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Are you a new parent or parent of twins and multiples? Do you want to thrive, rather than just survive?
Welcome to our show - a modern, step, by step guide to get you best set up for thrivival!
No outdated, frumpy or stuffy content - we're for NEW parents, we are new parents and we have found the best of the best experts, research and stories. If you're time poor - look no further - community and support building, efficiency hacks and tools, pregnancy, symptom management, partner support, body, bust, skin, hair, postpartum recovery, PND, logistics and travel, parenting twin psychology, childcare need-to-knows, returning to work and more!
I'm Emily, a twin and twin mum. I have researched extensively the best tips, efficiency hacks, expert advice. Books, white papers, medical papers, online groups, articles - sifted through it all, for you. I hope this podcast helps you best navigate this exciting time.
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Podcast: Hey There Thivival
Welcome to the Hey
There Thrivival podcast.
I'm your host, Emily Haigh,
and on this podcast we talk
everything Extreme Parenthood.
We've got inspiring parent stories
and top global experts on all
things, twins and multiples.
You're going to want to tune in for now.
What happens when a professional
ballerina swaps her point shoes for
play mats and then laces them back up
after three children, including twins.
Well, if you are a new parent or a
parent of multiples, or just a lover
of elite performance, then today's
guest, Dana Stephensen will dish
up all of that and so much more.
This is a really relatable story.
It talks about her professional career as
a ballerina, navigating identity change
into motherhood, becoming a twin mom.
Then working through postnatal
depression, and then a reflection.
On what's next?
Now If if you enjoyed today's episode,
don't forget, hit that subscribe button
and it would also be great if you could
please give us a rating so the algorithm
gets us to reach more parents just like
you to thrive rather than just survive.
Okay, let's jump in.
Emily: Dana, welcome to the
Hey There Thrivival podcast.
It's so great to have
you joining us today.
Could you give the audience an overview
as to who you are and what you do?
Dana Stephensen: Hi.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
my name is Dana Stephenson and I am
a mother of three beautiful kids.
I have an almost 10-year-old Jasper and
twin girls who have recently turned five.
I was a professional ballerina with the
Australian Ballet for 19 years, and I
retired from the stage two years ago.
So since then I've been full-time mum
adjusting to, post retirement life,
which is a pretty massive transition.
So there's been lots going on in
the last few years especially.
Emily: I bet, I bet.
Well, a lot to get into Dana.
So I'm looking forward to hearing
more about your journey today.
let's start with little Dana.
So there's not a lot of people out there
who go from doing ballet or whatever hobby
it is that they do when they're younger
to making it a professional career.
So I'd love to hear a bit about
who you were and how you started
to make, I guess, that transition.
Dana Stephensen: Yes, so spot on.
it, it was really a very natural
progression that ballet as my hobby as
a young, a 3-year-old when I started.
And then obviously I danced throughout
my childhood and into where I chose
to it more, particularly and with a
lot more determination and dedication.
and then, then it became my career.
And it's only since I've retired
actually, that I can really look
back and see how very unique
it is for your childhood hobby.
Your childhood dream to come true as
your career and to be able to follow
that through for so many years.
so it is a really unique gift actually.
But really I started dancing
and I sort of never stopped.
Um, and for me it feels like one big
chapter actually, rather than sort of
broken into when I was a little girl.
And then when I got more serious,
it was really just one big, big
chapter full of little chapters with
ballet at the center of my life.
So I was a very enthusiastic,
energetic 3-year-old.
I started, um, dance lessons after sitting
at the back of my sister's dance lessons.
was probably a bit more
confident than her.
Um, you kind of couldn't stop
me dancing and that kind of just
went through my childhood and.
Yes, dance was central to my life.
It was part of my social life.
Um, I danced six days a week
from a young age, and it was just
something I felt so happy to do.
It felt very natural and it felt
exactly how I wanted to express myself.
And then that continued, obviously
into my career that I just was
able to develop that further.
Emily: Fantastic.
And did you have, was there a
particular dancer that you saw or an
idol that really inspired you to go
down that path or what, what was it?
I'm interested to hear if there was
any particular, impetus for that.
Dana Stephensen: The Australian Ballet
used to tour to Brisbane most years.
as a child, I would watch them when
they came to the theater here, and
I would see their performances.
I also guessed it extra as a child,
it's called, um, in their performances.
So able to be backstage with the
dancers and on stage with the dancers.
This is as a seven, eight, 9-year-old
in a very tiny role in a ballet.
But the, the theater experience and
being around professional dancers
who are dedicated to what they do was
incredibly inspiring as a young kid.
Um, and it gave me the vision too,
that this was a job, this was a career.
was something you can
do, um, when you grow up.
So I think there wasn't
particular dancers.
So much rather just the experience of
what being a professional dancer looked
like, um, through a child's eyes and
being able to be on stage every day,
as your career to me just seemed very
natural and I was thrilled that there
was a way you could do that as a grownup.
Emily: That's so interesting and it
makes me think, again, being in a
city like Brisbane where you've got.
Access to those ballets, or even
if I guess the touring to rural
areas makes it more real and then
you've got that guest opportunity.
Because I, yeah, I think about it
from, being in smaller towns as well.
'cause we had ballet, lots of ballerinas
where I'm from, it's life in small
towns, like you live and breathe it.
but yeah, I guess if you were in a
bigger city where you can go and guest
and, and those sorts of things, that
would be particularly, uh, inspiring.
Dana Stephensen: yes.
Emily: So let's, talk a little bit
more around your ballet career.
So you've gone from being a young
dancer to, becoming professional.
What does that look like?
How many days a week do you dance?
dance How many hours
can you paint a picture?
And is it, is it a bit like Black Swan
and Center Stage or is that completely
off?
Dana Stephensen: Okay.
This is always a really
good question to ask.
Um, those movies often come up, I'd
like to say it's a lot more like center
stage than Black Swan, there were
elements of Black Swan that I could
see where they were going with, but
ultimately it was a thriller movie.
Uh, it's competitive because people
really care about what they do.
It is not quite to that extent.
Um, again, I think it goes back to it is
a very privileged, unique special almost.
And I think it grabs attention and
the energy, um, young people who, who
naturally have an inclination to be really
dedicated and driven, conscientious,
and take that sort of responsibility
of the art form from quite a young age.
I think that's, that natural
progression sort of happens for
most people around 10, 11, 12.
For me, it was a bit later, I think
when I was dancing, there was much less
focus on full-time training earlier on.
So I was able to finish grade 10 at school
with, with a full normal school before I
moved to the Australian Ballet School in
Melbourne when I was 16, which was the
start of my full-time training, which
you balance alongside school, but that's
when it really, steps up and it's the
best in the country that go to Melbourne
and you've gone from your local schools,
um, being the big fish, and then you
go to the Australian Ballet School and
you're the little fish in a big pond.
but you are in your.
Surrounded by the best talent
and pushed and encouraged by
the best talent in the country.
So that is six days a week and you,
you begin in that full-time setting.
You're dancing all day long with
school at the end of the day.
Um, the Australian Ballet Company
is in the same building as
the Australian Ballet School.
They're down the corridor.
So you're always at the windows looking
at the company, perform, uh, rehearse,
um, get ready for their performances
so you can see where you want to be.
It's right there.
And there's a tangible, um, peering into
the windows just wanting to be on the
other side, which is really inspiring,
but it is a very competitive, um, and
a competitive world and you are facing
that at often, quite a young age.
Um, you know, we're talking about
teenagers here and as a mom now.
can see these are young people
still with a lot of, uh, maturing.
That happens quite quickly, in terms
of handling cer certain settings.
Having said that, the competition
drives you to be the best you can be.
And my friendships that I've from that
time as a teenager are still people
I have deep, meaningful friendships
with today because we were bonded over
what we were experiencing together.
So it's less black swan in that respect.
It's actually much more cohesive, and
they're really deep friendships you have
with those people because it's a very
unique thing you are doing together.
So for me, dancing has always had,
obviously I've loved the dancing
aspect, but fortunately for me, there's
always been, they are my people.
They're my tribe, they're my,
they're my social group, they're my
friendships as well at the same time.
Emily: Got it, very interesting.
I imagine six days a week dancing for
a young person is a lot and just like a
sports team that becomes really close.
I imagine it's similar for
ballet, which is another for,
uh, or type of athletic endeavor.
so I can imagine you'd be very
bonded, especially as you go through
the, uh, physical and probably
emotional rollercoaster of executing
and are you gonna get to the,
next level and, and all of that.
Would that be on the mark there?
Dana Stephensen: Yes.
Yes.
There's definitely the
physicality of dancing and it
is an athletic, um, It's tricky.
I think a lot of, there's sometimes a,
um, misunderstanding with the language
used around ballet in terms of it is like
a sport and it is incredibly athletic.
Um, some ballet.
Uh, people in the ballet world
obviously take it very seriously.
That is, it is an art
and it's an art form.
But I, I think personally it is a great
thing to appreciate that it is like
being a professional athlete in terms
of the demands physically, the demands
physically and emotionally, the journey
you go on and that you are sharing
with your colleagues, your friends.
Um, but you hold each other up
at those times that are hard.
And I think the imprint of that on
young people as teenagers, going
into young adults, their experiences
that perhaps other people their age
aren't having in those same settings.
So it is a unique journey,
but the emotional bonds you
form are there for life.
Emily: I bet it creates a
lot of resilience and, and,
strength in that as well.
Having to perform and, and get up there
and you are responsible for yourself.
I'd also love to hear, I
guess, Dana about the travel.
So you became a professional
ballerina and I know that you've done
quite a lot of travel in this job.
Could you paint for the
audience what that looks like?
What sort of countries you went to?
Is it glamorous?
Is it fun?
Is it all hard work?
Dana Stephensen: I think it's all of
the, above uh, it is a profession.
We very fortunately in our company,
the Australian Ballet, we have
been lucky enough to travel a lot.
It is a national touring company.
It's the national company.
So we tour Australia, we spend, you
would spend two big seasons in Sydney,
the company's based in Melbourne.
Um, you would spend two months at
a time, twice a year in Sydney.
So you of relocate, I guess,
for two months, twice a year.
Yeah, there is, there was usually
international tours most years.
So my first tour was my
first year in the company.
We went to the uk, to Wales and to London.
And then across those 19 years
we've been to Paris, Manchester,
London, um, Los Angeles, San
Francisco, New York, several times.
Uh, also Japan, China, New Zealand.
Um, so yes, quite extensively,
which is a big plus of the job and
young people getting to go and do
what you love overseas is, really
important as an artist because it
pushes you to be your best version.
There is a lot of pressure and
which you put on yourself mostly.
Um, and then looking after
yourself physically in those.
Um, on those tours is
actually really tricky.
Obviously, sightseeing in New York
is a wonderful thing to do, but
when you've got, um, six shows of
Swan Lake to do four acts a night,
you have to look after yourself.
So if you are, if you walk too much
in your, your feet and your legs
get tight and all the muscles are
tight, you can't dance properly.
So it's definitely a fine balance and
something you learn across your career.
And I think as younger dancers,
that's part of the journey.
And you look at the more experienced
dancers who know how to manage the
travel and the jet lag and the hydration.
And you can obviously have a wonderful
time enjoying where you are, but you
are also representing your company and
your country at the highest level in
these big centers of ballet and dance.
And you wanna do a really good job.
there is, there are glamorous parties
and there's lots of those lovely things,
but the backbone and underneath it
all is a lot of hard work and a lot of
that continuation of after yourself and
learning how to look after yourself so
you can be the best you can be on stage.
And I definitely was able across those
years, I learned my, little tricks and
ways to, to be able to balance that.
Emily: Oh, and did you say four times
a night you're performing Swan Lake.
Is that right?
Dana Stephensen: Swan Lake is
a four act ballet, so there's
four different sections.
Um, and for the female
dancers, that's a big show.
And usually you are dancing four
acts a night, so a good two and a
half hours of ballet each night.
And then usually there is another
ballet or another program you're
rehearsing in the day, which then you
are performing, you know, next week.
Or in Sydney when we were
there for two months at a time.
Uh, you do 20, 21, 22, 23 shows
of each season, and you do two
seasons plus rehearsing in the
daytime for your next season.
And your, your, you've got your
training class every morning, all of
your rehab, conditioning, Pilates,
all of the things fitting in physio.
I mean, this all changed
a lot when I became a mom.
Uh, what I was able to fit in
and what I was able to manage.
But managing your body is a huge
part of the journey as a ballerina.
Emily: I can imagine, especially so young.
I mean, I, I don't, I assume being
a ballerina and having people
around that know how to manage their
body for such physical exertion
so regularly, you learn a lot.
But I took forever to work out
how to manage my body, so I'm
sure that learning and discipline.
And how do you, well you said
hydrate and then jet lag and
and
yeah.
Are there a lot of injuries.
Dana Stephensen: Uh, yes.
It's a, it's a physical art form and
I, we do a lot of preventative work
now, and the Australian Ballet's
artistic health team is one of,
if not the best and most extensive
and most up to date in the world.
So everyone looks to the Australian
Ballet for the artistic health advice,
and I think that's because they have
developed such a broad spectrum.
Of care.
And also it's the education
of the dancers as you come in.
So as a 17, 18-year-old joining the
company, you begin then very much
learning about preventative care.
You have to do all your exercises.
You, you find out your weaknesses.
It's not about them being weak or
turning them into strengths, they're
just things you need to keep on check.
nutrition's really important, and
that's a different journey for everyone
as well, depending, um, on several
circumstances, but the same goal in that
you wanna be for every show you can be.
and that is the best part of the job,
and that's how I always saw it too.
If you get to be on stage every
night, then that's the best part,
because especially now once I've
retired, you don't remember the shows.
You know, the shows that you didn't
get to do, you don't remember.
The how many shows you got off
in a season of Nutcracker, which
is a really long, hard season.
are not thinking about what you did
those nights when you weren't performing.
What you actually take and remember and
is precious to you is every single time
you got to be out there, and that's,
that's looking after yourself and you
begin to see quite quickly the Australian
Ballet perform 200 shows a year average.
At least there you look to the older
dancers, how they manage their bodies,
and fortunately now with females and
males are dancing longer and longer
because of this sort of preventative
care and education about our bodies.
Um, also like that's where
the sports science comes in.
Joining the art form.
There's a lot we can learn from
sports science, but we also have
to, understand, appreciate, and
reflect that it is an art form.
It, we do have to be managed
differently to footballers or
cricketers or tennis players.
Emily: So interesting.
I guess it's just another world.
I mean, I did mention
to you I was a dancer.
I laugh because it's such a long time
ago and you know, a childhood dancer.
But it's interesting hearing about you
articulate what's involved and, and
that it's a world leading, business
while providing information for the
rest of the world and how to look
after your body and that balance.
I love hearing that.
I,
Dana Stephensen: Hmm.
Emily: I wish I could talk
about that another time.
So now I've got to mention as well, you
are highly awarded and accomplished.
I've got here the Telstra Ballet
Dancer People's Choice Award, the
Graham Murphy Award for Excellence.
Um, and then is it right that
you also played, uh, ballerina
in that movie, Mao's Last Dancer?
Dana Stephensen: Yes.
So, uh, the quarter ballet,
So, the group of swans were.
Uh, in the MA's last dancer
movie, were a couple of leading
dancers who had much more featured
roles, but we were in a scene,
was yeah, a, a great experience.
Another example of there's so many
different experiences that come to you
when you're in the profession, and am not
great on screen and I'm very much built
for the stage, which is a projection.
Um, the screen is not, um, for me, but
this was again, in context of the ballet.
We were the flock of swans.
Emily: I've watched it.
I'll have to watch it again or something.
Now what, what is your
biggest career highlight?
If we, we talk about, I guess,
all these awards, the travel,
was there one particular moment?
I know you obviously were promoted
to different, levels, but is there
something that stands out that
would be a massive highlight in
your, uh, professional career?
Dana Stephensen: Um, I mean,
there's so many highlights.
Um, yeah, especially in this position
now, since I retired two years ago.
The last two years have been a
really reflective sort of process, to
look back across what was 19 years.
Um, I danced so many beautiful roles
and obviously performing all across the
world, um, as well, roles that I've always
wanted to do and principal roles that I
never thought I'd get to do, like Giselle.
Um, I performed Giselle after
the birth of my son, Jasper.
That was the first thing I danced back
after him, which was very, very special.
Um, and again, similar
after I had my twin girls.
The performances I did after that,
uh, were very special, I guess because
it's such a, such a transformation.
So to get back on the stage felt
like the biggest triumph and in, and
they were very different pregnancies
and very different journeys.
But I guess that gives you the perspective
though, about how wonderful this
opportunity is to be able to be on stage.
So they're very heightened times
of emotion and, um, feelings
of fulfillment and enjoyment.
So the shows after my, my children were
born, my first shows back, both of in
my mind, I could remember every second.
Um, finished my career actually in London
at the Royal Opera House at Covent Garden.
the company hadn't performed there in over
30 years, and I had never performed there.
So we performed, uh, George
Balanchine's Jewels, which is
one of my favorite productions.
I was able to finish my career there on
that stage, which was And you know, I
read a book to my girls now that I had
when I was little, at the end of the
story, this little girl gets to be on the
Royal Opera House stage and I can point
to it and say that's where mommy was.
So it's a really nice arc
sort of, um, see that.
And I, I think the biggest journey
across your career, I'm gonna talk
about highlight though, is you, I
grew to know myself through dance in
a way I never knew was possible, but
growing to know the artists I could be.
And to have the experience to express
that on stage by the end of my career,
very naturally, very openly and
spontaneously was the greatest gift.
Emily: Fantastic.
I love hearing that, I guess appreciation
for your body and performing after
having your children, and we'll get
into that in some more details shortly.
So thank you for sharing that, Dana.
So let's, go into becoming a mother.
So it was 2015 when Jasper was born.
and I'm just, I guess we're, we're
gonna talk about this with your
twins as well, so feel free if
you want to blend it together.
But, how is it to dance pregnant and
how far along were you dancing pregnant?
I, I'm just really, I,
guess, uh, impressed.
Dana Stephensen: Well, it's,
it's, different for everyone.
And I'll preface that by saying every,
every, every pregnancy is different.
Um, every situation's different.
So I, I always like to share that because
it's, it's amazing what I was able to
do in certain settings, but equally, uh,
the pregnancies itself were different.
So Jasper, I was, uh, seven and a half
weeks pregnant with him, and I was 29.
So quite young, I guess, at the time.
Um, and I sprained my ankle in rehearsal
because I was, uh, I think worried.
And I think, uh, holding on
pregnant, being pregnant in a
ballet company is very exposing.
You're trying not to tell anyone.
You don't want anyone to know.
or in my case, I didn't, I wanted to
just get through the first trimester.
It's all very new, and you're in
a leotard and your body changes,
not massively, but it changes
enough for you to feel different
and you think people will notice.
So it's a, it's a very tricky
situation to sort of be pregnant
in until everyone knows.
And I think in my first pregnancy with
Jasper, I, I felt that and I took that on.
And not surprisingly, I sprained my
ankle, which was my only injuries
really in my career, were several ankle
sprain, which happened at particular
emotional times, um, where I felt
unstable emotionally in different ways.
so that showed up and then, so then
I didn't have to perform with him
pregnant, which suited me just fine.
Uh, with the twins.
years later it was a bit different.
Um, I was.
sick with them being twins.
I was incredibly tired and really, really
finding it not awful feel Basically,
dancing helped me sort of stay a little
bit, on enough It I me felt awful.
If I wasn't dancing, I
felt incredibly sick.
I could only eat like chips and have sips
of coke, and that was basically it for the
first trimester, um, which is not the best
diet to fuel a ballet dancer, obviously.
That was all I could manage, but
it distracted me enough to, and the
physical exercise I think helped.
Uh, so I danced with them until
I was about 12 weeks pregnant.
I performed on stage with the twins.
At that point in just a white leotard.
So that's like, basically like swimmers,
um, of all things you wanna be in
when you're pregnant with twins on
stage in front of thousands of people.
I would probably not choose that,
but that's always what happens.
If you're pregnant in the ballet, you'll
have the smallest costume to wear.
but that's when also COVID happened
and it shut down everything, obviously,
but it shut down our performances.
So yeah, the beginnings of both
pregnancies obviously were very different.
Emily: Thank you for sharing that.
And I'm interested if you can maybe
explain as well, so in such a, a physical
industry where you've got to be fit
and strong and there's, uh, I mean,
historically there's talk of body shapes.
I'm not sure what it is like now.
but how was that received?
Did you, were you able to eventually tell
people and are they supportive of women?
I guess given that, know, we are,
if, if you're in a, well, if you, if
you're a female and you decide your
family wants to have children, you
are the one that creates the child.
interested to hear more
about what that's like.
Dana Stephensen: Yeah, so the
the Australian Ballet is very
supportive, so I, I've had very
favorable, supportive experiences.
Now, I can't talk for everyone, and
I, I do believe that's not the case
everywhere in the world, um, with ballet.
But I, there's a long
way to go and I hope.
Everyone else catches up.
The Australian ballet has sort of
had a footprint of maternity leave
and, um, looking after the dancers
when they're pregnant, that they
introduced a, um, maternity leave
program, but also a safe duties program.
So their dancers, when they're ready
to stop, uh, performing on stage,
once they've told people they're
pregnant, um, they move into safe
duties within the organization.
So you get to explore other possibilities.
You can.
I worked on reception when I was pregnant
with Jasper, um, which I really loved.
'cause you get to meet different
people and on the phones to people.
Um, I've worked in philanthropy.
I helped out in communications for a bit.
Um, some dancers work in
company management, some shadow.
The health team, the artistic health
team, if they, they might be studying, uh.
uh, at uni in some aspects.
So then they sort of can use their study
to then gain work experience, I guess.
So it's a very positive, enriching
experience and for an arts company, as
the dancers who are on the stage, working
really hard in that capacity to be able
to step back and see the organization from
a whole across a different perspective
is so healthy and helpful so good for
you to see, especially when you then go
back into the dancer and on the stage
you, you know, how much is working
behind you to get you up to the stage.
it's a very enriching experience and it's
very much depending how much exercise
you do in terms of daily class, you
can take classes as long as you like.
you've obviously got access
to physio and Pilates and.
Keeping your body strong.
But I think the, um, the narrative
around, uh,
pregnancy, certainly in my experience
was only ever a very positive one.
And I had really positive role
models before I chose to start a family.
it seemed possible because they did it.
And that was modeled for me.
It's not without its challenges.
Uh, that's for sure.
Yeah, because it's a,
a high demand career.
It involves a lot of you and your
time and your energy, which often
is at odds with that feeling
of what you wanna be as a mom.
But it is possible, and
there are people to help you.
every single dancer who comes
back after having a baby is
exponentially better in terms of
how they're dancing their artistry.
What they can give to the
stage is exponentially.
Like out of this world better,
so it serves the company too.
Emily: Yeah, well there's
a whole lot of studies.
So I come from the, the corporate world
and I worked at a, a global company
that was all about best research and
a lot of the time they'd be talking
about retention programs for women.
Why do we not have enough women?
purely based on a, a business
line, cost perspective, right?
Because it costs to lose people
and then have to retrain.
So I imagine that rotation through
the company, which again is quite
common in a lot of industries, is
good because then you become more
rounded, more value valuable employee.
And then also, I mean, keeping
resources that you've spent so much
time investing instead of having
that turnover is, is really good.
because it's actually, it's a costing,
I know that from HR people as well.
So that, that is fantastic and I hope
for anyone listening that's a dancer
in another country that doesn't do
this, I hope you have, your ears have
pricked up and you go and have a very
good chat with your team about how they
connect with the Australian Ballet.
So kudos to the Australian Ballet.
I'm really glad to, because that
is, that's pretty much sounds like
it's aligned with best practice
across a bunch of industries.
so look, we've jumped ahead a bit,
but I'm interested I guess to hear
about be how you fell pregnant
again, given we've got a big audience
of people that, have multiples.
So 2019 you performed the Australian
Collaboration, Australian Ballet
Collaboration with the Wiggles.
which for anyone who doesn't know
as a, a children's entertainment
troop, I don't know what they
would call themselves these days.
and you did something called the
Big Ballet Day and Party Time for
anyone with kids who's seen it.
and you met the Purple Wiggle,
who is Lachy Gillespie.
so Dana I wanted to just ask you, are
you just a huge fan of the Color Purple?
Dana Stephensen: There is a
lot of purple in our lives.
Yes.
Uh, Lachy is the purple wiggle,
or he's one of the purple
Emily: Oh right.
Dana Stephensen: two of each color now.
the Wiggles have, there are eight
Wiggles so there are two of each.
So here's one of the purples.
yeah, there is a lot
of purple in our life.
Purple is definitely our family color.
yeah, so the Australian Ballet was asked
to join the Wiggles on A DVD at the
time, a release called Big Ballet Day.
So about eight of our
dancers were sort of picked.
Most of them were parents,
um, with little kids.
Uh, so I was lucky enough to be one
of those to be picked to join in.
uh, we filmed three days
on set there for that.
And that's how I met Lachy.
And that's, yeah, that was
the start of our journey.
Emily: I wanted to ask, so did you
know you had twins in your family?
because your girls are
fraternal, which is genetic.
Did you know at all that it was a
possibility or was it just a complete
surprise?
Dana Stephensen: No, we, we, had
no of, no twins in our family, on either
side in any way.
Um, they are, we have
fraternal twin girls.
So we found out, at the seven week
scan we went in, I've already got my
son Jasper from a previous marriage.
Um, he was five at the time.
We went into the obstetrician.
Um, he said, oh, do
you want any more kids?
And we said, oh no, just this one.
We've got Jasper already.
Um, lock's the most
wonderful stepdad to Jasper.
We, we were happy to just
add one to the, the family.
and then of course there was
straight over on the little
ultrasound, it took about 0.3
seconds for me to see.
There was two little jelly beans there.
And Lockie has never, had,
never seen a scam before.
So he, he didn't even know what he was
looking at except that I'd squealed.
And the doctor just smiled and, said,
oh my gosh, there's two, isn't there?
he said, yes.
So Lockie cried, cried with happiness.
Um, and yeah, he, he's always
thought he would have twins, so
he just had a sneaky suspicion.
Anyway, um, then, then we sat down
and started talking about twins.
But yes, I, I, we don't know
any in our family by this point.
I was 35 and, um.
I'd had some sort of information that we
were, I was getting towards the end of my,
reproductive career.
but just that as you're getting
older, that things start to change.
And being a ballet dancer is tricky
because your best years, your best
years, uh, probably between 30
and 40, um, artistically, that's
where you are coming into your own.
It's where you are much more confident
and capable in your abilities.
Younger dancers have lots of skills,
but it takes time and experience
to learn the craft of the art form,
and that really comes into fruition
between your 30 and your 40 sort
of period for males and females.
That's where your most exciting and
most true and most honest on stage.
It's also when your biological clock
is ticking and you are thinking
about family life and then thinking
about touring half the year with
a family and how that might work.
going to look after your baby
and then coming back to dance?
How, what's that gonna look like?
If you want several children,
how are we gonna space them?
How are we gonna fit it all in, in the
prime of your career, knowing that your
career will also probably naturally come
to a finish if you are lucky around 40,
which is later than what it used to be.
are dancing much longer now,
but for a female, if you get
to 40, that's incredible.
Some people can go past.
Obviously when I retired physically I
could have done more, but logistically,
family wise, I was ready for a change.
it's a very.
It's a very short window really, if
you're looking at 10 years sort of
window fitting all of that in, plus
retiring and a career transition,
what that transition looks like.
So there's no right or wrong,
obviously, but they have to be really
quite considered, steps, I guess.
Um, and we, we were ready to add
to our family, and then we were
blessed with two, and COVID actually
hit at the same sort of time.
So it was a very unusual time.
I was pregnant with the twins,
delivered the twins, and then it was,
I think I was back on stage with them
maybe 15 months after I had them.
And I hadn't missed a show
because COVID had shut down all
the performances in that time.
So it was quite bizarre.
People said we'd, we've obviously planned
this so very well that we, you know.
That I managed to fit it into that
COVID time, but that's not true at all.
Of course, that all just was coincidence.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
And I think, yeah, not many people plan
twins, although I do have some friends
that say they want to have twins on
purpose, but that's another story.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was like, interesting.
Okay, good luck.
Anyway, so I think Dana, you've mentioned
some really relatable things there.
So women, we do have a biological
clock and whether you are performing in
something such as ballet or a sport or in
a professional career as well, you've got
x amount of time to fit in if you want
the children, the time for a relationship,
and also your professional endeavors.
And I think it's always,
it's tricky, right?
When do you do it?
is never a good time, which is so cliche.
It is true.
And how do you do that?
And then especially when
you've got multiples.
so I think a lot of people will relate
to that because that is a decision
that people are always navigating.
Will it impact your career?
You know, Can you wait later, can you not?
How's your biology going?
You know, all those checks.
So I think really interesting call out.
So You talked about your
performance with the twins.
you had your final performance,
uh, just before you went on mat
leave, or was it at 12 weeks?
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding.
Was it at 12 weeks?
Do you get to do.
Dana Stephensen: With the twins?
Yes.
So the last performance with the twins in
my tummy was at 12 weeks or just before.
Um, it was also the last performances
before COVID shut everything down.
So I had planned that that
would be my last performance.
And then.
the end, it was everyone's last
performance for a long time.
And then my return performance back
the twins was the company's first
shows back in Melbourne, in the
theater, uh, since COVID had started.
So it wasn't unusual all,
Emily: Yeah,
I mean,
Dana Stephensen: yeah.
Emily: of good that, well, I don't
know, maybe good that you didn't
need to dance pregnant with twins.
'cause I was just, in my head, I was just
making the connection as to how pregnant
you were when you had, were dancing
with twins, but 12 weeks is probably
slightly easier to dance as opposed to
having a very, uh, large twin stomach.
Um.
Dana Stephensen: it is.
different though.
Your, Your, oxygen, obviously
as your sort of blood oxygen
levels change, you do get puffed.
I mean, most pregnant
women would say this.
You, you often feel like you
get more breathy or more puffed
quicker, especially earlier on.
that, yeah, just very busy time
building two babies, two placentas.
Um, so it is, it is aerobically
harder, though you might not have a
big twin tummy yet, but aerobically
it is much harder because you're
running out of the air quicker.
And then obviously by the end
of the pregnancy you can't
breathe because there's no space.
Um, yes, it was, it was, it was a great,
um, like I said, it was hard outside
of dancing if I was dancing and if I
was on stage dancing, I didn't feel as
nauseous as what I did when I was just
sitting in the rehearsal studio, just like
wanting to just like curl up in a ball.
Emily: Yeah, I bet.
Well, my doctor had actually told me that
thing about the breathing they said that
you get normally with one baby, it's 50%
extra blood for the heart to pump around.
And then when you get more, and then
there's obviously all the other.
Changes and the hormones, coming together.
So I imagine for a lot of people,
again, I won't say all because have
no idea, uh, how, how, commonplace it
is, but I imagine yeah, there would
be some, um, some restrictions there.
So, let's go through to, the delivery.
Dana you've called this
your best performance.
so I love, I love hearing that.
It's such a beautiful way to describe it.
how many weeks were the twins born?
What did they weigh?
could you talk us through, the start
there and maybe, as to why you've
called it your, your best performance?
I think it'd be nice to
explain that to the audience.
Dana Stephensen: Um, okay.
The twins were born at thirty six five.
I was very worried about premature
delivery, pregnancy, um, twins
and slightly higher risk.
That was compared to being
pregnant with a singleton.
And perhaps being my first time with
Jasper, I didn't worry about that so much.
But with the twins,
that was a daily worry.
It was also compounded to being COVID.
We were in Melbourne, which were, was a
very intense time of lockdown, nonstop,
especially Jasper, who was already five.
So our life was very different also,
um, Lockie works in Sydney, wiggles
performing, uh, produce and in Sydney.
So we were, he was traveling back
and forth along the Hume Highway,
and then the border was closed.
So we actually had to make a decision
for him to get to Melbourne and
he had to stay there, and he sort
of worked from there remotely.
Um, this was in the middle of my
pregnancy and then it got so bad in
Melbourne and there was a lot of, uh,
it was very stressful and I had lots
of scans being twins, and there were
some concerns at the time as well.
So I'd be going in for scans twice,
three times a week by myself, um,
with everyone's in masks and obviously
Jasper had to be looked after.
There was lots of stress.
Um, and then at the time, the
hospital rules were always changing
too, about partners being in
and partners not being allowed.
And, and then with if there were potential
complications with the birth or the
babies after birth, and if they'd need
obviously any extra care in NICU or, um.
extra things beyond that, which is
something we were looking at potentially.
It was, it was really
stressful and a massive worry.
So we actually, both of us are from
Brisbane and our families are here.
we applied for an a medical exemption,
was approved, fortunately, very
fortunately, um, because we were looking
at both babies potentially needing
extra surgery after birth, potentially
one not the other, with an older child
at home in terms of infection control.
and it was just incredibly stressful
knowing how it would play out.
So we drove up to Brisbane,
we did hotel quarantine for
14 days as it was at the time.
Um, we left our obstetrician
who we'd been with obviously.
Um, I had to leave Jasper behind
in Melbourne with his dad, so I
didn't see him for three months
because of this, which was awful.
And, uh.
it was, it was a, to a great cost
to all of us in that respect.
It was emotionally really difficult,
sort of choosing to go somewhere to
hopefully have our babies in sort
of a safer help, not a safer way,
but a way that felt supported for
us and that we would have support.
Um, but it meant, I mean, he was happy
and healthy and fine with his dad, but
I knew I wouldn't see him for three
months because of the border closures.
So after hotel quarantine, we
actually met our obstetrician in
Brisbane over Zoom hotel quarantine.
I think I was 34, 35 weeks pregnant.
We got out of hotel quarantine the
following week, or 10 days later,
we were at the hospital with the
obstetrician having the babies.
So I mention all of that because
there was a massive backstory behind
the girls actually being born.
So it felt like a massive
triumph to actually.
Be there on the day, and
it actually all went well.
Um, guess, and I had, yeah,
I had a great obstetrician.
He, he was obviously a, we met
him very late in the piece, but
was recommended by my sister.
And he was incredible.
And we had beautiful midwives.
We had an incredible team.
As you know, with twins, you have
two of everyone, um, a big team
at the back thinking they may
have to be rushed off somewhere.
So, uh, it was, yeah, it was a big
day, but they were born and at 2.2
kilos each and everything was good.
Their scores were good and they, um,
yeah, they seemed good, which was a.
Just massive relief, which anyone
will know after you've had your
baby, is just what you've been
holding onto for nine months, that
they're okay, you can actually say,
oh my gosh, they're actually okay.
Um, but yeah, I was really lucky
or just fortunate that I was able
to have a natural delivery with
the twins, which isn't as common.
Um, say that though, it was, it was
probably a preference to have a go
at that, but I was very much happy
to be in the capable hands of all
the professionals and I trusted that.
I trusted my doctor.
I trusted everyone to make those
decisions that were right for me.
And the babies at the
time, there was no plan.
I know.
Um.
We all feel different about certain
things we can control or not.
We had been through quite a full on
experience already in the pregnancy, and
I was, I was really happy to just have
healthy babies and for me to also be okay.
And very fortunately, that ended up
being a really beautiful birth that I
was able to deliver them both naturally.
Um, they're 16 minutes apart.
Emily: Wow.
Dana Stephensen: Um,
it did help, I think that
I'd had already had a
natural delivery with my son.
So,
the babies were presenting
in the right way.
Um, I really, really, if possible,
really didn't want one to be
born naturally and then one by a
C-section, which is always the risk.
So I was really hoping
that wasn't gonna happen.
Um, so I, it it was just a
really beautiful day actually.
Um.
a fantastic epidural, which my doctor the
anesthetist, he, he had for me was the
best, and she'd give me the best epidural.
Um, and I was induced.
There was lots of elements that
were controlled, so it wasn't, but
that's what made me feel settled
and confident that all things were
being able to be looked after.
So went in, in the morning, I
was induced, and the anesthetist
arrived for the epidural.
I knew I'd have that pretty much early on.
I wasn't going to wait
until it got too bad.
I wanted to be ready in case
we had to rush off to surgery.
and then it was only, I think three,
hours later I was ready to push.
And they sort of said, oh, I
don't know if really not yet.
Maybe not yet.
I said, I, I think I am.
I, feel any pain.
I could feel pressure, but no pain.
was amazing, how amazing that
they can do that for you.
I, I felt settled and I was calm.
So, and then I was able to,
Lulu came out first and I got to
hold her and she was all good.
Um, I tried, by then Lottie had
floated up to the top a little bit,
which can happen, and you just wait.
Their, her heart rate was okay.
So you just sort of wait for them
to find their way back down again.
Um, and then she was ready.
So I tried holding Lulu as I
was, um, pushing Lottie out.
But it, that was, I actually was laughing.
It was a bit, it seemed a bit
silly to try and hold a baby
and try to get the other one.
So I said, you know, would you mind
holding her so I could focus on this?
Emily: I think someone.
Dana Stephensen: yeah.
then, yeah, and then Lottie
was born and she was healthy
and her scores were good.
And then I got to hold them both.
And yeah, it was great.
Emily: That's a really inspiring
story, and I say that obviously
we know everyone's different.
They've got a different situation,
medical team, a different, uh, situation
with what state your babies are in.
But you are right, it is very common
for C-sections now and, and again,
not without reason, uh, I'm sure
a lot of medical professionals
would say, but it's great to hear.
about Your particular story amongst
the other stories where you've done,
a natural delivery of vaginal, I know
that's a bit of a contr word with some
people, uh, and you've felt like you
had the right information, a medical
team that was supporting you, you were
aware of what could play out, which
would be potential C-section and vagina,
which to be honest, on the chats and
in, I've got a lot of multiple parent
friends, people are worried about that.
They, they are concerned
about whether they have that.
Again, I think majority of people
would say that the health of
the children's is paramount.
but of course.
It is a concern to have that or,
you know, whatever might happen.
Now, I wanted to ask, did you, did
you, were you, checked by a physio?
I've had the conversation with Jo
and found out, mind blowing, that
you can get checked as to whether,
you know, it's likely to go well.
with doing a, doing a vaginal delivery.
Were you checked by physio or
did you, just from having Jasper,
perhaps you were your physical, like
physically your body was in the right,
situation, like your, your cervix
stretch, I guess is what Jo said.
'cause if it can't stretch, then having,
a vaginal delivery can be an issue, which
is why you might need to see a physio.
So hence the question.
Dana Stephensen: Yes.
I wasn't aware that.
You can be checked beforehand.
I think it obviously was a
massive indication that it was
possible for me because I'd
already had a previous delivery.
I imagine that that's something that
most, um, people who were pregnant with
twins that might help their obstetrician
have that conversation with them.
I think, yeah, it's, again, I just
think we all feel confident, calm,
settled, prepared in different scenarios.
And for me, not having a plan
was the best thing I could do.
And I knew, I, I knew my body had
done it before, so that gave me some
confidence that it would be possible.
But if it wasn't possible, that was
going to be just the how it was.
Uh, I don't, I think the birth
of your children obviously.
Inform so much less for them probably,
but much more for you as the mother.
And it's the start of your journey.
and I, I know in the cases of some
really traumatic birth stories
that informs the start of their
journey and ongoing as well.
Um, having said that, just in my
own personal experience, I tried to
approach it that it was a day, it
was a day they were going to be born.
If it went the way I wanted or it
didn't want, parenting is for life.
You have the children for
a lot longer than that day.
It is just a day after all.
Perhaps sort of professional
experience in terms of what I did
for a living, I don't think it helped
being a professional dancer that I
was more active in labor or anything.
I know with my son, I
was induced with him and.
I couldn't believe the pain.
In some ways, you know, it, it
wasn't like I was more capable
or strong as an A because I
don't think it helps in that way.
I think as a dancer though, you
have a knowledge of your body
that is, is probably more felt and
intuitive about what it feels like.
We're used to being aware of our pelvic
floor and sort of how all our muscles work
and feelings in our muscles, and obviously
that sort of contracting feeling.
but birth is new and it's new for
everyone and you don't know how it
feels or how it goes until you're in it.
So for me it was just
important to trust my team.
And again, I met my team 10 days, two
weeks over Zoom before they were born.
it wasn't even that we'd
established a very long connection.
I just felt.
Immediate trust and confidence
in the team that they were
able to deal with any scenario.
Um, and having some pre ideas about
what birth was, but also about
my own body definitely helped.
And then on the flip side, after the
babies too, when it, when I got round to
it, understanding a lot more about pelvic
floor and all of your abdominal muscles
and pressure down through your ribs and
how that compresses your pelvic floor.
And, um, actually the physio who
you're talking about is wonderful.
And I saw her in between having
Jasper and the twins, actually
not at all pregnancy related.
Um, more so from a dancing perspective.
And I think it was the start another great
part of my education journey in that way.
And I think all women.
Especially all dancers would
benefit so greatly from seeing a
women's health physio much earlier
on, not in relation to pregnancy.
Then when you're in a pregnancy or birth,
post birth, you are much more likely
to feel confident, ready, able to pick
up the phone and it not feel like a new
thing, like a, oh, this is because I'm
having a problem, or it's actually just
a part of education in terms of your
body, and it's just actually really
helpful as a woman to know more about
how everything works and how things feel.
And it can improve lots
of areas of your life too.
Absolutely.
Separately to pregnancy.
Emily: Really great advice.
And I have to say, the more I
learn about physio, and again,
after having the twins and then
my own recovery journey, there's,
there's so much value there that I never
could comprehend before.
So thank you for sharing Dana Now Dana
I was gonna go into, I guess, after
having the girls and, and your story
there, the feeding and and sleep piece.
Was there anything really notable,
you want to call out there?
Dana Stephensen: Uh, Again,
everyone's journey is different.
Um, breastfed the girls till they
were seven months exclusively,
which is probably one of the
hardest things I've ever done.
Um, it, yeah, it was very taxing.
And again, it was the particular
time it was too with COVID and,
um, there was no getting out.
There was no mother's groups, there's
no library, there was no out and about,
there was no picnics in the park.
Playgrounds were closed for my.
Older child.
Uh, it was a, it was pretty
dire and you know, you were
just isolated at home a lot.
Um, if it was in a different setting,
maybe I wouldn't have done it this way,
but basically I started breastfeeding and
it was working and they were thriving.
Um, so I breastfed them together at
the same time, always day and night.
So I was on the pillow thrown
on my bed, um, many times.
So I had two breastfeeding pillows
to get them high enough actually,
which I found better than just the one
pillow.
Emily: Which ones because I'm
Dana Stephensen: Um, I
is that right?
The twin Zee and then the other
twin
Emily: My Brest friend,
Dana Stephensen: one.
Yes, So I put that underneath.
And then I had the twin Z
on top because they were too
low, but it was quite a contraption too.
But it worked.
And then with towels over,
and then the football hold.
I found if I fed them separately, um,
again, twins are, it might be different
with identical twins, but being
fraternal twins, they are not identical.
So they, they had different,
you know, a different suck.
One took more than the other
if I fed them separately.
For me it was more time consuming.
Um, I tried feeding them on
demand for two days and then I
didn't sleep for 48 hours at all.
And then we went back
to being on a schedule.
I'm really good at being in
a routine and a schedule.
My life has been very structured like
that, but I must admit, compared to a
singleton, it felt really unnatural.
How much you were just like
tied to always being the same.
Both up.
Both down.
One slept for 10 minutes.
Okay.
Both back up again.
All of that.
But you tell me to be on a schedule
and I will be on a schedule.
So I was asleep to the schedule.
again, I look back and it was
really hard and at times I wished
it didn't have to be that way.
with an older child as well, if
they weren't on a schedule, I
really would've had no time for him
and his care, let alone my care.
So it, again, it's all a
compromise and it was sort of
like the best of what we could do.
But by the end of my breastfeeding journey
though, they were thriving, but I was not.
And I think that was a really important
piece in me recovering from my postnatal
depression was beginning to wean and
they, they were ready enough and,
they transitioned well enough to a
formula they liked and seeing visually
them being fed by someone else.
Instead of me and the effort it takes to
look after yourself as well when you're
And they were thriving I look at thing.
photos of them And they
were big, bouncing,
kids but I They were
happy was not thriving.
And it was a really important piece to
be able to say, okay, I am not thriving
and we need to do something about that.
This is not just about them getting this.
they transitioned to formula.
They were happy with their bottles.
And I regained not just my body
back, but my energy, a bit of
energy back hormonally, your, your
hormonal profile changes when you're
breastfeeding to when you are not.
And that was a really important
shift that kick started my recovery.
I think that would be just something
I'd, I'd sort of mention in my
own experience only that that.
Breastfeeding is wonderful, and
if it works for you, it's great.
And if it doesn't, that's fine too.
But me, making that change was a really
big difference in how I was and how
I could care for my babies and how I
could get some version of balance back
to feel like there was more to life
than sitting on a bed feeding them
like that, you know, eight times a day.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah, it's quite relentless
for anyone that doesn't have,
uh, twins, that piece there.
Anyone that says, oh, I had kids
very close together, not the same
as football, double breastfeeding,
and suddenly one doesn't latch,
and oh my goodness, absolutely not.
so Dana you mentioned,
postnatal depression.
I think, it'd be great to speak
about that a bit more, and for
anyone listening overseas, it was a
record, the worlds longest lockdown
in Melbourne, Australia, 235 days.
So you were right in the thick of that.
So I guess you mentioned
a little bit there.
I'd love to hear I guess, how you
started to manage out of that.
Some tips for the audience.
I know there are a few questions
from people that have just been
diagnosed, recently in your audience.
And, I'd love you to, I guess talk a
little bit more about that and what you
would advise to those who are struggling
or potentially might, uh, have it later.
Dana Stephensen: Yeah, I mean it's, it's,
really, it's a tough subject because, um.
No one wants this.
Like, no one wants this to be them.
And you hear about it and it's a little
bit like, oh, if I think about it or
like, hear about it or listen to it,
it'll happen to me like it's contagious.
or that's how I sort of used to feel.
And you just hope that
it doesn't happen to you.
and I wouldn't wish it on anyone,
but it is, it is not your fault.
And if you do experience
postnatal depression or
anxiety, it is not your fault.
You did not wish it, you did
not think it on upon yourself.
did not, um, bring it on through anything
except, you know, a multitude of factors.
One of them being is a massive hormonal
shift, especially after multiples.
and then there are many
situational factors as well.
For us, it was COVID,
it was lockdown city.
After we had the girls in Brisbane,
we had to go back to Sydney so
Lockie could go back to work.
So we had to travel down with the
twins when they were four weeks old.
Um, and that's when it started, sort
of started to kick in, you know,
the sleep deprivation in itself for
some people, but for us was huge.
And again, having an older child that
you are used to being able to look after
and not being able to look after them and
trying to spend every second that you're
not with the twins up, down, up, down
with an older child who's also adjusting.
Jasper flew up actually from Melbourne.
Um, we met him at the airport at the time.
He was escorted by a police officer
and a nurse from the plane to us.
I hadn't seen him in three months.
He, it was a big shift for him.
It was a big shift for us.
Um, there were a lot of factors.
were premeditating my
postnatal depression.
And I was very fortunate to have a very
experienced maternal child health nurse.
So someone who you go to
periodically to check your babies.
But from the very first meeting
with her, she, said, let's
just like, the babies are fine.
I wanna talk about you.
She could see it so clearly and
really got me, I guess, able
to admit how I was feeling.
And she sort of got me through
to a service in New South Wales
called Traccel, which helps with
settling, um, sleep and settling.
She helped get me through to the Gidget
Foundation to get on the list and then
to be able to see a psychologist via
telehealth, so over Zoom or the telephone.
Um, it, for someone who's, you know,
quite resilient and I've built a
lot of resilience through my career.
It's always hard to admit that you're
not doing well and that you're not
coping, and also the reflection
on that you are not coping or you
are not feeling like yourself.
There is a fundamental brain hormonal
difference about that, which is not
just putting a smile on your face.
It is compounded by lack of sleep.
It is compounded by global pandemic and
lockdowns and no one having a normal life.
It's compounded by that lack of
perspective when you're in your home and
you don't go see other mothers with other
babies, other twin groups who their babies
don't sleep either, and you walk away
going, Hey, we're all in this together.
It felt like very, very isolating
and not the village we all talk about
in terms of raising kids and the
impact of having other people around
the library to go to, for example.
Um, but it is not.
I had to come to understand
it was not my fault.
I did not bring this on upon myself.
There was also no quick fix.
There are options.
And one of those options
for me was therapy.
And having that weekly telehealth
appointment when I canceled it
because the day was too hard.
I would notice, again, a
drop in how I was feeling.
It sort of became a bookmark in
my week, even if I had to hold
the girls at the same time.
To be able to talk to someone, um, I
always felt better after breastfeeding
piece again, for me was a big, um, shift,
not just from a hormonal perspective.
When you breastfeed, as I said,
your hormonal profile is not
the same as if you weren't.
Um, also for me it was exercise and
that's really hard to achieve always
other than, you know, walking around
the house or around the park that late
nap in the day you're trying to get in.
but every piece of movement
and exercise helped.
And for me, that was when Locke
said too, especially as I was not
gonna be breastfeeding and needed
to be with them all the time, was
to have the space to go dance again.
And there were so many several layers to
that, which was getting outta the bubble
at home, which felt scary and foreign.
I, you know, I hadn't even driven
the car because you didn't need to
in COVID, you couldn't go anywhere.
going back to my workplace was a comfort.
I'd been there so long, but the director
had changed, so the boss had changed, and
I knew him, but didn't know him very well.
The, there was discomfort in that.
It was, it had moved on without me.
And also I had transformed,
but no one could see that.
Um, but it was a safe space to go
and start from like baby steps of
just thinking about me for a second.
It's very, and I just think with
twins, with any kids, but with twins,
because of how relentless those early
years are, it's really hard to choose
yourself in any of those moments.
And again, like I said, with Jasper and
he was homeschooling, he'd just started
school and fortunately it was only prep,
but he still had a school experience to
have and trying to manage that as well.
not just gonna choose, I'm just
gonna go for a walk, or I'm
just gonna look after myself.
Self care is, um, pretty luxurious
world word in that sort of world.
dancing, actually.
Gave me that.
It was like I allowed myself to do that,
to be away from the kids, from away
from the babies because I went to work.
Um, even though it, it, it wasn't
work to start with, uh, it was
just sort of finding myself again.
yeah, my, my main advice is there is
there is help there, there is support
there and it is hard to access that
help you can't admit it, that you are
not feeling great and you just because
your motherhood experience starts this
way does not mean it will continue in
that way and it won't last forever.
But sort of admitting and being
able to have that conversation
with your partner, your family,
and just saying, you know what?
I, I really am not enjoying this.
does not mean you don't love your kids.
That does not mean that
they're not attached to you.
They are attached to you.
And always will be.
You might not feel close to them.
You might not feel that bond
that everyone talks about.
It might not be glowy, it might
not be, and it will be in time,
but it, it might not be right now.
And that's okay.
But you need to thrive, I guess, or
get closer to thriving instead of just
us focusing on the babies thriving.
Um, and once I could sort of turn that
around myself, which was through support
and help, and not being as hard on
myself, which took practice and being
a perfectionist and being in ballet,
you are, you are pursuing excellence.
So, uh, being a mother and having the
mindset of pursuing this excellence
does not really correlate finding
that space of like good enough.
And finding the language of what that
is, finding the triggers of what sets
that off, and somehow finding with help
with a therapist, with support to be
able to find that place of compassion
for yourself that this is hard.
It's okay to say it's hard,
so say it, you know, okay.
To say, I just wish I could sleep more.
Um, there's gonna be concessions,
the house will be a mess.
All of the things.
But just trying allow yourself that sort
of compassion and build on those steps
to get better and you will get better.
And for some, for some women,
medication is, is a great option.
And for me, I, I didn't go there,
but that was an option on my, you
know, availability of options.
But there is help out there and there's
obviously a stigma and there's a shame
that mothers shouldn't feel this way.
Um.
a lot of mothers do actually.
And I think if we're actually honest,
and I like to think the only things I
like to put into this space is honesty.
I don't try to be negative, but I do
think have, having discussions about
honest experiences is, is important.
If you actually look at having
kids beyond the baby years, there's
hard times with 10 year olds,
there's hard times with teenagers.
Why do we not expect or acknowledge or
just accept there's, there's gonna be
hard times with babies where we don't
like it or we don't feel like ourselves
then too, you just might not have had
any other experiences with teenagers
yet 'cause you're not there yet.
Yeah, Yeah, so that's,
that's what I have to offer.
Emily: that's really good.
And thank you for being so honest and so
generous with sharing that information.
Because it is common, and I know
this now from speaking to other
friends, I have another friend that
breastfed mostly exclusively with
her twins and had some challenges.
And then the mom of quadruplets, Taylah,
who I interviewed recently, she had
it and she called Panda, P-A-N-D-A.
Those and, I'm actually having
them on a little while as well.
Uh, but there are a lot
of, I guess, support.
So I think I, I'd summarize there.
So I think.
Going into having any pregnancy,
whether it's multiples or not, because
not all listeners are going to be
potentially having multiple babies.
being aware that it's possible
and knowing, again, that pressure
off, I think you said really
well, that it's not your fault.
There's hormonal, hormonal, hormonal,
uh, and there's also that biological,
uh, drive that, you know, mothers
care for the children, et cetera.
That kind of energy that happens as well.
so knowing to get support.
So if you've got in your country,
the support systems where the,
nurses or or midwives come around
and do checks, they're really well
educated in Australia, they rate you.
I remember them telling me I was
going to get rated and feeling
like, oh my God, it's like school.
I, I didn't have it.
luckily, but that's another story.
But, Knowing that there's support there.
Online therapists is a great call
out, especially if you're a new
parent and you can't get to them.
So people please note that down if you
know people that are having challenges
or if you're in the midst of it.
and then finding that time for yourself.
because I think you are right.
It's very hard, especially when
you've got a new baby or an older
kid to look after or multiple babies.
It is so hard to not prioritize them,
especially that first, I'd say first year.
and so knowing to like even little
things, if, if you can do that,
find avenues, because I think
a, a lot of us are not in that.
A historical cave community we
used to be in, which is you've got
aunties and uncles and sisters.
Everyone helped with the babies
back in the day and now, you can
have part of that, or, or not have
that as, as, much as they used to.
So I think lots of really good insights
there, Dana So thanks for sharing.
so I'm going to, uh, work on
wrapping us up, but I, I want to
just, talk about that rebuilding.
So you went back, and
you did ballet again.
So I think it was postpartum
about seven months.
You started having discussions 12 months
after you were back on the stage at 35
years old after two pregnancies, which
is, is that, have I got that data right?
Dana Stephensen: Something like that.
Emily: That's why research
says, and then we, well, they
seem like they're good sources.
so that metamorphosis of, of going back to
it, you, you found, You, looked after that
piece of yourself, which need nurturing.
So I've got that as a, as a, quote as
well and then eventually you've retired.
So do you want to just, talk about
that final performance going into
retirement and then, the, metamorphosis
is to, to where, where, to next
or where you're at now as well?
Dana Stephensen: so I, I, danced,
I think I was, the girls were
15 months about then when I did
my first show after having them.
And I actually didn't expect to
dance again after having the twins,
just given the circumstances of
twins, um, traveling like we.
I knew the, the job, which is a
job, but it never felt like that.
Um, my career is, is, was
demanding and it demanded travel.
It demanded lots of
movement for the family.
My son was in school.
Um, so I didn't actually
expect to dance again.
I thought I would just not
come back after the twins.
in the end, life happened differently
and I'm so grateful that Lachie start
me to again, um, for myself initially.
And then it, it, it, was without a goal
actually at first because normally
there's a performance you or a
season or ballet you're getting
ready for, but I, I wasn't actually.
And then a performance came
up to be a part of a season
and, it was a ballet I loved.
And then I actually ended
up doing the principal
Serenade the principal roles in Um.
Last minute actually.
And that was my first show back.
And that was, that was that feeling of
triumph that only people close to me knew
how far I'd come since having the girls.
to reclaim that part of myself and reclaim
that joy and I think reclaim part of me
that wasn't about how good you are at
being a mom or how good, how well your
babies sleep, or how they're fed or all
the things it was, it was a, was the part
of me that was separate to that, that it
was really nice to celebrate her as well.
Um.
I danced with the Australian Ballet
for almost a further two years
after that, and it was the best time
of my career, so I'm so grateful.
I went back, after you've had these
really challenging experiences, the,
the silver linings, the blessings,
which you don't see at the time when
you're in the depths of the depression.
you can't see that.
But the perspective you gain from those
really challenging times is the full
appreciation of when things are really
good and when things feel really good and
for how hard you had to actually work to
get back to that, not just physically.
People ask me about the physical aspect
of returning to professional ballet and
that me was just something that happened.
I know it was hard work, but it.
It almost like I wasn't aware of that.
For me, it was the emotional and mental
journey of being able to be myself again
then managing the touring load, managing
touring to Sydney, um, for two months
at a time and juggling Jasper away.
And, um, my husband Lockie performs
with the Wiggles all over the
world, so he travels all the time.
we have lots of moving parts and I got
really, really good at managing it all
and it was incredible what I could do,
but it was never going to be sustainable,
which is why I threw everything at it I
could for two years and took everything I
possibly can and just loved every second.
I did lots of new ballets.
girls were growing.
They were healthy.
They had a beautiful nanny who
looked after them and our families
helped and was a busy time, but
it was a very fulfilling time.
So when the time came for me to.
myself, it was time to move on.
Um, it felt like I was ready.
It was a natural progression.
It was a time to celebrate
what I'd achieved.
And then it led to my last shows in
Melbourne where my family could watch.
And then my final shows in
London at the Royal Opera House,
which was incredibly special.
I, I was a little girl from Brisbane who,
you know, started off doing jazz actually.
And, and then I ended up
finishing incredible career
with the national company at
the Royal Opera House in London.
So, it was a real celebration of that.
Um, and then looking ahead to us moving
back to Brisbane and having our settled
sort of family life here and, um, having
our kids grow up where we grew up.
And I am the one at home
all the time now, and it's.
It's sort of just as busy actually.
Um, and the girls start school next
year, so that's another transition again.
But it has been a big change of pace and
a massive transition from doing something
I've loved, like I said, since I was three
and now, now there's an absence of that.
and I think because I have had some
mental health challenges in the past,
including that time with postnatal
depression, given me some tools.
Definitely it's given me strategies, it's
given me an ability to say, you know what?
I feel like, you know, I
need some help with this.
And I've actually seen a really
great psychologist for the past
year, 18 months, and we worked
through a lot of these things.
And some of these things are still from
when the girls were born during COVID.
like to think that that's
all just in the past.
And I think sometimes when
you've had challenges.
can feel like, oh, is that still there?
But actually that informed a lot of
their early life and my as a twin
parent, uh, in the first few years.
And working also too, reflecting on
and working on what, what served me in
the ballet world, what served me, what
worked in the ballet profession, what
was rewarded even in that profession.
what success looks like, uh, how much
of a perfectionist I am without actually
knowing I was, uh, and then you, you
try to translate that to a full-time
mom, the person who's here for it all,
for, you know, all the appointments
and all the drop offs and buying the
birthday presents and Oh, I've got that.
And managing the family and managing.
and their development, their feelings
and growing emotions changes.
What are 10 year old's like
compared to a 5-year-old?
I feel like I'm so all in this now,
but learning, I'm learning a lot.
I'm learning new skills and I'm
learning new ways of approaching things.
That ballet, was different.
You can put lots of hard work in,
in ballet and be really successful.
You can put lots of hard work in at home.
And what does success look like?
What does it feel like?
It's different.
So it's been a big adjustment and I'm
grateful that I've had this time with
them, where I haven't been focused on
ballet, which is, is a very self-focused
and demanding sort of career.
it does lead to sort of what's next and.
There's lots of spaces I'd like to
work in, and I feel like my energy or
my particular could of knowledge could
be, be valid in, and I'm just sort of
looking at and exploring what that is.
Um, dance is always going to be
a part of my life in some way.
Um, and hopefully there'll
be some space for that too.
But, yeah, there's, it's,
for the first time in my life
actually, it's like a blank page.
which as a 3-year-old growing up in
ballet and just always looking ahead,
always looking towards that, next
goal, that next exam, that next ballet,
that next career choice, you know,
that next, role not there anymore.
So I'm just navigating the
sort of open space now.
Emily: So exciting.
I mean, such a different part of life
and I think, again, very relatable.
A lot of, a lot of, parents end
up where you are, where they're
changing from whatever career,
whatever they did before to being.
full time
carers
So really exciting for you.
Uh, question, do you want to share some
of the ideas of what you want to do?
So the audience here, and maybe
someone's friend of a friend?
Or do you wanna wait and see up to you?
You can put the energy out there, or
you can, you can, you can lead that as
a surprise and, and see what's coming.
Dana Stephensen: I, honestly, I've got
all these ideas that come to me, you know,
when you're like in the car or, yeah.
I just think the idea of being creative
again, excites me and I, I've lived a very
creative life and it's been in one domain,
one medium, and one version of something,
a very structured version as well.
Um, my day was structured
every day, um, but.
only sort of more, now I can see how much
energy I was around other creatives as
well, and that I am actually by nature a
creative person and it's sort of looking
where I can put creativity into the world.
I do like writing and I would love
to write a book, but I don't even,
you know, I'm still sort of working
out what sort of space that's into.
Um, but again, it's also
recognizing the seasons of life.
And
there are lots of things I could do and
I'd love to do my Pilates training and
um, there's certain things like that.
But in terms of balancing the family and
balancing the family's energy, throwing
myself into a really demanding career
now is not the space I need to be in.
and so the part of that is acknowledging
that I've actually done that.
Like I've, I've really done
that, so I don't need to be as
successful doing something else.
It's sort of making peace with that.
Like I've been already lucky
to have been successful and so
fulfilled something I love and I
might not find something I love.
Next.
I might find something I like
a lot I enjoy doing, but it
might not be my life's passion.
But I have my family as my purpose
now and my passion and having
time with them really matters.
And then in a few years time,
things will shift again in
terms of kids getting older.
And I'm just hoping I can
continue to develop my creativity
Emily: Exciting.
Well, look, I am so excited and I love how
obviously, so wise and so much perspective
you've had from your journey from that,
you know, little girl who started out
through all the way to performing around
the world and, uh, motherhood times
two, pregnancies and three children.
I'm excited, definitely write a book.
I think that would be great.
but Dana I think that's a
really good note to end on.
So thank you so much for sharing today.
I've really enjoyed having you on
and I think this will be a really
valuable episode for a lot of people.
Thank
Dana Stephensen: Thank you so much
I've loved talking to you, and it's,
yeah, it's always lovely to hear
different people's experiences, so you.
Emily: Very welcome.
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