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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: Good morning, Tom.
Speaker 2: Hey, Paul.
How you doing?
Speaker: I am feeling settled.
Like a nomad who has finally
claimed land and sown his seeds.
I am now a resident of Hawaii.
Wow.
Amazing.
Yes.
I own a vehicle.
I have registered myself with
the department of motor vehicles
Speaker 2: here in Hawaii.
Wow.
What kind of vehicle are we talking about?
Speaker: Hyundai Santa Fe
sports, 2015, 92, 000 miles.
Okay.
What's a full day?
Speaker 2: See, okay.
What is a Santa Fe sport?
What kind of a car is that?
Speaker: It's like a, it's
like a soccer mom car.
That's like a van, a
Speaker 2: minivan.
Like
Speaker: a big old van.
It's got lots of space.
Five safety rating.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You, and it was not
opted for the minivan for just
the two of you to drive around.
Speaker: That's right.
That's right.
Because we're a settled couple now.
No, the reason is because we surf.
We surf.
Ah, I see.
So we're gonna put the
surfboard in the back.
The boards can go in the back.
Speaker 2: Lovely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Very nice.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at your window
and noticing, by the way, that it's pitch
black outside of Paul's windows right now.
We've had a little role reversal here.
For a while, I was the one waking
up in the dark to record this
podcast in the morning, and now
it's Paul's turn to do that.
For a while.
Yes.
Peace.
He's being a good sport about it.
Speaker: No, that's okay.
I, my schedule is it's like a, Neolithic
farmer schedule where I just, I go to
bed as the final sun sets, as the last
sort of reflections off the clouds.
Dim
Speaker 2: and then your alarm goes off at
Speaker: four, like three 30, four.
Yeah.
Oh
Speaker 2: God.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, we were doing some work with a
European company, so it's helpful.
I have to do that anyway, I say
Speaker 2: that in some ways it's going to
get harder, I think as the days get longer
because you're going to have to go to bed
at a time that really doesn't feel like.
It's time to go to bed if
you keep up that schedule.
But I guess you have a couple
more weeks of the days getting
shorter where maybe it'll feel
Speaker: not
Speaker 2: so bad.
Speaker: You are also now a settled man.
You've done a lot of traveling yourself.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Yes.
Been all over the place.
We, Paul and I, since our last
record, attended a very fun wedding
in Cancun for one of our High school
friends and awesome for Thanksgiving.
Yes.
Love you.
Mahika.
So yeah now back in SF for a
minute before I am going back to
Minnesota for Christmas in a couple
of weeks, but then some good time.
And yes, but less than it was.
So yeah.
Things are good.
I am so
Speaker: nice to see a part in Tom.
They're at the wedding.
You guys are so lovely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was we had a fun time.
Yeah, it was good to Paul and I actually
have not been in the same physical place
for very long, much in a couple of months.
So it was fun to get to hang out with.
Speaker: I'll say the thing,
despite it being a little cringy,
you're not going to like it, but
I'll say that it was prepared to
Speaker 2: not like it,
Speaker: tell her partner and such
a honey they're just so in love that
they're just like, I spent spending
time with them was like being invisible.
It was great.
You guys are just constantly I was like.
Excited to hang out and you guys
are just so focused on each other.
It's okay.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Okay.
I'm sorry I'm, sorry if it felt like we
weren't no Present to hang out with you.
Okay.
Speaker: I'm happy for you.
I just like oopie.
Come hang out with me.
I need you I say, Yeah, no, it's all good
Speaker 2: Okay.
Yeah, it was a very fun trip.
I I thought of this podcast a little
bit yesterday because something
dramatic kind of happened here in San
Francisco, which is that at around 11 a.
m.
yesterday, I got an alert on my
phone saying you are in danger,
tsunami warning seek high ground.
Yes.
Very dramatic.
The most dramatic phone
notification I have ever seen.
Seek high
Speaker: ground.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And so I was like, Whoa, what do I even.
do right now.
I had a moment of okay, this
is a very scary warning with
no, with very little detail.
It seems like you need to like,
literally get out of your apartment
and run to the top of the tallest
building you can find like right now.
And I think that was a moment where
I was like, okay, wow, I could.
Let my emotions really get out of
check here and be like holy shit.
What do I do now?
But I think this was it was a moment
where I noticed myself do something
a little bit like okay You know what?
This could be true And the likelihood
that I'm going to like, whatever,
get to the top of the tallest
building and save myself from the
tsunami or whatever is pretty small.
So let's think about what's the, what can
I really do and control in this moment?
And what I decided was
actually not that much.
Like, where are you?
I'm in my apartment here in
San Francisco, which is like a
hundred feet above sea level.
And what time
Speaker: is it?
Speaker 2: It's 11am.
I'm at work.
Or, I'm working from home.
But anyway, I just thought like in
terms of all of Marcus's entries
about live every like you are already
dead Yeah, live on bonus time.
There was a It reminded me of that I
guess sure is my part and by the way
there was like There's maybe there's some
deep lesson here, but nothing happened.
There was no tsunami.
The warning got canceled an hour
later Nothing at all happened.
So it was purely like,
yeah, okay Wow, and then
Speaker: look Tom, I think you lived
in accordance with your capital
and nature and your duties you
message slack You messaged the team.
Speaker 2: I did message the
team saying don't get swept away.
Very helpful advice Please don't
get swept away by a tsunami
Speaker: your friend, Tom, you could have
been like rushing out the door or running
to the quake tower, you, you did the,
you were a citizen and then you probably
messaged the Parna no, I did do that.
Yeah.
There you go.
See, there you go.
So yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah.
So I sent two texts.
It was my, that, those were
my duties in this situation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think you're right.
I think you're correct.
Actually.
Yeah.
That was that.
The right thing to do.
Yeah,
Speaker: and then you, and you
contemplated your own death.
Speaker 2: Yes, it really took me out
of my work for about 20 minutes where
I was like, whoa, I am really thinking
about what it would be like if San
Francisco got hit by a huge tsunami
Speaker: right now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like you're also on the top.
Or like on a pretty high floor.
Yes,
Speaker 2: I'm up I mean i'm on the other
side of pacific heights this big hill
in san francisco relative to the ocean
And yeah, even in my building i'm on
the top floor Yes, I mean it would have
to have been an absolutely absurd like
cartoonish tsunami in order to actually
affect me in any way I did eventually
find the like evacuation zone maps on
On the internet and believe it or not.
I'm nowhere close to anyone that needs
to be evacuated because it's only
Speaker: Yeah, like Sunset Beach.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the
edges of North Beach, downtown,
Speaker: that kind of stuff.
So yes,
Speaker 2: no workloads.
Fair
Speaker: enough.
Good.
That's a good one.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyway just had a
moment of being like this is an
opportunity for a little bit of
stoicism in my everyday life.
Speaker: I think.
Nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Nice.
What about, oh, actually I have one too.
I had a near death experience.
Oh, really?
Speaker 2: I don't even know if
I would call, I don't know if I
would call this one near death.
You
Speaker: almost died, Tom.
Yeah, I think you
Speaker 2: can shout and maybe death
could hear you kind of situation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Mine was a hike where
I went the wrong way.
Oh and I was alone.
So Oopie was sick this weekend.
I was alone.
I went for a solo hike and it was in
Hawaii and it was early in the morning.
Cause I'm waking up at
four in the morning.
So it was early in the morning, right?
As the sun is going up,
nobody's on this hike.
Yeah.
And someone, as I went in some nice
neighbor told me just follow the pipe.
And that was his advice.
It's like this, it's like this basically
Hawaii, like giant mountain range,
to, to ocean, to, to both sides.
So that's the way island works.
You're hiking up the giant
mountain range and you're
following a pipe that bifurcates.
Okay, so there's fucking follow the pipe
Speaker 2: is follow the pipe is not
great advice if the pipe bifurcates
Speaker: So there's a there's two
pipes and I follow the wrong pipe.
We're like 20 minutes
Speaker 2: Oh
Speaker: up this Giants and I'm like
coughing and puffing and it's like the
trail is getting harder Like I should
have known right there is a trail
Speaker 2: though Okay.
Speaker: Like like some idiot went
before me here, obviously, because I
could and it's like muddy and slippery
and like I'm following these like
footsteps, which are wind dwindling.
And I'm I've gotten really far in
and then I'm going like down a cliff.
And I'm like, wow, okay, this
is boy, I hope this gets easier.
And I'm, but I'm like, at
this point, I'm so too far in.
So it's going to be quite hard to
scramble back up back into the,
original point of bifurcation.
So I'm just like, okay, I guess I
just got to get through this until,
we get to a better part of the path.
And eventually I realized, okay,
actually there is no more path.
Like I'm on a path.
Yeah.
And so I'm still there.
Speaker 2: You're still
following the pipe.
Speaker: No, the pipe is like
going up literally up a cliff.
And I'm like, okay, I can't do that.
And so I'm like, hello, no pipe.
My phone doesn't work.
And why doesn't your phone
Speaker 2: work?
Speaker: Because I'm in
like, who knows where?
Oh, no reception, Cliffside, Hawaii.
Yeah.
I see.
And it turns out I'm
just in a canyon, okay.
There's a river at the bottom.
Yeah.
And I'm in a canyon.
I'm one of the sides of the canyon.
It's very steep.
Yeah.
And there's all these like little scraggly
trees growing on the side somehow.
Those trees that like Sure.
Despite everything just grow Yes.
Fight ally all the time.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I'm, so basically I'm like,
okay, I need to get to the river.
And cause I think that's
where the actual path is.
And so I'm like, like muscling
my, like grabbing each tree
Speaker 3: like
Speaker: sliding down all
the way down to the river.
And there was this moment, that
moment where like the only way to get
to the final stage that I actually
down at the river flat is to leap.
It's to jump, like I had to let go
and fall a little bit, which is, it
Speaker 2: makes it irreversible.
So once you're down there,
completely irreversible.
Yeah,
Speaker: exactly.
Exactly.
Okay, great.
And that was the moment where I
was like I remember before that
I sat there for a while thinking
like, okay, so what are my options?
I could just sit and hope
that someone finds me.
I could try to climb back up
or I could just take this small
risk, um, and to get outta here.
And I, I took the small risk and,
but it was a decision, right?
I had to make a decision
about risk for sure.
Yeah.
And.
And I was very careful, like more careful
than I've ever, I'm not the sort of 16
year old that I I remember like there was
an age where I would have been like, Oh
yeah, blah, blah, blah, like climb easy.
But I just, I really did sit.
I was like, I have responsibilities.
There are people who will
be very upset if I die.
, that was a nice,
Speaker 2: okay.
And then just to be clear,
you're here now going down to
the river was the right move.
That's not intuitive.
Okay.
Speaker: In retrospect, it was
probably very if someone had a
camera, like watching, it probably
would have been very melodramatic.
Like it was moving so slowly.
Speaker 2: You felt like three feet.
Yeah.
Speaker: I was not, I felt
nine inches or something.
It was super.
Yeah.
Like I bet in, I bet from
third perspective, it would
have been very melodramatic,
but for me it felt super Epic.
And yes, I'm fine.
I got scratched up.
I was very dirty, but but I was, I'm
Speaker 2: impressed that
you found your way back.
Under these circumstances
like that's not trivial.
Just why I think it was like
wherewithal to detect Okay, I'm in
a ravine or whatever and I should go
to the base of the ravine and that'll
wake me up with the path Again, wow,
Speaker: I might be describing it a little
I might be making a little epic than I
was like I can see the path basically.
Okay.
I was like, oh, that's
where I'm supposed to be.
I need to get there
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.
Nice.
Yeah.
Okay.
So there's a little bit of a through
line, I feel like, between both of our
stories there, where there was maybe
more perceived danger than real danger.
But that
Speaker: Or ninnies
Speaker 2: is the yeah.
But also, there's something there
about, that's philosophy is still
comes to us even, it doesn't really
matter how real the danger is.
per se.
That's it's, yeah.
Or put differently, stoicism is
a philosophy for big dangers and
small dangers alike, I think.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, I think we had, we brushed up with
a concept of oh, just like thinking
about death in a, which, which in
the modern world we do very seldomly.
Yeah.
But I think used to happen like
every day in Marcus's time.
So yeah, every day it's I'm going
to go out to the front again and
someone might shoot me with an arrow.
Okay.
Sounds good.
Yeah.
Tsunami warning.
So I guess that's the, I think we are
it's a moment where we can empathize
a little more with how Marcus feels.
Speaker 2: I think that's totally right.
Okay.
Speaking about Marcus and death
specifically, I want to raise something,
which is that I watched gladiator.
I'd never seen Ridley Scott's
2000 best picture winner at the
Oscars gladiator before I watched
it over the Thanksgiving break.
This was something we'd talked about
in a previous episode, just because
we had to realize that as far as the
popular American conception of Marcus
Aurelius, it's gladiator is probably it.
It's probably the biggest
one for how people think.
Think that's
Speaker: how I think he
looks and that's who you're
Speaker 2: picturing.
That's who I'm picturing.
This whole time.
And I have not had that
image of him in my brain.
So now I do.
I really enjoyed the movie.
I guess what follows are spoilers for
gladiator, which came out in 2000.
So listener, if you haven't seen
gladiator, go watch it, pause
this episode or we're sorry.
We're going to talk about
what happens in gladiator.
Yeah.
He's only in it for the first 20 minutes
because he gets killed by comatose.
Big spoiler.
That is the part where I'm assuming
there's no historical basis for it.
And we, or at least we don't know that.
Think
Speaker: that he died of natural causes.
Let's put it that way.
Speaker 2: But that's like how it plays
out in the movie as well, where the
story that's get told, the story that
gets told to the public is he died of
natural causes, even though actually
his son kills him because he, Marcus
wants to pass Commodus, his son over
for the emperor role when he dies.
And then eventually the point is
Speaker 3: to,
Speaker 2: yeah, so it's, yeah, it
is a sort of conspiratorial thing.
My impressions of Marcus from the movie.
He's depicted.
I think.
This is something we've
talked about before.
He's depicted as effectively
like the perfect emperor.
He's this really old man with a big beard.
And then everything he says is just like
Speaker: amazing, perfect
Speaker 2: pearls of wisdom and nothing
human or flawed ever comes out of him.
Except I think there's the one.
I really like, um, the scene where
he gets killed is a very interesting
one where he is talking with his son,
Commodus, who is flawed in a lot of ways.
He's played by Joaquin
Phoenix, who does a great job.
And he's, Commodus is talking about how,
Marcus once sent him a letter with a
list of all the virtues or, Or whatever.
And comedy is and I knew I
didn't have any of those virtues.
Basically that
Speaker: scene was amazing.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's really well written.
It's very believable.
And he talks about how he comedy has
other virtues, like ambition and I
forget what else, but that sort of thing.
I think loyalty or something like that.
That's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then he also, he, Commodus
is also talking about basically how what
he really wants in a very believable
way is to just be loved by his father,
basically, that he's always felt
that his father, knew that he didn't
have the virtues that he so prized.
And so therefore didn't truly
love his son, Commodus and.
The thing that felt very believable
and interesting to me, and I think it's
the most interesting, it's the most
human part of the Marcus characters,
how he responds to his son Commodus
with these accusations, which is
to say something like your father.
Fault as a son or my feelings as
a father or something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Where he's, he basically says, all the
stuff you're talking about is on me.
Yeah.
It's my bad.
I, yeah.
The implication being like,
yes, I didn't pay enough.
I didn't love you enough.
I haven't loved you enough as a
son because I've been so obsessed
with my own life and Yeah.
Concepts or whatever.
Yeah.
Which seems, oh, that's such a
Speaker: good scene, Tom.
Oh, you're so isn't, so all
the money isn't, it's so good.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And.
Yes.
I think they're both it's fine
acted performances for both of them.
It's, I think it's a
really well written scene.
But it was really fascinating to me.
It's like that line, the fit, your
feelings is your fault as a son.
Yeah.
Yes.
It's like fatalistic in a way
there's like an aspect of we don't
get to control our own lives.
What happens in our own lives is.
Determined by our parents or something,
but it's also in some ways very sweet
and generous and he's saying like
I It is a form of love to say yeah,
none of this, I know you haven't been
happy But none of it's your fault.
I'm so he's apologizing in effect.
And what's interesting is it doesn't
work I think it would have worked on
me if I was really I don't know You
Speaker: think it would
have worked on you?
Speaker 2: Maybe interesting.
I don't think so
Speaker: reaction, which is You
Which is, I think that's the
worst thing he could have said.
Speaker 2: Really?
Oh, interesting.
Speaker: I think that's how he feels.
I don't, so it's very believable.
I think that's what someone who
actually hates their son would say.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And is also self reflective
and whatever, and philosophical, like
Marcus, is the exact right line for him.
But if I was the son hearing that, it
sounds number one, it sounds irreversible.
Yeah, he's confirming.
It sounds irreversible.
Yeah.
And he's saying there's
nothing you can do.
Yeah, it's like the worst possible it
is, but it's also what Marcus would do.
He's a very judgmental guy.
He does believe that there
is a right way to live.
And he clearly does believe that
these are the right, he's not willing
to acknowledge the facts that yes,
there are different virtues out there.
And these are the virtues that
we need an emperor, but not
everyone should be an emperor.
And that's okay, bro.
Like I wish that's how he he
has definitely should have given
Speaker 2: that not everyone
needs to be an emperor, but yes.
Okay.
Yes, you're right.
But he's, what he's not doing is making
communists feel better about, yeah.
Not being Marcus,
Speaker: not just feel better.
Like the guy clearly doesn't
like his son, his own son.
He doesn't like that.
And I just wish he was
like, this job sucks, man.
Like you don't want this job.
Let someone, let some like general take
this job and kill themselves over that,
like it's, you have, you're amazing
and all these other ways and you need
to do other things with your life.
That's not your destiny to be the emperor.
I wish that was how he responded.
Yeah.
Instead, but that's a lot to ask.
I think
Speaker 3: yeah, I think it's
a very fatherly response.
Speaker: If my dad told me
that I would be so upset.
I don't know.
Tell me about why I feel
better with that response.
Speaker 2: It is.
I interpreted it as very loving
is the thing that it's I'm maybe
I'm being too generous the way he
said it, because I think I totally
like everything you just said.
I completely understand.
And I agree with, but there is this
implication in it, like they're
in this kind of adversarial moment
where the son is saying, I don't have
your virtues and you don't love me.
And that's a very adversarial
thing for a son to say to his.
Father,
and I think in a way he addresses
both of those things in a single
sentence by saying, listen,
I see you.
I'm not here to bullshit you.
I'm not going to say no, you do have
all the virtues that I have and that
I, and of course we love each other
because that's not true, but I love you.
And you shouldn't beat yourself up over
not having the virtues that I have,
because the reason you don't have them is
because I didn't give them to you, which
is, which to be clear is something that
I clearly have a huge amount of regret.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Over there's a
lot of humanity and love.
there.
I, that doesn't really take away from
the things you're saying about, it
seems irreversible and and it does it.
I acknowledge the central
premise of yes, I have centered.
I haven't loved you exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's remarkably human leveling with
his son, which I think you're right.
And I think that I was maybe
not appreciating is that I don't
competence is just not really maybe
ready for that kind of true human
leveling with his extremely like.
High up the pyramid of
self actualization, dad.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's the truth.
It just screams the truth.
I just don't know if that's the truth.
It's
Speaker 2: not the right thing.
Speaker: In order for Commodus to take
that truth and do something productive
with it, he would need to be really high
up the pyramid of actualization himself.
He would need to know that, yes,
this is what my father believes,
my father's not the end all be all.
I can still control my own
destiny and be a good person.
That bit was like left for
Commodus to figure out.
I
Speaker 2: agree that the big problem
here is that The way that Commodus whole
life up to that point has been set up
for him to idolize his father and to
prize being the next emperor above all
else and his whole life has been building
towards that in a way that is in large
part Marcus's fault probably, although
maybe not 100 percent Marcus's fault.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting the difference
in reaction we had because I know
people, I have a handful of folks
in my life who I know who have
this kind of, super whatever.
Usually it is a father figure.
Yeah.
It's like the super, important
father figure who believes that they
failed their, their kid, their son,
actually, yes, in every case I'm
thinking of it's their son and gives
this speech, which is devastating.
Goes that way.
Interesting.
And that's the, and the son is like,
It's just and it like this haunts
them for their, I don't know, maybe
at some, I guess these are people
who I'm not going to name names, but
they've had to struggle with this
and figure it out, figure out what to
do with this information themselves.
And I think it's like a very
difficult psychological journey.
And I feel very I wish you know, I guess
I just want to shake that dad and be like,
shut up just because you live this life
doesn't mean that it's the best life.
You're so self centered and, get out of
your own, but I wish I could do that.
But yeah, anyway, it's, that was my read.
So it's funny.
It's interesting to hear both sides.
You're right.
Said very empathetically.
The way you said it sure
sounded better than the way.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I'm giving him a lot of credit, maybe.
And I think you're hitting on
something and then we can stop
belaboring this one scene.
I think there's a, it's he's
not, what he's failing to do
is be a teacher in any way.
He's just Hey we're both grownups
who fully understand the world.
Let me be real with you.
And then he's missing out on his job.
Is his duty to teach and instruct his son
about the nature of the world or whatever.
So
Speaker: yeah.
Yeah.
It maybe gives his son too much credit,
Speaker 2: that's the problem.
Yes.
He's there's this.
This thing that happens to a guy
like Marcus, I think, where he's
so high up the pyramid or whatever,
he forgets a little bit what it's
like to not be up there anymore.
And so that leads to
mistakes like this one.
Speaker: Oh, that's such a good scene.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was good stuff.
I really, the movie overall is very fun.
I enjoyed it.
It's obviously a mix of, so another
thing I was thinking about is
just Ridley Scott as a director.
In general, obviously gladiator and
the new gladiator that's just come out,
which we could maybe watch at some point.
Paul and I last year watched the
Napoleon movie that Ridley Scott
directed with Joaquin Phoenix.
Obviously stuff like alien
as well is in the oeuvre.
I was just thinking about as a director,
this guy, what is his like hallmark
by comparison to other big, famous
directors in American cinema right
now, really Scott to me is a little bit
more I can't, he's more of a chameleon.
He's more of a,
Speaker: yeah.
Speaker 2: I can't quite figure him out
as well, but I had one thought about
it, which I think he really likes.
I think that gladiator is about that.
I think alien is also about is
like humanity at its best and
its worst kind of simultaneously.
He loves doing this thing where
it's in some ways gladiator is about
this conflict in Rome between should
we be a Senate or should we be.
Ruled by the, by an emperor and everybody
is talking about the sort of high
ideals of what Rome is and Rome is an
idea for them and et cetera, et cetera.
But also most of the movie is just
like the same people going to the,
Coliseum or whatever, and watching the
most violent barbaric stuff happen.
And they basically enjoyed that as well.
But I think alien, the alien movies
have the same thing going on where
it's like amazing sci fi, but it's
also about the universe doesn't
care and is extremely forgiving.
So it's the best and the
worst mashed up together.
Seems to be my, that's my new theory
of what Ridley Scott likes to do.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
For all the flack that
the Napoleon movie got,
Speaker 2: yeah,
Speaker: it was, I get a
lot of things in some ways.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a weird one.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wish I had seen Gladiator before it
because it's, I would have, I think it is
very much related to Gladiator in a way.
The fact that it's Commodus is
also Napoleon, the same actor.
Yes, I think they're very, yeah, anyway,
I want to go back and see the, see
Napoleon again and think about it in
relationship to Gladiator a little bit.
Speaker: Nice.
We should do like a watch
party for a Gladiator two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that
would be fun, I think.
Okay.
Let's pick an episode at some point.
Yeah.
Where we're be beforehand we both
watch Gladiator two and we discuss it.
I think spoilers Marcus
Aurelius is not in it, but that
doesn't necessarily mean Sure.
We
Speaker: can't, we can just
this become a whoopy review.
Speaker 2: Yes, let's get this turned
into a get another movies podcast.
Okay.
One, one last thought about
gladiator and then we can move on.
The other thing that occurred to
me while I was watching it is that
Maximus played by Russell Crowe,
who's just so great, by the way.
Oh my God.
I know this is not an original
observation in any way, but boy,
that is a movie star right there.
He's so gritty.
He's really good in gladiator.
And he is also an extremely stoic.
Character even though he is,
obviously Marcus Aurelius is stoicism
incarnate in the movie and he's
like Marcus is effectively Maximus's
dad for the purposes of the movie.
And it really made me like, I wonder
how much this movie specifically
cemented the kind of military martial
man should be like it's such a perfect
archetype of the stoic military man.
I, it's hard to even think of who would
compete in like movie history for just
like a perfect distillation of the
philosophy into a movie like protagonist.
Speaker: You watched it recently.
Give us some of the tidbits
that made you think this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's always
like Facing death, right?
In the way we're talking, like
constantly, he's, okay, spoilers.
The big picture story is he's
a general high ranking general
who, knows Marcus intimately.
And then when Commodus kills Marcus
to usurp the throne, he casts a spell.
He effectively exiles Maximus.
Maximus ends up getting sold as a
slave in like Morocco or something.
And he has to, he becomes like a,
an involuntary fighter in gladiator
battles and he just keeps winning.
But he's also, he just is the kind
of thing where he's, his philosophy
is always okay I'm about to be dead.
I have nothing left to live for.
His wife and child have
been murdered by Commodus.
And so he's constantly saying sweet
stuff in the movie about like, even
in his very first speech, he says
something to his, while he's still
a general, he says something about
okay, here's our military strategy.
And if you notice that the hills
are green with grass and the
like wind there's like a sweet.
smell in the wind, then you're
already in Elysium or whatever.
So don't worry about it,
which is like exactly.
Speaker 3: Yes,
Speaker 2: it's sick.
And it is like a hundred
percent Marcus type stoicism
of yeah, you're already dead.
You already made it to Elysium.
Don't worry about it.
So just go do the battle.
Speaker: You're right.
I also, so that's true.
And I also really, now that you're
saying it, I remember the scene where.
He shows up on a caravan in Morocco
like with a band of, whatever slaves
and they end up becoming friends, right?
And fight together through all the
arenas until they get to the Coliseum
and go to the Coliseum together.
Yeah.
But the style of friendship is so
like what I stereotypically stoic.
It's so few words are exchanged.
So much meaning is in just silences
and just very small moments.
It feels, yeah, it's all the stereotypes
of stoicism, like packed into one.
The guy doesn't say a lot, but
it feels like these guys are,
Speaker 2: yeah, they all
just, and they, yes, spoiler.
They do die for each other.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yeah.
But like the way that, yes, the way that
he commands the respect of all these other
guys, a lot of whom are physically much
bigger and more impressive than he is.
They like, after 10 or 20 minutes
of this movie, these guys all
just clearly would follow him
anywhere and do anything for him.
And you totally believe it as an I
totally believed it as an audience member.
It was not like, oh, okay, whatever.
That feels fake.
It felt very real.
Speaker: I didn't even,
so it's interesting.
I didn't even see it as
like a hierarchy thing.
I guess you're right.
They were going to follow him, but
I felt, I did feel like they were.
Speaker 2: There's friendship.
They just
Speaker: trusted each other.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I know.
I like that point.
I agree.
There's one person in particular in the
movie who he's friends with, who's a black
guy from somewhere in the Roman empire.
Where they have, yes, a really nice
friendship in the movie, actually, that
I know exactly what you're talking about.
And yes, you're right.
It's they tell each other like one joke
over the place, and then they like,
and yes, they both talk about their
families who are either dead or far away.
And then it's okay, and we can just
tell now that they are the best of
friends and like nothing, nothing could
ever come between them after that.
Basically, but it's very
yes, again, all believable.
I always have this
Speaker: problem in movies
where I'm supposed to care
about someone and I just don't.
And that did not happen in
this movie because of that.
And he did it with one line.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Yes.
There's such.
Yes.
There's a real economy to that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Which is funny because
in some ways it's not an economical
movie that there's so much time
spent in gladiator battles.
Just we're watching guys
do battle with each other.
It's funny.
Maybe that's.
A high level move on, on Scott's part
where he's okay, I'm going to take care of
all the like relationship building stuff
very officially because we need to spend
half this movie in the Coliseum fight.
If so hats off to him.
Well done, Mr.
Scott, because yeah very fun movie.
Really enjoyed it.
It is interesting now to have a face
to attach to the Marcus name, right?
I've only had so far, like the one that's
on the our podcasts little icon on the
app or whatever as a sculptural face of
Marcus, which is pretty similar to what
it looks like in the movie, frankly.
But
Speaker 3: yeah,
Speaker 2: he's awesome.
Yeah, he's the oldest person by far
in the, I guess the other thing, he's
he's oldness incarnate in addition to
being wisdom incarnate in the movie.
Speaker: Yeah.
I don't think wisdom incarnate is
how markets should be perceived.
I think he was like a philosopher king.
And that has pluses and minuses.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And to be, I guess to be fair, I
think we, we see the big we only get
to see one minus in the movie, but
it's the way he's treated his son,
. Which seems like a pretty big minus.
So
Speaker: Yeah, fair enough.
Okay.
And then the other thing that
we wanted to talk about, I know
we're supposed to be reading.
We're not going to read the book today.
It's fine.
We're just going to,
Speaker 2: this is a fun bonus
podcast where we just talk
about stuff related to stoicism.
Speaker: That's right.
Bonus podcast.
Let's talk about Spinoza.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
So we had a fan, believe it or not, a real
fan who is not dating either one of us
or related to either one of us by blood.
Hi Poppy.
We really appreciate you're being a fan.
Send us a very nice email with some
nice thoughts about the podcast.
And we had a nice exchange with her, but
a sort of direction she pointed us in
that she, this, in her case, it came as
the, in the form of here's a book you
guys could consider doing for the next the
next version of this podcast, but as you
can see, We are not making any progress
towards being done with the meditation in
Speaker: six years when we're done.
So
Speaker 2: we thought let's not sit
on her suggestion for six years.
So she said that she had read
Marcus Aurelius's meditation
because her son was a big Roman
history guy and got her to read it.
And she liked it more than she thought.
And it let her down a whole thing.
And eventually the thing that she
read recently that she also was,
had really gotten interested in
was Spinoza and Spinoza's ethics.
So Paul and I true to the nature
of this podcast, since we're not
philosophical or historical experts
on Aurelius are not philosophical
or historical experts on Spinoza.
Not at all.
Paul, I think by chance in Amsterdam
happened to swing by his house.
Oh yeah.
Remember that?
Yeah.
So
Speaker: it was funny because
we were in this first of all,
it looks like any other house.
It just looks exactly the same
as every other house, but it's
like his historical landmark.
Yeah.
And at the time we were we were just
enjoying going to a lot of open houses.
And like shopping around and like taking
a look at what it would be like to
actually buy a spot in the Netherlands.
And it was very funny because it felt
we're like, huh, how much, this is like
a little on the pricey side, because
it just looked like every other house.
It was like, okay, this is a very
historical monument, but very
Dutch of them to underplay it.
Just like a tiny little plaque,
Speaker 2: but as I lived here.
Speaker: But I also lived here.
Yes.
Fun.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Fun that his house is, yes not
a particularly notable home
in Amsterdam other than its
historical significance, obviously.
So what we have done is we watched a
YouTube lecture on, in the same way
that for the very first episode of
this podcast, we watched a Princeton
professor guy named Michael Segre
or something like that give a
little lecture on the meditations.
We watched one of his.
Compatriots give a lecture on the ethics.
Um, Paul did this more recently than
I did it like a couple weeks ago.
So I'm gonna let Paul start with his
thoughts and then hopefully that'll
juice up my memory a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah, can we, so little context,
do you remember the time period that?
Nature was published
or ethics was published
Speaker 2: ethics.
Like
Speaker: fifteens, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
500 years ago.
Long
Speaker: time, a long time after
Marcus, like 1500 years after Marcus.
Much
Speaker 2: closer to us than Marcus.
Speaker: Yeah.
The theme here is that it was written
Ethics is written like a proof basically.
It's like he's a part science.
It's yeah.
Speaker 2: Mathie philosopher who,
yes, wanted to, who said that,
yes, in the modern day, meaning
the 1400s or whatever, yeah.
Philosophy can't just be flowery
prose and like appeals to
whatever, tricky linguistic appeal.
It has to be hard science.
So everything needs to be in the
form of mathematical proof, which
makes it very daunting to readers.
I think,
Speaker: yeah, exactly.
So apparently, so he wrote it that way.
He himself was like part science,
like any Renaissance man, you're like
you're good at 10 different things.
And he was a lens crafter because
he studied lenses and, which is what
Speaker 2: every Renaissance
man, my impression is, was a lens
crafter amongst other things.
What every man back in that era was.
Let's grind lenses.
Yes.
Spent a huge amount of time grinding
glass in order to build lenses.
Yeah.
Speaker: It must have been Tom, just,
okay, sorry for this digression, but
imagine being a rental, like a gentleman
and this, you could do any, you could
like, part of your job is to Go to the
Congo and find new species of insects.
Like you didn't need any dig up
Speaker 2: dinosaur bones.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm rich.
Whatever you feel like doing.
Yes.
Go to go find a penguin.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
Those are all like credible
gentlemanly activities.
Anyway.
So my like horrible distillation
of Spinoza is that he was just
like, God, like he was the
predecessor to God is dead.
Use science and humanity or um, this
concept of like self and frankly, Stoic
belief, like in many ways, very Stoic
beliefs to like, instead of religion.
And so he was at his time, it was
very anti I, at this point for us,
a lot of that sort of, we need to
push back on religion is less dire.
Cause religion isn't as
important a part of our lives.
But at the time for him, I think
it was, so he was like, yeah.
There was this stories of him like
laying in front of the synagogue so that
people who wanted to go and for Sabbath
would have to step over him or whatever.
Speaker 2: In order to symbolically
convey that he how much he disagreed
with what they were doing there.
Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
And his whole thing and like some
of these lines shocked me with
how frankly modern they felt.
He was like, if there is a God.
Somewhere beyond Saturn somewhere
beyond what we know about
him, he's gotta be out there.
Like, why does he care about us?
There's probably so many other
planets with life on them.
Like he literally, like that was the
thing he believed, which is so modern.
It feels like something that
could be said right now.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Yes.
I was impressed by, yes, this, it's
like a, yes, humanistic scientific
thinking what I like about it or
what was striking to me in particular
was how much he was listen, back
when, back in, the early days of
Christianity and Judaism, they needed it.
But now we have science.
And now we, Like we can reason
much more rationally about the
universe, et cetera, et cetera.
But what's so funny to me is I think
when we look back on the kind of science
that was available to them at the 14th
century, the fact that was all the
science they needed for Spinoza to look
at it and be like, yes, this is it.
We don't need that stuff anymore.
Cause we have science now is very funny.
Cause that's that, that feels
like such a modern impulse.
Yeah.
It feels very 20th, 21st century to me to
say, okay, now we have enough science to
forsake this religion stuff or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
I was shocked by how I just I
agree with everything he said.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Oh my gosh.
I've never
Speaker: found a philosopher like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I really liked it.
I think the other thing he does
though, is he says that God.
Like he doesn't actually exactly.
So the way we've described it so far is
this very kind of rationalist, like it's
totally anti spiritual in a way, but I
think he actually doesn't quite do that.
Which is a cool move as well, that he
ends up like the thing that a lot of the
lecture is about how he has this okay.
So I think in a very
technical philosophical move.
He tries to solve the mind body
duality, which I don't totally
understand philosophically, but he like,
Speaker 3: yeah,
Speaker 2: he, he says that there's
just one thing in the world, which and
so whatever that one thing is, like
you, you call it whatever you want,
but his move is, I think that's like
God basically, like the stuff that's
Speaker: so modern.
That's so incredibly
Speaker 2: And also deeply heretical,
the lecturer really loved pointing
out that he got, he managed to get
excommunicated from both Christianity
and Judaism in his lifetime.
But yes I totally agree.
It's a cool thought.
That does this kind of like reorienting
of the, often Christianity and Judaism
and other religions have been used
as stories that explain how it is we
got here and their origin stories for
life and humanity and everything else.
And they're also in some sense
of us to explain why we're here.
And the move that he does is to make
it more about the how or the what, as
opposed to the why, which I think is.
Cool.
And yes, to your point, closer to the,
to a lot of modern secular thinking about
what the nature of the universe is like.
There is some mystical what
that we don't quite know what
it is, and he's calling it God.
We're more satisfied by that than
thinking of God as having been
the what and the why, which is
maybe more kind of religious and
Speaker: old So he basically
uses the word God with a
capital G to refer to Ourselves,
which, which, okay.
So tying it back to Marcus, and I
don't know if this is what poppy meant,
but this certainly stood out to me
is I think Marcus believes this too.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker: Sure.
There's a, there's a bunch of gods that
he supposedly, the, he does use capital
Speaker 2: G gods or whatever to refer to.
He
Speaker: does.
He does
Speaker 2: religious,
Speaker: but I think this is what
he means when he uses capital and
nature or like capital L logos.
I think they're referring to the
same thing, which is just like a set
of moral morals and that, that you
can aspire to and be do the right
thing and that's all that matters.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That's nice.
I really liked that connection.
Yes.
And I think they both have this
sense of reverence for the self and
what a person can be and do too.
Where I think in some ways.
Other philosophies or religions
might minimize individual
people a little bit more.
I think a thing that thinking of us
as made of God or as God or whatever.
And also Marcus his philosophy are very
much about actually you and what you can
do are the only things you should be.
Yeah.
Sort of revering.
Yeah.
And focusing
Speaker: on.
I love that it gives an answer.
The thing that really bugs me about
a lot of this, these philosophers is
that they're just like, things are bad.
I don't like the status quo,
but, and then there's no, and
the, and there's no and then.
Whereas like Spinoza gives an and
then, Marcus gives an and then,
and therefore, there's an answer.
Like you actually know what
you're supposed to do now.
It's not just nihilism.
It's oh, nothing matters.
Okay, fine.
Nothing matters.
But now what?
Yes.
Now what?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yes.
I like that.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Yes.
I was also very charmed
overall by Spinoza's.
Or at least this professor's exposition
of what the ethics are about.
I have to say, as far as reading it as
a book in the style of meditations, I'm
game to take a look, but this professor's
description of what the actual text
is like, the form of the mathematical
proof seems pretty daunting to me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Might not be the best podcast reading,
but we can check it out though.
We'll see.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: we can.
I'm curious.
Yeah.
Any other any other thoughts
about the Spinoza stuff?
I was very charmed by it too.
I guess another thing I
would be interested in maybe.
Is I wonder if, obviously Marcus
has been around for a long time and
influenced a lot of philosophers.
It feels like Spinoza is one of his
antecedents who, yeah, that's right.
I wonder what the set is, who else is
in the club of Oh yeah, these are the
philosophers whose names we know and who
are deeply indebted to stoic philosophy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Cause Spinoza, I
never would have known that.
If we didn't get.
This very nice email, I would never
have been able to know that there was a
through line between those two people.
And it just, it has me curious
now about who else would, who
else belongs to that club?
Speaker: This is going to reveal my deep
naivete with respect to philosophy, but I
almost feel like there's a straight line
between the like Greek philosophers, the
Stoics, and then straight to nihilism,
existentialism, transcendentalism.
They're, they all just
feel like the same thing.
And then there's a weird blip in
the middle, which is like religion,
really like the organized church.
And and that was like, 800 years of
like very, a very different direction.
And then we got back on the same track.
Speaker 2: I say it just, yeah, I
were, yes, we are definitely waiting
and dead, neither of us knows
anything about what we're talking
about territory, but I'll wait in
with you and say, make sense to me.
Yeah.
I see the kind of through line.
You're talking about a little bit
with, not that I know much about
the philosophers in those different
movements, but I, from what I know about
the basics of the bodies of thought,
I can understand that there would be
a progression from one to another.
Speaker: Yeah, outside of the like,
knowing that we're not the center of the
universe and like a few other things.
But I feel like Marcus could have written.
Yeah.
All these things that Spinoza talks about.
Speaker 2: I was having that reaction
to the Spinoza thing too, which was
like having just spent as much time
with Marcus as we have been spending.
It was okay what's the
new Spinoza stuff here.
And there is definitely new Spinoza
stuff, but in this professor's
lecture, I was like, the first half
of the lecture, I was okay, stoicism.
Yeah.
And maybe that's also, cause I'm not a
very discriminating philosophical mind
and I just bucket everything as stoicism.
That's probably a big part of
what's going on, but it took a
while for me to be like, Ooh, okay.
This is new stuff that, that
we haven't talked about.
So much, but
Speaker: yeah,
Speaker 2: so
Speaker: Poppy, thank you
so much for your email.
Yes.
It was lovely to get this additional kind
of insertion of a new idea in the midst.
So thank you.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Yes.
I'm looking forward to having that
as something that's in our toolbox,
so to speak, as we, uh, move the text
reading forward, which we will do.
We're actually close to
being done with book seven.
I know we made no progress towards it,
but we are within striking distance.
So I think.
We are here for resolved to the next time
we record the podcast, make some good
progress towards the end of book seven.
Speaker: We'll just get
right into it next time.
We're just going to be
like, yeah, no chit chat
Speaker 2: this time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: All business next time.
Speaker: How's it going, Tom?
Nope.
I don't care.
Moving on.
Speaker 2: Okay.
That's right.
I'm just going to, you're going
to let me into the zoom room
and I'm going to start reading.
And you can react to it or not,
Speaker: yeah.
Okay.
Perfect.
Perfect.
All right.
Thanks, Tom.
Okay.
Until next time.
Looking
Speaker 2: forward to it.