The Creative Pursuit

In this conversation, Erin and Kelly discuss their personal journeys with creativity and the impact it has had on their lives. They explore the concept of creativity as a means of self-expression and self-discovery, and how it enables them to connect with their true selves. They also touch on the challenges and insecurities that come with pursuing creative endeavors, and the importance of embracing imperfection and being present in the creative process.

What is The Til?

Hosts Kelly & Erin are friends from childhood, reconnected over their love for deep conversation and life. They'll cover topics like adult friendship, self-improvement, and raising kids.

Hey friends, thanks for showing up today. We're so glad you're here. I'm Kelly. I'm Erin. And this is The Till. My friendship with Kelly reaches as far back as our earliest memories as toddlers. We both grew up in Mexico, our parents were missionaries, and we formed a deep friendship as roommates in boarding school. Our friendship was deep, but of course we followed different paths into adulthood. We moved to different states, we built our families, and we eventually lost touch. Here we are 15 years later, reconnecting over the complexities of finding our way in a life that has no roadmap. And that has brought us to the till. We're convinced that the most beautiful life happens when we don't follow a script. We're thrilled to bring you into the conversations we're having on wholeness, intentionality, and presence. There's still so much life to be lived, so let's get to work.

Erin and I first reconnected a year and a half ago when Erin saw that I was out on a photo shoot to complete a coffee table book that I was working on. And she reached out just to say, I love that you're pursuing creativity. Like you're taking time to yourself, you're pursuing something just because you love it. And she was intrigued by that. We probably hadn't talked in maybe 10, 15 years. And so we started talking just about creativity and what it meant to me and just my own journey towards creative endeavors. And I mentioned The Artist's Way, which has been a really helpful and pivotal book for me in pursuing creativity and being able to say this is worth it, this is worth me pursuing. So for about a year, maybe six months, to a year, we talked about the artist's way, we talked about how hard it is to enter into creative endeavors. I just want to start off this conversation, Erin, asking you what struck you in the artist's way or what maybe felt like the moment or the idea that jolted you forward. Yeah.

It took me a little bit to get into, uh, or I guess to pick up the book and partially, I think it was because I was thinking it's really just geared toward writing. And also, I don't know if I really consider myself a creative or maybe more than that. Like I didn't really know if I was like qualified, I guess somehow. So, um, but when I did finally get to it, um, I right away, started identifying with the things that she was talking about because in the very beginning, she talked about how we all have a forget exactly, you're gonna have to remind me what she calls it like a muse maybe or something like that, like that person has like, it doesn't matter what your background is, or you know, what you believe, you don't have to have a specific set of beliefs to believe in something, I don't know. greater than yourself or outside the realm of what we can see. I don't remember exactly how she explains it, but I identified with that right away because I just appreciated, I guess, that she was a little bit more broad. She used broader terms and broader strokes than a very conservative Christian wording. And so I really appreciated that part of it. And after that, I mean, yeah, I kind of I was, I enjoyed all of it. And then I recently just came back to it and I was just, I'm actually listening to it. Um, so I was listening to the part where she talks about writing, um, morning pages, she calls them. And it's this concept of you read or sorry, you write three pages every single morning without fail. You'd never take a break.

And they are not meant to be thoughtful. They're not meant to be edited. They're not meant to even read again. I think she even says specifically, like, don't go back and read them. Um, or at least not for a long time, uh, because the whole purpose or I guess maybe I should say part of the purpose of it that we can understand and articulate is that we need to get things out of our head so that there is enough space in our head to actually get the work done that we want to do, or get the creative things done, produced that are going to be of value, both for ourselves and for our audience, whatever that looks like for us. So the part that I really liked that she said in there is like, if you are feeling like you hate writing that day, then write, I hate writing. This is so stupid. I can't believe I'm doing this. What a waste of time the continue writing, do not pick up that pen, just keep going. And so I have not gotten into this practice, but I can understand why it works because I have so many hangups in life, like so many mental hangups about like, oh, what if I can't, you know, execute on this as well as I want to or what if somebody doesn't You know, like what if it what if this podcast doesn't do as well as I want it to and so then I can't And I don't feel good about myself or you know, whatever whatever the thing is. It's like layer upon layer and I can a hundred percent see how like if I just like get that out of the way then I can actually then there's actually like space in my brain for the things that are more fun to think about and I don't know, like, somehow it just makes sense to me. So I think that's the part that I liked the most. I know that you have done some of the morning page work and I think you actually, did you go like through a course? Tell me about your experience with the book. I've tried twice to go through this book with a group of women and both times we only made it about halfway through and stopped. Yeah, because it's supposed to be like a 12 week course or... It's a course. You can read it, but yeah, it's developed to be a course. And so I've tried to make it through twice and admittedly never made it to the end of the book myself. But I do do morning pages. I've been doing them, man, it probably is about four or five years now. Wow.
I heard about morning pages for the first time at a creative retreat with Joy Prouty. And so she really advocated for them. And actually she said, I don't know a creative person, a successful creative person who doesn't do morning pages. She's like, everyone I know who's made it does morning pages. And so from that, I got The Artist's Way and started reading about the importance of them. And I find that they're very, helpful just for my daily life. Love doing the brain dump. But they aren't. I find that I write my way of like, this is what I want to be doing. I find I write that a lot. I want to be doing this. I want to be pursuing this. And to write that to yourself every day gets you over the hump of not doing it almost. It's like you're talking yourself into it. And to have that you know, free writing and she makes you do three pages, which is a lot. It takes a lot of writing to get to three pages. So you literally are like drawing every last thought out of your brain. And, and I have found I have completed so many creative projects simply because I'm talking about it to myself first thing in the morning, every morning. And it's, it's like a weird, a weird magic. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that's kind of how it sounds like it works. And some things are just like that. I know that there are other things that are like that, but the first thing that comes to my mind is the whole cold plunge thing. That's such a thing right now. Because yes, we understand some of the science, but some of it is like, you just feel better. And so just do it because you feel better.

Um, even you don't understand all the science behind it or whatever. So when do you find is most helpful to write the morning pages? Cause I think that's part of why I'm not really sure when to get, or how to get started because my days don't always start the same, just depending on if my kids are up or not. So, yeah, yeah, I've, I've done it different ways. Um, I've had periods of time where I've gotten up early and done them. I. sometimes do them after my kids go to school, after school drop off. I try to do it the first moment I have that's quiet. I spend the first hour of the day getting my kids ready for school and then after that, the next moment I have. That's hard when you have littles at home. That's not always practical. I think it just is like finding like this works. And once you get into a rhythm, it falls into place. I mean, we've just had the flu at our house for three weeks and I basically didn't write for the last month. And I'm realizing like, oh, I'm missing that practice in my life. Like I have not written in my notebook for three weeks now. So I need to get back and find where that rhythm can fit again. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe we should go through the book together. Maybe we would actually like make it all the way through.
Maybe we'd make it through. We should do it. Maybe that should be our summer. That should be our summer That's a good idea. So this podcast was a bit of a creative endeavor that we jumped in together. I know it doesn't always come across as creative, but it is. It takes planning. It takes a little bit of foresight and for you editing.

What have you noticed since bringing this endeavor into your life? Because we've been planning, scheming, working through this podcast for the last six months. So you have a creative endeavor that's been being played out. How does it feel? Good, exciting. I think it's, although at the same time, you can hear the hesitation of my voice, which is probably what I'm actually feeling. So it's a lot of just like trepidation, I feel. And it's not because I don't, like, I absolutely love things that fuel me in the way that doing creative things does. I love that, you know, I was just, I was working on editing a couple days ago and like three hours went by and You know, my watch was like, stand up, stand up, my Apple watch. Anyway, but I, you know, I love that part of it of just like having a vision and then like getting to actually express that vision. So like, you know, I have like a vision for how the episode needs to come together, what it needs to sound like, and the, you know, the different pieces that I need to put together. And I love the exercise of getting that from my head out. So, um, it doesn't, you know, like, I love, I love that I'm getting to, um, to work on that. And I also feel at the same time, like, I don't know, like maybe, maybe it's not as worthwhile or like, I don't know, there's just something about it that I'm like, I don't know if I really want to like call myself a podcaster yet. I don't know if I really want to take that take it that seriously. So there's also that part of it. It's just like, I'm learning to own it and to just be here. Yeah. Imposter syndrome's real and just owning it. I mean, that's hard for anyone in any creative practice to own who they are as an artist, for sure. Right. Yeah. I think that there's actually It's a little bit easier for me to like just paint something for fun than it is for me to edit this podcast that I know I'm doing for the benefit of other people. I mean, it really is for my benefit, but like that someone's going to consume this, even if it's like, you know, just our friends or whatever, that's kind of when the hangups come. So, yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's true. I, it is, it's. It's a whole nother step to put what you've created out in front of people. That's always, I think, one of the biggest hurdles to get over. It's interesting, as my husband was talking the other day, I'm going through a lot of, like, what am I doing with my life? Even though I've very specifically set apart the last year, year and a half, to be creative. And that's all I'm, you doing all my kids are in school now and I just said, this is what I want to pursue and this is what I'll be doing. It's hard to justify. And it was interesting because my husband was, he said, yeah, but Kelly, like everything you do, he said, you bring life into the world. And he went on to explain that he's like, you're doing pottery and you are making things and bringing them into the world.

for people to use or to see. And you're writing and you're bringing poetry into the world for people to consume. And I think that's such a simple thing to say, but I think I'd never thought about it. Like he was like, not everybody brings life into the world. Like very few people create. And he's like, that's valuable in and of itself to live that way. And I don't know, that just was, it's a perspective I haven't thought of it, because in my mind, I'm like, okay, I brought another bowl home from pottery or another vase. But yeah, there is value that you are producing something that wasn't there before. I don't know. I kind of liked chewing on that thought. Yeah, yeah. I just had a huge shift in my mindset when you were saying that because I think part of my imposter syndrome about creating something for someone else to consume or use or whatever is partially because I had this idea and I realized that I'm not the only one who thought this way, but as a child, I always saw adults as being like somehow like a superior being to children kind of Like that was like where you were trying to get to. And then once you got to adulthood, then you like, then you got it all figured out. What I'm, what I'm noticing is that I do still have the perception that like, if you are an artist, then you have somehow arrived. And then, you know, that somehow you have, I don't know, you, you basically have like, you have something that I don't. And that if that I can only call myself that once I get to, once I have what you have and I don't know what that thing is. But in hearing you talk, I'm realizing like, oh, duh. Like it's not, it is not about having the, like having the one thing to make myself an artist. It's about the process, you know, it's about like being like your husband was telling you, like producing, like, you know, bringing things into the world, that is a value, bringing joy to other people because they love the thing that you produce or whatever, like, that is enough. And I don't know. So I just, I don't even know if that made sense where I went with that, but just the way that you described it, it's like, oh, yeah, that's totally what it is, is I feel like I haven't arrived and that is not a thing. It's not that, oh, I actually have arrived. No, arriving is not a thing. That is not a component. Yes. No, everything's always evolving. We're at a weird time in life because I think for most millennials, art wasn't valued as we were being raised growing up. We didn't have the internet, we didn't have the foresight of social media, which really has lent so much to the creative world and the creative space where now you can, you have a place to share your art. Nothing's gate kept. There's no gate keeping in social media. People can share what they've made so much more easily. And so. we kind of are at a disadvantage where I've noticed that generations who are younger than us are diving in to creativity full force. They're diving into that creative space where I find maybe a little bit harder for our generation and older to feel like we have permission to be creative and that it is a value. Yeah, for sure. 100%. Yeah. So I have another question for you. So.. One thing that I do not remember you as is being a creative person. Like, you know, we've known each other since we were little and your family was always the athletic family. And I never saw you as a creative person. I don't remember you ever doing creative things as we were growing up. I could just be forgetting, but I don't remember that at all. So what was it that kind of opened your eyes to creativity being an important component of your life? Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. No, you're very right. I came from a very athletic family and didn't pursue anything artistic really, even through college that I can think of. I think I always liked crafts. Like maybe you would have considered myself a crafty person. I actually scrapbooked a lot in high school. But I think I liked working on projects. I liked baking a lot. I used to make recipes all the time, like makeup recipes. But again, not something that's really visible. But I think that was where I could express any form of creativity. I think once I was a young mom, I was a stay at home mom and my husband traveled a lot and we moved a lot. All of that combined, I realized I needed an outlet for myself. I needed to figure out something for myself. It probably started with decorating. Fine, I'll... found a decorating blog and I was like, I'll figure out how to decorate my home and have fun with that. And with that came a lot of projects. One of those projects I did was a wood burning of flowers, like botanical kind of sketches. And I liked it enough and I had, you know, I posted it on Instagram and had enough people comment on it that I was like, maybe I'll make this into a thing. And yeah And then that was my Etsy shop. I started an Etsy shop. Honestly, my thought was my husband's traveling all the time. I'm home with a two -year -old and a baby, and I'm going to be a really angry person if I don't find something for myself. And so I almost didn't care if the Etsy shop was successful. I just needed something to pour myself into. And with that, there's a lot of backend stuff. in business to figure out there's, I had to figure out photography to take pictures and to market what I was doing. And so it gave me an outlet that I needed. And from there, I just kept evolving. One thing led to another and I just kept pursuing creative outlets. I love that. That's so cool. So how about for you? Because I actually viewed your family, your family is very musical, which I, you know, is, is artistic, you know, fits in that category. Um, you sang, um, growing up and even now, you know, I see you doing projects on your home, doing, you know, renovations and furniture projects. What do you think, where's the connection for you of moving towards being like, I can work on projects, I can sing, to more of finding it as an identity or even moving into that flow that you were talking about from the artist's way of stepping into your muse and being like, oh, this is who I am. Have you found that for yourself, I guess? Yeah. So I do think I have found glimpses of it. I don't know. Um, so I guess, yes, the answer is yes, I have. I kind of just saw each thing, you know, there were always just like things that I did, individual things that I did. And I never really thought of it as being like a part of me. And also I'd never really thought of it as being necessary. I thought, you know, it was just like an individual thing. I just had basically very low self awareness kind of for a very, very long time. And I think it was just, you know, I was protecting myself. you know, that's just what I needed. And so once I was able to kind of get past that and realize, okay, I don't need that protector anymore. I can be self -aware because it's I'm safe, you know, I'm in a place where I'm safe. And then I was able to kind of start exploring like, oh, I really, I really do enjoy working on my home. One of my brothers is an actor, And a few years back, we were talking about how he does character development when he's preparing for a show. And I remember him telling me about, you know, some of the classes that he was in or that he had been, been in in college, and how they were like really very intimate. I don't know if he used that word, but you know, somehow he described them just as being very I guess maybe vulnerable is a better way to say it, like a kind of bearing their souls to each other. And I remember thinking like, why? Why would you do that kind of thing? And then, and I remember him telling me like, that is where you know, like once you've stripped all the junk off, that's when you can actually get into another character because you because you kind of understand that that's not you and you can put on someone else's face, but then you can also take it off because you know exactly who you are. And exercising my creativity actually is a very healthy place for me to function from because it really forces me to be 100 % honest with who I am, with the things that I think and feel, which I think will forever be a struggle for me because I grew up wearing a lot of masks. As a kid that grew up in a culture that was very, that forced me to be a lot more straight edged than I am. I learned to wear a lot of masks and then I couldn't really identify which things are me, which things are the mask. So creativity is a thing that keeps me in touch with the crux of who Erin is. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. That really resonates with me as well. Because I think in a similar way, creativity for me, I've realized now that I have language to say it this way, but I've realized I am someone who disassociates all the time. I'm getting better at it. But I realized looking back at the last decade that I've been so drawn to creativity because I feel so alive in it. Because to be creative and to get into that flow, you have to be really present, right? And you're pouring out, you're focused, you're present. And so I found creativity to be an outlet of feeling fully alive not realizing in my normal day -to -day life that I was so disassociated. Again, a protective mechanism that I adopted. But yeah, that really resonates with me of why you're so drawn to it. Yeah. You don't have to go into this super deeply, but if you could just touch a little bit on what you feel like.why you dissociated so often or I don't know exactly like what the best way to ask that is, but maybe just like high level, just because I know that there are others that probably are going to learn something from our conversations. I think that was my protective layer. Dissociation is, I'm not going to get this definition right, but as I understand it or as I can articulate it in the moment is kind of withdrawing from yourself, withdrawing from the present moment and disappearing. Like my physical body's present, but my mind and heart and soul are not. And I think it was my way of hiding growing up as a kid. You I had to be physically present. I didn't have a choice to leave situations. And so I learned to let my mind leave. But in doing that, I imagine it was often enough. I wasn't aware as a kid that I was doing it, but I imagine I did it often enough that it's translated into my everyday life. Where my husband will be like, where are you? Like, hey, the kids are talking to you, where are you? And I won't even hear. It will be in the car and the kids will be yelling my name and I won't. I do that too, actually. My husband says the same thing. That's a very... Where did you go? How are you not listening? That's a very easy way. It seems more like zoning out. I think there are layers to it that get way... There's times I can disassociate and I have to know and recognize and bring myself to the front.

Okay. To wrap up our conversation, what is one or maybe two things that you feel like you would have wished someone told you as you were learning those things about creativity. Yeah, that's a good question. Don't hold back. I wish someone had said don't hold back. When you start a creative endeavor, normally we're so hesitant. We want to do it well. We want
We don't know if we're gonna do it right. We don't want people to laugh or be like, what are they doing? And I have learned as I've jumped into different disciplines of creativity to just like, oh, you just have to go for it. You have to get so messy into that endeavor that you fight your way through. And I wish I hadn't wasted so much time overthinking and being careful because you really learn by making mistakes. That's how you become who you wanna be is you have to fight your way through mistakes. So yeah, 100%. Anyone who comes to me and is like, hey, I'm thinking about this, I will always be like, jump in, like do it, jump in, like just dive in head first. And I can't say that enough. How about for you? What would be your advice? Finding perfect is not the goal. That being in the process is the goal. That being there is the goal. So that I wasn't just waiting for the time when I could finally produce something that really got my vision perfectly but instead just seeing the value in like just being there, just showing up because now I get that. And I think had I understood that, let's say 15 years ago, I could be like in a much different place than I am now, like just trying to learn that lesson, you know, with young kids in my life, so busy, you know, I wish that I would have figured that out, you know, when I was like, had so much more time and space, but. Yeah. Hey, but we're here now. We're on the way. We're here now. Yes, exactly. I feel like this is a perfect segue from our first episode into the second because we talked a decent amount in the first episode just about, you know, like experiencing magic and looking for those moments of presence and another beautiful conversation. Thanks so much. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. Thank you for showing up likewise. Anything we talked about today will be linked in the show notes. So check that out for further information on our resources for today's episode. Please subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening and follow us on Instagram at the till podcast, message us on Instagram or email us at podcast, the till at gmail .com. All one word. We're eager to hear from our listeners to help shape the future of what the till is to become. The till needs you, yes you, to take part in the community we are creating. Rate the podcast and the app you're using to listen and share it with your friends on social media. That'll bring others like you our way, which would be so helpful to us. See you next week.