Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The cost & courage of caring - stories that spark resilience.
Can a caregiver actually heal
while they're still caregiving?
And what does healing even look
like when the stress of caregiving
is still happening every day and
may continue for years?
Welcome back to the Caregivers
Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark Ropolesky.
A few months ago, Greg Fugere
joined us to talk about how the
roles we learn inside our families
can follow us into caregiving,
shaping who becomes the person
everybody depends on, and why some
caregivers end up abandoning
themselves in the process.
So today, we want to take that
conversation one step further.
What happens once you recognize
those patterns, but the caregiving
still isn't going anywhere?
Can being good at caregiving
actually become part of the trap?
Because the more capable you are,
the more everyone expects you to
carry?
Why can a caregiver finally get a
few hours completely to themselves
and still be unable to relax?
What happens when you desperately
want help, but then find yourself
resisting it when someone finally
steps in?
And when does telling an
overwhelmed caregiver to regulate
their nervous system
become another way of asking them
to tolerate a caregiving situation
that actually needs to just
change?
Understanding how you became the
caregiver is one thing.
Learning how to stop disappearing
inside the role is another.
Greg Fugere is a trauma-informed
coach whose work focuses on
nervous system patterns,
self-abandonment, and the survival
strategies people can learn inside
difficult family systems.
Greg, welcome back to the
Caregivers Podcast.
Before we begin, please take a
moment to subscribe or follow the
Caregivers Podcast wherever you're
watching or listening.
It's completely free and it's one
of the easiest ways to support the
show
and help these conversations reach
more caregivers who may need them.
We have our returning guest, Greg
Fugere.
Greg, it's great to have you here.
Greetings from Kingston, Ontario,
Canada.
Great to see you, Mark.
Thanks for having me back.
Well, we had an amazing first
episode with you and we're excited
to jump in today, so let's go for
it.
You know, Greg, have you noticed
how in some families one person
always seems to become almost
automatically the caregiver?
And what is it about the role they
were already playing in that
family that makes them everybody's
default caregiver?
That's a great question.
It's a big question.
Hmm.
So, one of the kind of underlying
kind of programs that people take
on when they kind of step into the
caregiver role that I see
is it's a way to maintain
connection in these types of
families.
And a lot of these dysfunctional
family systems, you know, one of
the ways to maintain connection in
those types of families
is to prioritize other people and
to deprioritize ourselves.
And it's also often a very common
program that people run to stay
safe in these types of systems.
is if I can prioritize someone
else's emotional needs over mine,
I can maintain some connection
and I can remain somewhat safe.
Does it have to be dysfunctional
family systems or does this sort
of theme overlie most families?
It does.
It does.
It's, again, any one of us,
regardless of the system that
we're growing up in, we have two
primal needs when we're growing
up, right?
It is to stay safe and to, again,
maintain connection.
And so, we all learn different
ways to satisfy those two needs.
And for a lot of people, again,
deprioritizing ourselves and
prioritizing someone else can be a
way to do that and to step into
that role.
Well, feelings of safety and
connection are powerful driving
forces.
So, Greg, when a caregiver says, I
know caregiving is hurting me, but
I still can't stop, what makes
stepping back feel almost
impossible?
Well, again, if that's how you
learn to, your nervous system
learned to stay safe in the world.
When you ask someone to just
relinquish that control, of
course, it's going to be
terrifying and the system's going
to resist.
That's the way it, that's the way
it learned to show up.
And when we put all this pressure
on it to suddenly let go of that,
it feels impossible.
It feels impossible.
Is it that you can't stop or your
body feels like it can't stop?
It's your body feeling like you
can't stop.
That's what I believe.
So, then, in those circumstances,
can being good at caregiving
actually become part of the trap?
And that the more capable you
come, does everyone around you
just start expecting you to carry
even more and more?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And this is, again, this happens
as we grow up, right?
That the world kind of reflects
back.
We play this role and the world
then accepts us for it and we get
lodged into this kind of pattern
even more.
That we need to show up this way
in order to be accepted and to
feel loved and to be worthy.
And those systems around us expect
that of us.
From your experience, then, if
we're seeking safety and
connection as we embark on
caregiving or perhaps
reconnection,
does the absence of those in
earlier parts of our life
reemphasize how important those
feelings are when caregiving
starts?
And is that the fuel that sort of
gets the snowball rolling when it
comes to inability to take care of
oneself?
Sure.
Do you mind repeating the
beginning of that question again?
Well, there's something, you know,
very powerful about feelings of
connection and safety.
But does how a caregiver embarks
on that in part depend on perhaps
even the lack of safety and
connection they may have
experienced during the first 30 or
40 years of their life?
And then as they take on the role
of caregiving, for example, for an
elder parent, the rediscovery of
some feeling of safety and
connection just sort of snowballs
forward and almost like precludes
them from being able to step down
once caregiving really takes over.
And so, you know, that feeling
that, you know, that feeling of
being needed or wanted or finally
kind of chosen or worthy of some
affection and love and to be
accepted, those are, you know, for
us to, you know, just try to shut
those feelings off and walk away
from them.
So, you know, that's, you know,
again, those are really
fundamental things that we're all
looking for.
And so, when we do get a taste of
something that many of us have
been going through our lives
yearning for, you know, that
becomes something that's really
hard to walk away from.
Absolutely.
So, can being needed as a
caregiver become so tied then to
someone's identity that stepping
back almost feels like losing part
of who they are?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's, it's, again, it's a role
that we took on and to step out of
that role, we are stepping out of
our identity, right?
And, and, and, and, and our, and
our nervous systems and our egos,
they don't like that.
And they're going to fight that.
I wanted to change gears a little
bit thinking to the caregiver who
is well entrenched.
I really need to understand why
can an overwhelmed caregiver
finally get four free hours
completely free away from
caregiving but still be unable to
relax?
Well, I think it's, again,
there's, there could be a lot of
factors under there.
Again, the belief system about how
they relate to themselves is
important here, right?
How, do they feel worthy?
How, do they feel like they've
earned it, right?
Are they, do they feel like
they're enough?
They're also still, you know, no
matter what, they're still
stepping out of that identity.
And that doesn't feel safe for a
lot of people.
You know, I, I look at, again,
it's something that a lot of us do
where we're, we're always working
towards something.
And, um, and always feel like we
have to earn something and, um, it
doesn't feel safe to kind of turn
that off, um, and to be working
towards something.
So even, um, even four hours, even
choosing yourself in a small way
like that can feel like betrayal
and it feels unsafe to the system
and their guilt comes up.
Yeah.
And those emotions that we've been
looking to avoid surface.
Yeah.
Yet we hear so much about
caregiver burnout and losing
oneself in caregiving, not just
from observing, but from the words
and mouths of caregivers
themselves.
I mean, if nobody needs them in
that moment, why does their body
still feel like it's on duty?
That's where, you know, again,
the, our system remembers, and
this is, you know, this is a
relationship we have with
ourselves.
This is a way that we learn to
show up and navigate the world
with for, for so much of our lives
or, um, this chapter of our life.
And, um, um, and, um, and we're
in, you know, the other part here,
we start to kind of transition
into a little bit too, is a lot of
times when we're in those
positions and roles, we're in a
form of survival.
So, um, how does a caregiver then
know whether something's actually
helping them heal or just helping
them survive caregiving for
another day?
Hmm.
That's a great question.
Um, you mean a caregiver who is
actively trying to kind of center
themselves in their own life?
How do they know that's starting
to be effective?
Well, it seems like there's so
much of our identity can be
invested in the assumption of the
caregiver role, and then it feeds
forward in a very dynamic way with
reinforcement.
But we are witnessing among
caregivers, despite resource
issues and health infrastructure
issues, the increasing imposing
demands of caregiving.
And while it could provide
connection and safety, we're
hearing calls everywhere about
burnout, depersonalization, loss
of self in the whole process.
And if we're actually trying to
take a step back and refocus as a
caregiving population or a
community of caregivers, part of
that probably involves healing.
And so I'd like to understand if
we are embarking on a process to
ease the caregiving experience for
the caregiver.
How does a caregiver know whether
something they've initiated is
actually helping them heal in the
process, or it's just kind of
getting them by to take and
survive through another day?
How do we know?
I mean, it would be, again, it's
kind of hard to say because
that's, I mean, this isn't
ultimately doing something right
or wrong.
It's about your internal
experience and how you're relating
to the world.
So, again, that's how are they
experiencing life?
Are they able to relax and start
to, you know, prioritize
themselves in a certain way and
take care of themselves and to,
you know, do some things they
enjoy?
Are they able to do that without
the guilt and the overwhelming,
you know, burnout and the
exhaustion and then the turning on
themselves and, you know, beating
up on themselves?
And, yeah, so it's, I guess it
comes down to their internal
experience of how they're relating
to the world.
So, it seems like there are
potentially lots of life
experiences that truly shape their
internal experience and how they
relate to the outer world.
And being thrust into the role of
caregiving can really sort of
reinforce not only perhaps special
but pathological interpretations
of the world around them and their
place in it and their needs, etc.
So, when we use the word healing
here in relation to caregiving,
because we're hearing that more
and more, what exactly are we
saying has been injured?
I believe it's a relationship we
have with ourselves.
I believe that it's really,
instead of looking outward, I
really believe that healing is
looking inward.
And to me, what healing really
means is starting to, and for many
of us, it's the first time in our
lives where we start to prioritize
ourselves.
And I think this is a tricky place
because I think a lot of what I've
seen with people in those types of
situations and roles is they think
it's trying to turn off some of
their caregiver role, right?
It's trying to kind of shut it
down or step away from it or
they're looking at it as bad
rather than trying to, you know,
raise their priority for
themselves, right?
And I think it's, to me, healing
is, it starts with getting really
curious about oneself and starting
to learn to improve the
relationship we have with
ourselves and start to give
ourselves the same thing that we
are so freely giving other people.
So to me, healing is, is really
the improvement of relationship
with self.
So, so considering that definition
then, when we find a community of
caregivers who are struggling and
who are burned out, who are
unhealed, leading up to that, what
tends to do the most damage over
time?
Leading up to the burnout?
Yeah, I mean, is it just, is it
the feed forward effects of just
not having any place for yourself
or total neglect of the
relationship with yourself?
And is that just compound over
time and damage you to a point
where you can't no longer function
with the demands of caregiving and
at the same time finding space for
yourself?
Yeah, I mean, I think it, I think
what often happens is people get
to the point where they can't go
on, you know, with any part of
their life.
And at a certain point, they can't
keep functioning from the same
programming and patterning that
they find themselves in.
And that becomes the, the
opportunity to start to engage
ourselves differently, right?
And it's hard to do that before we
get to the place of kind of
burnouts or, you know, becoming
so, you know, there's no choice
but to do something different.
You know, and again, there's, what
I find a lot of is when people are
in these roles, this goes back to,
again, the way we learn to show up
in the world for a long time,
right?
That this goes back to a lot of
childhood patterning and
programming and belief systems.
And it be, it gets really pulled
into the spotlight when we can get
into these positions and roles in
life where we're really
responsible for someone else that
way.
And it becomes really apparent how
much we do deprioritize ourselves
for other people.
It almost sounds like maybe
through the early years of life,
we get away with that strategy.
But when caregiving emerges, it's
more, more all-encompassing than
anything we've ever faced.
Yeah.
I'll take it a step further too,
Mark, that I think it's more than
just getting away with.
I think we can successfully
navigate life with those
qualities, right?
That they actually work to be
assets.
I mean, when we're talking about
any of these different qualities
and patterning, we're talking
about at one time in our life,
these things really served a
function.
And they did make sense.
And they were the way we navigated
the world successfully in certain
chapters of our life.
So, not only were we kind of
getting away with it, they were
working, right?
And that's what makes this even
more difficult, is these things do
work, right?
I was recently reading Arthur
Brooks, and, you know, those same
strategies we're talking about may
have actually, through the early
years, decades of our life,
provided us a sense of purpose and
meaning.
And the formula worked.
But then everything changes.
Yes.
So, when does telling an
overwhelmed caregiver that they
need to regulate their nervous
system become another way of just
asking them to tolerate a
caregiving situation that's
actually unacceptable?
Yeah, I mean, that can be, again,
you know, for many people who are
in that position, right, that can
be another task that they have to
do, you know, perfectly and
completely.
And, you know, it can really, can
hurt the situation even more,
right?
Because it becomes this thing
where, all right, I have to learn
to, you know, regulate my nervous
system.
And it becomes this thing where we
can't do it successfully.
And then we turn on ourselves even
more, and we get even more down on
ourselves.
And we kind of revert back to the
old patterning that we, you know,
we know how to feel okay or feel
okay about ourselves.
Because we feel even worse about
ourselves that, here we go, I
can't even heal correctly, or I
can't even do my, you know,
regulate my nervous system
correctly.
So, it's hard to just put that
pressure onto someone just to say,
oh, you need to fix yourself, or
you need to just, you need to just
learn how to regulate your nervous
system.
That's your problem, you know.
So then, how does a caregiver know
when the problem isn't their
ability to cope, but the amount
they're being asked to cope with?
Hmm.
You know, I'm not sure the, again,
I think it's beyond coping, right?
I think it's, it's, to me, the
issue is more not just the load of
the responsibility on someone.
It's the, it's the fundamental
kind of wiring or system
underneath it that becomes the
issue, that is the issue.
So, it's, it's, um, I'm, do you
know what I mean by that?
Do you see where I'm kind of
getting held up here a little bit?
Absolutely.
It's, like, it's interesting
because we're really called to
question ourselves as caregivers
in different moments and facing
different situations.
And, you know, most might be
inclined to say, I can't cope with
this, as opposed to taking a step
back and saying, well, this whole
situation has, it's not grounded
in reality to expect anyone to be
able to cope with it.
Yeah, why am I putting all this
pressure on myself to just try and
cope as opposed to calling things
out?
And, well, it's interesting
because, you mentioned it
yourself, healing probably takes
on different proportions and
different characteristics for
every individual.
And maybe in a circumstance like
this, healing is partly calling
out the forces behind the
imbalances in their caregiving
role.
You know, there are all kinds of
steps involved.
And, um, I think what we've
learned very closely from a lot of
the comments where we're getting
feedback on our social posts is
that there's no one-size-fits-all
here.
But yet a caregiving community of
individuals, each individual needs
to somehow navigate that.
And maybe actually in a more
prescribed way as caregiving
starts, embark on a series of
exercises, auto-reflective
exercises that ask themselves,
well, how am I going to position
myself as things get more
difficult?
And how is the past going to
inform how successful I am at that
and where I'm going to end up
being burned out, disappeared?
All of those things that people
are fearing now and maybe future
caregivers are fearing for their
own futures.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it also, and this
goes against, you know, this goes
against the wiring and it creates
a lot of discomfort too at the
same time.
But I think, you know, one of the
places to start there is to, you
know, again, this goes
counterintuitive, but to get to a
place where we could slow down a
little bit.
And even prior to looking to how
to kind of manage oneself or what
to implement or what to do is, to
me, a lot of this starts with, you
know, being able to get curious
about ourselves.
You're right.
And this is all such an individual
thing.
And it starts with getting
curious, you know, starting to,
you know, put some effort towards,
you know, deeply understanding
ourselves.
And what is the belief system?
What is the programming?
What is the, you know,
infrastructure there that's
running the show right now?
Because a lot of us look to just
keep overriding it, right?
And we're presented a lot of
things in this world that lend
itself to just overriding
ourselves even more, right?
And framing ourselves as some type
of a problem or an issue that we
have to find a solution for and
fix where, you know, maybe the key
here is to, you know, understand
ourselves and our uniqueness.
Like you said, right, we are all
unique.
There's no one size fits all here.
There's no perfect thing to hand
everyone just to kind of manage
these types of scenarios.
Well, Greg, before we move on, I
want to pause for something we're
calling the big caregiving
questions.
These are some of the questions
that keep coming up again and
again for caregivers asked by
caregivers.
And I want to put a few of them
out directly to you.
First, what is caregiver survival
mode and how does someone know
they're in it?
Hmm.
Yeah, it's a great question.
You know, with so much of this,
when we're looking at any of these
kind of states, right, it's really
hard to understand them when we're
inside of them because we're
blind.
And so everything's kind of like
the hand in front of our eyes that
we can't tell it's a hand, right?
Or we're so enmeshed with it.
But, you know, I think a lot of
the common signs that someone's in
survival mode is, you know,
they're, again, when we kind of
look at those external, you know,
indicators, how's one's sleep?
How's their social life?
How is their health?
How's their eating?
How's their diet, right?
How is, again, what's their,
what's their, what's their thought
process like?
What's the communication they have
with themselves, right?
How do they talk to themselves?
Are they, you know, do they feel
like they're on all the time?
Are they, are they have this
inability to relax?
Can they not sit with themselves?
I mean, there's, there's so many
different things to start to point
to a system being really
hypervigilant and unable to, to
settle.
Right.
I mean, survival mode is a system
to me that is just, it's on high
alert over all the time, right?
It's always scanning.
It's always looking.
It's always ruminating.
It's always trying to create
certainty.
It's always on.
And so if you're starting to get
glimpses of that, though, you're
likely in feeling some of that,
you're likely in some type of
survival mode.
And, you know, the other thing I
will add to that is, you know, a
fair amount of us live a decent
chunk of our lives caught in
survival mode from a very early
age.
And we're really not aware of it,
you know?
So I think there's survival mode
level one, level two, level three,
level four, and then working its
way to collapse.
And, you know, you gave us a
really good example of different
manifestations of survival mode
that could very rationally appear
in an overwhelmed caregiver.
And I think the important thing
about that is actually taking an
inventory periodically.
And I think part of, and we always
talk about self-care and all of
these things, but maybe the most
important part is actually just
being mindful of an inventory of
signs to watch out for.
And that sort of is the wake-up
call to rebalance a little bit as
opposed to doing something massive
and drastic.
But just sort of checking in with
yourself on your caregiving
journey in terms of what survival
features are you demonstrating?
Because you're right, we all have
to survive life and life has a
curveball around every corner or a
turn of events or what have you.
But there's something about that
survival mode inventory that
perhaps caregivers need to check
in with objectively, but also then
reflectively on themselves.
So what are the signs then that
caregiving is truly crushing you?
When as a caregiver, do you even
know it's time to ask for help, or
could you just be blind to it?
I think, you know, it both can
happen, right?
You can be blind to it and you
also become aware of it and,
again, get to this place depending
on, again, the belief system and
the structure underneath things
with you that, you know, asking
for help becomes something that
somehow means that you failed or
you're not enough or you're not
good enough or you're not worthy.
Or somehow, you know, less than
kind of, again, the very things
that we were trying to run away
from, it means those things are,
you know, are still there.
And so, you know, asking for help
is going to be terrifying for
certain people, for sure.
I think, you know, what you said a
minute ago, just to go back to
that for a second, again, I think
so much of this, and I'm learning
this more and more in my work and
about how simple, how simple, how
simple, excuse me, how simply this
could be about getting curious
with ourselves, right?
Is taking the time to get curious
with ourselves and checking in
with ourselves and asking
ourselves just a simple question
of, like, looking in the mirror
and asking yourself, how are you,
right?
So, when you experienced your
burnout, what were the crushing
signs that you witnessed in
yourself and were you listening to
them then?
No.
Again, the signs were, I mean, it
got to the place where, you know,
literally brushing my teeth turned
into a Herculean effort, right?
That everything was just
exhausting in my life.
Everything was exhausting in my
life.
And my instincts, and this is why
my, you know, my story went to
such an extreme example, is my
instincts were continuing to try
to override it, is to push harder,
is to push harder, is to push
harder, is to push harder, is to
show up, is to override it.
And a lot of old belief systems
about worthiness and being a man
and being strong and all these
different ideas, you know, just
got heavier and stronger inside of
me.
So, it got to the point where I
had to collapse to a certain
degree in order to start to wake
up to it.
And that's what happens is, you
know, oftentimes when the harder
things get and the closer we get
to burnout, we employ the same
patterns in programming that we've
been relying on for so long, which
actually just kind of propels
things forward at a faster degree
for many of us.
And if we can, if we can become
aware of that, if we can get
curious with ourselves and step in
before that happens, that's a real
win.
But for many folks who are kind of
left to navigate this on their
own, it's a very natural thing to
happen that, again, the harder
life gets, the worse things start
to feel.
So, the harder, the more these
patterns are going to try to
protect us and to do something for
us, right?
Well, we call, we call on tested
patterns that have proven their
worth in the past, but perhaps not
at as high a cost.
Well, one of the hardest questions
I'd like to just ask you here is,
you know, some caregivers reach a
point where they start thinking,
the only way out of this is when
one of us dies.
What does that tell you about a
caregiver when they feel like
death is the only way out?
They're desperate.
They're desperate.
They're already in burnout, right?
You're already there.
And that's a, again, when we're
inside of it, it's really hard to
see.
But if it gets to that point,
yeah, it's, you're in it.
That's for sure.
Well, there's something very
unique about caregiving.
And as we hear about new ways to
take care of ourselves or how we
need to heed the call to reflect
and introspect and embark on some
process of self-care.
And I think self-care is a word
that's been used a lot, and people
are starting to hold that word
accountable to why it's being used
and what it's expected to deliver.
But if we are going to embark on a
process of healing, we may be
doing so while we're still in the
fire.
So can a caregiver actually heal
while they're still caregiving?
I absolutely think so.
Tell me about it.
Yeah, again, it's not about, you
know, and that's a place a lot of
people get stuck in, that they
think they can't heal unless they,
you know, completely step away
from the environment and the
situation that they're in.
And that becomes, again, this
thing where it becomes impossible.
That's not something people can
do, right?
So many people are in a scenario
where that just can't happen
logistically.
Again, it's about being able to
start to center ourselves.
It doesn't mean we have to walk
away from the people around us who
kind of need us at that point in
their lives.
But we have to start to make
ourselves a center of some way of
our own life.
And that doesn't, that's not
contingent upon, you know,
shutting the door on others,
right?
And we often feel that, that like
one is at the expense of the
other.
And it doesn't have to be that
way.
So what does healing look like
practically then for a caregiver
when the stress of caregiving is
still happening every day and may
be forecast to continue for years?
Well, again, I think that's a very
individual thing, right?
Are there some guideposts that
caregivers can sort of?
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know,
being able to, are people able to
start to carve some time of their
day to kind of be with themselves,
right?
And to support themselves, right?
And a lot of people look to
certain things to try to fix
themselves or try to get the
energy, you know, to be able to
show up better or to push harder.
But, you know, are you able to
start to do some simple things for
yourself that are supportive?
Is it, are you, again, able to
carve out some time of your day to
just get curious, to sit with
yourself, to be with yourself, to
breathe a little bit, to do
something nice, kind for yourself,
right?
I mean, it's, it doesn't, it
doesn't have to, again, we put so
much pressure on ourselves that it
has to be this major overhaul and
this huge undertaking.
And all that does is really keep
us stuck.
And it can start out really
simple, really simple.
And again, it's, and I know it's,
it's broad and is, it's, I'm not
being specific here, but it starts
with the mental shift of starting
to just prioritize ourselves.
And that doesn't mean we have to
deprioritize everything else
around us.
But can I start to make myself a
priority like I do other people?
And, and, and, yeah.
Do you think it's, I mean, at
times cliche is saying, here are
the top 10 things.
I mean, we're not, we're not going
to frame it that way, but sitting
down, I'm not going to use the
word journaling either, but taking
a pen and paper and writing down
the five things that make you feel
like you're you.
And seeing where you can
rediscover them with meaning and
purpose in the life that you have
before you.
What do you think?
What's a, I think that's great.
And I think, you know, one of the
things that a lot of people will
start to find there, and this can
be really terrifying,
is, you know, to be able to sit
down and get curious about like
that, Mark, and not be able to
really write anything down.
Right?
What, what, who, what is me?
Who is me?
I mean, that, that's, that's
something that I got to say that,
you know, 60, 70% of the people
that I end up working with, you
know, are, are, one of the first
things they say to me is, I don't
really know who I am.
Who am I?
I've felt that way before, for
sure.
Yeah.
Well, I think in the spirit of
what we just described, I'm not
implying that you need to arrive,
you need to write five things down
before you can go to bed.
No, it's about having a vision to
maybe, and as you said, it may
take time sitting with yourself
before you can realign with what
you remember is actually
foundational to you.
So we hear that caregivers often
believe that everything just
depends on them.
So how can we help them trust that
stepping back a bit may give them
the space to heal?
I don't know.
Is it a small reward system?
Like, is there a reward to look
out for?
Maybe we, you know, there's one
thing when you've got a tangible
reward, I'll use the analogy of a
cookie or some other token, but
there, there might actually be a
reward for engaging in the
process.
We just don't know how to
recognize it, but that might build
that trust that stepping back
could actually give them space to
heal.
It could, it could.
What have you noticed with your,
in your practice and when people
have had those moments where they
rediscovered self, what was that
sort of reward notion of self that
kind of gave them a bit of space
to relax and say, oh, this is
doable?
Explain that a little bit, go a
little deeper with that.
I'm a busy caregiver.
I really feel like if I don't do
it myself, nothing will ever get
done.
I'm swamped.
I'm burned out.
I don't know who I am.
I'm trying, I need, I'm aware that
things are a challenge to me.
I feel a little bit depersonalized
in this whole journey and don't
remember who I am, but I'm going
to try and think a little bit
about who I was and who I am, who
I want to be, and how I can pull
out those moments in my everyday
life to reinvigorate my
self-identity.
If someone actually engages in
that process, what do you think it
feels like when they've had their
first success?
What have you heard people speak
of?
Like, I did this and I realized
that blank.
Quietness.
A little bit of peace.
A little bit of space in their
thoughts.
Sound like precious rewards to me.
Yeah.
They certainly are.
Yeah.
So, then, why can a caregiver
desperately want help but still
resist it when someone finally
steps in?
Yeah, I mean, that's, again,
that's, to me, that really goes
back to the, you know, belief
system one holds about themself,
right?
And what they need to be in the
world.
And sometimes that, again, they,
people, you know, accepting help
for me was something that it meant
to me that I was failing, right?
That somehow I wasn't good enough.
Somehow I was supposed to handle
it all.
And, you know, accepting help or
asking for help was, you know,
admitting to myself that I wasn't
worthy.
I couldn't do it.
And that becomes more
uncomfortable for many people than
the discomfort of burning
themselves out at a certain point.
So, can accepting help actually
feel threatening when so much of
someone's identity has become
wrapped up in being the caregiver
that everyone depends on?
I think that's a fantastic way to
put it.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So, then what happens when a
caregiver finally takes on that
risk of letting someone help them
and it doesn't go well?
And that seems to confirm what
they've always believed is that I
really have to do this myself.
Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's an
unfortunate thing.
That's an unfortunate experience,
right?
Because it's reinforcing the, the
loop.
And it's going to make it harder
next time.
That's for sure.
Do we have the ability or the
wherewithal to still rationally
assign how much impact we're going
to let that one negative
experience have on the whole
caregiver healing process?
I mean, it was an attempt.
It didn't go well.
But if you catastrophize the
result, you're never going to try
again.
But there is a way of approaching
it, I think, that might get you
ready as a caregiver to step up to
the plate.
And maybe take a second swing.
Again, I think it's, if we can, if
we use that word kind of survival
mode again, right?
If we can start to create a little
bit of safe and spacey in the
system, right?
We can start to see it from a
little bit of a different
perspective and, and sure.
And not, and not have the kind of
pressure urgency and be in that,
to me, survival mode, one of the
things that happens in survival
mode is we're living life, just
reacting to life.
It's all reactions.
We don't have time to contemplate
and to think and to consider.
Um, and so if we can create a
little bit of safety and space and
the ability to step out of
survival mode a little bit and be
able to kind of see a little bit
of a bigger picture here, sure.
But it's really hard to do that if
you're, if you're trapped in a, in
a place where you're literally
just reacting to life.
And you're going to react to that.
Yeah, that sort of mono,
monosynaptic approach, black and
white thinking, however, you sort
of reptilian, if you want to call
it, um, it's, uh, it can really
take over.
Do you think the discomfort of
giving up control sometimes feels
so strong that doing everything
yourself actually just feels
safer?
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's, it's certainty, right?
I mean, you know, as, as
destructive as it can be at times,
it's still certainty.
You still under, your, your, your
brain craves certainty.
And it knows that I can, no matter
how I feel, I can still, it's
still safer for me to control
everything that it is to risk the
uncertainty of the, of not.
So.
Do you think burnout can actually
I don't know about never, I
certainly think that, you know, at
certain levels of burnout, it can
reinforce it, right?
But then, um, uh, taking that to
the extreme, I think burnout is
often what finally pushes people
to, it forces people, um, to start
to engage differently, right?
I think our listeners are looking
forward to feeling like they can
take something from this
conversation that provides a small
tool or a small strategy.
And I'd like to, I'd like to zero
in on, on a couple of things, uh,
Greg, I mean, can caregiving take
over someone's life so completely
that they eventually stop knowing
who they are completely outside
the caregiving role?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Oh, it becomes, you know, an
identity.
Um, yeah, I mean, absolutely.
I mean, that's, that's a lot of
what we've been talking about
today, right?
That it becomes, um, how they know
how to show up in the world to
feel a certain way about
themselves and to feel safe in the
world.
So if that has happened, can
deliberately rebuilding something
in their life that has nothing to
do about caregiving become part of
the healing?
Or is that the healing?
It's a fantastic, yes.
In many ways it, um, I wouldn't
necessarily call it the healing,
but it is a, a actual part of
healing for sure.
And again, it comes back to that
kind of simple thing about
starting to center ourselves and
what's important to you.
And what is, what is, it's, again,
it's not walking away from
caregiving, but what can I also
start to, you know, put some
energy and awareness towards in my
life that's meaningful to me?
Right.
So if that's one part of it, what
do you think a couple of other
parts are?
Well, it's all kind of
intertwined, right?
It's the, I look at the curiosity
piece and the, um, the learning to
stay with ourselves piece.
And this is a huge one.
This is a huge part of the work I
do with folks, right?
Is, is can I start to have some of
these emotions and start to
tolerate them and to stay with
myself through them and not just
give them the hand at the steering
wheel, right?
I mean, that's what we're doing so
much in survival mode is we take
these emotions and we're just by
default giving them the steering
wheel and let them kind of control
our lives.
And that's a big part of, of, of
healing to me is it's not trying
to remove all the difficult
emotions and things that we're
feeling and trying to manage it
correctly and, and process it
correctly.
It's, you know, can I allow these
parts of me to exist and still
stay with myself and to choose
myself despite the guilt, despite
the discomfort, despite all these
other emotions that may come up
throughout it.
So curiosity, the ability to start
to stay with ourselves, the
ability to start to, you know,
sink our energy and awareness into
something that's meaningful to us
is, are all really important
pieces of it.
Absolutely.
So if a caregiver is genuinely
beginning to heal, what starts to
feel different in their everyday
life?
Hmm.
I assume to what we, we talked
about earlier, I believe it's a
little more space, a little more
room, a little more, um, less of
your thoughts taking you on your,
on your ride and you being able
to,
to be kind of aware of what's
happening in real time around you,
I think that's a huge indicator
that something's starting to shift
and change is there's just a
little bit more space.
There's just a little bit more of
an ability to kind of check in
with yourself and to, um, notice
yourself, you know, that's, that's
a, that's a, it may seem minimal,
but it's, it really, um,
it's really indicative of
something much deeper starting to
happen.
And obviously that you don't want
to react to that realization with
a one-off, but rather in, I would
think that some repetitive
attempts and building even
towards, if I can use the word
habits, can actually grow that
space tremendously if we give it a
chance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Probably a big challenge when
we're called back onto those
primordial habits that we learned
when it came to safety and
connection and everything else
that have a 30 year headstart, if
not longer.
Um, and the other, um, and the
other part that can be a little,
um, tricky there too, and this is,
we touched base on this earlier is
when we start looking at different
techniques or things that we can
incorporate in our lives to kind
of help us along that and create
that space.
Um, it's very easy to, um, it's
very easy to fall into the, um, I
have to do this right too.
I have to show up to this, right.
I can't, I can't get, can't get
this wrong.
Um, and to start, um, you know,
living inside of those kinds of
self-rejecting loops, um, without
even knowing it there too.
Right.
So we have to be careful there
too, that, um, you know, healing
in general can't become another
problem to be solved.
And I think that's a, that's
something that, a trap that a lot
of people can fall into.
I certainly did at different
chapters in my life where it was
healing was something I had to do
right.
Yep.
Yeah.
You need to get the A on your
healing report card.
It's not, it's the process, not
the, the grade caregivers spend
years feeling like they have no
choice.
And Greg, could you perhaps give
some hope to caregivers on the
front line?
What does it feel like on the
other side and what can they look
forward to?
I think, you know, a full
experience of life, right.
I think, you know, on the other
side of things and, you know, I,
I, I reflect on this often with
myself, you know, and I see this
with other people too, that I can
experience all of life and, and,
um, I don't have to override
myself.
I don't have to beat myself up.
I don't have to get hot, you know,
I don't have to run for myself.
Um, I think one of the most
beautiful parts of, of getting on
the other side of a lot of this is
I get to have a full emotional
experience of life.
And that comes with, you know,
feeling the grief and sadness and,
and frustration and, uh, the joy
and the peace and the happiness
and, and all of it.
Um, that, um, and I think that's
important that because it, it's
not about necessarily changing a
ton of things about ourselves.
It's, it's, it's, it's accepting a
lot of things in a lot of parts of
life, right.
It's not being able to, the only
way I can start to heal is if I
can, you know, you know, go to a
desert Island and, or go to a,
some cave in the Himalayas, right.
It's, it's, it's, I can experience
life, but I can stay with myself
and I can be okay in it.
Um, and I don't have to lose
myself in it.
And I think that's, uh, one of the
most, you know, beautiful parts of
this is it's still life, right.
So then as a caregiver starts
healing, what do they do with the
anger they carry towards siblings
or family members who left them
with all the responsibilities?
Do they have to forgive those
people in order to heal?
I don't believe so.
Um, I, I think anger is, um, a
very, um, natural emotion.
It makes sense.
Um, it's logical.
Um, I think what happens to so
many of us is we have this belief
that anger is something that's bad
and it's, it's in some form means
we're doing something wrong.
And we, we, over time just keep
pushing it down and running from
it and judging ourselves for it.
And we, we stay in conflict with
ourselves because we're feeling
this way.
Um, so I don't think it's, it's
something that, um, we want to
deny.
We don't want to let, we don't
want, again, like I, the, the
analogy I used earlier, we don't
want to hand it the steering
wheel, but we have to be able to
let it start to exist and give it
permission to, to be there.
And I think forgiveness,
forgiveness is a, is a, is a, is
a, is a big one here.
Um, forgiveness can turn into, you
know, part of this whole shame
rejection loop as well, where we
try to force ourselves to forgive.
And we're, we're, again, we're in
conflict with ourselves and we're
denying parts of ourselves and
we're, we're, we're, we're, we're,
we're betraying ourselves.
I think at a certain point when we
get this idea that we have to
forgive in order to move on,
forgiveness to me is something
that unfolds really naturally.
naturally when we start to deeply
understand ourselves and, um, and
forgiveness of our, you know,
understanding and forgiveness of
ourselves translates to
understanding and forgiveness of
others.
Once we understand ourselves and
understand how we became informed
in our patterns and programming,
we can easily start to see it in
other people.
And it doesn't mean we can forgive
or, or excuse behavior or tolerate
behavior, but we certainly can
start to understand it.
And to me, forgiveness is a
natural by-product of that.
Um, and I, I, you know, it's, it's
a, that's a big one for me because
forgiveness was something I felt a
lot of shame for, for many years
of my life that I couldn't just
forgive people.
Um, and I was in a lot of
different healing circles where,
um, and even, you know, religious
and cultural circles where it was
a tremendous amount of pressure to
forgive.
And, um, and that was really
detrimental in the long run to put
that kind of pressure on.
myself and to, you know, reinforce
that loop of, you know, reinforce
that loop of, I'm bad, I'm broken,
something's wrong with me because
I can't just turn that, turn this
anger off, suppress it and
forgive.
So.
Can telling a caregiver they need
to forgive become just one more
obligation piled onto someone who
already has too much to carry?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Perfectly put, right?
Just one more thing.
One more, one more item on the
list.
Yeah.
Well, Greg, for a caregiver who
may be doing this five years from
now, what would you tell them to
change today to start healing,
lessening their suffering, and set
them on the path forward?
Again, I think that the simplest
thing, it all starts with a
choice, right?
Everything starts with a choice.
And I think making the choice to,
I'm going to come back to the idea
of curiosity, is making the choice
to start to get curious about
yourself.
And to, in some form, start to
make the decision and choice to
move in a direction to start to
center yourself, right?
To start to prioritize yourself.
But again, I think so much of how
we get there starts to, you know,
emerge from understanding and
prioritizing ourself enough.
I mean, getting curious with
yourself means you matter, right?
That alone starts to create a
priority within yourself.
That I matter enough that I'm
going to spend the time and the
energy, I'm going to make the
effort just to start to get to
know myself and to see myself and
to understand myself.
And ironically, for many of us,
where a lot of these programs and
patterns began, it's really what
so many of us needed when we were
children, right?
It's someone to get curious and to
understand us and to take the time
to kind of get to know us and to
stay with us.
And if we can start there, I think
that's a pretty good start.
Self-awareness certainly doesn't
sound like a selfish activity to
me.
It can feel that way for a lot of
people, though, that's for sure.
Greg, you speak of having that
brute force approach to taking
more and more things on, and we
think of caregivers, we think of
broad shoulders.
But while perhaps instinctual, how
can that brute force approach go
wrong, and how is it not the right
fit to take on the challenges of
caregiving?
Well, I mean, the brute force
approach, again, we may have
touched base on a little bit
earlier, is we're just digging our
heels in and running the
programming and the patterning
that's not working, right?
So we try harder, and we live in a
world that tells us to try harder
and to work harder, but yet we're
using an infrastructure that is
demonstrated not to be working.
And so we lean into it even harder
and even harder and think that
somehow something's going to be
different if I just kind of follow
what the world kind of tells us to
do, which is just try harder.
Try harder, right?
And, you know, that's, again,
that's where burnout, you know, is
right around the corner, you know,
that we're getting to a place
where we're going to have to learn
at some point that that's not
going to work.
Do you think that brute force
approach actually almost fuels
isolation and that if we, as
caregivers, engage more communally
or in community amongst ourselves,
it would negate the effects of
that brute force taking it all on
my shoulders approach?
Yeah, I mean, there'd be a
tremendous amount of benefit from,
you know, caregiver community,
right?
Where people can start to, you
know, help you see things that you
can't really see about yourself,
right?
And to maybe start getting a
different message that, you know,
that the brute force attempt or
the brute force method is, it's
just not, it's, it has one
destination, right?
And that's, and that's going to be
burnout, right?
But yeah, I mean, community to
help you see those things is, it
would be invaluable.
It's the community we need to
build.
Greg, we speak a lot about taking
the time to be curious and looking
inward and rediscovering a little
bit about who we are, our
authenticity, and the things that
will allow us to be us in our
caregiving journey and keep having
that little bit apart.
Biggest fear I could see people
having is when they take that
time, they can't figure out who
they are anymore.
They don't know.
Perhaps not that it's been beaten
out of them, but it's been so
unreinforced over time that they
kind of forget how to see that
part of themselves.
That could be a pretty daunting
task.
And I can only imagine that
caregivers might choose to just
revert to caregiving and say, it's
too hard to go there.
How do we encourage them to stay
in that space and not turn their
back on themselves?
Yeah, that's a great question.
The uncertainty is brutal, right?
And, you know, we resist the
unknown.
It's so natural, right?
And it's easier, it feels so much
safer to go back to something, for
the nervous system to go back to
something that's at least known,
that it has some ability to
navigate, that it knows how to
navigate it.
And, you know, when folks get to
this place that, you know, they
look at themselves and they're not
sure who they are, who they
become.
It's often because they're at a
place where the old identity isn't
working anymore, right?
They're starting to, you know,
lose touch with or to, they can
see who they used to be is failing
them.
And, of course, it's going to be
that chapter of their journey, if
you will, of course, is going to
be, you know, turning back to
what's familiar.
And I don't think there's a way to
convince someone necessarily that
it's okay to go into the unknown.
I wish there was.
But I think it's, if someone is
finding themselves in that place
where they're asking themselves
that question, and then they find
themselves back into throwing
themselves into caregiving or
what's familiar, nothing is wrong
here.
Nothing is broken, and it's a very
normal part of this process, and
it's also something you can
interrupt.
But for many folks, it's something
that, you know, when the
discomfort of staying inside of
caregiving becomes greater than
the discomfort of kind of, you
know, getting curious and starting
to move into the direction that's
uncertain.
And that's when things can start
to change for people.
And I think the biggest thing I'd
like people to understand is if
they find themselves flip-flopping
and unable to really make that
step, there's nothing wrong here,
and that's okay.
It's not that you're incapable of
it or you're broken in some unique
way, that that is pretty normal.
It takes a couple of tries.
And we've all found ourselves
there in some place.
Yeah, absolutely.
And keep practicing it and keep
embracing the bits of uncertainty
that come with the exercise.
But, you know, each time you spend
in that separate circle just with
yourself and your curiosity is
time in the batter's box.
Oh, it's a win.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Before we wrap up, I'd like to
sort of think a little bit about
healing and what it offers the
caregiver, but also what it offers
people at an earlier stage in
life.
And we may be called to care-give
two decades from today.
We may be entering a profession,
the allied health professions,
nursing, medicine, where we are
going to be caring and giving of
ourselves for a lifetime before
even perhaps taking on the next
steps and caring for our own
family members.
But this kind of introspection,
where we engage in growing our
self-awareness after a long litany
of things we had to do in life to
get where we are, may be the best
self-investment to ensure our
healthy longevity moving forward
as a professional caregiver, as a
family caregiver, or just someone
who cares.
Yeah, it's beautifully put, Mark.
I mean, that's how we really can
show up to the world, right?
That we can, you know, so many of
us want to be useful in the world,
and it starts with being useful to
ourselves, right?
It all starts with the
relationship we have with
ourselves and how we approach
ourselves.
And if we want to be effective
caregivers down the road, it
starts with being an effective
caregiver for ourself, 100%.
And again, that's uncomfortable
for a lot of people, based on a
lot of old beliefs and patterning
that they have, that it's in some
form selfish or wrong to
prioritize and to give to
ourselves.
And this is your life.
It's okay to be the center of it.
When we make ourselves the center
of our life, we can really,
really, really, really, truly be
there for others and in a much
more effective way and really a
true demonstration to other people
that it's okay.
I mean, if everyone, if everyone,
you know, think about the world,
if everyone really focused on
really taking care of themselves,
right?
Well, it all starts with that
curiosity.
I'd like to thank you for being
here and joining us again.
You bring a rich conversation and
a lot of meaning to all the areas
we explore.
And certainly today's conversation
is going to encourage me to wake
up curious every day.
Thanks for joining us.
That wraps up this week's episode
of the Caregivers Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark Ropolesky, and we'll see you
next time.
Greg, thank you for coming back
and taking this conversation
further with us.
One of the things I'm taking away
from today is that there's a real
difference between surviving
caregiving and actually beginning
to heal while you're still doing
it.
That may mean discovering that
everything doesn't depend on you.
Sometimes it may mean learning to
accept help, getting some sense of
choice back, or rebuilding parts
of your life that have nothing to
do with being a caregiver.
It may mean taking the time to
actually sit with yourself and
look inside yourself as the first
step on your healing path.
It may mean recognizing that you
don't simply need to become better
at coping, but that something
about your caregiving just has to
change.
So if you heard yourself in this
conversation, especially if
caregiving may be still a part of
your life for years to come, I
think the question Greg leaves us
with is an important one.
What can you start changing now so
that you don't disappear inside
caregiving and can plant the seeds
of healing now?
Greg, thank you again for joining
us.
Before you go, please subscribe or
follow the Caregiver's Podcast
wherever you're listening.
It's completely free, and it
really does help support the show.
And if you're enjoying the podcast
and would like to support the
team, you can buy us a coffee
through the link in the show
notes, or a small independent
show.
And this really is a labor of love
that every bit of support helps us
keep making these conversations
possible.
If you know another caregiver who
could use this conversation,
please share the episode with
them.
Thank you for listening, and we'll
see you next time.
Before we wrap up, I wanted to
remind you of something important.
The conversations you hear on this
podcast are here to inform, to
support, to spark reflection.
We're not a substitute for
professional medical advice, care,
therapy, or crisis services.
Listening to this podcast does not
create a doctor-patient or
caregiver-client relationship
between us.
If you're facing a medical
concern, health challenge, a
mental health challenge, or a
caregiving situation that needs
guidance,
I encourage you to reach out to a
qualified professional who knows
your story.
If you're ever in crisis, please
don't wait.
Call your local emergency number
or recognize crisis hotline right
away.
You deserve real-time help and
support.
The views you hear on this show,
whether from me or my guests, are
our own.
They don't necessarily reflect any
organizations we work with, are
part of, or have worked with, or
been part of in the past.
This podcast is an independent
production.
It's not tied to any hospital,
university, or healthcare system.
Thank you for being here, for
listening, and most of all, for
taking the time to care for
yourself while you continue to
care for others.
I look forward to hearing from
you.