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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
PJ (00:01.918)
Hello and welcome to Chasing Leviathan. I'm your host PJ Weary and I'm here today with Dr. Angela Knoble, Associate Professor of Philosophy at University of Dallas and we're talking about her book Aquinas and the Infused Moral Virtues. Dr. Knoble, wonderful to have you on today.
Angela Knobel (00:18.862)
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
PJ (00:22.142)
So tell us where did your journey with Aquinas and moral virtues start?
Angela Knobel (00:28.59)
So, way back a million years ago when I went to graduate school at the University of Notre Dame, I had my mind made up that I wanted to work on Aristotle, Aristotle's theory of virtue. Because believe it or not, at a Catholic school, you read a lot of Aristotle in undergraduate. And who would've thought that? But I took a class.
PJ (00:48.574)
Okay, who would have guessed?
Angela Knobel (00:56.814)
from the fellow who ended up being my dissertation director on Aquinas. And I was impressed by the amount of things Aquinas had to say about virtue and by the kind of mathematical precision that he tried to get with virtue. I mean, Aristotle has Nicomachean ethics, right? And there's this whole field, virtue ethics, many of whom are...
and many of the people who practice virtue ethics consider themselves Aristotelian. Aristotle doesn't really have a lot to say. Some of what he says seems like super problematic. And the more I write about Aquinas, the more interested I became. I can say more, but that will probably take me into why I ended up writing this book.
PJ (01:45.854)
Well, I mean, I'm happy to hear that too. Why? Why did so why this book? You know, I mean, I know you said that you kind of wrote it and you sat on it, right? Yeah.
Angela Knobel (01:48.506)
Okay. Yeah, no, sure. Yeah, no, no, sure. I mean, as I, one of the things I noticed when I started reading Aquinas is that Aquinas thinks that the most important virtues, in fact, the only virtues that, the virtues that really matter are given you by God. So,
not just faith, hope and love, right? Aquinas thinks that in the moment of grace, you receive courage, divinely given courage, divinely given temperance, divinely given prudence, the whole shebang. And he also thinks the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in you and you get habits that make you amenable to the Holy Spirit moving you. And there's this whole thing, right? And so I was just, I was really interested, it doesn't sound like Aristotle at all.
I mean, for Aristotle, and virtue ethics is huge, and it's huge even in, not just among Catholics, but I would say even more among the evangelical community. But Aristotle's view of virtue is that you do good deeds repeatedly and you create a habit, and then that makes you a good person. And I had never thought about it in spite of going to church every Sunday all my life, but.
The Aristotelian and Canaverci sounds kind of Pelagian. If - should I explain Pelagianism?
PJ (03:21.758)
Well, yeah, I mean, well, I understand why you would say that, but it is like a like plagiarism comes like considerably after Aristotle, right? Yeah. But yeah.
Angela Knobel (03:28.81)
No, of course. No, of course. But I mean, the Pelagius thought that you get into heaven on your own, right? I mean, Pelagius thought that like heaven is ours for the taking. And now, of course, Aristotle is a pagan. Aristotle thinks that goodness means kind of making the most of what you are. Aristotle doesn't have an afterlife in mind. OK. But if you're now a Christian and you're really attracted to Aristotle,
PJ (03:35.486)
Yes, right.
Angela Knobel (03:56.558)
And being a good person means making the most of what you are through your own efforts. Then you have to say, well, wait a minute, where does Christ come in? Like where does grace come in? Where does heaven come in? Are these Aristotelian habits that I'm cultivating, are these the things that are gonna get me into heaven? Because if these Aristotelian virtues I'm cultivating are the things that are gonna get me into heaven, that sounds Pelagian, right?
And if they're not, then what changes, right? I have to apologize. I say right far too frequently. My husband visited my class and he, that was his one comment. He'd just say right way too much. So I apologize. I'll try not to, but.
PJ (04:42.078)
I, you know what? I'm like a California Valley girl. I say like all the time. I mean, I feel like that's more like, you know what I mean? Okay.
Angela Knobel (04:46.124)
Okay, I probably do that. I probably do that too. I probably do that too. But you know, an answer that is often given to the problem I've been describing, right? Is see, there I did it again. An answer to the problem I've been describing is to say, well, look, you cultivate the kinds of dispositions Aristotle was talking about, and then you get grace. And then grace just kind of directs all that stuff to heaven.
Right? So you wouldn't get into heaven without grace, but the things you're working on that Aristotle was talking about, they're like 90 % of it, right? And then just grace just makes those worthy of salvation. And I think that answer is false. And I think Aquinas thinks that answer is false. So that's kind of that, and that's really interested me. And then I got worried about,
So I knew, I've known for a long time, I thought that answer was false. But then thinking about what Aquinas thought and then thinking about what I thought and whether what I thought was what Aquinas thought, that's kind of took me down the road, the very long road that culminated in this.
PJ (06:02.206)
Yeah, I know there's kind of a gap for you, right? Between when you started like working on this and then when you were glad for that, you felt like your thought on that changed, yeah.
Angela Knobel (06:08.366)
Yeah, yeah, it's a long time. It's a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it did. Yeah, go ahead.
PJ (06:16.446)
So I said this earlier when we were first talking, but I'm well aware that right or wrong Protestant and Catholic theology, one of the big differences is Catholic theology, like their definitions are much stricter and clearer, right? So it's like, you know, like, know, virtue is like people who do good things, you know, it's gonna, like, so.
Angela Knobel (06:35.022)
Yeah, that's fair.
Angela Knobel (06:41.58)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, -hmm. Sure, sure.
PJ (06:45.854)
When you say, well, when Aquinas says virtue, what does he have in mind? And then obviously that leads into kind of a big part of the book is this debate about acquired versus infused virtue and supernatural versus natural virtue. And is there a distinction there or is that just a different ways of terming it?
Angela Knobel (06:50.926)
Sure. Sure. Sure.
Angela Knobel (07:03.02)
Yep.
Right. Right. Right.
Well, I prefer, so I prefer to speak of supernatural and natural virtue because acquired versus infused refers to how you got it, right? And so like in theory, God could give me like a natural habit, right? So, I mean, and so,
but I think I'm getting ahead of myself because I think your real question is what's a virtue? And I don't think we can talk about natural and supernatural until we answer the what's a virtue question. So I'm gonna back up. So the key concept, and I wonder if differences with Protestant theology might come up here as well. The key concept in all of this is nature, right? The notion of nature. And what I mean when I talk about nature is the Aristotelian idea,
PJ (07:41.086)
Where it's a virtue and then, yeah, sorry.
Angela Knobel (08:07.086)
but also the Christian idea that when God creates the world, he creates different kinds of things, right? So Aristotle doesn't have a doctrine of creation, right? But he thinks that, you know, there's something that it is to be a tree. There's something that it is to be a human being. There's something that it is. And we'll call that your nature, right? Whatever it is to be a human being or to be a tree or whatever, that's your nature. And Aristotle's big idea is that goodness,
just means becoming most fully what you are. Okay, so I mean, you think it's summer's coming, we're all gonna plant tomatoes, some of our tomatoes are gonna look good, some of our tomatoes are gonna look bad, right? And if we say, oh, well, this is a bad tomato. Well, it didn't become what it was supposed to be. And the good tomatoes, when they're red and don't have any cracks, right? That they look like they're, as Aristotle would say, flourishing, right? That's what goodness is, right?
Goodness is becoming most fully what you in some sense already are. Okay, so that's the notion of nature. Now, some things become most fully what they already are if they're just basically left alone in the right conditions, right? Your tomato plant is just, it's gonna grow and if it gets enough water and stuff, it's gonna produce good tomatoes. But human beings are much more complicated because we kind of play a part.
in whether or not we become most fully what we are. This is why Aristotle develops the notion of virtue. We have to, if we're rational human beings, and for Aristotle, the best human life is the one that exhibits the excellences that rational human beings are capable of. That takes training, right? If you think about piano playing or you think about,
painting or playing a sport. We already have what we need, some of us more than others, to develop those skills, but actually developing them takes practice and training. And Aristotle thought the same is true of our moral life. So whether we all already have what we need to stand up for what is right, defend our society or...
Angela Knobel (10:33.006)
eat moderately, but really becoming the kind of person who can reliably do that requires training. And so when we're talking about virtue, we're talking about a habit which enables us to display the excellences our nature is capable of.
And then we could subdivide that further. We could talk about moral virtues or intellectual virtues and so on and so forth. Right. But virtues are habits that allow us to describe, not to describe, to act in a way that really exhibits the highest and best of what we are. OK. All right. So that's all Aristotle. We're still in Aristotle here. Right. OK. But now, interestingly enough, the Christian tradition,
PJ (11:23.838)
Yes. Yes.
Angela Knobel (11:31.534)
talks about virtue too. The Christian tradition has always been interested in virtue. Both Catholic and Protestant traditions have always been interested in virtue. The difference is whether or not they're willing to pay attention to Aristotle and to the Aristotelian view of nature. Because on the Christian view, the goal of the moral life,
is not to become the best version of what we already are. The goal of the moral life is to get to heaven, to participate in the divine life, to become the adopted sons and daughters of God. And there's a, I think on every view, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think on most views, grace affects a transformation of what we are.
Right? So we're not displaying ordinary human excellences is not what the Christian moral life is about. Right? The Christian moral life is about displaying the excellences that the Holy Spirit dwelling within us makes possible, right? That our relationship with Christ makes possible. And that's a different kind of thing. Still virtue, right? Notice the virtue thing that we define still works. My nature's just been changed.
So now Christian virtue means the habits that allow me to act in ways befitting my transformed nature.
Right? Because grace affects a transformation in what I am. And so it'd be weird if those virtues that allowed me to be the human equivalent of a good tomato were enough to allow me to act in ways befitting the adopted son or daughter of God. Right? And so, is this clarifying anything? Should I clarify? Okay.
PJ (13:44.062)
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I feel a little frustrated with the tomato comments because my tomatoes never turn out right. And I put a lot of effort into them. I like the idea that they just like spring up and just work. It's like really frustrating to me. I'm sure you must have wonderful tomatoes because they keep cutting.
Angela Knobel (13:51.63)
Okay. I know. I...
Angela Knobel (14:00.686)
No, I mean, I feel like people who live in like Nebraska have good tomatoes. People who live in Texas and Florida probably don't have good tomatoes, but anyway.
PJ (14:04.926)
No, no.
I have to water them so much and they still like it's just like they're like the Sun just scorches them. It's so bad. Anyways, I'm sorry. I Know but I am I am yeah, I mean this is I'm very like I'm familiar with this. There are some things that I've written down to to ask about but yeah, that's uh, I do I didn't want to interrupt though before you got to like I mean what makes it a virtue moral, right and then
Angela Knobel (14:10.894)
Yeah, no, I know. We have the same problem. We have the same problem. So.
PJ (14:35.046)
And I think we're you're talking about the acquire you're starting to talk about that acquired infused and the supernatural natural which are Again, not exactly the same. Yeah
Angela Knobel (14:45.038)
Sure, sure. So let's start with the moral virtue thing because that's an important concept regardless of what kind of virtue that you're talking about. So going all the way back to Aristotle, right? Aristotle thinks that some virtues just perfect our rational faculty, right? But we're not just rational, we're not just minds, we're embodied minds, we have desires and appetites. And...
For Aristotle, at least, our disordered appetites can impact our ability to think, right? They don't necessarily impact our ability to do like astrophysics, right? But disordered appetites can impact my ability to think about how I should treat other people or how much to eat or drink or how to live my life.
Right? And so for Aristotle, if my appetites, if my desires aren't appropriately in order, I'm gonna be a bad, a bad reasoner about how I act. Right? And so, and he says that reason doesn't just kind of dictate to the appetites, but it persuades and enjoins them, right?
So there's a kind of political rule. But importantly, it goes in both directions, right? Our reason control helps to contain our appetites. Rightly ordered appetites actually help us think about what I should do, right? So if you want at, you if you at a deep level want, right, appetitively to tell the truth or be faithful to your wife, that's gonna...
That's gonna guide your thinking about how you should act, right? That desire is gonna kinda keep your thoughts about what you should do, who you should hang out with, et cetera. It's gonna keep all that stuff in check, right? So the moral virtues are, properly speaking, appetitive habits, right?
Angela Knobel (17:03.246)
Whereas intellectual virtues are more habits of rational habits. Okay, so so that's one thing.
PJ (17:11.806)
Is there a synonym for appetite, would desires work there as well?
Angela Knobel (17:16.042)
Desires works, passions, people sometimes talk about passions, right? And someone like Thomas Aquinas will distinguish between what he calls like the irascible and the concupiscible. Like there's part of us that like gets angry, right? And tries to overcome obstacles. And then there's part of us that has desires for food, drink, sex, right? And that's the concupiscible, that's the more concupiscible part. Yeah.
PJ (17:18.142)
Passions, okay.
PJ (17:44.638)
Okay, sorry, please continue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angela Knobel (17:46.126)
Okay, so do you want me, so where do you want to go from here? So do you want me to define more? Do you want me to distinguish the natural and supernatural?
PJ (17:55.166)
Do you mind talking? Because I think it's useful for the acquired and infused, knowing where they come from and why that's important for... Because that's the way that quietness refers to it, and then you can explain why you like supernatural and natural. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (17:59.296)
Yeah, sure.
Mm -hmm. Sure. Okay, okay. Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah. Sure, of course. Okay, so distinction between acquired and infused. So an acquired virtue, so you remember the distinction I made between kind of what we are, our nature, and then what we're destined for, right, through grace, right? So for...
Aristotle, as for Aquinas, by nature have the capacity to pursue the fulfillment of my nature. Okay, so if I'm a rational animal, I have what I need to try to pursue the kinds of excellences specific to a rational animal. Right, so I have reason, I have appetites,
that can be, that reason can shape and form. I have an intellect that can be shaped and formed. And even if other people teach me, like I still do the actions that shape and form me, right? So I mean, the analogy with skill, which a lot of people use when it comes to virtue, I think is helpful here, right? Because let's say you're trying to learn the piano.
Right? You have certain exercises that you practice and you maybe have a teacher who's telling you things. But at a certain point, you have to grasp what a chord is, right? Or what playing a certain piece of music involves. And you only get there by doing it, right? By practicing it and trying again and again, right? And that's the notion of an acquired virtue.
Angela Knobel (19:56.204)
It's an excellence that I cultivate in myself through my own power by repeated action. So if I, maybe to take it to the moral level, maybe I realize that I should stand up to the bully on the playground, and it's hard, and I'm scared, and I wanna run away. But by training myself, maybe I can't.
do everything, but by training myself to start standing up, right, and to small things, right, or not running away from, in lesser situations, I can kind of cultivate an ability in myself to stand up for what I know is right. It takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of effort, it probably takes help, it takes mentors, right, but this is really something that I develop in myself over time, right?
So that's what I mean when I talk about an acquired virtue. Right? But notice that you can only acquire virtues.
towards excellences that are within your natural ability. I'm never going to acquire the, I'm never going to, if we go with the skill analogy, I am never, no matter how many times I jump off the roof, going to teach myself how to fly. Like it's just not going to, I'm not the kind of thing that can fly, right? So I can't ever, like there's a limit to the kinds of excellences I can create through my own repeated efforts. And so it,
PJ (21:23.55)
Yeah.
Angela Knobel (21:30.222)
So that's acquired virtue. And you notice that natural virtue, I like the word natural virtue because it's excellences that I develop that allow me to fulfill my nature, right? And typically I do that through my own power. Maybe God could just like make me a wonderful piano player or maybe God could, right? But typically not gonna happen, right? I do it through practice. It's acquired and I can acquire it because that virtue is natural.
It's an excellence that belongs to my nature. Okay, but now let's talk about something like martyrdom, right? So, you know, in the Bible, Stephen, the first martyr, right? He's picked for his faith, right? And to help with the widows and orphans, right? He's bringing food to the widows and orphans and he's filled with faith.
He likes to share his faith. He's brought before the Pharisees, Sadducees, Sanhedrin. Yeah, yeah, right.
PJ (22:40.51)
Yeah, like the the cat the scribes and Pharisees I think is you know, it's kind of like it's all it's it's the classic New Testament baddies. Yeah
Angela Knobel (22:48.082)
Right, right, right. But you know, now here's what he says there and what he does and what he testifies to, right, is not any manifestation of his own personal efforts in moral training, right? He gives witness to his faith, the Holy Spirit, it's very clear in the biblical text, the Holy Spirit tells him what to do.
say, right? It guides him. He's not sort of using some kind of power that he's developed on his own, right? He is, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness to something that he does not fully understand, and he's dying for something that he doesn't fully understand. That's totally different.
Right? I would maintain that, and this is an example that I use in the book. I like this example. When we cultivate natural virtues, right? So we cultivate courage, right? We are developing our ability to stand firm for the sake of something that we fully grasp as good, right? So, you know, the Spartans at Thermopylae.
Persian hordes are coming, they're going to murder and enslave their families and all of Greece. And Leonidas and his men face certain death, right? So that the Athenian Navy can get there. It's huge, it's dramatic. It takes great courage to go to your, to face death under those circumstances, but you get it, right? You understand why that's a good. And...
you can, through much training, develop your ability to stand firm in the face of those Persian hordes. Most of us can't, right? But it's conceivable that you could, right? But contrast that with what Stephen does, right? Stephen believes in this man who said he was the son of God, right? And he's facing death.
Angela Knobel (25:07.79)
right, for what this person that many people think is crazy has preached. The kind of strength that you exhibit when you do that, I would maintain, is a lot different than the strength that Leonidas and his men exhibit when they block the pass at Thermopyla, right? Because you...
Get it, right? You get what you are achieving with your death when you're Leonidas. It's super hard to do. Most people can't, but everybody gets why that's amazing. It's much more difficult to get why what Stephen does is amazing, right? And the desire that moves Stephen to stand up for his faith in the face of certain death isn't any desire you can create on your own. I would go out on a limb and say, right?
Why? Because Stephen is exhibiting the excellence of a nature that has been transformed by grace. Stephen is acting in the way somebody whose nature has been transformed by grace acts when they're acting at their best. Leonidas is acting in the way a human being acts when they're acting at their best. And I think those are two very different things.
PJ (26:31.006)
Um, one, I have a one year old and I have a little girl and I have her, the sad part is I've never even seen the movie. I've just seen like clips like on like, uh, like YouTube shorts, but I have her going around going, Oh, Oh, from like 300 and she enjoys doing that. So that's like my one year old girl. No, she's not seen it. I, I, I made that noise at her and she really liked it. No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Angela Knobel (26:49.486)
Your one year old has seen 300. Wow. Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. I was like, wow, interesting parenting. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
PJ (26:59.646)
It's just really funny to have your one year old daughter like walk up to your wife and go, Oh, like it's just, it's a good, like anyways. Um, so, but, uh, yeah, no, I, um, I'm not planning on training her in the Spartan way. So I'm not like, you know, I'm like, Hey, let me show you like how to, like, this is, this is your exemplar here. Like, this is your excellence you're aiming for. Um,
Angela Knobel (27:14.862)
Okay, good, good to hear, good to hear, good to hear. You haven't taught her the shield wall yet.
PJ (27:26.43)
Yeah, I send her out every morning like go kill an animal or come back on your shield, you know, like one or the other. Yes, that's right. It's really interesting. So
Angela Knobel (27:30.094)
That's right, with your shielder on it. There you go.
PJ (27:47.112)
And forgive me, I like I'm trying to formulate this it's it seems like there's just some You know fundamental differences. That's not a surprise and so I'm trying to understand what your responses would be So I'm not trying to like I'm gonna
Angela Knobel (28:01.038)
You mean with the Christian, we mean with between, because I'm a Catholic versus the Protestant tradition that you're coming out of.
PJ (28:04.134)
Yeah, and Protestant. Well, maybe. Or it could just be because I just don't have the grasp on this. That's also possible. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (28:11.214)
Well, I can speak to one difference if you want me to. Like, I think there is a difference, because I thought about this too. I think, and I don't know which, I don't know a lot about your belief system, but I mean, I do think that one difference is that for Aquinas, as for the tradition that he represents, original sin,
PJ (28:16.926)
Okay. Okay.
Angela Knobel (28:41.266)
impedes and impairs nature but does not completely destroy it. So grace both heals and elevates nature. But now as I understand, I love Calvin, I think he's so interesting, I think he's such a great writer, but as I understand someone like Calvin for instance, nature is just obliterated.
by original sin, right? And now if you think that nature is totally obliterated by original sin, then I think you should find the idea of infused virtue super appealing, but you're not gonna have any patience at all with Aristotle, which actually is what I understand to have happened in the Reformation, right? The Reformation thinkers, there's a really interesting book that is come, that Kyle Strobel at,
Viola and Lucy Peppiet also at Viola are putting together just basically about the notion of infused virtue in the Reformed tradition. I'm probably using the word reformed incorrectly, but in the Protestant tradition, right? So that they're using, you know, that because if you look at Reformation thinkers, what they're allergic to is the notion of acquired virtue, right? The notion that we can get any goodness at all.
by developing our natural capacities. It all has to come from God. But as I read Aquinas, that's kind of true also. Because if you look at someone like Dante, Dante, who's a Catholic, Dante puts Aristotle and Plato and the Greek philosophers who care about natural virtue, he puts them in the outermost circle of hell. It's like limbo.
And because they've done the best of what they have and they still can't get into heaven. They're looking off at heaven with desire, but no hope, right? Because do, and Aquinas has the notion of something being dispositive, right? And so Aquinas thinks that by pursuing our natural excellences, for Aquinas, and I think this might be a difference with some Protestant traditions, for Aquinas, we actually are doing something genuinely good.
Angela Knobel (31:06.51)
because we are making the most of the nature God gave us in creation. And that's good. It just doesn't get us into heaven. But it can be, but it can be dispositive, meaning that it kind of can prepare us for the moment of grace. Although Aquinas's I read him doesn't even think that that dispositiveness, that disposition happens except under God's grace, right? So that like that even God's grace is kind of drawing us.
to prepare ourselves to receive the moment of grace. But so anyway, all of this has been in the context of trying to think about where the Catholic tradition and the Protestant tradition might come apart. And I think different Protestant traditions might come apart to differing degrees. But I don't think, like I think, I mean, it's interesting, Kyle Strabela is doing really interesting work on Jonathan Edwards. And as he reads Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan Edwards is all about infused virtue, right?
And that sounds right to me. And it sounds really interesting. And so I think that the Protestant tradition should be all over the notion of infused virtue. I'm surprised, like if you look at contemporary Protestant writing about virtue, it's very often in the Aristotelian tradition. And I personally, as a Catholic, I find that kind of weird, right? Because, you know, but I think...
PJ (32:15.58)
Hehehehe
PJ (32:27.71)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angela Knobel (32:34.446)
I think the notion of infused virtue is far more compatible. And I think that the reformers saw that.
PJ (32:41.31)
So this actually is really encouraging because I kind of had some thoughts written down here and I think they were on track. So if you don't mind, I'm like, OK. Because to me, one of the things I really wanted to ask about was the difference, why it was very important to say disposition rather than virtue. And part of the reason, and forgive me, this might take just a little bit, but it's just.
Angela Knobel (32:51.982)
Okay, okay, good. No, good.
Angela Knobel (33:03.534)
Yeah. Yeah.
PJ (33:10.206)
just to help me clarify my own head from the my perspective. And again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm just some random dude in central Florida. Like I'm like, I'm like, I'm not speaking for all Protestants here. So maybe I'm just like secretly Catholic, but, but yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. I, I, yeah. I mean, oh man. Anyways, that's, that's a whole other, I was just thinking of like, uh,
Angela Knobel (33:18.54)
Sure, no, of course. Of course.
Angela Knobel (33:24.774)
Everybody is. Everybody is. No, I'm just kidding. That's what I had to say that.
PJ (33:38.27)
the whenever we say the Apostles Creed, I could just feel all the Presbyterians in the congregation go, well, when they say Catholic, right? It's like, um, but, uh, right, right. Right. Um, so, uh, Augustine, and he uses this for his conception of evil, obviously, as he's combating his, uh, old Manichaeism, but he, he prays to God and he thanks God because he's like, everything good comes from you.
Angela Knobel (33:41.356)
Mm.
Angela Knobel (33:45.166)
I know, I know, I know, I know. It just means universal. That's all it means. It just means universal. Okay, so anyway, go ahead.
Angela Knobel (34:01.806)
Mm -hmm.
Angela Knobel (34:07.246)
Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
PJ (34:07.358)
my intellect, my tongue, to speak, all, everything good comes from you. And so, especially in like the, like Protestant world, and this is interesting because it's seeing a resurgence, there's a lot of work done on common grace versus special grace. So, oh, okay. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So common grace is basically when Jesus says, God sends his reign on the just and the unjust, he gives goodness to,
Angela Knobel (34:23.406)
Okay, can you tell me? I'm not aware of that. Yeah. Yeah.
PJ (34:36.702)
everyone. And special graces, I mean it's very similar to the acquired versus infused. So...
Angela Knobel (34:38.158)
Okay, okay, okay.
Angela Knobel (34:43.918)
Okay. Is special grace, is it only given to believers, the elect, those, okay. And, but common graces are given to everybody regardless, elect and non -elect alike. Okay. Okay.
PJ (34:48.862)
Only given to the elect. I mean, we're going straight Calvin here. Yes. Right. Yes. Like, I mean, so you can see why this is what's coming to my mind when I'm reading. Yeah. And so, for instance, when I hear, and I think this might be the total depravity thing, though, like that, the nature is fully broken. Our nature is to...
Angela Knobel (35:01.87)
Sure, no, sure, no, of course. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (35:12.302)
Tulip, yeah.
PJ (35:18.454)
participate in the divine nature. That's our nature, but it's completely broken because our relationship is broken. And so, and this is kind of the way I was reading what you were doing, and I don't even know how much we disagree or we disagree at all. It's really interesting how these kind of parallel each other. There's this idea that, as far as I understood what you were saying, and from my background in theology,
Angela Knobel (35:20.302)
Okay, okay. Interesting.
Angela Knobel (35:26.988)
Okay.
Angela Knobel (35:34.966)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
PJ (35:49.274)
that you have the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness than like first John and so basically like if you're oh if you're not under Christ rule you're in the kingdom of darkness but then you have to explain like Leonidas fighting you know like like yeah Gandhi all these things like well the thing is is that they have whatever good they have comes from God and this is kind of a Augustinian idea of like you can't have pure evil evil is corruption of good.
Angela Knobel (35:55.478)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Angela Knobel (36:00.812)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Right, yeah, sure, of course, yeah, yeah, sure.
Angela Knobel (36:12.374)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Angela Knobel (36:18.19)
Right, yeah, yeah.
PJ (36:19.23)
And so, and this is where the disposition versus virtue comes in. Your ends are obviously, whatever good God puts into the world, your virtues are kind of pointed towards some good. It's like familial affection. I bake bread, I make good bread. This is like, that's the one way. But none of that,
Angela Knobel (36:23.372)
Mm -hmm.
Angela Knobel (36:34.99)
Okay. Mm -hmm. Okay.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
PJ (36:47.934)
puts us towards our nature because we can't have participation with the Trinity until that is fixed.
Angela Knobel (36:49.71)
Okay. Okay. Okay.
Angela Knobel (36:59.694)
But okay, so, and I'm probably, I'm sure that I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. And so the only reason I'm asking, like I'm not attributing this view to you, but I mean.
PJ (37:07.134)
Go ahead. Oh no.
Angela Knobel (37:13.582)
if our needs so.
The nature that we... So it seems like you're taking the word nature and you're saying we have one and only one nature and that is our heavenly nature. And we don't like anything else is just fallen like hugely fallen apart from that. And there could be drags of goodness in it, but...
But it's not the goal, right? Okay, but now, so here, and this is really just a clarifying question. If that's our nature.
PJ (37:51.678)
Yeah, sure.
Angela Knobel (37:58.668)
Are we f -
I'm wondering how it works because like does that on your view?
Do we not have that nature at all until we receive grace?
that makes us co -heirs with Christ? Because, and then do we just not? Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so, but do we have a nature? I guess, do we have a nature? Does Leonidas have a nature? That's my question for you.
PJ (38:21.31)
Yeah, I think like we're dead in our sin. I mean, this is the total depravity thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. So we still have some goods because that's the common grace. Yeah.
PJ (38:38.672)
He has a fundamentally broken nature.
Angela Knobel (38:42.894)
Fundament, so he is a co -heir of Christ.
even though he's never heard of Christ, but it's just in smithereen.
PJ (38:53.278)
No, he is made for that and he is not able to attain that.
Angela Knobel (38:57.454)
Ah, but see, made for and not able to attain is different than having it horribly broken.
Like, I guess so, so, so, so, let me, I'll say it from, so Augustine talks, since we're talking about Augustine, Augustine talks about the notion of a two -fold gift, right? I don't know if you've ever seen this before, but Augustine says that God gives us a gift merely in creating us. Our very creation is a gift, right?
PJ (39:06.43)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead.
Angela Knobel (39:32.318)
And God would be guilty of no injustice whatsoever if God only gave us our created natures and destined us only for being the human equivalent of good tomatoes. Right? But God, through his super abundant goodness, gives us a second, infinitely higher gift, right? Which is the gift of participation in the divine life. Right? And so,
When I talk about nature, I'm talking about that gift given in creation, which brought to, you know, which we should we pursue it through the best of our abilities would only lead to a kind of Aristotelian goodness on earth, right? And so I guess what isn't the piece that isn't fitting into the picture for me,
is like, I think we agree about the further nature, right? I think we, yeah. Yes.
PJ (40:35.55)
So this happened earlier. You talked about our nature changing. And for me, I was like, wouldn't it be restored?
Angela Knobel (40:44.622)
Ah, well, so do you think that... No, I mean, this is a fair, like, this is an honest question.
PJ (40:49.278)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I'm enjoying this. No, this is good.
Angela Knobel (40:57.422)
When you, so do you think that Adam, that the goal is to be like, when you say nature restored, I think, and I'm like restored to what? To the state of Adam before the fall?
PJ (41:14.34)
Adam's purpose was to commune with God. That was his fundamental purpose.
Angela Knobel (41:14.798)
or
Okay. Did Adam have a relationship with Christ?
PJ (41:25.15)
Well, he had a relationship with God and I think Jesus has been there since the beginning. I mean, like, yeah.
Angela Knobel (41:27.918)
Yeah, I know. Yeah, no, I'm just, yeah, no, I mean, and I don't even know what I think about this either, right? But I mean, so in the Catholic view, it's not, yeah.
PJ (41:35.294)
Yeah. Yeah. I just want you to know, you, you forced me to clarify so much of my own thinking working through this. I really appreciate it. I was like, I, yeah, yeah. This is like super helpful for just my own internal stuff. So yeah.
Angela Knobel (41:44.206)
Okay.
Angela Knobel (41:51.438)
Yeah, I mean, so for me, I guess in the way that I'm thinking about it, I guess what makes me, and I don't know that you're saying this, what makes me hesitant about the restored language is it implies that our natural state is being in the,
a sibling of Christ and an adopted son of God. And to me that sounds like a gift that is, and a transformation, and not something that's our natural state. It seems like something beyond our natural state, right? And if that's our natural state, then I understand why the language of supernature sounds weird.
Right? But I think that like Aquinas's view and the kind of view that I'm representing is like, no, I mean, your nature is, you know, what you're created as. And the worry is that like, it seems like if you're, a worry some people have had is that it seems like if you're created with super nature, then it seems like God somehow owes salvation to you in a sense.
Like if things are, if your nature is kind of what you're destined to be, then it can seem like that God would do some kind of injustice in not saving everybody. But if God gives us a gift that exceeds anything that our nature can achieve, then it's fine. But I think...
But now something's kind of clicking for me about maybe where the difference.
PJ (43:49.182)
I'm not gonna lie. One, I don't want to take too much away from your book. This has been super clear. I've really enjoyed this. This has helped me tremendously. I also feel like there are maybe theologians in heaven throwing chairs at each other. Like, I told you! I don't like performers and Catholic theologians right now. I don't know. I feel like we've rediscovered a very old debate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Angela Knobel (44:08.174)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's a super, I mean, I think it's a super old debate. I think Catholics have it too. I'll just say this briefly, because I know you probably you might even cut all of this if you want. But I mean, there's among Catholic circles, and I kind of mentioned this a little bit in the book, there's a debate about the so -called twofold end. Right. So the question is, if if our if the fulfillment of our nature is like what Aristotle described,
PJ (44:19.87)
Yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, no, it's fine.
PJ (44:31.102)
Right.
Angela Knobel (44:41.294)
and we can achieve it, then why do we need grace? Because we're gonna be happy just doing what Aristotle described, right? But if we only have one end, which is what you're saying, I think, and which I'm actually, I think, sympathetic to, I just wanna keep my language, right? If the real goal of human life is to be united with God in heaven, then we have one end, and that's really what we are, right?
PJ (44:59.388)
Yeah, yeah.
Angela Knobel (45:11.31)
And so, you know, there's this big debate in Catholics, in Catholic Thomist circles about whether there's one end or two ends for human life. And they go back and forth. And I don't think anybody really disagrees with each other at the end of the day. I guess that the one thing that I would want to insist on is the idea of there being a kind of fulfillment, a kind of incomplete fulfillment,
PJ (45:19.582)
Yeah, right.
Angela Knobel (45:41.142)
proportionate to what we're given in creation.
Angela Knobel (45:51.374)
proportionate to our abilities, our animality and our rationality, right? That what we can pursue through our animality and our rationality is good and the ability to pursue that is a gift. And no matter how good we get at pursuing that, it is not going to get us into heaven. We still need a further gift. And I'm perfectly willing to agree that that further gift,
PJ (46:15.198)
That I'm like, yeah. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (46:19.118)
is the true goal of mankind and that we are created for that further gift. I'm perfectly willing to agree to that. I just still nonetheless think that God didn't have to create us for that gift.
PJ (46:34.046)
The, uh, that might be a, like a disagreement there, but the, uh, the common grace really covers, I think a lot of what you're talking about with the animal and rational, like, uh, and I think that a lot of that's coming up with like globalization and like Christians looking around and being like, there's a lot of good people. Like you got to explain this somehow. You can't just be like, like, Oh, you're not, you know, anyways, so that's, I, that would be covered under the goods that God gives, you know,
Angela Knobel (46:42.21)
of us.
Angela Knobel (46:53.262)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, sure. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now, of course.
PJ (47:02.878)
Like, obviously, husbands love their wives, and brothers love brothers, and people can have courage, and they can serve their community, those sorts of things. But it doesn't fulfill that ultimate participation in the Trinity, right? So I think we agree there. And this is where I think, and you make a very specific point about this, and I think it's really kind of...
Angela Knobel (47:22.318)
Right, right.
PJ (47:32.124)
main thrust of your book, that the language around virtue versus disposition, and this is the really, like this is where I think where our agreement goes actually, like I'm just interested to hear the answer of this, is that the after someone is saved, like there's this transformational moment, and then obviously like, you know, like you, I love your example, John Newton, it's like he would like had this like revelatory moment where he's like, I'm
wicked and I need God. And then he kept working on the slave trade, like the slave ship for a while. You're like, I don't think it was like, I mean, let's be like, great, great moment of realization, great moment of mostly repentance, but like my man is still doing wicked things, right? So, but there are, so why is the language between like, whatever the habits that are carried over, why is disposition versus virtue important there?
Angela Knobel (48:05.966)
Yeah, I know. I was like, I'm going to go back to work. Yeah. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (48:13.966)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (48:32.59)
Well, because to say that something is a virtue is to say that it enables you to act in a manner appropriate to the goal of your life, right? To the purpose of your life, right? And once you have accepted Christ as your savior,
The purpose of your life is union with God in heaven. Right? And so to call something that I did through my own powers, that I caused in me through my own powers, a virtue, sounds like I am creating in myself through my own power, the ability to, right? I've only got one end. I don't have multiple ends. I only have one. Right? And so,
PJ (49:26.462)
Yeah, right.
Angela Knobel (49:30.19)
it seems more appropriate to call that a disposition, right, than something that has ordered me to union with God in heaven, I guess. So that's why I'm, like, I don't think that you can have two ultimate ends of your life simultaneously, right? Right, there's only one that is ultimate, right? And so the only thing that's going to be a virtue,
PJ (49:47.518)
Those aren't ultimate. Yeah. Like that's like, that's what, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (49:59.182)
is the habit that enables you to direct your acts towards that single purpose of your life.
PJ (50:09.758)
So on your view, dispositions can be quite strong though. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (50:13.166)
Sure, of course, of course. And I think you see that, I mean, I think you see that not only in someone like Newton, who has a kind of radical change, but yeah, he says still, he's still John Newton. He still has, the thing that I see, the difference that I see before and after the storm is that Newton isn't,
controlled by his vices, right? That the dominion of sin has been, like the chains have been broken, they're still weighing you down, right? But you're not forced, they're not forcing you, right? But I guess, I mean, I guess the other thing is I would say is that it's not just Newton, but also the rich young man, right? It's also the person who has lived.
as you would say, common grace, right? Who has lived this really exemplary morally upright life and helped widows and orphans and done all of these things. I still don't think they, and I don't think Aquinas thinks that, and I don't think you think they have the virtues that order them to, right? That really perfect them. And those are oddly, in my view, even that life,
of common grace could possibly pose an obstacle to acting in a truly Christian manner. Because in my view, the infused virtue and thinking about the need for the Holy Spirit to guide you in those acts means that you're gonna have to, the right action for you might.
be in many instances one that you don't fully understand and see why you have to do. Whereas I think we, the person who really, you know, the Aristotle who really tries to live a good life, I mean, they're kind of, they're pursuing goods that they really fully grasp. And I think that there's, I think those things can come apart.
PJ (52:28.946)
So when you're talking about, to give an example, to make sure I'm tracking with you, let's say you have a leader who his whole focus is to be a good leader. And so he has perfected this like virtue of leadership, like whether it's courage, whether it's wisdom, everything is bent towards him, like serving his community, which is a good, right? But that could, what would you say?
Angela Knobel (52:36.098)
Mm -hmm.
Angela Knobel (52:41.358)
Mm -hmm.
Angela Knobel (52:47.374)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right. Right. See, we're on the same page there. I said, see, we're on the same page there.
PJ (53:00.606)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then, yeah, but then from there, that could be something that could get in the way of him choosing to follow Christ, right? Yeah.
Angela Knobel (53:09.134)
Yeah, yeah, certainly, certainly, certainly. And following Christ as a leader might require him to act differently, right, or to forego things that prior to following Christ he would have thought were the best thing for his society or whatever.
PJ (53:13.758)
Um
PJ (53:29.022)
Well, that's the whole my kingdom is not of this world, right? Like it's like that my communities, my single community here is best served this way. And then it's like, oh, it's bigger than that. Right. Um, well, first off, let me just say you have been extremely patient and thank you. No, I mean, it was very, I mean, hopefully our listeners enjoy this. It was very, I enjoyed it a lot. It was very clarifying for our listeners. If you could have them.
Angela Knobel (53:31.31)
Right, right, right, right, right.
Right. Yeah.
Angela Knobel (53:44.014)
I don't know, I hope we didn't make things more confusing.
PJ (53:58.902)
Think about one thing through this week to take away from your book Aquinas and the infused moral virtues last plug for this beautiful cover here What what is something besides reading your book what is something which they should definitely do what What is something they should meditate on this week? What is something that they can do for themselves?
Angela Knobel (54:25.262)
I mean, just for me, the big thing that has been hugely influential in my life is the idea that...
All true perfection ultimately, or all true goodness really, that any goodness in any of our actions really ultimately is made possible by God's grace. I mean, to me that's been a hugely influential thought. I don't think that absolves us from trying our best, right? Because I think that we don't ever know really when...
when God, right, all we, we have to use our reason to pursue that, right? We have to use our reason and our minds and do things that seem very Aristotelian and just kind of prepare the way. So I don't know. I mean, that's the thing that's been hugely influential for me. I don't know.
PJ (55:25.624)
Dr. Knobel, thank you so much. It's been a real joy having you on.
Angela Knobel (55:29.614)
Okay, thanks so much.