Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
Mark Ackers: I see this trap all
the time. First time managers
were previous top performers.
They now don't know how to
manage top performers. They want
more. So businesses promote them
to the manager role that is a
completely different role to the
one that they've been doing. So
what they do is they lean on
well, do what I did, because
that's what made me successful,
and that's their approach to
management.
John Mason: I'd say those two
things are definitely far apart.
Everything you think the job is,
is that and more,
Mark Ackers: they still keep
their quota, but now have more
responsibility. It's
John Mason: spooky. It's scary.
Mark Ackers: Today's guest is
someone who spent more than a
decade in sales and commercial
leadership roles, progressing
from SDR through to leading
business development teams. He
blends leadership, coaching,
sales, psychology and real world
go to market experience. John
Mason, did you used to be crap
at sales? Yes. What part of your
career flashed through your mind
John Mason: the start of every
chapter of my career in sales,
we expect people to wear many
hats, a team that cannot turn
six people that are responsible
for inbound, outbound, SDR
functions, closing the business
and upsell supporting they will
just fail at all six rather than
be good at one. Internal
coaching is brilliant, but
external coaching is the thing
that teams need when
Mark Ackers: you first become a
manager. What kind of training
and coaching did you get? The
John Mason: company did invest
some time, effort and money into
leadership training, for those
of us that were new managers,
and this is a point about the
industry as a whole, in sales
training that, to me, felt like
a HR tick in the box exercise.
It's just a case of being able
to say we did some training, we
can just hire someone to come in
for a half day or one day
workshop that's going to
eradicate all of our problems.
Why do people still turn to
that? We think it's a silver
bullet. This is the reason why
my team is not successful. This
is going to solve all my
problems. Do you think HR people
should be arranging sales
training sessions? I'd say
Mark Ackers: sales leaders,
coaching. We all know how
important it is, but we also
know finding the time to coach
as often as needed is a
challenge. You often have random
pockets of time, and you feel
like, how do I coach effectively
to the time that I have in my
calendar? We've created a guide
for you, whether you've got 10
minutes, 20 minutes, 45 minutes
or an hour in there. You go to
the chapter that you need with
the time that you have, and
it'll teach you how to coach
effectively. Link in the
comments to download So John,
welcome to the show. Good to see
you. How you feeling good?
John Mason: Thanks, Mark, Yeah,
glad to be here. Thanks.
Mark Ackers: And I can't help
with notes immediately. Your
background that looks like, I
think, are they called Funko
Pops?
John Mason: They are indeed.
Mark Ackers: Is that the turtles
behind you or not? It's
blurring. I can't see what are
they?
John Mason: Oh, no. It's Yoda at
the top. So it's Yoda at the
top. They're out of focus for
the camera. So it's Yoda at the
top. There's some Marvel
characters in the middle, and
some rather jazzy colours and
hidden just here is one that my
team bought me, which says the
king of SME sales says, when I
left my previous role, they got
me my own custom phone call.
Mark Ackers: Wow, which
John Mason: is nicely a book
crest there.
Mark Ackers: Yeah, very good.
And I can see a little bit of a
Star Wars AT walker. I believe
they're cool, but yeah, no
great. Great to have you on the
show, John. It's always
interesting to see people's
backgrounds and what they share.
But no big welcome to the
podcast. We always kick off with
a yes, no question. John Mason,
did you used to be crap at
sales? Yes. And when you heard
me ask you that question, and
you answered yes, what part of
your career flashed through your
mind?
John Mason: I'd say the start of
every chapter of my career. So
whether it's my first role in
sales as an SDR, my first
promotion, my first change of
job, my first change of
vertical, my first time in
management, I think every time
you start something new, that
imposter syndrome creeps back
in, and you're like, I am crap
at sales. And
Mark Ackers: I suppose that's an
interesting differentiation,
though there's the imposter
syndrome, whereas that self
limiting belief and the reality.
What do you think's going on
when you say that? Is it the
imposter syndrome and it's like
your own self limiting belief?
Or do you think there's a
reality to that as well.
John Mason: I think the reality
is there for a lot shorter time
than the imposter syndrome makes
you feel like it's there. So
there are going to be times in
your career when you're gonna be
a look back and think there's
one time I remember this
particular call, this particular
demo, where I really messed up.
And they are the points in which
you are crap at sales. But you
may have that longer lingering
thought and feeling that you are
Mark Ackers: every sales person
I speak to has got their own
story where something has gone
horrendously wrong. If I asked
you to think back to perhaps
your worst moment, where you've
just made a mistake that now you
can look back on and laugh, but
others could maybe learn from
what is probably the biggest
Howler you've had in your
career. Today,
John Mason: I recall in my
previous role, when I was at
down at planner, sort of I was
fairly fresh in the role,
probably my first three to six
months on the phone, and there
was a big uptake in the number
of inquiries we were dealing
with as a big sort of push. And
I was doing a lot of
demonstrations, a lot of
conversations on an autopilot,
quite a. Lot, and I fell into
this sort of bad rhythm of just
taking everyone through the same
motions. And I remember being on
a demonstration with a client,
trying to convince them to
upgrade to the latest thing. And
at every turn I'd say this
wonderful new thing, that
wonderful new thing, selling the
features, the thing we shouldn't
be doing. And they're just sort
of very uninterested, but
they're still going to buy it.
And I couldn't understand what I
was doing wrong. And it was that
I was selling the features, but
I kind of got to the end of the
call with that particular client
and said, I think I've just sat
here and talked at you for half
an hour trying to sell you this
latest thing, when, in fact, you
just want to continue and have
whatever we're offering. And I
on the phone sort of coined an
analogy or a story, that if you
walk into a car dealership
because you just want the latest
hatchback, you just buy the
hatchback, and then you upgrade
to the next hatchback, and then
you upgrade to the next
hatchback, because you're just a
creature of habit, and you don't
really care what features there
are. I've just sat there and
told this person all these
wonderful new things and latest
car, and he's like, I just want
a car, mate, just give me that
car. Thank you. So that Howler.
I'd say it. Wouldn't say it
haunts me, but I definitely look
back on it and think that was a
point in which I realised you
can't just cookie cutter your
demonstrations or conversations.
You need to adapt and listen to
what the client wants.
Mark Ackers: And that's
interesting. Like, I think a lot
of salespeople will know that
feeling of I'm on a call with
someone, it's not gone well, and
I just needed to end now and
forget about it and go on my
next call. But what you've done
differently there is you've kind
of called it out. You've said,
Look, on reflection, it feels
like I've just spoke to you for
half an hour. That wasn't the
right thing to do. I can imagine
that disarms the prospect,
because they're not expecting
you to say that. How. How did
they respond to your brutal
honesty there? I think
John Mason: they responded,
Well, I think you're right, that
the fact I was able to think on
the fly and turn it around and
have that self awareness
probably comes from a time
previously in my career where
I've made a similar mistake, but
wanted the ground to swallow me
up and wanted to get off the
call as quickly as possible. So
the fact that this happened
pretty much six years into my
career, halfway, halfway into my
career, could work out how old I
was then, meant I would have
learned a lesson previously and
applied it then. But yeah,
definitely has been times where
I've come off a call as quickly
as possible, wanting the ground
to swallow me up. I
Mark Ackers: think what's
interesting there is you're
talking about something that's
happened six years into your
career, and I know you'll take
this the right way. Many people
on paper would read that story
and think surely in the first
six years, you've learned that
lesson. Not just a feature dump,
but I think one of the things
that I see all the time is
people confuse years in role for
growth and development, and it's
not the same thing. So many
sales people have the same year
over and over again, and they're
not learning, they're not
developing, they're not moving
on. And it feels like perhaps
you got to a point where you
realised, okay, something needs
to change. I need to grow and
develop. And maybe that was the
point where you realised that,
is that, is that a fair
John Mason: statement? I'd say
it was a fair statement. It was
the third vertical, the third
area that I was selling into. So
financial services was not
something I'd done for six
years. I had some selling for
six years, but for six years,
but financial services was new.
Some days I was doing three or
four, three or four days in a
row. So the thing that I slipped
back into was that cookie cutter
demonstration. Just go through
the motions, get it done. And
that's when I lay, sort of fell
foul of going back to the
default, which I had spent years
unlearning, and let's talk about
that early period then, like the
years that you'd spent learning
and trying to undo that. How did
you actually end up in sales in
the first place? I think I ended
up in sales, like everyone else
ends up in sales. I fell into it
by accident. I woke up one day,
decided I needed a nine till
five that paid me a salary I
couldn't necessarily just keep
working zero hour contracts and
the gig economy as such. And
basically applied for the, you
know, took the first role that
would accept me, which, yeah,
back in 2012 was my local BT
business office,
Mark Ackers: and what was an
early John like in a sales role,
John Mason: a deer in
headlights, Bambi on ice. I had
plenty of soft skills that I
took into the role where I had
worked in bars and done cross
sell, up sell. I had done some
door knocking. I had done some
telephone sales, appointment
setting for like, you know,
Windows and things like that in
my teens and early 20s. But this
was B to B sales, selling
telecoms. It was like a step up,
and there was a steep learning
curve. So, yeah, deer in
headlights or Bambi on ice is
definitely a good way of
describing how I would have been
in those first 369, months,
Mark Ackers: and in that time,
who helped you? That's
John Mason: a really good
question. I was quite lucky. So
BT is a large organisation, but
the local office is franchised,
and so it's small. At the time,
we probably had 30 or 40 staff.
I know the Southwest office now
has probably tripled in size
since I left in 2014 you learn
off your peers. So it's who's
already there, setting the
appointments that are doing
well, sort of copy. Sort of copy
them. But I did have a really
good team leader, manager that
was fantastic at protecting his
team. You know, if there was
some negativity coming down from
the top table, you know, make
more calls, but more
appointments. You know, why are
you guys not hitting target?
He'd do very well at the.
Absorbing that and then playing
it back to us in a constructive
way for us to be able to achieve
those targets. So having a
really good team leader allowed
me the space to grow in those
two years. I get the idea of
absorbing the pressure from
above and relying that in a
message that is softer, more
motivating than it is
criticising. I tell you that,
what other traits did this team
leader have that perhaps has
left an impression on you? They
were always fair. So there's a
few, a few mouths to feed,
whether it was like, you know,
in down leads and things like
that. So there was always fair
in making sure that everyone got
a fair shot. He didn't share
show favouritism, and I probably
couldn't quantify what it is
that he did, but I can quantify
what feeling I had when I was at
work. And it's a case of, I was
ready to go back for him. I was
ready to go to war. If he said,
We need to book two more
appointments today, I was ready
to go. So the things that he
would have done that would have
instilled that in me. And so
obviously, you know, this is
going back 12 years, so I can't
necessarily think of what they
were, but I do vividly remember
that feeling of way too bad for
him already to go to war. And I
think that's important. If, if
your leader can make you feel
like that, then that's a really
important thing. What
Mark Ackers: was this leader's
name?
John Mason: It was Matt
charleck. So, yeah, he was at
BEC for quite a long time. I
think he's now at OT or Virgin.
I know those merged. So he's
doing something over on that
side of the the telecoms fence,
just so to speak.
Mark Ackers: And let's say I
said to you, oh, I know Matt.
I'm going to give him a call if
I was to call him up and say,
Tell me about John Mason in
those early years. How do you
think he would describe you?
John Mason: I was inconsistent.
You know, back then I was I'd
have good days of booking two or
three appointments, and then go
two or three days without
booking one. I just couldn't
seem to find the strive that. I
couldn't seem to find the thing
that made it click. I remember
watching Wolf of Wall Street
thinking, This must be the
secret sauce to how you'd be a
good appointment setter. So from
a performance perspective,
that's what you definitely say.
But I'm I know that I shared it
showed a lot of of those skills.
That says, If I teach this
person how to achieve those
things, there are other things
that they can do naturally that
will help them in their career
move forward.
Mark Ackers: And what do you
think the difference was then,
on days where you might set two
or three appointments, and then
days where you where you
wouldn't was it a tactical
difference in those days or a
mental difference in those two
days?
John Mason: Tactical? I think
back then, it was just sheer
luck. This is 2012 2013 14, the
days of just do 100 dials a day.
There's no full enrich LEM list.
There's no sequences. It is just
pick up. There's no parallel
dialers or anything like that.
It's just pick up the phone
manually, type in a number, and
do that 100 times in a day with
as little research as possible.
I think that was a very shotgun
scatter coach, scattergun
approach to appointment setting
and to sales development roles.
And I think it was brilliant to
have learned how not to do
things and to have that
experience to cut my teeth, but
people coming into the industry
now, they've got a lot more
support behind them to not get
to that target by chance, but to
actually get there tactically,
Mark Ackers: I'm going to change
that slightly, and I'm going to
do that in a way which I think
is going to be a really good
conversation. John, and this
comes from a place of working
with and managing SDRs for a
long time now, the tactical side
of things, I get it, if you do
something different one day to
the other, that can impact
results. I suppose what you were
talking about there, though, it
wasn't different tactics. It was
pick up the phone. Have 100
dials a day. I get you might say
and do things differently, but
your point about in today's day
and age, there's like, full and
rich cognism All these sort of
you know, we've never had more
technology at our fingertips,
but that technology wasn't
different for you day to day. So
I wonder, was it that you might
just take your foot off the gas
a little bit because you've had
two or three appointments a day
before, you don't feel like you
need to achieve that the next
day, and perhaps you are just a
little bit more relaxed. You're
not desperately trying hard. Do
you think, like, mentally?
Because I think tactically, when
people looking to improve the
form to sales team, they focus
on those tactics. But I feel
like most of it's actually the
mental side of sounds like,
obviously you need to know how
to do things. You need to know
how to say, what to say, the
cool structure, etc. But I think
your answer there would tell me
it was more mental than
tactical, because you were doing
the same thing each day. Talk to
me about that.
John Mason: Yeah, I think I
probably didn't actually
describe it as well. I didn't
know what I was doing. So it was
sheer luck if I was booking
appointments, because there was
not necessarily a huge amount of
science behind it, other than
pick up the phone and make those
dials. So now we would better
define an ICP. We would create
sequences. We would be more
targeted, methodical in our
approach, so that we can take
what works and repeat that. I
didn't necessarily know what was
working, so I didn't necessarily
know how to repeat it, and I.
100% agree with why you think
the side of it would be mental,
and I've seen that as well in
the near decade that I've worked
with, SDRs and AES, training,
coaching, managing, working
alongside. But I do know, from a
perspective, when I was working
at BT, you couldn't take your
foot off the gas. You weren't
allowed to, I definitely felt
like there was a degree of
ruling by like an iron fist and
fear. You know, there, there was
no coasting. You know, you did
need to hit two appointments,
three appointments a day. And if
you didn't, you know, you're in
for a bit of a rollicking. So I
think the mental side of it
would be around the that
imposter syndrome creeping in.
You know, it's not going well.
I'm at lunchtime, I haven't
booked an appointment, and then
you start the self doubt, and
that will probably carry through
into your course, so that
mentally, I think, would be
where your subconscious is
probably actually affecting your
dials in the afternoon, for
example.
Mark Ackers: So that's, yeah,
that's interesting, because that
that to me, if you get to
lunchtime and you've not had any
success, you start to count down
the hours that you've got left,
and you start to become more
attached to the phone calls
you're making and the outcome.
But again, you know, that's that
look. Could you argue that's
tactical, maybe. But again,
that, to me, screams mindset and
being able to rise above what
situation you find yourself in.
I've enjoyed that part of the
conversation. John, when I know
BEC was was in conversation with
you about organising this this
episode, you shared some really
interesting thoughts, and we
agreed that we'd feature, sorry,
we agreed that we'd focus this
episode on that first time
manager role that this is one of
the biggest challenges that the
sales industry has, right? You
get top performers, they want
more. So businesses promote them
to the manager role, and that is
a completely different role to
the one that they've been doing.
And there's so much we could
talk about here, and this is
kind of what I want to get into,
but I see this trap all the
time. First time managers were
previous top performers. They
now don't know how to manage. So
what they do is they lean on
well, do what I did, because
that's what made me successful,
and that's their approach to
management, and the company
doesn't support them in that
transition from quota carrier to
manager, and actually, far too
often, they still keep their
quota, but now have more
responsibility, and they've got
to navigate so much, not not
just learning how to interview,
recruit and onboard, how to have
one to ones, how to use the tech
stack in a reporting sense, how
to forecast, how to have
difficult conversations. They've
also got to go from being a
friend to being a boss, and it's
a huge step up. And like, like
you said in your notes when we
were swapping some emails, most
sales people don't become
managers by accident. We all
accept that they do choose it
because they feel like it's the
next step, more money, more
status, career progression. And
companies say yes, because
you're a top performer, we don't
want you to leave. We'd rather
promote you than bring in
someone external. It looks like
we're a great employer. We are
developing people, but yeah, the
issue that nobody talks about is
the reality of the job. Talk to
me about your experience when
you first started thinking about
leadership, what did you think
the job actually was going to be
and what was the reality?
John Mason: Yeah, I'd say those
two things are definitely far
apart. A lot of professionals
not just sales, but sales very
much so your top ICS tend to
become your your managers,
because of the status thing,
everything you think the job is,
is that and more. And you
probably hard. You probably hold
things that you think are
important in the role, that
aren't you think they're more
important than they actually
are. Yeah, you touched on quite
a few really good points there.
So you're going from you know,
you're now managing your peers
and your friends. How do you do
that? How do you still build
that relationship where they
will, you know, go to bat for
you. How do you make them better
without trying to make them four
or five clones of yourself? What
support do you get from the from
the business? I remember vividly
when I took over my first
leadership role, it was a very
much a firefighting moment. I
was trying to fix the things
that hadn't been done because
there was, you know, no one at
the helm for a small period of
time. I was trying to fix the
things that needed to be done on
the day to day basis as they
were coming in. And, you know, I
was a few weeks or months away
from planning for next year. So
I try to fix the future. I
thought some of those things
were really important, and
little did I know that many more
would come, you know around to
need urgent attention, because
you step into leadership and
you're managing your team, but
now you have this level of
exposure to the rest of the
business. So there are other
people in the business that now
need things from you and need to
do things that you weren't
necessarily expecting. So I
remember when I was promoted to.
Become the team leader, the head
of business development. We were
going through our ISO 27,001
certification. So the head of it
adopts needed some things that
had been sort of left in the
inbox tray. And I said, When do
you need these? And he went two
weeks ago. So I've just been
stepped into a role. I've got
all these new things that I
think are super important to
deal with, and I've just been
given a deadline of something
that I didn't even know was on
the radar. So it is a it's
spooky. It's scary. When
Mark Ackers: you first become a
manager, what kind of training
and coaching did you get on how
to be a great frontline manager?
John Mason: I had a really mixed
bag in my previous employer done
that planner. When I was made
head of I was really blessed
that the previous person who was
my manager, allowed me exposure
to her job and to do things on
her behalf, to kind of, I guess,
Tee me up ready to take over in
the event that she was to leave.
I was then promoted, not because
I was the best individual
contributor. I was, you know,
jostling for first and second
continuously with another, but I
was the one that could also lead
people, but I did carry an
individual contributor target
and the team target and the
responsibility of basically
heading up the department with
the CRO and the planning and
everything else that comes
between that the company did
invest some, some time, effort
and money into leadership
training for those of us that
were new managers, getting sort
of consultants to come in and do
workshops and things like that,
to me, and this isn't a point
specifically about my previous
employer. This is a point about
the industry as a whole, in
sales training that, to me, felt
like a HR tick in the box
exercise, as opposed to a
structured need for training
something you'd be awful too
familiar with my sales coach.
Plenty of you know, people will
come to you looking to training
for their sales team, and it's
just for their tick box
exercise, rather than actually
trying to develop that manager
to an end goal as part of their
career, as part of their
development, etc. It's just a
case of being able to say we did
some training. And I think that
may have been the case, and I
know that is the case for a lot
of other businesses.
Mark Ackers: I think, sadly, the
vast majority. Let's go back to
then, to that strategy of teeing
you up. I'm a big fan of that. I
remember when I was in SDR, I
wanted to become an AE, and I
got some exposure in the sense
of, I got to run some events
where I sold tickets. Then run
events. I got to learn to speak
to people. And as I say, I was
selling those tickets to an
event in London, and that was my
first taste. Then I got to if I
overachieved on my quota of
booking meetings, I got to spend
a day a week trying to be an AE
and take those first meetings,
and then as a, as a, an AE, I
made it my, my purpose in every
one to my boss to say, can I
take that off your plate? Can I
take that off your plate? And I
used to get all the crap jobs
that they didn't want to do, but
you do them well, and then you
get more responsible, and you
get more exposure and and I
really believe in that strategy,
not just promoting someone into
a new role. And it's like day
one, this is all you do. I think
you have to give that soft
exposure and those those
opportunities which seem to work
really well. That sounds like
that will happen to you as well,
which is great when you say
about getting some tick box
training and workshops? Yeah, I
sort of in the back of my head,
just thought, Well, we both know
as as does anybody listen to his
podcast? Right? No, nobody
listens his podcast. Will be of
the opinion, well, that sounds
great. Just do a workshop and
training, because we're all
smarter than that. We know
better than that. But why? Do
you think that people still in
2026 believe that we can just
hire someone to come in for a
half day or one day workshop,
and that's going to that's going
to eradicate all of our
problems? Why do people still
turn to that?
John Mason: I think it's the
path of least resistance. I
think it's the easiest thing to
do to satisfy an, you know, a
question with the answer that
we've done training, but the
question doesn't probe deeper.
So I think in companies in
general that make this mistake,
and frequently make the mistake
and don't necessarily learn from
it, I think they are the ones
that don't probe deeper at the
SLT, C suite level, when asking
those questions, you know, why
are we delivering training? What
are we trying to do? What's the
positive outcomes we're trying
to enact? Also goes to
commission plans as well. You
know, we put this commission
plan together, what behaviours
are we trying to get the sales
reps to do? I think if we don't
challenge the why, the what, the
when, the where, the WHO, and we
just accept the first answer
rather binary and linearly, we
will continue to make those same
mistakes and sales, sales
professionals, AES, SDRs,
leaders will continue to, I
guess, be held back by their
inability to evolve and to take
that step forward. The
Mark Ackers: other thing that
you said that just made. Maybe
wins was HR booked the training
effectively. Do you think HR
people as great as I'm sure they
are at their jobs should be
arranging and booking sales
training sessions?
John Mason: No, they are great
at their job, and they're great
is people in human resources,
just like I don't think finance
and operations should be
anywhere near commission plans.
But in plenty of companies, that
is the case. I think sales
leaders, you know, team leaders,
head of business development,
sales director, CRO Chief Sales
Officer, Chief Commercial
Officer, whatever they may be,
they are the people that own
their domain. And I think they
are the ones that should be
involved in the training for
their their teams and the
responsibility and power should
divulge down from the CRO all
the way down to the team leader
of an SDR,
Mark Ackers: you've signed your
team up to another E Learning
course. You've hired a trainer
to come in and run a workshop.
But guess what? Six months
later, pipeline and performance
is still lumpy. My sales coach
turns learning into doing. We
evaluate everyone on your team,
we identify with real data the
critical gaps that are holding
them back, and then we remedy
it. We match each person to
their dream coach and provide
consistent one to one coaching
to help them fulfil their
potential and hit the number
less one size fits all,
training, more personalised
support, which results in the
growth of your team. That's
predictable sales execution.
That's my sales coach. I think
that's one of the big shifts
that I've seen in the last sort
of 20 years. Though, I think if
I go back to the first 10 years
of my career, lots of companies,
particularly like the FTSE 100
you can, you can see who the
CEOs are. It was a lot of sales
people with sales backgrounds.
And then the 10 years that
followed, it seemed to change,
to be more CFOs and financial
people. And I think you do just
run the company completely
differently and have a different
outset to it. Let's, let's put
something out there for anyone
that's listening to this podcast
that thinks the next role for
them is to be a sales manager.
They perhaps feel like that's in
their grasp. First of all, what
do you think they believe the
job to be? So just imagine being
that IE, I've got a sales
manager role in my grass. What
do you think they believe that
role to be like on a day to day
basis?
John Mason: Oh, gosh, it could
be so many things. Some people
probably just think it's a title
and some power, and they are
people that shouldn't be
promoted to that position.
Others may just think that
they're now responsible for a
bigger target, because they're
looking after 345, AES,
hopefully plenty of them realise
it's now my responsibility to
make these people better at
their job so that they can
progress in their careers. And I
am commercially incentivized.
The better they do, the better I
earn. The latter one's one, I
hope is the one, but it's
probably the middle
Mark Ackers: one.
And let's talk about the
realities. Let's imagine again,
you're gonna create the perfect
advert that is a true
representative of what it's like
to be a sales leader. What do
you think those people that have
that job in their grasp need to
know about the reality of the
role?
John Mason: Yeah. So what is the
true purpose of a sales leader?
You go from being all about
yourself to being about others.
I guess anyone watching this
podcast that has children, when
you're single, you don't have
children, you're responsible for
yourself. When you have
children, you're now responsible
for other human beings, and you
then put them first over
yourself. I think sales
leadership is very similar. I
think you need to realise that
it's no longer about you, it's
about the collective team and
those individuals. So anyone
looking to go into leadership
needs to very quickly be able to
shift from that mindset about
being me and it's it's then
about them. I think
Mark Ackers: that's a really
good analogy, and as a father of
two and a sales leader, that
probably explains why I'm
exhausted all the time you talk
about being responsible for
making the team better, let's
have a really open conversation,
because I think this is one of
the things that sales leaders
need to accept when you think of
all the things a salesperson
needs to be good at in 2026 and
by the way, that list has
changed dramatically in the last
two years. Is it actually fair
to think that a sales manager
has all the domain expertise and
knowledge to make their team
strong across all areas and
disciplines?
John Mason: I will say yes in
theory, but no in practice. One
of the things I think we
struggle with in sales as well
is we expect people to wear many
hats, so in lots of companies,
even ones that have grown, you
know, your A's may be doing
outbound, they may need to have
SDR skills. They may be doing
upsell as well, so they need CSM
skills. So to expect, without.
Are like specifically defining,
you know, the manager and their
role. I think they can fall foul
of that target of making them
better in an organisation or
structure where it's a case of
you are in charge of the
outbound team make them better.
I think providing there is the
additional support, training,
coaching, mentoring, for that
new manager, then we do have the
technology in place, the
understanding of the human brain
and psychology to be able to
make those people better.
Everyone has a limit, though,
I'd say it's the same with
football. You know, the level of
game that's played today in
football is very different to
level of game that was played 20
years ago, 30 years ago. But not
everyone has the ability to
become a Christian art or an
owner or a messy but everyone
has the ability to become, you
know, 110 120% better than that.
Well they were, and a lot of
people say, just make yourself
better, 1% a day at a time, and
that compounds over time. So I
think there's a bigger ceiling
that we can reach for but there
needs to be that, that structure
in place, and that understanding
that you cannot a team that
cannot turn six people that are
responsible for inbound,
outbound, SDR functions, closing
the business and upsell
supporting they will just fail
at all six rather than be good
at
Mark Ackers: one. Yeah, I think
the important caveat that you
mentioned was if they have the
right training and coaching and
structure around them, which, of
course, we know, unfortunately,
isn't true. It just I had a
conversation the other day. I
speak with a sales leader. They
love the idea of my sales coach.
They have told me my team is not
going to hit the number that
we've been set this year. They
are new to the role. They're
like, kind of green. There's a
lot they need to learn and do.
And they shared with me many
examples across the sales
process where they're
struggling, like qualification,
discovery, getting the right,
decision making, criteria,
understanding how they're going
to buy, budget, all of this
stuff. And it'd been four weeks
since we last spoke, which is
always obviously a warning sign
in general. But got on the call
and they said, I've still not
asked my boss if we could buy my
sales coach. And I asked why,
and they said, I feel like the
answer is going to be it's your
job to fix this, and I
understand that it is your job
to fix this, but doesn't mean
you have all the answers. So I
said to the sales leader, I
said, Look, when you think of
all the things that you ask your
sales team to do, what part are
you weakest at? And by the way,
everyone's got a part of the way
it's at. And he said,
negotiation. I said, Okay, so
how are you going to get the
team better at negotiation if
that's your weakest part and you
struggle with that? And then we
spoke about how that's one of
the problems. They're leaving
money on the table. They're
negotiating too early. They're
discounting against themselves.
I was like, that's what you need
to be saying to your CEO. I
don't have all the answers. I
want to learn and develop. How
can I do that? It's about
working with someone that is
stronger in that in that area,
and that's obviously where a
sales manager should be able to
help. In a lot of cases, they
they should be stronger, because
they've been a top performer,
and they've been promoted all of
that stuff. But the reality is,
the way in which the landscape
is moving and the pace that it's
moving at, I think expecting a
salesy to have all the answers
really difficult, particularly
when they've not done the role
before. And this is obviously
kind of what you specialise in,
right? It's about helping people
that are now managers know what
to do. And let's talk about
that, right? You make the play
in your LinkedIn. It's about
knowing what to do on a Monday.
What does that mean in real
life, not on LinkedIn. Help me
understand you've got a first
time manager in front of you.
What does that really mean to
them?
John Mason: It could be
incredibly daunting to be a
first time manager, and if
you're in a very reactive
environment, you're
firefighting, essentially making
it up as you go along. You don't
know what you're going to do on
Monday, you don't know what
you're going to do on Tuesday.
You're just dealing with
whatever shouts the loudest, and
it's about being able to
structure what you need to deal
with, fixing the problems that
the team have, you know from the
past and the day to day,
planning for the future,
developing the team and
developing yourself. You spoke a
moment ago about that example of
a prospective client for my
sales coach, that happens way
too often. Hence, you guys have
a business. I do also think that
sometimes promoting a team, new
person into a manager position,
if the business thinks they're
going to solve the problems. And
you know, if a sales leader came
to me and said, I'm not going to
hit my number this year, I'd
sort of put it back and go,
like, is your first start? Is
your number actually physically
attainable? Like, if I got you
the best SDRs and AES in the
world with the current resources
that you have, the tech, the
structure, everything else could
they hit that number. Because
that's also a thing that I don't
think sales leaders challenge
enough, is that sometimes
numbers can be pulled out of
thin air, and they aren't
unattainable. Don't get me
wrong. I am not scared of a big
target. I went from. Being an
individual contributor at BT,
dealing in pocket change to
being given a million pound
target for myself to achieve in
a year. The king of the caveat,
if we don't get over 500,000
pounds, it's a red mark against
us keeping our franchise X
number of red marks, and we
lose. So, you know, although my
target was a million, I had to
get over by 500 grand by hook or
by crook, it was inevitable. Can
the best of the best do that?
And if the best of us can't do
it, the business needs to have
an honest conversation. But
then, how do you get the most
out of those reps? In that
example that you were speaking
about, he was talking about them
not being able to do X, Y and Z,
internal coaching is brilliant,
but external coaching is the
thing that teams need. They need
both because they're not
experts. I'm not a cold calling
experts. Why I'm not an SDR
coach. I could do cold calling
Absolutely I am, probably better
than some, but I would always
play to my strengths. And I
think when you're a new leader,
you need to very quickly
identify those strengths,
identify those weaknesses, and
then ask for support on those
weaknesses, exactly as you said,
going back to your your boss and
saying, I don't want my sales
coach to do the heavy lifting of
the training you expect me to do
and the coaching I want my sales
coach to fix the problem the
team have with negotiations,
even I could learn something
about negotiations so I can then
better train the next generation
of leaders. But for now, I need
help. It's an area I'm very
passionate about. Obviously, I
feel like I was a bit of an
accident manager myself. And in
addition to that, I know plenty
of other sales professionals
that have gone on to have
fantastic careers that were
accident managers. You mentioned
you wanted to be an AE, you were
proactive in it. I know an SDR
that wants to be an AE, that
became an SDR manager because
the company said, Oh no, no, no,
no, you. We're not going to
promote you to AE. We're going
to make you the leader of the
SDRs. We need you to be in Team
Leader of the SDRs like I don't
want to manage people. And it
happens far too often for
reasons we've discussed so far.
One of the biggest reasons is
businesses can't afford the
double hit. You can't afford to
take your top forming SDR and
their performance out of plan.
So you try and keep them in that
world or your AE, you can't
afford to take their number out
of plan, but they want to be a
manager, so you keep the quota
and ask them to manage. But it's
just, it's just unfair. I think
one of the interesting things
you spoke about was about how
sales leaders have to also think
about the future. That's
Mark Ackers: really hard when
every quarter you start at zero,
and you're always measured by
your number, and you live month
to month. I kind of compare it
to, you know, you use the
football analogy earlier. I
think most football managers get
less than a season, or maybe a
season a half. Whatever the stat
might be, we all know as
football fans, is a short amount
of time. How are they meant to
focus on the Academy and the
youth team and developing, which
is, you know, if you look at
longevity in the role that's
what if you take, you know,
arguably the very best ever. So
next, Ferguson, it's because he
was at helm for 27 years, and he
used to work on four year
cycles, always refreshing the
team every four years, and a big
part of that was the Youth
Academy and the pipeline in the
future. As a sales leader, you
can't be looking at if you've
had three bad quarters in a row,
you can't say yep, it'd be fine
in two years, because we're
doing this development and
coaching, and I'm spending time
with the team, and I'm listening
to calls, and we're doing live
training and workshops. You
can't do that, and I think
that's the sad reality. So sales
leaders get beaten up by the
system, and they focus on the
classics, like they obsess over
pipeline and micro management,
and they become hero managers
that join calls and try to save
deals or win them single
handedly, and, you know, or and
they avoid, like, those hard
conversations that they need to
have internally. I think the
other thing that you said was
interesting is about the
disconnect from where the number
comes from. I know you said it
sort of flippantly, but it like
your words were. It can feel
like the numbers come out of
thin air. The reality is, it's
not come out of thin air. It's
just not been shared properly
with the sales leader. You know,
when you set I don't like the
word target in sales because it
that's something you aim for. I
do think the word quota is the
right word to use. I know that
when I set my team's quota for
the year that has been reverse
engineered against the plan that
we've created, and everything
centres around that plan, from
hiring, spend, tech stack,
budgets, recruitment, all of it.
So when a manager gets given a
number, they feel like that's
unachievable, or that's been
pulled out of thin air. That's
because the plan hasn't been
properly shared, and there isn't
that belief that they can get
there, but it would be carefully
worked out like people will
spend. Weeks and weeks, maybe
months and months, putting
together the plan and the quotas
that go alongside it. But yeah,
it feels like what we're
starting to talk about here is
some of the emotional burden
that you can feel as a sales
leader. Let's talk about that,
right? You know, the pressure
that you can be, the imposter
syndrome, the, no doubt, the
burnout that people feel, and
what's the emotional bit of
leadership that nobody warned
you about before you take the
job?
John Mason: I guess the
emotional bit of leadership is
you're you're now invested in
your team's real motivations. So
if anyone says they're motivated
by money, the chance are you can
actually pinpoint down further,
why they're motivated by money.
What it is about money that
motivates them. They could be a
family man. They want to make
sure that their wife can not
have to go back to work after
their second child. They want to
get a bigger house. They're
motivated by family, not by
money. They just need money,
which is why they're in sales.
You are now responsible for
other people's personal and
professional aspirations. I
always used to think to myself,
I want to make sure the people
that I lead are better
professionally and personally.
For every year that I manage
them, they have to move forward.
That is a burden that if you're
unable to leave your work at the
door when you go home, be it
virtually or in person, that can
be can be quite a burden that
could keep you up at night.
That's one of the things that
you're not necessarily prepared
for in leadership, is that
you're now responsible, in a
way, for those people and
helping them achieve their
goals. I
Mark Ackers: think there's a
couple of interesting things to
talk about there, so I'm just
going to say it as I see it, and
I'd love you to tell me I'm
wrong, because if I'm right,
it's a sad reality. I think most
sales leaders don't truly
understand each individual's
motivation. They might
understand it at a headline
level, or they want to earn more
money, or they want to buy a
house, or, well, they're going
to go travelling, but I think
that's the best that it normally
is the headline level of the
motivation. I don't think, and
it's harder in a remote world,
which, you know, lots of people
operating or hybrid, but yeah,
I'm gonna say, as it is. I think
most sales leaders would say,
Yes, I know what my team are
motivated by. If you really
pushed on it beyond the
headline, I think they'd
struggle. Do you think that's
fair, or have I got that wrong?
John Mason: I think I think that
is fair, and I think it actually
goes to a bigger and wider
issue. The same surface level
answer without probing could be
so for pipeline, yeah, you know,
sales leaders think they know
what's going on in their
pipeline, but they don't. They
haven't probed deep enough if a
company doesn't pass down the
target structure correctly, the
quota structure correctly. It's
because when you know the top
levels pass it down to the
second level, the second level
hasn't asked an important why
question. So when it gets down
to the fourth level, they've got
no idea. I think especially in
sales, we need to be more
inquisitive and ask why, and
probe further and not take
everything at face value,
because there is a underlying
cause. I'm motivated by success.
Money is a byproduct of success.
I know that I'm motivated by
success because if I was in a
role where we were not hitting
quota, and I was feeling
miserable for missing quote all
the time, and someone offered a
pay rise to keep me because I
could leave, you know, and get
20 something else. Well, I
wouldn't stay to fail. I'd
rather leave earn less money and
be successful. So if you don't
know what your own individual
motivator is and the level of
depth that you can give to that
answer, how would you expect to
be able to question your team?
You'll just take the top level
answer, which is not just about
their motivations. It's the sad
reality of of discovery, right?
You know, being able to go
further, we should all learn to
be detectives that have to solve
murders. I think that would
help.
Mark Ackers: I am. I love that
analogy. I've said many times I
love watching, particularly the
BBC and ITV have done great
detective shows, and I love the
interrogation scenes because I
feel like they just ask great
open ended questions to get to
the truth and to solve the
crime. And one of my analogies
in the recent book that I wrote
my colleague, rich Smith,
deconstructing discovery, we
have this golden minute. And
again, I took that from a crime
scene that Trevor McDonald was
exploring, and they speak about
the golden hour, how you have to
solve the case, or get as much
as you can the first hour,
because what you solve there
really links the outcome. So
yeah, you tell you, right, we
have got to be detective. You've
got to have that natural ability
to keep asking questions, even
when you feel like you've asked
enough. And I remember there's
been times in my career where I
feel like I know everybody in
the team's personal challenges
and frustrations outside of
work. And whilst that can be a
heavy burden to have, you have
to learn the school to
disconnect from it and leave
leave work when you do etc. But
yeah, your job is to help them
as human beings, not just sales
people. But I think one of the
other mistakes that you see
sales leaders make, and I was, I
was really guilty of this
earlier on in my management
career, was, let's remember why
sales managers are in that role.
Most of the time. It's because
they were top performers and
they've been promoted. Top
performers are typically
ambitious. They're they crave
success and all that stuff,
right? They want it. You can be
guilty of assuming everyone is
as motivated as you are. They
have the same drive, the same
moment, same motivation. It was
only when I took and we offer
these at my sales coach, but I
took our I took our sales DNA
assessment, and it's, it's
incredibly in depth. It's like
45 page report on who you are as
either an individual contributor
or a manager or a manager of
managers. And there was this
page on how I motivate the team,
and it basically, in black and
white said, You do not
understand how your team are
motivated. You assume everyone's
motivated like you, and they're
not. And that was a bit. That
was a big shit moment, and I
made it my mission, therefore,
to go and really understand
motivations and drivers. And you
know how they like to spend
their time outside of work, and
I think, but again, it's hard to
do that when you manage big
teams and you're under pressure
and you're remote, and you're
new to the role, and you've got
a quota. There's so much
John Mason: going on there.
Here's what I'd love to hear
from you, though, right? What as
a sales leader can you do to
really get through all of that
crap? Like, how do you get
through all of that on a day to
day basis. What are the ways in
which you can identify the team,
understand their motivations,
put the plans in place, build
for the future, not, not not
carry a quote like there's so
much there. Help me understand
what is your playbook? You've
got a first time manager in
front of you. They don't know
what to do on a Monday. How do
they bring it to life? How do
you bring to life? Even caffeine
and sarcasm would be the two
things. No, it's a great
question, because there's a lot
to do. I think prioritisation is
key. So if you are just stepping
into a new manager, work out the
input, yeah, the important
things that needs to be done.
Now, get a real grip on your
diary. Put in dedicated time
that's you know, it can be
rescheduled in the same week for
conflicts, but it is dedicated
to your team, whether it's a
Monday morning catch up or
Friday afternoon before you go
off for the weekend, time
together, one to one separate
your pipeline reviews from time
with the team. So instead of
doing an hour on pipeline, do 30
minutes on pipeline and 30
minutes on them. Have they got
anything they want to bring to
the conversation? Ensure that
you're getting the most out of
your one to ones with your your
manager, because they are the
person that's supposed to help
you move forward. These are all
things that I'm trying to put
down into into a playbook and a
framework that isn't just in my
head, because you know, you'll
know this as well from from
forming your business. It can be
very much a case of, I just, I
just do it right, and that will
be the thing that I'm looking
forward to most, to finishing,
is that blueprint of what's the
first man, first time manager,
need to do in their first,
second, third, fourth month. So
if they were to receive coaching
from me or from anyone else,
whether they did it for 123456,
months, they know what they're
able to achieve at the end of
that period. And the chances are
the things they think they have
to do are things they have to do
later, not immediately, there'll
be more pressing and burning
issues to deal with. Straight
off the bat. Can
Mark Ackers: you give me some
examples of things that they
often prioritise that can wait
John Mason: they want to put
their stamp on something. So
they're going to change the
sales terminology that they use
or process, you know? We're
going to start using medic, you
know, or we're going to get this
new bit of tech in. I think a
lot of people, when they come in
new try to put their stamp on
things. I think that they feel
the need to impress, especially
if they've been promoted. You
know, did we deserve and earn
that promotion, or did we kind
of wing it? And then you start
to try and do things that we
think can impress? The most
important thing I think you need
to do is understand your current
state. So what are the team
doing now? What are your
metrics, the average order,
value, conversion, ratio,
velocity, etc, and get hold of
that plan that you spoke about
there, where your target must be
based on some sorry, your quota
must be based on some
assumptions. You know, we're
going to get this many leads and
convert them for this much
value. Reverse engineer your
target. Are your current metrics
going to going to get you there?
Do you need to improve the
metrics? What metrics do you
need to improve? Where can you
get help improving
Mark Ackers: them? Let's talk
about metrics. Because one of
the things I've enjoyed is
you've spoken in the past about
leaders chasing the wrong
metrics, and when they chase the
wrong metrics, it encourages the
wrong behaviour. And you give
the example of the hospital
being measured on waiting times.
Tell us. All about that analogy
and how that links to the wrong
metrics and the wrong behaviours
as a result.
John Mason: Yeah, it's nothing
that I've come up with. I've
definitely heard it from someone
else, probably Rory Sutherland,
who's a brilliant marketing
genius. So if you said to an A
and E department, you need to
reduce a and e waiting times, if
they focus on the number as
opposed to the patient outcome,
they will do things which ticks
that operational number box that
doesn't actually solve the
problem. And what actually does
happen in a live example is you
have patients in corridors. You
have patients still in
ambulances that have not been
admitted to any yet, because if
we admit them, the clock starts,
so let's keep them outside in
the ambulance, then our clock
doesn't start. None of those
things actually solve the issue.
They just deal with the symptoms
rather than the root cause. So
if you chase the number, I've
got to hit 100 dials a day, what
you're going to do then is
consider success being hit 100
dials, whereas if you turn
around and say, I want to have
20 meaningful conversations,
completely different thing, you
know, again, it's a bit metricy.
You could have 20 meaningful
conversations in 20 dials, or
you could have 20 meaningful
conversations in 100 dials. You
try to do something that isn't
just that tick box exercise of
Look what we did, because 100
dials a day doesn't get you to
quota. It might do by fluke, but
ultimately, you want to book two
appointments, three
appointments, make a sale. So
look at the root causes of the
things you're trying to achieve,
the outcomes, not just the
symptoms and the metrics,
Mark Ackers: sales leaders. I
guarantee this, the forecast
you're looking at isn't
accurate. Why? Because your reps
have deals that become stuck in
the pipeline, things like
champion leaving, not being
taken to power competitor enters
the deal at the last minute.
They're ghosting. You imagine if
your reps had access on demand
to support where they could get
one to one deal coaching with
one of our expert coaches.
That's what we provide. Your
reps can use it proactively.
Perhaps they've got a meeting
coming up and they want to
ensure they're putting their
best foot forward. They can book
time with a coach and prepare
for that upcoming meeting, or
perhaps it's reactively. There's
a snag, there's a last minute
problem. They need help moving
an opportunity forward. They can
book same day coaching with one
of our expert sales coaches and
get help deal. Coaching gives
your reps every opportunity to
secure the best outcome and keep
your forecast as accurate as
possible. One of the things that
I'd love to get your take on is,
how does a sales leader draw
judgement on the team that
perhaps have inherited and their
true capabilities, their
weaknesses, the opportunities to
improve. How does a sales leader
go about getting that insight
without having their biasness
affect what they believe to be
true? What do you see sales
leaders do to get a real grip on
where the team are today and
where they need to get them to I
think
John Mason: it's really
important, because you might
have biases positive and
negative. You might think
someone is taking their foot off
the gas, or that they are
really, really good at their
job, and they're not that. I
think the way that you would try
to understand the real scenario
of what's happening, not just
your biases, is to get into the
data. The data will tell you
what their average order value
is, the average order value of
the team of the other members.
Where do they stack in
comparison? Where is the
comparison average for the
industry, you know, how well are
you guys as an individuals or
team, doing we can be over
inundated with data in sales.
You know, we've never had more
data at our fingertips, but have
we had the right data at our
fingertips? You know, I believe,
I believe this. Since I first
saw an OMG sales assessment,
I've done one myself as well. It
is brutally honest, like you
said, honest, like you said, can
really open up your eyes. And I
remember seeing Ben from OMG and
Tim Ergo from toggle consulting
present at a CRO event that I
was at, and I just sort of
looked at it and I went, this is
the data that you need to
understand. You know, the 21
different outputs that you can
factor into, whether it's a
sales DNA, their ability to
accept rejection, the
negotiating skills, etc, see
whether or not you've got the
right people in the right jobs.
This was a presentation on, you
know, the cost of hiring, the
strain of resource and getting
it wrong. You know, you could
have SDRs that become AES
because they think that is their
career path, but they could be
the best SDR since sliced bread,
and make a terrible AE, they
could actually be the best CSM
person ever, unless you actually
look for the right data to
understand your your team or
your future hires, I think you
will just get cluttered by the
bias and potentially This noise
unnecessary data.
Mark Ackers: Yeah, so the
assessments you speak about,
yeah, like, just for those
listening, that's exactly the
same assessment that I spoke
about when I when it highlighted
to me that my motivation, I
believe everyone's motivated
like I am, and it was a big
learning point for me that
having that data is paramount,
because it gives you that
crystal. Clear insight into the
team and the individuals. And
here's what you notice,
everyone's different. Everyone
has different strengths, be that
tactically, but more
importantly, that mindset piece
that we spoke about. And if you
can't fix the mindset and the
behaviours, it doesn't really
matter what you help them with
tactically, because they've got
what I would call like hand
brakes on that affect their
mental the mental side of sales
that you know they're let's give
some examples, right? So they
might have a poor operating
system so they need to be liked
and loved by their prospects.
They are uncomfortable talking
about money. They let people buy
from them, how they buy
themselves? Let's talk about
their natural drive. They might
have a high desire to be
successful, but a low commitment
to actually doing it. You know,
they don't actually want to do
things that are uncomfortable,
even though they'd love to be
successful. Perhaps they don't
take responsibility for the
number that that's been set, and
they'll always blame marketing
or leads or events or the
economy rather than how
effective they were. And I think
this links really nicely,
because you know, if you have
that data, I mean doing these
assessments, I think it could
take you years to get that level
of insight, which you can get
within an hour of someone
completing an assessment, but
you've spoken about frameworks
and hard data, and you mentioned
it earlier on, like one of the
things that people should leave
until later is a framework,
right that you gave the example
of, I think it's a med pick.
Why? Why do you feel like people
prefer the comfort of frameworks
versus the discomfort of data. I
John Mason: think it comes down
to the we think it's a silver
bullet. We think it's the thing
that's going to solve our
problems. You know, make $100 a
day, have a tech system that's
got a million different data
points use AI, implement a new
framework, a new sales
methodology. This is the reason
why my team is not successful.
This is going to solve all my
problems. I think that's what we
fall foul of. You should deploy
medic when you want to
understand how you can go from a
30% conversion ratio to a 40%
conversion ratio, which areas of
the process are maybe lacking.
So, you know, is it
understanding the economic
buyer. Is it understanding the
competition? Is it understanding
decision criteria, etc? Who does
what at what stages, and who
does it well and things like
that. That's what should be
done. But what actually happens
more often than not, is people
go, Yeah, let's put medic or med
pick in, and you just feel your
CRM nonsense. You don't actually
take the learnings. I know,
obviously, you know, seeing a
few reports that yourselves, my
sales coach and other training
providers, or SaaS providers in
the tech space, in the sales
space, have put out there that
more often than not, things are
more successful when a good
discovery is done. You know,
things are more successful when
the more people you know, fill
out medic correctly, not just as
tick box exercise, but as an
outcome exercise. If I do these
things correctly, I'm going to
be successful. The correctly bit
is important. If I do these
things, I'll be successful. It
doesn't work all of the time. It
only works some of the time. So
I think that's why people jump
to that silver bullet, the thing
is going to make their team
better. What is missing? You
know, it's volume. Let's get a
parallel dialer, 200 dials. It's
tech. Let's get to get LEM list,
and let's get fully rich. It's
AI. Let's send out 1000 emails
that they're all personalised.
Or it's a new sales methodology
and framework. If I just deploy
this, it will be fantastic.
Mark Ackers: I think it's just
something to hide behind. You
can point to look, I've done
this, I've deployed this
technology, I've deployed this
framework. It's not me. It's not
my fault. It's gone wrong. I
think when most companies want
to there's here's here's the
things that sales leaders really
care about, right? It's
headlines, of course, but
improving revenue, improving
pipeline, upsell, cross, sell,
and when you think about those
things, they're like, they're
headline problems, right? We
want more revenue. We want
revenue from different places.
We know we need more pipeline to
do that, and where most revenue
is lost is in the quality of
your sales team, sales
conversations, right? Like what
they do and what they don't do
in those sales conversations,
that's where your company leaks
revenue. But to go in and fix
that requires a manager, one, to
spend the time, two, to put
themselves out there and say,
This is where I think you've
gone wrong, and it's their
opinion, it's their belief, it's
their coaching and and I think
that that sometimes is hard for
a manager to do. There's that
imposter syndrome, there's that
self doubt, there's that I don't
want to give this feedback to
this individual. I don't want to
carve out time. You know,
listening to calls is time
consuming. I. I know, and again,
I get slightly worried that
people feel like they can hide
behind Oh, we'll just automate
that now. We can build a
scorecard in conversation
intelligence, and that will
surface it. But the art of the
sales conversation is where most
companies leak revenue. And it
might not be in that call, but
it would be what didn't happen
that call is the reason your
deal much further down the line
doesn't come in, or it slips, or
they ghost you. And I think, I
think if you can hide behind,
well, the medic scorecards
filled out, or, you know, we've
done some training on this, or
I've done a DISC profile on the
team. It's stuff you can hide
behind,
John Mason: just tick box
exercise, isn't it? It's
Mark Ackers: just tick
box. But what you have to do as
a sales leader is immerse
yourself in what is the quality
of the conversations my sales
team are having. And to do that,
you have to really put yourself
out there. And there's no way to
hide. I've listened to this
call. This is what I think we
need to be doing differently,
and then putting that into
practice. But just because you
do it once doesn't mean it
changes. It's a constant
listening to calls and
reinforcement. But I don't know.
I feel like a lot of leaders are
reluctant to do that because of
time, because of will and skill.
It is a skill to be able to
listen to and coach sales
conversations effectively that
drive positive change as well,
where it's not a skill to
implement a framework, it's you
get it done, and you maybe bring
someone in, or a consultant or
and whatnot. So that's my
thinking. But what would you say
to that? I'd
John Mason: agree. I definitely
think it's something to hide
behind. And like you said, then,
you know, just use a scorecard
and get AI to read all our read
all of our transcripts from our
calls and tell us what was good
or bad. But if you actually
listen to the calls, you might
pick up on some nuances that are
just completely subjective to
that call, that interaction
between that client and that AE
or that SDR that you wouldn't
pick up just from the scorecard.
And if that thing that has come
up is actually a much deeper
root cause or underlying
problem. It's something to fix.
You'll find it quicker. I think
you can leverage AI to identify
which calls to listen to, so
that, because, yeah, you can't
listen to all of them rather
than randomly checking them. Can
we be a bit more selective? Same
way we would do it for ICP, is
there a way which I can filter
this data down so that I've got
the greater chance of listening
to a call that I can actually
gain a teachable moment from
it's also a difficult
conversation. You've got to tell
someone that they're, you know,
not doing it right. Is that
opinion, you know? Is it fact?
Is it subjective? How do they
take criticism? How do you
deliver criticism? You know, do
you do the sandwich method or
various other words? Do you, as
a leader, take time to go? I'm
not being coached on how to do
this. Let me go and research how
to do it. You spoke earlier in
this, in this interview where
you said you're constantly
saying as an SDR to your AE, can
I take this off your plate? Not
everyone thinks of that instant
what I can do next. Some people
are waiting to be told. As a
sales leader, you need to very
quickly realise you need to work
out what you need and where you
can get it, what your team needs
and where they can get
Mark Ackers: it. And I think
that's a lovely way to bring the
conversation to a close. I
really enjoyed getting to get
into speech here today, John,
you know, we've spoke about how
people fall into leadership
roles. They might chase it
because they're a top performer,
and it feels like the next step.
How companies back it, because
they feel like they're a company
that's showing progression, and
they don't want to lose their
top performer, we spoke about
the challenges that can bring
where they don't want to lose
the revenue so they give them
the quota as well. And when I
spoke about how leadership is
just a completely different job,
like different skills, different
pressures, different emotional
load, and you need people to
help you make that shift. You
need support from the
organisation. We need support
from internal and external
coaching. And we need to not
just focus on the month and the
quarter, but look ahead and
really put our team forward,
team first, I should say. And I
love the parent analogy, and I
think to anyone that's got kids
myself included, I think that
really does bring it to life.
But yeah, John, I just want to
say, yeah, thank you for sharing
your knowledge and expertise
today. I think this is a great
episode for anybody that is
thinking about making the step
into a leadership role, or
they've just got their first
leadership role, and they're
thinking shit, what do I do on a
Monday? Thank you, John, you're
John Mason: welcome. Thank you.
Mark Ackers: You.