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💥 Ignite your company culture with the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast!
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[00:00:00] Nicole Greer: Welcome everybody to the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and they call me the Vibrant Coach, and I'm on a mission to bring all sorts of humans to you that can help you build a vibrant culture. So today I have for the second time on the podcast-- he's worth repeating. I have Rich on the show and look, he's got a brand new book out everybody! _The One-Minute Jerk at Work_. So let me tell you about Rich. Rich's expertise and understanding of Human Resources world comes from living in it for 25 years-- and he is surviving! Go Rich! Currently a human resources and employee relations consultant. As a corporate leader, he's held critical roles leading at companies like The Home Depot, and he's sporting his orange shirt today and Penske and Lowe's, which if you ask him, he'll go put his blue shirt on. Okay. So his career highlights and recognition include he was named Hero of the Economy by CNN for work performed at Circuit City, helping leaders achieve superior employee engagement ratings and nicknamed Chief Engagement Officer at a major corporation. He is known throughout the professions as Rich, the HR guy. He's published two books to help people find career fulfillment titled _Career Trust_ and _Unleashing Your Career_, which we've got a whole show on that. And as a keynote speaker, his topics include career fulfillment, employee engagement, leadership and company culture. And in his spare time (which he really doesn't have any 'cause he's doing all this stuff) Rich holds three leadership roles within Rotary International. And if you don't know what that is, go Google it. Go do some good things with your life. Join Rotary. Following his retirement he will become a wish granter for adults diagnosed with a terminal illness in memory of his mother. And everyone deserves a final wish. Oh, Rich, I'm so glad you're back.
[00:01:44] Rich Salon: It is great to be here again, Nicole and thank you for the plug about Rotary International.
[00:01:49] Nicole Greer: Yeah!
[00:01:50] Rich Salon: We do some phenomenal work and it was a Rotary Club in North Carolina that led to our meeting.
[00:01:57] Nicole Greer: I know!
[00:01:57] Rich Salon: So we do great work in Rotary and we meet some terrific people and some phenomenal guest speakers like yourself.
[00:02:05] Nicole Greer: Oh yeah. I love the Rotary. They keep asking me to come talk. I don't know what's going on. We got a love fest going around. Okay. All right. You've got this new book. All right. He sent it to me immediately. Hot off the presses, _The One-Minute Jerk at Work_. And so you're like, wasn't there another book called The One Minute Manager? We're not talking about that one minute manager. We're talking about the one minute...
[00:02:24] Rich Salon: At least not today.
[00:02:25] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole Stephen Covey thing. Okay. So, let's answer the question that's really be at the beginning of the book. What is the impact of jerk-like behavior in the workplace?
[00:02:36] Rich Salon: You know, jerk behavior formerly known as inappropriate behavior --or if you want to say offensive behavior for variety-- creates absenteeism, creates turnover, creates a lack of trust, creates a lack of productivity, and then, oh, it erodes the company's profits and, it can damage the company's brand. So jerk behavior has no place at work. And, it's time we stop tolerating it, frankly.
[00:03:06] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And here's what I think, Rich, and I know the book talks about it, is that when we allow the jerk behavior to go on we're going to lose some of our best people. Because they're like, I'm not going to put up with this. I gotta get my resume together.
[00:03:23] Rich Salon: Talent has options. We've heard that before. And look, maybe the grass is greener on the other side based on how people, how they're treated. People want to be respected. They want to work in a courteous environment. Not much to ask, but why doesn't that happen automatically? That's where the jerks come in and spoil it for too many.
[00:03:49] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. So this book, y'all, there's a lot of humor just in the names of these people, but what Rich has done is he's gone in here and he's got a litany of people that he's named so that when you read the book, or really it's a resource book is what I'm going to call it.
[00:04:07] Rich Salon: That's a good analogy. It's you know, you, you think of a offensive behavior and I, I created 26 personas like Condescending Connie and Nasty-Gram Nate. Oh personally, Nasty-Gram Nate's one of the guys at work that drives me crazy.
[00:04:23] You know, and then there's Sherry Shirk and Intimidating Ian. And and none of them have a place at work. But there's hope for each of them. We're, we're not tossing them out. We're not toss them out on their, on their heels. Everybody should be given a chance to turn for the best.
[00:04:42] Nicole Greer: Oh, I couldn't agree more. And so he just let onto a bunch of these names. But when you were hearing them, you know, you were like, Sherry Shirk, which means she ain't doing what she's supposed to be doing. She's letting everybody else clean up after her. You know, I bet you you were like, oh we don't have Sherry, we have Susan. You know? You're, you listen to some of these words, right? Like, so the first one is Backstabbing Brian. So let's kinda look closely at one of these little jerks at work. All right, so it says, "Backstabbing Brian." I'm on page three. It says, "Backstabbing Brian may initially charm you with manipulation to make you feel comfortable, but his underlying intent is to likely drag you down to make himself look better. For him, betraying others and destroying someone's work may feel like recreation. His behavior may be rooted in jealousy, insecurity, or he just wants more attention. Protecting his own lies may be another motive for backstabbing in the hope that truth will not surface. Spreading false rumors, degrading your work and making derogatory remarks about you are never acceptable."
[00:05:42] Rich Salon: It's all about Brian in Brian's eyes. This is the epitome of the self-centered worker, he would, he would throw you under the bus for a bag of chips or a Big Mac and fries. It's all about Brian and making him look good. Or more importantly, not making him look bad. So, Backstabbing Brian is ruthless and for whatever reason he is exhibiting this behavior. I guess the best news is he's not aware of it. And if he's not aware of it, it's a blind spot and bringing it to his attention in the right manner can turn him for the best. Worst case scenario, he's been doing it for years and the people above him condone it. The people around him and people above him, and people that have groomed him and developed him, say, "There's nothing wrong with what he's doing." Well, unfortunately that limited view is not helping the work engagement within the department. So, Backstabbing Brian needs to be dealt with. So I made him kind of first chapter for a reason, because that's a baddie, you know? That person is toxic, can bring down the whole department and, and really hurt the brand. Can make senior leadership look, look poor. So Backstabbing Brian needs to be dealt with. And how you do this is on a case by case basis. The one size fits one methodology works much better than a one size fits all.
[00:07:17] Nicole Greer: Absolutely. Okay. So, so we've got Brian in our business or we've got Teflon Tom or Political Patty, or Wesley the Weasel. That one's hilarious. We've got any of these jerks. What are your suggestions? How does a leader like-- first of all, you have to wake up. And I love what you said about Brian might have a blind spot, and what we mean by that, folks, is that he lacks self-awareness.
[00:07:43] Rich Salon: I agree. First of all, hope is, hope is not a strategy. A remedy is that you can't hope that it'll go away on its own because that is near useless, if not completely useless. So seeking to understand, take a little bit of effort, little bit of time to figure out why. And peel back the onion a little bit. Is it short term? Is it long term? Is there something happening to them personally? Is there something at work? Do they have a new boss or they have a new leader? Just look at it, but don't spend too much time on analyzing it. 'Cause the focus is how to deal with it.
[00:08:24] And based on what you learn maybe you take HR as a partner, maybe. Maybe you take the person's boss. Maybe you take a, a trusted coworker as a partner just to validate some of the observations. This is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm seeing. You know, what is your take? Make sure that you're not being overly sensitive and make sure you're seeing it through the same lens as another reasonable person. And then determining, based on the severity, the length, based on the situation. Again, one size fits one. Who's going to build a bridge with Brian in this example? Or Patty or, or Connie? My advice: how you meet with a person and who meets with a person is incredibly sensitive.
[00:09:08] First of all, you're taking the person's boss in there with you for a chat that can send off some alarms with a person could become incredibly defensive, so be mindful of that. I think personally, a one-on-one with a person, as a first discussion, works best. Now and where you walk in and you meet at a desk and you've got a portfolio of company policies and a potload of handwritten notes, say, Brian, we gotta talk about something bud. Probably not the best way to set the tone. To not only get his attention, but to, to make sure he doesn't come up in a defensive posture. So. Have the conversation, you know, blank slate. Just start with talk versus a stack of company policies, company's code of ethics, and tell them what he violated.
[00:10:04] You know, the best way, reach the person. And by the way, doing this, it takes courage. Some people are resistant, but there is something in it for you. If you're doing this, raises your stature. Okay. It shows that you're not afraid to deal with hard issues. It also shows that you are reaching out to help somebody. And that's the cornerstone of of a business. Where I come from, only rocket science is rocket science. Everything else is pretty simple. It's collaboration, people working together in a courteous, collaborative manner to get stuff done. Sometimes you have to address some hard issues, and once in a while, you're going to have to deliver some tough love. You know, you're going to have to tell somebody something that they probably didn't want to hear. But you're doing it for the team, the department, the organization, and the person.
[00:11:02] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Little last thing. Don't miss what he said. He's talking about scope right there. He said for the person, for the team, and for the organization. So, you know, every conversation you ever have with somebody, especially if you're going to do what we call constructive feedback, right? Which is what you need to do with your jerks. You need to have constructive feedback. Is that you're going to have to make sure that they understand, you know, this is not just about you. You're having an impact on your coworkers, like Sherry Shirk, is that what, did I get it right? Sherry Shirk?
[00:11:31] Rich Salon: Yeah, Sherry Shirk.
[00:11:32] Nicole Greer: She is definitely impacting her coworkers. This guy's walking around with a knife, Backstabbing Brian. I mean, we have to wake people up to the fact that they're not working in a bubble, you know? They, they have this thing that they say, Rich, that I just, I do not like it. I don't even know where it came from. I need to research, I need to Chat GPT it. But they say he's an independent contributor. Oh, I hate that language so much. I don't know where it came from, but I'm like, there are independent contributors or whatever they're called. I mean, we're all on a team at some level, so I don't even understand that. But the thing I was going to say about sitting people down is, you know, Rich, one of the things that's true about most of us HR folks is that we really do care about people, or we wouldn't have got into this part of the biz.
[00:12:17] Rich Salon: Absolutely. And, and you talk about a vibrant culture. You know, what, what does an organization want? Have they realized that culture is more important than strategy and operations together? Because it is, and building a vibrant culture means people working together, they're collaborating together, that they're getting along. They have a shared vision and they have shared values and, and the fewer jerks in the workplace to upset that vibrant culture-- it's worth its weight. I mean, yeah, analysis. You can't do business without analysis. Gotta have strategy, gotta have operations, gotta have engagement.
[00:12:56] Nicole Greer: Right, products, services. Gotta have all that.
[00:12:58] Rich Salon: But it starts with culture. It starts with a culture. You can have all those other pieces and they're rocking and rolling. They're phenomenal, but, again, if you don't have a culture where people are working together, sharing the values and agree to the same mission and how we're going to get there, you're going to have a tough time being successful as an organization.
[00:13:22] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right. And you know, when I look at all the names of these guys and gals, which again, I think are uh, fantastic. Dirty Look Dan, Confrontational Cathy, Nasty-Gram Nate, Rumor Mill Roger. I mean, what I think is underneath the jerk part. It's like a lack of a character trait. Right? My favorite one though of all is on page 17. Pessimistic Pete. Okay? Because I, as you know, Rich, am a flaming optimist.
[00:13:53] Rich Salon: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:54] Nicole Greer: And just when I'm around Pessimistic Pete, I'm just like this guy's killing me. He's absolutely killing me and it's like an energy thing. So optimism is a character trait and Pete does not have good character. He's lacking optimism.
[00:14:09] Rich Salon: Pessimistic Pete. He's, he's probably the biggest head scratcher on the list. It's like, what is going on? The guy that shows up and, and, and he says, That'll never work. Or The boss will never go for that
[00:14:23] Nicole Greer: That's right. It's not in the budget.
[00:14:25] Rich Salon: Exactly. Exactly. Find every excuse possible to not move forward with something or to consider some ideas. Oh, and there's always, we already tried that once.
[00:14:36] Nicole Greer: Right in 1974.
[00:14:39] Rich Salon: Exactly. So pessimistic, Pete, and listen, he just sucks the energy right out of the department, right out of the work group. And in fact, there will be people that will work around Pessimistic Pete. So, they'll have a pre-meeting, have a pre-meeting without pessimistic Pete and saying, this is what we're going to do because Pete's going to be in the room with us at two this afternoon. I think this is our play, blah, blah, blah. Let's take the, let's take the bullets out of Pete's gun as soon as he arrives. And yeah, I know it's
[00:15:12] Nicole Greer: So he's worse than Backstabbing Brian 'cause he's got an armed weapon.
[00:15:17] Rich Salon: Yeah, there's no place for Pessimistic Pete, and again, it doesn't matter why. But what matters is the degree. One person says, I'm not sure we could do that. Okay, that's great. You said that once in the last two years, pal, you're human. But the person that says repeatedly, that's the person. That's the P essimistic Pete. That's the guy we need to deal with.
[00:15:38] Nicole Greer: A hundred percent. And you know, at the end of every chapter you have these two things. And I love a book that's written with like a rhythm to it. And this one definitely has a rhythm. So you go in, you explain about this "jerk". And then you talk about, here's a point to ponder. So what, what am I supposed to do with the point to ponder? And here's the other thing, question to consider. How do I use this to teach my people, help myself, help the team? How do I use this? Each little chapter.
[00:16:09] Rich Salon: At the end of every chapter, there's a point to ponder, and it's really a central message. Very, very short message to reiterate the focal point of the, of the chapter. 'Cause how easy is it for us to read a chapter And okay, we checked that off the box so it repeats, repeats the common message. Just to help the person instill it. Now the question to consider, ask yourself the question. Take the time. See how it applies, see how it applies to your current work group, to your current work team, and is it going to make you think differently? Is it going to make you act differently? Is it going to tell you uh-oh, there's something I've ignored? I probably need to jump on this. Mission accomplished. So versus just reading a chapter and then going on to the next, the book is designed to help the reader, and it's, it's designed for everybody immersed in, in a career. You know that CEO of that Fortune 50 company will benefit from this book and these messages. The brand new college graduate who's eager to, to put a stamp on the world. And he's worked part-time as a lifeguard every summer during college. You know, that'll prepare him. And even the teenager's first job, flipping burgers. He or she needs to understand that not everybody's going to act with common courtesy. Every moment. It's not going to be, how are you? Please pass me the ketchup. No, gimme that ketchup. Anyway, it's designed for everybody.
[00:17:46] Nicole Greer: Yeah. That's so good. And I just had a thought, you know, like, if I was an organization, how fun would it be to have this as part of the onboarding. You know i t's like, Hey, we're onboarding today, sign your stuff and here's the employee handbook. Let's go through that. But let's talk about-- and I don't know if you've ever heard me say this, Rich, but the most powerful question you can ever ask a human is this question. What is it like to experience you? And so you could like tee up your whole thing, like, let's talk about team building. And so the first rule of team building is be user friendly, right? You know? Here's who we don't want to be, right? And you could actually pick seven or eight of these and buy Rich's book for everybody, you know, and say, okay, pick one. And I want you to tell us a story about how you actually experienced this human in your career so far, or in college, or whatever your story is. I just think it would be a lot of laughs, but at the same time, there could be a secret jerk sitting there that slipped through your hiring process. Like, oh my God, I think I'm Pessimistic Pete, you
[00:18:53] Rich Salon: I think you're onto something.
[00:18:55] Nicole Greer: here.
[00:18:55] You know?
[00:18:56] Rich Salon: The first week in their job, they could say, okay, over the course of my career, I've been Obnoxious Olivia, and I've been Dirty Look Dan a couple of times. Yeah, one time I was guilty of being Potty Mouth Patrick. Well, there's three personas I'm not going to, not going to demonstrate here at this employer.
[00:19:16] You know, when I went into HR a little over 20 years ago, employee handbooks were, were the norm. I mean, everybody had one. They were very, very common. They're not as common as they used to be. A few of the readers have suggested to me since I published this, you know, for companies that don't have an employee handbook, or companies that are going to get rid of their handbook, or companies that are going to revise their handbook, forget that nonsense, give them this book.
[00:19:44] You know, spend 12 bucks on this paperback, _One Minute Jerk at Work_, and explain it as part of orientation, you know, in, in the course of your employment. We hope you never experience any of these 26 personas. However, you know, in working around people, you will likely experience some of them.
[00:20:06] So we want you to please call out jerk like behavior when it happens, don't ignore it. Don't hope it'll go away on its own. , Jimmy, Susie and Bobby don't demonstrate it. You know, if there's any of these 26 personas you think are, might be acceptable here to Acme Widget Corporation, just ask. Okay. And then we, we'll let you know. No, none of those 26 are invited to, to be here on the team. So good call.
[00:20:39] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. The other thing is, Rich is not saying like, you know, don't tolerate these people. It's like, well, how could we prevent these 26 personas from showing up? And so on page 55, he's got jerk prevention strategies and techniques, which I love. And so he's got insights and activities, and the first one you talk about is institute the No Jerk Rule. No explanation is required, but go ahead and explain that, because people are like, can you do that? And the answer's, yes you can.
[00:21:06] Rich Salon: You can, your company, for those listeners out there, your company can install the No Jerk Rule. Very simple. You just, it states that nobody's allowed to be a jerk. And if you are a jerk you're going to be informed accordingly and we'll help you to break this jerk behavior. But we want to go on record that jerks are not allowed here. We've got way too much positive stuff to do, to turn a profit, to create great jobs for you and your coworkers and, and growth in the future. So again, the no jerk rule, just get it out there.
[00:21:49] Nicole Greer: Yeah, and I mean, I think that that could be a core value. No jerks. I mean, you know we value positivity, so you can't do that. Right. Okay, that
[00:21:58] Rich Salon: I'm going to write that down. Thank you. I steal shamelessly.
[00:22:00] Nicole Greer: Oh yes, of course. We're all in the same business. We're just trying to make the world a better place. Okay.
[00:22:05] All right. Then-- I don't know when that book was written. I don't even know who wrote it. The first stay interview book. I don't who, who wrote that thing. I should find him or her. Anyways, a stay interview, everybody, is like, if you have happy people at your company, you should go to them and say, why are you so happy? You know, what are we doing right? Instead of all of this other stuff. Because you say, do three times as many stay interviews as exit interviews. Talk about that one. That's a good one.
[00:22:32] Rich Salon: Yeah, so, so somebody resigns from the company. You know, if it's six months or six years or longer, it's, it's natural for somebody to do an exit interview. And it's typically human resources. Maybe it's the person's boss, they want to understand why the person left. What lessons could they take? Are there any patterns forming on people that are leaving? Are they leaving for the same reason. Is it behavior, senior leadership? Is it compensation? What is it?
[00:22:58] But the stay interview, you want to understand why people are staying, what makes them happy, what makes them excited. I've been fortunate. I've had I've had responsibilities where I've been responsible for the welfare of 20,000 workers at a time at one company and 3,400 at another company and 600 at another company. And my single favorite thing to do was talk to team members. And when I say team members, I mean from the janitor to the Executive VP. They're all team members. So, you know, what do you like about this place? What's been the most rewarding? What gets you excited to jump outta bed and come to work every day. I see you've been promoted three times in, in five years. That's really impressive. What's inspired you to do that? What are we doing right? What are we doing right? What are we doing right? And then take the, what are we doing right, and send that message to the person's boss, the person's boss's boss, the department senior leadership, reminding them of the things employees appreciate. Hence, for every one exit interview, do three stay interviews. Again, it's the best part of my, my experience. Now, will it uncover some jerk behaviors?
[00:24:14] Nicole Greer: Oh, of course.
[00:24:15] Rich Salon: At the same time, of course. On the flip side, is there anything you wish was different here at Acme Widget Corporation here in you know, Hoboken, New Jersey. And, you know, well, yeah, I wish we did things different here and I wish that, you know, my boss would not come in and be a jerk about every other Monday. Okay. And take it, take it from there. So you'll get a little bit of that. But the stay interview is what keeps them here, what keeps them engaged, what keeps them excited. Why do they want to contribute at their level? Why do they want to contribute more? So thanks for asking.
[00:24:54] Nicole Greer: Oh yeah, so good. All right, so he's got like eight other things y'all can do, you know, on the list. You gotta get the book. Again, we're talking to Rich about _The One-Minute Jerk at Work_ and he's got these fantastic names. So, you have a little assignment in here and this'll be kind of the last thing that we talk about. You know, where people can do this, this really fancy thing we call an organization development reflection.
[00:25:18] Rich Salon: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:18] Nicole Greer: And they say that reflection is the number one thing that a leader can do to make themselves better. And so we would like to challenge everybody listening maybe to do the little assignments in the very back of the book where you actually think about the biggest jerk during my career. And like that one, I'm not going to go into the others, but there's like seven more. But the biggest jerk during my career. If y'all will think about that, that person probably impact your future, the team's future, the company's future. You're still talking about them, you're still thinking about them. These people sometimes have a very profound damaging effect. I mean, we're laughing about these names, but these people are damaging, so...
[00:25:57] Rich Salon: Absolutely, if it, if it's Micromanaging Maria for argument's sake. You know, okay, God, worst jerk I ever worked with. But so what am I going to do to not become a micromanager. What am I going to do to help other people who are feeling like they're micromanagers? Reflect, because almost all of us are in a taskmaster- minded business. We do stuff. We move stuff from the inbox to the outbox, often without even thinking about it. So what can we do? Reflection really, really does help. I had a former boss. He reported to the office at 6:00 AM every day, Monday through Friday, 6:00 AM but he was not to be disturbed until 7:30 and everybody knew it. He was open about it. That's my time to get my day set up and, and reflect. And he was marvelous. He was a marvelous man. And, and he reflected on what's important. He made sure the important stuff was kept out in front of us, versus again, moving stuff from the inbox to the outbox, and just doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff. So reflection's good.
[00:27:08] Nicole Greer: So good. And so is this book, _The One-Minute Jerk at Work._ Rich, if people want to get ahold of you, get their hands on this book, what do they need to do? How do we get ahold of you?
[00:27:17] Rich Salon: Uh, LinkedIn. I welcome LinkedIn connections. So if you Googled Rich, the HR guy, you'll get to my LinkedIn profile. Go to LinkedIn and put The Jerk at Work, Rich Salon, Rich the HR guy. Please look me up. The book remains for sale on Amazon, and it's been a great experience.
[00:27:39] Again, my hope is that we, we don't tolerate jerks and instead we reach out to jerks. We really try and, you know, extend a hand to them. To help them become a productive worker again. Make them that All Star. Create the turnaround situation of the century. Make this person from the most feared one year to the most beloved the next year. You'll be a better person for it. And I guarantee it, you'll find the gratification.
[00:28:07] Nicole Greer: A hundred percent. All right, everybody, that's been another amazing episode of the Build A Vibrant Culture Podcast. And listen, both Rich and I want to come into your life, help you with your teams, help you build a vibrant culture, get all the jerks out of there and take care of business. So if we can help you in any way, please visit me at www.vibrantculture.com.
[00:28:25] Also, just go down for a hot second and click the like button, the thumbs up button, whatever kind of button you have on the device that you're using, on the platform that you're listening to, and just leave a little love note for Rich. That would be so fantastic. Rich, I appreciate you so much for being on the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast. Until the next time, let's shine.
[00:28:44] Rich Salon: Thanks, Nicole. Thanks for all you do. Great show. Keep them coming.