Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Mathematics was once a required practice in the duck blind, courtesy of the point system of the 70s and 80s. Dr. Jim Dubovsky, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service central flyway representative, joins Dr. Mike Brasher for a trip down memory lane to discuss the origination, objectives, implementation, and critiques of the old point system, a once common regulatory alternative for duck harvest. Although liked and enjoyed by managers and hunters alike, it wasn’t without its challenges.

 
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Creators and Guests

Host
Mike Brasher
DUPodcast Science Host

What is Ducks Unlimited Podcast?

Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.

VO:

Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited Podcast RELOADED, where we bring you the best of our past episodes. Whether you're a seasoned waterfowler or curious about conservation, this series is for you. Over the years, we've had incredible guests and discussions about everything from wetland conservation to the latest waterfowl research and hunting strategies. In RELOADED, we're revisiting those conversations to keep the passion alive and the mission strong. So sit back, relax, and enjoy this reload.

Mike Brasher:

We have another episode here on our series on waterfowl harvest management. And today, we're gonna put the machine in reverse a little bit, you could say. We're gonna go back to a topic that we introduced with Dale Humberg and Ken Babcock, but for which we said at that time, we wanted to wait and devote a separate episode about that particular topic to get into more detail. Well, this is that episode, and our topic is the point system. Our guest on this episode to help us with this discussion is is a friend of mine, doctor Jimbovsky, a US Fish and Wildlife Services Central Flyway representative in the division of migratory bird management.

Mike Brasher:

Jim, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Hi, Mike. I'm happy to be here.

Mike Brasher:

Jim, I I think the first thing we wanna do, like we do with all of our guests, is give you an opportunity to introduce yourself, provide a little bit of a personal background, professional background. People are gonna learn that you've been in this field quite a while, and and that you're gonna be facing a a change in your career here pretty shortly. So just take a few minutes, Jim, and tell us a bit about your background.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Sure. I grew up in a small town in Michigan where I learned to hunt waterfowl with my dad and my uncles. We had about a 1,900 acre marsh that was just a couple miles from the house, and that's where I was taught how to how to do those sorts of things, hunt and fish and and so on. After high school, I went down to Michigan State, the big city, and got a degree in wildlife ecology. And from there, I took a summer and early fall off and went to the Delta Waterfowl Research Station on a fellowship.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And there, I got to work with a number of graduate students and professional scientists on waterfowl and wetland ecology issues, essentially helping them with a lot of their research. So I came back from Michigan to Michigan State, finished up my my bachelor's, and then went on to Mississippi State for a master's degree. And there, I studied the use of catfish ponds by waterfowl. During almost the peak of the aquaculture industry down in the Southeast, there are a lot of catfish ponds and a lot of use by by particularly ducks and and mostly diving ducks. I stayed at Mississippi State and got my doctorate degree.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And then for that, I studied the effect of winter nutrition on the subsequent reproduction in mallards. And after that degree, I went on to North Carolina for a little bit along the East Coast and worked on a postdoctoral fellowship where I studied the effects of military aircraft noise on physiology, behavior, reproduction, and mold in ducks, primarily black ducks. It was a time when they were really ramping up their aircraft activity and there was some concern about all that increased activity impacting the birds in the area. So that was what I focused on for that research. After that was wrapped up, I was hired by the US Fish and Wildlife Service finally in 1992 as an assessment biologist and began working with with other folks on monitoring and assessment of waterfowl programs and the development of annual hunting regulations.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

I was there for about ten years and I moved out west to become the assistant chief of migratory birds in the eight state Mountain Prairie region stationed in Colorado. And then about ten years ago, I transferred out of that position and became the central flyway representative, which you mentioned. And here I work with all the states and provinces in the flyways on all things migratory birds. So all any types of monitoring regulations and so on. I'm the the official liaison between the the flyways and the service for those types of issues.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

So, yeah, all told, I have a little over twenty nine years with the Fish and Wildlife Service and the migratory bird program. And and as you alluded to, I won't be around a whole lot longer. Planning on retiring in about another month and a half here.

Mike Brasher:

Well, you've led quite a quite a long and accomplished career there, and you bounced around and went to a lot of places all the while maintaining your interest in connection to the the waterfowl resource in one way or another. And so I I personally thank you for your service in that regard. You and I have known one another from, well, I I don't we did not overlap at Mississippi State, but but I certainly didn't know your name whenever I got there. And then you and I did did connect there eventually sometime thereafter, and and so I appreciated our friendship through the years, and I've always learned a lot from you. So thank you for all your service through the years.

Mike Brasher:

Jim, I wanna transition to our topic for this episode, and as I mentioned, it's the point system, an alternative harvest option that was introduced. Well, I'm gonna get you to give us the specific dates. It was in the sixties, late sixties or seventies, if I remember correctly, but you'll give me the details here in a second. Like I said, we introduced this with Ken and Dale. They shared some of their experiences with it, some of their memories around it, but we wanted to have you on to talk more about this because you've you actually participated in some evaluations of the point system.

Mike Brasher:

So we know you have some insight on this, and you're one of the authors of a of a paper related to those one of those evaluations. So we wanted to get you on to talk in more detail about it for people that may not be that familiar with it. I'm I suspect some of our listeners will have hunted under the point system. Other listeners will have heard about it, but may not have taken the time to really understand what all it involved, what it was designed to accomplish, and why it was offered as an alternative. So this is a it's a neat opportunity to have you on to talk about this and just reflect on one of those other little historical pieces of where we've been in our harvest management around waterfowl.

Mike Brasher:

So let's get started here, Jim. And you kinda correct me if I'd said even if I said something there at the beginning. What what year was the point system originally brought about?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Well, it was first implemented experimentally in 1968 in the San Luis Valley Of Colorado. And the reason that it started was the 1960s were a time of low waterfall abundances as others on your podcast have mentioned. And there were restrictive duck hunting regulations compared to earlier years with restrictions or closures on several species within an overall larger duck bag limit and concern about specific species and how well they may be able to sustain themselves in the future. So managers were looking to provide as much opportunity as possible on species that could withstand some additional pressure while not increasing pressure on species of concern. During this time, in addition to the point system, just as a bit of information, we initiated a number of other special seasons too, such as the teal seasons, special September teal seasons, bonus SCOP and special SCOP seasons, and we developed some special management units and so on.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

I think all in the in the hope that we might be able to provide sportsmen as much opportunity as they could on particular species that could withstand some additional pressure.

Mike Brasher:

Now, Jim, you were not, as I mentioned, around when the when this idea first came about, when the point system was first developed. Do you do you know, though, did you learn through the years where this idea originated? Like, was there one flyway that that was responsible for floating this idea? Was it the Fish and Wildlife Service that floated the idea? Do we have any insight on really where it emerged?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Yeah. And when you asked me to do this podcast, Mike, I did a little more digging into the historical files. And what I came up with through the various reports that we have in our files here was that John Rose, a sportsman and vice president of the Minnesota Conservation Federation way back in 1966, was concerned about particularly the need for waterfowl hunters to identify species in the air or on the wing to avoid bag limit violations. And so in 1966, he initially proposed what he called the Robinsdale system. And it eventually was was renamed the point system.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And his big concern was that he saw personally out in the field that that hunters that were shooting birds with restrictive regulations on them or restricted bag limits tended either not to retrieve them or left them in the field. And he was really concerned about the future of waterfowling if if that became a common occurrence. So he brought that that idea up through the the Mississippi flyaway and Noble Buell, who at the time was the assistant director of operations in the Bureau of Sport Fish and Wildlife, which was a precursor of of the Fish and Wildlife Service, circulated a memo among his regional offices and and his staff. And he sought input on the merits and potential problems with this Robinsdale or point system. So that's where it initiated.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And as a result of mister Buell's request for information, he got quite a bit of feedback back. And there were a number of concerns that were noted. But there also was enough support that they felt that the bureau should go forward with some experimentation to better understand the benefits and shortcomings of this new system.

Mike Brasher:

Well, that's a very interesting piece of information there, Jim. Thank you for doing all that research. I was not aware of that. And somewhere along the lines, someone decided that the point system was an easier name than the Robinsdale system. So so I guess we we have someone to thank for the simpler name there.

Mike Brasher:

But nevertheless, that that historical insight was appreciated there, Jim. We're gonna talk about what the what the point system actually was, how it how it worked here in just a moment. But I do want to clarify before we get into those descriptions that, you know, the the point system is no longer available. It is a it was a historical regulatory option that was implemented for a number of years, but it has it's since been withdrawn as an option. So, Jim, what were the years that it was available?

Mike Brasher:

You can kinda step through the experimental versus operational phases as you want to.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Sure. As I mentioned, it was first implemented experimentally in the San Luis Valley, Colorado in 1968. And then in 1969, they also experimented with the point system at the Shiawassee Management area in Michigan. And then following that in 1970, they we offered the point system to all the states in the Central Flyway and did some further experimentation in a couple of Central Flyway or a couple Mississippi flyway states, Iowa and Illinois, and also a couple of Atlantic Flyway states, Florida and New Jersey. So following the evaluations in those states and a couple other areas in the early 1970s, it was available to all the states in The US by the mid 1970s.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

So from that time on until 1988, any state could avail themselves of the point system instead of what we call the conventional bag limit system, which is the traditional overall daily duck bag limit with species and sex restrictions within that bag limit. But then in 1988, when conditions were very poor on the prairies with the drought that was going on, we suspended the point system due to concern about poor nesting conditions for ducks and and the potential that we might be over harvesting birds with the point system. So out of concern of low low duck abundances, we we temporarily halted it. We did reinstate it back in 1989 the following year and the service at the same time started to conduct reviews of all the special regulations that we had in place at the time, including the point system. But we also did reviews of the teal seasons and scope seasons special scope seasons and so on.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

But when we reinstated it, initially, we we said that the bag limit were going to be no more liberal than that would which was allowed in the conventional bag limit. So during the that year, 1989, early nineteen ninety, the service conducted its review and completed it in 1990 and decided that based on the information in that review, it kept the point system as restrictive in terms of bag limits as the conventional bag limit system. That went on for a few years. And in 1993, the Flyways asked the service to revisit the 1990 decision, hoping that we might be able to tweak the point system somewhat to make it perhaps a little more attractive to the flyways. So the service tried to gather some more information.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

There was a little bit more that was available since the 1990 review. But after looking at that additional information, we decided that we still would move forward with discontinuing the point system as an option in 1994. So the system was essentially available either experimentally or operationally from 1968 through 1994 with the exception of that one year 1988 and then it was discontinued after the 1994 season.

Mike Brasher:

Jim, do you remember what the and this is probably going to vary throughout the throughout the years, but do you remember do you have an example of what the conventional bag system bag limit would have been during the point system? You sort of alluded to this already that there were some differences in the in the the allowable harvest that resulted under a conventional bag system versus the point system. Do you have an idea of what those differences may have been?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Yeah. Generally, the bag limits for the Central And Mississippi flyaways, which were the the two flyaways that most made most use use of the point system, were generally between about four and six birds per day under the conventional bag limit. During that time, we had a number of species of birds under the point system that were were given a point level of 10. So under the point system, you could have potentially up to 10 birds in the bag versus only maybe four to six under the conventional bag limit.

Mike Brasher:

Yeah. And so that would that would be one of the reasons why some flyways, Mississippi and the Central, as you pointed out, might have been might have been interested in the point system. Whereas the Pacific Flyway, I don't think the Pacific Flyway, if my reading is correctly, ever used the point system. Their their bag limits have always been a bit more liberal than those in the other flyways. I think our conversation with Dale and Ken sorta sorta brought that point out, and I I think perhaps that was one reason why they never really warmed up to the point system.

Mike Brasher:

Is that a fairly accurate statement?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Yeah. That's correct. They've always had a somewhat more liberal overall bag limit, and and we believe that there just wasn't that much more of an advantage under the point system to the Pacific Flyway as the other flyways. The other flyway we haven't mentioned is the the Atlantic Flyway. And that it did get some use in the Atlantic Flyway, but not nearly as much in terms of the number of states that selected it as the Mississippi and Central.

VO:

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Mike Brasher:

The next thing I wanna talk about here are objectives behind the point system. You've alluded already to some of the justification behind its development and its use, but I also know that we have specific objectives, or at least we've tried to come up with, and historically speaking, to come up with objectives behind certain harvest regulation options or packages, so the point system was certainly no different. There were some very specific objectives that I think were listed as what we were trying to achieve or help achieve through it. So can you go through those? What were the objectives behind this alternative point system framework?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Sure. I'll I'll go over the primary objectives and then maybe expound on those a little bit. But there were really two primary objectives of the point system. The first was to direct harvest pressure towards certain species and sexes of ducks and away from others based on the need for those species and sexes protection from from harvest or their their harvest potential essentially. And the second primary objective was to reduce bag limit violations by eliminating the need for hunters to identify ducks in flight.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

It's gotta be one of the most disheartening things as a duck hunter myself. If you shoot at something and go to pick it up and you realize it's not what you thought it was. And and if you have particularly, if you have restricted bag limits and you make a mistake in identifying something in flight, it could limit your opportunities for the rest of that day. So those were the two primary objectives of the point system. And as I mentioned, the 1960s were a low time of low duck abundances overall and for a number of species.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

We had in the early 1960s, we had closures on canvas backs and redheads. So if you shot one of those, you were in real trouble. But at the same time, coming out of of years of fairly plentiful ducks and fairly liberal bag limits and recognizing that all the different species of ducks have different harvest potential based on their life history, Managers really wanted to provide sportsmen with with as much opportunity as as they could out in the field. So that's we were looking for different ways to provide those those additional opportunities. So managers felt, as I mentioned, the essentially founder of the point system, they felt that many birds were being left in the field due under the conventional bag limit system because the hunters identify ability to identify ducks wasn't all that great.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

So they wanted to avoid that wastage of ducks, and they also wanted to to limit the inadvertent violations of people who hunters who just simply made a mistake. So the whole idea then was just of of the point system was that instead of having to identify birds on the wing before shooting, hunters could shoot a bird, identify it in the hand to avoid accidental back limit violations. And since it was unnecessary to identify the bird until it was in the hand, theoretically, hunters, if they could identify all the different different species of ducks that they shot would never have an unintentional violation. And we'd be able to to direct harvest and provide opportunities to those species that that most could withstand that harvest pressure.

Mike Brasher:

Jim, this is another useful demonstration of how harvest management is related not only to understanding what the needs of the birds are, at least understanding how population dynamics of the birds are affected by harvest harvest regulations and in the harvest that results, but but also needing to understand the interaction of the of the hunters in this whole system and understanding how they react to the regulations that we put in place and and wanting to provide opportunity without putting them at risk, unnecessary risk of violation. And so, you know, it's it's easy to think about or to suggest that we just implement harvest regulations that are best for the birds. But number one, you know, what is best for the birds really even mean? But then there's also the very real aspect of this that the regulations are in place to to enable responsible use of this resource. And so that certainly gets complicated when you layer in human human needs on top of biological needs of the populations, and and so this is certainly another example of that.

Mike Brasher:

I wanna move on here and and actually describe have you describe how the point system works? Are people that have hunted under this system will will know this, and they'll probably enjoy a trip down memory lane to think back to the days where they were doing these calculations in their mind as they were harvesting birds. But for those that may not may not be familiar with the point system, have not hunted under the point system, describe how it worked for us.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Sure. Well, under the point system, each species and sex of duck was assigned a point level. For example, 10 points or 35 points or 70 points. And the regulations set the number of points that a hunter could attain each day. And although it varied a little bit, typically, was a 100 points.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

So if you could shoot all 10 birds out there, you could get up to 10 birds a day. And the idea was then when a hunter shot a duck, they would retrieve it, bring it back to the blind, identify it in the hand, and then determine the number of points a duck was worth. And and most hunters during this time period had a little sheet with them that in the regulations would point out the value of each duck. As a hunter did that, they bring the duck back and if the total number of points for that duck was less than total allowed, for example, 10 out of a 100 points, the hunter then could shoot another duck and repeat the point tallying procedure, essentially bring it back, add the points of the most recently harvested duck to that that he'd harvested previously. And as long as that total number of points in was less than the points that he had in the bag at that time was less than the total allowed, the hunter could keep hunting and shoot another duck.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

So that would continue on then until the number of points associated with all the ducks that were bagged equal to was equal to or first exceeded the total points allowed. And so then at that point, once you either reached a 100 points or or your your last up taken took you over a 100 points, the hunter would quit for the day and be fully legal. Now for the point system to work properly, though, each hunter had to keep track of their own ducks, retrieve each duck after immediately after it was downed, that is at least before shooting their next duck, accurately identify it to species and sex, and keep a total running point running total of points as each successive bird was retrieved and then stop hunting when the point limit was reached or initially exceeded. So that's basically how it happened. You just had a little score sheet and you added up points as you shot ducks.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And as soon as you hit or exceeded a 100 points, you were done for the day.

Mike Brasher:

And it doesn't take very long, Jim, for anyone that's listening to this or anyone that had studied and and used the the point system to realize that there are some ways that you can perhaps manipulate this system. Right? Yes. And I know that was and I know that was one of the key challenges with the point system and was the focus of a lot of the evaluation, a lot of the criticisms, you might say, of the point system. So I wanna have you talk about that as well for those that where this may not be intuitively obvious what could happen.

Mike Brasher:

What were some of the primary challenges of this, of of the point system and ultimately led to some of the concerns around it?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Well, the primary one you you already mentioned was the reordering of ducks. And as I mentioned in how the system worked, a hunter is supposed to shoot each duck, determine its point value, add it up and then either quit hunting for the day or continue on depending on what their points were. The issue is that every hunter would know the value of the different ducks. And what a hunter could do is if he or she shot a duck that was worth, say, 70 points first, If they shot, say, a 35 duck after that, they would be done for the day under the the the regulations. However, what a hunter could do is shoot the 70 bird, continue hunting.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And if he shot the the 35 bird, he could say, well, I I shot that one first. And then potentially, he could shoot a few 10 birds after that and then claim that he shot the 70 duck last, and that was the one that sent him over. So you could reorder the way that you harvested the ducks and potentially come up with a bigger bag than the regulations had intended you to to get.

Mike Brasher:

Yeah. So anyone so anyone that would have hunted under the point system, which should've or would've been very familiar with the concept of reordering, and even for an individual, what you described there, Jim, was very real possibility or or could've happened. You know? There there was a temptation for that to occur. But then when you also start thinking about having two or three or four hunters in a blind and you have this this more diverse combination of ducks and the blind, I guess one good you could argue one positive aspect of the point system is it required hunters to sort of exercise their math skills, but but, yeah, when the more people you add to a to a hunting situation, the more possible combinations of those of that reordering you you could come up with.

Mike Brasher:

And so there was that temptation as I understand it. So and so that received a fair bit of investigation, did it not?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Yes. It did. And a lot of the the papers and reviews that that enforcement folks and the people conducting the spy blind evaluations pointed that out that exact issue out that it was hard enough to observe a single hunter from the distance that you needed to stay concealed from the hunter so they didn't couldn't see what you were doing, essentially observing their their activity and be able to accurately identify the species and sex of ducks from a distance in the order that they downed them. But that problem just magnified immensely when you had three, four, five hunters in the blind and attributing the the ducks to each individual hunter. And so essentially, what came out of of a lot of those discussions was that the the point system was essentially unenforceable in those sorts of situations because either the spy blind observer couldn't be absolutely sure of the species or sex sex of ducks that were downed.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And even if they were very difficult to attribute them to individual hunters. So what we what we saw in terms of the spy blind evaluations and then also a lot of enforcement actions was that there was a fair amount of discrepancy discrepancies in some of the results that they were seeing where the spy line observations, frankly, didn't show a lot of problems with reordering, but individual enforcement actions did. And we really never got down to which set of information was was the more correct, if you will.

Mike Brasher:

Jim, we're going to, I think, start wrapping this episode up. We have a number of other things that I wanna cover, and I I think we were it's probably best to to break this into a couple episodes here. The final thing I want to talk about on this episode, see if you could mention briefly about hunter attitudes toward the point system. What do we know from back in those days about how hunters reacted to the point system? Did they did they like it?

Mike Brasher:

Were they did they think it was too complex? What do we know?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Well, the the results are really mixed. If you look at some of the the state reports that are out there that some states hunters in some states really like the system. In in other states, not so much. And it it probably has partly to do with the latitude of where the hunters are. As you know, in the fall in northern states, you're shooting a lot of of brown ducks and being able to take advantage of something like the point system when when many of the ducks look the same isn't nearly as attractive as compared to states farther south where the birds are colored up and it's much easier to pick out the drakes from the hens.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Some hunters felt that it was too complicated. But looking at all the the information, the majority of hunters, I think, liked it for two reasons probably. First, the identification aspect. I think it put hunters at ease to know that they didn't have to identify ducks in the air as long as there wasn't a closed season on any particular species. They didn't have to worry about identifying ducks and potentially unknowingly violate bag limits.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

And then also, as we mentioned earlier, the six bird conventional bag limit versus a 10 potential 10 bird bag limit under the point system, was very attractive to hunters. So overall, I think the hunters tended to like it more than dislike it, as long as there was that difference in bag limits that were possible under either system.

Mike Brasher:

Thank you, Jim. That's gonna wrap it up for us here on this episode. I wanna I wanna lead off the next episode, though, going back to well, focusing in a bit more detail on one of the key aspects of the point system, or at least with certain species, there were some within some species, we had different points for male versus female ducks, drakes versus hens. And so I wanna talk about that a little bit to lead off our next episode, but then we're gonna get back into some of the evaluations of the point system and and talk about what ultimately led to the decision to to discontinue the point system and some of the some of what came out of those evaluations in a bit more detail. So, Jim, that sound like a plan.

Mike Brasher:

You able to to rejoin us here in a minute?

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Sure. I can do that.

Mike Brasher:

Alright. Well, thank you so much, Jim, for joining us here. We will catch you on the next episode.

Dr. Jim Dubovsky:

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this.

Mike Brasher:

A special thanks to our guest on today's episode, doctor Jimbo Robinson, US Fish and Wildlife Services Central Flyway representative in the division of migratory bird management. We appreciate his time and expertise on this topic. As always, we thank Clay Barrett, our producer, for all the work that he does on this podcast. And to you, the listener, we thank you for your time and spending it with us here on this podcast, and we thank you for your support, passion, and commitment to wetlands and waterfowl conservation.

VO:

Thank you for listening to the DU podcast sponsored by Purina Pro Plan, the official performance dog food of Ducks Unlimited. Purina Pro Plan, always advancing. Also proudly sponsored by Bird Dog Whiskey and Cocktails. Whether you're winding down with your best friend or celebrating with your favorite crew, Bird Dog brings award winning flavor to every moment. Enjoy responsibly.

VO:

Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to the show and visit ducks.org/dupodcast. Opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect those of Ducks Unlimited. Until next time, stay tuned to the Ducks.