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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
And I imagine, like, part of that is relationship building and, like, referrals. But, like, what what muscle did you build over the last, like, eleven years to, like, have, like, a clear strategy in getting new clients or retaining new clients?
Nick:Two things, basically. I really started doing doing this after six years of in house design work in four companies in different cities in Netherlands. So
Tyler:And we're officially live.
Nick:We're officially live. Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:So, Nick, it is currently 2026. We are both in the design space. How how many years have you been in the business thus far?
Nick:This is my eleventh year. I graduated in 2015.
Tyler:And how how has the journey been? Where I think people wanna know the journey, how to how to get into the industry, but I think people are more curious about your journey. I'm curious if you can tell the audience where you are today, and then you can maybe we'll dive into where the journey started.
Nick:Yep. Yeah. That makes sense. I think that's very useful to to discuss all the tips and all the the errors also that I made along the way. So today, I'm a full time freelancing product designer.
Nick:I've been fully booked with design projects from the start, basically. I'm very lucky that way. I'm not going too much into specifics, but it's a low 6 figure total revenue, basically, mostly working from home. And, you know, that's in you know, I'm in The Netherlands, and and so that's quite good. You know, it's not the San Francisco Silicon Valley number, but for my the area I'm in, it's it's, yeah, quite decent.
Nick:That's where I am today.
Tyler:Well, I mean, it is impressive. Like, I wouldn't I wouldn't undersell that. So I'm curious, like, what like, this doesn't happen overnight, obviously. You mentioned eleven years.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:How did this whole journey start? Like, how did you get into it?
Nick:I'm part of a creative family. I think it's it's the right way to put it. You know, not only designers, but journalists, artists, people in print medias. I had a lot of exposure to design and and color and and and drawing and that kind of stuff. So I, you know, from a young age, I wanted I already knew I wanted to do something with design.
Nick:I just didn't really know yet what the something was. And, you know, in in in high school and university, I really enjoyed things like psychology and interaction design and, you know, a few subjects along those lines. Enjoying means, you know, having better grades than other subjects where I had lower grades, you know, stuff that I didn't really enjoy. So then without really aiming for it or even knowing that it existed, I had my first internship as a UX designer. You know?
Nick:And I was like, UX? Well, what's that? You know? So it never was the goal, but it turns out that UX became the something in design that I was was looking for. And, yeah, I've been in design ever since.
Tyler:I'm curious. You said you mentioned, like, you just stumbled upon the UX position.
Nick:Like, did
Tyler:you you apply for it? Like, how did you how did you stumble upon, like, getting that position if you had nothing
Nick:if you
Tyler:didn't know about it?
Nick:Yeah. That it's it's not like I just randomly applied for for places, you know, of of course. But so I did a four year university education. And in the third year, it was required to go do an internship, six month internship with a company. So all I knew where to look for were, you know, agencies.
Nick:And when I say agencies, it's not like the agency you have today, like, where it's the solo agency or a website builder. It's it's like agency in a broad sense. Like, they did, like, brochures and billboards, but also websites, you know, a little bit. So it's a very all around place, and I just asked them, like, hey. You have a lot of designers.
Nick:Do you support internships for students?
Tyler:Okay.
Nick:So as a whole, I just ended up in at a agency where they had, like, four or five spots for interns that would do all sorts of design work. And I just happened to end up on the spot of, like, the online department of that agency.
Tyler:Okay.
Nick:And that's where I first found out about UX and and what it all means and and and, you know, all the things that we think are normal and just second nature today.
Tyler:Like, when you when you applied for this this internship, were there, like, a process there? Did you have to, like you had to give your portfolio? Did you have to sell yourself? I'm I'm curious how that worked back then.
Nick:It's it's I think I've been quite lucky, to be honest, because it's it's an agency in the same town as the White University was. Mhmm. So they already had a a relationship. So if Okay. I call and I told them, like, hey.
Nick:I'm in this in this school. They're like, oh, yeah. I know this school. We've had a few interns in the years prior, you know. So let you know, let's have a chat.
Nick:So it it was very very loose. Like, it was not really I had to send over examples of work and that kind of stuff. Like, once I was in and there was a a good fight between myself and then, let's say, the manager, only then we would start thinking about, like, what's your main project and and what how are you going to sell it to your school? Because I think that was the bigger challenge. Like Mhmm.
Nick:It's not like I had to apply to them, but they had to apply to the school. Like and because the school wanted to make sure that I wasn't just going to do busy work. You know, I I had to learn something. So, yeah, it's really the other way around compared to how I would look for work today.
Tyler:Yeah. I I think I had something similar where you they would be I I guess it was part of the program. Like, the internship was part of the curriculum. Like, you Yeah. You learn the the hard skills or or you learn the the curriculum, and then it's like, okay.
Tyler:Next step is on the job training.
Nick:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how it started.
Nick:You know? I'd like I said, I didn't really know the the the thing within the the design world that I wanted to do, but I really enjoyed that internship. I had a great mentor, you know, the the the department chief, basically. You know, a very creative person with, like, thirty years of experience. And I remember in the second week thinking like, wow.
Nick:I've, you know, I've learned more in these two weeks than I've had I've learned in the two years in school before. You know, this guy knows so much. And that was a big motivator for me to, you know, to determine, like, okay. I'm going to do this work. This type of design work is what I'm going to do.
Tyler:Interesting. So, like, it seems like you were lucky that you had someone to give you kinda guidance there. Yeah. Anything that you do like, you suggest for someone, like, joining an internship, something you'd do differently or maybe do more of, Like, what like, in the mindset of, like, someone getting that first internship, like, what should they be doing?
Nick:I think it's it's you should really check if you're not going to be doing just the busy work. I just mentioned before, like, I had a school that was very strict to to check if that's the case, and also lucky that the the place I ended up at had a good relationship with the school. But I know that's not the default for most people, so you have to really check and then ask questions about, okay, what what am I supposed to do here? You know, what does it look like? Do you have other interns that I can talk to?
Nick:You know, it's it's good to ask a few questions back instead of just accepting everything they throw at you.
Tyler:And then, like, that first p like, first project you got, that must have been, like, exciting, scary. Like Yeah. What like, a lot different than what you learned in school. Like, what what was that first alright, Nick. Let's say you're gonna jump on this project.
Nick:Yeah. Well, not sure what school was like in your part of the world, but for me, they each quarter, you had a main project. So you had thirteen weeks or ten ten weeks if you remove holidays and that kind stuff. So you had ten weeks to do a full project during the internship. You would be lucky if you had ten days to do the full project.
Tyler:Right.
Nick:Yeah. So, yeah, in the first week, I would really sit down and bring my notepad and my pencil, and I would start to think and make notes and do research and do desk research and talk to people, and then I really hit a wall where they told me, like, well, you have nothing yet. You know? Just, you know, where's the first mock up? Where's the brainstorming?
Nick:Did you plan the workshop yet? And I was like, no. No. No. School taught me that's only step three.
Nick:You know, I'm at step one. And they were like they were like, nope. That's not how it works in the real real world, which yeah. So that was very revealing to me, but also kinda scary, you know, because I felt like I would get a bad grade, you know, because all we were we're going to talk about was structuring of the work and not really reviewing the actual work.
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:You know, I I didn't know for months if the websites and the webshops that I designed were actually, you know, from a designer's perspective, sound. All we talked about was you should do this first and do this quicker and this thing later or not do this thing at all. You know? So, yeah, a roller coaster for me. And but still, I think if you're a designer, if you want to end up at the position where I'm at today, you know, freelancer and and fully booked and all that kind of stuff, a internship is really an accelerator for you.
Nick:Like, hitting that wall perhaps was the best thing that I could have happened to me because I it really woke me up, basically. Yeah. Which happens when you run into a wall. You you probably wake up from it.
Tyler:Yeah. Because I'd like that disconnect between, like, yes, there's there's step one, two, and three. What we learned in school, that must be exactly how it is in the real world. And then
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Know this now. It's like the steps are optional or they change order depending on on the project that you're working on.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm noticing during the job now because we're talking so much about how AI is changing things. And some people are like, well, design thinking is it's that and blah blah blah.
Nick:I don't think it is. But what I'm noticing is that in the real world, it's figuring out what you want to do that's talking, then figuring out what it's supposed to look like and how it's going to work. That's canvas slash Figma slash whatever. And then phase three is building slash validating. You know?
Nick:So it's that one, two, three is is much quicker compared to the one until five that I've learned in school.
Tyler:Yeah. The building happens probably immediate or not sooner.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And even on the on the design side, probably building something. I can just build this quickly to validate. Yeah.
Nick:Exactly.
Tyler:It sounds like so you so suddenly you had a great experience. You had you were lucky in the sense you had a great mentor to kind of guide you through. So tell me, like, that internship ends, what's next? Is, like I'm curious, like, what if you were in house for your internship, and then how did Nick's journey into freelance go? Or actually, just what's the next step after that?
Nick:Well, next step is doing the the rest of the education, but let's skip that. So it's just the final year, and that's more of the same, you know, another internship and, you know, a few more subjects to do. But at some point, I had this piece of paper, you know, my my diploma that I have my, you know, proof that I've done this thing. That's something, first of all, that I think is really it's it's something you really need to have. I think a formal education over a boot camp, like, you're starting from scratch, you know, it's not what people want to hear.
Nick:You know? Mhmm. Four years of education, meaning four years of not really earning something. You know? It's it's really something you need.
Nick:There are only very few people that are good enough right away that have, like, unique talent to only need a boot camp, and then they're good to go to get hired. You know, I think it's very the harsh truth. So I had the the diploma, and even then, it took me, I think, about eight months to get my first in house job because I started in house. Right. And, again, also a moment of luck.
Nick:You had, like, the managing director and his his right hand man. I I spoke to both of them. The right hand man, like, a tech person, he was like, don't hire him. It's not no. Don't do it.
Nick:Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. But then the director, he told me, like, no. I I have a gut feeling about this guy.
Nick:Let's give him a a go. Let's let's see what he can do. So I had a very small contract. Like, I didn't I worked part time for them on demand. So if they needed me, they felt like there's a project, they were like, okay.
Nick:Nick, you can come in two days a week for the next month, you know, for you know, at the starter salary. So it wasn't much, but it was something. And after eight months of looking, I really, you know, took that opportunity to finally have something to do even though it wasn't big enough to leave my parents' house, for example.
Tyler:Right. Was it like, was there negotiation in in terms of, like, the salary? It was like, just take this is what we're giving you.
Nick:I was so junior and so happy that I got to the stage of Yeah. You know, having an offer that I just said yes on the spot.
Tyler:Fair fair enough.
Nick:Yeah. So I don't know if there was room to negotiate. Probably, there was, but I didn't have a strong position, you know, because I was the junior, and there was a one versus one vote, yes versus no, to allow me to to try. Yeah. So not really.
Nick:But we have, like, minimum wage and that kind of stuff. So it's Yeah. They they cannot really mess you up.
Tyler:Was there was did was there any expectations at this point of, like, what my salary should be, or is it were you really in the mindset of, let me just find a job, so, like, just get my foot in the door?
Nick:Well, I I only have that kind of strategic thinking in hindsight because, you know, at at the moment you at that moment, you had to you have to imagine, like, I was, you know, early twenties living at home because I was in school still, so I had, like, no salary. And then school was finished, so I had nothing to do the whole day.
Tyler:Right.
Nick:You know, I I could do laundry or or mow mow the lawn for my my father or whatever, you know, to some household chores, but I had nothing to do except for applying for jobs. So I was very happy to get something. I didn't have any master plan yet about moving out or saving or investing or whatever. I was just happy to get a job because that that felt like a lot of pressure at the moment. You know?
Nick:I have my diploma. Now I have to get a job as people expected from me. I then lost that job, by the way, because that company got acquired. And I was in the the wrong place at the wrong time because I was the last person in. And then about, like, two months before that initial contract would run out, they got acquired.
Nick:And then they were like, okay. We need we have now all these designers from two companies in one. We need to get rid of a few. And then it was just like, oh, this Nick person, he's very junior. His contract is about to run out, so we don't have to pay him anything.
Nick:Let's just run out the contract and then not extend it. You know? Right. So that was a trial by fire at my first job, first year of experience right away. And that also was the moment for the first time where I was like, I don't have any control whatsoever.
Nick:You know, some higher up can just decide, look at a piece of paper, be like, okay, this guy, this contract, this, you know, cost and salary, he's out. You know? So that's where the first itch to freelance started.
Tyler:Tell me. Yeah. That seems like a really good or like, I am I was so quickly someone can get rid of me. I mean, unfortunate, like, timing, but, like, that must have been like, there's probably two paths someone could take. Let me just give up and try something else.
Tyler:Or in your case, let me me find another way, another path.
Nick:Yeah. So, like Yeah.
Tyler:That switch, like, what's the mindset there? You're like, okay. I get an itch. Mhmm. What's your next move?
Nick:My next move was let's not try a software house this time. Let's try a startup. So let's see if let's see if this other playground works better for me. Big thing that I wanted to want to emphasize here is that at first, it took me eight months to get a lucky shot, but now I had my job offer after two months. And then there was a bit of negotiating there.
Nick:I could get, like, €100 a month more compared to what they offered me at first.
Tyler:And what was that like? Like, if we like, if you were to zoom in to that conversation, you're like, I guess, you're you're doing your hiring process, whatever that looked like. And then you're like, okay.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:This is the the the uncomfortable conversation, but that you're you're fighting for yourself.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, they after a few at the end of of one of the conversations with the place that I would end up working at, in the end, they told me, okay. What are your salary expectations? And and I just went a little bit higher than what I had before and also slightly higher than what I saw in the job opening.
Nick:You know? But I didn't have the guts to go way over. You know? I mean, €100 a month more. Like, that's it's it's not a lot because that's before taxes.
Nick:Like, I could only keep, like, 50 of them. You know? But still, it felt good to get a job quickly. This time, both of the people being on board instead of having a discussion about whether or not they should hire me. Mhmm.
Nick:So I could see, like, multiple areas, you know, improving, going from red to orange and, you know, in terms of how how much control I had there. So, yeah, I think it was a big step for me.
Tyler:Okay. So you start like, what what's different? You so this is probably like so, like, you you've had a job before. Now you've had like, what's what's you have a different mindset entering your this second job?
Nick:Yeah. I I remember something funny, which is I think you'll you'll appreciate. So a few things changed. I went from part time and only needed on demand to full time. I went to a bigger city, so more traveling.
Nick:I went from an established company to a start up. I was the first hire. And so all of that is different. They expected more from me because both founders were tech people. You know?
Nick:They they had no understanding of design except for the this gut feeling of, you know, I need a designer now because the start up thing, you know, it looks like it's designed by a developer. You know, I think you know the look. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:You can see when something is developed by an oh, sorry, designed by a nondesigner. So more pressure, but the thing that that was quite funny actually is I was so used to working in an established company with clients that after talking to the founders about, you know, their knowledge of the product, I thanked them like they were a client. You know, at the end of a user interview or a client interview, I always say, like, thanks for your time. You know? And then they had to laugh a lot because why are you thanking me?
Nick:We're colleagues. You know? So that was a a silly adjustment moment for me. Oh, wait a minute. I don't have to thank these guys.
Nick:They're not clients. You know? We're, I don't wanna say friends, but we are colleagues. Yeah. So that was a big mind shift for me.
Nick:Like, wait a minute. I'm talking to different kinds of people now.
Tyler:Yes. Because you're not you're you're not like, you had colleagues before, but it was it was probably more client interactions because that's who you're kind of gathering information from. But, like, this time, you're, like, part of a team.
Nick:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. In the previous job, you would go to the user, visit them, you know, have a a day with them to see how they interact with your software. Mhmm.
Nick:But they have to go out of their way to make time for you. You know, it's distracting to have someone from the office there. You know? So at the end, it's only polite to say, hey. Thanks for your time.
Nick:And if you have questions, you know, reach out, blah blah blah, and that kind of stuff. I told my colleagues the same thing, so that was very strange. But it was a reflex to me. You know? It it was second nature.
Tyler:I mean, fair enough. But, also, it's just it's polite, so I don't
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:I don't think it's part of that.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So first job, I lost because of acquisition. Second one at the start up, still in house, by the way, I lost because the start up ran out of funding.
Nick:And when I say funding, it's one of the founders funding out of his own pocket. But then after, I think, eighteen months or so, eighteen months of me being there and this total period of time being longer, there was just no traction. Mhmm. You know? So they decided to, like, really slim down and continue with, like, one or two people, the founders, and maybe one marketing person and an intern, like, small instead of, like, 15 people.
Nick:Mhmm. So we talked about, you know, it's not working. And I was stressed too. Like, I wasn't on my best behavior because I noticed, like, this this struggle of, oh, man. I I don't know if we can keep the lights on next week.
Nick:You know? So we were all very stressed and yeah. So so the relationship was was deteriorating. So that was you know, it was not the best, so we decided to part ways there. So then I was back at square one.
Nick:No job.
Tyler:Uh-huh. A pattern is emerging.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, you can imagine what that would do to a junior designer's confidence. Like, hey, I've had two jobs and I've lost both.
Tyler:Well, I mean, you're still here, so I imagine you kept going. I mean, which is like
Nick:I kept going. Yeah.
Tyler:It's probably like the hardening of your shell. Right? So it's like the the battle wounds of war to be overdramatic, but, like, you're you're kind of building your resilience. It's like, okay. This is happening, but, like, what's what's the next step?
Tyler:What do we do next?
Nick:Yeah. So remember after the first job, said, at first itch of freelancing, something actually happened after losing the second job. I wrote an article about my experience at at that startup. You know? And, you know, it's really that type of article like, hey.
Nick:This is this happened to me, and this is what I here's what I would do differently the next time. You know? So it's it's perhaps a bit of self healing. You know? It's it's good to write about things that happen to you, you know.
Nick:And before we continue, if you're feeling stuck in your design career or if you feel like you're doing solid work while no one really notices, we've got a bunch of extra stuff on our website.
Tyler:We're building a community for product designers to actually learn, grow, and get hired, not just scroll and collect more inspiration.
Nick:There's also articles, checklists, and courses.
Tyler:All based on real world experience from both
Nick:of us.
Tyler:No fluff, just what actually works.
Nick:Check out designtablepodcast.com. The link is in the description. People started reaching out to me like, hey, Nick. Thanks for writing this. It really helped me make a decision.
Nick:You know, someone with an offer to join a startup, they decided to or not to, you know, accept it. So what I wrote helped them make a decision. That felt very good. You know, I made something because I wanted to, and then it turns out it was helpful for someone else. So I decided to do more of that.
Nick:So my freelancing really started with, you know, writing articles and having Interesting. Sponsorships. And and when people reached out to me like, hey. This was helpful. At some point, someone reached out to me like, hey.
Nick:You know, I'm struggling with the same thing. Can I, you know, book an hour of your time? You know? Can you can you coach me or mentor me or, you know, assist me in in what I should do? You know?
Nick:So that's that's when it first started. But it was very small, and I didn't have any online presence. I had a Dutch website for my portfolio, very outdated, and but you could see the first saplings coming up out of the ground, you know, of the freelance freelance life.
Tyler:And at this point, are you still living at home? Have you moved like, where were you
Nick:living in? I was I moved out of my parents' home by then. Yeah. I so that made that made it extra stressful to lose your job, by the way, because now I had recurring costs, like rent and and gas and all that stuff.
Tyler:Okay. So, yeah, so you had a bit more that you're on a bit more ownership over your life. You kind of Yeah. You're out in the wild, and you you need it. If you need it, there's no nothing to fall back on at this point.
Nick:Exactly. Yeah. I was, like, '24, '25, something like that.
Tyler:So you're so you have this as you're going in or diving into freelance. What is Mhmm. What is the strategy? What does that look like? What's
Nick:You you you can see the split of my attention starting to appear. Like, it used to be 100% day job, and then it became, like, ninety nine day job 1%, you know, writing stuff and then making things happen. But it's very addictive, you know, because it felt very, like, wow. This is this is cool. I can build things for people and people enjoy it, and then then they you know, if they want, they can pay me for it.
Nick:Mhmm. But at this stage, it really felt like a nice little bonus. You know? If I could get one week worth of groceries for free, quote, unquote free Yeah. By helping a few people online, like, that feel that felt very good.
Nick:Like, oh, look at this dinner and the yogurt and and, you know, all that kind of stuff. I paid for it by stuff I did on the Internet. You know? That felt very good. So I wanted to do more, but I also had the pressure of next month's rent.
Nick:So I did another, you know, full time in house job this time. So I had software house startup. I went to consultancy next. Mhmm. And the reason was that whenever I applied, people told me, well, you know, we're not hiring you because you haven't had any big projects.
Nick:And while the startup is just one little tiny thing. And then the software house before I wasn't there long enough to really have something to show Okay. In my portfolio. So I went to consultancy just, you know, the the biggest one I could find that would that wanted to have me, and I had a bit of luck again. You know, I had someone reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Nick:I went over there. I had a talk with, you know, a team manager, and we just we just hit it off. And it's really good vibe just between like, almost like we're friends right away. Mhmm. You know?
Nick:And that's I think that really played a part in in me getting a job over there. Still one of my favorite managers I've ever had, by the way, and I stayed there for another year. But they were very, like, back end developer heavy, and I was, like, the second designer. But turns out they didn't really have a network within design, and I was a bit culture shocked also with consultancy and how that all of that works. So I left within the year.
Tyler:Okay. Was it, like, your you weren't feeling, like, how the way of working? It was different. Yeah.
Nick:Well, my like, in consultancy, it's all about billable hours. You know? It's your like, what's the percentage of your time that you are on the clock? And I had, like, 6% or something. Right.
Nick:I had, like, one project, like, in a full year, and the rest was just, you know, keeping busy with internal projects. So it didn't didn't really work. Like, I didn't like, they they had a project for me. It's, like, at two hours away, and then I told them no, but they expected yes. But I didn't want to travel four hours a day.
Nick:So, you know, it it just didn't really click.
Tyler:Makes sense.
Nick:Yeah. It looked like it did, but then in practice, it didn't really. So I had a year's contract, and then, like, after seven months, he told me, like, Nick, if you you know, I don't think we're going to extend, and we're giving you all the time to look for something else. You know? And then if you find something, let's just, you know, rip the contract and, you know Oh, sorry.
Nick:Just go. You know? Yeah. So that's that's beneficial for all of us because I wasn't happy. You know?
Nick:And it was an opportunity for me to leave early. And for them, it was useful because they didn't have to pay a salary anymore to someone who's just, quite frankly, just costing them money.
Tyler:Yeah. Relatively applicable split there.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I I had a good time with those people. You know? The like, the lunch break was fun, and and they were all nice people, so no bad feelings at all.
Nick:But just on a business side, it just didn't really fit in the end, and we were all very mature about it.
Tyler:It's getting the splits are becoming a bit lighter.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:As the story moves on.
Nick:Yes. Yeah. For sure. It's it's almost a thriller story, isn't it?
Tyler:I'm at the edge of my seat there.
Nick:Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So then but I did enjoy the consultancy in the fact that they you know, people hire you to go somewhere, and they wanted you for your expertise. So the final in house job that I did was also consultancy, and that went quite well.
Nick:They had like, within the company, like, quite a large company, they had more of a design department. So the the first consultancy firm, they wanted to build a design department with me being the second hire, the second designer, so a team of two. But then the place I ended up at after, they had, like, I think, 40 or 50 designers already. So they were much more established, much easier for them to find design work. That went that went quite well, actually, for for a while.
Nick:So the the freelance feeling that I that that itch, it cooled for a while, for, like, two years. I kept writing and doing trying stuff like community and and having an ebook because I've learned quite a few things from all the things that I just told you. You know, losing your job because of different reasons and not having a good fit after thinking you would have a good fit. So I wrote all of that down and, you know, sold, like, a 100 or 200 copies of of a, you know, a $9 ebook, you know, little things. So still a nice bonus, but nothing big enough to to survive on.
Nick:But then after a while, you know, other things happen. So I, for example, I found out what the consultancy firm makes based on my projects. So they you have you have myself, you have my employer, and then they have their client. So they send me to their client, and then hearing or didn't know anymore how I found out, but at some point, I found out, like, okay. Did they make x amount of money because I'm there?
Nick:And then I was like, I only keep a small percentage of that. If they can sell me to them, I can sell myself to them as well. Like, that was a big eye opener for me.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, because you're doing the same yeah. Because you're kinda figuring out the margin. Like, what's in that Excel sheet? Like, what are we like, they're making a profit off you, obviously.
Tyler:That's how they run their business, but then you get to see the numbers.
Nick:That's why
Tyler:not charge the same amount and you get the same person? You'll still get Nick, but I'm still doing the same amount of work. There might not be a difference.
Nick:And also for for the client, it's less middleman. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So and, again, no bad words or anything about the employers because, you know, of course, like you say, they're a business.
Nick:They want to make profit. That makes a lot of sense. But it's one of the reasons why I was like, maybe I should do this on my own. And now my billable percentage was, like, 95 or 96. So I really got into this rhythm of, hey.
Nick:I can do this. I can sell myself. I can do consultancy work. You know? So, yeah, I think that was the big turning point.
Nick:Like, wait a minute. I can do this on my own.
Tyler:So, like, in that switch, this is interesting. Like, what like, because you're you're going from in house to, like, freelance. There is a it's a different mindset because you're kind of
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:In house, you're going in, you get a paycheck, and you leave. There's no there's there's nothing outside of the work. It's like, what what were its what were the strategies that you were deploying to kind of find that freelance work or the beginning of that journey? And, like, what was different? Like, what like, what's the strategy there as, like, you're you're now you're you're kind of you're starting off kind of selling your ebook, which is interesting because it's not it's not tied to your time necessarily.
Tyler:It's like Mhmm. I do this thing. People pay it for it. People pay me for it. And then you're going into this, like, freelancer.
Tyler:Like, what what is the shift mindset mindset and also strategy wise?
Nick:Yep. I think what you're saying, you you you come in, you do a job, you go out. Like, that's Yeah. That's in house. If you freelance, if you don't do anything, you get zero.
Nick:You get nothing. Yeah. So if I take, like, a week of vacation, that's 25% less revenue while still having costs. So if you want to freelance as a product designer, you have to keep that in mind. Like, you're always on.
Nick:You're always looking and doing. And if you take a break, you have to check for yourself if you can let things go. Like, can you accept that you will, you know, you will lose a bit of your buffer, your financial buffer? It took me a while, which is expected, I think, because it's it's just such a big change. And over here, nobody really likes you taking risks.
Nick:So people were like, oh, man. Are you sure? Do you have enough savings? Don't do it. You know?
Nick:So but after a few months, I was able to just let that go and just accept, like, okay. Your hourly rate is way higher, so you calculate within the price that you make more money while you work so that you can survive a period of not working. You know? So that's that's just part of the game. And all of that is not hard.
Nick:I don't think it's it's challenging, but it's it's you have to accept for yourself, like, it's part of the game. So you have to accept that you have to do it. If you don't like that part of the of the job, don't go freelance. And I happen to enjoy it. It's like the the thing I enjoy most is building something, and I consider building a business and automating all that kind of stuff and and doing better than before.
Nick:Like Yeah. I consider that to be building something in a broad sense. So I enjoy that type of thing. I do I do my own taxes. Okay.
Nick:I don't mind. I I even enjoy it because it's just part of the business. Very silly. So that's the mindset. Like, you're doing like, when you're on the job, like, you have HR, you have a legal department, you have sales department, you are all those departments in one.
Tyler:And if we double click on, like, the sales part, like, that's a muscle that you've you've over the last, like, eleven years that you've developed. Like Mhmm. What are like, what were the things you were doing initially for, like, outreach? And, like, how does that change to what's happening today? And I and I imagine, like, part of that is relationship building and, like, referrals.
Tyler:But, like, what muscle did you build over the last, like, eleven years to, like, have, like, a clear strategy in getting new clients or retaining clients?
Nick:Two things, basically. I really started doing this after six years of in house design work in four companies in different cities in Netherlands. So I had, I think, enough of a network already that I didn't really have to start from scratch. I think starting freelancing from nothing is is way harder compared to knowing a few people already. I mean, I could just call a few people like, hey.
Nick:Do you know, I'm going to do this. Do you do you happen to have some design work coming up? You know? So that that's one thing. And, you know, once you really start freelancing, you know, you have to be visible.
Nick:It's something I didn't really enjoy while employed. Like, you have to give presentations and workshops, write articles, talk about it online, but it felt like I'm doing this for someone else while, you know, hopefully, you get a one or two or 3% salary increase. So I didn't really feel like I wanted to do that on top of forty hours of work already. Right. But now if I do it for myself, like, hopefully, I get more than two or 3% extra, you know, because maybe I can find a better or a bigger client.
Nick:So that's that's it motivated me more to do all all that that visibility stuff. But at the same time, I'm also someone who doesn't really like risk, so I started freelancing in the evenings and the weekends and first, you know, went from full time to part time on the day job to see if I can do more. So I had Monday until Friday, but then at some point, I removed the Friday from my day job. I went to, like, thirty two hours a week. So that meant I had the Friday and weekends and evenings.
Nick:And at some point, that became big enough that I felt confident enough to make the jump into, you know, get handing in my notice and and going freelance full time.
Tyler:That must have been big.
Nick:The
Tyler:Yeah. I'm confident enough to make, like, your it's a good strategy because you're kind of doing both. It's, like, building up your network and and your client base so that you can do that switch. So that's a Mhmm. You didn't just cut the cord and and then just jump into the event?
Nick:No. No. I didn't really you know? I mean, it's silly for a freelancer to don't really like risk, but I think it really helped me. And and going from evenings to part time to making the jump, that took four years.
Nick:You know? So it's not like something you do over a summer.
Tyler:Okay. And and looking back, for that for that person who's debating or wants to is currently at the early stage of, like, going freelance. What is after this eleven years, like, what are the what are the things, top three things that you're like, here. We've we've talked about your journey. What are the top three things they should be mindful of or they should be doing more of that you wish you knew back in the day when you're starting at day zero?
Nick:I think I think the visibility bit is is important, but not per se in the way that most people teach you. Like, you you have that basic advice of, you know, just just pick Spotify or or Apple or something well known and redesign it and share it online. I don't really think that's helpful because it really feels like a school project. Like, hey. I'm supposed to talk about this, and and, you know, it also, it's a bit rude.
Nick:You know, you're pointing out someone in public like, hey. They're doing this thing wrong. You know? What really helped for me is if you go to the place where your clients potential clients already are. So I joined a community of developers, and then, you know, it's I had to pay, like, $400 to get in.
Nick:But within a year, I made, like, $20,000 based off projects they referred to me because they've That's interesting. Yeah. They were sharing work. Like, hey. I'm doing this thing, but I'm really I'm kinda stuck.
Nick:Like, how does that work? And then I didn't go in like, hey. I'm a designer. Hire me. I just really send them, like, a reply, like, like, five or six paragraphs and a quick mock up.
Nick:Like, hey. This is what I should do or what I would do for these reasons, and this is what it looks like. And then at some point, get a message like, hey. I saw you you commented on, you know, on on on John's post. You know?
Nick:I have the same thing. Can you help me? And then that's the moment where I was like, yeah. Of course. You know, I have this, you know, package deal, or or I can do can do a review for you for $500.
Nick:Like, they were like, oh, yeah. Of course. Because you're in the community. You have to pay to get in so they know you're serious. Yeah.
Nick:And they've seen the proof of you helping someone else in that community. So they're it's just they're they're far more likely to give you, a stranger, money to do something. Mhmm. And I was like, wow. I said $500, and they said yes.
Nick:Can you believe it? I was starstruck and and overwhelmed and in panic mode also because I felt pressure suddenly, like, $500, have to now I have to make it happen. You know? So Yeah. That was a very cool moment actually to just to to to experience that.
Nick:Like, oh, this might just work. You know? So, yeah, so I think that's the biggest one. Go to your target audience. Don't don't share stuff to impress other designers because there's always someone with a prettier gradient than you or a better use of of any sort of mock up or whatever.
Nick:You know? Yeah.
Tyler:I think there's something in there. Be the most useful person in the room. Yeah. Think that's that's a good especially in the room of developers, like, that's you'd think joining a a group of designers would be the move. But I think that's, like, having a skill that you have but no one else has in the room is a really good strategy.
Nick:Yeah. I think joining a group of designers makes sense when you're trying to get hired or when you are just hired and want to do a better job as a designer. Yeah. Because that's that's something I struggled with at some of the jobs. I I mentioned I was the only designer or the second designer, so I would only get reviewed by developers and marketing people.
Nick:They have their own lens they're looking through, and that's not a bad lens, but but, you know, they give me feedback in a way that would help the marketing or the development. But I had no clue if the design itself, you know, color theory, typography, layout, like, was all based on instinct, and I think it was good. And for a nondesigner, it did look good, so I felt like I didn't learn as fast as I could have learned. So perhaps a bit of coaching or finding maybe actually finding a design community next to the developer community just to learn would have helped too. That's just me brainstorming right now on the spot.
Tyler:Fair. Yeah. I think I think you did the right move.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And I can I can see, like, the fruits of your labor now?
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's I'm I'm not in that community anymore. They they changed a few things that I didn't really enjoy, but I I think luck, accepting that there's luck involved, is perhaps the second most important thing. Like, I've mentioned luck, like, five or six times.
Nick:Like, I got lucky there. I had just ran into this thing over there. So I think you can you know, for your mental health, it's it's very important to just accept that it's not an exact science. Like, 100 job applications doesn't guarantee you a job. You know, maybe it's 10 or a thousand, you know, or or you'll never get it.
Nick:It could also be the case for many factors that we don't have control over. So, yeah, the luck bit is annoying, but it's it's an important realization.
Tyler:I think it is true. Part of it is luck. Like, the
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:The skill, like, the skill and luck combination is, like, just being in the right place at right time. That is partly luck.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, I've also seen happen that someone had a job, and they announced to their employer that they were going to to leave and and, you know, start their own thing. And then the that manager told them, like, wait a minute. Just, you know, give me until the end of the day. And then at the end of the day, they had an envelope.
Nick:They gave it to the person, and then, you know, just look inside. And they looked inside, and they offered him, like, a a big promotion and bigger salary and more responsibility because they really wanted to keep him. And the person accepted. They were really set on building their own thing, but then because of it, made, like, a big switch and then they stayed. That's also luck.
Nick:They didn't they didn't plan on it. Like, it's not like you can teach someone, like, if you do this enough times, you get an envelope with a big salary bump. It just happened. So, you know, luck. What can you do?
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you're good enough to to show your like, you're I mean, the strategy is, like, showing your value. You don't think could be like, that in that case, that person was really good. So, like, let's not let that person leave. I know they wanna do their own thing, but they're so valuable that we need to do something to get them to stay.
Nick:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in a big company, it would have taken weeks. You need approval from all sorts of departments before you can make even that offer.
Nick:So then you're too late. Yeah. So all of that is quite recent. And like I said, you know, today, I am more or less always fully booked, like, to a 100% of my time, and I'm really enjoying all of this stuff. Work wise, going freelance for me, it really worked out.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, I think for the audience, I think I was at the enterprise seat. Like, it's really, really cool that you're able to kinda share your story. Like, it's not easy path, obviously. So I think it's helpful for our audience to kind of see someone an example or shining example of, like, what someone's journey might be.
Tyler:And that might be different for everyone else, but, like Yeah. I think it's a good example of perseverance. That's what I learned today.
Nick:Well, that's good to hear. Happy to be able to teach you something.
Tyler:Alright. That's another episode in the bag.
Nick:Yeah. Great episode. By the way, if you're stuck second guessing your work or trying to figure out your next move, drop a question in the comments or leave a review. We might actually feature you in one of our future episodes.
Tyler:And if you got any value from this episode, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. It helps more than you think.
Nick:You can can find everything else, resources, articles, and more at designtablepodcast.com.
Tyler:Thanks for being here.
Nick:See you next time.