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The world is just so interesting that it's impossible not to be fascinated by it, and the people who inhabit it. Join host Dave Moss on this long-form interview podcast, as he follows his curiosity to learn new things from some of the most fascinating people and hopefully introduce you to some amazing things along the way.
Dave Moss (00:01.928)
Jen, thank you so much for being here and hanging out with me today. Every time I've had a conversation with you over the last, God, I don't know, what has it been? Like nine years or something. It has always been so interesting. Every time I see you speak on stage, I'm always blown away.
Jennifer Moher (00:14.734)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (00:22.368)
And recently I was listening to the first episode of your new podcast the wonderest and something jumped out at me immediately where I feel like I want I want you to talk about this because I feel like I Fit it just felt so viscerally true to me and it's those two girls in the audience and like what they represent So for anybody who's already listened to your podcast They probably heard the story But for those who haven't like would you mind giving like a Coles notes version and then talk about like what that meant to you?
Jennifer Moher (00:41.329)
Mmm.
Jennifer Moher (00:49.462)
Yeah. Oh, man. OK. This is great. I'm super excited about this. Likewise, what is it? 10 years. This is amazing. I'm so happy. I'm actually very honored too, because you know how you usually get in your own head, and you're like, I have nothing interesting to say, especially when you run your own podcast, you're
you're interviewing other people and asking other people about their lives. So when someone actually wants to know about yours, it's like, what, you want to know my stories? Um, so yeah, okay. So the two girls in the front row, basically, uh, you remember elementary school speeches. It's like the bane of most people's existence. Like kids get terrified. And it's only a three to five minutes speech that you have to give in front of your class. And
I had this, I was already a bit of an outcast in elementary school. I really didn't have a lot of friends. I didn't quite fit in. And when I did, it was just really awkward and uncomfortable. And so I just, every year with speeches, I didn't care to fit in. So I would choose these crazy...
topics like one year I did Nostradamus and all of his predictions in like grade six. Like what 12 year old does that? Other kids are talking about like I hate my brother and I'm like Nostradamus predicted this. And uh grade eight I did aliens and I reenacted what it would be like to be
Jennifer Moher (02:30.134)
decided to do my speech with the help of my mom on the first female doctor in Canada. And I believe it was Canada and England now that I've gone back and researched, but essentially she had disguised herself as a man for the majority of her life in order to go to school, um, get her education, practice, uh, medicine. And so I did this speech.
And my mom was like, you know what? You should get a, an old vintage jacket. You should wear a mustache. Like you should disguise as a man for the speech. And then at the end, you should rip off your mustache. And it was the coolest speech ever. Like I was so proud of it. I was so happy. So I got to go on in front of my class. I won for the classroom. I got to go on and do it in front of the school, which was a huge honor. And I won for that. And then I got to go to the Legion, which like when you're 12, it's a huge honor to be able to go and speak in front of.
I don't know, maybe like a hundred people in this, in this building. So I go up, I'm so confident. I've got my cool jacket. I've got my mustache and I'm about to get on stage. And as I'm walking up, I noticed these two girls in the front row and they are visibly cool girls. You, you know, the type, right? Like they had like, I don't know, like cool Oshpagosh overalls. I'm like chokers. Like they just looked really cool. And I was like, Oh man, like instantly I felt.
Dave Moss (03:44.783)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (03:54.894)
really intimidated. And so I get up, I start doing my speech and I start fumbling because I'm focused on them. They're right in the front row and there's hundreds of people sitting behind them, but I'm so focused on these two girls. I can see them nudging, elbowing each other, whispering, and I ended up just completely blowing the speech entirely. Like it was terrible. I did a terrible job. I fumbled. I had to keep looking at my cue cards, which you lose points for. And it was,
pivotal moment. Like I don't remember many things from that age, but that's something that I remember. And I've kind of taken that with me. And it comes up like multiple times in my life where I'm like, okay, Jen, like don't focus on the two girls. There's a hundred people behind them that are so interested in this topic and this speech, and they want to hear you talk, stop focusing on them. So it's become almost like a practice in my life where I'm reminded of them.
Dave Moss (04:28.138)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (04:51.87)
And I'm actually grateful for them in many ways. It's pretty cool.
Dave Moss (04:57.188)
Yeah, I think it's such a common thing, and especially I find for creatives to get hung up on the proverbial two girls, right? Like, even me when I was coming up with the concept for this podcast, everything I have done in my life has had to have an audience, right? Like, it has to have a purpose. It has to, you know, it wasn't a hobby, it was a side hustle kind of thing. And as I was coming up with this concept, I was like, but who's it for? And thankfully,
Jennifer Moher (05:06.561)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (05:13.389)
Mmm.
Dave Moss (05:26.588)
I mean, everybody who knows me knows this, thankfully some good mushrooms. I realized it didn't need to have an audience, right? Like it was that sort of thing of like, you're doing this because you're interested and you're curious and you're passionate, let that be enough and let that be the driving force. And if other people are interested and curious and passionate, then that's good enough. But I think it's why whenever I've gone to...
Jennifer Moher (05:31.483)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (05:35.371)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (05:50.242)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (05:53.748)
photo conferences whenever my friends are speaking I always want to be in the front row so it's like worst-case scenario They have someone to focus on who is just in it who's just there and stoked
Jennifer Moher (06:01.298)
Yeah. I totally agree. And what's so funny about you even saying that is that you were the person dead center front row for my very first photography conference. That actually makes me want to cry. Just even realizing that this is such a full circle moment because I remember being so nervous and having that same anxiety that I had when I was 12 getting up onto that stage. Where, where, where are we Portland?
Dave Moss (06:28.936)
Portland, yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Moher (06:28.958)
It was Mystic. Yeah, and it was like an audience of like 300 or 400 photographers who were all like really, really good, like high caliber. Yeah, and I was like, I remember even one photographer who was a speaker was like, I'm sorry, who are you? And I was like, oh god, I don't belong here. Which is fine, like I didn't expect anyone to even know me.
Dave Moss (06:38.865)
Yeah, it's a hard room.
Jennifer Moher (06:54.986)
But yeah, I remember getting up on the stage and looking out and seeing your huge smile in the front row. And just what a difference in feeling, seeing you there. I don't think I took my eyes off of you the entire time. It was great. It was so comforting. But yeah, you're right. It's like those girls, those metaphoric girls, they're going to leave eventually.
Dave Moss (07:04.771)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (07:08.8)
D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D
Jennifer Moher (07:23.23)
If you keep talking that like they're only there to kind of heckle you for the first two seconds and then they leave because they realize the content isn't for them. So it's, it's definitely been a lesson for sure.
Dave Moss (07:30.259)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (07:36.7)
Is that like reliving that moment? Is that what drove you to be in Chicago, step up on a stage for the first time for education? Like is that part of the driving force? Cause I mean.
I see you on stage and you're such a great show person and like you just like you command a presence and it just feels like you were born up there but obviously you know it's highlights and behind the scenes but like is there a part of that where you're almost doing it in spite of them?
Jennifer Moher (08:10.198)
That's a really good question. I've never even meditated on that.
But I mean, it could be subconsciously, there could be something there. But from a very, very young age, I remember my brother and I, we'd be like eight, seven or eight, and we were doing musicals. We were writing our own musicals and performing them in our basement for our parents. We would get bedsheets, and we would hang them from, it was like a drop, you know the drop ceilings, the old, yeah. So we would push that weird drop ceiling stuff up and tuck bedsheets.
Dave Moss (08:38.621)
Oh yeah.
Jennifer Moher (08:45.988)
in so they were our curtains and we would bring two lawn chairs in for my parents to sit on and perform these numbers. I think I've always just enjoyed the art of performance and I never really had it other than just at home as a kid I was never in involved in theater. It wasn't until I was a bit older
And even, you know, looking back also, it's funny. Just like all of these memories are flooding back. This is so nostalgic. But because I was an outcast in elementary school, it was almost like I had nothing to lose by putting myself out there and being vulnerable because I already didn't really have friends. So it was like, well, might as well just do what I wanna do.
Dave Moss (09:25.449)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (09:33.898)
And I mean, I sang at our graduation. I was in like a couple musicals in elementary school, but I never had that. That fear. The only time was with those, those two girls. And I don't know. I don't know why that was. So like why that affected me so much. I think it was because I felt like I maybe had stepped up into this.
Dave Moss (09:46.077)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (09:57.206)
this like new height, like where it was like, wow, like I'm actually being honored now for this little speech. And then it kind of was like almost a blow, like it brought me back down, maybe, I don't know. Who knows, man. Kid stuff.
Dave Moss (10:10.256)
Yeah, I wonder, you know, in an alternate universe, like had you nailed that speech, would you ever have remembered those two girls in their amazing overalls and chokers?
Jennifer Moher (10:22.262)
Not no, but I mean even to even today like there's and I don't know if you're the same way but like I usually project that fear and it's just based in my own
Dave Moss (10:23.593)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (10:37.478)
nervous system, but I will walk into certain situations and I instantly assess people and I'm like, oh, they're way cooler than me. Like, oh, I don't I shouldn't talk. I shouldn't say anything because they're way cooler than me. Like it's, it never really leaves you, right? You just have to kind of fight against it, I suppose.
Dave Moss (10:52.392)
No.
Dave Moss (10:56.804)
Yeah, like it's that it's sort of like, I was listening to a psychologist speak recently and he was talking about imposter syndrome and he's like, everybody who's not a narcissist has it. Like everybody feels that everybody feels like they're out of place and like you're talking about elementary school and junior high and doing all of these things where it's like I'm already an outcast so I may as well do whatever you want. I did the exact opposite right? Like I'm like I'm an outcast, I don't want anybody to see me and just like closed in and I feel like that's also like...
Jennifer Moher (11:06.388)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (11:16.27)
Totally.
Jennifer Moher (11:21.101)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (11:24.456)
People tend to go one of two ways, right? They're either do it just because, you know, what is the phrase like wave your freak flag or let your freak flag fly. And then like there's other people who are just like, no, I can't, like I can't be seen because if they see the true me, then they'll judge me or whatever. And so it's like, yeah, I mean, I thought about that about you the first time. Like, I'm like, oh, she's too cool. Like she's not gonna wanna hang out with me.
Jennifer Moher (11:34.926)
Totally.
Jennifer Moher (11:42.914)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (11:50.029)
Then you got to know me. Oh, man.
Dave Moss (11:53.416)
Well, you just, I got to know you and you were just so real and so transparent and so vulnerable. And I just really, really appreciated that because I've been really lucky that, you know, they always say don't meet your heroes. But a lot of the people over the years, like I've always been, Abby makes fun of me because I always love, you know, people who would be on the D list, you know, like.
I don't really look up to people who are on the A-list, but like a local news anchor, I'm like, oh my God, whatever, like, I don't know why, but they've always been so kind and like not on a pedestal and everything else like that. And so it's like, that's sort of the energy that I bring to it now is just like, just be vulnerable, be open, everybody's panicking, everybody's a four-year-old inside.
Jennifer Moher (12:17.578)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (12:22.196)
Totally.
Jennifer Moher (12:25.911)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (12:31.533)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (12:35.894)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's actually a practice that I use regularly is picturing other people. It's like a practice in compassion, but picturing every single person in my life as like the four or five-year-old version of themselves. Like anytime I'm angry with someone, I'm just like, okay, picture them as a four-year-old. It's fine. Like they're just a sad little child. And it's become such a great practice. I love that. I love that you just said that. That's great.
Yeah.
Dave Moss (13:05.552)
Yeah, yeah, it's I picture myself like that sometimes too. Like when I when I lose my shit, like we constant learners, my wife and I, we just took an online course from this guy named Terry real from the relational life Institute. It's like couples therapy.
Jennifer Moher (13:22.094)
cool.
Dave Moss (13:22.452)
And one of the things he talks about is the wise adult versus the adaptive child. And it's that concept of like when you feel that child energy coming up, when you feel like you know someone's blaming you for something or you're just gonna lash out like literally envision your wise adult stepping in front of them and protecting them from that moment. And so it's like I do the same thing with other people now. It's like if they're being shitty it's like it's not them.
Jennifer Moher (13:41.92)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (13:47.65)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (13:47.964)
you know, that's their trauma or that's their, you know, their scared self or whatever. And it's, it's okay. And it's like having that practice has been really helpful.
Jennifer Moher (13:52.139)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (13:56.194)
Oh man, I totally agree. There's been so much inner child healing and work that I've been doing over the past little while. I mean, I feel like the past four years have been, I think I've tried like almost every different modality of healing and self-exploration that exists, apart from like Ayahuasca. I mean, that'll come at some point, I'm sure. Yeah.
Dave Moss (14:21.848)
Which is a bombshell. What drove you down that road if you don't mind talking about it? Why this journey now?
Jennifer Moher (14:31.782)
Yeah, I mean, I think a big, a big part of it was, uh, quitting alcohol. I think that kind of started everything and put things into motion. So when I stopped drinking, I should preface by saying I didn't have like an obvious drinking problem. I think when people hear like, Oh, she's sober, they instantly think like, Oh, she must've been just like wasted all the time passing out in ditches. But it wasn't that.
Um, I just started to notice a, that I didn't like the person that I was when I was drinking, um, even if it was just a couple glasses of wine, I just didn't enjoy who I was like energetically. It felt like I wasn't myself. Um, and then I realized that there was a dependency because I remember thinking like, okay, I'll just, I'll just stop drinking for like a month and I.
I found like I couldn't really do that. And so that was a big red flag. So I was like, all right, I'm going to do it for a year. Like I'll do a full year, no drinking. And that was four and a half years ago and I haven't had anything since. So it was knowing that I think whenever you put that, that timeframe on it on sobriety, like if you're like, okay, in a year, you're still in the, the alcoholic.
headspace by putting that timeframe on it. Cause it's like, okay, the treat at the end of this year is that you get to drink. And so by just removing it entirely, that was, that was actually how sobriety became really, really easy. Um, but through that process, it was like, there was almost like an energetic clearing. Um, like a brain fog disappeared.
Dave Moss (15:53.14)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (16:20.322)
cloudiness energetically things became a lot lighter they didn't feel as heavy I didn't feel weighed down I used to struggle with nighttime anxiety so I would lay up in bed at night and I would just spiral thinking about every possible thing I could think about as I'm sure like you would understand right yeah and
Dave Moss (16:30.087)
Mm.
Dave Moss (16:40.318)
Yup.
Jennifer Moher (16:43.578)
Like I could feel my body would start overheating and like it was like a physical reaction to the, to the stress and my nervous system was just very unbalanced. So that kind of started to dissipate as well. And I just got really into the transformation part of that. I just thought like, okay, what else can I do to improve my life, to improve my brain, my nervous system? Um, yeah. So I started.
different things like going to see a Reiki practitioner, I started talk therapy, oh my God, mushrooms. Just like all the different things. I've spoken to a Balinese healer and medium. I've seen psychics, I've done all the things, acupuncture, just everything I could possibly do to just test things out and see what things worked.
best and yeah, a lot of inner child work now through meditation and yoga. So it's been a journey.
Dave Moss (17:47.284)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (17:50.608)
That, yeah, I mean, was part of that, because oftentimes when you hear people, especially if they're seeing mediums or seeing energy workers or seeing things like that, it's like, it's a spiritual journey, not just a growth journey. Has has part of this for you been getting in touch with a sense of personal spirituality as well?
Jennifer Moher (18:10.91)
Absolutely. Yeah. I was raised Catholic and, um, like kind of like blindly raised Catholic where you just, you're thrown into the Catholic school system and you go to church for Christmas and Easter and the odd Sunday, but you don't really know why or you know what, what the purpose is. And so
When I was a little bit older, around like 18, 19, I just stopped going because church was boring. And, you know, then when I got a little bit older, I was like, okay, I'm forming my own opinions about organized religion and different things around that. And I think there was a gap in like maybe from the age of 25 to 35, where I just felt almost like I wasn't grounded to anything because I didn't, I no longer had that sort of religion.
Um, I don't know if that was like atheism or where I was as far as like spirituality is concerned, but I felt very untethered to myself, to the universe. And so I think, yeah, that part of like doing that inner reflective work, um, quieting the noise was a way to sort of tether myself back to myself, if that makes sense.
Does that sound very flighty?
Dave Moss (19:34.756)
No, I mean, I think for a lot of people who either grew up religious or without it, you know, who go through that journey, whether it's in their 20s or 30s or 40s, it is that sort of like... Like, I was... I grew up going to church until I was six years old, and we stopped going, because my sisters would fight every time we got home from church. My parents were just like, nope.
And so we had the absence of religion aside from Christmas Eve. My grandmother was still very religious and she always went to Christmas Eve service. And so we would always go. And like that was my touch point to any type of spirituality. And then, you know, angry atheists through my like late teens, early 20s, because I saw so many friends who had left the church and how it had impacted their life. And then in my 30s, it was like, I now I just I feel like I'm not a part of it.
Jennifer Moher (20:14.615)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (20:28.71)
anything. And so you're looking for that sort of, like you said, like that groundedness or that we want, I think as human beings, we are inherently spiritual beings in one way or the other and we just want to be a part of something, whether it's a community or the universe or whatever. So yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Jennifer Moher (20:41.355)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I mean, even just the past, um, six months or so I've, I've found that there's been such a expansiveness and an opening every single time I go into the yoga studio that I practice at and I get on the mat. It's like,
I call it like the Elizabeth Gilbert situation where, you know, how she talks about the ideas kind of coming to you. And if you don't grab them, they go and find someone else. And so I've been having these like more and more and more lately when I'm in that space on the mat and connected to myself.
Dave Moss (21:12.813)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (21:23.802)
And that's where the podcast name came from that I started. And even just the intention behind it, it just kind of, it's like you've received these downloads. And I know it sounds so bizarre to anyone who isn't open to this. It sounds like we're talking crazy talk. But.
Dave Moss (21:43.068)
And I used to think it was crazy talk, because like two weeks before Abby and I got married, she went and did ayahuasca. And before that, she was an atheist and trying to find her place in the world. And she had latched onto veganism at that point in time and everything. She came home and she was talking about all this different stuff and energy and all the rest of this. And for years, I'm just like...
Jennifer Moher (21:44.573)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (21:55.947)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (22:05.996)
Okay, sure, you know, that was my reaction to all of it And then like we started distancing because this was becoming super important to her and I was just you know I planted my feet. I'm like, this is who I am. There's nothing else out there. Like I had just made this decision And she kept saying be you know, be more open-minded and I'm like, but I am open-minded you know, it's like that like I didn't even I didn't know what I didn't know and so
Jennifer Moher (22:06.859)
Yeah
Jennifer Moher (22:10.599)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (22:29.355)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (22:32.712)
I'm like, okay, well, I think I have to go and do ayahuasca. Like that was my thought. Like not like go to get some therapy or anything. It's like, no, I have to go right off the deep end and do this thing and be prepared to lose myself because that's what I felt like had happened to Abby. Like she came back a different person. And so I had to, it took two and a half years for me to get up the courage to be prepared to be a different person.
Jennifer Moher (22:39.092)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (22:58.176)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (22:58.788)
And I went and did it and Abby said one of the happiest moments of her life was the morning after my first ayahuasca ceremony. I just sent her a text message from Columbia that just said, I get it now. And it was, yeah, it was just, it was just opening to that. Like, what if, you know, what if this is true or what if there's just more or what if I can just be open?
Jennifer Moher (23:08.502)
Wow. Oh, I just got goosebumps. Wow.
Jennifer Moher (23:15.179)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (23:25.502)
Yeah, absolutely. No.
Dave Moss (23:25.544)
You know, and it doesn't hurt anybody. It's not a bad process. But like I had to just, I had to lose my mind to get there kind of in a way. And I think a lot of people have an easier path with it, but a lot of people have a hard path with spirituality and they spend their whole lives being angry at it.
Jennifer Moher (23:35.049)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (23:38.749)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think I think you're so right though about the what if like just being open even when certain things happen. Shifting your mindset to viewing them as signs from the universe rather than just like being the molder instead of the scully. You know what I mean. Right. As an X-Files reference. Yeah, just being open to that and
Dave Moss (24:03.524)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Jennifer Moher (24:11.434)
It's the, I want to believe kind of mentality of like, I don't, I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm just going to lean into it and open myself up to it. And even I spoke to a medium a couple of days ago, actually, or maybe it was last week and it was, it was incredible. I made a post about it on Instagram, but he spoke about, so I mean, a lot of the things that he said were just like,
Dave Moss (24:18.6)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (24:38.962)
Even if he had looked up my name, he was like an 80 year old man. But even if he had looked up my name and had access to the internet, which I don't think he does, he wouldn't have been able to find these details about me. Like they were so intimately mine that. And they were unique as well. You know, a lot of people will challenge you and say, Oh, well, you know, anyone could be experiencing that. So if a medium tells you this, that's just whatever, but, um,
He spoke about my grandma and my papa who I know are with me. Like I just, I know every time I go to Reiki, every time I like have these medium encounters, they always reference these two people and like to a T to details. And so that's how the session began. And from that point on, I was like, all right, you've got me. I will believe anything you say. And he spoke about how
You know, he's like, you really need to be doing something in the realm of photography. Like I see you doing something in the realm of photography and educating others within the realm of photography. And I was just like, did you Google me? Like what? But the guy is so like, he's so old. They use a landline. I mean, like they don't even have cell phones. I don't know. It just, I don't think he was, he was faking it, but.
Dave Moss (25:47.2)
Yeah
Jennifer Moher (26:02.162)
Yeah, uh, just stuff about past lives as well. Past lives between my partner and I and certain parts of the past lives that make so much sense, um, as far as my own fears that I have in this current life. I have this fear. I hope you don't mind me sharing one of these past life stories. Okay, cool. I love it. Yeah.
Dave Moss (26:23.288)
No, no, no. My wife talks about past lives all the time. She went to her therapist last week and she's like, can we work on a past life thing? The therapist is like, why not? So yeah, this is totally not uncomfortable.
Jennifer Moher (26:30.85)
Yes. Yeah. So he basically told me that Dustin and I were married in a past life and that Dustin went away to war in this past life and never came home. And I have this
Irrational fear every time he goes anywhere that's out of town. If he's driving two hours out of town, I get really irrational anxiety that he's not going to make it home. And I I've never felt this with any other partners in my life. I don't feel it with any other humans. I only feel it with him and it's.
I've always been curious as to why I feel that anxiety, because I'm like, Jen, you're being crazy. Everything is fine. Don't worry. But that almost answered that in a way. I was like, wow, what if? What if that's true? And that's where that fear is coming from. So yeah, there was stuff like that. He said that I was a writer in my past life, my most recent past life. I was a writer, and that my purpose here is to just share words. So I'm like.
Cool. It's so neat. Yeah.
Dave Moss (27:39.42)
It all balances out. Yeah, yeah, and it is that one thing that really sort of brought me around to the other side of it. Because even if it's not true, what if it helps that person? What if it makes their life easier? What if it starts them on their road to healing or recovery or whatever or anything else like that? I just, sure, there are...
Jennifer Moher (27:52.906)
Absolutely.
Jennifer Moher (27:58.359)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (28:03.092)
psychics and mediums out there and things like that who just are out to get a buck, you know, and that sucks. But that's true of every industry. Yeah, and yeah, so.
Jennifer Moher (28:07.992)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (28:11.37)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I mean, if it brings you a sense of peace and a sense of calm, then it's not hurting anyone. You know? There was a lot that's been said through multiple mediums that I've spoken with that have just been so affirming and calming, where it just feels like I'm a completely different person today than prior to experiencing these humans.
Dave Moss (28:21.404)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dave Moss (28:41.033)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (28:42.105)
It's really cool.
Dave Moss (28:43.688)
Yeah, and I mean really that's something that I've realized over the last few years is that's what we're all trying to get to Right is just like understanding calm peace, you know all the rest of this and
Jennifer Moher (28:50.018)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (28:56.896)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (28:57.944)
who cares, as long as it's not harming another person who cares how they get there, just let them have their peace. And that's like, that's been, that was a part of my Ayahuasca growth is just letting people have their peace and learning when to listen and when to shut up and all the rest of that. It was just, it's been big. And that's why my practice has shifted away from, hey, let's figure out your marketing and more like, let's find you peace because that's going to make everything else so much easier
Jennifer Moher (29:03.435)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (29:07.521)
Mm.
Jennifer Moher (29:11.799)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (29:15.839)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (29:22.87)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (29:26.518)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (29:27.878)
and the mindset and the, you know, why don't you value yourself? And that's why you're not charging enough money or whatever, all of those things. Cause that's really the work.
Jennifer Moher (29:33.482)
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's interesting because I feel like we, we have been.
You and I have been going on these same sort of parallel paths for years. It's so cool. And I love catching up with you because it seems like we're always just like, Oh, you're here too. Cool. We're right beside each other. I love it. But there's, um, there's a retreat that my friend and I are planning at the moment and that's the point of it. It's not, it's not about like, okay, here's all the SEO tactics. Here's, um, you know, how to beat the algorithm. Like none of that. Chaos.
Dave Moss (29:45.928)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (30:12.054)
But it's more about the holistic approach to the blend of calming your nervous system, tapping into who you are, opening yourself up, opening your heart and creating from that space. And just the idea that you can't create from a state of stress. It's just impossible. And so just blending those two worlds together, um, in an, an educational setting. But.
Dave Moss (30:25.224)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (30:31.252)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (30:41.07)
for the nervous system. I'm so excited about it. Like I wish that this had existed five, 10 years ago. You know? I mean.
Dave Moss (30:48.592)
Yeah. I mean, how much further along would we be if we were around 10 years ago for ourselves? And that's always the piece that I look at. You know, the talk I gave at True North when we were together last and stuff like that is like, it was all based around...
what would have made my life easier 10 years ago when I was starting out this five years ago, whatever. And I was listening to a podcast with a guy named Jim Quick recently, and he calls himself the brain coach. And he talks about there's these three things that we need to move forward in life. It's mindset, motivation, and methodology, the three M's he calls it. And he's like, the method is often the easiest piece. There's a million YouTube videos out there. There's a million courses.
whatever, to learn the method of how to do something. But if you don't have the other two things, you'll never do it. And I remember just like, here, I was just walking the dogs listening to this podcast. I just had to like stop. Cause like it was finally the thing that clicked. Cause I don't, the method is important, but it's not the stuff that lights me up.
Jennifer Moher (31:35.426)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (31:48.773)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (31:52.429)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (31:52.668)
And that's the stuff that I had been teaching for the last five years was method, method. Like even my online course was called All Method No Madness. You know? Yeah, like who knew? But it always felt hollow. And so it's like when I heard that and I had already been like shifting my practice, but like not, I didn't.
Jennifer Moher (31:59.988)
No.
Jennifer Moher (32:03.959)
That's so funny. Yeah
Dave Moss (32:12.328)
believe in it. I was like scaring myself of like, I really wanna go into the mindset and the value and the vulnerability and everything, but do people need that? And when he said that, I was like, okay, good. Thank you, universe. Like you put this in front of me.
Jennifer Moher (32:22.754)
Yeah.
Absolutely. Isn't it just so, it's like magical when you get that permission, like when you get that external permission, whether it's from a person or a podcast or even just your own thought, it's just like, everything just expands and you just blow up and it's like, all right, here we go. There's, there's no turning back at that point, right?
Dave Moss (32:44.821)
Yeah.
No. Well, and this ties into something that you had made a post, I think it was yesterday, about taking up space. And that, by the way, gave Abby a little permission for something that she wanted to do, take up some space. But it's also something, like, primarily my client base are women, and I always want them to take up more space because I see that being...
Jennifer Moher (32:53.868)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (33:10.912)
It's like, oh, you would have the success that you want if you just took up space. And I always joke to them, have the confidence of a mediocre white man. But can you talk a little bit about taking up space and what that means and maybe something, things that have worked for you in that?
Jennifer Moher (33:13.887)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (33:20.089)
It's true.
Jennifer Moher (33:25.026)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (33:29.642)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's so fitting because I'm, I'm literally in the process of writing this presentation, which is about that. So this is great. It's very much in the forefront of my mind, but, um, yeah, the reason why I even came up with this was I was thinking about, okay, I'm going to this. This big conference, I'm going to speak in front of a big audience. And so I was reminiscing and thinking back to the first.
conference that I attended and it was about 10 years ago. It was the Canada photo convention in Vancouver. And I remember sitting in the audience and watching, uh, Jonas Peterson and who else was there. Maybe like Sam heard, like it was, you know, the, the big names of 2013.
Dave Moss (34:13.732)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (34:16.042)
And I was so awestruck. I just was like, wow, it's Jonas Peterson. And I remember having a conversation with him and being like, Jonas Peterson, just talk to me. I was just, it's so funny. But thinking back and looking at that, when I think about my work, it's not like my work is any different.
today than it was back then. Like the skills, the foundations are all kind of still the same. It's the mindset that has completely shifted and the taking up space. And so that's kind of what I wanted to create a talk around was that, yes, the foundation is important and, you know, but most people who are attending these big conferences, they've been in it for five, six years at the time of attending. And so their foundation is already solid. They've, they've got that. It's just,
Dave Moss (34:39.508)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (35:07.684)
they need the permission and the mindset shift. So one of the things that I talk about a lot, and I've been saying this for years, I used to always say, oh, okay, like I need to celebratize myself. And it sounds shallow and it sounds very Kardashian of me, and it's not meant to be. But it's an energetic sort of mindset practice of taking up space where it's like.
Celebritizing yourself isn't about like vanity. It's not about, um, arrogance. It's just about putting yourself out there in a way that like might even feel a little bit cringy in the moment where you're like, Oh God, I'm doing this. I'm going to make a promo video of myself, but that's, that's the act of celebrities. Right. It's like you, you go and get professional headshots taken and, and you look impressive and you know, like professional, and then you spend money on getting a nice website. Like those are the basic.
celebrities.
You know, even the energy you put into writing your bio, you know, it's like, are you playing it small? Are you like, Oh, I really like taking photos. Or are you, are you kind of taking up a little bit more space in that sense? Right? Like talking about your accomplishments, your achievements, it's okay to celebrities yourself in that way. And then the idea of celebrity energy. And this is something that has become a little bit more popular with Tik Tok lately. A lot of people take
Dave Moss (36:10.912)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (36:36.624)
but it's just, it's honestly, it's a mindset and it's an openness. And there's a reference that I heard someone speak about going to the gym. And as a woman going to the gym, you experienced lots of different things as a woman in a gym. And a lot of it has to do with the energy that you're putting out there. So she was talking about.
walking in with like Beyonce energy versus walking in with like very closed off energy versus walking in with say Kardashian energy. So the, the difference being the Kardashian energy is like, come talk to me, come look at me. Like I'm here to chat with you, like just very on. And you could, you could reference this with, with even like if you're single and you're putting your energy out there, it's like.
Dave Moss (37:17.78)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (37:24.602)
you are going to either attract or repel or intimidate with this energy. And so it's just a playful way of, of practicing this. So sometimes I do it in the grocery store and I'll switch on and be like, okay, which energy am I going to radiate in this moment? Um, and so sometimes it's the like, look at me, but don't talk to me energy.
Dave Moss (37:49.428)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (37:51.514)
This sounds absurd, I know, but it's a good practice. Okay. Other times it's a like, don't even look at me, I'm invisible energy, which I use a lot, especially in the grocery store. Or other times it's the really bubbly open, like Taylor Swift energy, where it's just like, I'm here, like, who wants to have a chat? Like, those bananas look ripe, how you doing? You know, it's just like, I don't know, you can, you can,
Dave Moss (37:53.224)
This does, I'm loving this. I'm drinking this in, keep going.
Jennifer Moher (38:21.354)
between those energies and practice putting them on and jumping into those energetic suits or outfits, right? And I think the more you get into that, the more you can just embody it and switch it on when you need to, switch it off when you don't need to, and that's what celebrities do. You see celebrities go on talk shows. They're not being their true, authentic, naked selves. They're still playing a bit of a role, even though it's...
there is an authenticity to it as well. So yeah, I don't know. That's one massive element to it for sure. Ha ha ha.
Dave Moss (38:59.14)
So what would you say to somebody, hypothetically named Dave, who's bad at this, right? Because like I've known this, I've been coaching now for five years and I love it. I always say if my calendar was filled every day with three to four calls, I would just be the happiest person. But I don't like taking up space. I've never wanted to be, I always found it a little...
maybe this is my own stuff that I need to talk to my therapist about, but I always found it a little like cringy and inauthentic when you see people out there who are coaches, educators, whatever, and they have this persona of authority without the vulnerability.
Jennifer Moher (39:37.86)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (39:45.655)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (39:45.68)
So it's like, you're only getting the like, I know everything energy. And I've always just like, just like I don't like, you know, alpha dude energy or whatever. Like I've always disliked that. And I know there's a lot of photographers out there who like, I see these things to them and you know, I'm not practicing what I preach. And what I often hear back, you know, what if my achievements are too small? Or what if, you know, this or what if that like.
Jennifer Moher (39:49.678)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (39:53.515)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (40:04.373)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (40:11.352)
what was that practice like or what would you say to somebody who needs to step into that energy and
Jennifer Moher (40:17.246)
Yeah. I mean, okay. First of all, like going back to what you said about the, the men that you see on say like tick tock or, you know, just giving this advice, it's like, it's not like you're actually sitting and watching every single video that they create. You've scammed by it. It's not for you. So you swipe. And so just understanding that that's what's going to happen. If someone doesn't like what you're putting out there, they're just going to swipe past it.
and the people who do like it. Because if you go to these men and read their comments, there's a lot of people that are just eating it up. And not that that's a good thing, but the people who are meant for you will find you, and the people who are not meant for you will leave. And that's such a basic concept. I mean, you know that, and I know that you teach that. I mean, that's one element is just getting past that.
Dave Moss (40:59.303)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (41:06.386)
getting past the two girls in the front row because that's the concern is like, what will people think of me? Am I just being self-indulgent? Am I looking arrogant? You know, and all of those thoughts came into my head when I started the, the wondrous podcast, I was like, is this just self-indulgent? Like, is this just like me getting on a platform and, and speaking? Um, and I think it's okay to question those things. Like, I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think.
That just makes you even more beautiful and authentic because you're, you know, you are a bit worried about that. So owning that I think is, is another element to it. But I mean, trusting, like when people tell you that they like what you're doing and what you're saying and the actions you're taking, just believing it and just carrying on. And also the fact that like life is just a big, like, this is just one big, like beautiful experience. And at the end of the day, who cares? Like,
If it all fails, you move on to something else. I don't know. It's like, it's all just a bit of a game and just a fun, playful experience. So why not just take up a bit more space? If people are wanting it, then why wouldn't you? I don't know. That's always been my mindset with all of it.
Dave Moss (42:34.677)
Yeah. And I think that's a really, really healthy mindset too, because I always say to my clients, the only unique thing about your business is you. And so if you don't show up.
Jennifer Moher (42:37.303)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (42:46.568)
What else? It's just on the photos or it's just on the dress designs or it's just on the graphic design or it's just on the DJ website that you have or whatever. If your presence is not on there, then what's the point? So take up the space, have some fun with it.
Jennifer Moher (42:46.73)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (42:56.737)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (43:01.802)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think people get stuck in the like, okay, but how, like it's, it's all well and fine to, to be like, take up space, but like, what is that? What does that actually look like tangibly? Like what, what are the things? What, what is something you could do right this second to take up space? And so I was actually talking to Dustin about this because Dustin is, he does not want to take up space. Like he's.
Dave Moss (43:08.627)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (43:27.938)
very, he's the one of the most talented men I've ever met in my life. Like he's just so beautiful inside and out. He can build anything. Like he's, he's such a man. Like I'm just like, oh my God. Like, but he's so, he's so humble about it.
He won't talk about any of his achievements. He won't talk about the fact that he, you know, he went to Emily Carr and practiced art at Emily Carr and he's been doing art painting pottery for the past 20 years of his life. He doesn't put that out there. Um, and he, he plays it small. So now that we've got this pottery shop and he's, he's got his studio and he's making his pottery. I was chatting with him last night and he's like, okay, but like
Okay. So what do I do? Like, I don't want to, I don't want to be like one of those guys who's just like showing off and that's always the fear, right? The self-intelligence. Um, so one of the tangible things I said to him was like, I mean, there's so many people that are watching his videos, watching him create and probably have questions because he is an expert in his field, whether he believes it or not. He is an expert and there's always people who are, uh, less skilled than him that are looking up to him saying like, I wonder how you do that.
Dave Moss (44:26.3)
Yep.
Jennifer Moher (44:49.226)
So even just posting a video as he typically does and just putting one of those like stickers on Instagram that says, ask me anything, just that it's like such a simple thing, but just that is one little way that you can just take up a bit of space and have a step into that sort of celebrities. Without it feeling Kardashian, you know, it's just like, Hey, like I have some knowledge.
Do you want to know anything? You're, you're serving people in that sense. It's, it's not self-indulgent. So that's, that's one thing that I think anyone could do.
Dave Moss (45:26.212)
Yeah, but what if, okay, so I'm just gonna play, I'm just gonna play my own devil's advocate here because this thought popped into my head. What if nobody asks anything?
Jennifer Moher (45:28.191)
Hehehe
Jennifer Moher (45:36.37)
You ask yourself, just type it in. No one will know. I mean, you have to, how do you think the Kardashians became famous? Like, it's not like people were all of a sudden just like, Oh my God, they're amazing, like they had to put in that, that backend effort. Um, they were like, nobody socialites who just, you know, became who they are, but they had to do that work. And so you're still providing knowledge. You're still serving.
Dave Moss (45:58.217)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (46:02.87)
If you can't, if no one's going to ask you anything, no one's going to know if you type in your own question. Man, I've done it so many times when I'm trying to sell, say a workshop or, you know, whatever it is, presets or anything. I'll say, ask me questions about this and I'll type in the directed questions that I want people to know the answer to. I'll just throw them in there and be like, all right, if no one's going to ask the right question, I will. And
Dave Moss (46:23.7)
Hmm
Dave Moss (46:29.384)
and then it creates momentum. Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (46:30.718)
Absolutely. And nobody knows the difference. And they're still getting, they're still receiving information. You're still serving. No one has to know the behind the scenes. I mean, they do now. But sure.
Dave Moss (46:43.392)
Yeah. But I think we all know it though, right? Like it's one of those things where of course, of course that's happening. And of course that's happening. And it's just a matter of kind of getting over yourself. Right? Like we all know that marketing is performative. Like nobody out there is marketing for altruism except for maybe like...
Jennifer Moher (46:50.86)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (46:55.998)
Absolutely.
Jennifer Moher (47:01.238)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (47:06.232)
green piece, I don't know, but for the most part it is. We're all trying to sell something, we're trying to connect in a way, and everything else like that, and so it's just like just get over the fact that it's performative and perform. Because I see that so much with people that I work with, creatives that I work with, where they're like, well I don't want to, I'm uncomfortable that it would if nobody responds, or what if that? I'm like, yeah, but what if somebody does? Like, what if you really impact somebody and find a way to do it that's like
Jennifer Moher (47:08.237)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (47:21.388)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (47:30.734)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (47:35.432)
less icky, you know, ease yourself into it. It's like getting into a hot tub. Like you can start with just your feet and then go from there and ease your way into it. But it's such an interesting process.
Jennifer Moher (47:41.119)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, it is. And the cringy sort of concept, that's just it's coming from a place of judgment. It's coming from a place of self-judgment. And when we judge others for being cringy, it's just our own self-judgment. It's like this, like, ooh, I wouldn't do that. It's like, OK, well, so this person is, and they're probably making bank. Just do it. Who cares? I did a promo video back in like.
Dave Moss (47:59.791)
Oh yeah.
Dave Moss (48:09.985)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (48:14.282)
Oh man, I don't even know, like 2012? It's the cringiest promo video I've had. Like, I'm gonna send it to you. I don't know if you can like throw it in, if this is gonna be a video, throw it in. I don't care. It's so bad. But the whole thing was like, I wanted to, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was,
Dave Moss (48:23.716)
Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Jennifer Moher (48:37.362)
And so I think the opening, it's got like this music that I got off of Musicbed and it's, though text says you are about to see an engagement session, bye. And then my logo comes up, Jennifer Mohr. Like it's just so cringe. And then it's like me and I'm high-fiving my assistant. Like it's so cheesy. But then at the end, it's like, you know, the logo comes up again and it's just this like very commercial, magical thing. I booked so.
I booked 64 weddings that year. Like, it works. It doesn't matter. Like, why not? I would rather do that. I would rather be super cringy and make a living and feed my family and afford the lifestyle that I want than sitting back being really cool and not doing any of the cringy things but not making any money. Like, I don't know. That's just how I feel.
Dave Moss (49:08.208)
Yeah. It, it totally. Yeah.
Dave Moss (49:32.72)
No, but I think that's a, you've nailed it 100% because oftentimes the people who come to me and they're like, I need more clients, I need more work, I need this, I need that. And I ask them, but what are you doing for it? Oh, I have a newsletter I send out once every three months.
And it's like, it's not gonna work. You have to put yourself out there. You have to sell. And you don't have to, it doesn't have to be a promo video or it doesn't have to be this, or it doesn't have to be do, but it's like, you have to do it. Find a way, find the path of least resistance to really, really get yourself out there and something that works and then use that momentum. And all else fails, steal like an artist. If you see somebody else that's doing something that's working, take it, make it your own. Don't copy exactly like it is.
Jennifer Moher (50:07.724)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (50:20.274)
If you do want to copy it, ask permission. You know, but whatever. But like, if you don't know how to do it, then there's a million models out there. But find the reason why you want to do it. Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (50:22.679)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (50:29.198)
Absolutely.
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think, I think a lot of people too, I think we've talked about this. They need to get clear on their values and understand what those values are, because I think there's a lot of people that enter industries like, like photography and they're just sort of like splashing around grabbing at, you know, Oh, well, I need this and I need, I need to sell this and I need to make this and I need this much money, but no one really is, is grounded in knowing like why.
Or what's the goal? Where are we going? What direction are we headed in? They're just, it's, I just envisioned like a fish flopping around on dry land. Like just like, I don't know, like it just feels very chaotic. And I think if you know the direction you're going, if you understand your values, it's so much easier. Everything else just kind of falls into place at that point. Doesn't it? Yeah.
Dave Moss (51:24.176)
Yeah, yeah, it's a concept of ready fire aim, right? Like you can't do the aim part last. And I use this analogy with a lot of my clients. It's like you're standing there with all of this potential. You've got a bow drawn and you're just, you're holding it and your muscles are getting tight and your muscles are getting sore, but you don't know where you're gonna put that arrow. And so you have to do that first.
Jennifer Moher (51:29.474)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (51:36.364)
Mmm.
Jennifer Moher (51:41.195)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (51:45.228)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (51:45.572)
It drives people crazy sometimes when they come to me and they're like, okay, I need more clients. And I'm like, okay, I want you to tell me what your, if everything goes right for the next five years, what's your perfect day in five years? And they're like, how is this relevant? And I'm like, it is the most relevant thing because it's a difference between, do you wanna shoot, you know, a hundred family sessions a year?
Jennifer Moher (51:58.923)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (52:05.707)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (52:05.94)
for $100 or do you want to do 20 a year for $5,000? Like what does your life look like? What do you want to do? What are your values? What matters? Who do you want to work with? The number of times I've had people come to me, I don't want to work with wealthy people because they're all bad. And I'm like, well, that's a belief system that we need to completely change because that's not true. People, people are good. There are assholes who are broke and there are assholes who are rich. So let's talk about that and let's unwrap that
Jennifer Moher (52:12.205)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (52:21.25)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (52:25.815)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (52:31.05)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (52:36.222)
Yeah. It's so true. It really does just simplify everything, doesn't it? Like it takes it from this like feeling of like a vortex of like, there's just so much going on to just like a straight path. It's, it's amazing. Yeah.
Dave Moss (52:49.372)
Yeah, yeah, but it's the thing that we all fight, you know? Like when, for years I was like, until I took my coach training, I always just wanted to skip to the success. I'm like, just tell me, give me a spreadsheet or a flow chart or whatever, I will follow these steps and it will work. And it never did, because this all wasn't the line.
You know, and you can, you can work yourself to death and get nowhere because you're not, you know, you're just running in circles or whatever. And so it's, it's a hard thing to teach that this is the important step.
Jennifer Moher (53:27.722)
Yeah, it's so true. And, and sort of, um, similar, but not, I was kind of in the same boat where. I was building up my skills and I was putting myself out there and like very boldly just like, here I am world. But I was throwing myself into every single direction because I had no idea of what my values were, where I needed to go.
Dave Moss (53:47.348)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (53:51.342)
I was, I was almost latching on to other people's value systems and other people's goals. So I would see, yeah, other people's goals. And I'd be like, Oh, okay. Well, they want that. So I should want that.
because I'm in the same industry as them. And it wasn't until probably sobriety, probably four years ago where I was like, oh no, I actually just want like a really quiet life. I don't want to travel the world. I don't want to, like, I just want like, you know, 10 weddings a year. I want a very simple life in my lovely little home. I want a garden. I just want to like talk to people and help people. And that's, yeah, that's it.
It just, it made everything so much easier. Everything fell into place at that point.
Dave Moss (54:35.78)
Was it a lightning strike or was there a process that led you to that?
Jennifer Moher (54:40.33)
It was a very slow process. It was nothing in my life has ever really felt like a lightning strike. It's all been almost like a Rubik's Cube, where it's like, slowly things are shifting. And then finally, it's like, oh, there it is. We're here. But no, it's been a very long, long process. And I think I've had to unlearn a lot of things as well, as far as life and goals.
Um, growing up with my parents, they, and we've recently had this conversation, so they will be very okay with me sharing this, but we grew up moving from house to house to house and my parents would buy houses, renovate them, flip them. And then we'd
Dave Moss (55:14.761)
Hehehe
Jennifer Moher (55:24.31)
buy something else and we'd make it better and then we'd sell it and then we'd move on to something else. And that was what I grew up with at the age of 13. I had already lived in 13 houses. So I would see this process of starting from nothing, building something up, making it amazing, and then we offload it and we move on to the next project. And so I mean, if I have ADHD, it's probably due to partially due to that. Um, but.
I think I've had to, there was an element of sort of like, maybe not so much on my parents' part, but just what I viewed of the keeping up with the Joneses and you know, okay, we're moving up. With every house we flipped, it was like we moved into something bigger and better, bigger and better every time. It was like climbing a ladder essentially. And I fell into that.
Dave Moss (56:01.92)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (56:15.122)
years and years ago before sobriety, I was very much like climbing that ladder. And I was like, okay, I need to live in the West end of our, of our town. And this is the type of house I need to live in because that's what you're supposed to do at this age. And I just had these weird beliefs around progress and what progress was. I thought it was, um, more and you know,
Dave Moss (56:36.425)
Hmm
Jennifer Moher (56:42.222)
profit and I thought that was progress and I think it's different for everyone. But what I very quickly realized was that wasn't what I wanted. So it was, uh, yeah, I went into a lot of debt figuring that out and yeah, switching houses and now I'm, I'm in a place where it, it makes more sense now, which is great.
Dave Moss (57:07.584)
Do you look back on that process of progress fondly? Obviously, probably the journey itself wasn't enjoyable, but one of the questions I love asking people is what's a favorite failure? Because I think things happen for us, they don't happen to us. Is there regret in that, or is it gratitude in that process?
Jennifer Moher (57:20.26)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (57:25.087)
Mmm.
Jennifer Moher (57:34.002)
I think there's gratitude now. I think there was regret. Um, there was guilt, there was shame. Like there were a lot of feelings around. Like mistakes made as far as even just like financial mistakes. Um, you know, like I moved out of this, this one house that we were in and.
It was this, the most beautiful century home. It was downtown. It was like the coolest place. We got it for so cheap. We got it for $297,000 back in. I don't even know what year this was like 2016, maybe. And it was a five bedroom, hundred year old house. Like, are you kidding me? It was amazing, but the kitchen wasn't very big. And so I was like, no, we need to live in the West end. We need a big kitchen. We need two car garage. Like I just.
Dave Moss (58:15.124)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (58:20.742)
all of the things that I thought that I needed because of my own upbringing. And so we offloaded this beautiful gem of a house to the suburbs to shift to the suburbs. And it just, yeah, it just, that was one of the things where I was like, I should have never done that because now that house is worth like well over a million. But yeah, there's, there's mistakes, but I see them all as, as learning lessons, everything.
Dave Moss (58:38.949)
I'm sorry.
Jennifer Moher (58:48.646)
All of the negative things that have ever happened in my life is all just, I can see the lessons in all of it now. Um, and again, I think sobriety has been really beneficial in healing that and figuring that out. Um, and, and I think we are not the same person today as we were two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago. It's like,
I often wish that I could go back and like find people that used to be in my life and just be like, Hey, I'm not that person anymore. FYI, like I promise I'm different now. You know what I mean? Whether it's like exes or just old friends or acquaintances, business people, like anyone, I just, yeah, it's just so letting go of those old versions or old iterations of ourselves is a weird process in itself, isn't it?
Dave Moss (59:27.353)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (59:44.428)
Oh, it totally is. Abby and I actually have been talking a lot lately where we feel like we're on our second marriage now.
Jennifer Moher (59:45.709)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (59:52.488)
because we're not those people anymore, because we've done the... we've really grown through it and everything. And just speaking it out loud allows us so much forgiveness and so much growth, like, and forward momentum. And I think it's a really beautiful conversation, and I think that more people need to be aware of... I think we all know that people change, but we don't forgive.
Jennifer Moher (59:55.072)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:00:20.74)
as easily, especially if someone, we feel like someone wronged us or anything else like that. It's like we just, it's like they're gone, you know, they're out of my life, toxic behavior, toxic person or whatever, but then we give them no ability to, to re-prove themselves. Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:00:24.983)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:00:31.947)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:00:39.455)
Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, it's like, what's the quote about everyone has their own version of you inside of their head, and it's different from who you actually are? It's like, I think about that often. That used to keep me up at night, because I was so consumed with what other people thought of me. And now I'm that I don't care at all at this point. I'm just like, I am who I am. Sorry you knew that version of me, but.
Dave Moss (01:00:46.781)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (01:01:06.402)
Yeah, yeah, I think it's like, you know, they say, what is it in your 20s? You're so obsessed with other people with how you wanted the people to see you in your 30s, you are starting to worry about how you see yourself and then the 40s you realize that no one ever saw you in the first place and it doesn't matter, you know, like
Jennifer Moher (01:01:07.061)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:01:23.349)
It's so true. We're all just so consumed with our own little bubbles and our own lives. Are you in your 40s now?
Dave Moss (01:01:28.308)
Yeah, yeah. I am, yeah, yeah. I turned 42 this year, I'm an old man. Ha ha ha.
Jennifer Moher (01:01:34.066)
Oh man. Yeah, I just turned 39, so I'm... Yeah, I'll be there in the zone of no one cares about me.
Dave Moss (01:01:43.728)
Yeah, it's just like, it's a real, giving no fucks is a real relief in life. And it's not that like people don't think of you, but it's just like, we think so much of ourselves and we're so much in our own journey. And you know, that thing that you do where you lie awake at night and relive an embarrassing moment.
Jennifer Moher (01:01:48.17)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:02:04.856)
I actually went to a coffee with a friend not too long ago and I said, you know, I was thinking about this thing that happened and I've been embarrassed about it for years and they said to me, I don't even remember that. And just the release of that. I'm like, oh, that's probably 90% of the things in my life that I have obsessed over. Like to them, it was nothing.
Jennifer Moher (01:02:17.118)
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:02:27.278)
Totally. Yeah, God, that's so true, isn't it? That's such a great lesson. Just that in itself is amazing. It's funny having a, I have a 16 year old, almost 16 year old and that's a big thing is like.
Like that is the all consuming thought is like everyone's looking at me. Everyone's thinking about me. Everyone's looking at me. And so I think that's actually helped me kind of shift out of it. Cause I'm like, no, they're not like I tell her that every day. So it's like, I'm indirectly telling myself, but even, even to the point of like, when I drop her off at school, I've got to drop her off like.
Dave Moss (01:02:49.972)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:03:06.978)
at a certain space. Like there's like, yeah, like, and she can't sit in the backseat because if she was seen getting out of the backseat of the car, like that would be embarrassing if her younger sister was in the front seat. Like it's just all these weird rules that as teenagers we make for ourselves. So that's been fascinating. Just watching that. It's it's I think it's been healing in a sense for myself because I'm just like, Oh God, like was I like that? Yeah, totally.
Dave Moss (01:03:07.604)
Down the block, yeah.
Dave Moss (01:03:25.211)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:03:32.976)
Yeah, and of course you were, we all were, you know, yeah, and then realizing how little that shit actually mattered.
Jennifer Moher (01:03:37.287)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think taking that approach into our businesses now, you know, where it's like, who cares if you, if you write. I think everyone's really consumed with like writing the best caption or, you know, the best image and what's the best time to post and it's like, who cares? At the end of the day, like I, I don't want us to come to a timeframe of an algorithm, like I'm just not going to.
I usually post really impulsively, like I'll be in the bath and I'll be like, Oh, here's a thought that I'm having. And I'll just write something and find a photo in my camera roll and post it. And it's extremely impulsive. It's not methodical. And I like it that way. Like I don't, and I'm not going to do the whole like, Oh, you gotta, you've gotta be in the app for 30 minutes before you post and engage, and then you've got a post and then you have to spend 30 minutes after and you still have to engage. It's like all these rules. I'm like, what?
Dave Moss (01:04:34.056)
But you did that for a while, didn't you? Because I learned that from you. Ha ha.
Jennifer Moher (01:04:38.13)
Sure. I did. I followed some of those rules for a while. I was in, I have like a point in my life that I call like the hustle. Um, time frame where, yes, I hustled and I fell victim to all of those things. But now I think having another child, because my youngest is almost three. That's really shifted things as well. Um,
Dave Moss (01:04:48.48)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (01:05:05.398)
and maybe age getting a little bit older where I'm like, I don't care anymore. Um, if, if people are going to find your art, they're going to find your art. If you're posting consistently, like that's the thing is like just post every day, who cares what time it is, who cares what you're saying? You don't have to live inside of an app. Um, just post your art.
I be, be good at it, you know, like improve your skills daily shoot. It's like all those things that are so simple. It's the foundations that people are kind of missing. You know, it's those, it's those, those base foundations of like, are you actually picking up your camera and shooting every day? Cause most people aren't there. They go to their weddings, they shoot. And then they post images, they expect a whole bunch of responses and then they wait another two weeks and then they go to their next wedding, but they're not.
Dave Moss (01:05:36.5)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:05:56.086)
In the process of practicing and improving and growing and just doing it for fun and play. And I think when you're in that mode, that does create that stress and that aggravation of like, no one's seeing my post. I need to boost my engagement and just all the, the chaos of it. It's just so silly. I mean, it's an app and it could be gone tomorrow. We're putting so much of our energy into this. It's like, I don't know.
Dave Moss (01:06:18.428)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:06:23.274)
It seems a bit silly. Just all seems silly.
Dave Moss (01:06:26.82)
Yeah, but I think people want to have that game because of fear. It's coming from a place of lack and a place of fear and not from a
place of creation. Like when I finally realized that I wasn't a photographer, the amount of relief that gave me, because I was a person who only picked up a camera when we went and shot a wedding and you know I'd go to all these conferences and I'd see all these people who you know like Gabe McClintock's got his new Leica and Ben and Aaron Christman are rounding around taking photos every day of everything and all of this and these were the people that I was seeing succeed in that space and I'm like
but that's not like, I don't find joy in that. And then I found coaching and I'm like, oh, I'm like, I'm constantly researching, constantly learning, constantly helping people. And that's the, like, that's my picking up my camera every day is doing that. And then now I talk to photographers and, you know, I have this one.
Jennifer Moher (01:07:04.981)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:07:13.292)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:07:20.572)
past client and they were absolutely lovely and they didn't have a personal project. They beat themselves up all this like, I don't pick up my camera all the time. And I'm like, but you do because I've seen the photos you take of your family and I've seen the photos you take of your daily life. And they're like, oh, well, no one cares about seeing that. I'm like, you're a family photographer. You're literally doing what other people wish they could is having this documentation. So just, just post that. What do I say? Don't say anything.
Jennifer Moher (01:07:40.685)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:07:46.306)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:07:47.772)
Put emoji under it. It doesn't matter. It's just about finding joy in what you do and not needing to be a thing. Who cares if it gets won like? Be proud of it.
Jennifer Moher (01:07:55.294)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I totally agree. I love that. It's such good advice. I wish that I had that advice 10 years ago, you know, because I think there was so much the education world was all about the hustle and all about the growth in that sense.
Dave Moss (01:08:05.709)
Oh, me too. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:08:15.12)
Yeah, yeah, I think the 2010s, like that's going to be the legacy of that decade is hustle culture and how exhausting it was. And in some ways, I take this with a grain of salt, the pandemic was the best thing to happen to entrepreneurs because it forced a lot of people to gain perspective very quickly.
Jennifer Moher (01:08:19.562)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:08:33.554)
Yeah, that's so true. You know what? I always forget that when I'm speaking about like, Oh, all these holistic experiences and whatnot. But I think you're absolutely right. That's such a huge factor that goes overlooked, you know, but it was so impactful. Like, wow. Yeah, I think that was that was definitely where I realized that I didn't want to be
Dave Moss (01:08:49.159)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (01:09:00.226)
photographing as many weddings. Like I wanted to be able to focus on, you know, 10 a year and really kind of pamper those clients and focus more on just a smaller amount. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:09:15.956)
Yeah, yeah, it forced a lot of people to stop and take a breath and take stock. Like the number of photographers I know that went from 30, 40, 50 weddings a year to 10 to 15 a year after that. And they're now like, oh, my marriage is better. My life is better. Everything else. That's like, yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:09:26.348)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:09:30.243)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:09:34.374)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The amount of joy that I feel in my life, like hourly minute, like minute by minute, like I just feel so abundant and joyful. And it's like, yeah, that's it's just from curating based on exactly based on COVID and reassessing everything. That's so true. That's so cool. It's funny because I never, I never thought that I'd want to spend my days just sitting in a storefront, sitting in a shop.
Dave Moss (01:09:57.044)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:10:04.847)
And now I'm like, I love it. Like I sit in this little pottery shop and I'm like, I'm so happy here. I'm so joyful here. Like it just, it brings me so much. It's so great. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:10:17.749)
Yeah, yeah. Reconnect with like what actually lights you up. Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:10:22.506)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's so, it's so hard to find. And it's, I mean, this, that I feel like saying this all comes with the added sort of.
I need to almost preface it by saying like, obviously I've been doing this for 15 years. So I've built up enough of a base where it's very easy for me to just get these 10 weddings that I want and charge what I want. And I know that that's not the case for everyone. Like I know that there has to be that work and that consistency and that push. I feel like it's almost like a
privileged thing to say to be like, oh, I can just relax now. I'm very aware that there is work that has to go into getting to this, this point for sure.
Dave Moss (01:11:11.024)
Yeah, but it doesn't have to be 15 years of work. You know, like with some of these lessons, if you're asking yourself the right questions and you're thinking about things in the right way, you know, that hustle period could be two years or three years, it doesn't have to, you know, for us, it was 2019 when we finally turned the tap off. Conveniently, right before the world shut down, you know, we had decided that was gonna be our last year of doing, you know, 20 to 30 weddings in a year. We did...
Jennifer Moher (01:11:13.744)
No, absolutely not.
Jennifer Moher (01:11:19.982)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (01:11:23.735)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (01:11:28.418)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:11:37.824)
29 sunrise engagement sessions that year. We were full on and we decided we can't do this anymore and then the world shut down and gave us that gift. But that was 10 years in. It doesn't have to be that long. If we had that perspective and had these conversations in year three, it could have been a totally different thing.
Jennifer Moher (01:11:45.023)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:11:48.642)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:11:53.485)
Yeah.
No.
Jennifer Moher (01:12:00.062)
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I wish I had thought more about sort of like the business ecosystem and how it can feed itself and sustain itself. And that's something that I didn't think of until literally like this year, where I'm like, I'm just going to actually draw it out. Draw like a map of a business ecosystem and all the little things that I have on the go and how they can all help and feed into each other. And.
I think even just getting clear on that and creating that has allowed me to be able to step back a little bit. And so that would be something that at some point would probably be useful to, to coach others on or, or help people. I'm sure you probably do a lot of that, but it's like, I didn't even realize it was a thing, I just started drawing it out and I was like, Oh, like this, this can sell this and this can feed into this. And like, it all just works together like an ecosystem.
Dave Moss (01:12:41.872)
I do a lot of that, yeah.
Dave Moss (01:12:54.112)
Mm-hmm. Ha ha.
Jennifer Moher (01:12:55.034)
I came to it. I didn't realize. Yeah, that would have been useful.
Dave Moss (01:12:59.24)
But you didn't, yeah, I mean, there's also like the journey that you were on was the journey that you were on. And like, you got to grow so many other things. One of the things that I really admire about the way that you work is like the true, like creative, like you come up with these concepts for your shoots and you really...
Jennifer Moher (01:13:05.195)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (01:13:23.932)
approach it as an artist. I think there's a lot of people out there where this is a job and it's not like they're still creating but it's not like almost a performance. Whereas when I watch you speak and I watch you work and I think back to I think it was this last time you spoke you talked about this mermaid session that you did and I'm just like that.
Jennifer Moher (01:13:34.476)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (01:13:47.68)
Ugh, I can't, my brain doesn't even work in that way. I cannot even fathom it, but I think like that's such a beautiful thing that you do. How did you arrive to that? And then how do you reconcile that with something like a business ecosystem?
Jennifer Moher (01:13:48.75)
I'm gonna go get some water.
Jennifer Moher (01:13:52.455)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:14:05.706)
Yeah. Oh man. Those are big questions. Um, so yeah. So what you're referring to is, um, it's a presentation that I have. I'm actually about to put it online too. So that's great timing, but it's called the art of the narrative. And essentially it, it talks about the process of creating narratives within our work. So rather than just going out and photographing a couple in a beautiful location, we build a story around it and we find the, the metaphor or the subtext.
within the story. And that came to be because of my love and obsession with movies and television and stories and in movie and television. And I have another course online called the cinematic storytelling masterclass, which is all about how as wedding photographers, we can pull from.
examples in film from directors, how they're using story, um, visually and metaphorically and how we can use that in our work and tell better stories. And so the art of the narrative was, yeah, I was feeling burnt out because I was going out into these beautiful locations with beautiful people and then just feeling really bored. Cause it's like, okay, I have my like 30 poses I'm going to cycle through. Then what? Like what's, what's the point?
Dave Moss (01:15:15.772)
Mm.
Jennifer Moher (01:15:22.6)
Like what is this? You know and when you do more like your 30 sunrise sessions It's like I imagine by the 30th one you were like, okay, I'm bored Like I you're just in autopilot and you're just doing the same thing Oh, you're probably going to the same locations and you just kind of are like, oh God this sucks, you know You're just you and not that it sucks because I know that's a terrible thing to say because you're doing something for someone But as an artist it feels a bit Soul sucking, you know
Dave Moss (01:15:50.98)
loses its meaning.
Jennifer Moher (01:15:52.414)
Absolutely, absolutely. You're just a machine at this point. And so I started looking at film and I realized that it was that subtext. It was that deeper meaning that I was really drawn to. So whenever I would watch movies with whoever my partner was at the time, I would be like, what do you think that movie was trying to say? Or I love it when I type in, okay, if I'm in Google and I'm about to type in a movie just to see the trailer or, you know,
see what it's all about. If I start typing the name and then the word explained comes right after. So if it's like whatever film name like Titanic explained, that wouldn't be a thing, but you know what I mean? Like if, if it says explained after I'm like, Ooh, there's going to be some subtext and some deep meaning here. Cool. Um, one recent one I watched was mother. Have you seen that with a Jennifer Lawrence?
Dave Moss (01:16:32.91)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:16:42.46)
I'm aware of it, but I haven't seen it, no.
Jennifer Moher (01:16:45.382)
It was wild. Oh my God, it was so wild.
Dave Moss (01:16:48.296)
But I immediately went to Tree of Life because I remember watching that movie and just being like, what just happened?
Jennifer Moher (01:16:54.518)
Yeah, you know what? I haven't seen Tree of Life yet. I need to watch it. That's on my list. But yeah, there were just so many films where I would watch and I'd be like, Whoa, like it's saying one thing, but it's showing something else. But there's like such a beautiful message underneath it. And so I wanted to create images that kind of had that, you know, or sessions that had that. And so I did it just out of a place of boredom more so than anything. But yeah, I would,
Dave Moss (01:17:16.732)
Mm.
Jennifer Moher (01:17:24.414)
Um, it comes down to wonder and curiosity as well. I would find song lyrics and I'd be like, wow, these song lyrics, they're so meaningful. I was listening to, um, wild horses the other day. I don't know if you are familiar with the lyrics, but it's, it's great. I read the history of it and Keith Richards actually began writing the song, wild horses, it's a Rolling Stone song for those who don't know, but, um, Keith Richards wrote
Dave Moss (01:17:38.665)
Oh yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:17:52.438)
the beginning of it and he was writing it about his child and you know, having to leave his child and always be on the road. And so it was that was how the song was intended and how it started. And then Mick Jagger took over and he was in this relationship at the time. I can't remember who it was with. I can't remember her name, but it was one of those relationships where you love each other so much, but you know, you can't be together and you know, it's not going to work. And so you feel this, this pull to the person, but you know,
Dave Moss (01:18:17.875)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Moher (01:18:22.872)
It can't last. It can't be. And so he took over and did the rest of the song based on that. And if you go through and you read those lyrics now, it's just like, you see it in a whole different way. But I just love that it's the song is not about horses. That is not the song. It's about it's about everything I just spoke of. And so just getting curious about stuff like that.
because I think that is education in itself. It's like the more of that you put into your brain, into your heart, the more you can then pull from that when you go to shoot different sessions. So yeah, that's kinda how I roll. Ha ha ha.
Dave Moss (01:19:01.839)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:19:07.764)
I think it's absolutely fascinating. And I think that's one of the reasons why you've seen the success that you have is because, and you can tell me where I'm wrong here, I'm making assumptions, but is because that you deeply care about the process, not just the output, right? Like I think so many...
creatives, business owners, entrepreneurs, were always thinking about productivity, right? Like, what is the final output of this? Where realistically, it's in the process where the uniqueness and the love and the care and the attention comes from. And right from the first time I met you, you always felt like a photographer, a creative who cared about the process. The journey was almost more important than the destination.
Jennifer Moher (01:20:00.874)
Yeah, that's really nice of you to say. Thanks, Dave. I appreciate that. It's insightful even just to hear from you. I think you're probably right. I do really enjoy. I like the discovery process of even just.
Dave Moss (01:20:00.98)
and
Jennifer Moher (01:20:22.126)
birthing the ideas, so to speak, like having them kind of come, come to be. And I think it's why I've really enjoyed being on the yoga mat lately and having ideas just come to me. Like I've had shoot ideas come to me. They just kind of, it's like they sprinkle down from, from the ceiling and they just like land into my brain and I'm like, Ooh, that's a good idea. And I've been practicing.
concept of gratitude and actually thanking the, my higher self or whoever it is that's sending these ideas, just thanking them. And yeah, again, it's, it's quite weird and flighty, but it's been working and it feels really good.
Dave Moss (01:21:01.984)
Yeah, well, and it seems like, I mean, you're the wonderest. It seems like you're tapped into wonder and curiosity. And I think that's such a powerful thing for, especially for a creative, but for anybody in life, like being open to more things and exposing yourself to as much as possible, it just allows you so much more possibility. Yeah. Amazing.
Jennifer Moher (01:21:26.847)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:21:31.14)
Okay, last question I always ask everybody. What have I missed? We've talked about art, we've talked about taking up space, Chicago, the two girls in the front rooms, celebritiesing yourself, like all of these things. What have I missed in the journey of Jen? What is something that we haven't breached on that has shaped you, got to you, to where you are today?
Jennifer Moher (01:21:36.736)
Yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:21:57.49)
Oh man, I feel like I need to take a pause and actually think about this. Oh my goodness.
Dave Moss (01:22:03.536)
Yeah, take, absolutely take your time.
Jennifer Moher (01:22:17.418)
I don't even know. This will be cut out. Yes, I'm trying to think of anything.
Dave Moss (01:22:24.996)
You leave it in. No.
Dave Moss (01:22:31.38)
Have there been mentors or books or just a random happenstance meeting of a person on the street or anything that is...
Jennifer Moher (01:22:34.787)
Hmm.
Jennifer Moher (01:22:39.746)
Hmm. Yeah. I mean.
There was this teacher that I had when I went to university. And I was in an English class. And I wasn't an English major. I was a psych major. But I would sign up for all of these English classes because of this professor. And he actually ended up being the officiant of my last wedding, the wedding that I had. Not a wedding I photographed. But he was.
He is such a special person. And I remember there was a moment when I was sitting in one of his lectures where it hit me that I wanted to be and embody everything that he was as a person. And I think I was around like 22 at the time when I had this moment of realization. But he had this way of engaging the class.
He was extremely vulnerable. He would just cry. He, he taught a lot of Shakespeare and he would go into these rants and these passionate, you know, conversations. And he'd just start crying about whatever thing he was talking about. And he just wore his entire heart and soul on the outside. And it was so beautiful. And he had this way of. He would ask.
the room questions and someone would answer and the answer, like I'd be listening to someone's answer and I'd be like, no, that person's so off base. Like, what are they talking about? Like I was really judgmental at 22 and this professor, his name, Stephen Brown, he had this magical way of sort of reframing what the person said, making them sound like an absolute genius. He'd, so he'd take that person's sentence and he'd say,
Jennifer Moher (01:24:31.982)
Oh yes, you're right. What? So, so what you're saying is blah, blah. And he would just kind of reword it in a way that was just like so profound that every single person in the room, anytime he asked a question, everyone would have their hands up ready to answer and engage with his lectures. And it was just like, it was pure magic. Like that was, that was a huge, I have goosebumps. I don't know if you can see, but like that man,
changed the course of my life at that age, uh, in the sense that I wanted other people to feel that way when they were in conversation with me. I never wanted someone to feel silly for saying something. I wanted people to feel like they could just be open and share. I wanted to be open. I, at that point, realized that it was okay to cry in the middle of a conversation. It was okay. It was okay to show the goosebumps on your arms to people, like just being vulnerable and open.
and how that can then open up others. I think that was a huge, huge lesson for me.
Dave Moss (01:25:35.84)
That's amazing. How do you use that in your life?
Jennifer Moher (01:25:40.358)
Oh my goodness. I mean, in my personal life, it's, it's been great with relationships and with opening up others and connecting on, on a much deeper level than I probably would have ever felt otherwise. But, and you know, having children teaching kids to open up and connect and just be authentic and be vulnerable. That's, that's been amazing. But with clients, I think it's been
It's been amazing. I mean, especially one-on-one clients. And specifically when I've been working with women, you know, doing more like boudoir type sessions or just solo intimate sessions, I think it is a bit of a superpower. I think if you can open up and be vulnerable, other people open up. And I think that creates better art. You know, if you can create a sense of comfort and ease and
create almost this invisible container that the two of you are in together that they can just be themselves. It's like, that's magic. It's amazing. And why wouldn't we want to do that? Aside from art, it's like, I want to feel the inside of your soul. I don't want to just touch your shell. I want all of it. I don't want to connect. Because that's what's the point otherwise. You know?
Dave Moss (01:26:59.12)
Yeah, I think that's amazing. I feel like that's such like, I don't know if you're a TV watcher other than Angel and Buffy, but...
Jennifer Moher (01:26:59.426)
So that would be it.
Jennifer Moher (01:27:07.613)
Hehehehe
Dave Moss (01:27:08.496)
You know in Ted Lasso there's that Walt Whitman quote, be curious not judgemental. I feel like that's an actual embodiment of living in that way. Where you're just like, you're so engaged and somebody gives an answer that, you know, on the surface may or may not be wrong, but like seeing the wonder and seeing like, I see how you got there and that's so beautiful and let's unpack that and go deeper, yeah.
Jennifer Moher (01:27:32.126)
Yeah, absolutely.
Dave Moss (01:27:35.484)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for this. If people want to find you out there, and I guarantee you after this conversation, they will, uh, where can they find you? Where can they engage with you? Where are you online? I mean, you're a million places gather home goods and Jennifer mower and everything. So where can they find you?
Jennifer Moher (01:27:52.771)
Yeah, I mean, Instagram is the most obvious place that comes to mind. So it's just my name, Jennifer Mohr. It's mother without the T Mohr. So that's where I am. Um, yeah, I have my podcast, the wondrous, it's the wondrous podcast on Instagram and where my friend Jill and I are starting a retreat in Ontario. It's going to be amazing.
It's going to be so good. Like I'm, I'm just so excited to be in it and actually experience all the parts of it. We have a sound bath healing. We have yoga, meditation, a tea ceremony, cold plunging, photography, education, styled shoots. Like it's just, it's blowing my mind. Like as we keep building it, I'm like, this is what I need. Like I'm excited. So yeah, that'll be coming soon. And yeah, that's, that's it.
Dave Moss (01:28:39.626)
Hehehe
Jennifer Moher (01:28:46.678)
Thank you so much. This is, I'm so honored to have had this conversation with you. This has been awesome.
Dave Moss (01:28:52.308)
Yeah, this has been great. I knew it was gonna be good. You know, it's like, you just, there's just people that you know are gonna be so fun and interesting and open. So I just, I really appreciate you taking the time.
Jennifer Moher (01:28:55.191)
Hehehehe
Jennifer Moher (01:29:03.239)
Thank you.