Save a Seat Podcast

Christian and Cole discuss "the inability to be perfect" - the idea that while we should strive to sin less as Christians, we will always be imperfect and have to embrace God's mercy and grace when we fall short.

Special thanks to Willow & Wren Cafe in Nashville for allowing us to use their space.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Christian Makoa
Christian Makoa is a content creator and entrepreneur dedicated to sharing the message of Jesus with passion and transparency.
CF
Host
Cole Fryar

What is Save a Seat Podcast?

We believe truth is worth seeking and faith is meant to be shared. Join Christian Makoa and Cole Fryar as they pull up a chair for Jesus, and for you. From biblical deep dives to the toughest cultural conversations of our time, we are here to talk about what matters most. There is always a spot at the table. Save a seat.

Christian:

Welcome back to the Save a Seat Podcast. We are on episode three. Can you believe it? Three episodes

Cole:

Kinda crazy.

Christian:

It's the trinity now. Yeah. Yeah. I think that means, are we done after this? Are we are we quitting?

Cole:

No. Well God never quits.

Christian:

Welcome welcome back. Yeah. We're still this is week two of us filming. So we filmed the first two episodes in one sitting, but we're glad to be back.

Cole:

It was good though.

Christian:

It was great. Yeah. Thank you for your support for all of the early listeners. If you're new joining us, welcome. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all the places, YouTube.

Christian:

But, yeah, here we just like to have honest real conversation about biblical truth and Christianity, and we like to save a seat for the Lord, for you, for maybe a guest or two in the future. Mhmm. And we're glad to have you here. Cole. I'm

Cole:

glad. Where are we? We are in Willow and Wren Cafe in Nashville, Tennessee. It's a little coffee shop that I work at and it's awesome. If you are in Nashville, stop by.

Cole:

We're at 1210 Wedgewood Ave. We make really good food. We actually just got a new toast that I came up with, and I'm really excited about it.

Christian:

Hey, oh.

Cole:

It's called the Dilly Dally, and it's like rye bread with dill aioli and then oh my gosh. I'm forgetting now. Oh, yeah. And then a roasted tomato, balsamic and feta salad Oh. And then a sunny side up egg.

Cole:

Okay. And a little balsamic drizzle. It's good. Okay. I had it today.

Cole:

It's delicious.

Christian:

And you invented it?

Cole:

I invented it.

Christian:

Yeah. Wow. Do you get royalties? No. That's a bummer.

Christian:

They are letting us use their space though.

Cole:

So Yeah.

Christian:

I think that's

Cole:

pretty awesome.

Christian:

They they've been pretty cool.

Cole:

Yeah. No. It's been great. It's been great. Yeah.

Cole:

I love the space too.

Christian:

I gotta say this drink, I I'm sorry. I can't call it a coffee. This drink is pretty good.

Cole:

Well, it's a mocha. So I mean

Christian:

You know what? I just got hit with a stronger coffee taste that time.

Cole:

It'll probably kinda come in and out. Especially if you do a little swirly, you might get a little Is this what

Christian:

the cool kids do?

Cole:

No. Sorry to sorry to tell you, but

Christian:

Am I an

Cole:

unc? Yeah. Oh. That's okay though. It happens.

Cole:

It happens to the best of us.

Christian:

Devastating.

Cole:

It'll happen to me. I think I'm getting there, which is really weird. What

Christian:

is where is like what's the threshold for unk?

Cole:

I think when you stop understanding like what's going on on the Internet.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Yeah. And I'm getting there.

Christian:

I don't know if I ever understood what's going on on the Internet. I was homeschooled.

Cole:

Okay. So you just been like perpetually unk?

Christian:

Yeah. I think so.

Cole:

That's okay. I mean, makes yeah. I I think it's great.

Christian:

There's benefits to being unk.

Cole:

Alright. I'll take it. What are we talking about today?

Christian:

Today, we wanted to talk about the inability to be perfect. And this is a topic that's been on my heart and something that as we get into the discussion, it will become apparent why I'm almost nervous to discuss it. But Yeah. I think it's important because I think it's something that a lot of believers struggle with. So the premise here is as Christians, we are on this sanctification journey.

Christian:

We are wanting to live more like Christ. We want to hate our sin. We want to sin less frequently. But we are imperfect beings and we are incapable of never sinning. So where is the line between improving I don't know if improving is the word I'm looking for.

Christian:

Like sinning less, being caught up less in habitual sin Mhmm. But also walking in God's grace and realizing that we are never going to be perfect on this earth. We are going to sin until the day we die.

Cole:

Mhmm.

Christian:

And how this came up for me is, you know, in my walk, there's times that I'm struggling with certain sins and I'm like, okay, I like this is something I'm working on. I want this out of my life. Mhmm. And sometimes you stumble. Yeah.

Christian:

And I think it's easy, especially if it's maybe been a habitual sin in your life to strive for perfection and then beat yourself up when if you have like a street going, if if this is the context of like an addiction maybe. Yeah. You have a street going and then you stumble and it's tempting sometimes to throw in the towel and feel so much shame from that that you're like, well, like, I thought I had it, you know. Like, I was on the streak, everything was going well, I stumbled. So clearly, I'm not good enough.

Christian:

Yeah. And I might as well just walk away.

Cole:

Well, I can speak to that too. And I think this conversation came up a little bit for us for a few different things in our lives. Most recently though, I I was talking on the podcast we did last week about pornography. And that's that's something I dealt with for a long time. And I was like, man, I'm on the streak.

Cole:

Like, I think it's going great. And then I had a slip. Yeah. And this time, like, it's so interesting to me because I've been through this cycle so many times, but this time does feel so different. Yeah.

Cole:

There it is. And it's different because I'm not trying to be perfect, and I'm not trying to be good because I know that God is perfect and God is good. And so even if I mess up, that doesn't affect like my salvation in a sense that like as long as I accept Christ and repent, he is good and he is he has paid the price for that sin, which is insane. And I'm like, I'm so grateful and like, that's I think that's the space that I I try to be in and it's shifted this cycle from not sinning, having a slip, being in shame, and then continuing on and sinning, and just kinda throwing in the towel and being like, well, if I sinned anyways, like, might as well just keep going. But it's like once you realize what what Christ did on the cross for you, then you have those convictions, and you're like, man, I I really need to like stop.

Cole:

Yeah. And I'm just it's like being grateful. It's so weird because being grateful and being thankful is is something that has pulled me out of that cycle.

Christian:

Yeah. No. That's so good. I I heard Jonathan Piclouda. I'll probably reference him a lot in this podcast.

Christian:

Phenomenal young adults pastor at Harris Creek Baptist Church. And he has a podcast, co host one called Becoming Something. Great podcast too. But I heard him say in an interview yesterday, and I I don't think I'll ever forget this. It was so powerful.

Christian:

He's like, why are so many believers entertained by the things that Jesus died on the cross for? Like, woah.

Cole:

What does he mean entertained? Because that's my that's my question. How do you take that?

Christian:

Well, I I think that's really in the context of lust, pornography

Cole:

Mhmm.

Christian:

Just any sort of, you know, worldly entertainment that

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

Just isn't of God. Yeah. It's like we're we're being entertained. Like, why why do you why does anyone engage in pornography? It is a form of entertainment that I think it's deeper than that.

Cole:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

You know, at at a surface level, it's like, maybe you're dealing with stress and you turn to that. Mhmm. It's, you know, it's a you're numbing something, you're you're allowing yourself to be entertained Mhmm. By the stuff that Jesus died for. And when you reframe it that way, that's not again, like the goal here is not to shame anyone.

Christian:

It's actually the opposite. But I like what you said though, where I just go back to how much all of this can become a pride issue and an ego issue. Yeah. Because the second that if you have a like a street going, you know, you're making forward progress with some area of sin in your life, you stumble. The second that you're like, ah, I feel so shameful that like, I can't be enough, like, I'm sorry, God.

Christian:

I thought I I thought I could, but I didn't and I failed, And like, I I can't even, you know, I shouldn't even call myself a Christian anymore. Wait a minute. Now you are acting as the judge of your salvation.

Cole:

Yeah. Exactly.

Christian:

Which is an ego thing. It's a pride thing. It's like you're playing God in that situation.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

And deciding for yourself that you are no longer worthy of God's grace and salvation. And I think it's an interesting thought exercise to when you're having a moment like that, remind yourself, Jesus died on the cross for this sin, this exact one. It's not like, oh, all the ones in the past and then it it ran out. God's grace ran out. You're like, oh, you found the tipping point, the scale, it flipped.

Christian:

It's no longer. It's no. For this specific sin right here, right now, Jesus died on the cross for that.

Cole:

And you know what's good too? Sorry. I don't wanna cut you off.

Christian:

No. Go for it.

Cole:

I think what's what's what's crazy about it is that Jesus, and I think I think in a sense, yeah, him knowing all the sins of the world were on him. Like, you think he knew yeah. Wow. Do you think he knew like, okay, I'm I'm dying on this cross for that one night that Cole Fryar, thousands of years later, we'll have a slip?

Christian:

Oh, a 100.

Cole:

That's crazy.

Christian:

I I believe so because God God knows all of time. It's I don't wanna necessarily get into the whole theological debate of like Yeah. Free will and predestination and all that. Yeah. But like, you could almost argue that both things are true.

Cole:

Oh, I I Us

Christian:

as humans, we just can't wrap our mind around it. But it's like the reason you could argue predestination is because God ultimately knows who is going to make that decision. I almost I almost look at it like a random number generator. It's like when when someone's born, there's like like the timeline of events is like randomly generated. And then I'm not saying this is how it works, but like it's just it's the way that my brain has been able to process it is like Yeah.

Christian:

God is like, okay, like human life, go. And then it like Yeah. It like generates and then God can just see the whole timeline like, oh, wow. Okay. Like that's not that like, God knows what's gonna happen even before that, but I

Cole:

don't When he has plans for so this is okay. I mean, this is this is a whole conversation we could get into. I won't go too far into it, but I will say, I I thought about this a lot and I think that like my answer always comes back to we can't comprehend God. And it says in scripture that we have free will, so I believe we have free will. It also says in scripture that God was and is and is to come, and is outside of time, and knows everything that's going to happen.

Cole:

So I see it as like, he created us with free will knowing that we're gonna make the decisions, but it's still our decision to make. And that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. But that's just, you know, that's that's that's all I can say. It's what scripture says.

Cole:

So it's like, alright, you know. And past that, I'm like, I I'm not gonna try to figure anything else out because I can't. Because God is like incomprehensible being. It's insane to me. I love that kind of stuff because it's it's it's mind blowing to me.

Christian:

Yeah. Well, it's so true. It's like if we could fully understand God, then we wouldn't need him. There's no point anymore.

Cole:

That's good.

Christian:

It's like you you might as well be God.

Cole:

Oh, wow. That's really good. Okay. Are you okay going off topic a little bit?

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Okay. So that's that's what I love about this podcast. I feel like we can we can just, like, chat. I feel like I'm chatting with you guys. Anyways yeah.

Cole:

I I think, like, I I heard a sermon given on how if God was understandable, as humans, things that you can understand slowly become mundane.

Christian:

Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah.

Cole:

Isn't that so we're always looking to understand new things. We're very curious beings. That's true. And when we finally understand something and we do it for a while, it gets boring.

Christian:

Wow. That's good. Yeah. Another thing that comes to mind when you say that is, as humans, we often appreciate things that are difficult to achieve. And this it's a bit of a trap with the way I'm phrasing this because it's salvation is not works based.

Christian:

However however, I think it's raining like crazy.

Cole:

Dude, it's pouring. I heard that and I was like, what the heck?

Christian:

Yeah. The the whole noise floor just increased.

Cole:

Well, here's the thing. I love rain so much.

Christian:

Yeah. I hope this I

Cole:

think we'll be okay.

Christian:

Yeah. I mean, you you guys probably hear it in the background, but

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

No big deal. It's yeah. It's coming down out there. Yeah. So like, it's interesting because obviously, like, salvation is not works based.

Christian:

However, we touched on this in previous episodes. Your faith walk is difficult. You are signing up for a life of difficulty, trials, tribulations. Yeah. This idea that like, oh, life is ultimately, yes, it is better with Jesus, but like it's you're you're signing up to be challenged.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

But nothing that we appreciate comes without challenge.

Cole:

Dude, life as a Christian is not easy. No. And if you want it, like, encourage everybody to be a Christian, obviously. Don't take this in the wrong way, but don't sign up if, like, you're not ready to have a struggle.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. But it's so worth it.

Cole:

But sign up. I mean,

Christian:

things that are worth it take work and they take sacrifice.

Cole:

It's like

Christian:

working out, you know. It's like working out sucks. It's not fun, but the the end result is great.

Cole:

Yeah. I think honestly, like, I am so blessed and glad and grateful and thankful to be a Christian and to understand, you know, at least what Christ did for us. Not to the full magnitude because I don't think we will until heaven, But I'll say this to say like, I would never in a million years take back my decision to follow Christ. But man, it's been hard. Like it is a hard road to follow.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's that's very true. Yeah.

Christian:

It's you have to come to terms with laying down I mean, obviously, like, you're you're laying down your life daily. That's that's the basis of it. But, you know, you're you're saying goodbye to a life you could live of the flesh in the world

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

That on the surface looks appealing.

Cole:

No. It's very appealing.

Christian:

And elements to it are appealing. Like, in the moment, it feels good.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

And you might have a moment of mourning, like, wow. I I feel like I'm missing out. But it is so worth it in the long run.

Cole:

Well, and it feels like this it like I was thinking like, this conversation's a little off the topic of inability to be perfect, but actually, don't think so. Because I think that like, the hard part of being a Christian is understanding that Christ was perfect and that he died for our sins, and, like, it couldn't have been us.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Like, we can't pay the price. And I'm like, I'm so thankful and grateful, and like, the cross is so beautiful, but I also feel guilty about it sometimes. Mhmm. Because it's like he didn't do anything to deserve that. I did.

Christian:

Yeah. Okay. That's we're having a full circle moment

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

Because that's almost that logic kinda takes us back to where I got stuck in this thought process. Is, like, feeling like I have to be perfect to deserve God's grace. But what is the point of grace? It's, you know, it's giving us something that we don't deserve that we can't earn. Yeah.

Christian:

And

Cole:

I guess break it down. This is where my my brain goes. Like, because, you know, my faith is built a lot on apologetics. And my faith goes to, okay, we don't even deserve to be here.

Christian:

Yeah. That is so true.

Cole:

Like, this is so interesting to me because it's like, I I don't think I've struggled a lot with I've I've struggled with feeling guilty for not paying the price that I I deserve to pay, and I'm grateful that Christ paid it. But I I I don't struggle as much with God giving us grace because I'm like, well, he he created us. He didn't need he didn't need us. He but he loved us, and he wanted he wanted to love his creation. And so he created us, and then, you know, it all got perverted, and then he sent his son to die for us.

Cole:

So it's like, in my mind, the bigger grace is us being here in the first place.

Christian:

Okay. That's really interesting because I used to erroneously believe that we are all God's children. We're not.

Cole:

We're not.

Christian:

We are all made in the image of God.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

Even non believers. But only believers, those who are saved are God's children.

Cole:

Yep.

Christian:

So when I hear what you just said, I'm like, okay. But what about the people who aren't God's children? Mhmm. Like, should they be grateful to be here?

Cole:

I mean, I think I think in that, there's like, I get it's a hard question to answer because it's like they they don't see it in the same way.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

You know? But I guess, I think what's really interesting for any nonbelievers that are listening, think about how you think how life is so beautiful. And it's like, man, I'm so grateful for my life. And I'm like, who are you grateful towards?

Christian:

Yeah. It's a good point.

Cole:

You have to be grateful towards something. Guess you could say your parents yeah. Like that's where my brain goes, but

Christian:

Family, friends

Cole:

Your parents didn't invent life. They didn't invent the world. They just created you.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

I don't know. Like that's so interesting to me how people are like, man, life is so beautiful and don't see God in that.

Christian:

Yeah. I see your point though. So for for anyone who does believe, you know, we are God's children and it's it's like the grace that God extends to us Mhmm. Is I have such a business brain, but my brain goes to it's like a warranty claim. Or it's like it's like I don't know.

Christian:

Yeah. God is like, I created you. You're my child. I'm covering you.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

I'm gonna help you whenever you stumble. I'm I'm gonna help you get back up and keep walking.

Cole:

So interesting. Because I yeah. Like, I struggle with that thought too that we aren't God's children until we are believers, until we've accepted him. I guess my brain goes towards the covenant with Israel and us being grafted into the covenant as Gentiles. But then I'm like, but then is Israel all God's children?

Cole:

Or is it I mean, the Bible always says it's people. Like, don't know. Yeah. Yeah. This is

Christian:

That's a head scratcher.

Cole:

I'm I'm glad you guys are here to like work through this. I I think that's again, I I've said this few times. That's what I love about this podcast space is that like, we're not here to give answers. Yeah. Honestly.

Christian:

I mean, we wanna offer hopefully thoughtful conversations. Hopefully, you walk away from this with something.

Cole:

Yes.

Christian:

But we're not theologians. We're not pastors.

Cole:

We're struggling through this as well.

Christian:

Yeah. Very much so.

Cole:

I I love it. But again, back to the topic, I think like yeah. I don't know. I almost I hate that we're not perfect, but I also think it's beautiful.

Christian:

Yeah. We need that reliance on God. Yeah. Here's something that I thought about this week is I wonder how much our our response to sin, repentance, accepting God's grace Mhmm. Prayer in general is affected by how we know to show up in earthly relationships.

Christian:

Like, we have a certain perception of what God must be like or like, oh, God's gonna be mad because x y z. It's like that comes from somewhere. Maybe a relationship with your parents or just another important relationship in your life. You sort of learn those behaviors. And I wonder how often we project that onto God.

Christian:

Or another thing that blew my mind, I don't know if you know anything about attachment styles or attachment

Cole:

A little bit.

Christian:

Yeah. In general. But I was like, I wonder if our attachment styles sort of apply to our relationship with God as well.

Cole:

Yeah. Oh, I think so. Well, and I think this all comes around to like, God created us with the perfect ability to have a relationship with him. God created this is this is interesting that we say like the inability to be Because how did God create us? He created us in his image.

Cole:

So we were created to be perfect. So even if you take an attachment style, right, that attachment style in a sense could be perfect. Yeah. The way that you relate and have a relationship with God, but it's perverted by the enemy.

Christian:

Yeah. No. That's true.

Cole:

And I guess yeah. I think this whole thing of like the inability to be perfect and it's like, these these problems that we have to be perfect, like, think even addiction. Right? Take addiction for example. I think like my brain latching onto something was originally built for me to latch on to God.

Christian:

Oh.

Cole:

And be, like, fully, like, pursuing him Woah. And, like, always desiring him. But it's perverted Woah. Because of the world.

Christian:

That's so weird, but it makes perfect sense. Like, it's I think it's difficult for us to accept like, saying like, I should be addicted to God. But you should.

Cole:

Because addiction has such a negative connotation, which is fair because usually it's a negative thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

Like, God should be your idol. Yeah. It's another it's like

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

Normally, we're like idolatry. Uh-uh. No idols. It's like, no. God should be an idol.

Christian:

You know

Cole:

what's so interesting is wow. God says don't fall into false idolatry or false idols. Don't follow false idols. Woah. He's a jealous God.

Cole:

He wants us to idolize him.

Christian:

Yeah. I mean, what is worship?

Cole:

Yeah. Well, I'd be careful too in saying that because there are parts of your relationship with God that I do believe you can idolize to a point where you're not actually following God. Yeah. And you're not like growing in relationship. I think like reading is a great one.

Cole:

It's like, I know people who are like, man, if I'm not reading, I'm not spending time with God. I'm like, well, that's not really true.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I once I heard I I received some advice. And this was in the context of, like, looking for a romantic partner, but I think it's interesting.

Christian:

It's like, well, how do I know if they're pursuing God? Because, like, they don't read their Bible every single day, and I do. So I don't really think that they're that godly. And the advice was, well, look at the fruit in their life. Yeah.

Christian:

And judge judge. Again, we can't be the judge of someone's salvation, but like evaluate where their heart might be based on their fruit. Yeah. That's It's never in the word. Like, there's you you have to have discernment here.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

But, you know, if it's like, oh, like they read three times a week. Yeah. And I think that if you don't read your bible every single day, then you're not saved. Yeah. You're probably making an idol out of scripture.

Cole:

Oh, a 100%.

Christian:

Which is interesting.

Cole:

And I think that's like, that's such a big thing because I mean, yeah, look at the fruit. And we can't judge salvation, but we can judge by fruit. And that that is scriptural. We can judge by fruit in a sense of like, look at their fruits and, you know, then you can kind of decide through the spirit, you know, if that's that's something you wanna align yourself with. If that's something that's honoring to God.

Cole:

And I think, yeah. I mean, you're talking about like, are you are you following them for their works or for their fruits?

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Are you you attracted to them Yeah. For their works or their No. That's so interesting.

Christian:

Okay. Here's here's a thought that I have to kind of further the conversation. What is sanctification? How do we know that we're being sanctified? How do we know that we're not stalled out?

Cole:

Yeah. So when I was baptized, I had probably like the hardest two or three months of my life Wow. Right after I was baptized. Specifically due to addiction. And I think that a lot of times we hear Christian's testimonies and actually, don't think so.

Cole:

I think a lot of times we can put up a straw man of Christianity and following God and being saved. And it's like, man, when I'm saved, like it's all butterflies and rainbows and God blesses me and he protects me. And while those things are true, he does bless you and protect you when you when you choose to accept him. The enemy also attacks incredibly hard. And a good example of this is Jesus.

Cole:

The passage after Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist is Jesus being tempted. And I don't think that's a coincidence at all. I do think, like because we're talking about sanctification here. And like, I think a lot of people see salvation sanctification in the same light as like, oh, when I'm saved, I'll I'll be free of this.

Christian:

Yeah. Possibly.

Cole:

Very possibly. But I'm betting that there's gonna be a lot harder things that come up.

Christian:

I I just gotta download.

Cole:

Okay. I

Christian:

think a great way to look at sanctification is learning to continually keep your eyes on God. And that sounds overly simple, but I got this visual of when you arrive at an airport, if you've ever traveled internationally, you arrive at an airport, you're like, I'm at the destination. What happens the moment you go through immigration, you get your bags, you step outside? Mhmm. There's all this noise and literal, like, cab drivers trying to scam you, like, hey.

Christian:

Hey, come over here. Come over here. I can give you a cab ride to where you're trying to go and and charge you an absurd price. And it's like, no, you gotta stay locked in. You gotta be like, if you're going to the train or like where the actual Ubers are and not like these scam taxi drivers.

Christian:

And it's like as soon as you place your faith in Christ and you're justified in Christ, you are you have a target on your back Yeah. And the enemy is instantly gonna try to get your attention. Hey, look over here. Look over here. Look over here.

Christian:

And and I think really what sanctification is is learning to tune that out better over time and learning to not be distracted by it and keep your eyes on the Lord.

Cole:

Oh, a 100%. I think, see, it's so interesting the way you say you have a target on your back. And I think a lot of people don't know. I I wonder it makes me wonder that like when you're not a believer, and you're not seeking God, and you're not seeking truth, at least, like, all the time, you know, because I I do think most nonbelievers are seeking truth and but yeah. When you're when you're a nonbeliever, you're not seeking truth.

Cole:

I I almost think the devil kinda just, like, I think he just doesn't really worry about you. Yeah. I think he's like, man, I got you right where I want you. Alright.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Cool. Let me go focus on this. Because okay. What do you sorry. It's a little tangent y.

Cole:

What do you think omnipresence? Because God is omnipresence and he's omniscient. But I I I don't think Satan is.

Christian:

Yeah. That's I would agree.

Cole:

There's Yeah.

Christian:

Woah. Okay. This is interesting. Yeah. Because I don't think there's really scriptural grounds for Satan being omnipresent.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

Which if that's true, and let's say it is, would that then mean like, what so what even is an attack from the enemy? Because are you arguing when you say that that Satan himself is attacking you? And then that's like, you have to really have a high view of yourself to be like Exactly. Satan is targeting me specifically out of all 8,000,000,000 people in the world.

Cole:

Is an interesting thing. So okay. So I I believe that there's legions of of demons. I I do. And I think that a lot of the time, like, there's different demons that'll attack you at different times.

Cole:

I think more so of the time, we are choosing to do things and then blaming the enemy.

Christian:

I agree.

Cole:

I A 100%. I think yeah. I think it's like kinda prideful to be like, man, Satan's coming after me. Like Satan did this. This is why I sinned.

Cole:

Did you or did you just wanna sin?

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. I I don't think you should ever blame your sin on Satan.

Cole:

Yes and no. Oh, yeah. Sorry. That one, it would clock.

Christian:

It clocked. It's Yeah. Satan tempted me.

Cole:

Yeah. I mean, he might tempt you.

Christian:

You did. Well, yeah. You faced temptation, but like, you made that decision.

Cole:

Yeah. And here's the thing too, it's like addiction can feel so much like you're not making the decision, the decision. But I guess a big realization that I came to, again, like I talked about in last episode that is that I still I desired and I loved part of the sin, and I wanted it. And when I finally realized that and came to terms with it, I was able to get rid of that. But yeah, I think it's so interesting like, man, Satan being omnipresent, like, I I I don't think he is.

Cole:

And I think a lot of times we choose to sin and we need to accept that like, you know, we do have free will, and we can use it for wrong.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. So I was doing a little bit of research on, you know, what is sanctification, and one of the scriptures that came up is Romans six fourteen. This is the NLT version. It says, sin is no longer your master for you no longer live under the requirements of the law.

Christian:

Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace. And I think just seeing it as I always think like, okay, God is my boss, so I answer to God. And when I apply what that scripture says, before I was saved, I answered to sin. Yeah. It's so interesting.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

So if sin is no longer my master and I have freedom because of God's grace Mhmm. Then I don't owe sin anything. I don't have to feel ashamed I of can rest in God's grace and say, Oh, I hit a pothole. Know, God forgive me, I repent of my sin. I'm running back to you.

Christian:

And I I really I have this visual of like staring into the face of God, and we're human, we're imperfect, we're ADHD, we get distracted. It's like you you look away for a couple seconds and you're like, oh, uh-oh. What just happened? Okay, God. My eyes are back on you.

Christian:

It's that simple. Instead of being like, oh, but now I feel dirty and icky and like I can't look at God after I just did that and that's pride talking.

Cole:

I promise you that God's like, just look at me. Like Yeah. Just just look at me. Like, especially after you sin. I think a lot of us like to think that like the build up before the sin is where we it is where we need see God.

Cole:

Yes. A 100%. Yeah. But I think like a lot of people believe that after they sin, they're like, man, I should have done this and this and this before. And I'm like, well, what are you doing right now?

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

You just sinned. Where do you go?

Christian:

Yeah. And that's that takes a lot of humility. It's like the dog with its tail between its legs. Mhmm. But okay.

Christian:

Humble yourself.

Cole:

Yeah. Yeah. Because I

Christian:

don't know. I I know I sometimes after sin, I'll be like, I it's like a cool down period. It's like, I can't talk to God until some time has passed because and it's so irrational because it's like God knows, like, he watched it happen.

Cole:

He watched it happen before it happened.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Oh, this is a good this is a crazy thing. God can never be disappointed in you because to be disappointed, you need expectation. And God doesn't ex well, he expects us it's a weird way to say it, but like, to have expectation, you need passage of time. But God doesn't experience time.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Right?

Christian:

Interesting.

Cole:

It have expectation, you can't know what what's gonna happen because you expect it or like does that make sense?

Christian:

Yeah. No. So, yeah. God can't be disappointed because disappointment is usually a result of unfulfilled expectations.

Cole:

There it is. There it is.

Christian:

And there are no unfulfilled expectations because God knows exactly what's gonna happen.

Cole:

Yeah. So like, why not just turn back to God after you sin?

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

And also it's like, I'm gonna talk to the like the Christians here for a second. If you sinned and you've come back to God, I know for a fact that you felt the Holy Spirit and you felt him you felt his grace and his love for you. So why after you sin again do you expect any different? God never changes.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

His love never changes.

Christian:

I once heard it explain that, like, the blood of Christ is just as potent today as it was the day he died. And to think that, like, it's it it's wearing off, it's getting weaker, it's that's just our human mindset of like anything that's new is exciting. And then the longer we know about it, it's

Cole:

It gets mundane. Yeah.

Christian:

It does.

Cole:

Talked about that earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. So, okay. This is an interesting discussion. You know, there's a lot a lot a lot a lot of grace that God gives us. Yet still, as believers, we're on the sanctification journey.

Christian:

Yeah. We should be having more fruit in our lives over time. I like to think of it like a stock market chart. It's trending upward. You're you're gonna have little dips Mhmm.

Christian:

In the chart. It doesn't have to be linear. Mhmm. So if you have this view, it has to be linear and therefore, oh, I stumbled. I might as well just throw in the towel.

Christian:

Like, maybe I'm not actually Christian. No. Like, you're gonna have dips in the chart. But when you zoom out and you look at the five year view, the twenty year view, like, it it should be on an upward trajectory. So what does that look like?

Christian:

What does the Bible say about it? Well, I was looking in Galatians. Galatians five twenty two through 23 says, but the holy spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control. I got two of those words out of order. There is no law against these things.

Christian:

And I think that's really it, is is the fruit of the spirit in your life increasing with time? Yeah.

Cole:

Yeah. Because when you start getting into like, am I sinning this much? Am I sinning this much? That that starts to become work because you're like, am I am I doing this? Am I doing this?

Cole:

Or is God doing that? You know, is God blessing me with these fruits? Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. And I I love so something that I had jotted down here was the progression of how Paul sees his own sin in his life. And so early ministry, this is around AD fifty five. First Corinthians fifteen nine, Paul says, I'm the least of the apostles.

Cole:

For I'm

Christian:

the least of all the apostles. In fact, I'm not even worthy to be called an apostle after the way I persecuted God's church. That's fifty five AD. Sixty to sixty two AD, Ephesians three eight, though I am the least deserving of all God's people, he graciously gave me the privilege of telling the Gentiles about the endless treasures available to them in Christ. Still a very humble view.

Christian:

And end of life, this is between A. Sixty two and sixty four and first Timothy one fifteen. This is a trustworthy saying and everyone should accept it. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and I am the worst of them all.

Cole:

And honestly, as like dark as that sounds, we should all take that on.

Christian:

Yeah. But I actually think it's freeing because if Paul Yeah. At the end of his life is saying, I am the worst sinner of them all. That tells me that he is in the headspace of still feeling the weight of like Yeah. I'm not it's not like, oh Wow.

Christian:

I am sitting approximately 50% less than I was when I got saved. It's like, it this journey never ends.

Cole:

It really doesn't.

Christian:

I suppose it ends maybe when we're in heaven, but

Cole:

on It's like a marathon.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

And it's like, salvation isn't the finish line, it's the beginning.

Christian:

Yeah. That's so true.

Cole:

And sanctification is is the race. Yeah. That's crazy. Thank you. It's

Christian:

long race.

Cole:

It's a long race and you're gonna have to keep running. Wow.

Christian:

Yeah. I I also had a few more examples here. So, you know, Peter. Peter as an early believer Mhmm. He was impulsive, arrogant, boasting that he would never desert Jesus.

Cole:

Sounds like me.

Christian:

And then ultimately denied Jesus three times out of fear for his life. Yep. After saying he wouldn't.

Cole:

Sounds like me.

Christian:

Decades later, after Pentecost, after healing the sick and preaching to thousands, Peter was a primary leader of the early church. Yet in Galatians two, Paul records that he had to confront Peter to his face because Peter fell into blatant excuse me, hypocrisy. Out of fear of what a strict Jewish faction would think, Peter stopped eating with Gentile believers. So even as an old seasoned apostle, Peter fell into a trap.

Cole:

So interesting. And I actually read this pretty recently too. This you know, it's kinda funny is I didn't know Cephas was Peter. Yeah. Don't know that.

Cole:

I believe so.

Christian:

I Yeah. I

Cole:

think I it's Cephas. Anyways, but I yeah. I was reading that and I went to somebody else, like I guess I looked up, you know, who was Cephas and it was like Peter. And I I literally had to ask one my friends, I was like, that's Peter? I was like, Peter was the one that Paul came up and convicted or like talked to.

Cole:

Mhmm. Like that's crazy to me. But it's also so like I don't know. It it makes the the apostles feel so much more like real human beings.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

And it almost feel like it's it's more relatable and I can feel closer to them when I'm reading about them.

Christian:

Yeah. I mean, John in first John one eight, so this is, you know, when he's a a mature apostle, he writes, if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. What does he mean by we? I mean, I I assume he's including himself in that. Yeah.

Christian:

Not like if you. Yeah. If we. So even John is like, no. Yeah.

Christian:

I I still sin.

Cole:

And that's I mean, he's what what I would guess is he's doing by that passage is he's explaining that human beings are by nature, because of the fall of Adam and Eve, sinners.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

And he's saying, if you if we human beings claim to be sinless, then we we are liars.

Christian:

Yeah. I'm curious if we could zoom out here for a minute

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

And talk about where where does this idea of perfection come from? Because I feel like there's something cultural within the church at large, within within Christian culture.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

Somewhere along the lines, some of us I think some struggle more than others, you know, maybe some of us lean a little too much on God's grace and

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

Being flippant about sin. But then there's a flip side of feeling like you have to be perfect, and if you stumble, you're, you know, you're somehow worse than another believer. Where do you think this comes from?

Cole:

I I low key kinda think that we experience it a lot because of American culture.

Christian:

Like the comparison trap?

Cole:

The comparison trap. And I don't think it's a bad thing though, like trying to better yourself, you know? Yeah. Working harder, working out harder, and like being the best person that you can be is such a good driving force in our our economy, in our culture, in the Western world, honestly. But I think it gets to a point where we're like, okay, but if I'm not there, then I'm nothing.

Christian:

Yeah. I'll tell you what it is for me, and this is gonna get really nuanced here pretty quickly.

Cole:

But

Christian:

let's just take the, you know, the spooky sins. And this this could be a whole side quest about like all sins are created equal. Mhmm. Yet still, there's like the spooky sins of the church. Pornography Yep.

Christian:

Drug addiction, alcoholism, you know. Let's just stick to those three. Mhmm. What happens? Oh, and let's say, like, affairs.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

You know. So so what happens if it comes out that maybe a pastor is actively struggling with an addiction? The pastor resigns or, you know, is kinda pushed out by the board of the church. Mhmm. Now, I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with that.

Christian:

Yeah. Leaders are called to a higher standard. That's scriptural.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

But I can say that seeing these fallouts in the church has made me as an observer go, uh-oh. If I ever struggled with anything like that, it's over. Which is so weird. Again, I'm not saying that you want a pastor who's like an active alcoholic.

Cole:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

But it's it's like, it it's not I think it's not approached as like, wow, we're like, our heart breaks. Like, we we want our pastor to get healing. I think we often approach it as shame.

Cole:

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Christian:

Wow. I can't believe that the pastor like, what a hypocrite. How could he? And that that's where it comes from for me. Yeah.

Christian:

And the the the reason that I've struggled with this idea.

Cole:

When I hear that, like, how could he or anything like like, flip the script.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Like, full on. Look yourself in the mirror. Are you doing better?

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

And a lot of times the answer is no.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

And it should be, no. I'm I'm doing about the same. You know, unless it's like a very serious like addiction or like, you know, there's there's certain things where I do think, you know, you you might be not doing better because we're all sinners, you know. It's it's like a hard line to draw. But I guess I I have a a very strong draw towards this conversation.

Cole:

And I think it's because I see these pastors and that happens and it, you know, pastoral ministry is something I wanna pursue. And I'm like, man, I need to get rid of the sin before I can go into that. I see these pastors and I see the backlash, and again, I I do think that, yeah, if it's serious enough, they should be removed from position, but then it should be removed from position so that they can have time and support to heal. Yeah. And I don't see that happening.

Christian:

Yeah. Most of

Cole:

the time.

Christian:

Yeah. I agree. And I think maybe, you know, to play devil's advocate here to argue the other side though, it's like oftentimes these things are brewing for a very long time before they surface.

Cole:

Mhmm.

Christian:

And there maybe could have been things no. I'll I'll I'll say it more confidently. There are things that the leader could have done Yeah. To prevent that.

Cole:

Oh, yeah.

Christian:

And like, I heard a sermon one time, and the pastor said he was talking about spiritual compromise.

Cole:

Mhmm.

Christian:

And no one says, you know what? Three years from today, I'm gonna wake up and have an affair. That sounds like a great idea.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

But three years from today, you find yourself having an affair. Well, it was all the little compromises that you made along the way. And I heard I'm gonna quote Jonathan Piclouda again. But Yeah. I think he was actually quoting another pastor who said like, you know where where infidelity starts?

Christian:

It's when you're getting lemonade instead of water at a restaurant and you got a water cup.

Cole:

Woah. That that took me a second. Just those little compromises.

Christian:

Those little compromises in integrity. Well, it's not that big

Cole:

of a deal.

Christian:

I think it's it's slowly slowly slowly grows into something bigger.

Cole:

So interesting you say that because we were just talking about Instagram. And yeah, man. Oh, wow. Okay. So I I have deleted Instagram and social medias for the past like six months now.

Cole:

Over half a year actually. It's probably getting I close to a highly highly highly encourage you to do it. Social media is a huge part of my job, and I still do it without them. So let me just throw that out there before You may gotta

Christian:

try it. I don't know.

Cole:

All I'm saying is I I say that to people. I'm around a lot of music artists. I'm around a lot of people who use social media every day, And they're like, but it's part of my job. And I'm like, but I do it and it's it's also a part of my job. Maybe not as heavily, but you can use your laptop.

Cole:

Like Yeah. There's ways around it. Yeah. Anyways, we started this podcast. I was like, I need to start posting at least a little bit.

Cole:

So I was like, okay. I'll download Instagram on my phone just because it's easier to post from there. And that is true. Or at least like post your story, which is pretty important nowadays in the social media world. I was like, okay, I'll I'll download it, I'll post my story, I'll delete it.

Cole:

Started doing that and I was like, wow. I mean, if we're doing this every week, I might as well just keep it on my phone. So I kept it on my phone. Then I slipped. That's honestly

Christian:

It was a trigger for

Cole:

you. It was a trigger for me. And I knew it was a trigger for me, but I was like, but I need it for this. I'll compromise. And then I slipped.

Christian:

Wow.

Cole:

So like that's a real world example of like Yeah. Exactly that happening. So yeah. I mean, there's just so much truth in that like, don't make those little compromises. Big thing, music.

Cole:

I think a lot of people are like, why don't wanna listen to all just Christian music? Like, wanna listen to, you know, the music. I'm a producer. I'm an artist. I love to make music, and I think it is so important to be influenced by different areas of music.

Cole:

But I can tell you right now, some of the best music that I've made has come after I stopped listening to secular music. Wow. Like, are you saying that you can't make good music with God? Like, are you saying that God can't do that in your life? That deleting Instagram, God can't help you find a way to still do your job or provide for you?

Christian:

Yeah. I guess to just to play devil's advocate on specifically on that music element Mhmm. I don't think the Christian music industry has done great in general

Cole:

Oh, yeah.

Christian:

At pulling objectively good musical influences inspiration. Like, if if we take lyrics out of all music

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

All Christian music kinda sounds the same, and it sounds like other Christian music. It's become its own and I'm not even I'm not even arguing like worship music even though that's also its own thing.

Cole:

But Yeah.

Christian:

Just like songs with Christian lyrics or clean songs written by Christians

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

It all kinda sounds the same. So I do struggle with that as a creative where Yeah. Like I I was talking to someone a couple weeks ago who made the decision to only listen to Christian music exclusively, like like hard nose, like absolutely no secular music whatsoever. I respect that decision.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

I just don't I don't know if it's for me.

Cole:

I don't mean, it's it's personal conviction. One thing I will say is honestly, I do still listen to secular music sometimes. It's more of a desire thing for me. I don't enjoy secular music like I used to.

Christian:

I agree.

Cole:

I enjoy Christian music a lot more. And I do think like, I don't know, like, yeah, there's there we're still there's a lot of work to be done in bringing other influence. But then it makes me think like, okay, so what are these influences, you know, like hip hop? Like, what is the hip hop world about? And why I think the beats are fine and the instrumental's great.

Cole:

And I think if you can find a good way to do it as a Christian, then that's awesome. But also lyrically, a lot of the hip hop world is built around things that I don't wanna listen to.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

And the culture, you know. But again, I don't think a hip hop beat is the devil's music. Like that's Yeah. It's not what I'm saying. Yeah.

Cole:

No. Other thing I'll say is, I think there's some great bands. Riders is a great one. They're very like indie rock. But they're they're Christian.

Christian:

I gotta check them out.

Cole:

Riders, they're awesome. Shout out to them. They're they're they're great. I mean, there's a few other Soulsician. I I I have like one song by him that I that I listened to and it's it's great.

Cole:

These are just like references if anybody wants to listen to Christian music that's not like, you know, contemporary like CCM.

Christian:

Have you ever listened to Color Vault?

Cole:

I haven't. Oh, I love Color Vault. That's that's a good thing to know. Yeah. Yeah.

Cole:

What what genre?

Christian:

Indie alt eccentric? I don't know. I call it eccentric. It's it's like it's a kind of like a little more music nerd music. Okay.

Christian:

Cool.

Cole:

I like that stuff.

Christian:

Like, if you ever listen to Wolfpack

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

It's not. Oh, really? Oh, wow. Corey Wong? Wow.

Christian:

Okay. I got I gotta show you some music after.

Cole:

But Okay.

Christian:

Wow. We were we were very off topic.

Cole:

We are so off topic. But I mean, we are and we aren't. Like, I think like, it's all based around this like, what are we striving to do better in our lives? Because we can't be perfect. Yeah.

Cole:

And that's a hard rule. Yeah. Like that's that's a we can't be perfect period.

Christian:

It's true.

Cole:

If we were perfect, we'd be Christ. That's just like.

Christian:

Yep.

Cole:

So we can't be. But what can we strive to do better? And a lot of that is based on personal convictions. And you know, that that also comes along with the Paul or Peter eating food with, you know, non Jews or was sacrificed to idols or whatever. Yeah.

Cole:

Paul talks about that and he's like, based on your personal convictions, do what you want. Meat is meat. Food is food.

Christian:

100%.

Cole:

Yeah. But yeah. I mean, I think what again, it's so interesting because this always comes around to pride to me.

Christian:

Yeah. Was it you I think you said maybe in the last episode that like all sin is pride.

Cole:

All sin is just pride. Yeah. Like sin is it's saying that I don't need God. It's saying that I I can get one thing that a Christian counselor told me one time that stuck with me for a long time, it's and I was idolizing a romantic relationship, and this changed my perspective was that we have divine needs. We are built with a necessity for things that only God can give us.

Cole:

And when we sin, we're seeking out these needs in the world, and we're trying to fill these things that only God can do with things of the world.

Christian:

Yeah. Which I will go back to. You if if you place your faith in Christ, you are God's child. God we are all made in the image of God. Therefore, God is the manufacturer of all of us.

Christian:

So God designed us with these needs that only he can fulfill. If you place your faith and hope in him, you are his child.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

All you have to do is keep looking at him. Yeah. That's it. And it's it's the moments that we get distracted, we look away, we go off on a a side quest looking for what God can provide us right in front of us. He's right there.

Christian:

Yeah. Just look at him. But we're like, actually, no. I I know I have this need and God created that need and God can fulfill it. Yeah.

Christian:

I see a couple trees over there. I'm just gonna go look over there and see if I can find it there. And

Cole:

so, like, I just get the picture of of God just, like, with his hand on your on your face, and you're like, literally like straining against his his hand to like move your head. Oof. And he's like, no no no no no And then you look at the other, he's like, no no no no no no. Yeah. And that's conviction.

Cole:

Like, that's that's that's the conviction is is God saying, nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Cole:

Like I'm not blaming you. Like those things are just are they look nice, but like, let's just move your head back here. I think that's another thing is is people mix up conviction and shame a lot. Yes. Conviction and shame are not the same things.

Cole:

Conviction is God, again, moving your head back. He's it's very loving and it's soft and he's like, nope. This way. Let's just refocus. There we go.

Cole:

Yeah. And then shame is like, oh, man. I'm a horrible person. I messed up.

Christian:

Like Shame introduces the pride element. Yeah. It's conviction I I almost like I wonder I don't I don't know that like guilt is even bad. Like, think if you feel guilty I mean, what does guilty mean? It's it's guilty as charged.

Christian:

Like, I did Yeah.

Cole:

I guess It's

Christian:

like, you can you can feel guilt

Cole:

Is guilt a feeling? Or is it an adjective? People

Christian:

say I feel guilty.

Cole:

But is that I think to me, that's just them admitting that they're wrong. That they did Okay. That it's, you know, they're taking accountability. Yeah. I guess, like, I don't know.

Cole:

That that I never thought about that. That's just a random thought that popped up in my head.

Christian:

I I think it's almost a synonym for conviction because Mhmm. It's like, if you say I feel guilty, sometimes it's in the context of you're almost not sure. Like a gray area like, oh, this is kind of a dumb example maybe. But, you know, there's like some restaurants, they have like the water button, but there's like the carbonated water button Mhmm. As well, but it's not soda.

Christian:

It's like, do you should you feel guilty if you, like, is does that count as water? I know it's a dumb example, but

Cole:

I think it's just like applying shame. Like, I think guilty is like, yeah, we are guilty of our sins. We we committed our sins.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Christ paid the the price for him. But I think people mix up guilt and shame. I think they connect them.

Christian:

Yeah. So I'm arguing that, like, it's you can feel guilty

Cole:

Yes.

Christian:

And that's good.

Cole:

Yes. Yeah.

Christian:

And like guilt and conviction are good. Shame is because not that's introducing the pride element of Mhmm. I'm I'm not good enough. I I I should have been strong enough to not stumble into that. You ready?

Christian:

And yeah. Hit me with it.

Cole:

So if God's guiding our faces back, and he's like moving your head. Right? And he's like, just very softly, very softly, sometimes very firmly, you know. It's like, oh, come on. Come back.

Cole:

Shame is like God doing that and then us being like, why did you slap me?

Christian:

Oh.

Cole:

Like

Christian:

That's so true though. Yeah. That's so true because because shame often leads to you feeling like I can't come back to God because he's gonna be mad

Cole:

at me. Because he's gonna be mad at me.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Or I guess it's not like, why did you slap me? It's like, oh my gosh. God's gonna God's gonna throw my head or God's gonna slap me back in the position. It's like, no. He's he's gonna move you, but he's not gonna, like, do it, like, to harm you at all.

Cole:

That's so interesting. Thank you, Holy Spirit. Man, I think, like, I I wanna be just like super vulnerable and I I this is just connecting me on such a deep level because I think I went that, like, the cycle that I've talked about with pornography is a shame cycle. That's what it is.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

It's I sin, I wanna fix it, but the way I fix it is just like beating myself down when God is trying to give me grace. And I'm like backing away from God because I'm backing into my own hole. And then I'm further in this hole and then I sin again. And then I

Christian:

just Yeah.

Cole:

Keep covering myself. Like it's it's your action to feel shame. Like you are choosing the shame over salvation, which is freely offered by God as long as you accept him.

Christian:

That's so good. Yeah. It's it's almost like if you apply it to like an earthly relationship for an example, you know, for those of us who are blessed with wonderful loving parents, you know, sometimes you might get in a bind in life and your parents offer to help you. Maybe that's financially or with just the way that they show up and physically offering help and Yeah. And often how often is your response you wanna have an ego and be like, no.

Christian:

Yeah. No. You can't help me. Yeah. I dug this hole.

Christian:

I have to get out of it. And they're right there like, but we love you. We wanna help you.

Cole:

Yeah. And

Christian:

you you you have to learn to accept help.

Cole:

Yes. And I I like that example if I can add to it. Yeah. It's like your parents are helping you out, but they're still gonna get scraped up. And you you do need to be aware of that.

Cole:

Like, the salvation and the acceptance and the the help is free, But it is only free because of Christ's sacrifice.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

I just like I'd like, I I'm so in agreement. I think I just, you know, I wanna remind people listening that like, that is so deeply important that we understand like what Christ did on the cross for us. And I think that comes into like making it easier to accept in a way of like, I don't know. I might be losing my track a little bit here, but it's like when you when you understand that and when you feel it deeply enough of his love and his sacrifice, then it's like, man, I'd be, you know, rude if I didn't accept your your your salvation.

Christian:

Woah. Woah. I would be rude if I didn't accept your salvation.

Cole:

It's like past rude. Like that's the word that came to mind, but it's like Yeah. It'd be so disrespectful. Woah. It'd so so disrespectful.

Christian:

But that's that is so true. What happens if you don't accept God's salvation? Ultimately, you go to hell.

Cole:

Yeah. Wow. That is I think I think we've been circling this for the whole episode. I think it's just like, boom. Yeah.

Cole:

I wanna say too to this, when you don't accept God's grace or you've not accepted God's grace in the past, don't let that shame get you either.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

Because that's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying like, realize what Christ did on the cross for you. And then when you've sinned, like, accept it. Accept it. Yeah.

Cole:

Because, I mean, that suffering was horrendous and you deserved it. You deserved it. I'm sorry to say it, but like, we deserve what we get for our sins.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. There's no amount of sin or no mistake you can make that's ever too big for God. And if you have such a past, you're like, yeah, but I've, you know, this this this this. I've I've been in prison.

Christian:

I've whatever, you know, whatever it is. You are getting stuck in pride. Again. I'm sorry to say. Like, you you you you are not that important.

Christian:

You're not that powerful.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

You're not. Like, you you will never be powerful enough to negate what Jesus did on the cross.

Cole:

Yeah. Oh, man. That's it right there. Yeah. Your sin, you, anything you do will never be powerful enough to negate what Christ did on the cross.

Cole:

I love that.

Christian:

Which I'm grateful for.

Cole:

Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Me too. I'm so grateful for that.

Cole:

Yeah. And I think that's that's end of the like, that that's what I wanna come off as is like, this is all out of just praise and gratefulness to that sacrifice because again, we deserved to be up there. Like, we really did. But instead, like, God, like Christ, perfect human being who didn't sin was up there for us because he loved us. And he said, father forgive them for they know not what they do.

Cole:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Christian:

Yeah. There's one more thing that I wanna touch on, and I I think we're we're close to our arbitrary time here. Not that we have to like be strict on that. But one thing that I think could be helpful on this journey is having wise counsel in your life who can be observing your fruit over time. Yeah.

Christian:

Because still, there's that question sometimes of like, am I on the right path? Yeah. Am I being sanctified well, good enough? I I don't know that that's the right term. But, you know, like, am I actually making progress here?

Christian:

I go back to the stock chart analogy. But like Yeah. Do do others in your life who you trust, do they see this stock chart trending upwards over the last five to ten years? Because we are often our own worst critics. Oh, I understand.

Christian:

It's easy for you to have the like the blinders on and be like, I'm I'm failing I'm failing I'm failing. Again, what is that? Ego pride. But okay. Let's let's not get back into that right now.

Christian:

It's like, it's just human nature. You are your own worst critic. Yeah. And I think it can be very encouraging to have others in your life where when you're being hard on yourself, they will hopefully Yeah. Be able to say, hey, look, I see the fruit in your life.

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

You're doing okay. Yeah. Keep just keep running after the Lord. Maybe they also convict you. Yeah.

Christian:

But that's good too.

Cole:

Yeah. Well, and I think that's that's a great thing to say. I and I would say be open as well. If you do get a mentor, which a 100% I encourage you to, be open to what they have to say because, I mean, yeah, like you want them to call you out on things, and it's gonna hurt, and it's gonna be like, oh, why did you say that? But eventually, they'll call you out on something, and eventually, I promise, if you stick with the Lord, you'll you'll come around and be like, yeah, they're a 100% right.

Cole:

I will say another thing, like, we we met through a men's group. Well, we met through a few different ways. But I started a men's group and that's how we decided to do the podcast. And the the biggest purpose in my opinion of that men's group was to take all the sin that all these guys are struggling with and just throw it on the table to everybody. And when you do that, you realize how many people struggle with the same thing that you struggle with.

Christian:

Yeah.

Cole:

You are not alone with your struggle. Many people struggle with it. I can promise you that. I can promise you that. Even some of the worst sins I've I've had conversations and experiences with people I'm very close to about a sin that I never thought I would tell anybody about.

Cole:

And I did and they were like, yeah, but you're you're like, you're you're saved now. Like, I don't see you in that light because of Christ. And that and they also then were open enough to tell me about a sin that they never thought they would tell anybody.

Christian:

Wow.

Cole:

And it's like, the deepest darkest things in our lives, we're all human. We we all make mistake. We all make really bad mistakes at some point. And be open, like, obviously with people you trust. But I don't know.

Cole:

I I think I'm just saying like, when you push sin out into the open, it has no power.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's you gotta get it out into the light.

Cole:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

It grows in darkness.

Cole:

And that's where those pastors that's what happens is is they they hide it. I think that's a big thing. I think I wanna encourage any church leadership, anything. Check-in on your pastors. Check-in on the people leading your church.

Cole:

Yeah. Check-in on the people around you because like, that's where that grows. And a lot of times, I feel like those leadership positions, they'll they'll sin and then they'll hide it because I'm in this leadership position.

Christian:

Yeah. And then you see the tip of the iceberg

Cole:

Mhmm.

Christian:

When it's been brewing for years. And Yeah. And there often could have been a way to correct it and not implode everything

Cole:

Yeah.

Christian:

If they started addressing it sooner.

Cole:

Yeah. So I think honestly, a a big purpose for this episode that, I mean, God kind of put on this episode was like, for encouragement to seek out community with other Christians and open an honest community and confession between one another. Because when we are confessing all the time and when we are talking to each other, that's the only way that you start to see less sin in your life, in my opinion. I mean, obviously walking with God, you'll see a lot less sin. But once you're to this point of sanctification, you need other Christians to talk to and to confess to.

Cole:

So seek them out because that's how you will keep growing into less sin in your life.

Christian:

Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. Praise God. Wow.

Christian:

What what an episode.

Cole:

Yeah. We we went but I feel like we I made it think we're

Christian:

pretty good about being topical.

Cole:

And I love it. I love it. I think there's so much to talk about and honestly, I'm so grateful for this this space because I think about this stuff a lot and I love a space where I can just sit down and like, blah. Yeah. Here's all of it.

Cole:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christian:

Yeah. This has been such an enlightening, encouraging time. Mhmm. Thank you for everyone who is joining us. If you haven't subscribed yet, please do subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you listen.

Christian:

I can say the podcaster thing. It dawned on me today that you're supposed to ask for a review. Yeah. So if you like the show, if you're enjoying it or not, you can be honest. Yeah.

Christian:

But Leave a review. Leave a review. Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll read each and every one.

Cole:

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Christian:

Also, we encourage your feedback, your questions, your episode ideas. You can email hey@saveaseatpod.com. It'll be in the show notes as well. Love to hear from you.

Cole:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited to hear you guys' thoughts. I honestly like leave a review. Leave a bad review.

Cole:

If you have a bad review, please leave it. Because we wanna we wanna build this into what the community needs. And if you feel like you need more out of it, then let us know. Yeah.

Christian:

Absolutely. I should give a quick little final update on the coffee Okay.

Cole:

I'm I'm so curious.

Christian:

It is it is good. It literally has like 10% coffee flavor in it. So it is like absolutely coffee adjacent. It's like coffee sneezed on the drink.

Cole:

I'm a do a half sweet next time. Okay. We're gonna do this again.

Christian:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, every you're just gonna propagandize me into starting to pay $8 for a decaf coffee.

Cole:

Sooner or later, he'll be coming in here and buying coffee from me.

Christian:

Yeah. It's all part of the plan.

Cole:

This is the whole podcast. That was the reason I started this, by the way. To get Yeah. One more Just to

Christian:

get me addicted addicted to decaf coffee.

Cole:

Oh, I love it. Let's pray out. Yeah.

Christian:

Let's do it.

Cole:

Yeah. Do you wanna do you wanna lead this one?

Christian:

Yeah. God, thank you so much for this discussion, for this space that you've provided for us to start this podcast. I thank you even for bringing Cole and I together that we just have this opportunity to be a light, just be your mouthpiece. God, I pray that this conversation has been productive and that anyone listening, if they if they they just don't know where to turn, that you would speak to them Yes, and Lord. That they would just know the people in their community to reach out to or they would reach out to us even.

Christian:

God, I just thank you for what you're doing with these conversations, and I pray that you continue to guide us as we navigate the next few episodes and just build this into what you want it to be.

Cole:

In the name I pray. Amen. Amen. Awesome. Alright.

Christian:

Well, we will catch all of you next week. Whoo. See you.