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Should early-stage startups hire a Founder's Associate or Chief of Staff? In this episode, we tackle this increasingly popular roles in startups.
We break down the differences between these roles, share our experiences, and discuss when these hires make sense - and when they don't.
From managing special projects to building sustainable team structures, we give you practical insights for founders considering these strategic hires.
Creators and Guests
What is Revenue Brothers?
What happens when a VC and a CEO come together?
– They nerd out about all things revenue. And they don’t always agree.
Raul Porojan of Project A Ventures and Toni Hohlbein of Growblocks are the Super Revenue Brothers. In every episode they dissect and debate current issues in B2B SaaS, and offer solutions on how to solve them
No matter if you’re an early-stage startup or a scaling unicorn – you’ll always learn something new.
Introduction
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[00:00:00]
Raul: let's say I'm a founder and I just have a couple of things that I want to get [00:00:03] out of my head and get on the road and I'm like, okay, I'll [00:00:06] hire someone to do these things right now.
Raul: I don't know exactly what to do with them yet. I [00:00:09] don't have a three, five year plan for that person. I just [00:00:12] know that I need to get some things onto the road and I can't do them right now. [00:00:15] So I'll get a founder's associate. And a lot of the times, ~uh,~ the [00:00:18] way that that works in this case is I get an intern.
Raul: [00:00:21] Toni you're back in Europe. You're back from Thailand. How [00:00:24] was it?
Toni: back in Europe, ~um, ~was great. [00:00:27] My tan is already fading. If it, if it had been there [00:00:30] to begin with, even, I'm not sure. ~Um, ~no, but like, ~um, ~[00:00:33] back, back, back on European soul, but in both feet [00:00:36] straight into, uh, busy, busy, busy [00:00:39] time, ~uh, ~so really happy to find some time to chat with you about, ~uh, ~stuff here [00:00:42] today, role.
Toni: What are, what are we going to talk about?
Raul: Well, as I [00:00:45] know, you're actually founding something new again, you're in [00:00:48] stealth mode, putting that out there and a [00:00:51] full founder mode. And as a founder, there [00:00:54] is something that a lot of founders I'm currently working with [00:00:57] are actually doing. Which is, ~um, ~call it a [00:01:00] founder's associate, call it a chief of staff, whatever, [00:01:03] but it seems to be quite a hot topic right now to be hiring that [00:01:06] kind of a person, even a super [00:01:09] early stage, there's a seed, whatever.[00:01:12]
Raul: So I thought we would make it a con or cure, [00:01:15] a chief of staff, founders, associate.
Toni: ~Yeah, let's, let's start with that. Um, you know, maybe it's part of the Con O Cure, um, and then let's kind of see how we can all settle this. But, but ~
What is a Founder’s Associate?
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Toni: I think [00:01:18] for some people listening, it might be interesting to understand [00:01:21] what it is, what is a founder's [00:01:24] associate, what is a, ~uh, ~what is a chief of staff? [00:01:27] And I think by defining it, we might already run into some of the [00:01:30] con pieces that we might be thinking about, but, but maybe you give it a [00:01:33] shot.
Raul: ~Um, ~so I think within the last.
Raul: Maybe five years ago. Actually, [00:01:36] this wasn't even a thing, ~uh, ~very much. I think within the last two, three, [00:01:39] this has really been picking up steam and it seems like this year a lot. [00:01:42] So it's more of a recent development, right? ~Um, ~I think a lot of [00:01:45] definitions are still up to date, but they still depend a lot on the venture.
Raul: [00:01:48] Really?
Real-World Examples
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Raul: What I've seen is, ~uh, ~more like [00:01:51] a chief of staff, traditional role, which there might actually [00:01:54] be a staff. So then there might actually even be a chief of [00:01:57] the, of the staff that is a more senior role sometimes. [00:02:00] So, ~uh, ~in concrete cases I've seen ~is, uh. They see the, uh, ~there is a couple of [00:02:03] assistance to the founders, ~uh, ~and there's even like office [00:02:06] managers back office people doing some kind of work, [00:02:09] booking flights, managing people's [00:02:12] calendars, events, all that kind of thing.
Raul: This has [00:02:15] typically been at a later stage, but I've even seen that at a series a [00:02:18] company, right? There was three founders. And they had a [00:02:21] staff of three people. ~Um, ~and then there was a chief of staff [00:02:24] who was kind of the connecting piece between that and also [00:02:27] deciding a lot on what should be done. Because if you have a [00:02:30] staff of three people for founders that actually creates more, can [00:02:33] create more work than it takes off unless you have [00:02:36] that chief of staff in the middle.
Raul: So that is quite kind of the [00:02:39] senior, ~uh, ~version of that. Another thing that I'm seeing right [00:02:42] now is, ~uh, ~I'm working ~with a, ~with a company. They're super early [00:02:45] stage, very exciting stuff just came back from Y Combinator and [00:02:48] they're looking for founders associates, right? So there's a founders associate [00:02:51] next to product and then there's one next to commercial.
Raul: And those [00:02:54] are more kind of like between an intern and a [00:02:57] revenue ops person who will just [00:03:00] take a lot of the work off and ~a lot of the, ~do a lot of the legwork. [00:03:03] as a founder, there's a million things to do. [00:03:06] And as you're still early stage and still in [00:03:09] founder sales, you're actually still doing 80 percent of the [00:03:12] time sales yourself.
Raul: And then there's everything [00:03:15] between. So it's a continuum.
Toni: so yeah, ~it's, it's, ~it's funny, right?
Challenges and Considerations
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Toni: [00:03:18] Because, ~um, ~I would almost say I have two different [00:03:21] definitions of both of these roles. ~Um, ~I think the chief of [00:03:24] staff. Is, yes, sure. ~It can be, ~[00:03:27] it can be an actual role that, ~you know, ~manages people and leads part of the [00:03:30] back office or something like this and does some of the, ~uh, ~personal [00:03:33] assistant job.
Toni: But I think actually what I've seen more and more on the [00:03:36] chief of staff is like, almost like an executive assistant. ~Uh, ~[00:03:39] meaning. Not, not picking up the dry cleaning, but, ~uh, ~[00:03:42] creating the board deck, ~uh, ~and, and then getting input from [00:03:45] the person to kind of, you know, fix, fix the board [00:03:48] deck a little bit. So really kind of very strategic work, ~uh, ~[00:03:51] usually very switched on people, people that are on the [00:03:54] same wavelength as, as, as, as the founder, for [00:03:57] example.
Toni: Right. ~Um, ~and can really carry. [00:04:00] executive tasks, ~um, ~you know, that, that the founder [00:04:03] can, can hand off, for example, the board decks, a [00:04:06] typical one, ~uh, ~or some reporting work that needs to be done or something like [00:04:09] that. Right. Or running the OKR process, [00:04:12] these kinds of things usually kind of land with the Chief of Staff.
Toni: ~The. ~the [00:04:15] founders associate, I actually ~don't, I don't, I ~don't have a very [00:04:18] kind of clear idea about it, but it feels a little bit [00:04:21] like a repackaging of this [00:04:24] executive assistant. ~Um, ~with, ~um, ~you know, especially early [00:04:27] stage, just a much more broad and much more [00:04:30] random kind of task list. ~Um, ~but you know, what, whatever the [00:04:33] founder needs that, that week or that day.
Toni: Right. [00:04:36] And where, where I'm kind of sometimes [00:04:39] thinking it's like, ~Is it, ~is it [00:04:42] difficult ~as, ~as a founder, as anyone leading this [00:04:45] role that doesn't have a recurring [00:04:48] responsibility to keep coming up with stuff to give that [00:04:51] person, ~uh, ~for me, that, that always felt a little bit like, ~uh, ~[00:04:54] you know, ~uh, ~maybe next week I have an idea.
Toni: And then you kind of [00:04:57] get into this conversation where. ~you know, ~the [00:05:00] employee isn't happy because they don't think there's a [00:05:03] strategic, anything that they're doing. So what's your [00:05:06] experience with that? ~Right. Kind of, how do you, how do you manage, ~how do you manage this role? ~If you, ~if you find yourself [00:05:09] having ~one, ~one of those ~and ~on your team.
Raul: ~Yeah. ~So for ~the more on ~the founder, [00:05:12] associate, ~uh, ~edge of things, I would say a lot of [00:05:15] times they're kind of, ~uh, ~Entrepreneurial [00:05:18] profile, ~um, but ~typically quite junior. So maybe even an [00:05:21] intern or a straight on university, but with high [00:05:24] aspirations and typically ~a high motor, ~high intelligence, high [00:05:27] motivation.
Raul: ~And so ~maybe they haven't founded something yet. ~Cause ~they're scared. They want [00:05:30] to learn a bit more, which is maybe a good idea. ~Uh, ~or they [00:05:33] just are really interested in your company. So sometimes I've seen founders [00:05:36] associates who are just super passionate about the thing the company's [00:05:39] doing and they want to just, Work there and do whatever, ~right?~
Raul: ~Um, ~I would argue [00:05:42] that my first job, ~uh, ~might actually have been that kind of [00:05:45] job because I was basically, ~uh, ~it was called business development [00:05:48] manager. ~Um, ~but I was directly under the CSO and [00:05:51] just helping a lot of things. And maybe even yours at [00:05:54] Falcon, as we've discussed a couple of episodes ago in the [00:05:57] Toni Holbein story.
Raul: ~Um, and ~in that kind of [00:06:00] instance, and the ones I've been talking about now, it's [00:06:03] just a lot of execution of things that the [00:06:06] CRO CSO founder has in their [00:06:09] head. ~Um, ~but we'll take a lot of time to get, ~uh, ~to get down to the road. [00:06:12] So for example, ~uh, ~we need to get this process [00:06:15] better. Toni, take care of it, right?
Raul: ~Uh, ~you sit down with the [00:06:18] consultant, you sit down with the expert, you sit down with the team, and then you make sure [00:06:21] that that thing happens, right? ~Um, ~or for me, the [00:06:24] first one was. I was straight on university and, ~uh, ~in [00:06:27] my first week of work, the CSO told me, Hey, you make sure the [00:06:30] Salesforce is going to be built correctly.
Raul: And that was just, I had [00:06:33] no idea about anything. Right. And, but he was like, okay, I think you can [00:06:36] probably figure this thing out and learn it within a week or two. [00:06:39] And, ~uh, ~we have this agency that we have this budget of 50 K and make [00:06:42] sure it sticks. ~Right. Um, ~or it can be hey Toni. Um, I want you to [00:06:45] look into this conversion rate thing.
Raul: ~Uh, ~or we need to get more [00:06:48] leads, ~uh, ~make sure you talk to marketing and see what happens there, right? [00:06:51] They're still going to be the person deciding, but they still know they need a [00:06:54] lot of legwork from you, but it's very specific.
Toni: ~the, ~the thing [00:06:57] is, I think it's extremely difficult to lead any person with [00:07:00] only special projects. ~I, ~I think this is, you know, I've been listening to you and I [00:07:03] think this is actually where ~my, ~my conclusion lies.
Toni: I think in both [00:07:06] of our roles, when we were kind of that [00:07:09] person, ~um, ~we had a daytime job. Like, we had [00:07:12] things to do. We had responsibilities. Some of them were fucking [00:07:15] boring and some of them we didn't want to do. ~Um, ~and then we were ~like, ~[00:07:18] extremely happy ~when, ~when someone came and gave us a special [00:07:21] project that felt, oh, this is actually interesting.
Toni: Like [00:07:24] that's actually what I want to do. ~Right. Um, ~what I feel is more [00:07:27] on the con side with those founder associates or super early [00:07:30] on chief of staff, like, you know, later on is a different thing, but [00:07:33] early on chief of staff, it feels like it's a perpetual [00:07:36] special projects role. ~Um, ~and I think that that [00:07:39] becomes weird.
Toni: ~And then, ~and then it starts to be a drag at [00:07:42] some point. ~Um, and, and I just, even, ~even if you think about like, Oh no, no, no, [00:07:45] no. Hey, we have a lot of special projects. [00:07:48] I think if you're a company early stage that has [00:07:51] lots of special projects. Then there's also something [00:07:54] wrong with your company. I'm sorry.
Toni: It's like, you know, that, that [00:07:57] shouldn't be the case. You know, fundraising, that's a special [00:08:00] project, ~right? Kind of, you need some help with that maybe, ~right? And then there might be, yes, a pros [00:08:03] improvement or a tool rollout or what have you, [00:08:06] maybe ~the, ~the annual strategic cycle is a special project [00:08:09] if you will.
Toni: ~Um, ~but then there needs to be stuff done in ~the, ~[00:08:12] the other weeks of which there ~Um, ~and I [00:08:15] think having a full time role just doing that, I [00:08:18] think early on, it just feels, it ~feels, uh, ~feels like waste, honestly.
Raul: [00:08:21] agree with that, but also disagree. ~Uh, ~it depends on really how you [00:08:24] use that person. And so, ~um, ~I think. In [00:08:27] the cases where it really just is a bunch of things [00:08:30] that let's say I'm a founder and I just have a couple of things that I want to get [00:08:33] out of my head and get on the road and I'm like, [00:08:36] okay, I'll hire someone to do these things right now.
Raul: I don't know exactly what to do with them [00:08:39] yet. And I think to be honest, that's the case. A lot of times I don't have a [00:08:42] three, five year plan for that person. I just know that I need to [00:08:45] get some things onto the road and I can't do them right now. So [00:08:48] I'll get a founder's associate. And a lot of the times, ~uh, ~the way that that [00:08:51] works in this case is I get an intern.
Raul: Okay. And I know [00:08:54] that for the next three to six months, I have a [00:08:57] CRM coming up. We need to define the process before someone needs to [00:09:00] handle the ~fucking~ agency that I don't want to deal with. And then at the end, ~uh, ~[00:09:03] within the next four to six months, we need to rebuild the slide deck because [00:09:06] we're going to fundraise that's plenty to do for an intern and they're probably [00:09:09] going to be happy about that because that's how they think anyways, there's an [00:09:12] end to that, right?
Raul: So I think in that case, it's probably not [00:09:15] such a bad idea. You also don't expect the intern to hit the road [00:09:18] running immediately. They're fresh out of university, they're super smart, [00:09:21] but they need to also understand how things work and business and all that. [00:09:24] So you're like, hey, if they manage to do these four or five things for the [00:09:27] couple thousand I pay them, that's probably okay.
Raul: So that's that [00:09:30] case, right? And maybe that what you're talking about, which is [00:09:33] a legitimate problem, can actually not even be a hindrance [00:09:36] there. However, when you hire someone to actually be [00:09:39] at a full time role, I do agree with you. Like, this can be really [00:09:42] difficult. What I have seen work well there, though, is [00:09:45] that that person Just works [00:09:48] themselves into a topic or two and then takes those [00:09:51] as part of their daily work.
Raul: ~So,~
Toni: [00:09:54] [00:09:57] [00:10:00] [00:10:03] [00:10:06] [00:10:09] [00:10:12] Yeah, ~the, ~the [00:10:15] intern thing, and maybe this is an unpopular, ~uh, ~opinion [00:10:18] here.
Internships and ROI
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Toni: But I actually really dislike the [00:10:21] whole internship stuff. ~Um, ~you know, when I was this age, I wanted to be an [00:10:24] intern, don't get me wrong, so I understand ~how, ~how I'm not helping [00:10:27] society here, but ~the, the, ~the sheer amount of ramp up [00:10:30] for a person for like a three month stint, usually it's like a three [00:10:33] month stint, right?
Toni: It's like a, it feels [00:10:36] crazy. ~Um, ~you know, if you are working in Goldman [00:10:39] Sachs or it's, ~uh, ~you know, McKinsey, I get it. [00:10:42] You're being staffed into this thing. There's Like, Hey, you get [00:10:45] the Excel spreadsheet and go, right. Kind of, I [00:10:48] think, I think they're being slotted in very smartly there. And, and then [00:10:51] it's also like a recruitment pipeline for later, but [00:10:54] for, ~um, the, ~the, the average startup, I wonder, [00:10:57] and maybe just, I haven't figured this out.
Toni: ~Uh, ~maybe, maybe that's [00:11:00] the bigger issue here, but just [00:11:03] slotting in interns. I feel like, ~um, ~that, that turned out [00:11:06] never like ROI positive for me when, when I [00:11:09] was doing that.
Raul: I would actually [00:11:12] agree with you in most cases, ~uh, ~except [00:11:15] for the edge cases. ~So in, uh, ~The kind of ratio of ramp up [00:11:18] to what do they bring me is probably even a bigger problem that [00:11:21] the money itself, because if you look at Berlin, this [00:11:24] is not the case anymore, but Berlin startups here [00:11:27] was built on the rocket internet, ~uh, ~idea [00:11:30] of like interns are going through everything cause they're cheap and.
Raul: ~Uh, and ~[00:11:33] we're just gonna kind of squeeze all the life out of them cause [00:11:36] they're young and they have energy anyways. ~Um, ~and then we're going to feed them some [00:11:39] beer and mate and they're going to be fine the next day. Right? So [00:11:42] that's kind of like how Berlin was built. I'm not saying that's a good thing and it's [00:11:45] not the case anymore.
Raul: ~Um, ~in most cases, ~uh, ~that's [00:11:48] probably not going to be a good use of your time as a founder, [00:11:51] forget the money. ~Right. ~But in the edge cases, [00:11:54] either ~when some, ~when the task is very specific and very [00:11:57] clearly structured. Such as in the, let's call it [00:12:00] Goldman, ~uh, ~case. I'm not sure that that is the case at Goldman, to be honest, but [00:12:03] let's take that kind of as a, I'm thinking more like, ~uh, ~[00:12:06] Siemens or, ~uh, ~biased off, ~uh, ~like [00:12:09] German, like heavy middle stunt [00:12:12] corporate, whatever.
Raul: I'm thinking more of those kinds of companies where there's [00:12:15] like a very specific thing to do for them. ~Probably. ~That I've seen that work [00:12:18] really well. And I've actually have a very concrete example in my mind where even in [00:12:21] commercial, there was exactly one thing to do. ~Okay. ~And it was [00:12:24] very clear and it just needed someone to do it for six months.
Raul: Right. ~Cool. ~[00:12:27] Or, ~um, ~when it's like your [00:12:30] expectations are so low, there's a million fuzzy things on your head. [00:12:33] You just need someone to take like one or two to make your life a little [00:12:36] bit easier so you can breathe again. ~Right. ~And, ~uh, ~your expectations are [00:12:39] also not very high for what that person is going to bring you [00:12:42] and how much they're going to do, but you know that it's going to help [00:12:45] you a lot and help you kind of like your mental state a lot.[00:12:48]
Toni: So, but listening to you by taking this [00:12:51] intern thing, ~um, ~and, and matching it to the founder associate. [00:12:54] I think that is a bad match then honestly, [00:12:57] kind of, that's what I think, even if you had like a [00:13:00] defined project, like fundraising. It's like, this [00:13:03] is so complex to kind of work into this, [00:13:06] founders struggle to kind of get, get fully revved up [00:13:09] themselves.
Toni: Right. And to kind of then having some, some [00:13:12] person super smart, super ambitious, don't get me wrong, but [00:13:15] fresh out of university and then leaving the place in three months again, [00:13:18] like that doesn't, you know, that's potentially a bad project to [00:13:21] kind of give them. Right. But then on the flip side, having someone [00:13:24] only doing special projects is also not good.
Toni: So. ~You know, ~I'm [00:13:27] not saying that there is potentially a [00:13:30] perfect match ~sometime, ~somewhere where this just absolutely [00:13:33] works out, but my advice would [00:13:36] be, ~um, half, you know, ~invest in some junior roles that have actually [00:13:39] something to do in your company and then trying from that [00:13:42] talent, trying to find some people that can take on some ~special, ~special [00:13:45] projects simply because they want to, not because they're being [00:13:48] compensated for that.
Toni: There's a, ~um, you know, ~promotion being [00:13:51] promised to you because of that, just because they're passionate about [00:13:54] this, want to learn more and kind of want to do that and that then can qualify [00:13:57] them to kind of do something else later on. Right. But I [00:14:00] wouldn't, ~you know, and you know, let's, ~let's see ~how, ~how well this ages, but I [00:14:03] wouldn't have a chief of staff.
Toni: I wouldn't have a founder associate that, you [00:14:06] know, basically ~their, ~their full time job is to be an [00:14:09] executive assistant, which is a thing also, which is like [00:14:12] absolutely okay, but later stage, ~um, ~and, or being [00:14:15] a ongoing permanent special projects person, ~uh, ~[00:14:18] I don't believe I'm calling con on that.
Raul: ~uh, ~adding [00:14:21] one more thing to the, ~um, ~hiring someone who has a [00:14:24] kind of day job, right? You need to give them a day job. [00:14:27] Yes. And then you can, ~uh, ~they can, they can go into special projects if they [00:14:30] really want to. Okay. That is one way to do it. [00:14:33] One thing that doesn't work though, but that [00:14:36] people have tried concrete examples of people I've seen [00:14:39] is.
Raul: If you're kind of [00:14:42] planning in your way in your head that, Hey, I'm going to hire this [00:14:45] Toni guy and he's going to take over this and this task. And if [00:14:48] he's really interested and he can, he can, ~uh, ~just take these other two [00:14:51] things like CRM, and then he can do the gong [00:14:54] implementation and whatever.
Toni: yeah. ~Yes.~
Raul: thing is an, is a different [00:14:57] skillset.
Raul: It takes a different kind of knowledge, a different kind of [00:15:00] intelligence, a different kind of working speed and working with. If [00:15:03] you don't screen Toni for that when you hire [00:15:06] him to do the boring data room thing that I just need him to do as a day [00:15:09] job and he checks that mark, but he doesn't [00:15:12] check the kind of business and doing new thing.
Raul: Mark, it's kind of a [00:15:15] mismatch, and I have seen that work. So you hire [00:15:18] data room people who just want to take care of the [00:15:21] making sure nothing falls down there. They do that for three months, and [00:15:24] now you get them riled up and you're like, Hey, you want to do this new thing? And they're [00:15:27] like, Yeah, I want to do it, but they're not able to because you [00:15:30] screened them the wrong
Toni: Yeah,
Raul: And so that I've
Toni: agree. I totally [00:15:33] agree. And the thing is, it's not going to be your SDRs or [00:15:36] BDRs that then going to get special assignments, by the way, [00:15:39] it's, it's probably going to be your, ~um, ~your, your [00:15:42] little bit more junior finance guy, maybe you don't have a CFO [00:15:45] yet, ~um, ~or it's going to be, ~um. I don't know.~
Toni: I don't want to say ~sales, ~sales, rev ops, [00:15:48] but someone in this operation space sometimes, right, kind of [00:15:51] that maybe in the early days is a bit, ~you know, ~still more [00:15:54] junior, but is happy to take on other assignments and so forth, [00:15:57] right? There's always someone where you can find ~and, and, uh, You know, not necessarily find open, you know, it's not like they have time in their calendar or anything like this, but, uh, ~the [00:16:00] willingness to go above and beyond and then do that special project.
Toni: Right. [00:16:03] I think that's actually what you're, it's, it's really them wanting [00:16:06] to do it, what you're looking for. ~Um, ~and ~I've, ~I've seen that work [00:16:09] extremely well, like across the board work extremely well, actually. [00:16:12]
Our verdict
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Toni: But we're also coming up on time here. ~Um, ~so ~what is, ~[00:16:15] what is your conclusion? ~Uh, ~founders associate early stage chief of [00:16:18] staff con or the cure.
Raul: I would call it a con,[00:16:21]
Toni: There you go.
Raul: but a con the way [00:16:24] that most people are using them and with the [00:16:27] expectations that they're having. And, ~uh, ~I think a lot of times I've [00:16:30] just seen people be like really helpful for like a couple thousand [00:16:33] bucks and, and deliver a lot of value when it's really needed. [00:16:36] So that's, that it's a, it's a cure.
Raul: ~But like, ~because it's [00:16:39] early stage and for a lot of founders, it's the first hire sometimes [00:16:42] they even make, cause they just want to, they're not sure yet. Should [00:16:45] I get a full time VP? Should I get a salesperson? I [00:16:48] just need someone to help me. I'll get a founder's associate. That is an absolute [00:16:51] con. Like you're just going to get that person.
Raul: You're probably better off [00:16:54] just hiring a real person, like who's been around the [00:16:57] block. And yeah, that comes with other headaches, but, ~um, ~in those cases, [00:17:00] it's more like a con. ~Yeah.~
Toni: Well, that sums it up for today. ~Uh, roll. ~[00:17:03] Thank you so much. Everyone that's listening and kind of liking this thing, by [00:17:06] the way, you can hit the subscribe and follow button. It's for [00:17:09] free. ~Um, ~and it's gonna actually help us kind of build the show because that's what we're [00:17:12] planning to do. So thank you everyone very much for listening [00:17:15] and to roll.
Toni: Thanks for chatting. Have a good
Raul: Thanks, Toni.