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Marketing and business strategy podcast for executives and marketing leaders who want to improve outcomes from marketing.
Marketing veterans Devin Bramhall (Animalz, Help Scout) & Margaret Kelsey (InVision, OpenView) use their combined 20+ years of experience to increase the business impact of marketing by creating shared understanding of its purpose and outcomes among marketing leaders, founders/CEOs & others in the C-suite.
Created in partnership with Share Your Genius
An award-winning B2B podcast production company: https://www.shareyourgenius.com/
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:01]:
Back in a little town, you wouldn't need a credit score because they would just be like, don't give any money to that person. They never pay it back. And now we've, like, institutionalized, like, trust.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:11]:
That's the thing is I'm sick of everyone calling everything content. Instead of being like, oh, this is my content. I'm like, it's a video. It's a video. It's an Instagram story, like I made an Instagram story. Like, it is its own thing, and Instagram stories are different from other types of videos and other types of content, so just calling it content isn't even strategic.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:35]:
Yeah. I'm Margaret Kelsey.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:36]:
And I'm Devin Bramhall.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:38]:
And this is Don't Say Content.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:40]:
A show created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:43]:
Hi.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:44]:
Hi.
Margaret Kelsey [00:00:47]:
This is a funny topic today, I think, because we're contributing to. If this is a problem, we're contributing to it.
Devin Bramhall [00:00:54]:
Yes. I will say that today we are adding more to the volume of content out in the world, so in a way, we're not helping. However, there's a sneaky way out because we're talking about, have we reached pique content? And while we are creating carbon emissions by making this podcast about it, we are also earning carbon credits in two ways. One, our name is called Don't Say Content. Which leads to two, you can remove content from the pile. If you think about it the way we do, which is that it's actually not all content. Some of it is a movie, a song, a piece of poetry, right. And so if you stop aggregating everything under a very generic term, then you start to see that maybe we haven't reached pique content.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:04]:
Yeah. I was thinking about it from the angle of, like, all of the different trends that are sort of coming together at the same time. Like, it's easier to create content than ever before. I would say maybe I have more time to create content. Maybe it's just because it's easier to create content that we can fit it in. There's more channels than ever before. You think back in the day, there used to be, like, newspapers and radio maybe, and, like, they were, like, gatekeepers of content and creating it. And now the gatekeepers, there's less gatekeeping of being able to create the content.
Margaret Kelsey [00:02:37]:
And I think the other thing that we see, especially on, like, social channels, but even with search, is that the algorithms are keeping up with the fact that there's more content being created. There's more stuff on the internet than ever before. We've changed from, like, a Timeline view where we would probably hit pique content to algorithmic timelines rather than chronological. And so like, I think that we haven't hit pique content because I think all of those things will continue. Yes, there will be more.
Devin Bramhall [00:03:11]:
I mean, the search thing, it's hard to talk about search anymore for me because what you're saying is what is the promise of search? But that's not what actually happens. What search is now is a bunch of sponsored content by companies that have enough budget to be able to pay for those top spots. Then there's the AI-generated thing, which while it does cite sources, it is kind of to me boiling content down to just content, not authored thought leadership. I agree that we're not technically at pique content, but I think that the way search is behaving right now, it's possible, but the thing that, to your other point that I think is good is that, yeah, it's so much easier to be creative the way you communicate with other people. What I think makes us not pique generic pile of content is that there's all these various ways for folks to communicate creatively without contributing to the public forum, right. Like the people who use Snapchat and there's like a bunch.
Devin Bramhall [00:04:30]:
I met an 11-year-old recently and I learned a lot, but I don't remember any of the platforms, but there's a lot of like private chats going on in various different platforms too, or in smaller communities and groups, so, so in a way I'm like, yeah, there might be more, but it feels a little bit more organized.
Margaret Kelsey [00:04:48]:
Yeah, I think that the more content that's created, we have to figure out a way to find what we want. And so a piece of that is those smaller private communities, A piece of that is the algorithms, you know, deciding what you get to see, but that then will become this like niching down of content, right? It's like you don't need to publicly broadcast on a radio station where you're hitting everyone, and half of them don't care. You know, 90% of them don't care. It's you're reaching out to this micro-targeted community either by the algorithm doing that for you so you can have more specific, nuanced conversations, hopefully than you would if you needed to boil it into a message that everyone was going to hear and only a few people were actually interested in.
Devin Bramhall [00:05:36]:
Yeah, and actually this is probably already happening. I just am not up to speed, but thinking about search in a different way where it's less about like there's still pay to play it's always going to be there because it's a business and it has to, but thinking about organic search around not the algorithm criteria, that of quote-unquote quality, but maybe there's multiple different ways to surface organic content in different views. Like for example, based on voices, like people, based on like topic. And then there's a list of people that you can or a category if you're like, I want to know the expert in or like I want to know who the experts are in X area. And so you're searching for the people first, then digging into the content. Because all this talk about, we're having these separate conversations about how garbage search has become mostly just because I think they're in an experimental phase.
Devin Bramhall [00:06:40]:
And the rise of community and word of mouth and influencers and micro-influencers. If you put that all together, I'm like, okay, so we're becoming like a word of like the online universe is moving towards a word of mouth model. And so what does that look like when you put it into the technology? And that to me is really exciting. I'm like, that's kind of cool.
Margaret Kelsey [00:07:04]:
I think this is such an interesting thread because I heard a while back this thinking about the long arc of what's always consistent in humanity, right? Like when we used to live in small villages, you knew the people that were trustworthy, you knew the people that had bad reputations, you knew the people that you could trust because we lived in that tight-knit community, right? And then it's like as we had bigger cities and all of these things and started to move, we've always found way to like almost institutionalize that very basic human need of I need to know who's trustworthy, worthy or not. You even think of like credit scores, like back in a little town, you wouldn't need a credit score because they would just be like, don't give any money to that person, they never pay it back. And now we've like institutionalized like trust. And then this was in the context when I first heard it was around like Uber, right? Getting into a stranger's car. Inherently, there's no like system of how can I trust this person, are they reliable, are they safe or whatnot? And so even Uber had to create driver scores and rider scores, right? And there's a black mirror episode about it, which is really interesting about if we go too far in terms of like people, it's like a episode where this woman is like walking around, she like pisses the coffee person off or something and she saw her like, like her overall rating as a person went down. You know what I mean?
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:24]:
Do you remember that?
Devin Bramhall [00:08:24]:
Yes. I remember that one.
Margaret Kelsey [00:08:26]:
I think we're always so searching for that, right. And that's why micro-influencers. And that's why we have this kind of inherent need to gravitate towards. Do I actually trust that? And that's the interesting thing with generative AI and AI search results is that we're still in that experimental phase of like, how do I even know if I can trust this answer? Right. Because we don't have that structure associated with it yet.
Devin Bramhall [00:08:51]:
Yeah. Like, imagine if you could just do a search like you do today and it's going to do. It's going to do, but you have a tab where it's like, when I moved to New York, I'm like, okay, I'm a market in New York and I'm trying to do. Maybe I'm trying to write a blog post or something like searching for. On a topic. And my automatic filter that I had set for that search view is like results from people in the New York City area.
Margaret Kelsey [00:09:16]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:17]:
So I would only get results from companies like local humans. Yeah, so then if I was like, oh, cool, this seems trustworthy. I can go and choose to quote them, for example, send them a thing, be like, hey, I live in New York, etc, so you can kind of bake. Like, that's the kind of thing I think could be really cool about it and like, useful. And then maybe, I don't know because I'm not a search expert, but I wonder if it's also a way to actually democratize search a little more than it currently is because people get to choose. They use it more.
Devin Bramhall [00:09:54]:
Like they would use ChatGPT or something where it's. They can choose some more parameters. There's infinite optimization options based on your various audience. Like, I don't know. I think that could be really cool.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:07]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:08]:
It probably already exists though, and I just don't know it. And everyone's like, Devin.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:13]:
You can't get local results. It prompts you, but I think saying like, I want, I want restaurant recommendations from somebody exactly like me or whatever.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:21]:
Or like knowledge too. Like, I want research on this topic for a blog post. And I want only results from companies that are based in New York.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:32]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:32]:
And people who are based in New York to see if it's possible to get something.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:37]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:38]:
Like local. This is why I think the compartmentalizing matters when talking about pique content. Because when you think about everything as content.
Margaret Kelsey [00:10:46]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:10:47]:
It's easy to feel like, oh, my God, there's so much, but if you think about there's more opportunity in having, like, the most amount of content out there because you'll have more options to choose from and more like diverse sources, perspectives, all that. Theoretically, we should never feel like we're in pique content.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:11]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:11]:
The problem probably is gonna. Is in that can we have better control over finding what we want to find and not have it be this, like, current thing where it's like an algorithm popularity contest or how much money do you have? And I think that, like, the signals around how much more focus companies are finally catching on to building communities and leveraging smaller forums and platforms, maybe that's the, like, movement.
Margaret Kelsey [00:11:42]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:11:42]:
Because, like, I was at dinner, this is like a year ago, but I was at dinner with a friend who's a journalist, just like the coolest guy met all these people went to their friend's house for a dinner party. And the two folks hosting the dinner, I think they were both photographers, actually. And it was really interesting to talk to those folks because they didn't talk about content. They talked about photography or a newspaper article or a piece of art. They're in the commercial space. You could easily say that their photography creating content. Yeah, but they're like, they were more precise.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:19]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:20]:
And that's the thing is I'm sick of everyone calling everything content.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:25]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:12:26]:
Instead of being like, oh, this is my content, I'm like, it's a video. It's a fucking video. It's an Instagram story, like, I made an Instagram story. Like, it is its own thing, and Instagram stories are different from other types of videos and other types of content, so just calling it content isn't even strategic.
Margaret Kelsey [00:12:44]:
Yeah, I know internally too, we've had a lot of discussions about using precise words for even what is a customer story versus what is a case study versus what is a testimonial. Because even internally, I was recognizing that different people on the team using the same word, asking for a different structure and outcome of that content, right? They might say, we need testimonials, but, but what they really meant was we want, like a customer narrative, like a customer story about their experience, right? And not necessarily like, they want a case study, but they actually don't necessarily want it to have super focused ROI metrics and have that be the main goal of the story, right?
Margaret Kelsey [00:13:24]:
And so I think of that even. Even when you get into, okay, we're not just talking about the medium that the content exists in, but we're talking about the outcome of the content and are we actually saying the same thing about that? Even in this niche B2B software marketing space, it's like we're still haven't aligned on the words about what the outcome of the content should be. And it's interesting because when you talk about like a newspaper article is different from a op-ed, which is different from like an investigated journalism piece, which is different. They're all different outcomes. Am I trying to get somebody to read this and be inspired by it? Do I want somebody to read this and understand about the risks of the world around them? Do I want them to do something? Do I want them just to feel something? And photographs are the same way, right. Like photography, it's am I trying to prompt action? Am I trying to prompt conversation? Am I trying to like, what is even this medium do, right? Like we can get into the nuance of that and I think that's where we can start having more conversations where we have been creating content as human beings because we've been expressing ourselves and trying to get other people to do and feel things our entire human existence.
Margaret Kelsey [00:14:37]:
Right. Cave paintings down to now TikTok stories, but if we can actually talk about not only the medium, but also like the intended outcome of that thing that we're producing, it's all just communication, right? Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:14:51]:
And, but what you're talking about I think is really that's the crux. That's like the, the, like the, the most valuable takeaway from this, which is like content is not content. If you are going to make a thing, you need to know why you're making it, what the intended outcome is from that thing. Whether it's like you said, like the picture, the writing, whatever, that then automatically bakes in knowing how to measure it if you can, right. And I think that's really important because this goes back to our buzzwords episode.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:27]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:27]:
We're like say what you actually mean because it's interesting that you used the op ed and the investigative journalism versus a newspaper article because those artifacts actually had. They have criteria to them.
Margaret Kelsey [00:15:44]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:15:44]:
There are specific things that you do and don't do in them that make them that thing and they've decided it. And I think that we just need. To your point, every company needs to decide for themselves what is a case study to us and then call it whatever that thing is.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:03]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:16:04]:
Right. And I think that level of specificity from the very top all the way through will make quality. This is going back to last week's episode or two weeks ago. I don't know when this is going out, but when we talked about scaling taste, if we start by being more specific about the baseline criteria for a thing, that's going to be easier. Easier to achieve. Because when I was studying journalism, it was like I knew the who, what, when, where. Like, I had to put that in the beginning. And if I didn't, it wasn't a high quality newspaper article.
Margaret Kelsey [00:16:38]:
Yeah, yeah, you bury the lead. And I think that a lot of content strategy that I see, if there is some sort of documented content strategy, which is ideal if you can actually have something written down, it's about channel and maybe medium that they're creating. I very rarely see intended outcome baked into that. We will create this many blog posts, we will create this many Instagram stories, we will create this volume and this channel and this type of media. Very rarely are we talking about exactly what the consistent message is or the consistent purpose of that program would be.
Devin Bramhall [00:17:16]:
Yeah. And it's. If you think about it from that perspective, it's almost like a WYSIWYG website builder.
Margaret Kelsey [00:17:23]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:17:23]:
Because then you're like, okay, there's a list of outcomes which are tied back to our company objectives and there's a list of channels that we currently have. And it's like. And so those have the mediums in it. And then you're like, okay, like part one of plan is putting together the pieces of what we already have, seeing what we think, like what how much impact of each outcome we can generate from that. And then that influences. Oh, that's not enough. That's not gonna. That's not gonna go big enough to achieve the whatever volume of increase that we're tasked with or even just the outcome overall.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:08]:
And that's when you're like, oh, we might need a net new channel or a net new whatever.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:14]:
I'm going back to when I first started to advise and consult. I put together this thing that was like. It was almost like you could play marketing Mad Libs with it and pick one out of each one. These are all my variables of things that we should be talking about in marketing.
Devin Bramhall [00:18:35]:
I love this.
Margaret Kelsey [00:18:36]:
There is the audience and stage of the journey, right? Who are we actually targeting and how well do they actually know about us or not know about us or how close are they? And the thing that we also described is actually not a linear journey whatsoever, but that's fine. Like, who are they and how much do they know about us? Let's say there's like the offer, the message, like, what are you Trying to say, what are you trying to promise? There's the actual channel that lives in, right. It could be email, it could be even like sms, it could be telemarketing, it could be blog posts, it could be social. And there's a bunch of ones in there. There's the content type, right. Like the format of it, whether it's audio, video, written words, even digital events, webinars, whatnot.
Margaret Kelsey [00:19:18]:
There's then the conversion opportunity of the prompting, like outside of just the message of what you're trying to say, what's the thing that you're trying to get them to do? And then there's the timing, right. Of like, when does this actually hit? Is it a time of day, a time of year, or is it based on a time of them doing something else that then you actually time that marketing message and you can play with all of those variables, right. And that's where I think people are like, oh, I'm just going to create LinkedIn content, right. There's 20 other variables that you actually don't know that you're even playing around with when you just create LinkedIn content.
Devin Bramhall [00:19:54]:
Yeah, yeah. And it's the anti, early days of content marketing where we have graduated from the days of we have to be everywhere and learned that actual marketing strategy is getting the greatest results with the least amount of effort. And results aren't just numbers, it's also the intangibles. Like, do are we building a community here?
Margaret Kelsey [00:20:23]:
Is this awareness and affinity?
Devin Bramhall [00:20:25]:
Yeah. And I. That's what makes it really fun because to me, most of what we've seen in terms of playbooks and common marketing strategies are just marketing plans. It's just do this then that, right, but strategy is, ooh, like with my client right now, given their audiences, because they have three different member types and I'm like, okay. And they have a small team and so I'm only like, I can only go to them with something where we can make a huge impact and so doing fewer things. And so what that forces me to do is go deep.
Devin Bramhall [00:21:05]:
Right. I'm going into transactional emails, I'm going into. I'm using actually a lot of data because that helps me find the kernel, like the thing that will unlock more versus just being like, okay, if we do enough stuff, maybe something will happen.
Margaret Kelsey [00:21:24]:
Yeah, yeah. And finding those crossover points of if you can create content that has multiple uses, right. What I mean by that is multiple outcomes is like the thing that you will miss when you just look at marketing strategy as a checklist of a production checklist, right? It's like, how can we actually create something that is bigger than just, like producing this one thing with this one message or this one conversion opportunity? And I always think back of like, where my mind really got blown was at Open View. We had our core target audience of obviously, B2B software founders that were pre, let's say, series B, right? Like, every one of those, we wanted them to know about us, to want to take money from us and whatnot. And then we also had so many of these, like, secondary audiences. We had the LPs that invested in us, like, they need to have a different. A different message and a different, like, thing.
Margaret Kelsey [00:22:28]:
We had all the advisors that we could bring into the companies. We had even lawyers and things that would help out. We had the employees at the companies themselves that we would want to invest in, that we wanted to get in front of. We had 17 audiences, right? And the challenge was, how do we create programs that work for a large majority of those audiences rather than how do I create 20 million marketing programs for each one of these audiences? Right? And I think that every company ultimately has more than one core target audience, if you're really thinking about it. And it could even just be that you have the people that you sell to, and maybe that's a super niche, one specific audience, but you also have the people that work at your company and the potential employees, right? You always have at least two if you're trying to grow a company. And then lots of companies have even way more than that. True content strategy is figuring out, to your point, how do we do the least amount of work to have the most amount of results? It's how do we figure out a program that has benefits for all of those audiences and not just individual ones.
Devin Bramhall [00:23:33]:
What you're saying about one thing being able to achieve multiple things, One, that's actual strategy. Two, that's the kind of work that gets me out of bed in the morning. Yeah, that is the stuff that is. I think why there was a point when probably multiple where I got really bored with marketing is because it felt like I was just being asked to put plans together. And I was like, this is boring. A client that I've been working with, I had just discovered an opportunity like that where she writes this monthly newsletter for the whole member community. And it's broadcast out, so they have, I don't know, 4,000 people on their list.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:11]:
And so I'm like, wow, you've got existing members, but also potential members in these three different categories. And you have this goal to increase membership in these two different categories. Ultimately all of them, but starting with two, I'm like, okay. And both of them are in your network already. And so what if this newsletter becomes like an industry newsletter where it's you and your co founder are using your very unique. They're brilliant people you just want to listen to, so I'm like, great, let's like, let's lean in more.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:44]:
Make this newsletter a thing in and of itself. Because now you're going to have infinite pipeline.
Margaret Kelsey [00:24:50]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:24:51]:
And brand awareness and affinity. This does two things at once. And since you already have a bunch of people following it and you already have the network around you, it's going to be really easy to quickly make this asset big enough to deliver that ROI sooner.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:11]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:12]:
Versus say I was like, oh, you should start a podcast. I'm like, you're going to have to start that audience from scratch. This is not the time. Eventually, maybe, but it's like the water flowing down river in so many ways in terms of the traction you already have, the stuff you're already doing, and the limited amount of effort it will take to. It's like, okay, great, so can we put this on like substack? Right. Or add the organic discoverability, Do a launch which will also draw attention to the company.
Margaret Kelsey [00:25:40]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:25:41]:
You're all of a sudden, you're like, that is the shit. Where I'm like, I was literally this poor woman, she's the founder and CEO. I was messaging her on Slack last night. I was like, oh, I have this idea and I'll share it when we talk tomorrow. And then I just blurted it all out and I was like, I'm so sorry. I just had a minute where I needed to get too excited. Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:00]:
Yeah, but I've seen that work so many times, right? Like ad InVision. We started off slow on the blog with just these interviews of designers and their beautiful workspaces and talked about design. And then very quickly it became that we were posting other articles about what was happening in the design industry, regardless of if those people used InVision or not. And quickly it became the publication that designers would read regardless of if they used us for the tool, but guess what? When they needed a new tool, we were in their inbox every day, right.
Margaret Kelsey [00:26:32]:
We provided value. And so I really do think that, like, community focused content is the place to go. It's who is the community and how do we not attach it so closely to our product and our product values, but truly in the way that it supports our target customer and maybe a way that our product doesn't support them yet or will never support them, right. Like, how do we can create content about, you know, different things that our product doesn't even solve for if that's actually still a problem with the target audience? Right. Like, the thing that I see time and time again is that a lot of specifically B2B software companies will create content around how their product helps or what the problems would be that then their products would be perfectly solved for. And they never talk about the change management of actually implementing that software or the like, common change management issues that come up every single time. And like all of those supporting aspects that maybe your product is the best solution for this actual problem.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:35]:
There's 20 other reasons why that company is not gonna do it or not be successful with it outside of. Like, there could be a problem and your product could be the solution to that problem and it could still not work, right. And I go back one time, again, I say software doesn't solve people problems, but like community focused content or community programs can.
Devin Bramhall [00:27:59]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:27:59]:
It can solve, like the organizational and the structural and the people stuff. And then your product can solve the problem that your product solves.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:07]:
You just sung to my soul in so many ways, especially when you talk about the change management costs. I remember when I was like. There was that summer I was playing around with TikTok and I recorded this video and I was like, next time your CEO wants you to do something or change what you're already doing, I said, make them do math.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:33]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:34]:
This was the greatest tactic that I ever learned. And I learned it from Cecilia Landhold, who was my coach at Animals. And she was like. Because I was getting overwhelmed, I was like, you know how CEOs are. They or whatever your boss is chairman. They always have ideas. They have so many ideas.
Margaret Kelsey [00:28:58]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:28:59]:
And they often haven't thought them through. And so she really encouraged me. She said, okay. And I was like, when I say no, I'm perceived as negative, but when I can't say yes to every single one of these things because, like, the majority of them don't make sense either, period or right now.
Margaret Kelsey [00:29:15]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:15]:
Like, they're good ideas that just make the biggest challenge, right. And CEOs never think about at the same time that they've given you an objective and how this thing, this idea they have might play into it. These. It's like they. They live. It's like Jekyll and Hyde. They're two separate brains in there and that they have in the same brain.
Devin Bramhall [00:29:35]:
And so she said, next time it happens, come at it from a, Like, a curious place where you say, oh, that's an interesting idea. Ask them to, like, specific questions that make them reason it out themselves. Okay, so who do you think would be best to implement that? Who are you thinking for that? It's. Oh, okay. And what are you thinking that we'll take off their plate or what will we remove? And how much budget were you imagining investing in this? And it's none. Okay. Where were you going to start?
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:08]:
Yeah, so how would it be successful if we don't have somebody to do it and we don't have the budget to do it, and we don't have the time frame to do it, and we don't. Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:17]:
And how does this serve? We agreed on these objectives, so does this. Which one?
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:22]:
Does this serve a different objective. Yeah. Is this a new objective? And what objective are we taking off of our plate if this is the new objective?
Devin Bramhall [00:30:31]:
Well, right. And it's like, but you can go even further. You're like, which one is it? Okay, say they pick one. And you're like, obviously, no.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:38]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:38]:
Okay. How are you going to measure the impact of this thing on the objective? And so it's a great way to make them reason it out for themselves while you're performing Curiosity, because you already know the answer.
Margaret Kelsey [00:30:54]:
Yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:30:55]:
And I have always found that to be useful to remember not just when I'm trying to tell someone to F off, but also for myself, because it's honestly stopped me from being that way at times. I'm like, we should just do this thing. And then I go back and I'm like, should we?
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that what I've seen before is that everyone, like, you get a little dopamine hit when you have an idea, Right. And you're like, I'm gonna share this idea. I'm gonna look so smart and so creative and whatnot. And then the moment that idea has to become logical, a lot of people fall out of love with it.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:41]:
Yep. Absolutely.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:42]:
Ideas, when they're just beautiful little dopamine hits of ideas feel so good.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:49]:
Yeah.
Margaret Kelsey [00:31:49]:
The moment you have to actually have to plan it and bring it into reality is when you kind of are like, you know what? I actually don't even love that idea.
Devin Bramhall [00:31:56]:
That is my favorite thing to do. To be. Is like. I remember there were times where it's. I could. I was, like, actively watching Walter's head explode. It's like he was getting so frustrated because I'm like, okay, so how are you gonna run this? Yeah, and they're like. They, like, spin out and they're like. Or they're like, yeah, I am gonna do this. And then, like, you start holding them accountable for it, and immediately they get all frustrated and annoyed and they realize that, oh, I don't have time for this. Like, I don't really want to do it.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:26]:
I don't really love this idea anymore now that it's here and here on Earth. I liked it when it was just in my brain producing those happy chemicals. Now that it has to become a reality, it's ugly.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:37]:
Yeah, yeah, it's. It's wonderful.
Margaret Kelsey [00:32:41]:
I have a children's book idea about ideas, and I actually. I think this might be a. This. It could be. The second part of it is this fact that ideas, when they're in your head, are really shiny, and then when you bring them into reality, kind of turn into a little ugly duckling.
Devin Bramhall [00:32:53]:
Have I told you about the article I've been trying to write for years called Ideas Are Ugly? And it's inspired by the. Is it. IBM did a commercial many years ago with this little, like, monster character who's rejected over and over again in life and everywhere because he looks different. And then he arrives at IBM and IBM's. This is. You're amazing. And you see him, like, flourish as he develops colors and he's, like, speaking on stage at the end. It makes me cry every time.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:23]:
And ever since then, I. And I had all these other, like, components. And so I am, like, obsessed with a book on ideas, and I'm obsessed with children's books, so as a long winded way of saying, please write that book.
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:38]:
Yeah, it's on my list. I've got 20 books for maybe next year that I want to, want to write.
Devin Bramhall [00:33:44]:
Maybe you need to. We need to have that conversation with you, Margaret. Okay, Margaret, so how are you gonna write this?
Margaret Kelsey [00:33:50]:
And they're just producing little dopamine hits up here. I like them. I like them when they're my little ideas I haven't started yet. Then I'll hate it. I'll hate every single idea I have. Yeah, no, but I think we're coming back to the. This idea of, like, easier, faster, and we have more ways to communicate than ever before. I don't think that's a problem, right. I don't think the fact that we're like, are we pique content? No, I think we're going to produce more and more, and I think that's actually a really good thing, right. I think the more humans that we can communicate with and the more that we can then have our messages absorbed and create some sort of, like, sense of belonging in the world. I think all of that is good.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:31]:
As long as the carbon footprint isn't bad, so, like, maybe we don't need more crypto content, but, like, the kind of content that doesn't have a super large carbon footprint.
Margaret Kelsey [00:34:44]:
Yeah, Devin's really into the environment today, really into carbon credits.
Devin Bramhall [00:34:48]:
And I literally texted someone last night and I was like, there's going to come in, like, 10 years. I just want to go live on the beach in San Diego and watch the world die, like, because I think it'll happen in this life.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:01]:
It is honestly a feat of human ingenuity that we could sit inside on our computers and still somehow contribute to global warming, right. We're not like, flying a plane in the sky. We're not like, hopping on a train. We're not even working at a factory that's dumping pollution into the world. We literally have found a way that we can be inside our homes and still fuck up the planet.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:29]:
Leave it to the bros to be like, I have an idea. Let's make a currency that destroys the planet. Like, what the fuck, dude?
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:37]:
Pique. Pique capitalism is let invent a currency that also ruins the planet. That is hysterical. It is not pique content, but we are a pique capitalism.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:49]:
Okay, y'all, that's a wrap. Thank you as always, for listening.
Margaret Kelsey [00:35:54]:
We'll be back next week. And just remember, you're doing great. You're doing great.
Devin Bramhall [00:35:59]:
30% of you are doing great. The rest, you gotta get your shit together. Come on.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:05]:
You know, you know which side you're on this week.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:07]:
You know, you know.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:09]:
See you next week.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:11]:
Bye.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:11]:
Bye. I just, in my head, I just heard this sting. I'm an Englishman in New York. You're like, I'm a marketer in New York.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:23]:
What is that song?
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:25]:
You don't know that song? I'm an alien. I'm an illegal alien. I'm an Englishman in New York. Also.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:34]:
That's, that's Sting?
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:36]:
I think so, yeah.
Devin Bramhall [00:36:37]:
Oh, my God, I love that so much.
Margaret Kelsey [00:36:39]:
You're like, I'm a marketer in New York.