
individual to, to make that distinction and

not to assume.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
But you make a really good point there and
raise a question how much of companies

behavior is based on the fact that if they
offer two straight guys one bed, they now

have a couple of really pissed off
homophobic customers to deal with?

Um, because I guarantee you that happens.

Speaker4:
Mhm. Yeah.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
You know, you get the sort of would you like
two beds or one.

What are you saying.

What? Just asking a question.

But those questions weren't okay to ask
until recently.

So there is an element to this of of
companies have to trust their customers not

to flip their lids when they don't assume
they're straight, because a lot of straight

people are used to a world that assumes that
they are straight, but never challenges that

perception. And in fact, challenging that
perception in any way was considered a

pretty, uh, like still is considered a very
serious insult.

Uh, yeah.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
I think you have to be clear on your policies
and values then as a company that, you know,

if what do you do if you have then, uh, some
customers that are upset because, you know,

they feel like, oh, no, I don't like what
you're doing.

You know, you need to be able to be
empowered to have, like, your comment, you

know, your policies there to let them know
that, hey, like, sorry, we don't tolerate you

have a problem. You know, I'd be willing to
say, look, if you have a problem, you know,

this is who we are, maybe you're going to
lose that customer.

You know, maybe. But I would like to believe
that, you know, I think the idea of

attracting and supporting a more diverse
clientele and having space for, for everybody

is, you know, is is on your it's on that's
the real agenda.

That's that value should be important to
you.

Speaker4:
Yeah. Mhm. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
Yeah. And standing behind it so that you
don't have like maybe a 17 year old working

behind the counter that has to like field
that and not feel like they're there.

Speaker4:
Yeah.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Yeah yeah a 17 year old that's probably
making $13, $14 an hour.

And the managers kind of sitting behind just
not doing anything.

So yeah it starts from the top and works its
way down, that's for sure.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
Yeah I guess too for small businesses,
tourism operators, if you are like you're

inclusive and you're, you know, you've got
that culture, you've got the education,

you're aware like you, you put the
visibility out there as well so everybody can

see it. So whether it's, you know, you
have like like a, a bracelet, a rainbow

bracelet on your water bottle or you have
like a, you know, like a little tagline on

your website, like, everyone is welcome
here.

We support a place of, you know, of human
rights for everybody.

You know, we don't stand for any kind of
discrimination, especially this blah, blah,

blah. You know, you can, you can help
people research and know how safe you are

before they even have to step in your door,
you know, or step on the premises.

Yeah.

Speaker4:
Yeah.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
That's so good.

Speaker4:
Yeah, I.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Know I'm enjoying this.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
I can't wait till you're there.

Like with a coconut drink and you're like
the CEO sharing how it, uh, how it went.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
No, it's going to be this is this is going to
be the first time I have not cross-dressed in

an airport in four years.

So that's going to be pretty wild.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
We'll be so excited to catch back up with you
then when you have landed in Thailand and

you're working with us from over there.

But to follow up on actually how.

Speaker4:
Well, thank.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
You very much for having me on and I will
talk to you guys soon.

Speaker4:
Like.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
Many, many hours again of travel and layovers
and several flights to get to your

destination. So, uh, you'll have to report
back.

Emma Stanley (She/Her):
All right, I will.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
Awesome. Thank you so much, Emma, for for
joining us today.

We appreciate you taking the time to share
all your wild stories and, uh, get some

insights on all the fun stuff.

Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):
That's all the time we have today, folks.

Thank you for joining us for another episode
of paces.

Isaac Cook (He/They):
The conversation doesn't have to stop here,
though.

If you would like to get in touch with us to
ask us a question or share your story on a

future episode, you can email us at Connect
at Simply Good forum.com, or visit us on our

website at spacex.com.