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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Jeremy: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.
Tonight, we're talking about the very
early 2000s indie horror darling film May.
I am your host, Jeremy Whitley,
and with me tonight, I have a
panel of cinephiles and Cenobites.
Ben is off today, so first,
the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
our co host, Emily Martin.
How are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: Hangin in there.
It's gonna be, it's July right now, but
Jeremy: It will eventually be May.
Emily: It'll eventually be May,
that's the moral of this story,
is that it'll eventually be May.
Jeremy: I don't think that song
would have done nearly as well.
It will eventually be May.
I don't think it would hit the Charts.
And our guest tonight, the writer
of We Don't Go Back, A Watcher's
Guide to Folk Horror, Sean Ingram.
Sean, welcome.
Sian: Hi.
Hi.
Yeah.
So, good to be here.
I'm really honored to be asked.
Hello everyone.
And hello to everyone listening at home.
so yeah.
We were going to talk about
May this evening, weren't we?
Jeremy: Well, uh, before we jump too
far into that, why don't you tell people
a little bit about, uh, what you do
about your books and, um, you know,
maybe even what you've got coming up.
Sian: okay.
So I've been a writer for about 20 years.
Um, uh, much earlier in my career, I
wrote role playing games for a living
for a publisher called White Wolf.
And I have 46 credits for
them between 2005 and 2009.
After that
Jeremy: The way Emily's eyes lit
up when you said White Wolf was
Sian: yeah, but I wrote the ones
that no one liked, um, Vampire the
Requiem and Promethean and I've got
a big chunk of the rule book for the
first edition of Changing the Dream.
I was in all the books of Hunter the Vigil
alongside Chuck Wendig, who also doesn't
like to talk about it, and, uh, Yeah,
don't mention his White Wolf stuff to him.
And, uh,
Emily: to know.
Sian: yeah.
And, yeah, um, after that,
did a whole bunch of stuff.
I still write role playing
games occasionally for a lovely
publisher called Green Ronin.
Most recently a book called
Cthulhu Awakens, which is a look
at, a fresh revisionist look
at all of that Lovecraft stuff.
Which is not afraid to look at
the bits that everybody knows
about by now with open eyes.
around 2015 2016, I started
taking off as a writer of non
fiction wrote several books.
The one that was most successful was
called We Don't Go Back, A Watcher's
Guide to Folk Horror which was Um,
nominated for a Bram Stoker award in
2008, 2019, and which you can still
find on the evil repository of all
things that are owned by Jeff Bezos.
I've recently got a number of
books in the works at the moment.
I have a book that I announced ages
ago called The Question in Bodies,
which does feature a discussion of
May, which is our subject this evening,
and which should come out either
the end of this year or next year.
I also have an as yet unannounced book
that I'm writing for Red Wheel Wiser.
which should come out in 2025, as long as
I can finish it by the end of this year.
So that's me.
You can also, actually,
I was on a movie as well.
You can also see me on Kayla Janisse's
documentary, Woodlands Dark and Days
Bewitched, a history of folk horror.
Emily: I haven't seen
that, but I've seen it.
I've, I've been wanting to watch it.
I've seen it on, uh, Shudder.
Sian: yes,
Emily: I know it's on
Sian: uh, it is a time investment, but
it's well worth that time, I think.
And I appear on it under my dead
name, as most of these things
are, since in the last two years
I did come out as trans as well.
So, that's where I am right now.
Emily: Excellent.
Jeremy: fantastic.
Now tonight we are talking about
May, which you mentioned it is.
The first feature film by director
Lucky McKee, uh, who other people may
have seen other things by Lucky McKee,
I know I personally have seen a few
of, uh, Lucky McKee's movies including
The Woman, All cheerleaders die.
And, uh, the best episode of the
TV show Poker Face, uh, which
is called Time of the Monkey
Sian: I haven't seen that.
Jeremy: Poker Face is a fantastic
show, which I generally recommend,
but Time of the Monkey is, uh,
a story about, uh, murder that
takes place at an old folks home.
And Natasha Lyonne is the main character
in that show and, is investigating, trying
to figure out who, who did the murder.
centers around two fabulous old ladies
that she befriends and is trying to help.
Sian: Yeah, he also did an episode
of Masters of Horror, um, called
Sick Girl, which includes the, um,
star of erotic spoof cinema, Misty
Monday, along with Angela Bettis,
who's in May, and the woman as well.
yeah, Misty Monday's, cinematic oeuvre
includes such things as Playmate of the
Apes and, uh, And other great classics
like that so yeah I haven't seen, I
haven't seen all cheerleaders die.
I have seen the woman and that film
is, it punches you so hard in the guts.
It goes right through into your stomach
and then grabs it and twists it.
It's a nasty film.
It
Jeremy: All Cheerleaders Die is
much more sort of fun and campy.
It's as fun as, fun and campy as you can
be with there being a lot of like domestic
violence stuff at the center of it.
Um, but it's about a girl who is
trying to, uh, get revenge and
inadvertently in the process.
a whole bunch of cheerleaders die and
she reanimates them and, uh, is trying
to get them to help her get revenge
on these guys who are responsible
for both her own issues and the
death of the cheerleaders in this.
So yeah,
Sian: does actually sound pretty great,
Jeremy: it's a weird, I feel like
midpoint between Mei and Mean Girls.
So,
Sian: Oh, wow.
Yes.
Jeremy: witches and zombie
cheerleaders and all that.
So, it's definitely worth a watch.
And it's pretty easy to find these
days, if I remember correctly.
It's on a lot of things, free.
Emily: How's the sad
animal death in that one?
Any, uh,
Jeremy: none that I remember.
Certainly not as central as
the sad animal death in May.
Which I guess,
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: fair trigger warning if
you got a problem with self harm
or graphic violence or sad animal
death, this one's gonna getcha.
Um, now
Sian: even for me, a particular trigger
warning for really awkward comedies of
Emily: Oh, Yes.
Yeah, that was, well,
we'll talk about that.
Jeremy: star, uh, Angela Bettis, who's the
eponymous May in this, uh, and also 2000's
favorites, Jeremy Sisto and Anna Faris.
Both of them I think are
fantastic and are great in this
Sian: Yeah,
Jeremy: Um, Anna Faris is
doing something in this movie.
She is really, she's somewhere between
like 2000's Mean Girl and 20's Flapper.
And I don't know, it kind of works.
Sian: I think Anna Faris is one of the
unsung heroes of this film, actually.
I think Anna Faris is one of those
people who basically is in many worse
films than she deserves to be in,
Jeremy: Yeah, she is the funniest
thing in a lot of movies.
Emily: Yeah,
Sian: Yeah.
And she's funny in May, and she's kind
of a genuinely interesting character
who you do really need to talk about
quite in quite depth, quite some depth,
because she's a good counterpoint to
Jeremy Sisto's character, since both
of them, those two characters are
the fulcrum on which May's collapse
sort of happens, really, aren't they?
Jeremy: Yeah,
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: let me do try and do a quick
recap of this It's it is a messy movie
to try and do a recap of because it
is sort of as you suggested very much
about a downward slide Collapse in
May's case So we're introduced to
me at the beginning is quite young.
She has a lazy eye which she's
taught to be extremely conscious
about by her perfect mom.
Her mom is a lot and very like,
yeah those were scare quotes for
anybody who didn't hear that.
may have to wear an eye patch when
she goes to school because of her
eye, uh, has troublemaking friends.
So her mom gives her a doll, uh, that
she said can be her friend because
if you can't make friends, if you
can't make friends, then you create
Sian: Now, if you can't find
a friend, then make one.
Emily: your own.
Yes.
Jeremy: find a friend, make your own.
Sian: Yeah, but see, her apparently
perfect mother is clearly, I mean,
there's clearly supposed to be some
kind of sort of like point made about
how we're traumatized by emotionally
distant parents and everything there.
But I think, and this is one of my
favorite things about May, and one of
the most difficult and weird things
about it, is that I think it, the film
is an example of accidentally brilliant
representation of neurodiversity.
And that includes the way that
neurodiversity is generational
Jeremy: You know, I agree with you.
I don't know how accidental it is.
I feel like that is frequently
something I wonder with Lucky McKee.
Because All Cheerleaders Die has a sort of
a similar thing of like, it's, I feel like
if Lucky were a female director, you would
read all of this stuff as intentional
and on point sort of like, intentionally
awkward, intentionally hard to handle.
And with, with a male director,
writer slash director you're
sort of made to wonder like how
sometimes how much of it he gets.
Um, but I do think, having seen
a few of his movies, that I, I
feel like, I don't know, some of
it is, is definitely intentional.
But it's, it's hard to say, I
think, in, in any given moment
of the movie, like, how much of
what he's doing he really knows.
Like, as far as, especially the
representation of, of the mother and
how the mother treats Mae, and how that
reflects then on how Mae sees herself.
Emily: yeah, well, I feel like there's
a, there's an information missing,
which to me could I either go to
subtle representation or a kind of
awkward handling of it, and the subtle
rep, like, I feel like there's, this
is I relate to this because this is
definitely a movie that's trying to
make a statement that doesn't really
have the, wherewithal, or the uh, the
Jeremy: I think in 2002 it
doesn't have the vocabulary
Emily: yeah, yeah.
That's, yeah, it, that's
perfectly said, actually.
So, yeah.
It, you
Sian: you like the film?
Emily: Me?
Sian: Yeah.
Emily: Not really.
Um,
Jeremy: like May, but I think it is
a very early 2000s in a lot of ways.
I think there's just this
grungy characteristic to it that
feels very much of the time.
And it feels like, I know, like,
All Cheerleaders Die is actually the
first thing that Lucky McKee made,
made it as a short film, and then
came back to it like 20 years later.
And I feel like May feels both like
a first movie and like something
that if you were to come back and
remake it now, I think you could make
a better version of it, or at least
a more self aware version of it.
Sian: But then on the other hand, it's
the sort of film that you couldn't remake.
Cause I think you, you're
right that it is of its time.
I think for one thing, it's
a mud ball core horror film.
It's essentially,
Emily: Oh,
Sian: is the lie?
Emily: Yeah, that is really
Sian: It is the mumble core horror film.
Emily: Oh
Sian: It is.
It's from that era where that sort of
Indie film was being made where slack
people had awkward conversations in
laundries and where they didn't really
connect, but try to, and where you had a
soundtrack, which was done by, legendary
alternative rock bands of the 90s.
In this case, in this case, Basically any
band with the deal sisters in, um, because
it's all, all the soundtracks done by
the breeders and the Kelly deal 5, 000,
Emily: Mm hmm.
Sian: Which I think is lovely,
but it does really date it.
This is a film that is, it's weird.
It's like a horror film that has a
Richard Linklater kind of, kind of early
Richard Linklater kind of feel to it.
And you know, Lucky McKee's clearly
capable of other things if you've
seen anything else he's made.
Emily: I haven't seen anything else, but
it sounds, I mean, I'm intrigued because
this is definitely, like, well, from what
Jeremy was saying about all cheerleaders.
Etc.
I,
Jeremy: I think it's interesting to put
this movie in the context of other horror
movies that were coming out at this time,
because I think looking at it broadly
in the history of horror, stuff that we
have now, it's like, oh, well, it's okay.
But if you think about the fact
that like everything else that was
coming out in 2002 is either like
Resident Evil and Queen of the Damned
or the ring, the English language
ring re remake or American Psycho
2 or, uh, any number of, of things
that are based on Japanese horror
movies being re released as American
Sian: horror remakes were a thing.
I, I, I'm I right in thinking that
the original Japanese ring didn't
actually hit the States until after
Gore Verbinski's version came out?
Apart from in bootlegs and things?
Jeremy: it's pretty much simultaneous,
Emily: yeah, I
Sian: Right, right.
Because obviously we had it in 1998,
Emily: Yeah, but it was, it was released
on DVD simultaneously with the movie,
but I don't think there's a lot of.
knowledge about, I mean, there wasn't
like niche about the original at the time.
But the thing I wanted to say before
we continue the, the recap is that
this movie is, I feel like it's less
of a horror movie and more like that
mumblecore there's a lot of young
directors at that point that were just
like trying to evoke some kind of Jim
Jarmusch like character interaction.
There was that movie Dream with the Fishes
and there was like Ghost World and a
lot of these very quirky little movies.
that sort of had, yeah, yeah, exactly.
This one doesn't have like the same,
because it's a horror movie, it
doesn't have the same kind of fairy
tale element that some of these other
movies did, especially stuff like
Dreaming with the Fishes or, uh, Um,
Sian: narrow it down, does it?
You
Emily: I know, yeah,
Jeremy: this is in everything.
Emily: or like the Doom Generation.
That's what this
Sian: yeah, all right, great.
Yeah, so we're thinking Richard
Linklater, some of Jim Jarmusch's
early films, although that guy's
got a much wider kind of look, take
on things, and maybe Gregoraki.
He did the Doom Generation, didn't
Emily: Yeah,
Sian: Yeah, so yeah, you're right.
It's that sort of thing going on,
only it's turned into a slasher comedy
towards the end, and I have to be
really careful with this because I
remember when I was writing for that
role playing games company years ago
and we did one of the games and May was
actually in the list of film things and I
Emily: yeah, yeah,
Sian: with the list of film intros who
we don't talk about because he's just
a bad bad guy but he described May as
unflinching, visceral, and unrelenting.
And I'm like, did you
watch the same movie?
Because I, I see it as a film that
had quite, uh, quite a light touch.
I see it as a film with quite a
light touch, and I see it as a
film that has a lot of the beats
of 1990s slacker comedy as well.
Emily: this movie was all
flinching like it was it was
about people flinching to each
Sian: Yeah, yeah.
And, If you're not into flinching, and
I'm not normally into flinching myself
I can't even watch The Marvelous Mrs.
Maisel without having to leave the room
about three times in an episode, right?
That's the sort of, that's
my level for awkwardness.
It's like, I can watch, you know, Martyrs?
Fine.
Okay.
Possession is literally
my favorite movie, right?
People having awkward conversations
where they're misunderstood.
I'm out.
Can't do it.
Jeremy: Yeah, this is like a I feel
like it's a social horror movie.
Like, the, the horror in it
Sian: a social horror movie.
Jeremy: is it is what the
kids today would call cringe.
It is so much of this movie
watching it for me is spent going,
Emily: yeah, my head is like
down like my ears are touching
my shoulders the whole movie.
Sian: And a lot of that is
because Mae is neurodiverse and
she's presented as neurodiverse.
And I think there's a long tradition
in horror of presenting neurodiverse
people, either accidentally
or deliberately, really well.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: Simply because the signifiers,
traditional signifiers of weird are the
signifiers of neurodiversity under stress.
I have an ADHD diagnosis that has written
in black and white, severely impaired.
And and also a diagnosis of autism.
Both of these are quite late.
I was the last person to notice
which is always the way, really.
The doctor who I went to for
an ADHD diagnosis said, Oh, and
here's the number for the local
autism self referral service.
Cause you know, you're
also autistic, obviously.
And I had to go silent and
have a deep think after that.
Because I did not.
But Mae, Mae is autistic and Mae's, Mae's
mum's clearly autistic as well, right?
Because she says, she, she pulls out a
piece of classic homespun wisdom, if you
can't find a friend, make one, and then
literally shows her one that she made
Emily: Yeah, the literalism
Sian: Oh, and you're not
allowed to touch her.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: and the, doll in this is so
very symbolism 101, like, it's very
like, she's your friend, you cannot
touch her, taking her out of the case,
being her being touched would ruin her.
it's very like, All right.
That's that has set Mei up for an entire
life of not being able to negotiate,
like, social situations and spaces.
Um, that she sends her to school for
the first day in a, an eye patch and
the kid asked if she's a pirate and she
doesn't know how to respond to it because
she doesn't have she doesn't have the
social ability to deal with this stuff.
And then like, her mom's reaction is
like, Oh, play with this doll instead.
Don't actually play with it though.
Just look at it.
Um, yeah.
And I think, I think you're
onto something with that.
Sian: May ends the film becoming the doll,
Jeremy: Yeah.
Sian: the personality with
which she imputes on the doll
is that of a basic bitch.
The doll is jealous.
And when May becomes the doll, I like, I
mean, all of these things are like yeah,
I think neurodiverse people are often
stereotyped as excessively literal, right?
know, and you sort of see that
we, but actually we connect
obliquely with each other.
Generally, we connect through stories
through relatable kind of connection.
And that ironically makes us look
like we're selfish and self absorbed,
which is like one of the reasons they
call us autistic in the first place.
But like, you've got May's mother
who is both, and I don't, again,
deliberately or accidentally presented
as a parent who is attempting desperately
to connect and failing miserably.
Jeremy: The dad is,
is
absent, like literally, but but
he is, seen just sort of in the
background in these opening scenes,
just is very much the mood of
every male character in this movie.
Just sort of.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: that's true, including Jeremy Sisto.
Jeremy: yeah, especially Jeremy Cyto.
Sian: yeah, I mean, I think it's
a really complex thing because we
mess our families up, and ourselves,
and our only fault really lies in
us having no clue what we're doing,
Emily: Yeah.
I mean
Sian: that's not an excuse.
While at the same time it kind
of is, but it kind of, basically
our intentions are asphalts on
the, on the highway to damnation.
They are, Like we do have this,
we have this honest desire for
connection and sometimes we
do monstrous things out of it.
And you've got Matt who's given
all these signifiers of weird,
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: Which turn out to be the
signifiers of obvious autism, right?
Um, and
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: representation.
I do think it is good representation.
I do think it is honest representation.
And I, I mean, when you see autism in
non generous stuff and you see like
shows that have explicitly autistic
characters, they include characters like
Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory, right?
For those of you listening at home
Emily just did an amazing eye roll, man.
Um, and.
Or, or like, also there's a show
that was on Netflix a few years ago
called Atypical, where you have an
autistic boy who solves autistic
problems autistically, with an autistic
expression on his autistic face.
And he has,
Jeremy: good doctor.
Sian: yeah, like the good doctor, and he
has this expression of mild consternation
on his face all the time, and speaks
in an affected monotone, and it's,
oh, I'm making Italian
frustration hands at this point.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I, I think the biggest difference I think
between the perception of autism in,
2002 and now is the idea of a spectrum.
And, and you know that not all
people who are dealing with autism
are autistic in the same way.
And on different levels.
Not everybody is.
Rain Man or Sheldon.
Um,
Sian: I mean, I mean, back in 2002 there
I knew a lot of people who were militantly
Asperger's and used that with particular
Emily: Yeah, yeah,
Sian: we don't use anymore because,
fuck that guy, but yeah yeah, you
can say rude words on this, this
Jeremy: Oh, absolutely.
Sian: okay, that's fine, um,
Emily: it.
Fuck yeah.
Sian: yeah, okay, yeah, fuck yeah, cool
Emily: I used the C word in
the last one that was released.
So I Yes
Sian: I mean, May, because May's autistic.
She's hard work, and speaking as someone
who spent many decades being hard work.
And actually learning how not to be
hard work by adopting a series of
complex choose your own adventure style
menus in my head to, like, run through
conversations so that even though I'm
actually extroverted, I am an extrovert
because I, but I'm the kind of extrovert
that finds life through communicating
with people as opposed to the kind of
extrovert that isn't really an extrovert.
It's just an introvert
with a drinking problem.
And
that kind of, kind of need to connect.
You sort of see that and you have
to realize, I realized at some point
that I had to become the sort of
person who was able to manipulate
manipulate, navigate these conversations.
That was an unfortunate slip.
Navigate these conversations.
And that meant figuring
out what to say next.
Emily: yeah, well, and then it's weird
because when you're self aware and
you're masking, you know, my, I don't
have an official autism diagnosis.
I, I was just recently, I
diagnosed with OCD, ADHD and,
other forms of neuro spices.
Yeah and, my, uh, my therapist is very
attentive to the, like, autism adjacent
stuff that, you know so, that's,
I'm sort of in the middle there, but
again, you know, as someone growing
up in the 90s who was born in the 80s,
you know, that wasn't, that didn't
have the vocabulary for all of these
things I totally understand and also
like when you're that it's not unlike
it's not manipulation of other people.
It's manipulation of your own mask, right?
It's manipulation of how you
want to present to other people.
And a lot of times, uh, and I think
may is a really good example of this.
A lot of times there are rules.
that you feel like, okay, you
know, as long as I can follow
these rules, this should work.
And that comes from her mom, which
is the fact that, you know, her mom
is like, you have to follow these
particular rules and I made them
work so you could make them work.
And, and that's not specific to neuro
spiciness, but it's certainly aggravated
by undiagnosed neuro, uh, divergence
and the, yeah, so there's a lot there.
Um, but.
Jeremy: Yeah.
And they use then the case of the doll,
I think is a metaphor throughout this
for, you know, Mae's own sort of attempt
to connect in her own mask breaking.
Um, and that, that becomes, that
starts from the very beginning, you
know, we get it pretty early on.
Sian: I mean, like the bright the
gradual cracking of the doll's case
Jeremy: yeah,
Sian: is the breaking
of the mask, isn't it?
Um, and it's not a very good mask
to begin with, let's be honest,
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah, so we're introduced
to current grown up May.
We don't, I don't catch
exactly how old she is.
20 sometime.
But she continues to try
and connect with people.
She's got very little
locker skill with it.
She does get corrective lenses
for her eyes so that she can she
has to wear the glasses still,
but it helps with the lazy eye.
The only person she really, or the
only thing she really connects with.
Are sewing and working at the animal
hospital and she connects there with
Polly played by Anna Faris, who's
the administrative assistant at the
vet's office, uh, who is definitely
flirting with her from the moment she's
introduced and May has some difficulty
picking up on it, it seems and also
Polly's endgame is sort of unclear for
the flirting from moment one as well,
Sian: mean, Polly's surname
is probably Amorous.
Jeremy: yeah.
Emily: well, she does have a f Yeah.
She does have a friend named Ambrosia
Sian: Yeah.
Jeremy: she's,
Emily: up as milk, so.
Jeremy: she's a lot.
Um, also she develops a crush on a, a, uh,
guy she doesn't know, sees around places
named Adam, who's played by Jeremy Sisto.
And she thinks that he has the
most beautiful hands in the world.
Uh, he also works at a local
body shop, the car kind where he
is, repairing and fixing cars.
There's also a lot of very close ups of
him handling cigarettes with his hands.
As she,
Emily: which is important.
Jeremy: yeah, as she,
Sian: I mean, yeah.
Jeremy: him gently stalks
him for, to start out with,
Sian: One of the things about the
aesthetic of horror films is that
they often, horror films often
drawback to the aesthetic of the
decade before in wider cinema
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: or horror films, probably.
So the fact that this is like a 90s
indie movie is very obvious right down
to like many of the songs are from, I,
cause, cause I'm I was an infuriating
indie nerd back in the early nineties.
And so.
The Breeders album, Last Splash,
from which half of the stuff,
songs on this movie come from.
Um, great favourite of mine 1992.
So they're all from ten years
before this movie came out.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: yeah, and, and
gauging from the fact,
Sian: really.
Um,
Jeremy: that it's, uh, uh, the,
uh, first feature film, it was
probably written then as well.
Sian: yes, indeed.
I mean, I mean, one of the things about
Adam is that he, and actually Polly,
to a lesser extent, are characters
who think they're in a different film.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sian: sort of movie to the movie that
May's actually in, and again, we're coming
back to this sort of mumble core slacker
comedy drama kind of thing going on.
They think they're in that movie, and Anna
Faris is in the slightly kookier version.
And he's in the slightly more
hipster version, but, and of course
he sees himself as a horror fan.
He loves a bit of Dario Argento.
He,
Emily: poster that he modified.
Sian: you see that, and he
thinks, she says I'm a bit
weird, and he says I like weird.
It's like, yes, but do you?
But he thinks she's a
manic pixie dream girl,
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Sian: of course doesn't exist,
Emily: Yes.
Jeremy: Yeah, I think this,
Sian: dream girls are actually all
sort of non binary bisexuals, in fact.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: The portrayal of Adam in this
movie, I think is one of the most ahead
of the curve things about this movie.
Yeah.
And that he is a guy that I feel like
we in, we run into a lot in current or
more recent horror movies who thinks
that he is the freaky dude who's
going to really impress the like,
the, girl who doesn't, who obviously
girls aren't into like weird stuff.
By like being edgy and his edginess only
extends as far as like the art that he
can make and people he can like weird
out with how cool and indie he is.
And the moment that he has to deal
with anybody who's actually dealing
with anything difficult or that
like he meets a person who is by
his definition, weird he's out.
Like He doesn't, he doesn't
know how to handle it.
we just recently talked about, uh,
Lisa Frankenstein and there's a very
similar, like, I'm into cool, edgy stuff.
Oh, actually I'm not into girls
who are into cool, edgy stuff.
I'm into the cool, edgy stuff and
showing you how cool and edgy I am.
Emily: yeah, the dude has to be the
edgiest, most hipster person in the room.
Sian: I love how terrible
his student film is.
Right down to the fact that
the credits are in Italian.
Because he's like, he's
like, I made a giallo.
I'm like, I'm into Italian zombie movies.
Because don't you know, they got
banned in the UK in the 1980s.
And it's like, oh, really, did they?
oh, do you think they need
a critical reassessment?
Do they?
Um, sorry, sore point for me.
Emily: It's okay, no, a friend of mine,
Sian: needs a critical assessment.
He's like, oh, can I
show you this library?
I've got, you
Jeremy: Yeah.
Emily: What if a friend of a friend,
this, a friend of mine gets made
fun of by their friend because we're
always watching horror movies together,
my friend and I, and their friend
calls them Italian pervert movies And
Sian: It's not wrong.
Emily: I know, I know, and we're
like, first of all, we're watching
Clive Barker movies, not Italian, and
these are, artisanal pervert movies,
Jeremy: The artisanal
British pervert movies.
with dubbed over American voices.
Emily: yeah, sometimes,
Sian: sorry.
Yeah.
Emily: or they're Lord of Illusions.
Sian: god.
I'm so sorry.
Um,
Jeremy: we just talked about Dread
a couple of weeks ago and, and the
fact that everybody in that movie
is British doing the most Benedict
Cumberbatch American accents.
Emily: Hello, I am, I am from America.
Sian: yeah, I mean Hellraiser
is supposed to be set in America
Emily: Yeah,
Sian: And it's like, parts of it
filmed in London and parts of it filmed
in Toronto So And then Hellraiser
2 is definitely filmed in America.
You like move from this British house,
walk down the road, and suddenly
you're like in an American hospital.
Emily: yeah,
Sian: Yeah I still won't hear
a word against Hellraiser.
The other movies, we can move on.
Anyway, we're not talking about that.
But yeah, Adam's terrible student
film is so pretentiously terrible
because he doesn't get, I think, I
love that's, I really appreciate The
sort of gag that you don't actually
need to know the background of to get,
but if you do, it is a bit funnier.
But you don't need to know
that to actually enjoy it,
Emily: yeah,
Sian: you know, and I think
it's one of those jokes.
The fact if you've actually watched a
few Italian horror movies, you're looking
at this guy and you're like, Oh my god,
you think you're Lucio Fulci, don't you?
Jeremy: The wildest thing about
this movie is that Jeremy Sisto's
character never says the name
Quentin Tarantino on screen, but he's
Sian: fair point.
Yeah,
Jeremy: that guy, like,
Emily: absolutely.
Jeremy: mm,
Sian: Yeah, he is that dude.
And that's kind of the problem because
actually, as you go on, because
obviously he just ghosts her when he
discovers she's too weird for him.
Emily: And he has no idea how
to, how to communicate anything.
Sian: and then you see his poor new
girlfriend, who, who again is, um,
Norris Zetner, um, Norris Zetner, I
can't remember, I don't know how to
pronounce her name, but she's a stalwart
of indie movies of that era too.
Um, she's in Brick, for instance,
Emily: Oh, yes.
Oh my goodness.
Sian: and she, she's sort of there,
and you can sort of see she's got the
thousand yard stare of the girl who winds
up with terrible cishet men, and he just
treats her like crap, I mean, you, you
were talking about the cringe level.
Um, and the scene where you see,
where you meet his new girl, and she's
curious about Mae, but at the same time,
she sort of resigns to being treated
like shit by this beautiful arsehole,
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: is so beautifully
observed, but, ooooh,
Emily: That was definitely a
moment where it was a perfect brush
stroke of storytelling with the,
just the interaction with him.
Sian: Yeah, did you like May?
I didn't actually ask you that.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I
Sian: Oh, yeah, you did.
You said you sort of liked it,
Jeremy: I, I do like me.
I've, I'd seen it once before.
This, I have some like mixed
feelings about it, but I think
overall they come out positive.
It is like, it is one of those
things that there's a lot of things
I will forgive from like, what is
in a lot of ways a student film.
Like, you know, There is some, some 101
stuff in here as far as, the finale of
this, especially I think, in the hands
of a lesser actress than Angela Bettis,
the end would have been terrible.
But, I think Angela Bettis
manages to sell a lot of it in
a way that, like, really works.
And, and, the slasher part of
it, I think, is, entirely sold
because of her performance.
Sian: she just, the way in which
she just flips her personality
on a dime in that film and the
way in which she's sort of there.
And I think one of the things
about Adam, going back to Adam, is
that he, as a character realizes
that he needed to get out.
He sees the red flags.
He's not used to being the sort of person
who has to look for red flags, though.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: And that's the thing, he's a man
who's never actually, he's the red flag.
Emily: Yeah.
And that's his
Sian: never actually had
to deal with a red flag.
And doesn't actually, has never, and
hilariously for someone, and no, actually
not, not actually, because someone,
you look at his horror film, right?
And that's a horror made by somebody
who doesn't know about mortality.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: And he's got this sort of, you
know, it's very jokey and very meta
and very sort of like people sort of
like biting each other's bits off and
for funsies and he doesn't know he's in
danger until he's too late, actually,
he's, he doesn't know he's like falling
down the pit until he's halfway down,
Jeremy: yeah,
Emily: he doesn't know anything
about he, he doesn't ha have any real
comprehension of what he is talking about.
He doesn't have any real
comprehension of psychological
horror or what psychol psychology is.
He's, you know, just interested
in edgy stuff which is.
an important point, especially
in the time that this came out.
Like, I feel like that's, you
know, because I, we have a lot of
characters, like Jeremy said, we have
a lot of characters like that now.
But at the time they were still pretty
literal, they were still predictable
in that way that they're, you know,
you had the edgy guy and he was cool.
Like, if you watch American Beauty,
you have that whole formula.
People didn't really expect
a challenge to that formula.
Sian: Yeah,
Jeremy: he would fit in, he would fit
right in with the gang and Scream.
I feel like he's just sort of
like one of the guys from Scream.
Sian: yeah, I mean, but again, I
think he's sort of a corrective to
that as well in a lot of respect
that sort of like, because that late
90s you see in the 90s was bit of
a wasteland for horror generally.
And then right at the end of the
90s, between about 1992 and 1998,
all the horror movies are either
sci fi horror movies or franchise
movies or remakes of classics.
Yeah.
Really, and there's a few indie films
sort of in the sights and everything,
but it's sequels, remakes and genre
mixes or meta movies, wall to wall,
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: know, and then around 1999
the Blair Witch Project and The
Last Broadcast both come out.
Emily: Yes.
Sian: And the Blair Witch Project wins.
in the choice between those
two because that's the one that
doesn't have a terrible ending.
And that basically brings about
a difference in the way that
people approached horror movies
around the turn of the millennium.
You have a change in, there's a sea
change in the way in which horror happens
and this is part of that sea change.
But it's also part of that
sea that I'm not sure what
the release date for May was.
Actually, because of obviously there was
this big event that happened around the
cusp of the millennium that basically
changed the way that all our genre
movies and all our action movies and
all of our movies about society happen.
And I'm not sure if May was, I mean,
I mean, I've, I think the point
that Jerry made earlier on that
this was a film that was written
in the nineties actually holds,
Emily: Mm
Sian: but I think that
it was kind of prescient.
It's before it's time.
Emily: all it takes.
Yeah.
Well, I think it was in
the middle, certainly.
It was, it was in some new territory.
Much like a, The first steps
of a newborn giraffe, that was
important and awkward and a miracle
Sian: so awkward.
Emily: So we have, yeah so where
were we in the recap, Sharon?
Jeremy: Uh,
Sian: were talking about Adam.
I think we could move on to Polly actually
Emily: yeah, we were, we
were talking about Polly.
Polly's
Jeremy: she stalks Adam quite a bit
and then eventually rubs Adam's, Adam
falls asleep at a table and she rubs
herself all over his hand and he wakes
up to This going on and she runs away
falls and then runs away somewhere.
Yeah, I had a lot of notes on Adam here.
Um,
yeah, he she's trying to give him
what she thinks or what he thinks.
what she thinks he wants, and she doesn't
get any of the social cues about what
he's actually into, doesn't understand
that, like, as he's saying he's into
weird stuff and showing her his, his
movie, that he's actually a pretty
vanilla dude who also doesn't know how
to communicate, what he wants or needs
from her and ends up ghosting him and,
or ghosting her, and then calling her a
psycho to his friends, which he overhears.
As well as her, as well as telling
it to her, his new girlfriend,
who we don't see in this scene,
we don't see her until much later.
But, so, Polly Anna Faris
Sian: works at the vet
Emily: Yes.
Sian: has been flirting
with Mae for a while.
And Polly is an interesting counterpoint
Adam because Polly fulfills some of the
stereotypes of the predatory lesbian,
Emily: Mm hmm.
Mm
Sian: but at no point is she
anything other than entirely
direct about what she wants.
Jeremy: yeah.
Sian: Her attentions for May are genuine.
You mentioned the fact that May overhears
overhears Adam talking to his friends
about how he got out of that weird
situation and he's been telling about and
they have a laugh about and that's awful.
But she also overhears Polly
talking to her other girlfriend
Emily: hmm.
Sian: and the other girlfriend says
I don't know what you see in her.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: fairly evident that Polly
has been genuinely defending May
Emily: Mm hmm.
Sian: to this girl later on when
Polly thinks that May's being
kinky with scalpels because
Polly is into weird stuff.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: As Polly is completely unfazed
by the gory stuff at the vets.
Emily: Yeah, and she's also let's may
like penetrate her finger with a scalpel
Sian: Yeah, she's into it.
She's totally into it.
And, and when, when May's there
with the scalpels at her throat,
she's like, I trust you, May.
Which, and her tragedy is basically
thinking that May actually understood,
understood her way her communication
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: because May is unable to express
the fact, honestly, that she doesn't
understand that Polly, all Polly wants is
basically a bunch of friends with benefits
for a no strings lesbian role in the hay
Emily: Yeah
Sian: to do a bit of the kinky stuff.
And Polly likes her friends.
Polly is actually And, you know,
speaking as someone who is in,
who does have a little polycule,
Emily: Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Sian: is actually one of the
very few decent representations
of polyamorous people in movies,
particularly horror movies, I think.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I think Polly is great.
She's a little, um,
Sian: not bright.
Jeremy: no, she's, she's not
bright and she's a little,
uh, she's not too deep either.
Like, uh, because Ambrosia,
her other girlfriend, sucks.
Uh, but she's, she's, uh,
uh, she's a hot mean girl.
Um, and she's, she's a terrible
person who is, is mean to Mae before
either, even ever meeting Mae.
But Polly genuinely
seems to care about Mae.
She, uh, when Mae comes over and clearly
needs somebody's shoulder to cry on, she
offers to kick Ambrosia out so that Mae
can just come talk to her and hang out.
Uh, Mae is already too scarred at that
point because I think Mae is taking
a lot of her baggage from the Adam
relationship over to Polly, and Polly
is To her credit, Polly, like you said,
never gives any indication that this
relationship is, something that's serious.
Like, but she is like, she
does clearly care for Mae.
She is emotionally available for Mae.
And, uh, we also didn't mention
that she has a really great
neck, that Mae, Mae really
Sian: Yeah.
She's got a lovely throat.
Um, she also, also there's a
wonderful telling scene where Mae
is looking at Polly's hands and
she finds a mole on Polly's hand
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: and Mae's like, why
don't you get rid of this?
And Polly says, well, my mum always
told me that it was our imperfections
that made us special, which on the
one hand is no more or less a piece
of of bullshit homespun wisdom than
if you can't find a friend make one.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: But it's also actually qualitatively
different because it is a sign that
Polly's actually kind of well adjusted as
Emily: Mm hmm.
Sian: And that's Polly's,
and that's Polly's flaw.
Adam is a basic guy who thinks he's
edgy and can't handle the edginess
and who doesn't understand His own
mortality and doesn't understand
what it is to be in danger.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: Polly is too well adjusted
and actually kind of good to
understand, for instance, that
one of her girlfriends sucks.
But also, that, also,
that May is dangerous.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: They both fail to see
the red flags, but they fail
to see them in different ways.
Jeremy: I feel like Holly doesn't really
have a good chance to find out that
Mae is dangerous before it's too late.
Because I feel like, one, I feel
like the only thing Polly really does
wrong is before she enters a romantic
relationship with Mae, she doesn't
say, Hey, by the way, I am going
to keep, you know, this is my deal.
Just so you know, and you don't get
over invested in this because Mae
is clearly somebody who has not had
romantic relationships in the past.
Um,
Sian: not with a girl
Jeremy: yeah, certainly not.
Um,
Emily: she's never had a boyfriend
before that either, so she's,
you know, completely blank
Sian: know what her sexuality is, does
Emily: Yeah.
No.
Jeremy: And I think, like, the
relationship between, or what Polly
is giving her overall is good, but
at the moment that she already feels
betrayed by Adam, she goes to Polly,
who she thinks is there for her and
sort of finds out that she is not in an
exclusive relationship at a point in time.
disastrous point in her mental
her mental life to find that out.
Um,
Sian: Yeah.
Oh
Jeremy: you know, I to Polly's credit,
she is nothing but supportive in that
moment and does say, you know, I didn't
realize you didn't know this about me.
Like, I can kick her out if
we need to talk, whatever, like
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Polly at this point
doesn't do anything wrong.
But yeah, it's I don't know.
It's a rough moment.
And it only gets rougher from there
because we didn't actually mention
that she has, uh, volunteered to adopt
Polly's cat at this point as well.
Um,
Emily: Okay.
I don't think
Sian: animal death,
Emily: Yeah, so, that's the
thing, think May volunteered.
Polly's like, you're gonna take
care of my cat for me, right?
You're gonna take, I'm, I
please, oh my gosh, please?
You like pussy cats, you know?
And so she's, she's very much
like, dropping the hanky for May
to take care of her kitty cat.
Because her landlord, because, Mei's in
there, she has no idea what's going on.
She's like, dealing with her own
shit, and Polly's like, basically
doing like, happy birthday, Mr.
President, at her, with her cat.
And she's like, and here's my cat,
bye, I'll come and visit you with
my cat, see how my cat's doing.
Um, and that was not a very
well communicated thing.
Like, I feel like Mae was
kind of pushed into that.
Um, and I, so I think that, that's
an important thing to talk about with
Polly is that Polly did basically say,
and I don't think it was very, like,
out of character for her, but that
was where she's like, here, you're
going to take care of my cat now.
This is also an excuse for me
to like, get to know you better,
Jeremy: I, I think the biggest problem
for Polly is that Polly doesn't take
anything seriously and May takes
everything seriously and literally.
Um,
Emily: the Manic Pixie Dream Girl,
but she's more of like a, she's
like the real equivalent of a
Manic Pixie Dream Girl, which is
Jeremy: if she, if Polly were bi and dated
Jeremy's sister, he would kill himself.
Like he, this would end with him murdering
himself after like he realized that he
wasn't like That she wasn't exclusive
to him and that he was actually, like,
the weepy one over the whole situation.
Like, he would not be able
to handle Polly either.
Emily: have lived with a Polly, and she
is fantastic, and I did adopt her cat, and
this Pauly is definitely the real dream
girl who is like, I'm communicating, I'm
actually really nice and innocent and I'm
just really like, I'm enjoying life a lot.
Um, I will say my Polly was
less racist than this one, but
Sian: Oh, because of the the funny
accent of the Indian doctor, the scoople.
Yeah.
I think that's, that is a thing
that you see, you're talking
about a film that's of its time.
That's the thing you couldn't
get away with after about 2005,
Emily: no, no, I, I don't know, yeah,
Jeremy: some of the, the accent
is intentionally oblique, I feel
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy: it's, yeah, in a way that actually
just feels more racist than, If you were
making fun of somebody's real accent
Sian: Yeah.
I don't think Lucky McKee would
have done that now either, honestly.
Emily: Yeah,
Sian: I think that's the thing that they
Emily: is definitely a 90s like one
of those 90s moments where they're
like, you know It's just a joke, we
all call each other the f word and
it's just like a joke I have a lot
of friends who are who have accents
Sian: yeah, yeah, no, the Scoople
thing is, I think the thing that
probably hasn't as aged, aged the
least well in the entire film,
Emily: Yeah,
Sian: cause the Breeders
music is timeless.
Um,
Emily: the breeders music was easily
my favorite thing about the film
Sian: yeah, I mean, then there's also
like this succession of like little,
you've got the two main sort of like
failed romances and then you've got a
succession of little terrible vignettes,
Emily: mm
Sian: to help in the school and
that goes appallingly wrong.
Right.
And again, if you are, if you're
upset by terrible things happening
to small children, look away now.
Um,
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah.
She volunteers at the school for
the blind and the, uh, she tries to
make friends with the little girl PD
who seems to remind her of herself
and that she is the little girl that
she sees at the park off by herself.
feeling trees, not wanting to
interact with the other blind kids.
And that's the, that's the girl that
she wants to meet and hang out with,
uh, who also makes her an ashtray
because she can smell the smoke on her.
Because she's picked up smoking from Adam.
Yeah, Adam has continued
to be awful at this point.
Like she tries to, he tries to talk to
her at the laundromat, but it's already
much too late to, it's too late now
to say sorry to quote Justin Bieber.
Because he's, yeah, she's already
overheard him, like, talking shit about
her and how she's crazy to his roommate
and new girlfriend And so, uh, that,
it's too late for that one, and then
he pretends, he pretends the washer
doesn't work so that he doesn't have
to keep talking to her and runs away
Emily: Coward man.
Jeremy: Yeah, uh, and well, so
do we want to talk about the
cat or the blind kids first?
Emily: Well, I'll, as a, as,
Sian: the cat, the brine kids
and Frank from Donnie Darko.
Emily: God, that guy, the fact that that
guy was in this movie, I was like, Oh,
cause I had not seen this movie before.
But then when, when I looked up the, uh,
the cast and I saw he was in it, I'm like,
Oh, this is a, this is going to be like a
weird nineties indie movie kind of thing.
Is it?
Um, especially since his name was blank.
Jeremy: there could easily be
a Gyllenhaal in this movie.
Sian: Yeah.
Jeremy: either one of them.
Emily: this was more of a reprisal
of his role in like, SLC Punk,
even though he was the not punk
one in that movie, but yeah, he was
Jeremy: after Adam rejects her and
she sees, she catches Polly with
another girl, Polly's not hiding
this, but she, you know, goes to Polly
for sympathy and Polly is sleeping
with somebody else at the time.
She then tries to get
comfort from the cat.
The cat rejects her.
And so she helps the cat with the ashtray
that her little blind girlfriend has
made seemingly just out of frustration,
throws it and murders the cat with the
ashtray, and then sews the cat back up
and puts him in the freezer well, proceeds
to, proceeds to hold on to the cat for
a while and snuggle with the cat in bed,
lysol ing it so it doesn't smell bad and
then eventually leaves it in the freezer.
She tries to connect with the
blind kids by bringing in her doll.
But blind kids are not interested
in a doll that you can only look at
because that does nothing for them.
So they want to touch the doll and
she is hyperventilating about this
and PD is basically leads a revolution
to get the doll out of the box.
And at which point the whole glass case
falls and shatters all over the floor
and then suddenly there are blankets
crawling around the floor trying to find
the doll in broken glass everywhere.
Sian: Oh.
Jeremy: This scene is a lot.
Um, and the doll is
Emily: watch this movie with
Jeremy: No.
Emily: Okay.
Jeremy: No.
Yeah, the doll is broken and Mae
is pretty broken at this point.
At which point she does, then meet but
she does then cut up her own face with
the glass seemingly unintentionally.
She's trying to, uh, hold the doll
and this is having a rough time.
She meets a nice young
punk on the street who
Sian: was very sweet.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: kid with a little Frankenstein
tattoo on his, uh, shoulder who, uh,
goes back to, Who, uh, engages me
in conversation and is not scared
away immediately by his, uh, by her
saying all these people have pretty
parts, but there's no pretty holes.
Emily: Which I misunderstood the
first time I heard that because
I was like, I'm sorry, ma'am.
Oh, with a W.
Jeremy: yes.
And he invites her to go get some jujubes.
This, this kid fucking loves jujubes.
Sian: And then, but then he goes, I'm
just gonna go to the freezer to get
some ice cubes to rub on my nipples.
Emily: he
Jeremy: He is so fucking ready to go
Emily: he is so ready to go, he is
fully doing, like, I swear to God, his
dialogue is 100 percent the dialogue from
the bully in The Simpsons that, like,
is trying to flirt with the girl that
Bart has a crush on, I don't, I can't
remember the name of that character,
but, no, it's not Nelson, the other one,
Sian: Oh, and isn't it like a
really famous actor as well,
doing the voice of the girl?
Emily: Yes, there's a very famous actor
doing the, the girl's voice and the
guy is like, Oh, my shirt's chafing me.
Now my pants are chafing me.
Like it was that exact
Sian: It really was, yeah.
Emily: I think it was
intentional, which is great.
I, which,
Sian: Unfortunately, when he
was getting the ice cubes,
Emily: yeah he discovered.
The cat in the freezer which,
you know, to his credit, Jimbo.
Yes, it's very important that we get
this information for, uh, for more
on that, check out Doman's Dawn, the
One Piece Simpsons podcast, anyway.
Jeremy: yeah, so he finds the dead
cat in the freezer, uh, calls her a
freak which is not a great move at this
Sian: not end well.
Emily: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Jeremy: and then he has a bad case
of scissors to the forehead but
she's gonna keep that cool tattoo
And she decides that she needs more
parts, So she goes on a bit of a,
a hunt for these parts she's on a
scavenger hunt and she has to go she
stops by Adam's house he's trying,
he starts off being a jerk and then,
Sian: Oh, also it's Halloween.
Emily: yeah, it is Halloween and she's
dressed up as a person in cool leather
with a, with a case full of gold.
Sian: Cold ones.
She's dressed up as Susie.
Jeremy: yeah, he's dressed up as the doll,
Emily: right, sorry,
Sian: with the same patchwork
dress as the doll hat.
Emily: that's right.
I didn't even, I didn't quite notice
that because I never really got
a good look at the doll's outfit
Sian: Yeah, and so she has like
the pale makeup as well, like the
doll's pale face and everything.
She's dressed up as Susie, and she
adopts the personality of Susie, who
is vengeful, jealous, and violent,
Jeremy: and cold hearted.
She's just,
Sian: collapse.
She is Susie now.
Jeremy: and the way that she, like,
Angela Bettis deserves all the credit
in the world for this switch because she
will deliver everything from here to the
climax is just like a character that Mae
has created in this story of just like,
she is the person who can do what she has
decided she needs to do at this point.
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: And
Sian: Tragically, she's
actually socially adept.
Emily: yeah, a lot more
socially adept than, because
she, she is following a script.
Sian: Yeah.
Emily: what she needs to, um, and
she just didn't have a script before,
but now that she's a character
following a script, she's a lot more
Jeremy: and we mentioned this, uh,
this scene with Adam's new girlfriend,
Sian: Oh, God, yeah.
Jeremy: which is fantastically done in
that it is so incredibly uncomfortable
where she like first decides she's going
to make a big show of hanging all over
Adam in front of Mae, and then Adam is
shitty to her as well, and she's sort of
like, oh, whatever about it just sort of
willing to take the abuse at this point.
Emily: hmm.
Jeremy: But May is really
just there for parts.
Adam, she's there to get Adam's
hands and, uh, notices that the new
girl has some nice ears as well.
Um, so decides to take her
ears merges them both handily.
she, uh,
Sian: See what you did there.
Jeremy: uh, she then goes
on to, uh, Polly's place.
where she gets to really meet
Ambrosia for the first time.
Well, I guess she meets Ambrosia
briefly before she, uh, has noted that
Ambrosia has really nice legs, um,
Emily: all she saw of
her before were her gams.
Sian: gams.
Jeremy: which Ambrosia is like,
she's like, she then tells Ambrosia
she has nice legs and Ambrosia
says, I thought they were gams.
And, uh, she says something like, uh,
wheels, getaway sticks, gams, whatever.
Like, you know, you can get the idea.
She's, uh, Ambrosia is.
Shitty arose is shitty
and quickly murdered.
She has to go ahead and, uh,
Sian: of bottoming, like, kind of
Emily: I love that in this scene,
she's, she's wearing the same color.
She's like color coded with the milk and
then the milk spills on the floor and
there's red and when it's also the like,
Sian: a great moment.
But also the way in which
Ambrosia's vanity is appealed to,
she makes Ambrosia do a twirl.
Emily: Oh, yeah.
Sian: Yeah, and like, oh,
it's a hell of a scene.
Jeremy: Yeah.
And the, the whole bit with her Polly
allowing her to hold the scalpel in
her neck, thinking this is just sort of
like a fun, kinky thing they're doing
and telling her that she trusts her
and then her slitting polly's throat,
Emily: yeah.
And I feel like that moment is a very
unusually understanding and accurate
depiction of how kink works, there's this,
the important part of, kink that is that
like, okay, we're going to do this thing.
Okay.
I trust you.
It is tragic that is also
taken advantage of by May.
and, the profundity of that
particular moment kind of gets lost
for me a little bit, but I do feel
like it, you gotta respect that.
depiction, because usually kinkiness in
movies is just all about exploitation.
Um,
Sian: I mean, you're right.
I hadn't even like considered that,
but yeah, you're absolutely right.
And I think it's one of the things I
actually like about May is that it is
better at representing most things apart
from like that one dodgy bit of racism.
It's better at representing most
things, like it's better at representing
neurodiversity and even the generational
level of it is better at representing.
Polyamory done imperfectly,
but still better than most
movies where this is expressed.
It's better at representing someone
learning about queerness, it's better
at representing, like, basic edgelords.
It's just, sort of, it's just
a film that is well observed.
And I think that if there are problems
with it The problems are that some
of those things maybe don't all need
to be observed at the same time.
Emily: Totally.
I, I, yes, absolutely.
And, yeah, I think that that was my
biggest issue with the movie is that there
was a lot of these little pieces that were
nice, but they were like, kind of hard to,
Jeremy: So there were a lot
of pretty pieces and no pretty
hole is what you're saying.
Emily: um.
Yeah.
Jeremy: somehow the movie just got better.
I don't know.
Uh,
Emily: Whoa.
Jeremy: but I do want to acknowledge also
Anna Faris is acting in her last scene.
Here is fantastic.
Like.
As we said, she's the, she's the
best thing in a lot of not good
things, uh, and in this she is
like, her Mae, or her Angela Bettis
and Jeremy Sisto are all sort of
Sian: They're all great in this
Jeremy: doing good, doing good stuff,
and, but her like, her getting her throat
slit and then having this like, silent,
shocked death that is, is not played for
laughs, but like, is genuinely tragic.
Ambrosia is very much played for laughs,
but Ambrosia deserved to die, so,
Sian: Yeah, yeah.
It's like, bro, she is awful.
But yeah, I, and, and, you know,
and after Polly dies, because Polly
is the last one to go, isn't she?
After that, so she's
killed five people now.
And after that point, the film basically,
it's like basically the death of Polly
is the death of any comedy in the film.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: The film is deadly
serious after that point.
Because then Mae assembles the parts.
Emily: And magic.
Jeremy: yeah, but she, well, she
realizes that the doll is still not
able to see her because the doll
doesn't have any eyes, um, she has
to get the doll an eye, and she knows
Sian: out of the lazy eye.
Jeremy: Yeah, she pulls out, she
jabs the scissors, I believe,
into her face and cuts out her
own eye and puts it on the doll.
It's rough, uh, but her shouting,
Emily: about scissoring.
Jeremy: her, her, her shouting
of, of see me, all I want is see
me is like, it's heartbreaking.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: The ambiguity of that final
moment, You Like, is the film, the
only indications of the supernatural
in the film up to this point have been
occasional shots of the doll's case
cracking when May is not in the room.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: And now the Frankenstein creature
assembled from corpses comes to life
and strokes May and comforts her.
Jeremy: happy ending.
Sian: the movie.
But.
Emily: Oh, they got together.
Sian: But, again, I'm thinking
of actually, all right films with
neurodiverse serial killers or
even TV shows, there was a thing
on Amazon last year called Swarm,
Emily: Mm hmm.
Sian: I don't know if you saw that,
Emily: I didn't but I've heard of it.
Sian: yeah, it's a, but Swarm is basically
about a Beyonce stan who kills people
who don't like her favorite pop star
and, except, obviously she can't call
the pop star Beyonce in the show because,
what Beyonce's like, but, like, at the
very final episode, having killed the
one person, or big spoilers, obviously
having killed the one person who's going
to give her a chance at actually a decent
relationship, the hero sneaks into a
gig of the pop star, and what happens
is she goes onto the stage, the pop star
invites her to sing, she sings, everybody
cheers, and the pop star takes her home.
in the limousine cuddling her, and
it's like this beautiful triumphant
happy ending, which is not in any
possible way how it's really happened.
Emily: Right.
Sian: This is literally all in the
psyche of that psychopath, that
psychopathic neurodiverse person.
Particularly since the pop star turns
out to be played by the same actor as the
character's beloved sister who died in
the first episode by taking her own life.
Emily: Right.
Sian: so, the parallel I see there
is that obviously it doesn't matter
whether it's quote really happening
or not because it's a movie, of
course it's not really happening.
like, Is it really happening
in the world of the movie?
Again, it doesn't matter
because it's a movie.
The point is that this is the
best that Mae's gonna get.
And that's one of those things
that's only a happy ending if
you choose to read it as such.
Emily: Right.
Yeah.
I mean, it's she's fully
broken at this point.
So, the narrator,
Jeremy: And she's just cut her
own eye out, so she's definitely
bleeding to death on the floor there.
Like,
Sian: yeah, the world is, the world
is, yeah, she's mad, basically.
She's mad and dying.
And this.
is her final retreat into a fugue from
which she's never going to come out.
And that fugue is I think it's
what a, uh, what a film theorist
would call the end of the movie.
Jeremy: yeah.
Sian: I mean, I mean, yeah, I
mean, it's fugues, fugues that
coincide with the end of the movie.
It's like that.
I keep thinking, obviously I'm going to
talk about my favourite movie, because
I always talk about my favourite movie,
that bit in Possession, where Isabella
Gianni goes almost, almost, almost.
And it's like on the one hand, you
know, and she's obviously under a
frantically being humped by an octopus
monster from outer space, but also or
from inner space or from her psyche.
So there's kind of that she's
almost there, but also it is
almost the end of the movie.
And I think often people
miss that with movies.
I think.
People try to explain this stuff
they say, having written literally
millions of words explaining movies.
Um, but really, I'm quite strongly of
the opinion that actually, this isn't a
happy ending because it's essentially,
however you read it, horrible.
Emily: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Sian: Yeah,
Emily: I mean that the happy of, the happy
ending in this case is, is definitely a
very tongue in cheek, kind of like it's
supposed to, you know, it's the happiest
possible ending for her, certainly.
Um,
Sian: gonna get.
Emily: yeah, because like
nothing, everything that happens
after that doesn't matter.
at this point because this is as
low, you know, like this is the
end of that particular story.
And I thought it was good
as an ending for sure.
Like, and I'm always a fan of
magical realism and like unreliable
narrators and all this kind of stuff.
And this is, this is less magical.
I mean, it's kind of magical realism, but
it's, it's it's unique in the fact that
the movie wasn't magical before this.
But except for the doll and things like
Sian: Yeah, I think it's one of the
rare occasions where you have a visual
simile, rather than a visual metaphor.
Emily: yeah,
Sian: In that the film is showing you
that this is what it's like, rather than
simply sort of like showing you a thing.
Emily: yeah,
Sian: It's kind of, that's, it's very
difficult for me to sort of explain that,
because I'm not good with words right now,
because it's 10 o'clock on Sunday evening.
But yeah um, it's not quite a visual
metaphor, but it's sort of one
step away from a visual metaphor.
So I want to call it a visual
simile because that sounds
very sort of cute, mainly.
Emily: but I, yeah, I, I'm picking
up what you're laying down.
Absolutely.
Sian: That's the end of the film.
And obviously this is the sort of
thing that Jeremy should be asking,
but do you feel less hostile to the
movie now that we've talked it through?
Emily: yes, I do.
And I also have to point out that while
I was watching this movie, like, there
was a news feed that was going on that
was very distracting and also very, like,
it's embittering for me just in terms of
like, all of the drama happening around.
But I, you know, there's certainly, I
know this is one of the reasons I love
talking about these movies is that even
when I see a movie, like, especially
if someone's bringing their darling
to me and I'm like, Ooh, I don't know.
Um, you know, as somebody who is a
big fan of things like devil man.
I'm absolutely like, absolutely
understanding of like, yeah, there's,
you can love it is as Polly said, as
Polly's mom said, is there imperfections
that that, that make a special, you
know, and I think that this movie had a
lot of, well, there's a couple of things
about it that, that are sort of the, the
broad strokes of what didn't work for me
is the fact that a lot of these little
gems of character portrayal and things
like that were kind of, they, they were.
Kind of overlooked, I think, by
the focus of the film, which in
another movie would be clever.
You know, in terms of like
representation and things like that.
I think that this movie did suffer
from the lack of vocabulary about the
particular things it was talking about.
Like, polyamory, like, uh, you know,
queerness, the spectrum, et cetera.
Sian: And I mean, it's that because it
was made in 2002 and written in the 90s.
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think
it's a double whammy in that case, in
that it's both 2002 and it's, within sort
of that mumblecore subgenre where it's
like we don't actually say what we mean.
We just sort of like mumblecore people
talk so much and they never actually say
what anything is about or come out and say
anything that's important to the movie.
Um, and that's sort of like a feature
of those films rather than a bug.
It's what they mean to do.
Um, But it is kind of
obnoxious in a horror movie.
Emily: This is
Sian: I mean, I don't know.
Is it obnoxious in a horror movie?
Like,
Emily: depends on the horror movie.
I mean, it depends because like also the
Jeremy: is kind of obnoxious in a
horror movie that is juggling as many
things as this one wants to talk about.
That, like, there are so many things
sort of going on in actor portrayals
and in some of the writing that,
like, or two of those being a little
more direct and a little less like,
did you do this intentionally?
We're not sure if you
did it intentionally.
Would have been nice, I guess.
I
Sian: again, like the idea of like
a neurodiverse representation of a
character is like, I, I absolutely
will, will die on the hill That May,
as a film, is a great representation
of a neurodiverse character.
I think it's sympathetic, I think it's
straightforward, I think it's realistic.
And relatable, to me.
I mean, I've obviously never
dismembered anybody and tried to
build the corpse into a friend.
But, honest.
I
Emily: all have OC's though.
Sian: Yep, we've all got OCs.
Jeremy: We just, we just do
those things figuratively.
Emily: Yeah,
Sian: Yeah, well, I mean, I've, I
may have written some of that stuff,
actually, in some of the fiction for
various horror games in the early 2000s.
Um, but yeah I think that I may, when I
wrote about May, I wrote about it back
to back with the film Excision, which I
know you've done in a previous episode.
Jeremy: We haven't actually.
We haven't done excision yet.
Sian: Oh, I thought you had.
Oh, okay.
But Excision, I think, is a
film that is of a piece with
May and made 10 years later.
Emily: hmm.
Sian: which have you seen it?
Emily: Mm hmm.
Sian: Oh, okay.
Jeremy: heard quite a bit about it,
Emily: I've heard about it, but
Sian: yeah, no, I would again, I
found it very relatable person.
I think it's got a neurodiverse, it's
got a star, Anonym McCord, and also
John Waters as a pastor, isn't it?
Tracy Lords as an uptight Christian
mother really another one of those
films with a really interesting cast.
And also someone who does some truly
terrible, gory things involving surgical
implements because she doesn't understand.
And it's interesting, it's a
film made with a 2011 vocabulary,
Emily: Mm hmm.
Sian: which is different
to a 2002 vocabulary,
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Absolutely.
Sian: but still not the
vocabulary that we have here.
And I have no doubt that in 2036, We're
going to be looking at films that feature
neurodiverse people and going, Gah,
look, they really didn't know what they
were talking about back then, did they?
Emily: totally And well, and I I think
one of the things about this movie as
well is that some of the stuff felt rote
To me as like in terms of the, neuro
divergence and quirkiness and queerness
and it I had a distinct impression that
there was a push to make these characters
a lot more progressive in the way for
the time, something that would be a lot
more normal contemporarily, but then,
just because of the lack of, the lack
of vocabulary and then, you know, maybe
some pushback either from editing or, you
know, other influence on the film in its
process I felt like, it was one of those
messages that was just muddled by that.
And in some cases it felt like the
message was watered down by some.
usage of those stereotypes, like the
the fact that Paul, the doctor, but also
like Polly's kind of happy birthday, Mr.
President, like over flirting dance, like
felt, you know, a little bit hammy to me.
And so I guess it was just like a,
a lack of commitment into in tone,
Sian: See, that's why, that's
why I think it's accidental.
Emily: yeah.
Yeah.
Sian: I don't think
that it was intentional.
I think these things are just like the
the, the products of someone who's quite
good at observing human interaction.
Yeah.
Because if you look at Lucky McKee,
I haven't seen a Lucky McKee thing
that I haven't thought was great,
but I've seen a Lucky McKee thing
that I never want to see again.
And that, that, that is The Woman, right?
And if you The Woman, which is a, a horror
film, which is entirely centered upon
domestic abuse and is unbelievably nasty.
It is, it's like, if you, it is a
film about Domestic abuse where a,
a tyrannical man basically grooms
his son into becoming a tyrant,
tyrannical monster just like him.
And all the women in his life are
treated in horrendous, horrendous ways.
and I thought it, I think the
woman is actually objectively
a fantastically observed film.
It is an honest film.
I think it's a true film in as much as
any film about a guy who finds a member
of a lost tribe of cannibals in the woods
and then decides to chain her up in the,
in his basement to civilise her only
his horrific domestic abuser could be.
those truths needed to be
expressed in those words.
ways by that filmmaker.
Emily: that that really hits.
The sweet spot of how I felt
about certain things in this
movie and how things were handled.
And I think my biggest, like, the,
I've talked about the broad strokes.
The detail that I have the biggest
quibble with is that we don't
need to talk about a lazy eye.
We don't need that to be involved here.
Like, I felt like the lazy eye thing
was a little bit more like, it was
distracting from the fact that she
just was raised by a difficult person.
Sian: I think the fact that the lazy,
I mean, again, that's something of its
time, but also again, one of the things
I have difficulty with is the way in
which when the lazy eye is fixed, it's
sort of, it's sort of a Miss Jones,
you're beautiful kind of moment,
Emily: yeah, yeah.
And that's another thing that
like, kind of took me out of it
was the fact that the lazy eye was
just like, not really an issue.
And then it was like, magically
fixed with corrective lenses.
And I don't know about how, like,
I don't know how that works.
I don't know if it does.
You know,
Jeremy: is, it is possible that, like,
that is a thing that exists in the
real world, just in that basically
they just make one of the lenses
stronger than the other to help.
But it still only works when
you're using the lenses, which
is why she needs to get contacts.
Um, yeah, it, it makes the muscles
stronger because it's, lazy eye is
a problem with the muscles around
the eye rather than the eye itself.
Um, yeah I feel like just to like, put
it out there, I feel like I tend to
forgive some things with Lucky Mckee,
just because I feel a certain amount of
like, kinship and that, you know, this is
a, a creator who you know, is obviously
a male presenting, at least, creator,
who writes a lot of stories about women,
and seems invested in doing it correctly,
um, and, and getting things right.
But also like, there's going to be
things that don't age well, and there's
going to be things that don't feel
quite right looking back on them.
And you know, I think it's, it's hard to
judge, uh, a movie that was doing a lot
for 2002, um, by 2022 standards and not
at least see like, I mean, you're going
to see some cracks, but you can also
see just how much was really put into at
least the attempt to get this stuff right.
Sian: I'm reminded actually of something
that happened to me, um, recently.
So in 2003.
2004, I supplied a fair amount of
content to a third party supplement for
the role playing game Call of Cthulu.
Emily: Mm-Hmm?
Sian: it was shelved
Until a few months ago where it was
published, including a whole bunch of
queer content and some trans content
written in 2003 by someone who was deep
in the egg and a bunch of other stuff.
That,
and to be fair.
They sent us the proofs before it
happened, and I was like, Okay, here
are some paragraphs I'm rewriting!
But at the same time, I did finally
get, and it's a lovely package and
everything, and it is a role playing
game supplement that was trying to be
progressive and interesting in 2003.
Emily: Mm-Hmm.
Sian: Published, been on the shelf for
20 years, and it came out And I've got
it, I've got three copies of it, and I'm
looking at it, and I'm still I look at
my writing that I wrote 20 years ago,
and I wouldn't write most of that now.
I couldn't write that now.
That's not me, that's not who I am.
Some of the stuff that I wrote for
White Wolf back in the day, some
of the fiction and things for that.
I look at that now, and I mean,
to be honest, anybody who's ever
written for White Wolf 20 years
ago is gonna say that, honestly.
Emily: As someone who has seen, what has
read the white wolf material, like, or,
well, mostly from the nineties though.
Like so a lot of the white
Sian: Because that's when
people were reading it.
There's sort of a, there's actually
an interesting there's an interesting
movie fact about that whole thing.
So, in 2003, Underworld came out?
Emily: Yes.
Sian: And White Wolf sued,
Emily: yes.
We did cover that one.
Sian: Sony, and obviously this was around
the time that they brought out the new
they shelved the old World of Darkness
and brought out what was then called
the new World of Darkness, and I think
20 years down the line it's now called
the Chronicles of Darkness, although I
haven't written for it for like 14 years,
but I was there on like, but I was there
like on the on the ground level for that.
I was, I wrote some of the very
first supplements for, like, for the
first five years or so, for that,
for most of the games that they did.
And no one who worked for White Wolf was
allowed to tell even the other people
who wrote for White Wolf how much Sony
gave them, or what they had to do, right?
But I think it's fair to say that
White Wolf continued for as long as
it did until it got bought out by a
succession of video game publishers.
guys.
Um, it was brought out by the
people who made EVE Online first,
Emily: Right.
Yes.
Sian: and then later on, of course,
it was brought out by Paradox.
But yeah, I get the distinct impression
that one of the reasons that, that,
The New World of Darkness happened,
and this is only my conspiracy
theory, as someone who wrote those
games but was never told this.
No one ever told me this.
This is something that I came
up with off the top of my head.
I reckoned that the New World of Darkness
happened because they needed to like,
make a new game because Sony wanted
to keep on making underworld movies.
And that's my theory.
which has no basis whatsoever since
I never had that conversation.
It's a theory that's come to me in
the last couple of years long after
I stopped writing for them, right?
So there's no fact involved in that.
This is just the vibe that I
personally got, but I'm autistic,
so I'm not good at vibes.
So take that with a pinch of salt,
but it makes sense to me in my head.
But again, That's completely outproposed
to nothing, obviously, but obviously,
having written a lot of horror books
for a horror role playing game in
that period and seeing those things
and seeing what the conversation was
around then, things that we liked
back in, like, in 2004, one of my
favorite TV shows was The Mighty Boosh.
Emily: Oh, yeah.
Yeah,
Sian: That's a show
that has not aged well.
Emily: no
Sian: Some bits of it are still funny,
but some bits of it are like, guys,
Noel, Julian, what were you doing?
What were you thinking?
Right.
But we didn't notice back then.
Emily: and that's it that's like with
spaced I remember we talked about
Sian: not an excuse, but you know, yeah,
Emily: but there was the episode of
Space which was, does not age well
which eventually, like, fortunately,
they abandoned the parts that didn't
age well when they made Shaun of
the Dead, but like, yeah yeah, and
Jeremy: mean, even Shaun of the Dead has
Nick Frost yelling the N word as he's
encouraging everybody to get in the car.
It's still like, Oh guys, one more,
one more take, one more rewrite.
You would have had it.
Perfect.
Sian: yeah.
But again, you could, I think we are so,
I think it's a combination of those of us
who are either, for my sake, I'm a younger
Gen Xer rather than an elder millennial,
but I'm sort of on the cusp there.
But those of us of, who are between
the ages of say 32 and 49, say.
Emily: Yeah,
Sian: I, one, I don't think we realize
how long ago the year 2002 was, or the
year 2004 was, it was in our adult lives.
And, well, it was in my adult life, and
then, we don't realize how long ago that
was, but I remember growing up in the 80s.
and the 60s being like an eon ago, but
most of the 60s was closer to my time
growing up than the 2002 is to now.
Emily: right?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Sian: So, and that's a paradox.
It's like times that were closer seemed
farther away, but this was a long time.
We are a generation away
from a film like May.
We are an entire generation away.
Like if any of the people making May had
a baby that was born when May was made,
they could now possibly be grandparents.
Like, you know, it's like Angela Barrett
is now old enough to be a grandparent.
She may not be a grandparent, but
she's old enough to be, right?
Because I'm old enough
to be a grandparent.
And that is something that we have to
approach when we look at these things.
And that's Not to excuse them,
Emily: right.
Sian: Could, like, the difference
between Edgar Allan Poe and H.
P.
Lovecraft, for instance.
It's like, Edgar Allan Poe was more a
man of his time than Lovecraft was, and
also Edgar Allan Poe never actually wrote
anything about, marrying a 14 year old.
Um, So, um, You can actually
read Edgar Allan Poe's stuff.
Lovecraft, meanwhile, wrote racist
stories and was racist for it.
This is a man who Robert E.
Howard literally wrote a letter to,
going seriously, Howard, Howard,
Howard, Howard, could you calm down?
This is a man who wrote to Robert E.
Howard saying, yeah, I'm not
sure about that Hitler guy's
methods, but my heart's with him.
Like, wrote that, wrote a sentence
to that effect in the letter, right?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Sian: And it's useful to look
at a thing that's of it's time
and pretty good for it's time.
Emily: Yeah.
And well,
Sian: it to something that's
of it's time and terrible.
Emily: I mean, it's a really good
point too, because I re rewatched Twin
Peaks recently, and that show also
did a really great job of accidentally
representing people on the spectrum.
Um, and that was, you know, at the
time it was just quirky and like,
but nobody really understood it that
were watching it because they didn't
quite get that being the point.
And I watch it again with this new
understanding of neurodivergence and
realizing like this is people being more
normal than people in film all the time,
because these are people that are dealing
with things in a neurodivergent way.
And I feel like bringing that back to May,
like, I think that, you know, there was
some of that kind of affected how I saw
May, but I think in honestly with May.
the biggest point that could have
affected it either way was either.
I think there was a in
that genre that sort of.
Manic pixieness that comes up with things
like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless
Mind and, and, uh, and Dream with the
Fishes and SLC Punk and all the kind
of these, these kind of indie movies
that have this sort of whimsy to them.
And this movie was not whimsical.
And and I felt like the mumblecore
part was not whimsical enough for it
to be in that sort of humor whimsy.
It was too, you know, the horror.
And I don't know if that's, I
honestly like looking at it now, I
don't know if that's a bad thing.
I think it's, you know, it put me
off in terms of the vibes of the
movie, because I was just like,
what are you trying to tell me?
What are you trying to tell me movie?
This is, and again, it's, it's
like, I didn't enjoy ghost world.
Either.
Like, I thought Ghost World was
just kind of sad and terrible.
Sian: It's a bleak movie,
Emily: yeah, yeah, and it's,
Sian: Dan Clowes.
Isn't it Dan Clowes, the comic book?
Emily: yeah, yeah,
Sian: book.
Emily: yeah, and his stuff is
usually pretty bleak and, you know,
I appreciate him as an artist.
I don't read a lot of his comics
because I'm like, okay, yeah, okay and
the, I think with this movie that sort
of, I don't think it needed humor.
But I still wasn't trying, I wasn't
really following its gait very well,
and it had a lot of things in it, like,
I think it, because of the cool stuff
was so subtle the horrible stuff really
stuck out a lot more, and then, you know,
and also the, like, certain missteps,
like the the casual racism and, the
various, like, I wasn't quite sure where
they were going with Mae's character.
Because, and then I think that
was also because at the time, I'm
like, did they really understand
what they're saying here?
But I think that's what you're saying
this whole time, is that even if
they don't, they still succeeded
in a particular representation.
Um,
Jeremy: I think ultimately the only
things that didn't work for me as
far as that pacing well, the casual
racism we could have done without.
I mean, literally you could take
out five lines and it's gone.
But the blind kids becoming so
important so late in the plot.
I just, we could have paced
that in better, I feel like.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: it's just sort of like,
you're getting to a point where
like, you can already feel the
climax coming at that point.
And then it's like, oh, and we had
this other thing we wanted to do where,
Sian: they do that twice, as well,
because they do that, they did that
with Frank from Donnie Darko as
well, whose name I can't remember.
You know, again, that's
just like a little vignette
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: that
Emily: Duvet?
I
Sian: James
Jeremy: him, it makes sense because he's,
he gets to be a, he gets to be a guy that
she doesn't know that she kills first,
you know, she just kills him in a panic.
And then it's like, Oh, hey, I can.
I can do this actually.
He's got a nice rest of the body.
Yeah, I think, I feel like usually we
go through and hit some of our like
talking points as far as like, all the
progressive topics here, but I feel
like we've talked quite a bit about,
Emily: Oh yeah.
Jeremy: the queerness and I feel like
the movie does, it, it does a pretty good
job, especially for 2002 of projecting
queerness in this particular story.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: This is the film that gave
me my, my illegal Lego theory which
is like, I, I love, I'm loving
the double take there, by the
Emily: Yeah, I'm, I am
Sian: saw the genuine double take
there the illegal Lego theory.
There's something I came
up with because of May.
Okay, so around the time that I
was writing about May the first
time, I discovered that there
is such a thing as illegal Lego.
That is, there are illegal ways, and the
Lego company called this illegal, because,
of course, they have this thing called
Lego Ideas where they publicly solicit
invitations for kit, new kits to be made.
There are ways to connect LEGO
bricks that you're not allowed to do.
They are illegal.
And among them, for instance, is,
you know, you know when you're
like, I've got a brick, and you
can put a plate in sideways, and
it just sits in between the studs.
Emily: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
When it's not actually
Sian: supposed to do that, but you
can do it because, and it fits quite
snugly because it's a LEGO, but
Emily: Is it punishable by law?
Sian: No, no, but it is punishable
by like, not having your,
Blueprint being included on the
Lego Ideas website, you know,
Emily: okay.
Sian: it if it includes a Lego.
And there's a couple of other things
like putting studs in the sort of
holes in the bottom of a brick and then
connecting two bricks back to back.
Emily: Mm hmm,
Sian: to do that.
Emily: mm hmm,
Sian: Now, I think the way in which
a lot of Cishet, naturally Cishet
people, look at bodies is the way in
which the Lego company looks at Lego.
in that we, I, okay, as a neurodiverse
person who is absolutely a hundred
percent pansexual, it never occurred
to me growing up as an AMAB that
someone might, that, that boys generally
didn't look at the occasional boy
and think, yeah, I could do that.
You know, that, it never occurred to
me that people might actually find
the idea of certain intersections
with body parts and other body
parts is actually sick in the mouth,
disgusting, but they do because okay.
I'm going to let you into like the
biggest, most shocking secret that
I ever learned in my life, right?
Emily: please.
Sian: Straight people exist.
Jeremy: yeah.
Emily: Oh, yeah,
Sian: And it was only actually realizing
that's how I realized I was queer because
actually realizing that straight people
weren't just pretending or performing it.
Emily: yeah,
Sian: people who don't have a
gender, they just think they are one.
They're Do you know what I'm saying?
Emily: I absolutely do, because it's,
it is, that form of thinking is the
subject of much confusion to me.
Because I'm like there's so many,
there's so many things there.
So, and, for me, it's less, it's
been less about like body parts and
more about intimate connection, you
know, being, being an ace person.
Yeah.
And so like, instead of cause I don't
really have any curiosity about that so
much as like, who am I going to, or how
am I going to connect with these people?
Is this connection valid?
Is this connection valuable to somebody?
And, you know, is this partnership,
like, there's been a lot of doubt for
myself about whether a partnership
is valid because it doesn't involve,
sex or whatever, or body parts.
interacting or whatever.
you know, and I still feel attraction,
but it's purely aesthetic, you know,
like it's it's purely like fascination.
And the limitations.
of that are so confusing.
Sian: Yeah.
Emily: And the fact that like, this
intimacy can be only be defined as, you
know, an exchange of fluids, like is
so, I mean, it just feels so literal
to me in a world where there's so
many people who are using a form of
spiritual, I don't know, I say but I
mean, like, spiritual ideals to define.
something, that and try to restrict
other people's definition of that.
Sian: Yeah, like Exactly, like the
concept, for instance, like the
concept a lot of cishet people I
know have of emotional affairs and
how they're a bad thing, and it's
like, I call that having friends.
And that sort of thing is a thing, and,
and obviously it's like, no, you put the
Lego block on top of the other Lego block.
And that, you know, doesn't just, and
I don't just mean that physically,
it bodies, I think emotional as well.
The idea that you only put the Lego
together in certain ways, the idea that
you might put the plate in between the
things or the studs underneath the block
is something they can't, they're like,
no, you're not supposed to do that.
Emily: Yeah.
And the funny thing about that is
that neuro, like, is that being
neurotypical or is it being like, so
is it trying to stay a course, you
know, like what, you know, is that
something that is a coping mechanism?
Sian: in the words of
Jacques Derrida, fuck knows.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: just, one of the things I like
about the queerness of May is that it
gets across that confusion because you
have a character who doesn't know how to
put the bricks together and wants to put
the bricks together in her own way and
she's surrounded by people who want to
put those bricks together emotionally and
physically or whatever in a different way.
Emily: And the, especially with Adam,
he can't even consider, as edgy as he
is, he can't even consider that the
bricks would fit in any other way.
Sian: Yeah.
Emily: Like, he has no idea, so
when she tries doing something a
different way, he is terrified.
He's, you know, that never
occurs to him to be like, Oh,
no, no, no, no, like, hold on.
Okay, well, let's talk about this, you
know, let's communicate, which is the
foundation of any connection, anyway,
Jeremy: Yeah, and I, I don't
think it's a coincidence.
And as much as we talk about, we
don't know whether Lucky McKee did
things intentionally and stuff.
I don't think it's coincidence that
Adam's horror movie is about being
partially consumed by a woman.
Like, that, you know, he is, he is, that
the idea of people caring for each other
by meaning that they eat each other, that
they take pieces out of the other one.
That's a very like individualistic
straight man take on what,
relationships are like, Oh, isn't
it horrifying that you might lose
part of yourself to this person?
You know, and it's, it's, fascinating.
I think this has been a really
interesting conversation.
Um,
Emily: And I'm really glad we were able
to touch on this too, because like,
it's, I watched the movie and kind
of feeling salty, and now I feel like
I've I've gone places because of this
movie that I normally wouldn't discuss.
Especially about this movie.
Jeremy: yeah.
And I mean, I'm,
Sian: it's, I think it's really nice
to talk about a movie with someone
who doesn't like a movie, but is
still willing to engage with it.
I think that's a really challenging
thing because it helps me to sort
of reconsider whether this movie is
as great as I think it is, because I
have it in, I have a notional sort of
idea that one day I might have to put
together a top 10 horror movies and
this would be in it, probably, but.
Now, I have to think is, for example, that
scene near the start, the scoop all seen
kind of part of, a problem is that deal
breaker other, but you know, other things
about it, which I hadn't considered, which
you have highlighted for me means that
I can look at that film with fresh eyes.
And that's, this is the sort of
conversation that I kind of like.
I kind of long for, because generally
when people either like a movie
that I don't like or something
it's just a deadlock or anything,
Emily: well, and as somebody who's
a big fan of a lot of different
kinds of in nineties anime
or like nineties movies, even
like, natural born killers
used to be my favorite film.
And, and, uh, that's when
I was 14 and now I'm like,
Sian: favorite for 14 year
Emily: yeah, for 14, and, I, like, and
there's a lot of things that, yeah, and
there's a lot of things, yeah, Fight
Club, and I also loved Fight Club too,
but now I look at these movies and I'm
like, I, you know, speaking of cringe
there's a lot of cringe involved.
Oh!
I love Excalibur, but yes, absolutely.
Sian: can quote the
entire movie at you, but
Emily: yeah, like your take on
the Wicker Man, I'm like, I didn't
really think about that so much
because I was so enjoying the songs.
I'm
Sian: I mean, Wicker Man is one of the
very few horror films that actually
could realistically be called delightful.
Emily: yes, yes.
Sian: know, so, you know, I'm, you
can enjoy the songs in the Wicker Man,
Jeremy: yes.
I mean, some of us grew up on Excalibur
and the Ralph Bakshi Lord of the Rings.
So, you know,
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: it happens.
Sian: although I can never watch that
film again once it was pointed out to
me that there's a bit where one of the
actors they were rotoscoping fell over
and then had to get up again and they just
Jeremy: it's Aragorn.
Sian: it.
I can never get over that.
Emily: I think that's beautiful.
I mean, that's more, that's more
interesting to me than the, um,
like actually watching the movie.
Sorry.
Sian: Well, I mean, the movies
are nine hours of my life.
You know, and they're nine hours of my
life that I don't regret, but it's not
another nine hours that I'm gonna give up.
Like, I'm currently doing a project
where I am looking at every version
and every sequel of the June series,
but not the Brian Herbert spinoffs,
because I'm not a monster and,
Emily: Oh my god.
I salute you.
Not just for that particular
decision, but I know that rabbit hole.
Sian: yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I,
Emily: upon the brink and
looked into that abyss and I'm
Sian: and, and I'm, I instead,
instead of looking at.
The Hodorovsky version of Dune,
I, I did, I decided to look at
the comics that the guy wrote
Emily: Oh yeah.
Sian: a Dune movie.
And that's much more fun and
interesting, but I'm I kind of stalled
a bit on the fifth Dune novel because
now Frank Herbert's plot synopsis
is a post it note on his fridge
saying Tuesday, write a Dune novel.
And But yeah, you see this sort
of thing happening, and again,
we're getting very sidetracked,
and I'm just sort of wittering now.
Um,
Emily: No, this is good.
Although, Jeremy is, now we talked
about Dune, I think Jeremy is, uh, has,
Jeremy: was, I was looking for, uh, I
meant to tell you that at ALA I hung
out with the humanoids people and
I got several, uh, Yodorovsky, uh,
Sian: yeah,
Emily: oh
Jeremy: had sitting around.
Sian: oh, the meta barons include a guy
who flies a spaceship with his cock.
Like, I mean,
Jeremy: Hold on.
Let me, uh, let me find this real quick.
Emily: you want to, but, are certain
steps on that journey that we need
to acknowledge and I think that's
important that, you know, Extra
ass, artsy, comic book journeys.
as a species have been, oh, the ankle,
Sian: The Incal, an entire comic book that
ends with someone needing to take a nap.
Um,
Jeremy: All comic books do eventually.
Emily: yeah,
Sian: got, and, The fact that he actually
does this, like, actually genuinely
great, if weird, comic with Meebius
and then decides to do a prequel and a
sequel, which essentially decanonize it.
And the prequel is terrible, by the way.
It's really bad.
The Meta Barons is something.
I read it even 25 years
ago when I first read it.
I was like, this has
problematic gender politics.
Emily: yeah, oh, well I've,
I've heard Hodorowski talk, I,
Sian: Oh my god, Hodorovsky.
Yeah, I mean, have you seen the
documentary about his version of Dune
Emily: oh yeah,
Sian: make?
Yeah, I mean, you're watching that
and you're just going, this guy is
terrible, and everybody else is going,
what a genius, and have you listened
to a single word this man is saying?
Emily: yeah, he's, can I say one thing?
Jeremy: Sure.
Emily: I do think this movie is feminist.
Sian: Okay.
Emily: Yeah, I do think
this is a feminist movie.
Jeremy: Well, I guess our next
question is would you recommend it?
And Emily, after, after coming in a
little hot, would you recommend it?
Emily: With the I think it's definitely
one of those that is a it, I don't
think it stands on its own so much
as like, it needs an introduction.
It needs a thesis statement
from somebody who loves it.
Sian: Hello.
Emily: Yes, exactly.
Like, I think it needs, I think that
seeing it a particular way helps.
Because otherwise, if you go into it
blind, I think that was my biggest
problem is that going into it blind.
So I do not recommend, I recommend
Reading a reading something about it,
reading Sean's top 10 horror movies,
and then being like, okay, let's go.
Jeremy: What I will absolutely say about
May is that I, I do like the movie.
I would recommend it.
I think one of the saving graces of
it when you compare it to similar
movies, both of the time and now is
that it is an ice cold 93 minutes.
And that is,
Sian: Boom.
Yeah.
Jeremy: if this movie could easily be a
two, two and a half hour masturbatory,
um, work of horror cinema but it isn't.
It's 93 minutes, in and out.
Um, it does what it needs to do.
It even feels a little long at
93 minutes at some points, yeah.
Emily: that's true.
Sian: It's true.
Yeah, no, you're right.
And I think I would reckon, I think again,
you've made the absolute solid point that
I would recommend it in the way that I
would recommend one of my favourite 70s
movies, or in the way that I'd recommend.
One of my favorite like, like
something like quite a mass in
the pits or something like that.
One of those films that I'd like go.
This is objectively great, but do take
a moment to think about when it was made
in the vocabulary was used to make it and
all those things because it comes from
a period and it's good for its period.
Emily: Yeah.
Sian: Like, Star Wars is a
better 1977 movie than a lot.
Then say, for example, Dune Part 2 movie.
Is Dune Part 2 a better
film than Star Wars?
I don't know.
I don't think it is, honestly.
But, but, you have a film that's a better
You know, I'd rather watch a film that
was a better 2022 A better 2002 movie
than a film that was better than that,
that's still not a very good 2024 movie.
Emily: Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy: I feel you on that one.
on that note,
Sian: Yeah.
Jeremy: do you have a recommendation?
What would you like to recommend?
Sian: What a film to watch.
Jeremy: Yeah, people coming out of
Sian: All right.
I have a particular love of a
certain sort of 1970s Italian movie,
actually, since I mentioned those.
And there is a particular film called
The Perfume of the Lady in Black.
It's from 1976.
It stars an American
actor called Mimsy Farmer.
It was made in a period when
Italian films were entirely
dubbed in multiple languages.
So, and every actor just delivered
the lines in their own language.
So you can either watch the English
dub where Mimsy Farmer's lines sync
with their lips and nobody else's do.
Or you can watch the Italian version
where everybody else's lines sync with
their lips and Mimsy Farmer's don't.
But neither, neither is
better than the other.
But it is a great strange film
that, it's a very strange film.
It's about someone, it's a horror
film about someone coping with
their inner child and It has
one of those lovely, poetically
misleading Italian movie titles.
That one, and also possibly as a double
bill Sergio Martino's 1972 film, All
the Colours of the Dark, which is again
a film about a woman being gaslit for
an hour and a half, and coming out the
other side, but it is also a film that
has, The ultimate groovy, psychedelic,
satanic ritual scene, bar none.
There is no film that has a groovy,
psychedelic, satanic ritual that matches
the one in All the Colors of the Dark.
Emily: Not even the church?
Sian: Not even The Church.
Emily: Okay.
Sian: Because this is 1972, and
therefore it is a groovy, satanic ritual.
Emily: Yes.
Okay.
Sian: It's groovy,
psychedelic, satanic ritual.
And the groovy and the psychedelic
part involving like swirly cameras
and sort of like, you know, like
in sort of like easy listening
style, psychedelic music and sort
Emily: Oh, good.
Sian: it's, it's really, you, and, and
you'll watch the, it's a problematic
fricking movie, let me be honest, but
it's also a movie about, it's a movie
about a woman being gaslit that invites
you to sympathize with the woman.
Emily: I mean, all you have to
say is groovy, psychedelic, Satan
Sian: Satanic ritual.
Yeah.
And it's literally worth seeing
just for like the 10 minutes
of groovy, psychedelic, satanic
ritual in the middle of the movie.
Emily: Okay.
Jeremy: Uh, Emily, what have you
got that you want to recommend?
Emily: Well, I mentioned Twin Peaks
in terms of, um, if you're looking
for neurodivergent representation, if
you're looking for another movie that
is about neurodivergence and and is very
challenging and very magical there is
a, I have sort of a weird connection
with this movie and Poor Things that
I've drawn and Poor Things is also
like, again, very challenging, a lot
less mumblecore and more magical, but,
Sian: Yeah.
Yeah.
Poor things.
Emily: but and then This is a complete
coincidence, but there was an episode
of Adventure Time that I watched
because I was watching Adventure
Time as sort of a palate cleanser.
Season four, episode seven of Adventure
Time is called Princess Monster Wife.
And it's very, very similar
in a lot of ways to this film.
So check that out.
Sian: Cool.
That's amazing.
And yeah, poor things.
I hadn't actually even made
that connection, but Oh my word.
Yes.
Poor things.
That's, uh, That's a film.
Emily: it is a film.
Jeremy: a movie that starts
from the end of this one.
Emily: Kind of, yeah.
A little bit.
A
Jeremy: it's uh, it's an interesting film.
so I had a couple of different
recommendations that, that came up for me.
Uh, initially it's gonna
say all cheerleaders die.
The feature, not the short version feature
is better, but it's much more recent.
It is, same director and
writer has some similar feel.
It is much more recent, so it
I would say lands better and
avoids some of those things.
It also has, gay witch who's in love
with a cheerleader and Seeking revenge.
So, and all that stuff's good.
Uh, I would also say because
it came up that he, Lucky McKee
actually directed what's maybe
the best episode of Poker Face.
I recommended Poker Face before
but if you haven't seen Poker Face
it is created by Ryan Johnson.
It is starring Natasha Lyonne.
It is a, you know, week, a mystery
of the week kind of story with a
sort of plot that's going through it.
And really, Natasha Lyonne's character is
just sort of, she just has this gift that
she knows when people are lying to her.
She doesn't know what they're lying about,
or how, or whatever, she just knows.
when she hears somebody lying to her.
So, that's just sort of the
underlying thing of that.
Otherwise, she's basically Matlock.
Like, just sort of femme,
not a cop, man, Matlock.
And yeah, if you've, Natasha Lyonne,
I feel like, has a lot of crossover
with the other people in this movie
and the time and vibe of this movie.
Uh,
Sian: yeah.
Um, but I'm a cheerleader, for instance.
There we go, there's a mumblecore comedy.
Emily: Oh,
Jeremy: Yeah.
Uh, we've, I believe we've recommended
that one near a hundred times on
this show for various reasons.
Sian: recommend it enough.
Jeremy: yeah.
And, uh, the, the one other thing that
came to me as I was watching this movie
is that the movie that I feel like
it has the most DNA in common with
despite being filmed at different times
in different countries with a whole
different cast is Ginger Snaps, um,
which just has such a, such a similar,
like mumble core monster movie, sort of
an extremely pitch black, dark comedy,
while also sort of a horror movie
about, you know, about people who, uh,
don't deal with other people very well.
Emily: Also, a lot of sad animal
death in that one, so watch out.
Jeremy: Super dense with sad animal death.
But yeah, if, uh, if you haven't
seen that, we have talked
about Ginger Snaps on here.
But yeah go check out that
episode and go check out Ginger
Snaps if you haven't watched it.
All right, that, uh,
that wraps it up for us.
Sean, do you want to let people know
where they can find you online, where
they can keep up with your work?
Sian: okay.
So you can find my works on Amazon.
The best way to keep track of what
I'm doing at the moment is at patreon.
com slash room 207 press.
And that's only one dollar
a month to subscribe.
And if you get that one dollar a month,
you get access to a gajillion words.
That's the scientific accurate term
of writing, going back about eight
years on film and other things.
And and of course, there's no
obligation to like pay more than that
one dollar or do it going forwards.
You can like pay the one dollar,
read as much as you like and then
go away and that's just fine.
I'm just happy to have
someone read my things.
And that's, that's the main thing.
If you watch the if you watch the
documentary, Woodlands Dark and Days
Bewitched, you can see me there.
being dead named, but
talking about folk horror.
And there are going to be some more
books coming out, but not right now.
you can also find an archive of my work
that's publicly available at room207press.
com as well.
Jeremy: And, uh, Emily, do you
want to remind people where they
can find you and your stuff?
Emily: Megamoth.
net.
Also, I do I also have a 1 here on
my Patreon, a megamoth a Patreon,
and that's, I'm on Blue Sky, I'm on
Tumblr, I'm on Instagram, there's
an underscore between mega and moth,
but other than that, here we are.
Sian: Yeah, I'm on Blue Sky as well.
Emily: Okay.
Sian: So,
Jeremy: Yeah, I believe that's
where we, we got hooked up.
Sian: yes, indeed.
Currently on Blue Sky, I think I'm.
What did I call myself
on BlueSky at the moment?
Yeah.
All right.
So I'm going to write that in the thing.
It's parthenoid.
bluesky.
social, which I'm going to
write in the group chat so
you can put it in your notes.
Jeremy: and you can find
me all those places too.
I am jeremy whitley.com.
I'm Jeremy Whitley on blue
Sky and Tumblr and J Rome five
eight on Instagram and Twitter.
And you can find the podcast
at progressively horrified.
transistor.
fm and follow us on Patreon as well.
Uh, we are progressively
horrified on there.
Uh, and you can also follow us
on socials at proghorrorpod, find
out what we're up to, when will
I remember to update that stuff.
At the very least you'll see
when new episodes come out.
All right, that I think does it for us.
Sean, thank you so much for joining us.
This
Sian: It's been a delight.
I'm just really honoured to be on.
Yeah, if you want to talk about the Wicker
Man at some point in the future hit me
up and we can, we can do that thing.
Emily: Excellent.
Jeremy: that was great, and Emily,
thank you as always, thank all of
you all out there for listening,
and until next time, stay horrified.