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In Living the Teachings of Sai Baba, we interview spiritual teacher Gautam Sachdeva where he gives insights on how one can Live Baba's teachings and begin to feel peace of mind in their daily living.
Namaste.
Om Sairam. We
are with Gautamji once again for our next Podcast.
Gautam, thank you, as always, for your time.
Om Sairam, Nik. It's always a joy to be on this Podcast, and I would like to add I made a recent visit to Shirdi.
It was very beautiful, as always, very special, and one could call these trips "recharging one's Baba batteries." Actually, to be honest about it, I had
gone to Shirdi to get the first copy of my new book, Heart to Heart, Blessed at Baba's Samadhi. That was the intention of the trip, and by Baba's grace, it happened most beautifully.
And you mentioned something happened in the Chavadi, so maybe you can share that beautiful experience. It was very sweet. Surprisingly, the Chavadi was quite empty, whereas Dwarkamai, there was a very long queue.
So I decided to give Dwarkamai a miss, and went into the Chavadi, and you know the usual procedure is you bow down
before the big portrait of Baba, which I did.
And there's a Diya in
the corner, in a big glass kind of case, so I bowed down. I was just contemplating on the Diya, actually, and then I turned around to leave the Chavadi, and
someone tapped me on the shoulder, and when I looked back, it was a very robust, heavy-built Pandit of sorts, and he said, "Ruko." So I stopped, and he went behind the portrait. He put his hand and pulled out a saffron-coloured cloth, and he came and he gave it to me.
And I was quite pleasantly surprised by this gesture, so I bowed down in a Namaste to thank him, and then my hand went to my wallet, because I thought I'll give him something, but to my surprise, he had already turned back and gone his own way.
But I think
you know how the Ego likes to feel special, so I felt like it was a great Omen that I got this blessing in this form, and hopefully Baba's blessing will be on the new book as well.
I intended to ask you about your experience, since you had shared it with me at the end of the Podcast, but we've begun with this...
(Laughter...) And talking of books, there is an announcement I would like to make as well.
The beautiful book on Anna Sahib Gabankar, which we discussed in our last Podcast, has finally gone into print, and the Kindle version is available,
and within about three or four weeks, it should be available to order.
So those devotees interested in pre-ordering it can do so today,
and we should expect shipping within a month from now.
Wonderful, that would be a great thing.
And devotees who have access to Kindle, which I highly recommend, can get the book straight away.
And the book is titled, "A Jewel of Saint Devotion."
Nice, very nice, beautiful. Yeah, so by Baba's grace...
So Gautam, continuing from our last Podcast, I wanted to speak with you on
Faith and Patience, and in particular, on
faith
in the Guru or
Baba's teachings and
words in daily living.
So, for example, in the Gita, Lord Krishna has used two verses, which I would like to read out to you. "Those who abide by these teachings of Mine with profound faith, and are free from envy, are released
from the bondage of Karma.
But those who find faults with My teachings, being bereft of knowledge and devoid of discrimination, they disregard these principles
and bring about their own ruin."
So Gautam, whenever I think
of faith, the devotee who I think of, of Baba's, is always Kaka Saheb Dixit, who was really a pinnacle of faith, living faith for all of us.
And I wanted to discuss one Leela that had happened,
to speak
about this.
So once
he came down
with a fever, Baba basically told him, "Kaka, you go back to Parla, and within a few days, this will pass." I think he had come down with typhoid, and it was pretty serious. So he was also a little amazed that rather than getting Uday or being with Baba, he was asked to go back to Parla.
He went back,
and Baba told him, "Don't sleep, don't lie down, and eat Seera Halwa." So he did what Baba asked him to do, and Baba said, "In a few days, in four days or something, this will pass." His condition worsened, but his faith was absolutely unwavering.
He had a doctor, who was also a family friend, who would come check on him, and him and all the relatives and friends started telling him, "Kaka, what are you doing?
You are under the influence of this Fakir, and you've got typhoid, and you're eating Seera with Ghee in it,
with Cashews..."
and what exactly... they were trying to coax him. So his faith
was absolute. He said, "See, I see where you come from, but please
come to meet me as well, but I will not change my course of treatment." And it was quite bad, like they actually thought he may pass away.
But as Baba said it, a
few days later, he came
without any
treatment, he was absolutely fine.
Now, this is an extreme example, Gautam, but
this did make me think of what is also said in the Gita, that he was a living embodiment of faith in the Guru's instruction and words.
It is, you know, Nik, to be honest, I feel this whole
topic of faith, there is a bit of a misunderstanding around it, because what we tend to do is we
develop this thought process that to have faith means to have faith in Baba that I will get what I want.
You see, I think we may have touched upon this in some previous Podcasts,
so it begs repetition.
The faith is that
whatever happens is Baba's will.
You see, now you
have given a classic example of this, that it looked like he was getting worse and worse and worse, but because the faith was not, "I will get okay," that was secondary.
The faith is, "Baba has said this, I am following the instructions, and that's it." Now, this kind of faith
can only happen once
there is a total surrender that has happened.
If that total surrender has not happened, that kind of faith will not fructify.
So you see, we have to be very
mindful of this, Nik, because my understanding
is most of our surrender is conditional.
It is half-hearted surrender.
It is not a total surrender.
A total surrender would be that when I'm going through tough times in life, Baba is still watching my back. I'm not questioning Baba, I'm not questioning the teachings, I'm not asking things like, "Why is He doing this to me? What have I done wrong?"
All those are thinking-mind related thought processes.
Faith means, actually, the annihilation of this thinking mind, which is always going round and round in circles, questioning, arguing, wondering.
With total faith,
that process does not happen.
So I know it's
easier said than done, I can
understand that, but
to be very
mindful of this, that when I'm going through my challenges, that is when my faith is tested.
Otherwise, it's easy to say, "I have faith."
When everything is hunky-dory, it's quite all right.
The problem is when there's pain.
So faith is
like a leap of faith, I would call it.
Why is it a leap of faith?
Because it is not rational, Nik.
Faith is not something that comes through the mind, it is something in the heart. When you give up this trying to understand your life situation, your challenges, you stop questioning all that.
You have to deal with what is arising in the moment. And a total faith in the
Divine Will of God, in the Divine Will of the Source
Consciousness, or the Absolute, which Baba was a representative of, is what takes us through those challenges.
It is not an outcome-based
faith to reiterate this point. Gautam, for
devotees
that are on the journey, I wanted to speak to you about these incremental steps in between.
And maybe certain favourable attitudes that they can take...
little baby steps, so to speak. So one
of these, I felt is that, see, at
times when you go through the Teachings, and
that becomes the filter
through which you see life... say, you're immersed in the Satcharita, you are very dedicated with your reading and practice,
and certain situations come up where, say, your mind... this is where patience also comes in. Your mind gets impatient, it's thinking, going in circles, there's no stillness of mind, and if
you have
this faith
that, "See, in this moment, I may not understand, like Baba has
advocated, 'Be patient'..."
or the other Teachings, like maybe which is more relevant to your particular situation. But in those
moments, to say, "Maybe this doesn't make sense to me now, but I
trust Baba's way that He has shown, and I
will give it time, I trust Baba, what situation comes up, or my interpretation, the judgement of the situation, I don't trust that."
So you trust Baba, you
trust Baba's Teachings, the path shown, because see, we may not all have direct experience of Baba, but the Teachings are there, the path is shown. So would
that be a favourable attitude, in the sense...? And
see, I also feel each time
you do this and succeed, it will
strengthen your faith, right..? Your Shraddha will increase, because it almost becomes like a principle by which you live by. So
the more you are able to do it, then that
gets deeper ingrained. Yes, because you see, Nik, this becomes fresh conditioning, this
way of being, this way of living, this new attitude, this new approach... By and by, it is a
practice, it is a Sadhana, because you see, the new conditioning has to override the earlier conditioning. So you are quite right, it happens in incremental steps, and that is the best way, because
that is how we learn.
I would like to
express a few thoughts on patience.
You
see, my understanding is this patience is not the opposite of impatience,
because people think that, "Oh, I must not be impatient, so that is what patience means." No. What
does it mean to wait patiently? It means don't rush into something. It means
that something could
even be a thought process. You know how our minds
keep rushing out and trying to decipher
events, happenings, people, experiences, and so on.
Always on the go.
Patience means, for me,
it means step
back and
witness
what is going
on.
That is the
quality of patience being referred to. What we
feel is that we want an outcome, we get impatient for that outcome, and now we are being told, "Saburi rakho", means, "No, no, don't be impatient, be patient, you will get the outcome." No, it's not that.
Absolutely. You see, that is the misconception, because no one has guaranteed the outcome, even Baba has not. He has also said, "Events unfold according to Prarabdha." So we need to be cognisant of this fact that
Baba is not giving any guarantees, and what may appear to us as disappointments and failures
may be what is needed for us for our life lessons.
So this patience
is like, hold your horses, don't
rush into reactions, into doing things, take it step by step, take it gradually, because when that happens, Nik,
there is a wedge which is placed between what
is happening in our life and our approach or reaction to it. It makes
us more calm, it makes us more equanimous, and we are able to deal with the situation we have been
presented
with, with patience and
faith. It's almost like a trishul, you know,
faith, patience... Babas will... you could call it whatever you want... surrender... They are all like a trinity, because
they are all
so intimately linked.
You know, an analogy I live by and remind myself on a daily basis, actually, is
there was
this great Master Lao Tse that
had said, "Do you have
the patience
to let the mud settle?" He was referring to a pond, if a pebble, then you know those ripples form, and then the mud is unsettled.
So I visualise that sometimes, that in any situation, be it
good or bad, whatever the situation be, life tends to, in your
pond, throw stones, and these ripples are formed. And
sometimes when we just be, without thinking or feeling you have to do something, you let things settle down, and I feel in most cases, then the truth reveals itself. That's why in the last Podcast, there was this funny line I said,
"Sabar se milega Khabar." So that
line also I tell myself, it's not that you find out some information, but I
feel the truth reveals
itself when you're patient.
Yes, and why is that? Because the Me is not stepping in and forcing its point of view onto the situation. We are allowing that to reveal itself, as you say. Otherwise, we are bombarding it with what we want, what we need, our thoughts, what we think is right, and this is like, "Hey, you know, I've mentioned this before, a friend of mine has a most beautiful prayer. Every
morning he says, "Today I promise
myself I will get out of my own way." It's the same
thing. You know, another aspect, Gautam, I wanted to talk to you about, that see, in
the contemporary Masters of Baba, Baba's method of teaching was also
very unique. It was through the Leelas, there
was no direct instruction per se, and if Baba said
something, it was quite cryptic.
Only those devotees that were very close to Him for many years could...
I mean, it was still like guesswork on their part, but it
was not very easy to understand
what Baba said, or the depth of it. So even in this aspect, there were two things I thought of, that one is, see, when we are humble enough
to realise that even if Baba appears and points
in one direction,
we may not know what that means, like the finger-pointing, like, "Go here..." One is the humility
to realise that even if Baba gives you direct instruction, you may not
truly comprehend through the
mind, but when that
surrender is there, the trust is there, He Himself, I feel, will get... like the seed is sown in you, it will sprout by His grace.
Yes, that is most certain, most certain. But you know, one thing I feel is that
it's such a great
tool employed that the
teachings are revealed through the Leelas, because, you see, the ego doesn't like to be told things directly, nobody likes it, none of us like it. So what Baba has done, and stories are a very beautiful way to convey a message,
so what Baba has done is, through these Leelas, He has
conveyed the highest teachings, but some work we have to do also, Nik. The Guru is not going to do all the work.
How does He test a Sadhak's sincerity and earnestness? That you take some
trouble to understand the story, to see what's behind it,
and
exercise your own flame of
attention,
your own Buddhi, and
that way, together, we walk this road towards Self-realisation, or Enlightenment, or whatever you may call it. So it is a two-way street. Speaking
of
tests, Gautam, if
a devotee takes this attitude, this mental attitude, that tests are invisible, and
throughout, you
begin to see them as invisible tests of faith, if one is
sincere, that could be a favourable attitude? Yes, and Nik, it is everyone's experience. The next moment is a surprise. Could be bad news, could be no news, could be good news, we don't know. But it is everyone's experience that one is being tested all the time,
tested through
relationships, through circumstances in life, situations, but we are
always being tested. Life
is
full of
surprise tests, and these
tests reveal to us where
we
stand on our own journey, how rattled we get, how upset we get, how much in the blame game we get,
or do
we find by and by, being immersed in the teachings, being immersed in the message of the Master, that our
boat
is anchored, if
there's
turbulence, we're still not losing our footing, by and
by we are able to go with the flow,
we will know this for ourselves.
And when we
realise that, "Yes, I am able to now navigate life's journey more
gently than I used to,"
then I know that
my faith, my patience, and my surrender quotients are on the increase, because
this is the direct result of that. Gautam, when we started this Podcast, you
mentioned something on Conditional Surrender,
and I had this thought, which I thought may be helpful, is... see, if one is very clear on the path, that "Why are we coming to Baba, or going to a Guru?" See, Baba
would say, "I will give you what you want, till
you want what I want to give you," which is Self-realisation or Deliverance, the final Deliverance.
But if one is okay, Baba
having so many followers, it's understandable that a lot of people initially may be pulled, that is also Baba's grace and will, but I guess at least on our channel and the Podcast, and people have come to
that level of
immersion in Baba, where they
want to go further on the path,
it's not just about the miracles. So I think it's at that point
where you are wanting to go forward.
But I
feel, see, if the conviction in wanting
that
final Deliverance, or what Baba wants to give you, first having clarity about Self-realisation, and then when you only
seek that... See, there were so many devotees where Baba offered them, "Pick up this gold," like He told Tarkhad, "Take this, take that." They said, "No, we don't want anything, we only want your grace." So I feel
that also
being a... I can't say a pointer or a marker, but if that is most dear to you in your heart, and that's what you seek, then
feel to a large extent, automatically, that conditional surrender will fall away, because then I
feel to that extent, then these
things that happen in your life, the
good, the bad, you become immune to it, you're equanimous. As Baba
said in the Gyaneshwari, when embodiment happens, and one is given a body, that according to that Karma, that is predestined, that will come your way.
where our focus is, and what we seek, and
our earnestness, so I feel that then plays a major
influence in whether
we have even a trace of that conditional devotion, surrender, and patience. Yes, and you see, why it is conditional is because we are still having one foot in the material world. It is when we realise
that the mundane material world has nothing of substance to offer, which is our experience, it's just that once we know that enough, when enough things go wrong, when there are enough disappointments, we realise
that this world outside we cannot bank
on. You
see,
that person becomes a true seeker.
He is looking for that happiness which does not depend
on this outside world.
So when Baba says, "What I want to give is Self-realisation," this becomes a marker to that. So our surrender is conditional because we still have one foot in the external world, while
we've got a taste of the internal, you
see.
So by and by, on one's spiritual journey, if one keeps up with the practice, or keeps contemplating on the teachings, the external world will lose its grip, and then the conditional surrender slowly becomes total surrender. This is how it normally happens, but we must not discount the fact that even a conditional or
partial surrender is a very big thing, because the Ego has realised, "I am not in charge, I am not in control, events are not in my hands." There is a higher force, and to relate to that higher force, I have Baba as a Form, which I can
relate to, because we are in the realm of Form.
And so when I start
seeing things as His will,
what it means is it's not my will, it's the will of a higher force.
So it is
great to even have a conditional partial surrender, when one keeps at it, when one keeps reviewing events in one's life
through this new angle, this new prism, by and by, it
becomes, gradually, deliverance.
That is how
normally it works.
In some people, of course, it's a sudden transformation, like overnight.
There's such a big revelation, and they transform, but that is rare. It is
better to have it gradual, because as I said before, there's decades of conditioning behind us which has to be
overwritten.
So that is how it works. You know, Gautam, in a subsequent podcast, if we can speak on cultivating true patience,
see, from the aspect like today, we have so many distractions, and it's almost like everything conspires to this
immediate pleasure syndrome.
So
you have
social media, all these sort of things, and
there's a lot of normalisation of that. So in one sense, it becomes more apparent.
So for someone who's earnest, it's quite
a good time, actually.
But I do feel, even since you've spent time with Eckhart Tolle,
and the teachings which we could probably bring in...
because see, as you said earlier in the podcast, that patience also... people see with this conditional thing that, "Be patient, I will get what I want." But
going into a deeper realm of patience in daily
living, and specifically from cultivating it, so from simple practices, one could
implement in daily life.
Sure, sure. I would
be
very happy to discuss this, if
your listeners
would be happy to hear it, if they have the patience to hear it.
So thank you, thank you, Gautam, and I intended to bring up your experience and the book. And so, Gautam, very quickly, the book, 'Heart to Heart', just to brief devotees, is
almost like your biography, your experiences in life. So if
someone is interested in your spiritual journey, and your transformation, your earlier years, that is documented in...
your experiences are in that book.
Yes, what I'd like to clarify, Nik, is it's not a regular biography of what happened in childhood, which school I went to, college, all that stuff... No.
It is broadly essays which fall in three categories. One is sacred places I visited in India
and around the world,
which I visited based on intuitions which came to me. So it's like a travelogue to such places. The other
section, one could say, is a section of experiences I had as a spiritual book publisher.
Some were not pleasant, but I was young then, and it showed me how even the spiritual ego,
one has to be careful of.
You see, because I had met certain Masters
and Teachers in my journey as a publisher, and I felt it must be shared to the
audience, not as a criticism, but to learn that we will come across surprises on the journey, and how we handle them is what is important.
And the third section is my personal spiritual journey. My
personal journey,
starting with Lord Ganpati, with Shirdi Sai Baba, eventually landing up at the doorstep of my Advaita Guru, Ramesh Balsekar.
So this is the broad categorisation of these essays, and I do hope that the readers will enjoy this book.
Wonderful.
I will put a link in the description for devotees who wish to get it. I believe it's on Amazon, on your website, so I'll share a link. Similarly, I will also share a link to Anna Saheb's book, which we had discussed in the earlier podcast, 'A Jewel of Sai Devotion', and it's really a very... I mean, it's actually a very big blessing of Baba that this book came our way, because His
story is something I feel every devotee must read, and even His writings, which He was commanded to write by Baba... So the book is segmented in two sections.
One is His life story and His
experiences, and the second is a
compilation of pointers from His Satsangs and writings. So it's very nicely put together.
It took about three years, so I hope devotees can share it with others too.
And it's available both in print and in the Kindle format.
Yes, and as we said, Nik, in the last podcast, that this is actually a very valuable contribution to Baba literature. I think
it
will have a significant role to play in the coming
times. I feel
so too, Gautam, because one particular unique thing about Anna Saheb, I feel, is that he met Baba, he was blessed to meet Baba when he was a young child, and
he had continuous experience of Baba throughout, where his entire spiritual deliverance, which was Baba's promise, up
until 1985, and his writings again were commanded by Baba. So I feel in terms of literature, the teachings, the pointers, and basically, Baba would say, "Without faith and devotion, I am unattainable." And
the whole crux of what Anna speaks of is Prem Bhakti, love for Baba, and
even the Masters like Ramakrishna Dev, they would speak of this, but particular to Baba, I feel this is extremely unique, and there is much inspiration, and there are many jewels in this book for devotees that are especially sincere, you know. It's clearly Baba's will that this book is coming up. Absolutely. And
you know, I forgot to mention this in the earlier talk, Gautam, and this is a very important point. So in
2019, Vinny Ma had spoken about Anna's writings, Shiladi, which is, in fact, we are working on the translation now, so even that book will come,
and Shirdi Che Sai Baba, the main book which he had written. So in the
documentary we did with her on Anna's life, she mentioned that these are his writings, and devotees must read them. I had it at the back of my mind, but one day I got an email randomly, in
which the email stated that, "See,
would you
consider doing podcasts on Anna's writings in Shirdi Che Sai Baba with Gautam?" Okay, and the book is available with
Anna's son, Dr. Sainath Kavankar, here is his number, so you can please order a copy, read it, and consider if you can do podcasts with Gautam on this. So I
remembered Ma mentioning
that this is a book we must read, and at that time we were setting up House of Sai, because we were basically getting all these books that were difficult to get, putting it under one roof for the convenience of devotees. So I said, "Okay, he's an old man, he sent these books by India Post." So I didn't think of it at that time
from fulfilling the thing of doing the podcast, because we just got the book, we listed it, and I forgot about that email.
Then we did the video series with his son, this book came, and then I remembered that email, and believe me, Gautam, that email is nowhere to be found. Oh, God..! So the phone number... see, there are many identifiers... the phone number, Dr. Sainath's name... and I don't delete emails... that email is nowhere to be found. And it
mentioned in particular, "Can
you do podcasts with Gautam on the writings of Dr. Kavankar?" So you
see, it is Baba's will, how these things happen, and how
the book came to be, I mean, all of it... but yeah, I'm deeply grateful, and I do hope devotees... I actually
would say, please take the initiative in making these books available at print costs.
So if they would even want 5 or 10 copies at about 99 rupees of print cost, they can take it and distribute it to others, so they may benefit.
Amazing...
amazing...
really looking forward to this thing. Yeah, yeah... so I thought I'd share that story, I'd forgotten about it, but yeah, that email is nowhere to be found. So thank you, Gautam, for your time, as always. Thank you, thank you, my pleasure. And we may do another podcast very soon. Yes,
God willing.
All right. Okay. Om Sairam. Om Sairam. Om Sairam.