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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:01.218)
Welcome everyone to the Courageous Coach podcast. Thank you so much for being here. And today I'm joined by Jean Burke. And I'm delighted to have you here, Jean. Thank you so much for coming along and being here, being open to our conversation today. I'm looking forward to seeing where we go. And well, what I always start with is tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jean Burke (00:27.919)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Hague (00:30.723)
Change.
Jean Burke (00:31.967)
Okay, what an open question to get us going, Melissa. So I'm an executive coach and a psychotherapist by background. I work mainly with senior leaders, a lot of the time senior leaders who are working in high stakes, high pressure environments. So for example, healthcare or where there are a lot of quick and
really kind of high pressure decision making required of them on regular basis. Often in the public sector, so healthcare, social care, that sort of thing, but not exclusively. So it could be across the corporate sector as well. And I've been doing that probably for, Nion, 20 years, was in-house doing a corporate job before then, but I saw the light and came out.
and yeah, retrained in psychotherapy and as an executive coach.
Melissa Hague (01:33.934)
Okay, so I am immediately curious about I'm a psychotherapist and I'm a coach. So tell us a little bit about how those two things evolved for you, how they came together.
Jean Burke (01:48.335)
Good question. So when I left corporate life, I left it without, I suppose, a real plan. I was going to take some time out to decide what I was going to do. And what I was drawn to was training as an executive coach. And I went into it, Melissa, and experienced a training that was really enjoyable, but I just didn't think it had the depth in terms of what it required of me, the reflection.
as a practitioner, but also just the broader kind of, I suppose, psychological aspects of life, the challenges we face as human beings in general. So I kind of backpedaled from that and got interested in the whole... I was curious about psychology. I considered retraining in occupational psychology.
but I felt that would just take me back into the corporate world again. And I got really interested in the world of psychotherapy. Got hooked, did a summer course. Thought this will be interesting. It might help me in terms of my coaching development. And the rest they say is history. Before I knew it, I was signing up for a five-year program. And I was drawn to it because of the depth of the training more than anything else. At the time I was training, I just didn't feel that
the world of coaching had the depth, in particular around the whole self-reflection, understanding yourself better and that kind of mantra of you've got to know yourself first before you can support or be of help to anyone else. And it was after that then that I went back into coaching, having spent many years working as a psychotherapist and felt I could come at it through a different lens and actually a more holistic lens.
because I was working with people not just in their professional selves but as human beings much more holistically and it sat much more comfortably with me. think my coaching practice improved no end from the work I did on myself albeit that was challenging work to have to do but you just you know know yourself better you you get to understand more of your blind spots that sort of thing.
Jean Burke (04:11.023)
It's not that I think everybody should go and do that training before becoming a coach, but I do, if I'm talking to anybody who's thinking about coaching as a practice, as a profession, as a career, I really do encourage them to do some self-reflection work as well before they get there.
Melissa Hague (04:30.478)
Yeah. And of course, really that's how we connected, isn't it? Because that whole thing around who you are is how you coach and you have to know yourself really well as a human being in order to work with another human being. And I think it's really interesting that you identified when you were training as a coach, hang on a minute, there's something more here. There's something deeper.
I need to go deeper in order to do this work. And, you know, I don't want to make a sweeping statement that coach training doesn't do that. Some does, right? Yeah, some of it is psychologically informed and, you know, has that evidence base to it for sure. But this piece around knowing yourself, doing the work yourself is something that I think for many coaches we come to.
Jean Burke (05:09.369)
Sometimes, definitely.
Melissa Hague (05:27.73)
after we've done that initial training, I've got the skills, I've got the toolbox, I'm ready to go and then, hang on, is there something else here? I think there might be because I'm getting in my own way or I'm getting in my client's way and I'm not sure why that is. So it's a real connection point for us, I think this idea of awareness, self-development, doing that self-reflection in order to be a better coach. And so
Jean Burke (05:48.815)
Mmm.
Melissa Hague (05:56.494)
But I'm also conscious that terms like self-awareness and self-reflection, they're quite, big terms, right? So for you, what is, perhaps we can try and be a bit more specific. What is the self-work that we need to do as coaches for ourselves and to be in service of our clients?
Jean Burke (06:19.887)
I think what's popped into my mind straight away, Melissa, is understanding in particular our own defenses and how we deal with anxiety and uncertainty. Because I think often when people coming out of maybe a corporate career into something like coaching, you're used to finding the answers, finding the solutions.
you're used to getting to the bottom of things rather than sitting with the unknown. And actually one of the key things you learn very quickly as a coach, if you do it well, and as a psychotherapist is that you're often sitting with the unknown. You're sitting with a client's vulnerability, you're sitting with their anxiety. And if you're not in touch with your own around that,
then I think it's very difficult to be in relationship with someone else. And, you know, if you look at any of the research around coaching and psychotherapy about how it works, you know, there's various depths of research out there that from what I can read, the bottom line is it's all about the relationship. And what gets in the way of a good relationship is me being defended.
me being anxious, meeting somebody else's defenses and their anxiety and us not being able to talk about the real stuff that's in the room or what's not getting spoken about. So I think that's the starting point really for me. And I was talking to someone yesterday, we were talking about the pros and cons of keeping notes, especially in the context of AI and things like that these days. And she said, well, I don't really keep notes, but what I do keep is a learning journal for my coaching.
And that kind of speaks to me to the self awareness and the reflection. You know, when we capture our notes at the end of a session, is it about the breakthrough the client has made? Or is it actually about how did I show up? What was going on for me? Did I was I able to be present or was I thinking about that thing I needed to do after the coaching session and things like that? And often I don't without taking time out to think how did you show up and and
Jean Burke (08:40.407)
and that sort of things and you know was I defended or you know was I on the side of the client there, did I challenge them enough? I just don't think we can be in the quality of relationship that will facilitate or enable change with clients. I mean what do you think?
Melissa Hague (08:58.05)
Well, I mean, you're speaking to my heart and my brain, which is wonderful because you really, mean, for me, in the work I do, I talk a lot about armor, that, you know, all of the ways that we self protect, which I think is the, you know, the defending that you're talking about. And I think for me, certainly in my own development journey, I had certain pieces of my suit of armor, which I was fully aware of. And there were other pieces of my armor that
Jean Burke (09:02.733)
Yeah.
Jean Burke (09:10.127)
Melissa Hague (09:26.878)
I had no idea of until I became a coach. was like, where's that piece of armor come from? And so there's something for me about, yes, understanding that we're in defense mode with self protecting. Also what's driving that? I'm really curious about what's driving that. And your point about uncertainty, not knowing, you know, being able to sit with that discomfort.
is a big part of that because the immediate reaction is I feel a bit vulnerable because I don't know where we're going next. I don't know what the next question is. I've got no idea how to fix this. I feel a bit vulnerable. I feel uncertain. Up comes my armour, my defence mechanism. And of course, I think the really critical thing, as you said about relationship connection, we can't connect when we're armoured up. We can't connect from behind all of that defence mechanism with our clients.
So yeah, I think this whole idea of the ways that we defend often, the patterned ways that we armor up, sometimes without even really realizing we're doing, is so important to understand and uncover and be curious about, not beat ourselves up about, but be curious about. And I think the other thing that was interesting is when you were talking about, you know, I'm feeling anxious or I'm, you know, I'm...
I'm feeling frustrated or you whatever the emotion is. There's a big part of this, which I think for me, certainly again, in my own development and kind of doing the work with Brene Brown and people like Susan David, this idea of understanding, being able to understand a name, recognise a name, the emotion that I'm feeling in the moment that I'm feeling it. Because it's not even just having anxiety, it's knowing that
that's curious. I'm feeling a little bit anxious. What's that about? Right. So can I name it? Can I recognise it? And can I be curious about why that's showing up for me in this moment? Right. And like you said, the journal or the reflective practice afterwards is a really great place to explore that. So yeah, I think this idea of, of knowing our defence mechanisms, knowing where they came from, or where they're coming from.
Melissa Hague (11:42.71)
And being able to kind of recognise a name, what's going on for us and being curious about it is such a big part of that kind of self awareness journey that we need to go on right as coaches, I'd say as humans, but in the context of what we're talking about.
Jean Burke (11:57.609)
and they don't get me started!
Melissa Hague (12:01.07)
Absolutely. And so, I mean, I know you and I have had conversations before and this I talked about this idea of courage and how it ties in for you. And so I'm, I'm wondering about what, well, actually, I'm wondering two things. I'm to try and make it into one question. is this idea of, you know, I wanted to ask, well, what does courageous coaching look like for you? And I'm wondering,
Jean Burke (12:20.503)
Alright.
Melissa Hague (12:29.742)
Jean with your background, what does courageous coaching look like stood next to courageous therapy, being a courageous therapist? Are they the same? Are they different? Tell me more about that.
Jean Burke (12:45.002)
Are they the same or are they different? I think they're probably similarities. I'm not sure I'm a different, I'm wearing a particular hat when I'm coaching someone and I'm wearing a particular hat when I'm sitting as a psychotherapist with someone but as a human being I think I'm showing up similarly. For me coaching I think it's subjective.
And you and I spoke before about when I was doing my psychotherapy training, my thesis was on the psychotherapist's experience of courage in their practice. interestingly enough, in preparation for our conversation, I hadn't read my papers for ages and I went back to them. And I was reading the research and what people said to me in the interviews I did.
Melissa Hague (13:24.206)
Mmm.
Jean Burke (13:40.983)
really what came across was, look, it's entirely subjective and it changes depending on the client that I'm with. Yeah. And I think that's relevant to your question about what does it look like in a coaching space versus a therapeutic space. For me, it's less about the space, it's more about who's the human being I'm in contact with, that I'm having a conversation with. So there's that aspect of it for me.
However, would also say that the commonality in it for me is that it is about me bringing my authentic self into relationship with someone else. Which means if I'm experiencing vulnerability or stuckness with a client, be that in a psychotherapeutic context or in a coaching context, I'm going to name it. It's going to show up in the conversations we're having.
The difference I suppose is in the depth I might go into working with a coaching client versus a therapeutic client. I'm contracting for that depending on the context. because for me it's subjective, it is about this authentic aspect of oneself, but it's also about the whole self. So you talked about being able to name feelings. And I don't know about your experience of working with clients, but
And this is the same for therapy clients or coaching clients. People often come and they're stuck in their heads. And they have, they're kind of, they're from here up. Somebody yesterday described it as brain on stick. You where's the rest of the body? Yeah. And there is something for me about getting people into their bodies in the same way as I'm using the whole of my body in a therapeutic or a coaching context to be able to share with people.
how it's making me feel physically as well as psychologically. I think, I don't know if I'm making any sense, I'm probably getting over excited, Melissa. But what I was reading also in my papers was a lot of the world of positive psychology went into thinking about courage as a character strikes. And maybe we could build muscle or we could learn how to be courageous.
Jean Burke (16:01.327)
And I think my reflections both in my research and in my practice is this isn't about a learned behavior. This is about what's going on within me. How is this relationship manifesting itself? And what's important to encourage a client to change, be that therapeutically or in a coaching space? The theory and the technique is secondary to me. And I actually think
That's where courage shows up as well, to be able to hold a theory and technique really lightly, but to sit with someone in whatever they're in, whatever challenging context they find themselves in the workplace or in their personal lives, and be able to say to them, yeah, it's really shit. I can completely see that. And yeah, it sounds like you're really stuck. Let's sit in the stuckness rather than trying to ignore any of that and make it better for a client.
Melissa Hague (16:57.868)
Yeah. It does.
Jean Burke (16:58.329)
Does that kind of, I feel like I've gone in a roundabout direction, but.
Melissa Hague (17:02.68)
I love it. I love a roundabout direction. And I love your over-excitement, if indeed that's what it is. Brilliant. And so, I mean, I think, know, embodiment, connecting below the neck is again a really critical part of our self-awareness, our self-development as coaches. Because there's so much data and information in our bodies, in our physical sensations that is, you know, both helpful to us, but also helpful potentially to our clients.
Jean Burke (17:07.427)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (17:32.974)
And so I'm now thinking about, I quite often, because I train a lot of new coaches, people who are coming to coaching for first time through their very first qualification. And of course, I think as most first kind of certificate type programs for coaching does, they talk about what are the differences between therapy and coaching and mentoring. And let's get really clear about the differences. And of course, for me, the similarities.
And one of the things that I find, I'm gonna say trips new coaches up as they're developing, understanding the differences is that kind of the point at which we might step over from coaching into therapy, how will I recognize that? How will I know that? What will I do when that happens? And it's quite a point of tension, right? And I often talk about the competence boundary.
And you're a lovely example of this because your competence boundary will be very different to mine because you are both a coach and a therapist. I'm just a coach. I say just a coach, only a coach. I don't know how to say that without it sounding, making me smaller. But you understand what I'm saying? Our competence boundary is really different. So one of things I'm curious about is that a lot of those new coaches, and I know I had this as well, is that that moment, well, trusting yourself that you will know
when that moment arises, when I am moving from my competency and coaching into what might be, could be, is a therapeutic space. How will I know? And so again, how will I know? Because we can't sit with not knowing or the uncertainty of that. Of course, we're looking for, we're looking for reassurance and certainty. But from your perspective, and because you know, this must be, I'm guessing being a trained therapist and a trained coach.
you know, that how do you, how do you know what's the trigger for you that goes, okay, am I am, you know, I may be stepping from one space to the other. And then what do you do with that in a session in a coaching session?
Jean Burke (19:45.091)
I think the best way of me answering this is to probably go back some years to when I'd step back into the world of coaching. So I've been working more purely as a psychotherapist and I'd gone, okay, I'm going to go back into the world of coaching. And I remember being, you know, what you were talking about, so alert to.
Melissa Hague (20:13.208)
Yes.
Jean Burke (20:13.711)
I'm wearing my coaching head over here and wearing my therapy head over here. And I remember being in session with someone who was a coaching client who was really struggling with her mental health because of what was going on at work. And I remember thinking this
Melissa Hague (20:24.334)
Mm-hmm.
Jean Burke (20:41.301)
lady could really do with a space that is not focused on the issues at work but is more focused on just how she's feeling in general, how this is impacting her life more broadly and actually it seemed like there were repetitive patterns from previous things that had happened in her life and I remember thinking, god I can't work with this person as a therapist.
because I'm working with them as a coach. And I remember taking it to supervision and my supervisor really getting quite, not cross, but engaged with me about this because she said, my goodness, you are so well qualified to carry, to hold this person more broadly than just as a coach. Why on earth
would you hand her over? What would that do to the relationship was what she said to me. She invited me to think about actually would that have a negative effect on my coaching relationship with her because actually she also knew that I was trained psychotherapist and she had the courage to bring something into the space that she might not have been able to do if I wasn't trained as a psychotherapist.
And in supervision, what we ended up talking about was the re-contracting. That actually, rather than just kind of blindly veering into the work with this person, that actually having a conversation with her along the lines of, I can work with you more broadly, but this does feel like it's more appropriate for a therapeutic space. We can do that.
but it is in service of the coaching outcome that you were looking for because we're still working together as coach and coachee. But I remember holding those boundaries really, really tightly as a consequence. So now I reconfigured my practice, Melissa, as a result of that. And when I'm meeting a new coaching client now, I will always talk about working more holistically with them. So I work,
Jean Burke (23:08.227)
Whereas I might have worked with quite tight boundaries previously, I now work much more psychodynamically with my coaching clients. So I will be looking at patterns. I will be looking at their relational experience more broadly than in the workplace context. Because we don't leave our personal lives and our kind of who we are outside of work at the entrance to.
I was about to say the entrance to the workplace. The workplace is often a space in the home now, but we just don't leave it at the door. So it actually freed me up to work more broadly. But in answer to the very specific question about how do you know, for me, it's a felt sense at this stage. I can't say that it's a tick box I go into that makes me go, oh, this is a therapy client.
versus a coaching client because ultimately for me somebody's had the courage to knock on my door metaphorically, email me or phone me and say I need help, be it from a work point of view or from a therapy point of view and I'm qualified to hold both but I look at the ethical guidelines of the BACP and UKCP and all of the coaching bodies.
speak to around this subject. So I'm always keeping that in mind. I'm thinking about safeguarding my clients, confidentiality, all that sorts of things. So I feel like I cover it. But to be able to say it's a tick box, this is where we cross the line. But I do think as for new coaches, there's something about if I'm starting to feel out of my depths,
And if the anxiety that's being provoked, starting to feel unmanageable, actually that's something to take to supervision and think, actually, should I be working with this client or not? And then it is about, back to courage, then it's about having a courageous conversation with the client about what's right or not appropriate for them.
Melissa Hague (25:20.75)
Yeah. I mean, that for me, that is courage in the coaching space, right, being able to name what's going on and not to ignore it even, right, or pretend it's not happening. But also, I think the courage to to to re-contract or revisit the contract. And it's so interesting to me because
We're talking here about part of our process, right? Our coaching process, this whole idea of contracting, which is such a critical part of our process. But when we get to the, when do you know, right? When do you sense, you think, I think I'm, ooh, something going on here and I don't think this is for me, this might be for therapy, whatever. You said, it's a felt sense, it's not a tick box.
Right? So for all of our contracting, for all of our process, all of those tools, all of those techniques that we learn and that are absolutely important, we're still connecting to a human being. And so we've got to be, and we are humans too. So we have to be able, therefore, in order for that to follow through, we have to be connected to ourselves in order to feel that in the first place. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And this is where I think, you know, this is not about
throwing away process, throwing away tools and techniques. It's about yes, all of that. And what about you and your your awareness of self your awareness of what's happening, as you say, in your body below the neck, your defenses, all of those things we've talked about. So it's these these things for me, they're so interconnected, I can't see them separately. Oh, here's the process over here. And oh, here's this thing about I ought to do a little bit of self awareness stuff.
It's like they've completely connected the two.
Jean Burke (27:15.791)
There's a quote that I keep coming back to that I stumbled upon when I was doing my research with psychotherapists. was from a woman called Jordan was her surname. She talked about the courage to be in connection, to be in real connection with someone. And that is
how she described it was about we're bringing all of our subjectivity into relationship with somebody else's. We have the theory and we have the technique, but it's the courage to be in real connection with someone which may bring conflict, which may bring disagreement, but at the end of the day it is two human beings in conversation with all of our human beingness, our humanity.
And that's where for me change can happen. that's where I think that's where courage shows up every single day. It's if we can be in real connection and relationship with another.
Melissa Hague (28:22.038)
love that. Not just connection, but real connection, right? As you say, with another. And also this idea, I love the term human-ness, right? Because I'm like, we're messy, and we're imperfect, and all of that stuff. And we bring all of that into the space, whether we're willing to see it and sit with it or not, it's there, all of that messiness and us not, you know, not being perfect. So true.
I really want to come back to your research because I find that fascinating. I'm like, okay, so you did a whole like thesis on like courage in psychotherapy. And so I'm wondering because I'm I'm I'm I don't know, but I'm guessing that maybe some of our listeners haven't read your thesis. I don't know if you published it or not. That most of us including me, I'll put my hands up.
Jean Burke (28:59.055)
Mm.
Jean Burke (29:09.781)
I am sure lots of people, most people haven't read my series.
Melissa Hague (29:15.874)
haven't read your thesis, right? So I'm wondering, is there a way for you to distill what you learn about through your research around coaching and psychotherapy that you would really want to share with coaches? what did you learn? What can you share with us?
Jean Burke (29:39.577)
What can I share with you? I think there are, I mean, the research professionals would challenge me on this without proven research, but I think there are definitely parallels. Some of the key things that came up that I thought were really interesting rereading the data was that I spoke to the idea that courage is subjective, and I was looking at the psychotherapist's courage, which relates to kind of the coach's courage as well.
I talked to people about what they noticed about themselves over the course of their training and development as psychotherapists and what they noticed was that the degree to which they could lean into them being courageous grew over time. So it might be like this when you're starting out as a coach or a psychotherapist and like that.
Melissa Hague (30:38.455)
Yes.
Jean Burke (30:38.639)
when you're much more developed and experienced in your work. So I guess if I'm thinking about those coming into the coaching profession now, give yourself a break. The very fact that you're training as a coach and you want to step in and show up with clients on a regular basis, that takes huge courage. And that's the subjectivity aspect of it, but also the variability of it. So we're varied by person to person.
And I think that's the other aspect of it. For God's sake, don't compare yourself with someone else in terms of courageousness. you having a difficult conversation with a client might be you being really courageous. You saying, can no longer work with a client might be you being really courageous. You may maybe leaning into a subject that you actually know, feel a bit.
funny about yourself with the client and being prepared to talk about it, that's courageous. So for me, it was the subjectivity of it, it was that it grew and it evolved over time. And I think probably one of the other more important things that I alluded to a little bit earlier is that it isn't something to be perfected like a skill or a technique. It is...
It is something that is authentic and unique to you. And your version of courage in that space is entirely different to anybody else's. Yours will be different to mine. And there will also be days where I feel distinctly less courageous than other days. So there was that aspect of it. But what I did hear from therapists was it was
Melissa Hague (32:21.751)
Yes?
Jean Burke (32:29.295)
it was a value within them that they really felt that was important about them and how they showed up in therapy with clients. The question, I suppose that was unanswered in the research was how does it serve the client?
Yeah. And the two not unanswered, but I suppose not proven, should we say, was that the two aspects of it were that courage would appear to us being courageous in the same way as a client might be courageous, would appear to strengthen the relationship between client and coach.
Melissa Hague (33:03.405)
Right.
Jean Burke (33:23.587)
The degree to which it has an impact on change happening in the relationship or for the coach or the therapist is entirely subjective because we could say, I don't think we can go and say, being courageous on Wednesday was the thing that made change happen for the client. I think in order to be able to answer that question, you'd have to ask the client.
How did they experience a particular therapist or a particular coach on that day? Was it different to another day? And in which case, what impact did that have? So that aspect of it, I think is entirely subjective. We as the coachee or therapist can go, of course, but actually we don't know. But the thing that it seemed to have more proof around was that it strengthened
the between the coach and the coachee or the therapist and the patient.
Melissa Hague (34:21.07)
And I, it's so interesting to hear that for me, because I think that when I talk about courage and coaching, courageous coaching, it is about in terms of you, showing up as a whole human being and therefore allowing the space for your client to do the same. And that is absolutely about the relationship and connection. It's not a skillset that, know, do this,
do A, then do B, then do C, and then you'll be courageous. It isn't like that because it's to do with the relationship. And I really like this idea of it being subject, that you use the word subjective because I know from my own journey, but also from talking to lots of different coaches about, you know, courage is that it looks different for different people. It never looks the same. And what might cause me huge amounts of vulnerability and courage.
might not be what would cause someone else the same. and I think the other thing that's super important that you mentioned is that, and I say this all the time to people, when we think about courage, we tend to think of it in these kind of really bold, big, you know, episodes or leaps that we make in our lives or our work, which yes, there is that, but actually what's important is the moments of ordinary, everyday courage, just that little moment.
right, where you just choose to be courageous. And that's what shows up in the coaching space, I think, rather than the big bold leaps. So yeah, I really like this, this it's small moments, right? Definitely.
Jean Burke (35:59.339)
I completely agree. I was thinking about the hero's journey because you could define courage in that way, couldn't you? There's this big challenge. I feel really scared and I go into the forest and I take on the challenge. And yeah, that's one form of courage. But everyday courage is actually, I guess, we were starting our conversation earlier, it's, this feels a bit vulnerable.
Melissa Hague (36:04.686)
you
Jean Burke (36:24.073)
I don't know where we're going in this space. I have no idea what question to ask the client next, but I might just say that to them, you know, and that's courage as well.
Melissa Hague (36:36.268)
Yeah, totally, totally. And I think that the important thing, of course, for me, and in continuing to develop that courage is to be to notice that that you've had that little conversation with yourself, if you like, and tuck it away and come back and it forms part of your reflective practice. Okay, so what happened? I asked the question, what happened? You know, what was the impact for my client? What was the impact for me? anyone, you know, the world didn't end. So
What what might that mean for the future? How might I be more courageous or less courageous in the future? So so there's some really important reflection off the back of that because I think that in terms of building our courage, I think there's that element of get we do a little bit. Okay, that wasn't comfortable, but it wasn't too bad. Okay, let me try a little bit more. Okay, that felt a little bit too. Okay, let me come back a little bit. We're doing that all the time, aren't we?
thing, I guess, rather than I was, you know, I wasn't courageous on Monday, I am now on Tuesday. It's just not that kind of binary, is it really either or.
Jean Burke (37:46.925)
No, and I wonder whether you're also speaking to in that, about, you know, just the challenge we all have on a day-to-day basis with life more broadly. There are some days we're able to be more courageous than other days, aren't there? And there are some days where just showing up is being courageous. And that's OK.
Melissa Hague (38:04.309)
Bye.
Melissa Hague (38:08.907)
Yeah.
Jean Burke (38:10.857)
I know and yeah it's definitely not binary and we shouldn't be beating ourselves up about it and at the same time I'd say there's something in here about how do we look after ourselves to be able to do the work because I think if I think about my coaching practice at the minute not leaving aside my therapy practice the the material people are bringing to coaching is getting more and more
Jean Burke (38:43.227)
The change people are dealing with in organisations is phenomenal. People are arriving on a regular basis burnt out and in order for us to be in service of that, we need to be looking after ourselves and equally having the courage to go, can't do it today. I actually need to cancel.
that client today and see them on another day is courageous as well as showing up.
Melissa Hague (39:14.19)
100%. We talk a lot about the idea that if we're going to be courageous, if we choose to be more courageous, you know, in our work or our lives, you know, self compassion is an incredibly important part of that practice. Because the work we do is heavy. It's heavy, right? It's heavy, both in terms of what the client brings. It's also heavy in terms of what it requires of us, the presence, the listening skills, you know, being in that moment, showing up as your whole self.
That's all heavy work. So self care, self compassion, so so important. And you know, most of us are with very, we have a lot of compassion for our clients and not a lot of compassion for ourselves. And I often think, you know, what's that role modeling to my clients if you know, not taking care of myself, 100 %
And it's really interesting, Jean, because I had an experience earlier on this week around this kind of self awareness, self compassion, self care thing. And I don't know yet whether this is just me. So this is the first time I've shared this because it literally only happened this week. It's really got me thinking. Because I suddenly had the conversation with a coach, a friend who's become a friend. And I was saying that, you know what, sometimes I get tired of all
this self development and self awareness and looking inwards and trying to understand yourself and because for every answer I find there's another question. And I'm just a bit weary of all the questions. And it and I almost and I don't know that I've settled on this yet, but I almost called it almost like the curse of the coach because with I asked myself a lot of questions I self coach in it and I almost can't stop myself right there's another question there's another question all the time.
And I thought I mentioned to you at the beginning, I'm going on holiday next week. And I was like, do you know what? I'm going to have a week of just no questions, no more questions, because I just, I can't, I'm weary of all the questions. And so I think that there's that piece as well around, you don't have to be on it all of the time. You don't have to constantly be learning more about yourself and more about your clients. Sometimes you can just go, do you know what? I'm just going to just, just be me as I am.
Melissa Hague (41:31.832)
just stop asking myself questions. It's like, it's like the, I've called it the curse of the coach.
Jean Burke (41:37.135)
curse of the coach, I think there's something similar for psychotherapists as well. It's like you can't, you can't unknow things and you, you do get into the mentality of processing in that way. It's really interesting you say that for me, it's something I really recognise and what I started putting in kind of on an ad hoc basis for a while, but
Melissa Hague (41:41.365)
Yeah.
Jean Burke (42:03.455)
absolutely solidly this year is much more, I now have a solid breath work and meditation practice to just take me into the here and now rather than into the what ifs and if I consider that and well what about that client and actually it's just a delightful 20 minutes every now and then to just go there's no thinking there's just breathing here there's no thinking and actually even that practice
Melissa Hague (42:10.318)
Mm-hmm.
Jean Burke (42:32.131)
helps me notice the curse of the coach to your point is like it is always on. But I gift myself now what I call downtime or just some breath work practice on a regular basis, on a daily basis. And if I don't put it in, I notice it because I do head off in a tangent. Or I will, I'm a big fan of journaling. So I will get the stuff out of my head to create a bit of space to just be rather than.
be off wondering about stuff.
Melissa Hague (43:04.577)
That reminds me right that we talk a lot about presence in coaching and being present with our clients. I'm going to have a week on holiday next week of just being present with myself. Right, just just being present in the moment like you say just okay, the questions, the thinking that can wait, let's just be present with me.
Jean Burke (43:23.971)
I'll be interested to hear how you get on with yourself.
Melissa Hague (43:26.734)
Absolutely. And also, but I'm also going to caveat, I'll be saying I'm also going to be kind to myself because sometimes it creeps in without, seemingly without my control. So I will catch myself a break as well. And, Jean, I always end these conversations by asking this question and then I'd love to pose it to you as well, which is, what's the one thing that you wish all coaches knew about courage?
Jean Burke (43:35.695)
Yeah!
Jean Burke (43:57.775)
What's the one thing I wish all coaches knew about courage?
Jean Burke (44:08.417)
I will come back, Melissa, to what I've woven through today is that it is unique to each individual. I think don't over-analyze it. I think it's entirely subjective and equally it can be incredibly helpful in forging strong relationships with clients. So lean into it.
understand where your edges are probably, alongside that self-compassion aspect, I'd say, know, lean into it, but don't give yourself a hard time. Yeah. And actually showing up authentically will inevitably mean that there'll be an opportunity for you to be courageous, to ask the challenging questions of your clients, to stretch them.
Melissa Hague (44:50.328)
Yeah.
Jean Burke (45:07.567)
to be vulnerable with them and that can only benefit the client relationship in my point of view but overall I think it's subjective.
Melissa Hague (45:21.09)
Yeah, I feel like it's, you know, find what courage means for you, right? Find your own brand of courage and avoid the comparison of, well, that's what it looks like for that coach or, you know, that. And of course we all do it, don't we? People will say to, I know this has happened to me, people will say to me, wow, Melissa, that was so courageous. And I think, I didn't think it was courageous. was...
Jean Burke (45:28.195)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (45:44.908)
terrified. It was awful. And so we often see courage in others, but we don't see it in ourselves as well. So that lends itself to that idea of it being very subjective, right? Jean, thank you so much for this conversation. yeah, just sharing your, your, some of your research, but also you know, the way that you look at it, and the way that you view this, and there's such synergy between
Jean Burke (46:03.052)
I've enjoyed it.
Melissa Hague (46:14.38)
the way you and I both think and feel about this, but it's so lovely to be able to just move it around and look at it from different perspectives. So I really appreciate you sharing and joining us today. So thank you.
Jean Burke (46:29.155)
My pleasure, I've enjoyed it.
Melissa Hague (46:31.404)
Take care, Jean.
Jean Burke (46:33.135)
Thank you.