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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
tyson (00:00.401)
There we go. Dude, so good to officially meet you. I was saying that based on your background alone, I know that I've got the right man for this particular podcast. And I reckon there's no better way for me to jump into the actual conversation than to let you know, I finished running competitively in like 2014. I'm still training. I still love it. I'm out there a few times a week running around. But one thing that blew my mind from 2014, going back into a running store at the start of 2023,
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (00:01.414)
sweet yeah
tyson (00:29.521)
was I had absolutely no idea what I was looking at in terms of running shoes anymore. That nine years or that decade was mind blowing in terms of what it was I was looking at, what had happened with shoe technology. So with that in mind, I had done a little bit of research, which is how I actually bumped into your name and came across Doctors of Running. I thought as a way to launch this bad boy, I'm gonna throw the question at you. When someone looks at a running shoe,
What is it they're looking at? The amount of comments or questions that I get, hey Tys, what kind of running shoe should I buy? I'm like, we've never met, I don't know. Let me ask this guy for you.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (01:06.25)
So obviously the terrible answer that my students and a lot of people hate is it depends, but let me put that in perspective. After years and years of doing this, and I got my start in the running industry, so working and running retail, and then asked so many questions that people were like, I can't answer this anymore. So that's where the website, Dr. Running started, was me trying to educate people and bring them along my journey, trying to figure this out. I have the same question all the time, right? To this day, even though I'm very fortunate, if you can see those watching, my background, I got a lot of stuff that I'm very fortunate to test.
I'm still looking for that perfect shoe. I don't think it exists. So that's the key part. My first thing is there's no such thing as a perfect shoe, but what you are looking for when you're looking for a running shoe is trying to find some vehicle that is gonna match your needs and your body the best. And the best place to start is, what are you gonna be using them for? Are you gonna be using trail, road? Are you gonna be using easy? Do you wanna do fast workouts? Are you just getting into this? And then the second part is honestly like, get your feet in it. To be honest with you,
All the stuff and apologies to everybody working and running retail right now. If somebody puts you up on the treadmill and looks at your running by mechanics, that's not a valid or reliable way to predict what running shoe's gonna work for you. You need to go, what type of shoe do I want? What am I gonna use it for? Get some options and then get your feet in them. Because believe it or not, thanks to actually some awesome people in Australia who came up with this research, we found that your fit and feel is actually way more predictive of what shoe's gonna work for you.
than like looking at biomechanics and all this kind of stuff. So there is still some, when you get down to the nitty gritty and we'll talk about this when it comes to biomechanics and things you can look at. But to be honest with you when you're starting out, just get something on your feet. And if it's comfortable, go get used to running, right? Don't, try not to make it too complicated. If you want to come make it complicated, that's where the fun starts. But first, get your feet in something. If it's comfortable, move forward and go run.
tyson (03:01.229)
Isn't that funny? Because the number one bit of advice whenever you go and get your shoes fitted, or the standout bit of technology that any shoe store has here in Australia is, hey, we're not just gonna put you into a random shoe, we're gonna get you up on our treadmill, and we're gonna have a look at your run for 30 seconds at just a jog, and we're gonna recommend a shoe based on what we see. And I hear that, and I go, that makes sense, perfect. You're gonna see the way my foot lands, you're gonna see if there's any pronation, supernation, you're gonna see what's going on there.
And then I get off, they show me a video which just adds a little bit of fuel to my fire of how bright they must be. And they explain it with such confidence. And then I walk out with a $300 pair of shoes going, well, surely these are right. So why do you think people are falling into that trap of, just, cause it seems like a fairly healthy foundation to start from, doesn't it? To look at the actual structure of the way that your feet are moving as you hit the ground, rather than just how comfortable something is.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (03:35.134)
Right, yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (03:49.793)
Right.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (03:56.674)
So it makes from a bi, and I say this as a biomechanist, somebody who's finishing up a PhD in biomechanics, it makes complete sense to do that. However, if you look at the evidence that starts to get diluted really quick. First of all, again, I worked in running retail for years. You are not gonna have the appropriate training to visually understand what somebody's biomechanics are doing, because what you see at the foot isn't just occurring at the foot, it's a result, and it's also influencing what's happening at the knee, the hip, and the spine.
Somebody who works in running retail is not going to have the training to appropriately diagnose what's going on. It's also not legal, at least in the United States, it's not legal for them to do that. And they certainly don't have the training. The same thing is done here. But what we found is things get so complicated. There's so many variables that if you look at somebody's pronation supination, unless they have a history of pronation related injuries, that's not a valid way to fit somebody's shoes, right?
So actually putting somebody that pronates that's never had an injury history of that stuff in a stability shoe isn't valid. And we actually know that. So the evidence is showing, yeah, pronation isn't a demonic word. It just, it describes emotion. It's a combination of inversion, dorsiflexion and abduction at the foot. It's just a biomechanical term. It's not a pathology, but people have.
thought it's a pathology, it's actually something you need. People that don't pronate actually have an increased risk of stress structures because they can't shock absorb. So this demonic word is not demonic at all. And we realize, hey, this is totally wrong. So that pronation paradigm doesn't work because it's just a certain motion. So a lot of that, you know, the old, how I was trained back in running stores is you pronate this much, I'm gonna give you this arbitrary number of degrees. You go into the Brooks beast, you go into a motion control. You pronate a little bit, you get a mild stability issue. You have a, your foot doesn't move.
get a neutral shoe. It's more complicated than that. And unfortunately that type of biomechanical model doesn't work. We've tested it, we've tested a lot and unfortunately it doesn't work. And the other thing is you can actually have, it's not saying that stability shoes don't work, but you can have lots of people where their foot's gonna move a lot in the shoe and you can't see it. There's good evidence suggested that we were trying to predict how people's heels move by putting markers. Like, so what I do in a motion capture lab.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (06:15.21)
you put these little reflective dots on the shoe and their body and that's how you track their motion. The evidence suggests if you put that on the outside of a shoe on the heel, their heel bone is actually doing something completely different. So you're not actually measuring what you think you do. And that's why it's a great tool. I loved doing that because even though it really wasn't helpful for the person, it was great biomechanics practice and gait analysis for me before PT for four physio school. But...
Is it a reliable way of fitting people? No, because it's so complicated, honestly, but it's some of the only predictive things that we've really found for the general population has been get your foot in it. If it feels like there's enough flexibility in the front, if the heel and forefoot cushioning feel good for you, you might like a little, you don't know until you put your foot in that. Does it feel stable enough? Is it too stable or too flexible? And then how's the fit up top? Those are the five things from the Runcat.
Which I'm forgetting his first name, but Bishop et al out of Australia actually came up with and so that's what we've kind of found That's why it makes sense intuitively, but then when you we've actually tested a scientist, it's Not shaping up well for the majority of the population, but there are some people that are some of those biomechanics that do work It's just not everyone
tyson (07:30.833)
That is mind blowing to hear. It's so funny because I, obviously you can tell based on the way I started this conversation around my running shoe knowledge, I'm nowhere near where you are in terms of what you know about both the structure of the foot, the structure of shoes, and why you put in something in particular. But I've worked in a, how many running stores have I worked in? I'm trying to think, at least one. And when I was 19, I was living in South Australia and I had that very basic training. I think it was a 10 minute conversation. They said, all right.
Here's our wall of shoes. These are the ones with a lot of support for people with flat feet. These are ones with no support for people with high arches. When they come in, if they don't wanna go on the treadmill, ask them to take their shoes and socks off, look at their feet. If they've got flat feet, put them in something with heaps of support. If they've got arches, put them in something with no support. And I thought, oh, that's relatively easy. That makes a lot of sense. And I mean, to an untrained ear, it does sound quite impressive. I never would have thought about the shape of my arches and
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (08:27.809)
Right.
tyson (08:27.837)
how that affected the foot. But obviously when you expand that out, the shape of the foot is, I guess, the end of a movement. It's not the movement as a whole. So the idea of that ever being something to realistically measure how effective a shoe is based solely on the shape of an arch, it does seem absurd, but I just maybe never had the confidence to say it out loud. To be fair, never really thought about it too much.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (08:36.916)
Right.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (08:45.802)
Right.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (08:52.586)
Right, and to be fair, I'm gonna toss this back at you because I had the same experience working running stores. That is exactly how I was taught, is that this arch shape, this kind of stuff. And then you start realizing as you fit people and you ask, how does that feel? And they're like, oh, this feels terrible. Like I've got this low arch foot position. And I'm like, okay, well, I'll give you a shoe with extra arch. Like this feels terrible. And I was like, okay, let's try a neutral shoe. Like, oh, this feels so much better. This is what I usually wear. I'm like, why didn't you tell me that earlier? So honestly, I think one, but to be fair,
If you were starting somebody in a running store, what like paradigm would you give them knowing what you know now to try to simplify things, right? It's, I kind of get it now. Even if it didn't work, it gives you something to work off of initially, but the actual answer gets way more complicated. That's been a journey that I've been going, well, I'm getting all this knowledge and stuff is really complicated. How do we simplify this down? And it's my opinion that honestly,
tyson (09:33.234)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (09:47.998)
you need as a salesperson or running store, you need to have a conversation with people. Go, hey, what are you gonna be using this for? What's your experience? What's worked for you? What hasn't worked for you? And if you've got good shoe knowledge in running retail, you should be able to go, oh, that's worked for you? I know a shoe kind of similar to that. Or maybe we still have that. Or yeah, actually a new version of that shoe, totally different. You can try it, but just giving you a heads up, you might like this one. So that's, I feel like the conversational piece.
that subjective examine, like talking to people is so important, that's what's lost and that's what I learned. Then it's get the person involved in their own, like their own decision-making, which is very, this is very similar to how I train physios, right? Whether residency with my students, it's the same thing. We're like, get their feet in the shoes and help guide them. Let them make the decision, but let them figure it out because you are starting them on a journey to go there. They should walk out of that store.
not just with, oh, the shoes, but the experience going, wow, they really taught me something. I have a better idea what to look for next time. And each time they come in, hopefully they should have a better time coming in. That's where I think what we should be doing in running retail is learning how to really talk to people. That's because that's something I intuitively ended up learning by accident is because I'm like, wait a minute, this isn't working as well as I want. Let me ask some questions. And it learned, I got a lot better at communicating with people. And that was one of the best things to come out of working and running retail.
tyson (10:58.107)
Yeah.
tyson (11:12.197)
Sure, see I feel like I can just hear people's heads exploding now as they hear this because it's years literally It was what's that 17 years ago that I was giving that advice from what I can tell the running stores that I've been into Even recently not much on the retail front has really changed the treadmills I've got a bit fancy the iPads and the apps that they use to show you the actual movement of your foot Looks a bit better. So with that as a sales pitch I mean, it's really easy as I said to the untrained ear to go. Okay. Well that makes a whole lot of sense I know you
already shared a couple of little starting points as to what you might wanna look like or look for when you're looking for an effective shoe for you as an individual. But how much has, do you think the industry's let people down overall? Because obviously there's gonna be some level of effectiveness that a shoe has for a particular style of running, but maybe with an asterisk next to it, it might be quite minor in comparison to what it is that we've been told. Like,
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (11:59.614)
Yeah.
tyson (12:08.101)
What are some more effective measures, apart from just the feel of the shoe for an athlete, that could be things to look at when we're trying to figure out how effective this shoe is for, you know, maybe it's our weight, maybe it's the distance we're running, how long we've been running. I mean, there's so many things under the umbrella to consider, isn't there?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (12:13.271)
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (12:24.854)
Well, let's even talk about those things. So there's actually very good evidence out there that weight really isn't the best predictor of what kind of shoe you should want. So we got asked about this here going, make a running shoe page for heavier runners. And we're like, okay, well, let's go look at the research because my experience has been a lot of the shoes will work just fine. So what we've found and what we've experienced is the only shoes that don't typically tend to work for heavier runners as much, or at least it's not that it doesn't work. Let me clarify that.
there tends to be a higher injury risk is in minimal footwear. So really, if you're a heavier runner, if you're a larger runner, just make sure you have something that's at least moderately cushioned. If you wanna do some of that minimalist stuff, ease into it, because you got a little higher injury risk. The opposite is true. Thanks to Laurent Maslow, also one of the guys I mentioned who's a phenomenal researcher over in Europe, found that the only people that actually benefit from more cushioning, which is the stereotype that we generally put heavier runners into.
It's heavier runners don't benefit or get any injury protection from more cushioned shoes. It's only lighter runners that actually have a decreased injury risk in highly cushioned shoes. So if you're a heavier runner, the other day it's like, well, if you're starting out, you might want something with a little bit of cushion. Outside of that, find something that's comfortable, right? And move forwards. If you're a lighter runner just starting out, you might want a little bit more on that higher end of cushioning as you get used to dealing with shock absorption than move forwards.
So some of those key points, right, it's like going, well, we keep coming back to, at the end of the day, as little as you like it, you need to get your foot in there and try some stuff. Until you get into the little fancy realm, which I can talk for hours on like all the biomechanics of the shoe, you gotta get past stage one, which is just start running and get your feet in something. And oftentimes a neutral, just starting out in a neutral shoe, if you don't have any injury history, just go and try it out. You gotta get used to it. Cause then at the end of the day, also with experienced runners,
I hope as an experienced runner, you're not just throwing yourself in whatever and you're starting to learn what works for you because that's one of the most important parts of trying a shoe and experiencing it is going, did I like this? Did I not like this? And then being able to predict as soon as you put your foot in something, you should get better at knowing quicker, is this gonna work for me or not?
tyson (14:29.457)
Hmm.
tyson (14:37.645)
Yeah, it sounds counterintuitive, doesn't it? You'd think a heavier runner would be a runner who needs more cushioning. Like, obviously there's more weight going through the lower limbs, surely there's a little bit of a need. So what's the story behind why it is that a lighter runner is actually more inclined to need more cushioning?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (14:52.83)
So what we've seen, so let me go to the heavier runners, is believe it or not, when you are heavier, you actually shock absorb better, believe it or not, because you typically have more mass. So if you have more mass, be it muscle mass, fat mass, when you land, guess what helps absorb that impact? So that tissue also helps absorb, when you land, the forces that go into your leg, fat mass, muscle mass, all that stuff, the more of it is that there is, the more that shock gets dissipated. So,
tyson (15:10.789)
Hmm.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (15:22.35)
a normal shoe is fine. With a lighter runner, especially one, a lighter runner that doesn't know how to shock absorb well, because that's running is a series of single leg hops, right, your large impact, there's a lot of forces. So the biggest thing you need to learn is how do I deal with these forces? That's why runners, when they start to like, I am so sore, like why the heck do people do this? This is dumb, like why would you, I'm so sore all the time. You're learning to absorb force. So lighter runners don't have as much there to dissipate those forces. So they're
is a potential for an increased risk of stress-related injury, like stress fractures, stuff like that. So a little bit more cushioning, the theory is, actually might be better for that group. So lighter runners typically tend to need a little bit more cushioning than heavier runners do, at least when they start out. Then when they specialize and go, hey, I'm actually really interested in this type of shoe, if you get experience, you can wear almost whatever. I say almost, as I say, there's always gonna be stuff that doesn't work for you.
I'll credit to Simon Bartold on this, we were talking one time, and he once said, there is no shoe that can prevent injury, but there's a lot of them that can cause it. And I've had that as someone who tests a lot of shoes, that is something that always makes me nervous when we get a new one in, I'm like, is this gonna be the one that knocks me out for a couple of days? Because I've had that happen where I'm like, I gotta get miles on these, and I'm like, oh, this is not working, but I'll slog through it. I've been very fortunate, my body's adapted to being a little bit flexible on that realm, but doesn't always work.
tyson (16:28.015)
Hmm.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (16:48.114)
I've had a couple injuries just from wearing something that really wasn't working for me. So.
tyson (16:52.533)
Yeah, I wanna put a pin in that because I wanna come back to that specifically about the shoes that can cause injury. But before I get too far away from it, I wanna ask you a little bit more about this cushioning. So one thing that I often noticed with elite runners when I was growing up, so what am I, probably about 2006 to 2010, was a lot of the elite runners, they would switch and swap their shoes. Now I don't know whether this was just to get a little bit more wear out of the shoes or whether this was actually.
to just be able to tap into the cushioning that was within the shoes. Like obviously, giving the actual cushioning a little bit of a chance to raise back up in between runs was one theory that I heard. Obviously, on a cost front, that can be a little bit difficult because not everyone's got $600, $900 to have, not yet that amount for sure, for everyone listening. Matt actually has all of the shoes behind him.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (17:39.451)
Or running a shoe website. Half the reason they started. No, I'm just kidding.
tyson (17:47.969)
So all the shoes that you want unfortunately on his back shelf but the one thing that I was lucky enough when I picked up a sponsorship through added us when I was about 21 and Just because I had always seen it. I was given a heap of shoes and I was like, alright Well now I'll start just cycling through the shoes because I can I'm not paying for it I mean, it's what all the good runners do. Is there anything in that or is that placebo? What's going on with the with the actual cycling through various shoes?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (18:14.978)
So the actual evidence, again, going back to Laurent Maslow, one of the few things that we know decreases injury risk in runners is strength training and having a shoe rotation. Now, it doesn't even mean you have 40 shoes, but being able to cycle through a couple of them actually has been found to decrease your injury risk. The theory is that because you're exposing your body to a couple different ways these forces are coming into your body, it's essentially like cross-training. So you kind of cycle through.
Different tissues get loaded, so not one gets overloaded all the time. Now there's certain people who love, they just want the same shoe all the time. I'll power to them, that's great. There's others where financially that doesn't work. No judgment at all. But there is evidence that cycling through a couple different ones actually helps. And especially as an elite runner, you do have a shoe. Once you kind of learn it, you kind of have a shoe for everything. Like you might not, back then, now is a little different because everything is like super stacked. But back then you probably wouldn't go.
and like do your normal long run in your racing flat, unless you're prepping for a marathon. Most people are like, I'm not doing that. Right now, you can do that because the racing flats have as much, if not more cushioning than everything else. So it's a totally different ballgame. But back then, you had your cushion long run shoe. You had your kind of standard like daily mile shoe. You had maybe a lightweight trainer for workouts if you weren't really ready to put on your flats. And then you had your flat, super minimal flat.
for race day, right? That made sense because as an elite runner, you have a tool for the job and that's what shoes are, they're tools. So if you have that much variety of your training, having a rotation kind of makes sense if you can afford it. If you're just the person that, you know, I just do my one run all the time, you know, that's fine. But there is evidence, you actually mentioned this, that shoes can actually last longer if you have more than one pair. And I always thought that was just the shoe companies, like just trying to sell more stuff. And I was like, oh, you guys are full of it.
tyson (20:04.557)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (20:07.03)
But no, there is actual evidence that the foams, so this is the stuff called resiliency, meaning when you land on it, when you compress the foam, it bounces back a certain amount, right? So compression, bounce back. So how much that bounces back decreases over time as you load it more and more. The more you wear that shoe, like this is why we tell people, do not walk all day and stand all day in your running shoes, because you will actually compress the stuff faster. If you have another shoe to go on and off with,
they will actually last longer, where the foam has more of a chance to recover. And so then if you wear something else, like it gives it more time. How much, some of the new foams, we have no idea how much they recover and things like that, because we don't just don't have, we're so behind on the evidence. But the older stuff that you're running in when you're an elite, we do know it does recover and it will last longer if you have one or two pairs, one or two additional pairs of shoes to rotate through. So there is actual science behind that. Now.
At the time I was like, I was with you, I'm like, this is probably a gimmick, but no, it's true.
tyson (21:04.765)
Huh.
tyson (21:08.429)
Yeah, it's so crazy to hear. So I've been running in a pair of Saw Coney Endorphin Shifts, and I went and picked those up. And ironically, so I used to run in the structured tri-axis back in the day because I had not a completely flat foot, but not a completely high. Yeah, there you go. They are back in it. I would not recognize those. But yeah, it was that classic, okay, your foot's not completely flat, it's not completely arched. Here's some structured tri-axis, enjoy. And they worked well forever.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (21:14.401)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (21:25.41)
They're back. They're totally different. Yeah.
tyson (21:37.965)
And then to my shock, went into the running store, got recommended these Sorkony Endorphin Shifts. And I thought, well, that's a neutral shoe. I don't think I'm supposed to be running in them. The lady showed me the footage on the treadmill and said, no, look. And I said, well, how can I argue with that? And I walked out $300 later. One thing I've noticed with those, they were incredibly comfortable. I'm a big fan of them for myself. Loved it. So I've run, what is it in miles? Like 500 kilometers, maybe 300 miles?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (22:06.163)
Don't please remember that I as a PhD, I speak in metric all the time. So please you can use kilometers. It's okay. Don't worry.
tyson (22:11.945)
Oh good. As this podcast gets more popular in the States, I'm trying to learn the miles. All I know is five miles is 8K and I work everything off that. And so, yeah, I've done 300 miles, 530. I got the reminder from Strava like a week ago to say, hey, you need new shoes. And I said, okay, yeah. One thing that's blown my mind though, and maybe it's just due to how cushiony they are when you first get them is,
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (22:19.51)
Good. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (22:30.11)
Got it. Yes, you like 500 kilometers or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
tyson (22:40.961)
I never noticed the stark difference with like the structured tri-axis when they were new and when they were old. Sure, when I got them, they were comfortable. I knew they were comfortable. And when they were old, I'm like, yeah, okay. I guess I can sense that. Now I went for a run this morning, ran for 40 minutes, and I was like, I clearly need new shoes. Like these feel like a different shoe to what I've been running in. Have you noticed a lot of that with the newer shoes? Just how dramatically the cushioning drops down?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (23:05.458)
Yeah, I think I noticed that more. We actually talked about this recently about things not to do, which I do frequently as an experiment. So like you have all these shoes that you like. So ironically, I just went back home to Portland, which is where I'm from originally. And I actually believe or not have a pair of Structure 16s still there that I never finished running in. I was like, this is one of my favorite shoes when I was told I need stability. And I love that shoe. For some reason it was over like 10 ounces. I was like, forget how many is like.
almost like 300 grams, which is pretty hefty for a training shoe. And I still somehow did some workouts in that shoe. And I was like, how do they do this? But I remember loving that shoe so much and thinking this was, the cushioning was so responsive, it was great. And I put it on now and I'm like, oh my gosh, these are firm, these are uncomfortable. So I think part of that is also time does wear these foams out and they compress more. But I really think back in the day, we had much firmer shoes with a lot less compression and they weren't as soft. So.
If something doesn't compress as much, they last longer. That's like if you go back 30 years, the cushioning is even less and those things lasted for thousands of kilometers because there wasn't anything to break down. It was just there. With today's high stack super soft foams, you're gonna notice a difference between when you first put them on and then like 500 kilometers later when you've really compressed that foam down. So it is more noticeable now. And the other challenge is things are less durable, right? You get lighter foams.
tyson (24:29.341)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (24:30.906)
softer foams, those inherently scuff and break down quicker. That's just kind of what happens. So there is true to what you're experiencing. And I've kind of wondered about this going, hey, if we compare durability, I had the same thing. I feel like shoes used to last a lot longer, even now with all the stuff that I get. I'm like a lot of, and this is the industry, those that know me make fun of me for this because I am so hard on shoes. I'll blow through most of the, a lot of shoes won't even last me a hundred miles. Now that's how bad my mechanics are is I'll just rip through stuff.
And I'm like, wow, thank goodness I started a shoe website because I wouldn't be able to survive without it. But yeah, it's true. I wear through stuff so quick. And I think there's a reality to that thing that's so much softer and there's so much lighter. And there is consequences to everything. You get softer, you get lighter, durability is probably gonna be less.
tyson (25:15.765)
Mm.
tyson (25:18.837)
Yeah, see I wanted to ask you about this. Someone said to me a while ago, a friend of mine said that there's some evidence coming out that based on how much running we're now doing in such comfortable, durable, soft foam shoes, we're starting to see a lot more lower leg injuries just because our bodies aren't as equipped to be able to maintain that pressure. The face that you just did there was the face that I did when he told me, because I'm not 100% convinced that the bloke who said it was accurate, but it.
sounded like a point that makes a lot of sense. I'm like, okay, well, if we're running in shoes that are absorbing so much of the shock and we're maybe pushing a little bit more, running a little bit further, and our body's lost that durability, that strength to be able to maintain or to absorb that constant shock, like I can see where that's coming from, but you don't think there's much there to show that at the moment.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (26:07.598)
So the, I see where you're going. This is another one of those things where it makes logical sense, but then you actually study it, you're like, oh. So the first thing is injury rates haven't changed. They have not changed since the inception. Shoes generally about 50, anywhere from like 50 to 70%, if not more people, runners get injured every year. And there has been no shoe that's been able to modify that. Nobody who's talked about it, we have not seen a shift at all. It just happens. The injury types.
are what change, right? So we had the minimalist thing that happened a couple of years ago where everybody's like barefoot stuff, everybody gives us to be perfect. If you get this, you're never gonna get injured again. It's like, nope, you got injured just as frequently. You now just have different injuries. Instead of getting knee stuff, now you got more like Achilles problems, foot and ankle stress fractures, things like that. So the stress has shifted down lower into the foot. With the more extremely cushioned stuff, it's not that we're weaker, actually. It's just we're changing how we're running.
So these highly cushioned shoes, by the way, believe it or not, the highly cushioned shoes actually don't provide more shock absorption, believe it or not. So the actual, what we found, what there's a couple of studies that came out is, it does provide more cushioning, but as a response to that, you actually land harder. So your body, you actually have the same, if not higher, internal joint loading than you do with a more traditional shoe, because your body goes,
Hey, this is soft, I can just slam into the ground. I need to worry about this. It's totally fine. Instead of when you have a little less cushion, your body's like, whoa, okay, I felt that. I probably shouldn't land as hard. So it's not, and it's not that we're getting weaker. It's just we're changing it. So these more cushioned shoes, all the stress is getting shifted up to the knee and the hip because the foot is doing a little bit less. The knee and the hip is having to do more. So it's not that we're getting weaker. We're just changing where we're having to work. So less foot and ankle injuries right now.
a lot more hamstring, hip, IT man stuff because the shoes are softer, a little less stable. So people are having more stability stuff and more issues with like crank, like their stride is getting lengthened because the shoes are so rockered and bouncy. So the hamstrings getting strained. So again, it's not that it's decreasing or increasing injury risk. It's just changing where we're having the stress. Cause again, it's like one of the basic laws of physics is you can't destroy energy. You can just move it.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (28:34.943)
And that's what we're finding.
tyson (28:35.297)
Yeah, that is so interesting. It's so
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (28:38.442)
I know, which doesn't make any intuitive sense. You're like, there's more foam. That should be more cushioning, right? But you forget that there's, you have the interaction with the human being on top of it, who's also gonna go, ah, the feeling of shock is actually a good thing to a degree, because it tells me, like, sensory-wise, how to interact with the ground. If I don't have that, I'm just gonna slam into the ground harder. So you actually get kind of the same joint loads.
tyson (29:04.998)
It just serves as a reminder of how much bro science is really out there. Because so many people say something to me, like yeah, that makes sense. And it'll lodge into my mind as like some new evidence that just justifies whatever it is that person says about me. But when you actually hear it explained by a person in your position, it's kind of shocking how many things we take for granted that is just utter bullshit, really.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (29:12.116)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (29:27.554)
Yeah, that's honestly the thought that goes through my head. Like I just have to stay off social media now because there's so much BS out there. I can't like, I already have enough to feel through as a researcher right now, just and as a clinician trying to like do that. It's like, I can't do it in my personal life or on social media. I got to, I need a break. Like, but it's true. It's also, it's like exciting, but also disappointing. Equally we're like, this is really cool. Oh, this is dumb. Like, are you serious? Like, so it's just this kind of like back and forth all the time. You're like.
tyson (29:43.341)
F-F-Fishio.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (29:55.274)
Yeah, it's a lot on that. But yeah, I totally get it. That's how I feel all the time. Like, what? Like, yeah.
tyson (29:55.301)
Yeah.
tyson (30:01.973)
Man, before I move on, I know I've put a pin in it. I can see that visual pin in my head in the conversation around the shoes that cause injury. So before I forget that that's up on the board there, are you able to speak to that a little bit more? Like what are some of the things to look out for an individual that's just an utter no-go zone when it comes to shoes that are gonna really enhance the speed at which you break down?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (30:11.532)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (30:18.423)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (30:23.23)
Right, so part of that's gonna be choosing a tool that's not appropriate for you. There's a reason that we say over here, shoes are tools all the time. It's like the analogy that I give is that I am from Oregon and for those in the States, and you might know this as well, no offense to Oregonians, I say this, we're not great drivers, okay? We drive, our speed limit is 55 miles an hour, which the rest of the country's like, what is wrong with you? When I came down here and was driving that on the 10 freeway in Los Angeles,
I almost got run off the road. I learned that the middle finger is called the LA driving finger here. So I got that a lot. I'm like, I thought you're supposed to drive under the speed limit, not over it. And then it's like, yeah. So I also got, by the way, I got pulled over at one point early on driving down here because a police officer goes, why are you driving 55 miles an hour? The speed limit is 70. I'm like, I'm trying to be safe. He's like, get off the road.
tyson (31:12.617)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (31:14.27)
Like you're a hazard. So I almost got a ticket for driving under the speed limit here. So that will tell you all you know about driving in Los Angeles. But so I am not appropriate to be driving a Lamborghini. Do not give me those keys. I will run it into the nearest pole no matter how appropriate I am. And I'm also not gonna be like racing, okay? I need to get to work and I need to drive to the grocery store and occasionally drive to a trail. That tool is not appropriate for me. Now, if you're a pro car racer, yeah.
That makes total sense that you might have one of those, or you're in a situation where you have the free time to be going and using it. That makes sense. For me, I need a Honda Fit. I need a small car that's efficient, that's smaller so I run into less things, and that works great for me. I get injured less because I'm not hitting as many other cars. It's great. It's kind of the same analogy for shoes. Does every, like for example, does everybody need one of these crazy super shoes? And the answer is no, because there's a lot of people who,
tyson (31:53.37)
Hehehe
tyson (32:00.925)
Hehehehe
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (32:12.578)
Do not know how to stabilize and use this. If you put something on you don't know how to use in your body, doesn't have the capacity to handle it, you're gonna be asking for an injury. That's just how it goes. People don't wanna take time to transition and learn to use a shoe. They want something that's gonna work right away. So that's where a normal daily trainer is going to work totally fine for a lot of people, right? Making sure that something fits, making sure it's not uncomfortable, it's not crushing your foot, or every time you land, you don't get some kind of weird pain like that.
is important for going, is this shoe gonna work for me? If you are interested in some of these other tools, like some of the super shoes out there, you need to make sure that you're running at a speed that is actually going to utilize this. Cause if you're not, you are using this tool for a way it's unintended. Like me trying to take that Lamborghini and drive into the, do you guys have, you guys don't have Costco in Australia, or do you? You do, okay. Yeah, so you can imagine trying to take a sports car through like really expensive,
tyson (33:04.035)
No, we do we do it's not as big as what it is in America, but it's catching up
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (33:14.03)
like low riding wide sports cars, trying to take it through a Costco parking lot on a busy like Sunday. Like that, no, that's not appropriate at all. Just like if I'm, it's not really appropriate for me to take this kind of shoe, the Super shoe, if I'm just gonna be jogging, right? It might feel good, but the way I'm loading the shoe and using it and the way I'm pivoting over the plate, I can't say that's gonna keep you healthy and that might be the best thing for you. You're not using the tool the way it was designed.
So there are some better options now where you have some of these like partial super shoes that have like half foam, half plate where it's designed to be used at slower speeds. That might be more appropriate for you, but some of these really aggressive ones, not everybody needs. I know everybody wants one because they want their marathon time to come down by X percent. But we found that a lot of times in slower runners, these don't actually help that much. And in fact, it might actually increase your injury risk because they're less stable. You need to have more control to use it.
We know, and even for elite runners, you're going, maybe you shouldn't be spending as much time as these, because they're actually, as crazy as they are, they're very aggressive. And you tend to, there's a very high risk of over-training in these. So, you know, that's where it comes down to, you need to know what the tool is, and whether it's matching what you're planning to use it for. If it does match it, great, that might actually be something you can utilize. But if it really is not matching what you're really using it for, you're supposed to be using it for.
You're using a tool the way it's not intended. So any injuries that happen, that's on you. You used it for something it wasn't intended for.
tyson (34:40.493)
Yeah, I'm probably the perfect bloke to ask this question at the moment. So for clarity, like a lot of the audience already knows that I have returned to like a little more serious style running after quite a long time of non-competitive running and I've paid the price. I'm 36 now, I'd gone out and just trained like I was 24 in the middle of my peak running and I was like, oh okay, I know how to structure a week of training. I've been running 30K a week for 10 years. I'll just step up the intensity, I'll step up some of the distance. I used to be able to do this, it'll be fine.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (34:51.446)
Yeah. Right.
tyson (35:10.041)
And my biggest struggle over the last 12 months has just been navigating the return to volume and intensity that my calves will allow me to do. I've been managing a lot of calf strains and still sort of playing with that a little bit. But I've got my eye on next year potentially getting back into some form of racing and naturally I'm looking at the super shoes as a potential next step once I get to a point where I'm confident that my calves can handle the load that I'm sort of putting through them.
What does that process of transitioning into a super shoe like that look like for someone like me? I would guess that it would be like maybe once a week, put in some shoe that's midway between a super shoe and your normal trainer for one of the lighter sessions and just gradually build up your ability to maintain, or ability to, what do you say? Just transition into the full blown super shoe. What would you recommend to a bloke in my position?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (36:04.938)
Yeah, I think you I have to say off topic, by the way, I don't know if you know that my dissertation for my PhD is on Achilles and calf function and change in Masters Rudders. So I'm sitting here going, oh, we have some things to talk about. I am the right I like I'm the perfect literally what you're experiencing, by the way, is totally normal. So it's very common as we so there's three time points. I'll come back to the shoe, because I think this is important because you basically answered your own question. There are three time points in our life.
tyson (36:14.61)
I didn't, but I'm so glad I brought it up.
Please.
tyson (36:31.697)
Please don't say age. Hehehehe.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (36:33.738)
where we start seeing some massive changes in our musculoskeletal system. So the first is age 30, the second is 50 where it really accelerates, and then at 75 is the last one, we really start to see that acceleration. Between younger and older runners, older being relative because you're still young at 36, that said, we see a shift in injuries from kind of knee-based stuff to more Achilles, calf, and hamstrings. What you're experiencing is very normal. We have to realize when you take time off,
You had built up all this stuff from when you were a child of like these things, you're like sprinting all this stuff that keeps your calves and Achilles really elastic and moving well. When you stop doing that, you do kind of lose some of that, right? Normal aging, unless you're really working on it, you do tend to lose it a little bit. And so it does take us a little longer to get back. So you learning this going, you know what, I need to ease into this stuff is brilliant because that's exactly the answer is you need to take, you need to give yourself more time to transition in.
tyson (37:14.793)
Hmm.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (37:31.21)
And what the big mistake people make with super shoes is like, these feel amazing. I'm going to give you a 20 mile run. I'm going to go do like 30 K in these shoes right now because they feel amazing. And that's where people get into trouble. Cause actually it's what you just said is, yeah, you know, pick a lighter session during the week and just get your body used to going, what does this feel like? Like, Whoa, this is crazy bouncy. Just cause something feels good. Doesn't mean your body's ready to handle it. And so eat like one session a week, maybe something shorter, and then kind of slowly easing.
your distance in is the best way to do this. Like that's why when people are doing marathons, oh, what's the best super shoe? And I'm like, do not be making big changes last minute, like just adding a super shoe in because you need to make sure you do a couple long runs to test out to make sure you can even handle this thing for 26.2 miles or 42.2 kilometers, right? You have to control it. Instead of being the super bare bones minimalist stuff, now it's like a crazy horse
that you've got to keep control of over the distance, right? So if you can get that horse under control, you're going to go great, but you have to control it the whole time as soon as the wheels fall off. So yes, you answered your own question is, I think like any other shoe, you should ease into it and give your body time to adapt because people seem to think these are magic and they'll like save you from injuries and doing that stuff. No, the things that get you injured are making big changes too quickly. If you give your body time to adapt to them, no matter what it is,
tyson (38:41.626)
interesting.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (38:59.266)
you'll usually be fine. So, thank you, you said it perfectly.
tyson (39:01.025)
Yeah, that's so interesting. It's such a, yeah, I had no idea actually that's what your dissertation was on. Like it's really, I'm so glad I brought that up. But one thing that frustrates me, cause it just doesn't seem to make sense cause I've seen too many athletes who are way older than me training hard, running fast and doing it without injury. So I understand and I'd heard that it's an age related thing. What I hadn't heard people really elaborate on was the fact that there's a way to retrain it. And that's what gives me hope. And I...
I love it, because as we said, like bro science comes up. I mentioned to a bloke, I do standup comedy here in Melbourne. I mentioned to a bloke, I love it. That's a whole nother podcast. Literally, I've got another podcast. Oh, no, bro. Just watch a 10 minute set of mine and you'll feel completely confident knowing that I too bomb on a regular basis. Ha ha ha.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (39:36.918)
That's gonna make me nervous to try any jokes on you because I feel like you're great at me going, that was terrible, this is gross, yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (39:47.658)
Hey, at least you have the guts to get up there. I've been asked like, Matt, you should do some stand-accounting. I'm too scared because I know that first time you bombed so bad, you may not ever want to come back. So I'm terrified of that. So all power to you just to get up there.
tyson (39:57.673)
Oh, I reckon I've done a thousand of them and still sometimes I get up and bomb. So I'm right there with you. But yeah, if nothing else, I'm very brave. So I'll take that. The one thing that frustrates me is it often ends at the, okay, this is what happens with age and no one wants to talk about the rehab. No one wants to talk about the return to it. No one wants to talk about a slow process. So.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (40:03.38)
Okay.
tyson (40:21.861)
I say all that to say where I'm at now and feel free to correct me or tell me I'm completely wrong because I actually need that. I'm probably running between 30 and 40K a week now. Most of it, 95% of it at just like an aerobic level, very comfortable five minute K pace, maybe a little bit quicker. But then on a Thursday, rather than going out and just doing six by K at three minutes or whatever like I used to do, I have just started to do what I've just called mini session. So I'll do a 30 minute run and then I'll go to a track or a grass oval.
And I'll just do five laps of like striding out 100 meters and then jogging 100 meters, striding out 100. And my thought process was like over the course of the next few months, I'm hoping to gradually increase the distance as long as my body's absorbing it and increase the intensity as the next step. Cause what I think I've made the mistake of last time was just going, all right, and we're doing six by K, let's go. And my body was like, no, you're not doing that. That's a joke.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (41:17.322)
You're doing this perfectly, because there's two couple systems that you need to think about is A, your aerobic system isn't what it was then, right? So you need to ease back into this, but your musculoskeletal system, your muscles, tendons, all that kind of stuff, also needs some time to adapt. That you do not have, I don't want this to come off the wrong way, you don't have the same current capacity to do what you did then, that you honestly don't really think about, but you took years to build up to that point, then you took a break, right?
you can build up to it, but you kind of got to start over, not over completely, but doing strides, things like that is a great way to expose your body to, hey, this is just a little heads up. Kind of like years ago, when you were a little kid playing tag, like that's the set, you're still striding out, but you don't realize that you, as an elite runner, were still building off of that, that playing tag. So now that you've kind of taken a break, it's the same concept of, hey, you have to let that build up and your calf and Achilles,
tyson (41:45.722)
Yeah.
tyson (41:57.108)
Yeah!
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (42:13.634)
So the primary propulsive muscles in running are your calf muscles. So when you start to pick up the pace especially, demands a lot more of them. If they haven't been doing it for a while, yeah, you get strange, right? Cause you're asking the muscle to do more than it's used to handling. It makes sense, right? Strides is kind of like, it's not that different from like lifting weights, right? It's like just getting that muscle used to doing this again. And then you set to do the same buildup where you can't just jump into six by K. It's
start with some striders, maybe doing a little fart leg, slowly progressively just as the fart leg you can tolerate. Then maybe when you've gotten back into it, you might be able to do six by K, but you've got to start with a tolerable level and let your body adapt. And that's the other thing is your body's gonna adapt. It's not that it can't. And I say this, when I came out of college, I was running like 1440s for 5K and that was my big focus. And I was very lucky, I could go a lot of road races and just clean up.
Then I came down to Southern California, which is like one of the hubs of masters running in United States. And what just got, I actually just got to see him the other day. John Gardner is one of the top U S masters, distance runners over 50 and he crushed me at a race. He was like 46 and I was 22 and he out sprinted me in a five K and crushed me. And I was like, what the hell is this? And I was so embarrassed. I didn't run for like a month. I like race for a month after that.
tyson (43:28.16)
Yeah
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (43:38.826)
And then it happened again with a guy named Pete McGill, who is the, I think he currently still is the over 50 US record holder for the 5K. He'd run like 1440 for a 5K as a 50 year old. And I'll, again, he out-leaned me in a race. And I was like, what the heck is this? So the capability is there. It's you just got to ease into it. And that they had the ability to be way more patient than I did as I, you know, as I try to build up really quick, even as a young athlete.
would tend to burn out, they kept that long view in mind and knowing, hey, they knew, master's runners increase risk of injury. They get injured all the time, they go, this happens, let me kind of build up, let me start back into it. So their journey kind of looked like this, and they just keep at it where a lot of this younger runners still have that mindset of trying to go up this quick and then we get crushed, up this quick and get crushed. So it's that long-term mindset of going, I knew I can do this, my body actually has the capacity, which is what my dissertation is, is going,
tyson (44:10.185)
Hmm.
tyson (44:28.442)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (44:37.198)
Do not give up. You don't need to be like, oh, I can't do this. You need to ask questions. Okay, is my body still capable of this and how do I build it to that capacity? How much time do I need? Do I need patience? Is there anything extra? Like if you're not doing this, there was one exercise I would tell you to do is do some heavier calf raises. Like just, and not like light 20 pound. If you can tolerate 40, 50, 60, 70, like heavy. Your calf muscles need to produce high levels of force. If you don't train them as such.
tyson (44:54.809)
Yep, I have been.
tyson (45:01.085)
I. Yep.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (45:07.362)
They're not gonna do it. And we've had good evidence. So this is what I teach them is like for like your Achilles and calf, if you wanna build that elastic tension back so you have that bounce you had when you were younger, you need very low rep, high weight activities, very slow, because that's what builds tension back in that Achilles tendon. Also, if you wanna train your calves to produce more force, three sets of 10, three sets of 20, that doesn't train you to produce more force. That just trains some endurance, which you're already doing. You need to teach your body
heavy weight really produce force. That means less reps, three to six reps, much more weight. And it also means you need to be in the gym less. You don't need to be in the gym for an hour doing a thousand exercises. You need to do heavier stuff quicker and get out of there because you're a runner, not a power lifter. But yeah, so that's what the evidence is. Minimum is twice a week. You can do this at home. Yeah, it's a lot. It's actually the whole body, almost any muscle really. Minimum that you'd need is twice a week.
tyson (45:42.074)
Yep.
tyson (45:54.009)
And how many times a week? Yeah, man, that's so helpful. For on the calves, yep, great.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (46:07.382)
You don't get it, three is great. You actually get decreasing returns for additional times a week. It's two is that minimum time. Load it heavily, get in, get out, be efficient. But you need that higher load to build the strength and elasticity back. And it takes time. So that the people I'm working with, I study Achilles tendinopathy, people that have chronic tendon changes. Here's what I tell them. I'm gonna give you one exercise, but you need to do this for nine to 12 months because it takes nine to 12 months to actually change the elasticity and structure of that tendon.
tyson (46:07.482)
Yeah.
tyson (46:16.826)
Yeah, that's...
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (46:36.662)
So you don't need 40 exercises, you just need the one thing and just do it well. That's it.
tyson (46:41.69)
You get me excited. So really heavy weight. Do I have my foot on like an actual plate or am I flat on the ground?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (46:48.946)
So I would say if you're gonna start loading things super heavy, you can only change one variable at a time or you're gonna get injured, right? Same thing with running. If you were trying to increase your distance and speed at the same time, it's too much. So if you're gonna do it heavy, I would really stay on a level surface. When you feel like you're ready to tolerate more and you're starting to max your weight out, then you can start thinking about off the plate, but start on a level surface first, because again, one thing at a time. Too much is where you get, again, gotta give your body time to adapt.
tyson (46:53.406)
show.
tyson (47:15.589)
Bye.
tyson (47:18.853)
You're getting me so pumped up. I literally had this conversation, what is it? On Sunday afternoon here, I had a friend come down to the beach and we were just walking along the beach and he's been struggling with calf issues for about six years. Now, he's one of the guys, we actually had this chat, he goes, I'm not 100% sure whether I wanna commit to running anymore, because it's just constant calf niggles. I don't know what it is in pounds. He's about 97 kilos, he's about six foot four. He's a big guy. But I know he's not doing any.
kind of rehab kind of work. He's not in the gym, he's not sprinting. It's just, I'll jog and get the calf injury repeat. So I'm so pumped to clip this part of the podcast and send it to him just to get him all pumped up because he's the kind of guy that he's, when he knows it, he's willing to put in the work. So hopefully this serves as a, I mean, I'm pumped up. So anyone else out there with calf issues, I'm sure is getting pumped as well. Cause it's, yeah, so easy to say, oh, old man syndrome, so much harder to break it down and go, okay, but like, how do we overcome that?
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (47:53.292)
Right.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (48:15.35)
Right. It's actually old, it's old person syndrome. Cause actually what we found is that women tend to experience this just as much as men. So as you get older, there's not a gender difference between Achilles or calf issues. It's actually pretty equal. So, but that is why I chose this for my dissertation. By the way. So I told Type before we did, we started, I was taught, we were Tyson and I were talking and I was talking about, so Lauren Maslow. So when we do, when you do podcasts,
You sometimes get up at obscene hours just to get somebody out when you're really excited. So Lauren Mazel is one of the premier foot and you've heard me mention his name several times. Premier footwear researchers in the world. So I interviewed him before when. So, by the way, no offense to the U.S. system. The rest of the world's way smarter with PhDs, because when you start a PhD, you actually jump into the research, whereas here they make you take like years of classes first and then you start your research. So I was trying to figure out what I want to do for my research. And I wanted to do shoes, obviously.
tyson (49:03.938)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (49:08.466)
And I remember asking him this because I interviewed him on my time. It was two o'clock in the morning. And I was like, all right, like I love talking to you. This is great. This was like way above my head, but like, Hey, I'm looking at dissertation tops. He has a PhD as well. I'm like, should I do shoes? And he's heavy action. He goes, absolutely not. Do not do that. You'll never finish your PhD. Like don't like do something else. I was like, Oh gosh. So I was looking around and like trying to be like, okay, what can I choose? That's really helpful. And I was looking and realizing all the people that I was treating all these runners. I'm like, again,
I love treating older individuals love treating that because the young, no offense, the young ones are boring. It's like, you guys are fast and elastic and you like take everything for granted. It's easy. I don't want to do this. I want something that's challenging. So working with older individuals, you kept seeing like calf, hamstring, calf, Achilles. And I'm like, why has anybody looked at this? And so looking into it, nobody really investigated this stuff. So I'm trying to figure out my first step is going, what are the actual changes that are happening as we get older?
that influences this. Cause I can suggest like the calf raises, the Achilles stuff because that's what the guess is, but I'm still trying to figure out. So I just, I will be able to tell you in like a week or two, if I finished like processing it, what is actually changing, but the hypothesis is, yeah, we're losing calf strength and our body's compensating for it. Cause we lose calf strength. Even if you don't run, that's what people tend to lose as they age more than any other part. And we know running by itself, unless you do some sprints, doesn't really change your strength. That's kind of-
tyson (50:23.099)
Yeah.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (50:34.902)
where my hypothesis is and I've been testing this clinically it's like really made a significant difference which makes sense because this is the primary propulsive muscle in running so it makes sense that if you don't have the capacity if you're not working on it that's the thing you're probably going to strain the most so it's like oh okay but yeah which hopefully it's not like the biomechanics for the shoe stuff where it's like oh wait just kidding I found out something different so
tyson (50:49.017)
Yeah, it makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. Dude, just... Ha ha ha. Man, I could, I'm loving this conversation. Just as you were speaking then, I don't know how well I maintained my composure. My three-year-old ran into the room, yelling, I muted my microphone. They're home from the park, which means the house is about to get chaotic. So I'm gonna love you and leave you before I lose all respect of both yourself and...
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (51:10.21)
That's it, yeah, I saw it.
Yeah.
tyson (51:18.145)
all the listeners based on how noisy a popplestone child can be. But man, I would love to do this again with you if you're interested, because this was such a blast. I'm so pumped up. Honestly, who knew Shoe Talk could be so exciting? I mean, I know this is your world, and I had a sneaking suspicion it would be interesting. Didn't know I'd have this much fun talking about it. So man, thanks so much for making the time and coming on, that was a heap of fun.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (51:23.944)
Certainly, yes.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (51:39.775)
Yeah.
more than happy to, we barely scratched the surface. And so the more, that's honestly why I do this stuff is I don't want this to be a mystery. I wanna be able to share this stuff. So again, you're more than welcome. I just actually did an episode on our podcast, totally detailing all the stuff I've been finding recently on Achilles and calf stuff and how to treat that because I don't think any of this information should be proprietary or be held. Everybody should be, this should be given to people because
We have a right to know what we're putting on our feet and we have a right to know how our bodies are changing and what we can do about it to try to maintain our function. So I appreciate, it's always a blast. I appreciate it and would love to come on again. So just let me know.
tyson (52:20.969)
Awesome man, thanks a lot. And for everyone listening who's interested in finding out more, make sure you check out the show notes, because I'll have all of Matt's links to websites, podcasts, everything else. So check that out there. But for now, I love you guys and I'll leave you. Dude, thanks so much for coming on once again. And everyone else, we'll see you all here again next week. Awesome, brother. Dude, I'm.
Matthew Klein PT DPT PhD(c) OCS GCS FAAOMPT (52:40.119)
Dude, I can't-