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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back, everyone.
I've got Kansas with me, Kansas Carradine.
It's always a massive treat to be
anywhere in the vicinity, even virtually
from Kansas Carradine because she
carries a certain light with her.
She's not just a master horsewoman.
She's not just somebody who has, hmm,
brought the compassionate side of
the horse world many steps forward.
She's not just those things.
She's also someone who carries a
technology with her that if you're
involved in the equine-assisted world as
we are it's a necessary technology for
us to understand, and it's HeartMath.
This is not the only thing she does
and not the only thing she offers, but
it's where-- something I think I want
to start with, with this conversation
because HeartMath comes up a lot in
The Horse Boy and Tacking trainings.
It comes up a lot in quite
a lot of other modalities.
But a lot of people are a bit unsure
about what it actually is, how it
actually works, and why it's a thing.
So it's silly to have me explain
that because I'm somebody who
benefits from HeartMath rather than
being a practitioner of HeartMath.
So those of you listening, if you
are involved in the equine-assisted
practice of any kind, it is something
that I think one needs to understand,
and it is something which I would
actually encourage you to add to your
modalities and actually take a course in.
But let's start with why that
might be a good idea and then we'll
take the conversation from there.
So Ka-Kansas, thank you so much.
Tell us all about it.
Thank
Kansas Carradine: you, Rupert.
Thank you so much for having me on.
And yeah, you know, we all carry
around with us our, our connection
to source, our connection to the The
energetic world, you know, we're all
energy beings, and when you talk about
HeartMath, they've been putting around
research, and it's really two things.
You talk about the HeartMath system
or it, it is a modality, but it's
also an institute of research.
Right.
So the organization at HeartMath and
the scientists there have really been
very interested in the energetics
of communication, the energetics
of how we relate to each other.
The heart itself is an
electromagnetic organ, so it's
always broadcasting and receiving.
And I often say in the equine
world, horses are very well known
for sensing our fear, but they can
also sense other emotions, right?
So they can sense our appreciation.
They can sense our compassion,
which you spoke already about.
They can sense our patience.
They can sense our
self-importance and our arrogance.
And all of that is, is being
broadcast very subtly, and they're
picking up on it all the time.
And I first stumbled upon HeartMath
actually at a, a retreat, a spiritual
retreat in Los Angeles with a, with
a teacher named Gangaji, and I met
one of the practitioners, as you
mentioned, so people who've decided
to study the science of the heart.
You know, we talk so much in the
poetry about how the heart has
meaning and assigns, it gives
us a sense of courage, right?
In French, coeur is heart.
When we're full of heart- Mm.
Courage.
Yeah ... we're full of care.
Courage, yeah.
We're connected.
From the heart.
Yeah.
We're connected to that heart power,
and it can give us really a motivation.
It gives us energy, and it gives us
a sense of inner alignment, right?
So connected to our purpose.
And what they found, the institute
researchers, is that heart coherence is
a measurable state, that just like in
a symphony, the conductor of the heart
is creating an organization between all
the organs and actions within our body.
So when we're connected to something
that we care about, connected to our
purpose, connected to the sense and the
feeling of appreciation, it actually
organizes things within our being, and
that creates an even tempo to follow.
So I love the marriage of bringing this
into the equine therapy work, especially
with Hor- Horse Boy Method, because so
much of it is about creating rhythm,
and that organized rhythm, that tempo,
like humans who are involved in dancing
or posting trot, you know, sitting in,
in a collected trot in the piaffe and
passage and the high school movements.
This is all creating a sense of tempo and
rhythm within the body, and your heart
is doing a similar thing all the time.
And one of the ways that we practice
that is also consciously, because
it happens accidentally when we're
connected to things that bring us joy.
When you are connected with your cat
who comes up on your, on your lap, for
example, or you're just appreciating
like the beauty of a landscape and
watching the natural world, you
are experiencing a sense of ease
and that creates order and rhythm.
But then we can deliberately do that also
by noticing breath patterns, so there's
an integrated with your breath pattern.
In fact, right now all of the
listeners can just focus their
attention on the chest area, the heart.
And there's actually over 40,000
different neurons within the heart,
this intrinsic cardiac nervous system.
So there's a tiny heart brain
that is really recognized.
So as you collaborate with
your heart intelligence, just
focus your attention there.
And as you breathe, imagine that
your breath is flowing in and out
through the chest area and just
a little bit slower and a little
bit deeper than you usually do.
And invite in an even inhale and exhale.
So for this practice, we want
the breath to come in through
the heart and out through the
heart at an even and equal pace.
And just that 30-second pause of
slowing down right away begins to
balance the autonomic nervous system.
And we can take it a step further
by connecting to our care.
What do you love?
What brings you joy?
What inspires you?
Or what makes you laugh?
Before we started the recording,
we were talking about laughter.
And it's a great medicine because
it's a portal to the heart.
It creates a heart opening.
And practicing that on a regular
basis reminds us the sweet spot.
It's the same feeling that we get when
we're experiencing lightness in the
saddle that we want to continue to-- Our
muscle memory continues to seek that out.
And then the very interesting part of
the research, 'cause there's lots of
different domains that the institute
really has focused their attention of
study, but all of our emotions have
an impact on our body, and they also
have an impact on the social energetics
that we share in the room with.
So some people are doing Reiki, some
people are working with, you know, a
hands-on balancing of the energetic
systems, and the heart is working
within this unique electromagnetic
field environment that we can feel
when we are in each other's space.
So there's a very famous picture
that people send around that
has this toric field, right?
So about as wide as you
can stretch your hands.
Rupert Isaacson: What's a toric field?
Not everybody knows.
The
Kansas Carradine: toric, the toric field
is there's, It's, it's like an apple
core of energy that is coming up and out
from the heart, uprising up in front of
your body and extending out as far as
you can with your arms, and that's the
measurable pulse of the heart radiating.
And depending on what we're feeling,
whether it's joy or gratitude or
potentially fear or sadness, there
is a unique energetic fingerprint to
the feelings and emotions that we're
broadcasting out into that field.
Well, horses being so much larger than
we are, their hearts also broadcast a
much wider field, which is one of the
reasons why we're in the presence of
a grounded, coherent horse, and that's
very important why it feels so good.
Now, if we're in the presence of a
horse that is, In a state of fight or
flight, a horse that's been abused,
who's-- You know, I gave the example
yesterday when I was giving a talk.
Here in the American West, we're
still rounding up mustangs and
separating them from family bands
and whatnot with helicopters.
So if you were surrounded by that, horses
that were in that type of fight or flight
survival mode panic state, one would
not feel the same very low frequencies
and that same presence as being calming.
So it's very important to understand
that the coherent broadcast depends
on the individual, the being, and then
there's also this important component.
There's two terminals, right?
So when we're connected to our
appreciation and the facilitators are
doing that, they're creating a safe space.
Some of the people that I work with,
I love, they talk about creating a
failure-free space, which is very
much I believe Horse Boy method aims
to do through all of its programs.
The human's facilitation of that,
along with the hor- horse kind of being
that, that fuel, that energetic, and is
where the facilitator is guiding that
energetic of compassion, of safety,
of care, of understanding, laughter,
love- Well-being ... all of that.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well-being.
That's what's the magic ingredient that's
creating some of these interactions,
and we're gonna hear more and more
about research studies from HeartMath
as as the instrumentation becomes more
popular within the equine therapy sector.
I'm, I'm confident of that.
There's different documentaries where
they're talking more and more about it.
But a- again, I love you saying
it's a modality that we can add on.
There's more to just the breath practice,
but that's really the primary component.
Rupert Isaacson: I was gonna ask
a question, but I don't, I don't
want to- We can all add that
onto what we're already doing
I don't want to- No, go ahead ... I
don't want to interrupt.
Please finish that thought, and
then I'll go with my questions.
Kansas Carradine: Yeah, just I
love the fact that it's an add-on
to what we're already doing.
So it's not something that you have
to stop and say, "Okay, well, I'm
practicing this, that means I can't
do this thing at the other time."
Right?
As I'm riding in the saddle, and as I
mentioned, I was introduced to this 20
years ago, and it became such a a personal
technique that I was using to my equine
entertainment a- interactions, right?
So I was a acrobatic stunt rider with the
equestrian show that was touring around
the world called Cavalia for many years.
And we worked with a lot
of stallions, and we had...
Actually, we had, one of our shows,
we had, like, 70 head of horses, all
geldings, many of them stallions.
It's a very strange environment
when I first got there.
I thought, "This is way too m-
where's all the mares around here?"
But we had lots of women in the
cast and, of course, in the stables
doing a lot of brilliant work.
But it, there was a lot of
masculine, strong energy.
And so, having, and I wouldn't say
the control you know, we talk a
lot about, like, self-control and
self-regulation, and that comes from a
very rigid, dominating mindset really.
But it's about how to partner and how
to blend with these energies because
we wanted to have this full-bodied
equine and their, we want their
feisty nature, and it's beautiful.
It's why people come and pay tickets-
Yeah, you want passion ... to see that.
And, and that, that's why
you have the stallions.
The
passion.
Yeah.
And the unex- and the unexpected quality.
Mm.
I always tease that we're only
used to working, you know, with the
eunuchs, the geldings, and people
don't even like to work with mares.
We don't like the full hormonal
experience that equines bring to us.
It's unpredictable.
Interesting.
I've never understood that.
It's a blend with that.
Rupert Isaacson: W- I, I hear a lot of
people say, "Oh, I don't like mares."
It's like, I love mares.
I've always loved mares.
I've never understood- Right, right
... why people have these weird attitudes.
But I can- Yeah ... understand
how if you've got a traveling show
with a bunch of stallions, that if
you have mares coming into season-
Stallions ... this could introduce
danger- Certainly ... for people.
Certainly.
And y- practically, it's
probably you're choosing-
Exactly ... the one or the other.
But yeah, yeah.
'Cause of the confined spaces.
Exactly.
Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
Right.
Right.
There's lots of factors that go into that.
And then when I was also navigating
through my own mental health,
and nobody was talking about
mental health at that time.
Mm.
But I was looking at HeartMath as a way
for my own emotional self-regulation
just to make it through the day.
Is that why you found
And I added it
on.
Correct.
Okay.
I was not seeking- 'Cause that,
that's the question I had ... how
can I be a better horse trainer?
I was not looking around
seeking new modalities.
At that time I was just, like many
people, trying to make it through
the day, trying to make it through
Rupert Isaacson: the day.
So how did you...
But we find many things when we're looking
for solutions for our mental health thing.
And just playing pure devil's advocate
for the breathing exercise, which
is totally sound, we know it works.
I just did it with you.
I felt it work.
A skeptic would say, "Ah,
but those breathing exercises
have been around forever.
You know, how, why is this HeartMath
thing, you know, trademarking
something which, you know, is
just something which we do?"
We all know that if we take a deep
breath for a few seconds things
are gonna go better, our heart rate
will come down, blah, blah, blah.
That's what a skeptic might say.
Now, you and I both know that
what HeartMath have done is
start to measure and prove.
Mm.
And one of the great contributions
that science makes is often not so
much the breakthrough discoveries.
It's about often the confirmation of
why the common sense thing that we've
been using forever works, so that
when someone comes along and says,
"Actually, you've got to hit kids to
make them work," then you can say- Mm
"No, here is the science about why
being nice to kids- Mm ... actually
makes them learn better."
Because that's sort of
why we need these things.
So the skeptics, you know, when they
say, "Ah, well, we know how to breathe."
It's like, "Well, yes, but
you don't know why it works."
Mm.
And if you know why it works, then
when someone comes along and is sh-
yelling at you in a horsey situation,
and you say to them, or in a therapeutic
situation, 'cause it does happen,
and people often yell when they
don't even think they're yelling.
And you say, "Well, actually, look,
if you do it like this, it's, it'll
be nicer and it'll work better."
And then they go, "Well, if one
has the science, then the doesn't
last as long and we get change.
So one of the great things I think
about the HeartMath Institute is that
they have put measures on things.
So I'd like you to talk us through
that a little bit, but also just talk
about, you don't have to, you know,
tell us the absolute nitty-gritty of
your mental health stuff, but what was,
what was the main nuts and bolts of
why at that particular time you were
looking for some mental health answers?
And then how come you found
that as opposed to other things
that people find, you know?
Mm.
I'm, I'm curious, always curious about,
you know, what's the system of happy
accidents by which- Mm-hmm ... people fall
into the good technologies that they find.
So first, you know, a little bit of your
story, however much you wanna share, or
don't share is fine, and then into how
you actually, why it was this and not
something else, given that you were in
California where there's a smorgasbord
of good mental health stuff available.
Kansas Carradine: Certainly, certainly.
Well, one of the things that I
wanna go back and rewind is you
talked about like why does it
work for, to a certain degree- Mm.
... when you, you, you know, you use
strong force, you know, shouting
or corporal punishment and whatnot.
And that was actually one of the questions
that I had, and this is interrelated
as why is it works with horses.
Because I was never willing to, to be
the person who would go to that extreme.
Mm.
And the people who would, obviously
they get a lot of times quite fantastic
exemplary results to a certain degree.
And I was very curious about
that question, like why does
this type of training seem to
have high levels of success?
And I was w- working with, or
excuse me, I was speaking at
a a conference and I met Dr.
Steven Peters, who I know
you speak about a lot.
Mm.
One of my heroes, yeah.
And he said something to me, even though
that I had been studying heart math for
probably about two decades at that point.
He said something that really
connected the dots and just, you know,
turned off a bunch of light bulbs.
And he said, "We keep-- we need a little
bit of sympathetic arousal in order
to have that engagement for learning."
And that really got my attention
because I had been learning about the
autonomic nervous system, which I'm
sure many of your listeners also are.
So the parasympathetic and the
sympathetic are two branches of
the autonomic nervous system.
Bang on that, yeah.
And one of them is responsible for
the els- els- ele- acceleration.
The other one is that parachute.
I could never remember it until
someone said the parachute is
gently bringing us down to earth.
Mm-hmm.
And you spoke about how there's
lots of breathing exercises,
and many of them work.
And when we want to slow things down
'cause we're in a hyperventilating state
or we've had a fright, maybe someone's
fallen off of a horse, you really
wanna slow things down by doing that
double or even longer exhale, right?
That's putting the brakes on our system.
And there's other techniques, you know,
those who've traveled in India might
have done some pranayama breathing.
And when you have fast accelerated breath-
That's creating an awakening energy.
It's like having a cup of coffee.
You're like, "Okay, I need to
wake up," without the caffeine,
right?
Mm-hmm.
So our breath, we don't really
understand all of the mechanisms of
it, and it's more than just relaxation.
So that's a really important point.
HeartMath is not a relaxation technique.
For some people who are in a high level
of stress with all of the work that we
have to do, and the phones, and the EMFs,
yes, we need to soothe the nervous system.
But that's not what it does to someone
who is in a shutdown state where
their parasympathetic is locked in.
It can actually start to create a
little bit of an increasing energy,
or what I love, thank you so much to
Stephen Peters, is it creates that
little bit of sympathetic arousal-
Yeah, excitement ... which we need.
Yeah.
And then we get into that sweet spot,
so that's why it's the balancing, okay?
And I say that a lot because I
think people really fetish being
in parasympathetic all the time.
But someone who's depressed, and now
I'm circling back to your question, like
I was, does not need more relaxation.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kansas Carradine: Okay?
Mm.
And so I had, Yeah, 'cause you need to
Rupert Isaacson: move from where you are.
Yes.
Kansas Carradine: Right.
Right.
And what is interesting is the
heart has this adaptogenic response.
Adaptogenic meaning it is a tonic
that will come in to either create
that nerve you know, a nerve
tonic like ginseng or ashwagandha.
These are herbs that will either soothe
the nervous system to be able to rest
and sleep better at night, or to be
alert enough to handle the tasks during
the day, whether it's going to school
or going to work and whatnot, right?
And so the heart has that
same adaptogenic response.
And I first discovered it, or I, I should
say I was on a-- I was a spiritual seeker,
so beyond my mental health, I was just
trying to find meaning in life, right?
And so quite interesting, my ancestor
was actually a a minister and had
written, oh gosh, like two dozen books
on the sanc- sanctification and on
his relationship and walk with Jesus.
And they're still in print.
They are still highly valued.
Beverly Carradine was his name.
He had, Two
Rupert Isaacson: thousand
Kansas Carradine: books?
Five to seven.
He, he wrote like two dozen, like
24 books on the sanctification.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, two dozen.
Okay.
Right.
Sorry, I heard two thousand.
Two dozen.
Two
Kansas Carradine: dozen.
Rupert Isaacson: Whoa, he was busy.
No, two
Kansas Carradine: dozen.
Sorry.
Yeah.
No, that would be quite extraordinary.
It would be-- Yeah.
He'd still be going, I think.
Yes.
Yeah.
No.
But still, still two dozen, and the
fact that there's anything in print you
know, from Carradine is interesting.
Two dozen is,
Rupert Isaacson: is--
Do you-- When was that?
Beverly Carradine?
Kansas Carradine: Well,
he was in the late 1800s.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll look him up.
In the South- Make a note
now ... he was a Southern
Kansas Carradine: minis- minister.
Okay.
And and so, you know, fascinatingly
enough, I had been raised around a lot
of I guess more esoteric introductions
whether it was from Eastern thought and
Eastern religion, and then my mom was a
very devout Catholic, and my grandmother
on my father's side was Christian Science.
And so, a lot of influences in
that way, and this desire to,
you know, understand the unseen.
I'll just put it that way.
Whatever your search for is with
spirituality or something- Mm-hmm
... that's a little bit mysterious, we're
trying to understand the unseen, 'cause
we spend- The ineffable ... so much time
in our education focusing on the 3D,
focusing on that which is tangible, and
only really relying on our visual sense.
And so it was-- there was this intuitive
thing that was inside that was encouraging
me to turn and look inward and get
to exploring the inner mysteries.
But when I turned and looked
inward, it was not a pleasant place.
It was not a happy place.
I was really distraught, and there was
a lot of imprinting and conditioning
in my, in my youth and in my
childhood that were really traumatic.
And so like anyone, I was trying to cope
with the best strategies that I could.
I did not have stable,
you know, parenting.
I did both my parents had a lot of
addiction and substance abuse that was
very distracting for them to parenting.
And then when I was 11, I ran
away to a horse camp in the
Central Valley of California.
And I ended up being raised by the
people who owned that horse program,
and they happened to- Did your
parents sort of breathe a sigh of
Rupert Isaacson: relief when you did that
and say, "Okay, now we don't really need
to-" But what I mean is did they like
arrive in a car and say, "Get back in
this car, young lady," or did they sort of
say, "Actually, she's following her heart.
This is cool.
We trust these people."
See what I mean?
My dad
Kansas Carradine: did that.
My, my mom was already out
of the picture at that point.
Okay.
So she wasn't really a player.
But my my dad did that,
and it really came from me.
So I went to this horse ranch, and I
may have spoken about this before on
Rupert Isaacson: different
other podcasts- You have, yeah.
But tell us again
because- ... which is why I
Kansas Carradine: talk about it in a kind
of like, "Oh, this is that old story."
The Reata Ranch.
But it was a really interesting moment.
So I'm, I'm, I'm in sixth grade.
I was asked, or I was, My stepmother
at the time, my evil step-monster
who, bless her soul, was the catalyst
to get me into this horse ranch
because she was from that region.
So someone said, "Hey, if you wanna get
rid of your stepdaughter for the summer,
this is a good place to send her to."
And so I went to this ranch for two
weeks, and I was living, breathing,
and just digesting horses constantly.
And the first thing that we do, I
thought I was more of a hunter-jumper,
and so I showed up in britches and
a helmet, and the first thing that
we did is put our swimming suits on
and ride the horses bareback down
to the river and swim the horses.
I mean- That would make you
wanna stay ... it was amazing.
Yeah.
It was sensory exercise.
Yeah.
I was like, "I never wanna leave."
Yeah.
And we rode, we started at 7:00 in the
morning, and we had another session, you
know, at 7:00 PM because of the hot days
in the Central Valley in the summer.
Mm.
So we were swimming with
the horses every day.
We were learning timing to be with them
in that rhythmic sort of way, and there
was a massive amount of rigid structure.
And so for seven years I went to
summer camp and never came home.
And basically, when I, I went back
to go into the world that was chaotic
and without purpose and meaning at
11 years old, I was strong enough
to say, "I don't wanna do that.
I wanna go back and stay
at this horse ranch."
And so I advocated for that,
and that was where my dad was
involved, and he, he called the
owners and, "Is this really okay?
Can she move in?"
They said, "Yes, absolutely.
We've done that a few times."
They had had over 2,000 different
students, and there was maybe a handful
of kind of wayward souls who for different
reasons with their families had actually
moved in under the roof of the, of
the trainers, and it was basically,
you know, a gentleman and his wife.
And so- This is the Reata- ... it
was very, very rigid.
Right.
That was Reata Ranch, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And it was rigid, you said.
They
Kansas Carradine: have passed away.
It was extremely rigid.
It was extremely strong.
It was extremely...
It was exactly what you were describing of
that yelling in order to get things done.
Very, very kind and
compassionate to the horses.
Very, very harsh and condescending
and disparaging to the riders.
Rupert Isaacson: Yet you wanted to stay.
Kansas Carradine: Yet I wanted to
stay because I had had no, no care.
I had had no boundaries.
And so there was a part of me that-
Really embraced the structure,
the regularity- Can I ask
Rupert Isaacson: a question?
When, when you said, And the horses
here's a question quickly.
When you said you showed up in your
hunter jumper outfit and they said,
"Put your swimsuit on, we're gonna go
swim with the horses," that sounded...
Yeah, that's obviously to do that safely
you need some structures and some good
horsemanship, but that didn't sound rigid.
So- Mm-hmm
then you said, "Oh, it was very rigid."
So I was like, ooh, that doesn't sound...
You know.
So can you just- Right ... what
was the paradox there?
Kansas Carradine: The paradox is I was
staying because of the horses, you know?
If, if, if there's listeners right
now who've been in any discipline,
and maybe it's not even you know,
horses, maybe it's gymnastics.
Mm-hmm.
You know, these, these sports that
are known for having very, very
strong discipline and structure-
Mm-hmm ... especially in the '80s, right?
Mm.
The Bela Karolyi kinda era.
And but we're in it because there's
a love, there's a passion for the
actual- Got it ... sport itself.
Mm-hmm.
And a love for the horses.
Mm-hmm.
And even though the sport was supposed
to be this trick riding discipline- And
the self-development ... to be able to be
free and be on the horses- You, you, your
Rupert Isaacson: skills- ... was
amazing ... expand, right.
Yeah.
Kansas Carradine: Most certainly.
And there was a, a large amount of
praise- Mm ... of saying, "Okay,
we are going to develop you.
We are going to focus on you.
We, I believe in you.
You can do this."
Because that's an interesting thing
about a po- a coach, and I'll rewind
that back into the equine therapy sector
too, because as a facilitator, you
see the possibility in another being.
And so your vision, the visionary aspect
of the facilitator, the caregiver,
is that I know you can do this.
The recognition of talent.
I see something that you don't see in
this moment right now, and that's what
even a strict coach or trainer is doing.
You know, there was a moment where
I was asked to do a, a full bridge
backbend on a horse at a gallop in a
big arena, and I had been practicing
it in, in like a 90-foot round pen.
And he asked me to go do it, and I
probably could have in that moment,
but I was scared and I said no.
And I just remember like,
"That's too much for me.
I'm not ready to do that trick yet."
And I had to train for it for like over
a year, maybe almost a year and a half.
And then when I finally
got to the point- Mm
but he had trained me and trained
me, "I know she can do it.
I know she can get there.
I see something in her
that she doesn't see yet."
He saw the potential, he saw the aptitude,
the talent, and all of those things,
you know, and the mental aspect as well.
And so I think that as- aspect of the,
the leader who was, at times it was
almost like there was a lot of love
involved, there was a lot of care, but
it all came through this tough love
and through a lot of very abrasive...
You know, we were not allowed to talk
and that really imprinted and seeded you
know, this contrast of su- suppression.
And so I wasn't allowed to
express- Talk during the coaching,
Rupert Isaacson: during the
training sessions or talk ever?
You were silent for seven years?
Kansas Carradine: We were pretty silent
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Kansas Carradine: And so- Was it,
was it- ... that suppression- Was
spoken to- ... in that presence,
so in the presence of the, the work
container of, like, being at the ranch.
Then after you know, after school,
in school, and with other people,
I was very, very loquacious.
And so I was always known for
being, you know, "You talk
too much, you talk too fast."
And I was e- encouraged to
really be quiet in a way.
It's like, okay, shut the
F up and listen inwards-
Rupert Isaacson: Got a question ... to
my own change Not a question, but
something that we need to make clear.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So for the people listening-
Yeah ... the Riata Ranch, just so
you have some context, that they
weren't just doing this in a vacuum.
What I mean by that is
this was a display team.
This was a professional team that was
going around the country really and doing
these trick displays at a very high level.
So, just some context there.
It wasn't just this isolated place
in the mountains where they put
kids through a sort of Shaolin-type
horse experience for its own sake.
It was indeed a, you know,
a, a, a money-making show.
The second thing is that this
is a question you were going
to school in this time or they
homeschooled you at the ranch?
Kansas Carradine: I was
going to public school.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you'd get up in the morning, you'd go
to school, you'd come back to there, and
you would then begin your work with the
horses once you arrived back at the ranch.
Kansas Carradine: Yes.
Yes, and what you said about
the Shaolin school is actually
really apropos, but go ahead.
Rupert Isaacson: Then, well, usually
when you're in a monastic environment
like that as a kid, there's a bunch of
other kids going through it with you.
Was that also the case?
Was there a sisterhood?
Or were you the only one of your age
who was living there and the rest was
older ones who were living elsewhere
coming in and being part of the team?
Like, how, how did that work?
Kansas Carradine: I was the latter.
So I was the only one who was living
there and I stayed up at the house
for those seven years and with the
really loving embrace, with the loving
embrace of the, the main trainers.
His name was Tom Meyer and his
wife was Vicky and Vicky was just
a gem of any loving caregiver
that you could ever imagine and
write in a storybook, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: So you
were getting that nurturing?
Apple
Kansas Carradine: pie and all of that.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you- And- ... you
painted a picture of, of, of harsh
discipline using- Right ... humiliation
and screaming and, and so on.
Kansas Carradine: Oh, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Where was that coming in?
What was the balance?
Kansas Carradine: Yeah, so when I say that
this, you said the Shaolin school because
there was a methodical aspect to it.
Everything was, there was a
massive amount of importance
placed on every single detail.
Indeed.
So the way that we raked the pattern
in the yards, the way that we put up
our, all of our tools, it was very
systematic and that rhythm, that
expected rhythmic rhythm is therapeutic.
So- I can, I can say not all of the
2,000, or rather over 3,000 students
who passed through the threshold going
over the railroad tracks into this ranch
had the same experience that I did.
They had different upbringings
and they went to their families
at night, and I basically went,
you know, there was very...
I had very little visitors from family
'cause they were like, "Okay, Kansas
is there as kind of an afterthought."
So I was largely alone, and I was dealing
with my own abandonment is- issues.
And in the loving presence of, you
know, sweet Vicky, as I mentioned,
there was definitely a healing
that occurred on many, many levels.
But I was, like, somewhat of an only
child or very much raised that way.
And these other girls came in and out
and we developed a sisterhood, and yet
I was always kind of set apart in a very
different category, and also because
of my family upbringing and whatnot.
And so the suppression, I would
say, of being able to talk, and
mental health wasn't discussed.
There was no opportunity to, you know,
have a counselor, anything like that.
It was very much the philosophy
of you know, be tough as nails.
If you're experiencing any
pain, stuff it, continue.
The show must go on, like, was really the
moniker that I didn't d- start to really
dissect until much, much later in my life.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So there was this balance between
tough love and actual nurturing
love, enough that you, in the seven
years you were there, could function
when you went out into the world.
Why did you leave there and go on
out into the world, and where did
you go out into the world from?
Because I could imagine that there
was a, a career structure, and you
were from a bit of a showbiz family
anyway, and Reata Ranch is also showbiz.
So why...
And then you went into showbiz with
Cavalia took all that training and
discipline that you got from Reata
into that amazing Cavalia show.
So why didn't you stay with Reata?
Kansas Carradine: Because there was
a part of my soul that knew that
it was soul-crushing, I would say.
I actually wanted to leave earlier because
I wanted to pursue a Broadway career.
I really fancied myself a, a singer
and I wanted to quit the- Does
that mean you're gonna give us
Rupert Isaacson: a song?
Kansas Carradine: No, it's not.
Maybe someday.
Kansas- Maybe in person ... is
going to give us a
Rupert Isaacson: song.
Kansas Carradine: Thank
you so much- Kansas
Rupert Isaacson: is courage to
sing ... Kansas, for letting us know
Kansas Carradine: that.
Yeah.
It was- I'll sing one if you do
it was...
You'll sing one r- in
this moment right now.
Rupert Isaacson: When,
when, in this moment.
Kansas Carradine:
Somewhere over the rainbow.
No, I can't sing.
It's 6:00 in the morning.
Yeah, that was good.
K- keep going, keep going.
Rupert Isaacson: Somewhere
over the rainbow.
Kansas Carradine: Okay.
Now my performance anxiety is coming
up, which is why I learned heart
math, to make those things go away.
All right.
So I'm, I'm, I'll kick off.
No, just kidding.
All right.
Go.
Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high.
There's a land that I
heard of once in a lullaby.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: That was beautiful.
Your voice is beautiful.
But when I'm talking so
Kansas Carradine: fast,
we need to slow down.
And- And singing brings rhythm.
Singing h- tones the vagal nerve.
It does.
I- Right?
Rupert Isaacson: I always sing to the kids
when they're in front of me in the saddle.
I sing to my horses.
I sing all the old Scots-Irish lullabies
that my mom used to sing to me.
Oh ... and it calms me as well as them.
And of course, when you're body to body,
because they're up against my chest with
their back, so all the resonance- Oh
from my throat and diaphragm goes in.
And of course- Yes ... that was
me being comforted as a child, and
then I comforted Rowan that way, and
then it's gone into our practice.
But absolutely.
Mm.
But you have every right to fancy yourself
for Broadway, and perhaps you still
should- ... because that was really good.
And I might ask you for some more.
Okay.
Yeah.
But so, but w- given that- But singing,
Kansas Carradine: and that
brings a really good point.
So right, so singing was kind of
like my medicine of the moment.
So you would sing to yourself-
And I did want to sing.
I did need to sing.
I sang all the time.
So I was in a magical
choir in high school.
Okay.
I was doing some, some plays, and I wanted
to move to another location that- Got it.
So you were doing some drama at
school ... was more focused on...
Correct.
Rupert Isaacson: But given that
this was a show, the Reata Ranch
was a show, why didn't they say,
"Oh, she's, she's a talented singer.
Let's sing, incorporate
that into the show"?
That would've been- Well,
it just wasn't that era
... Kansas Carradine: 50/50.
Because if I had joined in the '70s,
they did have a band that toured
around, went to O- Equitana Germany,
and was, you know, singing, and they
recorded tracks and things like that.
But it was a different era.
So I just wasn't a part
of that particular era.
There wasn't really the resources
and the team you know- Okay
... focusing on that in particular.
And and it was so all-consuming, this,
you know, we were, we were working on
acrobatic stunt riding Roman riding, and
then spinning lassos, so lasso roping.
Mm.
That in and of itself is its own,
you know, three full-time jobs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I, I understand that as well.
If you want to master anything, you
kind of have to have tunnel vision
and let go of some other things.
True, but if I'd been the
person running that show-
... Rupert Isaacson: I did
fancy myself as a...
Right.
Just go, I, I...
And you'd been living there,
I'd have been like, "Let's have
Kansas open the show with a song."
I mean, that's just a no-brainer.
Right.
And
Kansas Carradine: I look back-
Yeah ... and I go, "I shoulda been
singing the Star Spangled Banner."
We were already dressing- I mean-
... dressing up in red, white, and blue.
Rupert Isaacson: No-brainer,
Kansas Carradine: right?
But I didn't.
Crowd goes wild.
But I didn't.
You know?
Yeah.
And, you know, and here's the thing, is
instead of creating a story about it that
was, oh, this was, you know, tragic and
this was my, my you know, my, my wound,
if you will, it was it created a certain
level of g- Density, intensity within me-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
um,
Kansas Carradine: that created a different
type of catalyst within my life, right?
So initially, that energy was
stored up inside and suppressed,
and so fast-forward to when I was
discovering, you know, HeartMath
and seeking to have, to understand
the inner world a little bit more.
The interesting thing is the person
that I met wanted to learn more about
my stories in the same way that you are.
She goes, "Wait, you were
raised on some horse ranch?
Wait, who were these people?
Wait, you did what?"
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kansas Carradine: You cho- you made this
decision when you were 11 years old?
Look, tell me more about that."
So she was interviewing me very
similar to the way you were, and she
is a dear, dear friend to this day
and a wonderful friend of the heart.
And so it was really going back
to that question, why were you
seeking out some s- sort of solace?
Why were you seeking arts- out some
sort of relief from- Mm ... really
the torment of the human experience?
It's because all of the suppressed
emotions that I had of abandonment-
Mm ... you know, of anger, of being
told, "Stop singing, it sounds bad."
I was told that through, for
the seven years whole time.
Not wrong.
Yeah, and I, I guess it was sarcastic,
but it was still seeded all the time.
And, you know, I can go, go back
and laugh at it right now, but we
weren't really-- There wasn't a,
a two pl- two-way conversation.
Yeah, 100%.
So you just kinda take
it and take it and stuff it.
Yeah.
And then by the time I was in my
early 20s, you know, why did I leave?
It was because I was, my spirit
was crying for a transition.
Got it.
And that, that transition was
actually you know, really dramatic
in the sense that I graduated on a
Thursday and moved out on a Sunday
and- Okay ... didn't wanna look back.
And, and it took some time.
I did look back.
Within a year I was back, you know,
performing over in, in Europe at
Cheval Passion, which is in the South
of France, and I actually ran into
Fred and Magalie there in the early
Lorenzo, who was only with four horses,
Lorenzo the Flying Frenchman, Yes
doing Roman riding, and he had lines
and whatnot, and his horses were not at
liberty as of yet, and that was in '97.
So, you know, I was still doing shows but
I wasn't living on the ranch and I wasn't
doing the day-to-day operations, which was
very much- So you still- ... geared to a
younger- ... still hooked up with them-
population
... Rupert Isaacson: thereafter,
the, the relationship endured.
You did go and do performances with them.
Correct.
Kansas Carradine: Oh, that's good.
Correct.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Kansas Carradine: And I was still
devastated, you know, at my trainer's
passing, at Tom's passing, because he
was the first person to believe in me,
to to really care and spend some time.
And there was genuinely-- He never,
ever said he loved me until about a week
before he had a heart attack and died.
Mm, mm.
And out of the blue, call--
We were having a conversation.
We talked infrequently, you know, maybe
once a month or a coup- every couple
months, and we'd had a conversation
on the phone and he just said, "I
want you to know, Kansas, I love you."
And it was like What?
Wow, okay.
And it was very tender, and
then within the week he passed
Rupert Isaacson: It is so
strange to me, isn't it?
I, I, you know, I grew up in a
school of tough love as well.
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it, I never had any
sense as I was growing up in that school
that that was in any way effective.
And I had no desire to pass
that on to my children.
Like, it, it, it's funny, you know,
I meet people who say, "Well, you
know, my daddy and my granddaddy were
like this," and then I said, "Well,
then, then why are you like that?
Because it's just shit," you know?
And it's like when you were growing
up you must have known it was shit
because tough love hurts and, and it's
just often a, it's just often a cover
smokescreen for meanness and bitterness.
And- Right ... kids, kids,
kids, kids recognize that.
You know, kids are not stupid.
So I, you know, when I was growing
up with that, it was not so much my
parents, it was more other people who
were in the, my sort of tribal system.
But with a lot of influence and power,
and then of course the school systems
I went through and all of that.
But I never for a moment thought,
"Yeah, that's a good idea."
You know, I remember thinking, "Well,
no, that's not a good idea, and you're
intelligent people, it surprises me that
you think it's a good idea, but hey,"
but I'm not going to do that myself.
You obviously the same thing, but
it, you know, I guess what's sparking
this is that it took him, you know,
1,000 years to say, "I love you,"
to someone that he loved, which is
bananas really, just sort of shows what
bananas, you know, culture we live in.
And it's cultural.
Kansas Carradine: That's
the thing to understand.
Indeed.
Indeed.
I don't shame the being.
You know, it's always- No, no,
it's true ... a transitioning.
And, and it's
Rupert Isaacson: the same
with the people that, that...
But it, but it just always surprises
me, like, you know, I don't know,
that there, there were many things
growing up around me like, I don't
know, apartheid and 'cause my family's,
you know, Southern African is...
I, I didn't think, well, just
because my forebears did it that
that's a good idea, I'm gonna
keep doing it, you know, anymore.
It's, it's, that's just what surprises
me, you know, that people are-
Yeah ... intelligent and pain is pain,
and yes, you can say it's culture,
but at the same time we, we do have
the option to step outside of culture.
Mm ... and hell, I mean, that's what
the whole American experience to a
large degree was, was people coming
over from Europe and breaking with what
they perceived as the negatives of their
culture back home, including poverty and
oppression and feudal systems and things,
and Yeah ... then, you know, setting
them up on the other side of the pond.
Well,
Kansas Carradine: and let's, let's-
Yeah ... let's also a- acknowledge
that there was many You know, very
devout very rigid and structured
individuals and sects that were coming-
That- ... to populate America ... is true.
And they wanted to be able to
have their, This is- ... you
know, kind of cultish- Yes.
They're little dystopias.
Yeah ... continuation without the
oppression of any other influences.
You've just made a really
Rupert Isaacson: good point
there, a really good point.
I think it's something that we should
just develop quickly because it is true
that founding of Anglo-America largely
was religious fanaticists, pur- Puritans
who had actually been in prison in the
UK under King James because they were
just considered, like, too, too extreme.
And indeed they were because they,
they ended up killing King James' son,
Charles I, in the English Civil War
later on, and b- c- putting in a Puritan
government which banned Christmas among
other things, and under Oliver Cromwell,
and then people put up with that for
about 30 years and went, "Fuck this,"
and got the king back, you know, the
king's son back from France and said,
you know, "Let's n- never do that again."
But those blokes who had been in the clink
jail in England under King James were
put on a ship called The Mayflower and
sent to New Haven, Connecticut, and told,
"Thrive or die," "but don't do it here."
And of course, so your, your point
about America having a history also
with fanatical disciplinarian sects-
Kansas Carradine: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: was a really
good point to make there because
it does run, I think, through
a lot of people's experience.
And when we're talking about the
equine-assisted world, we're dealing with
a lot of people who are products of that.
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Whether it's- Of
Kansas Carradine: that conditioning
... Rupert Isaacson: indeed many
of whom run ranches, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So thank you for making that
Kansas Carradine: point.
And this brings me back also to
my question with Steven Peters,
is why does it work, right?
Why does it create...
And it works to a point.
So I was the shut-down horse.
Right?
Because that sympathetic
arousal, it makes you alert.
It switches on, okay, I need to get
into that state of hypervigilance,
so your senses are keener.
You're gonna ... Your reflexes are faster.
You're not going to second-guess and
hesitate, and if you second-guess and
hesitate when you're on a horse who's
running full speed, you know, at liberty
in you know, a 200-foot length arena, and
you're about to dive off of it and hit
the ground and flip and land somewhere
or do a full bridge and, you know, s-
stand up against the fort of gra- force
of gravity, and there's, you know, 5,000
people, and then on the other side of
the arena there, there's announcers
and they're having bull riding going on
and the cowboys are doing all of that.
There's a lot to going on, and
knowing how to focus and zone in
is not unlike the training that
we see in combat, in military.
Sure.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: exactly a combat soldier.
And so- Good combat soldier ... trick
Kansas Carradine: riding, it took
me- And le- ... a long time to
realize, so my dad, we talked about
the Shaolin connection, right?
Trick riding is actually
a martial art form.
Indeed.
People used to ask me, "Did
you do any martial arts?"
I said, "No, I didn't
really do that thing.
My thing was horses."
But my thing with horses was
acrobatic stunt riding coming from
the Cossacks, and it was all developed
for warfare- Indeed ... and to have
these incredibly agile soldiers.
So when I, at 11 years old, I was like,
"Okay, Dad, I'm joining the cavalry."
That's basically what I was off to go do.
And there was a methodical aspect to it.
Yeah.
You know, there's, there's
repetitive qualities.
It was, if anyone's seen the film
The Karate Kid, wax on, wax off.
We did far more raking of poo and
leaves than we did of actual riding.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's true with any barn,
I suppose, because there's
more chores than actual riding.
But- Indeed ... it seemed like
there was weeks on end sometimes
when we were doing chores.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and, and
the, but the ritualization of
them for skill set training,
yes, as is- Yes ... martial arts.
The...
You're absolutely right.
You, you were being trained
to be an elite soldier.
So because there's cavalry who were not
so elite and cavalry that were very elite.
I'd, I'd say that you...
And, and you, you're absolutely
right about that steppe tradition,
the, the Eurasian Steppe.
The Cossacks actually got it from people
further east, and it's still practiced.
The Cossack culture is largely broken
down, but it's still practiced very
much in Turkmenistan and Kyrgyzstan
and places like this, and it's really
worth looking at the Nomad Games.
Have you ever checked those out?
The Nomad Games Oh, I've
Kansas Carradine: just seen
little clips of it, but there,
yeah, there's quite a lot
Rupert Isaacson:
absolutely bonkers, right?
So it's all of the, all of the
countries that make up the Eurasian
Steppe from Eastern Turkey right
across to, I guess, Mongolia and China,
and all the countries in between,
all the ones that end with istan.
And they not only do all of that
acrobatic trick riding that you're
talking about w- from the military
tradition, but their military
tradition, but also things like kokparu.
Have you ever looked at kokparu?
Rugby on horseback.
I don't.
Where they call it buzkashi in
in Afghanistan, where you've got
a carcass of a- Is it similar
Kansas Carradine: to horseball?
Rupert Isaacson: It's, well- Except
Kansas Carradine: with a carcass.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and with sort
of death being you know, acceptable.
Kansas Carradine: Oh, the ultimate.
Oh.
So it, it's,
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's like
those early forms of football like
Florentine football or the Shrovetide
football in Ashbourne in England.
Oh.
There's medieval forms of, like,
no holds barred, any injury is
allowed, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And so kokparu is a rugby
on horseback where they...
You've got to pick up this 70 pound
goat carcass and try to get it into a
large concrete ring, which can also,
your horse can, like, fall into.
And you do this at full gallop,
and you can, like, if some- the
person's on the ground, you can
just run your horse into them.
And of course, this of course
was the training of the steppe
horsemen that conquered the world.
Oh ... no surprise that they did.
But yeah, you, you were
going through a form of that.
So I could absolutely see how it formed
you into an absolute machine of perfection
and performance and bravery and technique,
and at the same time you'd have had
to suppress a whole bunch of sides
of yourself to take it to that level.
Right.
Because there was also not so
much of an element of choice.
But there must have also been a part
of you that adored it, that loved
it, or you wouldn't have been able
to pursue it to that degree, no?
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you might want to look at movement
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be
applied in schools, in homes.
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Kansas Carradine: Right.
I think- So ambiguous ... there's
a certain amount of versatility
that I always appreciate.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, I was actually
born in the Year of the Horse.
You know, a lot of people are talking
about how this year's the Fire
Horse, and that's very meaningful.
Are you a fire horse
too?
I'm actually an earth horse.
I'm a fire horse.
Not surprising.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
Oh, you're a horse as well.
Great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So we tend to be a little bit wild
and have these big bursts of energies
and go off in different directions
and, you know, it's very famous- I
think I know what you mean ... for
not wanting to stay within the fences.
Like the breaking or
jumping over the fences.
Like, what fence?
Fences are just- And so
I, I, I like versatility.
Yeah.
I like keeping things in dynamic.
Mm.
And so I was kind of like, all
right, I did that from 11 to 14,
15, I wanna do something else too.
And it was the, the, the mandate to
stay with just this one, art form.
I'll put it that way.
It was really- Mm ... I wanted
to explore other forms of art.
Mm.
Because the art of horsemanship
is absolutely- Mm ... in my
opinion, on the level and on par
with, you know, fine painting.
Mm-hmm.
It takes as long to develop fine art
skills of- Yeah ... of painting as
it does, or sculpting, as it does to
understand the art of horsemanship.
Absolutely.
You know,
you know that very well with y- bringing
a horse through through the levels.
It takes- Yes.
Well- ... a lot of
Rupert Isaacson: time ... and as, as
Nuno, the great Nuno Oliveira said,
I've got him sitting right here.
Here he is.
There's Nuno.
Okay.
Kansas Carradine: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: He, he said where
it differs is that when you write a
book or y- make a picture, it endures.
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: When you create
a horse, with the passing of that
horse, the canvas is wiped clean-
Kansas Carradine: Yeah
and
Rupert Isaacson: you must begin again.
Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And there's, I suppose
you could say the same about, say,
a human dancer or so or something.
Mm.
But even that dan- you know,
so it, there's some, there's
a poignancy to it, I think.
Yeah.
The, the-
Yeah
... equestrian art.
You of course are both a dancer and
an equestrian artist because it's
not just a martial art, it's also,
I would argue, that really good
trick riding is a form of dance.
And dance with the horse, not
just the human by themselves with
their own body and nervous system.
Mm-hmm.
So, okay.
So you, you, you're coming out of this,
you're, you're exploring, you want to
go to Broadway, you sing beautifully,
you want to do these other things.
You're from an acting family
anyway, so why wouldn't you?
And then you discover HeartMath.
So you, you, you, you come out of
this highly disciplined, highly
self-actualized upbringing, but with its
other issues, and you're looking to go
into other forms of the arts, also with
horses, and then you meet somebody who
tells you about this HeartMath thing.
So how did that happen,
and why did you think...
'Cause you must have looked at other
forms of you know, mental health,
personal development-y things.
Yeah.
Why did you think, yeah, that one?
That one.
Yeah, I'm gonna go with that one.
Kansas Carradine: Well, well, I think
there's still a, a stigma around
mental health for me at that time.
Mm.
And so I didn't know ... We didn't even
call it, like, "I'm looking to take
care of my mental health," at that time.
Sure.
I just knew that I was feeling
suffering of the human experience,
and I wanted to ease that suffering.
Yeah.
And I was not looking through
traditional means because I'm
untraditional, and so I wasn't seeking
out a a psychotherapist- Mm-hmm
or a psychiatrist.
I was seeking out you know, spending
times with First Nations people.
And so I spent time with Long
Dance and was With Long Dance?
... with women and grandmothers.
What's Long Dance?
Some, some ... It was a ceremony of
women that took place in the Central
Coast, or I guess it's southern coastal
region, so it was more Chumash land.
Yeah.
But there was many people who
came from different regions,
Rupert Isaacson: The Chumash Indians,
for those who don't know, by the
way- ... those more, more prominent
... are the ones who lived at the, the
coast, the coastal strip of- Southern,
Kansas Carradine: southern coast,
yeah ... Southern California,
yeah ... between Los Angeles and
really extending up past Santa Barbara.
It was a quite a long a large region.
Rupert Isaacson: So you,
you, you sort this out.
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
And I was just very connected to you
know, indigenous wisdom we could say.
Mm.
And so Native American spirituality.
And then I was also, you
know, starting to meditate.
I ... It was interesting as I was
moving to Los Angeles to try to
become an actor because it was
always my dad's dream that we would
Yeah, I would continue
this h- legacy, right?
Right.
So I was taking acting classes in
Hollywood and somebody said, "Hey, I
could get you a job at this really posh
sushi restaurant on Sunset Boulevard.
You know, you make great money,
you make great connections."
And I said, "Okay."
And I showed up, and it was right after
September 11th in the United States,
and there was a line about a quarter
of a mile long with professionals with
attaché cases and people in suits.
And these people had families.
They had children to feed.
They had mortgages.
And I looked, took one look at
that line and I was like, "Okay,
I don't need this job that bad."
And so I went back to my little studio
apartment that I had at the time near
the beach, and I started ... I found an
ad in the spiritual magazine, you know,
where you get crystals and learn about
different healers and things like that,
and someone said they needed an assistant.
So I applied and I went to work with a
woman who channeled you know, off-planet
energies, and she worked with crystal
healing, and she did something called
theta healing which was all about
DNA strand activation, and that was,
that was where I was gonna work.
And so I was already in that vein.
And just seeing that I was ... that
we're in this human experience
and there is suffering a part of
it, so how to ease that suffering.
Rupert Isaacson: But okay, the woo-woo
that like the, the oat woo-woo that you
just described there sort of, you know,
California channeling people and so on,
so much of that is BS and there i- there
is also parts of it that are anything
but BS, and all points in between.
Mm-hmm.
Easy to knock it.
A lot of it deserves knocking,
and yet there is a skein of truth
running through the whole thing.
Mm.
And there is the occasional person
out there who actually is a channeler
and there are lots of people who
aren't and say that they are-
Mm-hmm ... and take people's money.
Similarly with animal communication,
you know, there's some people
out there- Absolutely ... who
are absolutely the real deal.
I've met them, you've met them.
And other people out there who are not.
Okay.
Yeah.
What made you think that
this- And I have, I think
Kansas Carradine: as, as horse
people, I have a sniffer, right?
Yeah.
And perhaps just growing up in
an environment where you did have
to be on alert all the time, we
start to feel into the unseen,
to sense- True ... authenticity.
And so I have a pretty, Even though I'm
highly gullible, and don't use that to
your advantage at all, I'm very, very
gullible because I want to listen to
people and believe them, but I also listen
to my heart and I have this sense- Yeah
of whether people are being authentic.
I think you're only gullible in certain
Rupert Isaacson: moments probably.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it probably doesn't last very long.
Yeah.
But, but d- are you saying then that
you had a, a decent BS meter built in?
Correct.
Yeah.
Right.
Kansas Carradine: Correct.
Yeah.
Okay.
But so this woman- And I just
followed this intu- intuition.
You know, a lot of times we don't really-
Indeed ... think about it and, and on
a cogniti- it's just, you know, it's
like me moving in with a horse ranch.
I just was like, "Oh, this
is part of my destiny."
Like, yes, that's chapter
17 of the Kansas experience.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
But when someone says,
you know, "I need help.
I'm a channeler."
A part of one might say, as a
young broke, you know, person,
"Okay, that's a job, I'll take it.
That's great.
It sound- sounds kind of interesting."
Well, so here you go.
Shh.
But did you actually think she was d- do
you think she was actually the real deal?
Just out of interest.
Kansas Carradine: Well, the,
the ad was very straightforward.
It was just, you know, I think it
was listed as something like Healer
Intuitive- Right ... is looking for an
assistant, you know, admin assistant for
this much and this many hours a week.
So it was very, very straightforward.
Sure.
And
no matter, even if you're you know, in
those other realms, you also, at the end
of the day, you know, you need to pay your
rent, you need to get those things- Indeed
taken care of.
And so what I really appreciated about her
is that she was, she had actually been a,
a journalist for The Wall Street Journal.
Okay.
Interesting.
So, and she in the '70s, and so '70s
and I believe early '80s, and then she
moved out of that and started channeling,
and then took that as a full-time,
full-time job and full-time position.
Why did she start channeling
and was she the real deal?
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Yes She, she was grounded.
And she had a
Kansas Carradine: balance of being
grounded in actual 3D we could say.
Mm.
A very strong intellect, and she had also
studied extensively and had a very, we
could say, coherent and clear connection
to source, whatever you wanna call it.
And in that sense, it was always about
helping people awaken to the truth that
we are all connected, that we are all
embodiments of love, and that there
actually is much more beneath the surface
than this 1% of our DNA that is totally
different that we focus on all the
time with these- 100%, but not everyone
Rupert Isaacson: who
believes that channels
different channels.
Correct.
Yeah.
So, who was she channeling, and why,
why did she go the channeling route?
I just...
Kansas Carradine: You know, she
didn't s- focus on a particular,
on a particular entity.
Okay.
You know, I think at that time there
was, And I think everybody channels.
You channel at some points when you're
like, "Oh, where did that come from?"
Right?
We get connected to source-
Indeed, but I don't- ... and it
comes through ... I don't put
Rupert Isaacson: out a business card
saying, "Rupert Isaacson, channeler."
Certainly.
And as you know, at that time in,
in H- in Hollywood, and even now
actually there are people who, like,
"I channel," as you say, "this entity."
There's a, there's, there's a bloke
who's big at the moment, Bashar,
you know, but there've been others.
Ramtha was w- a big one.
It's a...
And I, I keep an open mind on this.
I, Mm-hmm ... and at the
same time, I have a chuckle.
It's both.
Mm-hmm.
I think ambiguity- Absolutely ... and
particularly those of us who are working
in the equine-assisted field, the whole
point is you've got to sit with ambiguity.
Things can be- Mm
both, like, BS and true at the same
time, and if one becomes comfortable
with that, then one can operate
on this multidimensional level.
And if one can't- Mm ... then
one is always a bit limited.
But it doesn't mean that s- healthy
skepticism is just a good thing.
Mm.
Cynicism is not a good thing.
Cynicism is the coward's
way out because it says- Mm
"Anything I don't understand,
I will dismiss," because it,
Kansas Carradine: It sh- 'Cause
it's judgment, it's closed-minded,
and it doesn't allow for anything
else- Exactly ... to penetrate.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Right.
And I just wanna stay where I am,
and I wanna keep you where you are.
But healthy skepticism is like,
you know- Mm-hmm ... I'm allowed to
make a bit of a joke about it, and
at the same time hold space that
it might be true at the same time.
Mm.
Because, you know, whe- whenever I've
been around really good shamans in the
indigenous world, and I'm sure you've had
this experience too- Mm ... they don't
take themselves seriously, like, at all.
They are...
The, the, the, the, the healer
that I was the closest to, Besa,
I mean, total, total joker all the time.
Mm-hmm.
About himself- Mm ... not just about, you
know, other people, and didn't remotely
take himself seriously, but could pull
cancer out of people's bodies and all
sorts of other things that, you know...
He, but he came from a tradition where
that was- The, if not, I wouldn't
say it was normal, but it was that
sort of n- non-normalness was in
the culture that type of healing.
Mm-hmm ... so I'm just c- curious
about quickly your experience with this
lady, because you must have witnessed
her doing her thing, and that must
have been part of your education.
So just, and then informed the later
work that you did to some degree.
Just-
Kansas Carradine: Mm ... t-
Rupert Isaacson: talk to us just a little
for a few minutes about it, because it
these are the natural questions that
people listening will have, you know?
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
Mm-hmm
... Rupert Isaacson: you know, you're
an intelligent woman in Kansas.
Why wasn't it BS, blah, blah?
Just, just talk to us about that.
Yeah.
Kansas Carradine: Right.
Well, I, I, I've just following that
nonlinear aspect, and yet stepping in
to work with her was very simple of
like, okay, these are some files that
I need documented into my computer.
So I was just doing- I'm not talking
about that side of things ... basic admin
work.
I, no, I understand, but I'm telling
you, this is the relationship
that we had on a day-to-day.
Okay.
You know, here's some tasks.
I'm gonna be doing
sessions with my clients.
Here's some crystals.
When I finish working with these
crystals, I'm gonna energize them,
and you're gonna package them and take
them to the post to each individual.
And so I got to learn.
And then we, we went to the imports
where these crystals would come from,
you know, Brazil and China and the, all
the stands that you spoke about, all
of these rare, amazing gems that are
creating this kaleidoscope beneath us.
I got to see when we were opening
them out of these 55-gallon containers
and, you know, they're all just
these incredible treasures, and she
revered each one of these as beings.
And we would get to walk throughout
the aisles of these massive warehouse
in Southern California, and then
she would kind of be touching in and
communicating with them, and, and then
she would collect what we would take
back that would eventually be part of
the inventory to give to her her clients.
And so my role was very much
of the, the assistant in the,
all of the tangible sense.
Kind of like, you know, if Merlin had
someone who was a scribe or something.
That's really what I was doing.
Yeah, the sort of lab
Rupert Isaacson: assistant.
Kansas Carradine: And so
you learn ... Yeah, exactly.
And, But if you were the lab assistant to
Merlin- And then she did conduct these-
Rupert Isaacson: then you ought to see
him materialize a dragon or two, right?
So yeah.
Kansas Carradine: No.
So we didn't have so many of those kind
of shamanic experiences, and th- because
I was also not interested as much in
phenomena, I wou- I guess I would say.
Like, people are like, "All right.
Do something to prove yourself."
Like, that- Mm
that really was never
something that drew me.
And I've certainly been around a lot
of other shamans who have produced
lots of sort of phenomena some of whom
are now engaged in legal problems.
So it's not- Interesting ... to
say that somebody who's capable of
creating phenomena is a pure being.
100% Right?
And that's a really important distinction.
100%.
And so, I really did feel that she had
a very grounded and, and clean heart,
and the way that she spoke and how she
operated from felt very much in integrity.
She was acting in integrity.
But
Rupert Isaacson: did you see her
channeling, I guess- And then- ... is
the point I'm trying to make?
Did you ask?
Kansas Carradine: Did you see that?
I did.
So when she would have workshops-
Mm ... and I was helping checking
people in, and it was actually the
first time that I really ever meditated.
I was, like, 22 at the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Kansas Carradine: And then she would go
into, you know, a quiet state with eyes
closed, and she would share a message.
It wasn't from one particular being,
and it was really an off-planet
energy that was saying, "You have
all of the resources that you need.
You are surrounded in divine love.
You, as beings, are extremely
more powerful than you could
ever imagine and that you see.
And we're here to help and guide
some meditation processes to
help you connect to y- to heart,
to the feeling of oneness."
And so it was really the
first time that I was aware of
vibrational modalities, right?
I started to feel, because when
you suppress a lot and when you
haven't had nurturing love you
often have numbness as a coping
strategy and as a byproduct of that.
And so I was very numb.
I didn't have any feelings really at
all like not pain as well as, you know,
extreme feelings of, like, emotion.
Then they start to come back online
because that's the intelligence of, you
know, the healing or evolutionary process.
But I-- when someone would ask,
like, "Do you feel your heart?
Do you feel this warmth?"
And I couldn't turn inward.
It was an uncomfortable place.
And then later, it actually ended
up being this overwhelming emotion,
which is a way that unprocessed,
undigested experiences can sometimes
get stored up in our body, and so,
you know, emotion would come with it.
So what it was a beautiful gift
for everyone present, and there
were small groups, like maybe,
you know, 15 people, right?
This was not somebody who was going in
front of, like, 30 people at the time.
That was a modality that I think certain
people were interested in at the time,
channeling as a modality to connect
with source and to be of service.
And I, yes, I think she was
authen-authentically of service, and the
people who were there were learning how
to connect with the source in themselves,
and that was always the message.
Right.
And the source in ourselves, I would
say now, is we have the heart that
is our primary connection to our
souls, and knowing how to access that
feeling state is a way to start to
connect with our our larger self.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
As above, so below.
Yeah ... the, okay, so y- you're, you're
there in this world and this is the
point at which you discover HeartMath.
Right?
Kansas Carradine: Yeah,
yeah Around that time, yeah
... Rupert Isaacson: so that's an interesting
jump too, because HeartMath, one of
the things I love about it is it sits,
it sits squarely on that continental
divide between the woo and the non-woo,
the rational, the irrational, which
of course any good science does.
My own uncle was an eminent
pathologist at at University College
Hospital in London, and he...
When we showed the Horse Boy movie
to the family I thought he was
gonna take a big old poo all over
me, because he's that sort of dude.
And at the end of the showing, I
went up to him with an imaginary
umbrella and I said, "Surf's up.
Take a shit."
"Do your worst."
Right?
"Go on."
Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And he went,
"Actually, Rupert this time
I'm not gonna take a shit."
And I said, "That's
unlike you Uncle Peter.
You know, this is a golden opportunity.
How could you pass it up?"
And he said, "Well, a couple of things.
One is," remember this is almost 20
years ago you're, you've produced
a piece of work saying that autism
actually might not, not be the end
of the world, and actually might
have some real gifts attached.
That's quite interesting."
And he said, "The other thing is
you've put your finger on, you've
drawn attention to a really interesting
aspect of the placebo effect."
And I said, "What do you mean?"
And he said, "Well, Rupert,
you probably don't know this,
but most people misunderstand
what the placebo effect means."
I said, "Well, what does it mean?"
He said, "Well, most people
dismiss something and say, 'Oh,
that's just the placebo effect.'"
He said, "What they don't know is
that the entire system of modern
medicine, allopathic medicine,
rests upon the placebo effect,
and we don't know how it works.
It's completely irrational to us at
this stage of our scientific discovery."
I said, "Go on, please explain."
He said, "Well, Rupert, easy.
When you go to see a doctor,
you get a prescription.
If you get a prescription, you get a drug.
That drug has gone through a drug trial
before it's allowed on the market.
In that drug trial, there are
different populations that it is
tested on, and there are also placebos
that other control groups are given
to, to see if the drug makes more
people better than the placebo."
And he said, "In the early stages of
any trial, the placebo always makes
more people better, and they don't just
think they get better 'cause they're
stupid and then die later of the thing.
They- actually get better.
We don't know why.
However, it's not allowed for
that drug to go on the market.
It often has to go through several
iterations until it makes more
people better than the placebo.
So he said the placebo effect is something
very real and very good, and it's possible
that these shamans that you're looking
at, Rupert, have some ancient technology
of some sort of activation of that that
we don't yet understand scientifically,
but hopefully at some point we will.
That was the absolute bridge
between a hard scientist, and
he's a hard scientist, and a
but also good scientists saying, "We
don't understand everything yet."
Mm.
So one thing ... That's
what I love about HeartMath.
So y- and so you bridged,
you also made that bridge.
You were going from something that
was intuitive, irrational, and then
you're then making a leap over to
something that allows for that,
but also allows for the rational.
So tell us about your early
experiences with HeartMath.
Kansas Carradine: Oh, well, as I
mentioned it was really for me, and it
was just very casual and private that
I was learning about these techniques.
And one of the first ways that
you share the teachings about
it is just to understand kind
of the car that we're driving.
And now so many people are
learning about the nervous system.
I mean, you can even talk to little
kids in school, and they have,
you know, sensory rooms, and they
have places where they're learning
to breathe, and it's just, it's
amazing where, how far we've come.
You know, but this was like 25 years ago.
It was not, not as much
you know, so common.
But I was in Los Angeles, so it's a little
bit more common in terms of the woo-woo
that is very, ... And I always like to say
m- it's more esoteric or the metaphysical
is really what we call it, or new age.
Yeah, but woo-woo- Right?
... is just more
Rupert Isaacson: fun to say.
Yeah.
Kansas Carradine: Right.
Woo-woo.
But the first step to it was really just
understanding how the nervous system
works- Mm ... and understanding why we are
having some emotional reactions, why other
people are behaving in the way they are.
Because I'm just gonna blame you
because you're just a hard ass
and you've, you're this and that.
Well, no, actually, there's a very
specific conditioning that has
created that unique outcome or that
unique terrain in the individual.
So first learning how our systems
work, how our amygdala in our brain,
the limbic system, can kind of hijack
our higher-minded cortical thinking.
We had talked about the reptilian
brain, but not really to the degree.
It helped me have more compassion for
the people around me, such as, you
know, the very brilliant and loving
but hard tough love coach that I had
and anyone else, and myself Right?
So the first step was just
the understanding, and with
understanding and knowledge, we
can have some sort of acceptance.
We can have some, you
know, mutual harmony.
We begin to soften really, and
then be able to take the next
step of, you know, kind of life.
We let something in because we're
not bracing up against everything.
Or like you had mentioned, just
closing ourself du- off to new
perspectives by fixed judgments, right?
So I received the information
about the HeartMath system taught
in a very simplistic way, and it's
als- almost like kindergarten.
And I find that, you know, some
people might not be attracted
to, to pedantic methodology
because it just seems too simple.
Like really, like come on, like
that's just, it's just too fluffy.
But the truth of the matter is I started
being interested in their evidence
because they had spent so many years
really grounding the, the, the, the
science and the data to show like,
"Look, this actually has an effect.
It reduces blood pressure.
Look, this actually helps with anxiety.
Look, it actually will help sleep."
And this is how it's working.
We're measuring HRV patterns, and so HRV
is heart rate variability that a lot of
people have been paying attention to now.
But they could-- developed a medical
grade advice device that not only
measures your H- HRV, but then takes it
even a step further to measure really
your your power spectrum, which is
really like the force of your heart.
So I might be able to get coherent,
but the force of my heart will
determine on the clarity of my focus.
A good example is, you know, my
coach who introduced me when her
father passed away, she could get
coherent, she could move into a state
of optimization and that flow state.
But the strength and the power
and the force of her heart as
she was going through drie-
grief was greatly diminished.
Does that make sense?
It does.
It does.
And that's measurable.
Rupert Isaacson: And I, I wanted
you, I wanted you to, to clarify what
you meant by the force of the heart.
So just keep going.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
So that power spectrum, what they
noticed is that when we're really you
know, in alignment and having that,
that the power, the strength, I,
I, I akin it to a magnifying glass.
When you're seeing the sun focus through
a magnifying glass, if it has a very
wide field, it's gonna create warmth.
As soon as you get it to be able to
focus, it has enough power that like a
laser, it can start and ignite a fire.
And so that's what can happen when
we really are-- This is what when
yogis are focusing on drishti.
Drishti means one pointed focus awareness.
And it's a very it's a capacity
that we have with our intellect
as humans to concentrate Okay?
So when you concentrate your heart energy
and you can practice that skill, you
have a more efficient output that can be
measured in its force, its heart force.
And so when you're connected to
your care and you're like, "Okay,
I really love this person so much.
I really want their wellness," and you're
sending a coherent form of love, of
support, of compassion, of encouragement,
that has a measurable effect, right?
And now they're starting to measure
its effect not just on the planet,
but on trees, you know, and hooking
up sensors on trees so that when
we're sending our heart, our loving
energy, our care, that it actually is
received through the sentience of the
tree, and there's other responses.
So that's, that's really where
the researchers now from HeartMath
are like, "Okay, we've made
this body of work of humans.
That's great.
It's doing this.
Now we really wanna focus on the
impact that the human heart power and
the human coherence, heart coherence
has on the plant nation," because
that's a little bit easier to measure
than, say, rocks at this point.
There's probably ways to measure
it, but we don't yet have it.
I'm sure the shamans that you have worked
with and that I've been around who don't
take this themselves seriously, they talk
very specifically about the rock people
as well as you know, the plant nation.
So I just find it fascinating
because- Well, it's
Rupert Isaacson: interesting that
you bring up plants because, of
course, you know, plants and animals,
we are i- in the hunter-gatherer
context, we're supposed to...
We usually have a, a relationship.
It's been measured by various
anthropologists of about, with about three
when I say a relationship, I mean a close
relationship with about s- 300 species at
any one time across plants and animals.
There are lots more out there, but the th-
those 300 are usually the ones that are
most closely bound up with our survival
and thriving, so nutrition and medicinal.
And because don't forget that eating
the right animals is also medicinal.
And I, I could go into that.
Be- so for example, in, in in the Kalahari
porcupine is a very sought after medicinal
food because everything the porcupine
eats happens to be a medicine for humans.
So everything that's inside the porcupine
is a constant condensation and synthesis
of all of those drugs, if you like that
natural pharma- pharmaceutical cocktail.
So therefore, if you eat that meat-
Right ... it is very good for you
as opposed to something that eats
things that are not good for you.
So that's easy to understand.
What's so easy to lose is the reciprocity.
So- All systems within nature,
right, are in reciprocity
with each other, in symbiosis.
S- even what appears to be
parasitic, there's always some
sort of underlying symbiosis.
And the obv- the, the biggest example
of that, I think that's come up in
recent times is the whole ... Oh, God.
The, the, the mushrooms,
the, the, the myelin.
Not myelin- Oh,
okay ... that's in the brain.
The my- myco- oh, God, Rupert.
The, the we- Fungi?
Kansas Carradine: Fantastic fungi?
The- The,
Rupert Isaacson: the, the, the, the-
Kansas Carradine: Mycelium?
Rupert Isaacson: Mycelium, thank you.
Is it not mycelium?
Oh, okay.
... the network that, that, that binds it
seems the whole planet, and the trees
pass- Right ... nutrients to each
other through the mycelium network,
and, but the mycelium network itself
gives things to the trees and gets
stuff itself, and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And we think we're apart from that.
You know, of course we're not.
Mm.
But yet, as you say, if you trace
back just a very recent history of
the last 200, 300 years, since this
particular branch, these particular
branches of ph- religious hardline-ness
have come in, one of the points of,
or those religious hardline-ness
was to sever those connections.
Well, the perception of those connections.
You can't actually sever them
because otherwise you'd die.
Right.
But any more than you could
stop breathing oxygen.
But nonetheless, you know, if, so if
you had a wise woman who understood,
you know, all of those herbs or
what, you'd put her to death.
You know, obvious thing.
If you encounter native shamans, well,
you, you Christianize them, and if they
won't Christianize, you, you put 'em
to death, and so on and so on, and then
you get your industrial system going.
So it seems like a revelation to
us when mycelium networks have then
come back under the eye of science,
or that the landscape and the trees
could observe us at the same time
that we're observing them, that they
could be sentient, that there could
be a central bank of consciousness.
It's only recently that people have even
begun in our culture, not in ancient
cultures, to allow for the fact that
consciousness is something that we tap
into but the human brain does not create.
Whereas up until quite recently, your
upbringing, my upbringing, we were told
the human brain creates consciousness.
And, you know, n- we know that
now that's not true at all.
So it's interesting that heart math
begins to measure these things.
You, I think, turned me onto this study,
which I just pulled up off Google.
I think it was you who turned me onto
this study, and I think this one really
crystallizes for people that
are having trouble understanding
what we're talking about here.
In 1997, going back a ways now,
the University of Kassel Which
is in Germany, in Hessen.
Germans, so they're not
known for their woo-woo.
Suggested, this study suggested that
individuals practicing specialized
heart-centered meditation, just as you
described, just as you showed us at
the beginning of this conversation,
can emit 100,000 photons of light
per second from their chest.
I'm gonna read that again.
A 1997 study from the University of
Kassel suggested that individuals
practicing specialized heart-centered
meditation can emit 100,000 photons
of light per second from their chest.
This is claimed to be sufficient-
significantly higher than the
20 photons per second observed
in average individuals.
Methodology, researchers used a
photomultiplier tube to measure light
in a dark chamber during heart rhythm
meditation, just as you had us go through,
where practitioners focus on the heart and
send, in inverted commas, love and light.
Findings, the study claimed that
focused emotion and intent can increase
biophoton emission, biophotons, love
it, from the body by a factor of 5,000.
Context, while human bodies do emit
low-intensity light, known as biophotons
or ultra-weak photon emissions, UPEs,
the, in this case, reported high-intensity
emissions are what was being measured.
Scientific reception the ... Of course,
some people accepted it, some people
didn't, but the fact is, 1997, 100,000
photons per second as opposed to a normal
20 just going through these kind of
So this is the kind of thing that
HeartMath went off and studied.
Okay, this was the University of
Kassel, but many of these things were
also used by, and to some degree,
funded by HeartMath Institute.
What was the history of HeartMath?
How did it come about?
Kansas Carradine: I, I mean, I
think it would be great at some
point to connect you with some
people actually at the institute-
We need them on the show, for sure
so that they can explain a
little bit more about it, yeah.
But just in brief ... they
trained certain practitioners.
So there was a, a group of
meditators and they were from
South Carolina, North Carolina.
And they had all centered around a,
A guide named Doc Childre and one of
the group, one of the meditators of
that group was a scientist, research
scientist, very, very interested.
And I believe it's around the time
that like TM was being very popular,
so TM being Transcendental Meditation.
Transcendental Meditation.
Yeah.
Meditation.
And different communities who were
just really interested in, you
know, yoga, Eastern thought, and
the mind, body, spirit connection,
you know, what is that about?
And so this particular researcher named
Rollin McCraty who's the chief scientist
at HeartMath, basically said exactly
what you just described in that paper.
We want to start to create more
evidence to understand what the
impact is of a being who is at peace,
of a being who's connected to their
heart, and why that's important.
And so they started to decide like,
okay, well, we need to actually,
you know, be able to create an
instrument to measure something.
What can we measure?
And so I don't know the, the whole
history of at it, but it started with
their main biofeedback technology,
which is the first of its kind.
So biofeedback in the sense like an
EKG monitor, monitor but this was
just measuring heart rate variability
because most people, like I did
it w- it's common you would think
that the heart is just 60 beats per
minute, but that's just an average.
The heart is constantly speeding
up and slowing down and adapting.
You don't have to think about it.
If you wanna run, your
heart's gonna increase.
If you're slowing down or you're
going to sleep at night, it's gonna
go down to a very, a slow rhythm.
So your heart's always adapting.
But what we don't realize is that with
the power of our breath, we can create a
much more even, organized tempo similar
to that conductor of the orchestra
that I mentioned at the beginning.
Or when a rider is teaching a horse
to be in piaffe and passage, you can
teach them to dance to the music.
When humans decide it's-- You know,
I'm, this is just coming into my
mind on how to articulate it 'cause I
couldn't articulate it for a long time.
It's the power of human You know,
human talent to create music,
to create order, the tribes that
create shamanic songs and rhythm.
It's like we live in this chaotic
universe, and it's beautiful and it's
wondrous, and then we have the power
to create organization within it,
with Mozart being able to download
all of these incredible symphonies.
But if they, if everyone was playing
separate lines and they were out
of sync, it would be a mess, right?
So the heart organizes things to be
the symphonic masterpiece, and then in
a way it's we're creating art through
our hearts, and that's when we get
this 100,000 photons- Putting the art
Rupert Isaacson: in heart.
Sorry ... you
Kansas Carradine: know?
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or the fart in heart at some point.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you...
There's Mr.
Methane who puts the- Yeah
art in fart, but yes, that's it.
Yeah.
Kansas Carradine: Yes, yes, yes.
Sorry.
Yeah.
But I've always said,
like, you know, we...
There's all kinds of things that we
just can't measure yet because we
don't have modern instrumentation.
Yes.
Yes.
Or they're relegated to labs and
universities and things like that.
Yeah.
They're not available for the commoner.
But I believe that we're just still
using kind of medieval technology,
but there's actually quantum
instrumentation- Yes ... in the labs
and the universities all over the place.
It just hasn't become as i- in the
household of, of each individual.
Well, you say that, though.
But eventually this shit is happening.
I, I
Rupert Isaacson: think bio-
biofeedback appli- you know
devices now are more and more.
I remember the first one- More ubiquitous
... I was ever, you know, first one most of
us ever saw was an EEG machine, right?
And they'd been using- Right ... those
forever to measure brainwaves for
epilepsy and so on, and so on, and so on.
That's a bi- a biofeedback device.
But I remember that, oh, it was 25 years
ago or so, someone showed me something
called a Scenar which came out of Russia-
Yeah
... which was used to heal injuries
for the Russian athletes.
Right.
And then after the wall came down,
slowly those devices appeared
on the market in the West.
And I remember th- she was German, another
German, and she- Mm-hmm ... showed this
to me, and I was like, "Yeah, yeah,"
you know, my usual yeah sort of way.
And then she said, "All right."
I got, I got ended up with a, a
brown recluse spider bite on the
side of my face that wouldn't heal.
And she said- Right ... "Bet you
a pint, Rupert, this will help."
I'm like, "Can't turn down a pint.
Worst thing that happens is no pint."
So- That's right ... or worst thing that
happens is I have to buy you a pint,
which means I'll probably drink a pint
at the same time, so then how can I lose?
So I used the device for two, three days.
Took it on h- took it away
with me on assignment.
I was off to Honduras to write a piece.
When I got back from Honduras five days
later, the bite had, the whole infection,
the whole lot just gone, and it had
been getting worse and worse and worse.
Mm.
So I was like, okay, clearly something
in it, and then I've been using them
ever since and then there's like the- Mm
Bemer blankets, B-E-M-E-R, that open up c-
blood capillaries that- Our mutual friend
Linda Tanton Jones turned me onto that.
So I think those biofeedback
devices are coming more and more.
Vets use them, doctors
use them, as you said.
Certainly.
But,
Kansas Carradine: Totally common.
It's awesome
... Rupert Isaacson:
neurofeedback as a- Mm-hmm
I remember when I was going through
some, ooh, challenges a few years ago
I ended up doing some neurofeedback
and rather than therapy therapy, and
my God, I could feel my brain change.
I could feel my thoughts change.
I could feel thought patterns-
Mm ... getting kind of flushed out-
Kansas Carradine: Mm
... Rupert Isaacson: as if one was washing
them down the toilet a little bit.
And of course, that's very similar to
what goes on in shamanic ceremonies.
Mm.
You now use ... And so I think we can,
we can accept that heart math is a thing.
They, they can measure whether it's
photons from the heart, whether it's-
Kansas Carradine: Mm-hmm
... Rupert Isaacson: focused
power, whether it's-
Kansas Carradine: Heart rate
variability ... heart rate
Rupert Isaacson: variability and so on.
Now let's look at the practical aspects.
So somebody is running a equine
assisted thing somewhere.
How are they gonna use heart math?
Well,
Kansas Carradine: I just wanna pause
because you brought such a great point,
and this actually brings into the question
that you were intuitively going to lead
into, is that everything is energy, right?
And, and that really can't be refuted-
Sure ... even though we think that
these things are solid, that there's
vibrational- Yeah, everything-
... matter, that, that- ... everything
is- ... making up matter ... vibrating.
Everything's vibrational.
Yeah.
And
so what we're looking at with heart
math terms is we're just paying
attention a little bit more to the
frequencies of emotion, and we are
made up of- The frequencies of the
Rupert Isaacson: vibrations.
Yes.
Kansas Carradine: Right.
Right.
And so we have, m- you know, most
water is, is a, is a conductor
within our body, so we're feeling
these frequencies all the time.
Mm.
And you were just speaking about you
know, the vibrational qualities that
shamans can tune into, and that,
that, that's something that you train.
But the population that is highly, highly
sensitive, they might not even be, you
know, on neurodivergent or whatnot,
but just when you're highly sensitive,
you're feeling vibrations all the time.
Mm.
Right?
And we're talking about the impact also
of, you know, EMFs in our field, like
all the Wi-Fi signals that we have going
around, all of the different chemicals
that we're putting into our food,
and that chemistry that it creates.
And we can't really measure
it or take into account.
It's almost like a homeopathic
'cause we're getting small,
small doses of environmental
toxicity and all of those things.
And you have widely imagine in,
in your world and your industry
seeing how these have impact, right?
So it all these, these subtle
things that we are starting to
really pay attention to, this is
why it's becoming more important.
The reason that it's so, beautiful
in a way to merit use the HeartMath
understanding and system as a
component when we're working
with both animals and non-verbal
individuals, it hones our non-verbal
communication to focus on the feeling
of 'Cause it's really the felt sense.
When we say consoling words to someone,
it's the feeling that we're after, right?
Mm-hmm.
So this kind of lets that fall away
and, and allows us to connect with, I
already said it, said it many times,
connect with our care, connect with our
percuss, connect with our love, and just
notice that safety needs to be present.
Well, guess what?
We can attune ourselves as an instrument
to feel into the resonance of safety, to
connect with the feeling of gratitude.
So a lot of people say,
"Oh, you're around horses.
That gives you some sort
of, you know, superpower.
You're gonna be enlightened."
I'm like, if all horse trainers you
know, just by association with horses
became enlightened, you know, we
would have a very different world,
a very different equine industry.
So it's not just being around them alone.
It's this other X factor that I mentioned
at the beginning of our talk, which is
when you are feeling that real sense
of compassionate latitude, when you're
feeling that sense of understanding
and care, when you are connected to
being loving and kind and being helpful
and wanting to be there for service.
In fact, one of your videos that really
impacted me, Rupert, is when you said
something about tuning your whole
life into now service and how that's
created its own magnetism, its momentum.
It's connected you to a different
purpose, and that's what I would
say HeartMath is measuring.
Yes, your care really counts, and the more
that you can focus your power spectrum
into a coherent, ordered rhythm, that has
an additional amplified in, in impact.
So it's similar to when we, you know,
you can have regular unleaded fuel
or you can have rocket, rocket fuel.
And so when you're doing a, a session
with someone and you're aware of the
sense of grounding and being able to
communicate that to the parent, to the
caregiver, and also able to communicate
that resonance of safety and connection to
the horse, you're setting an environment
that has that much more harmony in it.
It helps harmonize beings.
And there's a lot of research that Heart,
HeartMath has also done where you teach
the technique to say a couple individuals
and put them in a room, and everybody's
hooked up to sensors, with individuals who
know nothing about the technique, and all
of them will entrain to each other They
will all begin to sync up and organize and
become what is called this coherent state.
And even though some individuals don't
know anything about it, and that's
what happens when we come into an
organization, into a, into a herd.
You know, you can feel a barn or a
stable that is like, "Oh, I really
wanna be here," in resonance.
You can feel the resonance of family.
You can feel the resonance of dignity.
You can feel the resonance
of all are welcome here.
I certainly feel it at Square Peg around
Joelle and Becca and their organization.
Oh, yeah.
Right?
Those of you who
Rupert Isaacson: don't know the Square Peg
Foundation, check out our Live Free Ride
Free interview, or is it Equine Assisted
World interview with Joelle Dunlap.
Anywhere, look it up,
Joelle Dunlap, Square Peg.
Absolutely.
Genius lady.
Yeah, yeah.
Kansas Carradine: Right?
And similarly, it's a resonance that
you, a field that you walk into when
you see a stable that's filled with
judgment, that's filled with suppression-
Mm ... that's filled with all of those
type of anxiety and a lot of criticism.
That's a felt sense as well.
So the more that we can pay attention
to this, learn about it, see what
coherence can do, not only for the
individual, but also for our horses, okay?
Because when we are very purposeful about
our intention, purposeful about our, our,
the power of our heart, sending out those
photons, I believe it's doing many things
that we just haven't even measured yet.
But yes, it does create a more suitable
container to facilitate transformation.
Rupert Isaacson: It goes back to this
thing of, again, you might get someone
saying, "Whoa, that's just common sense."
The answer's yeah, it is.
But have you measured it?
When we measure it, then suddenly where,
where we began with this conversation,
then suddenly when someone says,
"Well, I want to be more coercive."
And as you said, why does coercion work?
Well, it works to a
degree, but it's limited.
There's always a limiting factor.
So if one wants to break through that
glass ceiling of the limiting factor and
go into real performance, real wellbeing,
real lasting rehabilitation, then we're
going to need a different approach.
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: If we can measure why
the it's just common sense thing works,
then we have a coherent argument for
saying that's where- The science, the,
the, the funding for studies needs to go.
That's where government
policy needs to go.
That's why we don't hit
kids in school anymore.
That's why if you now get seen
whipping your horse, you know, in
the Olympics, it's not gonna go
over well, whereas 40 years ago,
maybe no one would've cared so much.
You know- Mm ... things get better because
people measure the commonsensical things.
It's really important that people
measure the commonsensical things,
otherwise, the non-commonsensical things
like fanaticism become the norm, and
we're-- it's easy to forget that we're
moving out of that in our own culture.
When I was at school,
I was beaten regularly.
That's not that long ago.
Now, it doesn't happen anymore.
It largely doesn't happen because
people went and did studies about why
beating kids doesn't actually make
them learn better and then can lead
to all sorts of problems later in life
that might cost the government money.
Because if I'm drinking myself to
death because of, you know, trauma
that I had earlier, well then that's
going to have a public health cost,
and that's gonna have a this cost and
a that cost and a blah, blah, blah.
Mm-hmm.
And governments do look at these things.
Interestingly, we, we often think that
it's, it's all a status quo and never
gonna drain the Washington swamp or...
But actually, I would s- posit that that
policy becomes more and more progressive
because I've seen it in my lifetime, and
it's because of things like HeartMath.
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: I would also posit that
within the equine-assisted world, you
know, we've gone from the type of bossy
pony club grandmother who meant very, very
well that I grew up with in England, but
who scared the shit out of us as kids.
And then you put that kind of
person together with a, a highly
sensitive autistic person in a
therapeutic riding environment- Mm
and just the sheer body language, just
the set of the shoulders, just the tone
of voice that that person uses without
even knowing that they use them, shuts
down and freaks out the very person
that is, quote-unquote, "their patient."
Mm.
Just quickly, it was, I think in the 1870s
or 1880s, that bedside manner got studied
in the UK wh- and then they realized that,
yes if you had a good bedside manner,
your patients tended to recover, and if
you didn't, they tended to die despite
how brilliant you were as a doctor.
Empathy, compassion.
So, yes, we need these studies.
You were gonna say something.
Kansas Carradine: I was, because
you mentioned when you have a
caregiver who is coming in with
this tone of voice or posture.
Tone of voice and posture are things
that we can hear and see- Mm ... with
the known senses, and I would argue that
what we're talking about with HeartMath,
what's horses feel and what those who
are autistic feel is even beyond that.
Mm-hmm.
It's the energy that's sent forth
in the unseen that again, we are not
yet really in the habit of taking and
tracking into account and measuring.
So the thoughts of the other
individual, the energy in the auric
field that they carry around them-
Rupert Isaacson: Or the, the
photons or lap of coming out of
Kansas Carradine: the heart
is something that's being perceptible.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Exactly, and so when people talk about
a horse, you know, who's going by, who
shies at the same place all the time or is
looking and say, "There's nothing there.
What's wrong with you?"
What's to say that they're seeing
only things that are in 3D, right?
They're perceiving something that's
unseen, and I think that that's the beauty
of what I love, is I was drawn to those
things that are unseen, and HeartMath has
helped give a little bit of language and
vocabulary to describe some of that m-
that mystery and make it less mysterious.
And then this other that you
mentioned is really important is we
all have to breathe anyway, right?
So might as well breathe
through our hearts.
It's complementary.
I was very, very ashamed and embarrassed
to talk about the HeartMath woo-woo new
age California stuff that I was doing.
I didn't tell anybody about it
for nearly two decades until it
was slowly extracted out of me.
Yeah.
So this is something that you can
do very subtly wherever you go, and
that's what is beautiful about it.
Whether you're an Olympian or whether
you are working with racehorses or
whether you're working in hospital,
whether you're working with research
scientists as your relative, we all
can be aware of the power of our heart-
Indeed ... and the impact that it has.
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's, it's,
it's also true with all the
stuff that's non-equine assisted.
So I think this is one of the reasons
why psychotherapy often falls short.
When one is in a sort of sitting, you're
the therapist and I'm sitting here, and
you're not saying anything, and you're
just asking questions, and you're writing
in your notebook, this creates such
a disempathetic power dynamic that I
become afraid of you really fast, and I
become afraid of saying the wrong thing.
I probably want to please you.
That comes from fear.
How can this work, you know?
And then-
I, I ran into this with ABA,
discrete trial ABA with my kid in
the early years where we had these
very coercive behavioral therapists
who were not only upsetting him,
but if we questioned anything,
became really aggressive towards us.
I was like- Mm ... it's clear in
front of your eyes to this therapist
that this child is trying to escape
from the room that you're in.
If I was in a round pen with a young
horse and it was trying to climb out
over the bars, I'd change something
because I might get killed, you know?
Just purely practical, even if I
wasn't feeling any empathy, I would
certainly feel enough empathy to myself
to get the hell out of there and look
at some sort of change of approach.
Why aren't you?
Well, because you're physically bigger
than this kid, so you can coerce them.
So we're moving from that era of coercion,
even though that coercion was often
coupled with good intentions, which
has come out without ... I'm grateful
that you drew the distinction within
or, or you drew that historical line
within the USA of, yes, people wanted
to break with things that were less
good about Europe when they came here,
but at the same time, they brought
a lot of things with them that they
actually wanted to use oppressively
and couldn't quite get away with in- Mm
Europe as well.
There were both.
And that stream of ext- that
skein, rather, of extremism and
hardline coercion became, I think,
wired into the American psyche.
Kansas Carradine: With one of the
world's largest genocides, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And Europe did the same thing.
Go figure.
It came from there.
But nonetheless, if we can accept that
that's what we're moving away from, the
witch burnings, the Thirty Years' War,
the wiping out of the Native Americans,
the Holocaust, and we are saying that in
the last 85 years, which is really all it
is, we are trying to stop doing what we've
been doing for the last 10,000 years- Mm
um, well, then we haven't done a bad job.
And those of us who are involved in
this line of work, I think we're quite
fortunate because we've seen rapid change.
And people like you, as HeartMath
practitioners, I would argue are
in the front row of that rapidity
because you're involved in something
that has a foot both squarely in the
esoteric and squarely in the O-terric.
I don't know what's the opposite of
esoteric . In the terric, I don't know.
Earth.
We should- Right.
And while you were- Terr- yeah,
' Kansas Carradine: cause terric
has to do with the earth, right?
Yes.
Terra.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Exactly.
And of course, there's much
magic in, to do with the earth.
That's what geomancy is.
Certainly, certainly.
While you were talking, I was, I was
looking at a in PubMed, you know,
where they publish medical studies.
In 2025 Robert McCraty
from HeartMath Institute,
Kansas Carradine: Rollin.
Rollin
... Rupert Isaacson: Rollin.
Sorry, Rollin McCraty, you're absolutely
right, with Jorina Albers published in the
Global Advances in Integrative Medicine
and Health, which is a peer-reviewed
thing, From Dysregulation to Coherence:
Exploring the HeartMath Approach to
Emotional and Physiological Regulation.
So anyone who wants a kind of latest
type study should go check this one out.
M- Mounting evidence suggests that
the long-term effects of trauma and
adversity are rooted out, are rooted not
only in psychological distress, but in
persistent dysregulation of the body's
stress response and its associated
neuroendocrine systems or hormones.
Mm-hmm ... and then, okay, we,
we sort of go to the bottom.
Well, what were the outcomes of the study?
And, mm, mm, mm, mm, gotta scroll
down a fair old bit because these
studies are quite long conclusion.
The effects of chronic stress, trauma,
and adversity are reflected in the
dysregulation of neuroendocrine and
other physiological systems, contributing
to a spectrum of physical and mental
health issues across the lifespan.
So the idea of someone might be
going through your equine-assisted
practice for six months, a year, but
they, we're talking about a lifespan
here that we might be part of.
Heart rate variability has emerged as
a valuable stress biomarker, offering
insights into autonomic activity and
its association with various mental
and physical health conditions.
The therapeutic application of
heart rate variability coherence
biofeedback presents a promising
avenue for mitigating the clinical
consequences, the clinical consequences
of dysregulation, demonstrating of
efficacy in treating stress, anxiety,
depression, and even chronic diseases.
Regular practice inc- using heart rate
variability coherence biofeedback and
HeartMath self-regulation techniques
over time can cultivate the sense,
the state of coherence, establishing
a new inner baseline that promotes
physiological and emotional regulation
and a roadmap- To greater health.
A roadmap to greater health.
That's interesting.
Continued exploration of the mechanisms
that underlie the physiological
impact of coherence and its
long-term effects will deepen our
understanding of this intervention.
Ultimately, the integration of HeartMath
self-regulation techniques and heart
rate variability coherence biofeedback
into therapeutic practices, that's us,
represents a noteworthy advancement,
empowering individuals with a safe,
non-invasive, non-invasive, that's
interesting too, so no putting stuff
into people, no mouth swabs and
that an effective tool to enhance
emotional and physiological well-being.
These, I guess, were the heart
rate variability monitors that
you were talking about earlier.
Yeah.
All right, so how do we begin?
I'm s- I'm sitting here
in Derbyshire, England.
I'm sitting here in, you know, you
know, central Slovakia, and I'm
running a equine-assisted practice,
and I'm listening to Rupert bang
on and wishing that he'd stop
talking and let Kansas talk more.
So their question is going
to be, how do I start?
Kansas Carradine: Right.
So I teach classes online, and I do it
from the equestrian's point of view.
So even though I'm HeartMath certified
trainer and I'm also at the same
time training these HeartMath tools
to individuals who are in rehab and
treatment programs to veterans who are not
equestrians, I also have my entire career
that is built on working with horses.
And we haven't got to this point yet,
but in 2008, I started working with
Ariana Strozzi Mazuki, and that ended
up being my first deliberate foot on the
path of the horse as healer industry.
And so I became an equine guided educator.
She mostly focused on working with a
trauma-informed approach and also in
leadership development and skills.
That was more the demographic served.
And and then I've always been very
passionate about working with women,
specifically with, with women's health
and navigating through all of the
different roles that women carry.
And so I teach those courses online
and there's also more information about
HeartMath and all of its research.
You were reading like two articles
today but there's actually several
hundred different peer-reviewed- Yeah
... research articles at heartmath.org.
And sometimes it's focusing on
different you know, diseases or
dysautonomia and whatnot, and its
impact on those- What's dysautonomia?
When the autonomic nervous
system can't regulate.
Okay.
It has a-- And actually, I sh-
I'm not going to be the real,
authority on dysautonomia.
I have colleagues who are HeartMath
trainers who are also more skilled
in that domain, and they've shared
how it's helped their dysautonomia.
But it, it has an impact on many different
It, it, it exhibits in many different ways
in terms of health, right, and wellness.
And so, the research that you're able to
explore is interesting for the head, but
the experiential education that we feel,
that we practice, that we go through, just
like you can read books about riding, but
you actually have to get in the saddle.
You can watch movies that are lovely about
horses, but it's not until you actually
own one and you're out there, you know,
shoveling poo every day and your body's
getting used to being around livestock,
that you really begin to integrate
and embody those type of teachings.
And so what I do is through one-on-one
coaching and through my online
courses, I invite people to start
to learn how to live from the heart.
What does that actually mean?
What does it feel like?
If you want to buy a device we
definitely can work with those Inner
Balance HeartMath biofeedback devices.
But the beauty is you don't
have to spend so much time.
Horses, if you're around nature, are
one form of biofeedback, and the natural
world sometimes, again, you know...
This is a really important point.
So when I started doing equine therapy,
I was always thinking, gosh, it's quite
tragic that people who don't have access
to horses can't get this, and that
people who've had a taste of it might
not be able to create that regularly
due to circumstances and resources
and all of that not being available.
And so this, to me, was a
take-home tool to continue to have
a level of that felt resonance.
So even for your listeners in the
moment or listening wherever they
are, right now in this moment,
come back into that heart focus.
Bring your attention into the area
around the heart, the chest area, and
as you're breathing, breathe in through
the heart and out through the heart,
just imagining that the flow is coming
in and out of that intrinsic cardiac
nervous system, the tiny heart brain.
And I want you to connect with the
gratitude that you have for Rupert and
his information and all of the wonderful
presenters and teachers that he has on
not just his podcast, but at his farm
and perhaps through all of the different
books that he's been able to sprinkle
like seeds throughout the planet.
Or if you've had any mentors in your
life who have touched you, teachers
even in the form of those non-verbal,
either in two-legged or four-legged form.
Wisdom comes through many different
avenues, and just begin to breathe
gratitude for all of the wisdom that
you've learned through life experience.
And breathe that feeling of
gratitude in through the heart
and out through the heart.
And as an act of service, just imagine
that you're sharing that with anyone
here now who doesn't have yet all of
those capacities, maybe doesn't have
the community where they feel connected.
Just imagine that you're radiating
out from the warmth of your heart
those 100,000 protons, that your
power spectrum has meaningful impact.
Just like the rays of the sun
can lift the density of clouds,
your heart power has an impact.
And the visceral experience
that you have right now, give
gratitude to your own heart for
bringing you here in this moment.
And for each and every interaction
that we have, it's really a gift.
It's teaching us through lived experience.
So we can taste gratitude.
We can also taste compassion.
We can taste the subtle nuanced difference
of forgiveness or patience or ease,
and explore how each of those feel
and how they really color our days.
And so Rupert, you paint so many
beautiful masterpieces through your
words, and the invitation is that we
can also create masterpieces through the
resonance of our, our heart and the field
that we carry with us wherever we go.
And it really does cross cultural
lines, it crosses borders,
it even crosses timelines.
And I love that this system, for
those who are feeling dysregulated,
it can create a sense of regulation.
For those who are feeling like they're
hopeless to make a change, I would say no.
The-- as long as you have a heart,
no matter what your physical state
is, no matter what your situational
state is, you can have impact.
And we all do.
So thank you so much,
Rupert, for having me on.
Thank you to all the listeners here,
because I know that they are, without
a doubt lighting a small fire in their
communities, in their homes, just through
acts of being attentive, present, and
truly caring, connected to your care.
That makes a big difference.
So what's HeartMath doing?
They're measuring your care
Rupert Isaacson: That was very beautiful.
And obviously I'm very honored
by the kind words, too.
Thank you.
Those are caring, and those heal
aspects of myself that need healing.
So thank you, I'm grateful for
Kansas Carradine: that.
Mm.
And so I'm curious to share a little bit
your, your state, because we spend so
much time in language and we get busy.
But it f- from observation, it looks
as though as this has created a
pause that's just a little bit more
receptive and a softer way of listening.
Rupert Isaacson: From me?
Kansas Carradine: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
You know, there's, there, one of the
things about podcasting is that there's a,
there's an energy to it where you're
alert highly alert because you, you
know that your job, if you're the
podcaster, is to help to bring out
the story and the value of that story.
So you must be in this state
of alertness, and at the same
time, you must listen deeply.
Striking the balance is moment to moment.
Mm.
And it's also necessary that the
balance tips and goes like this,
because that reflects real life.
So if one was in a state of absolute
deep listening all the time, there
would be no podcast 'cause there'd be no
conversation, because, you know, that's,
that would be a different dynamic.
That would be more like
a guided meditation.
At the same time, there's nothing
wrong with a guided meditation which
is to a large degree what you just
g- very generously gave to us there.
And at the same time, one
has to have a dynamic.
And that, I think, is absolutely
true of, let's say, one's doing a, an
equine-assisted session of some sort.
One is dancing between- Many
of these variables, including
one wants to be of service.
There might be some
goals, some stated goals.
You want to offer value to the person
that you are serving, to their family.
That's value of experience, value for
money, value of actual measured wellbeing
and, you know, solutions to dilemmas.
There can be a certain
pressure on you for this.
You might be under some
time pressures, too.
You're managing the horse.
Mm.
You've gotta keep people alive, which no
matter how well-trained your horse is,
there's always a certain variable when
one's dealing with large livestock and
what can come into their nervous systems.
Mm.
And then there's the need to listen
because of that deeply to the
horse, deeply to the person you're
serving, deeply to yourself and
deeply to the environment around you.
And I think that's going on
when one's podcasting, too.
Mm-hmm.
But it means that, yes,
the energy can be more here
and perhaps needs to be
in order so that some things can
get communicated, not forgotten.
You know, one's writing notes and
let- let's make sure we return to this
thing and clarify that point and all
those things, the journalistic side.
That's also part of service, to
try and make sure that questions
get answered and, you know...
and at the same time, it
requires that deep listening.
I...
What you just did there made me think
perhaps I need to restructure the way
I go about some of these interviews.
Mm.
Between your song and
what you just did for us
allows more of a felt experience-
Mm ... for the people who
interact with this podcast- Mm
which means that they could take
more tangibly away- Mm ... than if
we just limited it to discussion.
So thank you.
You've given me pause
for thought because...
And you...
And, and a couple of ideas
Kansas Carradine: So this is
an interesting byproduct that's
well-documented 'cause eHeartMath has
also researched a lot extensively,
in fact, about intuition.
And when we are connected to coherence, we
get connected to our creative aspects and
our intuition, to our intuitive guidance,
and so we get different downloads.
That's the channeling
aspect in a way, right?
When I said we all channel.
And so these ideas come from a
nonlinear place when we're connected
to a deeper sense of heart resonance,
such as connecting to what we care
about or really feeling that, you
know, figure eight of consciousness,
that feedback loop you have.
We're not only feeling the resonance
of you and I here, but we're feeling
the quantum resonance of all the
beings who will ever listen to this
at any given time in this moment
as it kind of folds on itself.
And so-- And the song that I
spoke about, that creates that
rhythm as well with the breath.
Mm-hmm.
When we have our, our, our breathing
pattern is more full, right?
And what I would also share is that this
particular technique, and I go through
how it can be incorporated into any given
program and practice with your horses
or within a therapeutic larger offering
for clients, is we have a form of prep.
If you have people
coming, you set the table.
If you have people coming to your
barn, you rake it up and, you
know, put away the poo sometimes
to make it look ready and present.
Uh-oh.
Rupert's eyes got wide.
But okay, there's a way of
preparation- Note to self.
When Candice comes- ... whatever
it is, even- ... rake
Rupert Isaacson: up the poo.
Yes, got it.
Now,
Kansas Carradine: okay.
Even, even to like set up the flip
chart or get the saddle out, right?
Of course.
We're gonna use our tack.
Yeah.
So it's prepped.
Absolutely.
So another form of prep is to lay the
resonant foundation of the energetic and
to-- so to set the tone, if you will.
And that's something that
we can do as tone setters.
It's absolutely something that the shamans
will do when they know that you're coming,
even though you haven't sent an email.
And then they're like- Yeah ... "Okay,
Rupert's gonna be on his way.
I'm going to set the tone for the
residents here with the guides,"
and bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, and
they're working with all this
energetics of earth, air, fire, and
water and bringing in the elements.
It's, it's a, it's an
absolute purposeful act.
And so us as monkeys, as mortals in
this human world, I'm not a shaman, but
I've learned this very simple technique
to be able to set the tone as a form
of prep, to set the field resonance.
So how do I want the horse to feel
when I'm having an interaction,
when I'm training together?
And I know very clearly I want
harmonious connection That's paramount.
I want them to feel respect.
I want them to feel my appreciation.
Mm.
And so
before I work with, with a, with
a, a group, either four-legged or
two-legged, I'm gonna get very clear
about what my motivation is, and then
do these micro meditations to connect
with that feeling and send that forth.
And I love the fact that we've got this
image of 100,000 protons when we talk
about, "Oh, I'm gonna send you light."
We can kind of say it in a casual way that
isn't as grounded in reality, and this is
a technique that grounds it in reality,
and it's complimentary- There might even
be some Germans running around measuring
Rupert Isaacson: it as it
comes out of your heart, yes.
to
Kansas Carradine: what
you're already doing.
Right.
Soon.
Yeah, exactly.
We'll have a little...
That's the scribes.
Where's Merlin's assistants?
Bring them along.
Yeah.
It's a, it's fun.
It's exciting.
And then we'll go out and play, you know?
What is the resonance of play?
That absolutely- Mm ... has a
felt sense and a texture to it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
We, we never call- Doing
more ... our sessions therapy.
We always call them play dates.
I met a child that wanted therapy never.
I met a child that
wanted to play every day.
Kansas Carradine: Always.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I make- meet horses
that wanna play every day.
Yeah ... it, yeah, playfulness
is, I think, something we should
return to in another conversation
because that's what- This is
Kansas Carradine: what I
loved about the horse ranch.
Yeah.
'Cause ultimately we were learning how
to play and do amazing things, but I've
got the risk management down, so to do
it safely, which is why I would love...
We wanna collaborate together-
Yeah
... because I know there's some of these
Cossack exercises that we can take
off the battlefield into- 100% ... the
playground and have a great time.
Rupert Isaacson: 100%.
100%.
I mean, it's the same thing, the
classical system that we use to train
our horses because it makes them
safe, balanced, and also able to give
oxytocin- Perfect ... to a rider.
Kansas Carradine: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Was originally developed
partly to work livestock and partly in
battle for hand-to-hand, you know, combat.
So we can decide how we wanna use
it, just the same as with your- Mm
with your Cossack riding.
We can use it to harm our fellow man,
or we can use it to heal our fellow man.
That's really up to us.
It's the same system.
Same with martial arts.
You can use them to, to heal or to harm.
But the te- knowing the
technology is useful.
So yes, we're gonna collaborate.
So listen, listeners, viewers,
there's gonna be stuff.
We're gonna do stuff.
We're gonna be doing stuff.
The, y- you'll, this is
being recorded in May 26.
By M- May, June 27, hopefully,
no, certainly me and Kansas
are gonna do our first gig.
It'll happen in the Sierra Nevadas
of California, 'cause that's where
she lives, so it's horses are there.
Then we will also do some stuff in Europe.
So come Along and attend.
And what we're also gonna
do, we've touched on so many
things in this conversation
that we couldn't fully develop.
So what I want to do is now a little
series of, say, maybe 20-minute
conversations that we'll do about
various aspects of horsemanship
and horse training, and how we
can bring these practices into it.
What meditations, what prayers, what
actual physical techniques, what-- how
do we create a mishmash that actually
works situation by, context by context?
So if you're up for that, those are
gonna be appearing on YouTube too.
And if you need more Kansas in
your life, and you'd be sort of
insane if you didn't then Kansas,
can you give us the touchpoints for
how people can get in contact with
you, take courses with you- Sure
that have nothing to do with
me, that are just purely Kansas?
Kansas Carradine: Sure.
Yeah, the primary place to reach
out is at circuscowgirl.com,
which is part of this kind of you
know, trick riding performance world.
And at some point it might shift
in something that is a little bit
more focused on the heart-based
horsemanship, which is really the
technique that I'm kind of developing
and teaching my heart coherence classes.
So circuscowgirl.com.
I never did social media but I was, you
know, kind of dragged onto it kicking and
screaming, so there is a Facebook page.
It's not really something that I'm
very deft at, so it doesn't have
that much in terms of how, what
social media people do, I guess.
But every once in a while I'll
throw something up there as well.
Rupert Isaacson: But people can
also contact you through that.
They can message you through that.
Kansas Carradine: Always.
Yeah.
Yeah, Facebook Messenger is not my
primary means of meth- because like
I said, I'm really not, I don't have
it on my phone for very specific
reasons, and I might go weeks at a
time without going onto Facebook.
Rupert Isaacson: You mean
you don't want things going
do-do-do-do at 3:00 in the morning?
I, I can't- Yeah ... really, Kansas.
Kansas Carradine: I have enough things
to-- This is a weapon of mass distraction-
... that already I have to get its
tentacles out of my brain regularly
and do some shamanic cord cutting.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: From time to time.
So
Kansas Carradine: yes, and just very
simply you know, you can reach out by
email, and I have a easy email address.
It's kansascarradine@gmail.
Rupert Isaacson:
kansascarradine@gmail.com.
Carradine could be spelled like 8,000
ways, so how do we spell Carradine?
Kansas Carradine: C-A-double R-A-D-I-N-E.
Right.
So instead of Carradine, which helps it
phonetically, which you had said at the
beginning of our call, it is Carradine.
Sorry.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm British- Yeah
and we invented the language,
and so we say it Carradine.
It's got a long I.
Ta hee.
Kansas Carradine: Right.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry.
Apologies.
All good.
Kansas Carradine, Yeah ... even though
it's spelled Carradine at Gmail.
Kansas like the state.
At Gmail.
Yeah.
Yep.
Such a great name.
Kansas Carradine: Yeah.
And I do- Right ... in-person clinics
as well as a lot of these one-on-one
phone sessions because we don't--
The beauty is we don't have to be in
physical proximity to be able to- Yeah
get that felt sense.
We all had it right here.
We're connected to that.
Rupert Isaacson: Something I would also
say listeners and viewers you can contact
her about HeartMath stuff obviously,
and mental health stuff, and all of this
good stuff, but horse training stuff too.
So here's a little full disclosure.
I gave a, a course in Tequin, which
is one of our equine-assisted methods
in Idaho a couple of years ago.
Kansas attended with her daughter Bodhi.
There were some variables which
made me very grateful for the
fact that I had a horse person
of such high caliber to help out.
Even though she was supposed
to be there as a client, she
actually was a co-facilitator.
She just ended up paying for it
and not getting paid, so we need
to reverse that dynamic somehow.
So the quality of the horsemanship learned
through these high-pressure situations
in the Riata Ranch and at Cavalia, which
c- you know, everyone knows about Cavalia
and the high standard it had are very real
Kansas Carradine: And some people,
some people may not, right?
So, there's- It's true ... bringing
it to a new generation, 'cause
our last show was in 2018.
Yeah, that's true.
We were trying to mount a show
in 2020 in China, but then the
pandemic put a, a squash on all that.
But it was a melange of
many different disciplines.
So- Mm ... we have old style circus,
you know, seven ger- generation bareback
riders doing Rosenbeck riding, and then
European classical dressage and or most-
mostly French classical dressage, but
very much in Nuno's lineage, as well as
American style trick riders, but then
riders from Kyrgyzstan, Kazakh riders.
We had Spanish and Australian.
And so from all over the world,
everybody came together, and we all
listened and observed and witnessed
and worked on each other's, you
know, interdisciplinary aspects.
So it was a great education to work
with, you know, liberty, lightness as
always being paramount honoring the horse
as, to the highest order that we can.
And, and you know, my dream within that
show, it was under a huge white tent.
It was the largest touring show at
the time, like I said, with about
either 70 to even 90 head of horses.
And I always felt like, this
is a shamanic experience.
It's getting people into their hearts.
It was emotionally evocative with
the music and seeing the horses.
So people said that, especially with the
first show with Fred Pignon and Fred, and
Magali Delgado, that everybody would come
and it was this cathart- catharsis, this
cathartic experience, because it really
was transformative about the h- the, the
power of the human and horse relationship
as being so sacred and special.
And that's because we're Eurocentric,
because in other places you could
do it with elephants- ... and
create amazing things.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well, you go with your,
you go with your ancestors.
I saw that show.
I saw that show with Frederic Pignon
and Magali Pignon, and I presume you.
I just didn't know you
were in it at the time.
And I was transported.
I've seen lots of amazing equestrian
spectaculars of one sort or another.
They're all phenomenal.
That one, I walked away changed.
I think it, it fundamentally changed...
It w- it was a formative experience
for me in my horse education.
Mm.
And if, if only to show
what, what's possible.
It, it made me realize that I
didn't need to have limits to, yeah,
how I perceived the whole thing.
And so I'd say it massively
informed what turned into Horse Boy.
Yeah, so you, you had a, you
had a hand in that, Kansas.
All right.
So circuscowgirl.com.
Send her an email.
And KansasCaradeen, sorry, @gmail.
That's okay.
And her Facebook page, just
look her up on Facebook.
Contact her about all these things.
Look out for the stuff
we're gonna do in 2027.
Those are the plugs.
All right, lads.
Is there anything more you would
like to add, Kansas, before
we- Just- All right ... big
Kansas Carradine: gratitude.
I think we kept adding
and adding, so- We did
we'll talk again.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Okay, till the next time.
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