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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do here,
please give it a thumbs up,
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It really, really helps
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To find out about our certification
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please go to rupertisaacson.com.
So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free.
Ride Free.
I've got Amanda Griffith Atkins,
who is the author of How to
Handle More Than You Can Handle.
I know a lot of us listening
to this will know exactly or
resonate exactly with that title.
I know I do.
Being the father of an autistic son
overwhelm is well, overwhelms are us.
So it's good to be able to talk about
it squarely because then it allows 'em
to think about what might we do how
might we end the feelings of isolation.
Some people feel shame, some people feel
all sorts of things, but I know that.
For me in the early years particularly,
isolation was the thing, because if
you have the kid who's taking a their
clothes off and pooping on the floor of
the supermarket at the checkout counter,
you've sort of avoid going, you know,
and this, you know, begins to snowball.
And there's so many parents out
there in this kind of position.
So this book that Amanda has written
is, is a very valuable thing.
So Amanda, thank you
for coming on the show.
Please tell us, you know, a bit about who
you are and why did you write this book.
Amanda Atkins: Well,
thanks for having me and.
I was listening to your audio book
recently and could just resonate with
so much of what you said about the early
years and, you know, you beautifully
articulated your anger and your rage and
all the complicated feelings that it feels
like good parents aren't allowed to have.
And so, you know, from that sentiment
is sort of where my book was birthed.
I was 26 when I had Asher
Fresh out of grad school.
You know, in hindsight it felt,
feels like I was a baby at the time.
You know, 26, it feels so young to
have this really high needs child.
Had just graduated with my shiny new
master's degree from Northwestern
University and really felt like,
okay, like I'm on top of the world.
You know, I'm at, I'm
ready to start my career.
I've done everything right, I've
checked all the boxes and then
gave birth to a son with a one in
20,000 syndrome, pr, Willy Syndrome.
And this particular syndrome
is all encompassing.
It's cognitive delays, physical delays,
and if you were to Google it, the thing
that you'll read right off the bat
is what's called insatiable hunger.
So meaning the part of his brain
that doesn't re that registers hunger
hypothalamus doesn't work properly for
him, or rather, I should say, the part
of his brain that registers fullness.
So Asher lives with a feeling
of hunger all the time.
Throw in a healthy dose of OCD.
And some pretty intense rigidity and
perseveration and you know, food really
kind of consumes our life, meaning
that a lot of people with PWS, their
families lock up the refrigerator.
You know, things like dog food,
toothpaste, anything remotely edible
can instantly become a threat.
And so, you know, imagine being held,
being handed your, you know, baby and
told that this is the future, right?
And so really early on I felt so
conflicted because I felt like
the expectation was that I should
be the special needs warrior.
You know, I should wear the ribbon of PWS,
I should go to the five Ks I should raise.
Money and just really early on it
felt like I, I felt so resistant to
my identity being taken over by this.
Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: actually
at 26, the irony,
Amanda Atkins: the irony now that
here we are both talking about our,
you know, talking about what it means
to parent child with a disability.
In some ways my identity
has become consumed with it.
Yeah.
But I like to think it's in my own way.
So anyway, so early on I
just felt such resistance to.
I felt that people really did not know how
to respond when I said I was struggling,
when I said we've had a really hard day
or we're any really hard stretch you
know, I'm really struggling emotionally.
People always felt the need to
meet that with, oh, but you guys
are such a parents for Asher.
Or you know, kids are so resilient.
Or, you know, the phrase from the title
of the book, God won't, oh God won't give
you more than you can handle anything
religious, you know, is thrown onto it.
Of course.
And so I sort of felt like this is
actually more than I can handle.
Like, you know, I feel like every part
of my life is being touched by this,
my friendships, my marriage, my career,
my decision to have more children.
All of it feels like it's just
imploding under the pressure
of what, of this experience of
parenting such a high need child.
And so, I felt like there needed to be
space for parents and caregivers to talk
about how hard this is in a way that,
that, that, you don't have to throw
the caveat, but I really love my child.
Right.
Because of course I love my child.
Like of course I love
him exactly as he is.
But would I change it?
If I could, I might, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And I feel like there's, there's
not a lot of room for us to say
that as parents, so that the book
kind of came outta that place.
And I really felt the need to touch
on our, our identity as parents, and
that we're allowed to have an identity
that's more than just a caretaker.
Because I feel like a lot of parents
really struggle to pursue anything other
than anything that involves their child.
And I just wanna, I want parents to
know that like, number one, your life's
not over, but you have to work at it.
You have to work at it, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you are a,
you're a family therapist, um mm-hmm.
And you've got a pretty I.
Burgeoning practice.
Were you, was that as a result of becoming
a special needs mom or were you already
heading for that route before you, like,
was that what you were gonna be anyway?
Amanda Atkins: Well, that's a good
question because I think in some ways
my career is a constant, like urged to
like overcompensate for the lost time.
Like, it almost feels like, you
know, there was a moment where I
was like, oh, I'm never gonna work.
Like I'm gonna be a stay
at home parent forever.
This isn't what, you know, I, I, I, I
got this training, I'm really passionate
about being a therapist, but I was
a stay at home mom for three years.
So not, not an incredibly long time, but
long enough in the beginning to where it
felt like I'm really behind in my career.
And so I think once I was able to kind
of get my feet under me, I really felt
like, wow, I really wanna run with this.
I really want to grow this practice.
So, I wouldn't say it was necessarily.
A result of having a
child with a disability.
But it kind of, I realized
I wanted to have career.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But it wasn't where you were going
after grad school before you had Asha.
Amanda Atkins: No, no, no, no.
Yeah, yeah.
What, so what, what
Rupert Isaacson: were you,
what were you hoping to be?
What, what was, what did you come at?
What was your master
Amanda Atkins: degree?
Well, well, well, I was in grad school,
aft I was, I, I was going to be a
therapist by the time Asher was born.
I knew I wanted to be a therapist, but I
don't think that I ever saw myself in this
niche of, like, working with caregivers.
That's for sure.
You know, I've always
had an interest in grief.
That's always been kind
of my primary interest.
So why, why,
Rupert Isaacson: why is
that been in your interest?
Amanda Atkins: I think there's something
there about how this, something can
happen to you and it never goes away.
Like it changes you forever.
You know, grief is something that
we're all gonna experience, whether,
like I'm talking about grief from
like, the death of a loved one.
Mm-hmm.
It's something that's
gonna happen to all of us.
So it's not unique to you or to me, but
it's something that's so life changing.
Mm.
There's no way to like get
out of it easily, I guess.
And that, that's always struck me because
it's like none of us are immune to it.
And it's just something that's so
profoundly impactful to all of us.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
But when I was at university, I wasn't
thinking about doing anything like that.
Why do you think as a young woman at
late adolescent woman, why were you,
was there, was there a family story that
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
So what, what, what?
You're so interested in grief.
Yeah.
See,
Amanda Atkins: you could be a therapist.
Okay.
You're good at this.
Alright.
So when I was in high school, I.
My best friend though, there's
a big group of us that were
all hanging out at the lake.
And my best friend at the time, her
boyfriend, said he wasn't feeling well.
So he went into the bathroom
and he ended up collapsing.
And we were 16 years old.
9 1 1 was called, bunch of my
friends were trying to give CPR and
everything, and he ended up basically,
he had an asthma attack and he died.
And it was this just insane
experience of being like, oh my gosh,
someone's alive to someone's dead.
And, and I was her best friend.
And so I was in this position of like.
Caretaking for her listening to her.
I mean, I went home with her that
night and I remember like put
putting pictures of him upside down.
She asked me to do it.
And so I just sort of like got
put in this almost like therapist
role of caretaking mm-hmm.
For my best friend right
after her boyfriend died.
And just kind of walking through
that grief process with her
made me really not afraid of it.
I mean, mean not afraid of grieving
people and feeling like I could sort
of walk into that experience of someone
who had experienced this big loss.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Yeah.
How did she, I presume because she
was quite young and they had not been
together very long, I should imagine
that a certain point she did move on.
Amanda Atkins: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you know
why though, in that case did
you think it stayed with you?
What made you think Yeah, you know,
I kind of want to pursue a career.
Amanda Atkins: I think I just
felt so comfortable with it.
I, I noticed a lot of other people weren't
quite sure the right thing to say to
her or maybe didn't bring it up at all.
And I never felt scared of the
topic of talking about pain.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Amanda Atkins: I guess it felt
very comfortable to me and I'd
never, I never was afraid of it.
Rupert Isaacson: Was that, talk
to me about your own family
background, your parents.
Were they people who would
talk very openly about this
sort of thing, for example?
Amanda Atkins: No, that's the irony
of just me being a therapist is that I
come from a family that it uses humor.
It's all humor.
It's all crude humor,
you know, like it's fun.
Oh, it fit right
in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's great.
It's a great, it's a such a fun family,
but when it comes to vulnerability
or more tender or raw emotions,
there's no expression of it at all.
And so I, I, I almost feel like,
I don't know, it almost felt.
I was so needed an outlet to face hard
feelings and discomfort that I like maybe
looked for in other, or, or I don't know
if I looked for it in other people, but
it, I wanted to give a voice to it because
it was something in my family of origin
that was never like freely talked about.
I,
Rupert Isaacson: and was it something
that needed to be talked about?
Like there were all these elephants
in the room, or Not even with not,
Amanda Atkins: it was just
more subtle than that.
That's like my family is, it's the kind,
even like in writing a book, right?
Like my pa my parents, they're still
married you know, in their seventies.
They listened to the audiobook
and they were like, what?
We're really proud of you.
I was like, that's probably the first
time I've ever heard we're proud of you.
Or That's great, because
Rupert Isaacson: I've
never heard it from my
Amanda Atkins: parents.
Yeah.
Well it took, yeah.
And you've written a book too.
Come on.
What more can we do that's not fair.
Yeah, so I mean, it, that's, that's it.
There's no, you know, there's no.
Every now and again, they'll
say, how many copies?
My mom said, how many
copies have you sold?
I told her and she said, that's it.
Rupert Isaacson: My answer to
that is always both of them.
Amanda Atkins: Okay, good.
Okay.
I'm gonna use that from now on.
I'm gonna use that.
So, you know, it's just, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't exactly know.
My, my mom's mom had a disability,
she had a limb difference, Uhhuh, and
so I sort of have the, and that was
like in the fifties, and so, okay.
I have this, she only,
so she only had one arm.
Ah, and I, I, I contribute some of my
mom's discomfort about talking about
hard things as I wonder if her mom
really modeled, like, we don't talk
about differences, you know, just.
Get back on the horse,
buck up, like, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: that would seem
likely from that generation, right?
Yeah.
In the
Amanda Atkins: fifties, it's
like, yeah, I have a difference.
Yes, I could wallow in it, but I'm not
going to, we just gotta keep going.
So I think that's probably messaging
that was passed down through the years.
You know, my dad was in the Vietnam
War, his family was really poor.
Lots of, you know, it's, it's just like
lots of messaging around like, what,
what does it really mean to suffer?
What, what is worth talking about?
And suffering.
Like surely feelings suffering and your
feelings, it's like not that important
when it's like there's much other things.
Rupert Isaacson: It is interesting
though that the generations that
came through the Depression in World
War ii they had to simply cope.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: In a way that
I think is unimaginable for Yes.
Our generation.
And I would posit that that kind of.
Jocular Stoicism was
probably the best tool.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because when you're
dealing with, I mean, obviously the
experience of World War ii, for example,
for the Americans, was very different
to the Europeans in that it wasn't as,
you know, it didn't impact civilians
except for the fact that their, you
know, their, their boys were killed.
But the cities were not being destroyed.
Women were not being raped.
You know, Bayview were not being
bayonetted like within America.
Mm-hmm.
That of course, all
happened in, in, in Europe.
But
I do have a great respect, I
think, for the place of that kind
of joo stoicism because I think
it does also build resilience.
And I, you know, it's a, it's becoming
so cliched at the moment, but I think
that, I don't think I observe that, the
current, younger, young adult generation
is less resilient palpably than mine was.
And I'm half a, you know, I'm, I'm
probably half a generation on from you.
So it seems that there's been a
kind of diminishment of resilience.
So I have really mixed feelings about
the let's talk it all out thing.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I can see
I'm absolutely can see both points of
view, so I end up doing both, you know?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And as you say, you
know, I wrote a couple of books about
my own experience and definitely
put my own feelings in there.
And at the same time, there's an
awful lot of toilet humor, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because that's what gets you through.
Amanda Atkins: I agree.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, the, the toilet
humor actually got us up the mountain.
You know, to the shaman in
Siberia when nothing else.
Yeah.
You know, that's right.
Gods of humor.
That's right.
Toilet humor saved us.
And actually when we are, I'm doing
trainings for our therapeutic approaches.
I actually school people in toilet
humor for very specific reasons because
you know, a lot of the kids who we are
dealing with are what I call therapy out.
You know, if you, if you are a, a child
and you're being told every day for
your whole childhood, basically you need
therapy, you are bas you're just getting
a message saying you're not Right.
Yeah.
And this erodes yourself respect.
And the only way you can reestablish
your self-respect if you've lost it,
is some sort of act of rebellion.
Mm-hmm.
And of course, toilet humor is by
its very nature and act of rebellion.
So the moment you start talking about poo.
You give a safe outlet
for this person to rebel.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So there's a
restoration of self-respect.
And then of course we're using it in
the educational context so you can teach
all the natural sciences through poop.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
You know, that's okay.
And I'll never resist
Rupert Isaacson: anything.
And, and it's funny, I mean, and
if you pretend it's not funny, then
the child, particularly kids, will
know that you're full of that thing
that you're saying is not funny.
Amanda Atkins: Uhhuh
Rupert Isaacson: So, so true.
It's God's free joke.
Stuff that comes out of your ass is funny.
It just is.
You know, there's,
there's no way around it.
So, but at the same time, you
know, you're absolutely right that
things, there is also a point at
which things must be addressed.
And it, what one is looking
for is, is that happy medium.
Yeah.
So in your book, you know, how, how
are you treading and your approach
as a therapist, how are you treading
the line of that happy medium?
Because Yeah.
It's tempting to go all
out into a woe is me fest.
Yeah.
And there are sometimes when one needs
to put a tear in your beer kind of thing.
Right.
Amanda Atkins: But
Rupert Isaacson: what, talk to us
about how you help people find that
middle line if indeed you do, or you
know, and if you don't, what do you do?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I think humor
is a huge part of my work often,
you know, and I think that's it.
It is so helpful.
You know, you sit down with somebody who's
maybe very nervous or they have a lot of
emotion, they're feeling really sad and.
Humor just instantly lightens the energy.
Yeah.
It just instantly puts them at ease.
It's medicine and shows them it is,
and shows them that I'm a real person.
Mm.
You know, like I, you know, I'm
not judging them or we have to
find light in these situations.
Right.
Even on the hardest
day, don't laugh, you'll
Rupert Isaacson: cry.
Love in it.
That's the Exactly.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: I, and I always
know I'm really in trouble when I
sit down with a client that I feel
like can't access humor when I feel
like they're totally stuck Yeah.
In the sadness.
And that does happen once in a while,
and I feel very outta my element.
That's when I'm like, okay, we
gotta think bigger picture here.
Like, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: do you
automatically start making poo jokes?
Amanda Atkins: I, I, something, anything.
Yeah.
I just, and if, if they
don't take the bait, I'm just
like, oh no, I'm in trouble.
What am I gonna do here?
But, you know.
Yeah.
Because usually you just feel a lightness
when you make a joke and somebody.
You know, whether it's a
little self-deprecating or
whatever it is, it, it just
Rupert Isaacson: helps.
Well, it's also bonding, right?
You know, it, it bonding.
Exactly.
It's the common humanity thing.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
Let's, let's go through this together.
Yeah.
I just wanna ask you a couple
of questions about Asha.
That, so how's he doing now?
You told me he's 16.
Yeah.
I, I know various people with
Pril, so I know that it can
Amanda Atkins: Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I know that
it can present quite differently.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
How's it presented with him
Amanda Atkins: overall?
He really is doing well.
He's you know, he's a happy kid.
He's in real, in good
health for the most part.
He's active for, the biggest thing that
we struggle with it is like, sort of like
obsessions and schedule and perseveration
and like, you know, that kind of thing.
So it's really difficult.
Like this past we were
visiting, can you find
Rupert Isaacson: perseveration
for those listeners?
Yeah.
So like,
Amanda Atkins: yep.
So basically like.
Focusing on the same thing
over and over and over.
Yeah.
So for him it's always into the loop.
Yeah,
exactly.
It's like schedule or like,
you know, there's certain
podcasts he likes to listen to.
Like, the new podcast come out today,
I have to listen to it right now.
Or, you know, like just things
that are like part of his routine
and if there's any deviation from
it, we're kind of in trouble.
So it's really hard for
our family to be flexible.
Vacations are really hard.
We do it, but it's, it is, everything's
loaded and difficult, so, yeah.
But on the whole, he
really is doing quite well.
He, he can read, he can write,
he's, you know, he is verbal.
He's just Asher.
Rupert Isaacson: How, how is he presenting
when it comes to the eating disorder?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, the
food thing is tricky.
He definitely, the, one of the
tricky things about Asher is he's.
He's tall and he's quite thin.
He's like five foot seven
and he is like 115 pounds.
Okay, so people don't necess.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So he's very thin.
Thin.
So he's not presenting as obese at all?
Amanda Atkins: He's not, he's not.
And you know, we've known about
his diagnosis and is that, and that
Rupert Isaacson: because you are
controlling things quite tightly?
Yes,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
And since he, since the day
we got his diagnosis, we've
had a tight control on it.
It's tricky because other
people look at that and they
think, oh, like he, you know,
yeah,
he can eat whatever and, but the
reason he is that size is because
we've worked hard to keep him that way.
So he will, he will sneak food.
He definitely will.
You know, if there's, if there's
something that he wants, he,
he will try and sneak it.
He can eat a lot at one time.
So it's just like a constant.
Rupert Isaacson: What about the
dangerous stuff though, like,
medications, toothpaste, you
know, he really is good with that.
Amanda Atkins: The only thing
that you kind of have to
watch him with is toothpaste.
He does like to eat, is, he likes to
eat toothpaste if you don't watch him.
But other than that, he is.
Safe for the, yeah, it just gotta
keep an eye on him kind of thing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think, why
do you think his eating has been more
manageable for you guys and for him?
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea,
and I would never even begin to
assume it's anything I've done.
I really don't.
I think it's genetic.
I think there's like so much genetic,
just stuff about PWS that we don't,
I even feel like, I've told my
husband this before, like, I don't
even think hunger is the right word.
I think it's an obsession.
I don't, I think hunger is not the
right category for what they feel.
I think it's perseveration obsession.
I could be wrong.
Mm-hmm.
You know, other PWS families might
disagree, but with me it azure's not,
it's like Azure has a fixation on it,
but he has a fixation on a lot of things.
Rupert Isaacson: Sense.
What are his fixations?
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.
Like certain TV shows
that he's obsessed with.
The bus, he loves riding the
bus to school every morning.
Like what time times, what
time is the bus coming?
What time is this?
What time is this?
Very schedule oriented.
Do I have speech therapy tomorrow night?
Yeah.
That kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: What I, that,
that I, sure I get, but I'm,
I'm going more for what, what's,
what is passionate interests?
What are the things that, oh, passionate
Amanda Atkins: interests.
He loves Zoom calls.
Like, you know, he loves scheduling
Zoom calls and doing them.
Honestly, that's probably his.
He has these two friends,
Clara and Elle course.
They're like girls.
And he loves doing Zoom calls.
That's his favorite thing, to send them
the link and then have them get on it.
And then just, and
Rupert Isaacson: are they,
are they special needs as well
or are they No, they're not.
Amanda Atkins: They're neurotypical.
Rupert Isaacson: And then will he
talk once he's on the call with them,
will he talk over and over about the
same thing, or is it actually pretty
much a back and forth conversation?
Will he ask about them or
is he talking about himself?
Amanda Atkins: I'm really trying
to get him every time we do a Zoom
saying, Hey, let's come up with three
questions we can ask ahead of time.
Because it's otherwise, it's
really is just kind of one way.
And I like the, like social,
like butterfly in me just
wants to be like, do it.
But then I'm trying to
be like, he loves it.
Let him do his thing.
It's okay.
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: And when he's talking
to these girls about himself Yeah.
What, what is he relating,
what's he talking about?
Amanda Atkins: He's saying like, have
you ever seen the show Big Bang Theory
Rupert Isaacson: Y?
No, but I have seen Young Sheldon, so,
Amanda Atkins: oh, it's Young Sheldon.
That's the show I'm talking about.
Oh my gosh.
Asher is, I was gonna
say it's the spinoff.
Most people don't know young Sheldon.
Yeah.
Asher is obsessed with young Sheldon.
It's like, okay,
Rupert Isaacson: well that's kind
of a good thing to be obsessed by.
Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: it is.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
So he watches it, well, it's over now,
but he watched it, you know, and he
watches reruns and now he watches the
George and Mandy the like spinoff of it.
There's like another spinoff of
young Sheldon that he watches.
And so he, one of his friends has
also started watching the show.
So that's what they talk about.
Rupert Isaacson: Who
were George and Mandy on?
Young Sheldon George
Amanda Atkins: and Mandy
is, it's Sheldon's brother.
Okay.
The,
Rupert Isaacson: the rocket
brother and the girlfriend Mandy.
Okay.
Ah, okay.
Yeah.
Alright.
Who's now
Amanda Atkins: a spinoff?
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
I could see that though.
'cause we went through, like as
a family this summer, a whole
like two months of watching Young
Sheldon and I was watching it with
my two younger kids and they, yeah.
They were learning so much about
American life through that show.
Amanda Atkins: Oh really?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So I, you know, oh.
'cause
Amanda Atkins: it's like,
yeah, that shows to me that,
Rupert Isaacson: that Asha
has quite good discernment.
Yeah, because it's a
very philosophical show.
Yes.
Does he get that he sort
of is young children?
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.
That's what I've always wondered.
I'm like, is that why he's drawn to it?
Because Sheldon, you know, I don't know.
He
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't,
he doesn't articulate that.
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't
seem to articulate it, but
I do wonder that as well.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then how did he make
these two friends, these two girlfriends,
Amanda Atkins: they're friends from
grade school and they've just you know,
there was like a, like a Best Buddies
program, so like where the regular
ed kids were connected with the kids
in special ed and they just connected
through that and he stayed in touch.
They go to different schools now,
but they, they've all stayed in
touch and they just really sweet.
Yeah, they're super sweet girls.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: That's unusual.
Yeah.
'cause my son, when he went off to high
school, you know, we, we homeschooled for
about 10 years and then he went off for
his last two, three years into high school
and there was a Best Buddies program.
But I wouldn't say that the people
who were in that really, I mean,
how could they follow through?
They were young as well.
Right, right.
You would said he wouldn't put
any judgements on that, but I'm
impressed that these, yeah, so
he must have a lot of charm.
Amanda Atkins: He really
does have a lot of charm.
And he's very, he's funny.
He's super funny.
He has a great sense of humor.
He's a funny, can you gimme an
Rupert Isaacson: example?
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.
It's all gonna be so embarrassing to me
because it's all directed towards me.
But like yesterday we were, we were out
somewhere and he saw, and we were with a
big group of people and he saw Chipotle,
you know the restaurant Chipotle?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he looks at me and we're
with this big group pee.
And he goes, mom, whenever you eat
Chipotle, you fart in front of this big.
And then he's laughing and pointing
at me, and I'm just like, Asher,
can you, like, we're in p Can you,
you know, like he just knows how to
like, make fun of me and loves like,
kind of like the, you know, like,
yeah, mom makes you fart, doesn't it?
Like, it's just like, oh,
why did I ever tell you that?
Rupert Isaacson: But that means that
the autistic side of his Prada vili,
because again, for those listeners
and viewers who don't know Prada
Vili, it comes with cognitive yep.
Let's say deficits as well.
But these are on a huge spectrum.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And, but if he is making
those jokes at your expense, that shows
that he has a sense of perspective,
theory of mind and irony, which is
putting him like way on the upper scale.
That's
Amanda Atkins: right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: that's such a good point.
If you
Rupert Isaacson: get, if a kid, if
somebody teases you, it means that they
have gone through that crucial milestone
of theory of mind and false belief.
And again, for listeners who don't know
that what that is is this is, and this
is a bit of a holy grail if you're sort
of an autism parent that in neurotypical
kids, somewhere around two and a half to
three, let's say your kid is loves horses
and is looking at a magazine with a horse
picture and it goes, look, mommy a horsey.
And they hold it up, but
they're looking at it.
They sort of think you can see what
they see even though they can't.
And then somewhere around
two and a half to three.
The brain will go through this
development called theory of Mind and
false Belief where they'll turn it
around and go, look, mommy a horsey.
They know that you see something
different to what they see.
And we, in the work that we do with Horse
Boy Method and Movement Method, have all
these methods for kind of kick starting
theory of mind because we've realized that
if you can help someone who is challenged
with that, through that milestone, then
the neuroplasticity really opens up and
their brain kind of starts to kind of
get more and more neurotypical esque.
And it sounds like you are, even if
they've had quite a, quite a severe
start, nonverbal, all of that.
So it, it sounds like Asher's
really gone through that.
Was there a time when he
didn't have that, do you think?
Can you discern when that shift happened?
Amanda Atkins: It feels like, you
know, it took him a long time to be.
He has, he also has apraxia of
speech, so there's a lot of like
speech stuff going on with him.
And.
I think some of it was when he was able to
actually art, like the difference of when
he could articulate words versus when he
couldn't, you know, I feel like he wasn't
really able to talk to where we could
understand him until maybe five or six.
And then probably like 7, 8,
9, he started to be able to put
together a few more complex ideas.
He's always been a funny kid that, that,
that likes humor and likes teasing.
I would say even before he wa
he was very playful and liked
to tease and that kind of thing.
And probably 'cause it's a lot of,
you know, our energy in the house.
We ha we have a very
silly, funny household.
But I feel like maybe when, let's say
when he was probably nine or 10, I would
say maybe he was able to start like
making more like directed kind of like
jokes and teasing and that kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm thinking about the proud of
Willie Kidd that I know best.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
He
Rupert Isaacson: is a, a, a
child in Germany actually.
And I met him when he was four.
And he had the, he had quite a
severely autistic presentation,
like Asher, he wasn't fat.
He
Amanda Atkins: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: he was quite skinny kid,
productive, two tall, skinny parents.
However, they also, like you were
saying, manage it very, very carefully.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's very tough
in, in Germany 'cause Germany's
a, a very sugar friendly culture.
Amanda Atkins: Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: baked goods and
that sort of, and it's a way that
people show love and affection.
It's by giving.
That's right.
So it's, it's very tough.
And he's had a very tough time
in school and so on, but I was
doing equine therapy with him and
he was heading for hospital to.
Have his hips opened up.
Mm-hmm.
He had, yeah.
Again, for those listeners that are
unfamiliar, there can be all these
physical things that go with Prada
as well, including sort of very
tight mouthful, hips, et cetera.
And he threw all the time on the
horse didn't need the surgery.
And the doctor's like, what,
what are you guys doing?
Something's you've done something.
And they said, well, we've
been doing this horse thing.
And well, it, it worked for him.
And because he could then hang out at
the barn, there were other kids and
he went from being a very isolated
kid to a somewhat socialized kid.
And now the last time I met him,
I was like, wow, you are, wow.
You're actually really doing quite well.
And he was starting to do that.
He's, he's, he's about 10 now.
11.
Okay.
Also starting to tease me a bit and
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I was like,
Ooh, this is a good sign.
Amanda Atkins: I love that.
So
Rupert Isaacson: would you say,
you know, I, I've, I've, I've read.
Some of those parts of your book where
you talk about the early overwhelm
because he was very premature.
Mm-hmm.
You know, he was in the ICU, you
were disenfranchised as a mum because
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you
couldn't care for your kid.
You didn't know if he was gonna make it.
Then he makes it, but now he's got
this fucking thing and you realize
this thing is gonna put a boot
through your forehead, you know?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And your husband's
forehead and everything else.
Do you still feel that sense,
same sense of overwhelm?
Or are you through that, do you think?
Or do you think
Amanda Atkins: I think I through it.
I really do think I'm
through it at this point.
I mean, it comes and goes, right?
Like there's different, I have
different levels of fear, you know,
I think about the future, like what's
the future gonna look like for him?
Yeah.
What's it gonna look like for our family?
But I do have a more of a sense of
like, stability now than I used to.
Like I, I feel, and maybe it's because
I'm rooted in my career and who I
am, you know, I'm not, I'm not in my
twenties now, I'm in my forties now.
You know, it feels more, I feel
more rooted as a person as well.
And have seen a little bit how
life has shaken out a little bit.
You know, there's still
lots of unknowns, but
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think
will be his future long term?
Amanda Atkins: I do
think after you are dead,
Rupert Isaacson: basically.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think our, the plan is to, to
have him in, in a residential home.
Maybe to start a residential
home for some people with PWS.
Yeah.
I think that's sort of where,
that would be the ideal.
There's enough people in the Chicago
community with kids about Asher's age that
will need more, to be perfectly honest.
Rupert Isaacson: You're
gonna have to do that.
Amanda Atkins: That's
seems what it seems like.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And do you, do you feel a
sense of relief that he now has siblings?
Amanda Atkins: I do, but also
I'm so hyper aware of not putting
expectations that like I don't
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But so worry about that.
If he didn't have 'em, he'd be Yes.
All by himself.
Yes.
And yes.
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: De if he's
got people who've got his back,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
De
Rupert Isaacson: This does make a
huge difference, you know, I asked
these questions because these were
the things that went through my mind
and when my son was, you know, right
up until 13, he didn't have siblings.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And this
kept me awake at night.
Amanda Atkins: So are his
siblings full siblings?
Or half?
Rupert Isaacson: No,
they're half siblings.
Did that
Amanda Atkins: bother you at all or
did that feel any different way or No?
Rupert Isaacson: No.
No.
And in fact, in some ways it
worked out beautifully because we
couldn't have coped his mom and I
in those early years because his.
Anyway, we were later parents, so
she wasn't gonna have another child.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it was so severe, it
was so all encompassing that we couldn't
have, we just couldn't have done it.
Yeah.
So, then when he ended up with
siblings at 13, there was this part
of me that went, oh, that's beautiful
because he's had his childhood.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, now
he will have siblings who are
like half a generation younger.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
So when
Rupert Isaacson: he's 80, they'll be 65.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Right.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: that's, that
does give me a sense of Wow.
Yeah.
After I die there will be
people who have the stamina.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, that's right.
No,
Rupert Isaacson: I mean,
he's very, very independent.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, he
Rupert Isaacson: just sold his
house last year and he got his own.
Oh,
Amanda Atkins: that's awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: He lives between
Europe and America and he has three
jobs and he, you know, but he's still
very, very vulnerable in many ways.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: He's someone that
does rely upon community support.
But when I was also, you know, you
said he'll probably go into group home
and then from there you went, we'll
probably have to do the group home.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I got, so what
I often advise people on when I'm
consulting with people on special needs
staff is saying you are either going to
be a service user or a service provider.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
You're
Rupert Isaacson: either going
to be a consumer of services
or you're going to mm-hmm.
Learn how to be the service.
Mm-hmm.
But you will be in that sphere.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's up to
you which one is it going to be?
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And for some people, they
definitely would rather be a service user.
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe it's 'cause I'm a
control freak, but if there's a service,
I want to be the service, you know?
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Same.
Rupert Isaacson: So the, the, within
this world of horse boy movement
method, there's many parents like me
and like you who have done just that.
Yeah.
And we are a whole network and each of us
does it rather differently because each
of our children was a different context.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But we all help
each other and are part of an
organization that can source funding
and that sort of, but this has all
happened organically over 15 years.
Of course, because Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: because they had to.
Right?
Because it had to.
Because they had to, to,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
So what are your plans?
What do you envisage this home,
this community looking like and
what's gonna be your role and
what's gonna be your husband's?
I haven't even asked you about
your husband does, by the way.
What does he do and Yeah,
Amanda Atkins: he is an
accountant, so, okay.
Money Sandy.
Which is great.
Yeah.
So can do,
Rupert Isaacson: you can
Amanda Atkins: do all the,
the total opposite of that.
Yes.
Yeah.
I like to spend and I
like feelings, so Yeah.
So it works
because you not like feeling Right.
Exactly.
It's a win-win.
I dunno, I think for me the biggest
thing is just simply safety.
Safety and like friendship.
Like that's all I want him to have,
you know, that's feel what feels
most important to me with him.
And so food safety of course feels
important and I don't think you can find
that in your average residential home.
It's just such a unique thing to
PWS that it feels like that would
have to be such a specialty of it.
But, you know, it's important
to me that he gets outside.
It's important to me that he's
moving his body, that he's around
other people that care for him.
Rupert Isaacson: Are you looking,
are you looking at precedent?
Are you looking at
examples of other places?
Amanda Atkins: Not yet.
Should I be?
I should be, huh?
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
You definitely
Amanda Atkins: should be.
Rupert Isaacson: But make it fun.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I
could point you to some.
Okay.
And actually, if anyone is listening,
who's in this sort of position, one
of the first things which I would
really encourage people to look
at other Camp Hill communities.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So Camp Hill is one
word, and they've been around for about
a hundred years, since the twenties.
But they're in, they're
all over the world.
I think they're in 40 countries or more.
And they are Steiner inspired.
If people know who Rudolph Steiner was,
people have heard of Waldo schools.
He was the guy that came
up with Waldo schools.
He was also the guy that came up
with a, an early form of organic
farming which is big in Germany.
He came up with many cool things, but
he's mostly known for the Waldorf schools.
But Camp Hill was sort of, inspired by
his approach, but people with special
needs living in rural communities that are
safe havens and have their own economy.
And when I was sort of looking at
the early stages of Horse Boy and
knowing that some of these people
who I was training were gonna end up
doing residential places, I often look
to that as a sort of a good working
model that stood the test of time.
And my, that was gonna be my, my
next question is, are you envisaging
something that is rural or urban?
Amanda Atkins: Well, you know, I live
in such an urban area in Chicago,
so I do feel urban because I want
it to be somewhat close to me.
Spots.
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Amanda Atkins: if, if the
listener could see your face.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well they will.
'cause it's on YouTube too.
There you go.
So warn you put some clothes on right.
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,
either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
Grandin and see what results can follow.
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
com Sign up as a gold member.
Take the online movement method course.
It's in 40 countries.
Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.
Things tend to go better
if they're in the country.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because nature
is the habitat that the human
organism is supposed to be in.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So when you have a
human organism that is impacted and
requires easily, easily thrown off the
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Off
Rupert Isaacson: kilter, the fewer bad
sensory triggers you can have, the better.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: then of
course there's vulnerability.
You know, cities are dangerous
places on human terms.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And, so I
definitely favor the rural.
And then the other thing is, of course
you have cross species stuff as well, so
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: People are always
happier actually when they're surrounded
by animals and plants because mm-hmm.
That is again, what our species
are supposed to do right.
And as you know, sort of cities are
somewhat adult playgrounds, um mm-hmm.
But they're redesigned for
neurotypical a adults with careers.
Amanda Atkins: True.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know,
for kids or for people with special
needs or whatever, you know,
they, they often don't go so well.
But that doesn't mean that you necessarily
have to live in that community, but
you might be its director, you know.
Amanda Atkins: Right, right, right, right.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's, you know, the
reason listeners why we met is through our
mutual friendly Leanna Tank who's been on
the show's, who's one of my great heroes.
Mm-hmm.
And Leanna works in the group homes of.
Michigan with a criminally
insane population, you know?
Yeah.
And really knows how the nervous system
in the brain really work together.
And what sort of, what
works and what doesn't.
But, you know, I know we strayed a
bit from your book, but the, this
type of conversation for any parent
who's got special needs, these are
the conversations one has to have.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And when I feel
that we are dealing with how do
we handle more than we can handle
it's by coming up with solutions.
That's right.
You know, there, there is this kind
of thing within therapy of saying,
well, don't go into fix it mode.
You know, just.
Tell me, you know, how hard
it's, but I can't do that.
My That's right.
Genetic is about fixing.
And I, I've been in that situation.
People say, well just sit with
your feelings for a while.
I'm like, no, I'm gonna go out there.
And, and that is how I sit
with my feelings, please.
Well, and maybe, yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
And maybe, maybe you take action first
and then you can reflect on your feelings.
Yeah, exactly.
That is probably more the
reflection there somewhere.
Yeah.
But the action has to be there too.
We have to, right.
Rupert Isaacson: And I feel if I
don't start with action, then I am
much more vulnerable to despair.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But I do know
that not everyone is like me.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, I
dunno if you ever saw that.
There was a really funny skit came
out about 10 or 15 years ago, and
it's a boyfriend and a girlfriend and.
She's saying, I've got these
headaches, and she's got this nail
sticking out of the front of her head.
And her boyfriend says,
well, you've got a nail.
Don't, don't try to fix it.
Don't try to just, you know,
I just need you to be with me.
I just need, and he's
like, completely confused.
And then he gets it.
He says, oh, that must be very hard.
And she goes, and she
goes, yes, thank you.
Yes it is.
Yes it is.
And then she turns ahead because she
bangs the nail on the thing goes, ow, ow.
He goes, well, I could just say no.
Stop trying to fix it.
It's so good.
But you, how do you dance that dance?
Because, you know, you, you
are, there's, you personally.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
You
Rupert Isaacson: writing that book
to some degree is taking action.
You becoming a therapist
was taking action, right?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk, just talk
to me about your relationship with.
Action versus sitting with feelings.
And how, how, how's that played
out for you and and how's it
played out for your husband?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I, I mean, I'm,
I'm a very action oriented person.
You're right.
Like writing the book came from
a place of being like, I feel
like I have to do something.
And everybody has like a different
degree of how comfortable they feel.
Expressing emotion.
Acknowledging emotion, you know,
like how you even started off
our talk today, like asking about
almost like my, my family of origin.
Like, you know, what is, how
were you taught to feel feelings?
Were you taught to feel feelings?
Mm-hmm.
You know, were you taught that certain
feelings were safe and acceptable
and certain feelings weren't?
And you know, I think that's
the starting point for me.
You know, you said you start with action.
I tend to start with feelings
first, understand what I'm feeling.
And it, for me, an
emotion is almost like a.
It's almost like a sixth sense to me.
Like an emotion helps inform me
on what action I need to take.
Not everybody's wired that way, but for
me, if I'm feeling anger about something,
that's generally a sign that something
feels unjust or that I feel wronged.
And so that usually means I need to
do something to whether I need to
talk to somebody or do something.
Or maybe I just need to chill and,
you know, process it a little bit.
But oftentimes my emotions
are like leaders for me.
Maybe that's a, maybe that's not
such a good thing, but, but it is.
And I try to have sound mind when I'm
making decisions about things, but I'm
definitely an action oriented person,
but I tend to, my feelings tend to lead
me or at least be more of a sixth sense
to tell me what action I need to take.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And I, I would say that's fair.
To be honest.
I'd, I'd say that that is me too.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's,
it.
I, I feel that once I've identified
them, I want to, I want to do,
because that in itself is therapeutic.
Definitely is healing.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
That makes sense.
That I definitely, I feel the same way.
And sometimes doing just means
going for a walk, going for a run.
Yeah.
Like sometimes doing doesn't mean, you
know, action, like advocacy, doing.
So sometimes it's just like,
what do I need in, in the realm
of like, whether it's self care,
just simply like living, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
It's interesting.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I, I asked about
your son's passionate interests.
I feel that when you're a
special needs parent, you
really need to look at your own.
Yes.
'cause they will get you through.
Obviously I like horses.
So mm-hmm.
If you put me around ponies, I tend to not
dwell on myself and just get rid of pony.
That is therapeutic.
Everyone hopefully has their thing.
But to prioritize that thing, I feel
is of paramount importance when you are
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Being
called upon to find resources
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Greater than the norm.
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Atkins: Because
Rupert Isaacson: some, you've got to
draw on those resources from somewhere.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
What is,
Rupert Isaacson: what is putting
those resources into you?
What puts the resources
into you as, as a mom?
What, what are your passionate interests?
Amanda Atkins: Well, I also love horses.
Not as much, not I, not as, I'm
not as involved as you are, but
I do, you know, if I can ever
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
Amanda Atkins: I do love
a horse with people.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Whenever I, whenever I, you know,
living in the city, I have to drive
a little bit to be around a horse.
So
Rupert Isaacson: this is a no brainer,
you're saying, well, I want to do
a, a, a, a group home for my child
in the city, yet I love horses.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Dot, dot.
I know.
Amanda Atkins: I know.
I know.
It's like, okay, so,
Rupert Isaacson: so do you, do you
make sure that you get out to spend
time with horses as much as you can?
Amanda Atkins: Yes, I do as much as I can.
And, you know, some, I'm having a
hard day some days and I'm like,
I just need to kiss a horse.
I just need to kiss a horse.
So, you know, do what I can
that weekend to make it happen.
I love exercising.
I love moving my body.
I just recently bought like a, it's
not a Vespa, but like a Vespa, a little
scooter that I like to scoot around
town, and that's been super fun for me.
Yeah.
You know, being with friends, listening
to music, writing, there's lots and
lots of things that bring me joy.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was the,
that was the word I was about to ask.
It's joy and
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: It, this is the most
important, the most important thing.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: of course, when you
are in that early stage, I know you
write about this in your book of how
you deal with the grief, the grief of.
The death of those dreams.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And also the
absolute terror of what is to come.
Yeah.
You know, how am I going to meet
the challenge of this, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because I just, I know what an
idiot I am, you know, like mm-hmm.
I'm not built for this.
I'm not strong enough for this.
I'm not, you know, how on
earth am I gonna do Yeah.
That, you know, and of course then
you end up doing it, you know?
But joy
is,
if one isn't living a joyful life,
then one isn't really living.
And it doesn't mean that every
moment can necessarily be joyful.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
But if that,
Rupert Isaacson: but if that is the,
if that's where one's focuses and one
places a really high value on it, then one
is going to experience more of it than if
one didn't, and it's gonna pull through.
Yeah.
When you have your.
Clients coming in and they are in that
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Grief, funk, terror mode.
How do you help to
orient them back to joy?
Amanda Atkins: It's such a good question.
I think it's, I think that's like the
most important question, honestly.
And you would be shocked at how
many people I meet with and I say
exactly what you just asked me.
You know, what brings you joy?
Where do you find meaning?
And they cannot come up with an answer.
You know, they might be able to
tell me what used to bring them
joy or things that they like doing.
But then when I say, well, when's
the last time you did that?
You know, years.
You know, when's the last time that you.
You know, something simple.
Oh, I love going for a walk with my dog.
Okay, well, how often do you do that?
Well, I don't know if I really don't
have time to do it between this and that.
And I do understand that, you know,
like we, time is, it's hard to find
time for things when parents are busy,
but I do firmly believe that we make
time for what we want to make time for.
And so I, I encourage parents
to put it in your schedule.
You know, it takes some of the
sexiness out of it when Yeah.
You have to,
sure.
You know.
Put it in your calendar, but who cares?
Like if, if you look at my weekly
calendar, it's like workout the,
you know, horses on a Saturday.
It's all in the schedule.
Yes, it's not spontaneous and
it's not sexy, but it's in
there and I'm making it happen.
And you know, I think really
helping parents determine what
is it that brings them joy?
What are they passionate about?
I always ask parents, where do
you find your meaning in life?
I mean, it sounds like such a big
question, but I think it's an important
question to be able to have an answer to.
And also, how has this
parenting journey changed you?
Because I think part of where we
find meaning is identifying how has
this shaped me without judgment.
Like, it's not, it's not, oh,
it's made me, it's made me
into a, you know, this bad way.
Let's shift that to say, okay, it's
made me more, yes, maybe it's it.
A lot of parents will say,
I've become more anxious.
I become more anxious by
this parenting journey.
'cause I've realized all
these bad things can happen.
So, you know, I would wanna
work with a parent on like,
well, what, what does that mean?
Like, what?
What do you mean to feel more?
Yes.
You feel worried about things.
Is there another way to look at that?
You feel more aware of suffering.
You feel that you can now, you
know, you're now more attuned
to the suffering in the world.
Yes.
That's a sad thing, but can we
look at that and also look at that
in a way that's actually helpful
for humanity, helpful for people?
Right?
You, you notice differences.
Now you're more attuned to people
that are different from you.
Like, isn't that a win in the
grand scheme of things, you know?
So when I'm working with a parent
around this, I like to help.
Identify what is it that causes
them joy, which is oftentimes,
like I said, you would think that
that would be an easy answer.
But oftentimes, particularly for moms,
I find that that is not something
that people can easily answer.
And number two, where are you finding
meaning in your life and what,
what brings you meaning in life?
Those are the two questions that I
always want people to be able to Do you
Rupert Isaacson: find that they can tell
you what did used to bring them joy?
Or do some of them actually say, you
know, I've never really had anything.
Amanda Atkins: People can usually
tell me what used to bring them joy.
Oh.
I used to like going out with my friends.
I used to like listening to music,
but they feel so disconnected
from that version of themselves.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Now you
are lucky in one big regard.
You have a successful
marriage, at least so far.
Yes.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What you and I both
know is that at least 80% of special
needs marriages don't make the cut.
Amanda Atkins: Now
Rupert Isaacson: 50% of marriages
don't make the cuts, so That's right.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless there's
an awful lot of single parents out there.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And when that
hits, then the overwhelm goes
into just a whole other sphere.
Yep.
And yeah, quite likely there
may not be time for much.
That's right.
When you've got someone in that
position, of course the need for
the choice is even more acute.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because the potential
for burnout is so much higher.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Do what are the
tools that you help people with,
particularly in that situation?
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: I think a big part of that
is, is intentionally developing community.
You know, so it's, it's not,
yes, you're a single parent and.
The demands are huge, right?
But that there is somebody
may maybe co-parent is, is
totally out of the picture.
You know, maybe you have a horrible
relationship with co-parent and
you're not even willing to go
to an IEP meeting with them.
I don't know what the
situation is, you know?
But
yeah.
Where can you find community that,
that you can find people that you
can, you know, go eat dinner with on a
Sunday with their family, that they do
understand your child, that you feel seen.
This is not easy, you know, for a million
reasons nowadays, but I do think it's
something that we have to intentionally be
seeking and, you know, a modern, certainly
modern American culture is not structured,
you know, with community in mind.
We're very isolated.
Yeah.
And it's a huge problem.
And so.
If you're not, especially
like if you're non-religious.
Right?
Because I think religious people can
find it within their, that's, that's I
think, can be a strength of people who
are religious is that they can go to their
church or their synagogue or whatever and
perhaps find like significant community.
But in the absence of that, like,
yeah, where do we go to find community?
It is hard.
It's really hard, especially in a
city of, I mean, in America, period.
You know?
Rupert Isaacson: So again, yeah.
What, what are the tools?
For example, yeah, I could, I could,
'cause I, I deal with this as well.
I, I could tell you some
of the tools that I give.
Yeah.
Because the, the, the obstacles
that you just brought our
attention to are very real.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's one thing
to say you need community, it's
a whole other thing to find it.
Mm-hmm.
So how do people help people to find it?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
I think that's where it comes.
There's like a bravery in that.
Mm-hmm.
You know,
talk, like talking, talking to another
mom at school pickup, inviting a mom
and her kid over for dinner some night.
Like, there's a lot of bravery
and that's required and planning.
So if I was sitting with a parent, I
might say, okay, let's go through what
your schedule looks like and let's
identify a few people that maybe you
could start to build relationships with.
Okay.
What does communication
look like with them?
How do you initiate, what
fears come up around that?
Like it's, you know, do you feel
nervous that they're not gonna
want, you know, that kind of thing.
Mm.
So really just like talking through
how do we build relationships
in a way that's, those are,
Rupert Isaacson: those are
very solid tools actually.
That's, that's to, to, to say are there
actually people that you can identify?
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: They're another mom who
you feel that there could be a vibe with.
Yeah.
Do you, do you see people
becoming successful with this?
On the home.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I do.
It's, it's so loaded because it's,
there's so many things that go into this.
It's like, I can give you
skills, like, how do we initiate
hanging out with somebody?
You know, who do you entrust
to take care of your kids so
that you can get time away?
Mm-hmm.
But,
you know, it's, there's personality
comes into a fact, like, you know, how
are there interpersonal relationships?
How are their skills?
There's only so much
coaching I can do there.
You know, but I think helping people
be brave enough to take the first step
and helping them identify what, on
the big picture, what's your goals?
Okay.
You wanna have, let's say your goal
is you wanna have another mom in the
community that you can, you can watch
their kid for a little bit and they
can go do something and then they
can watch your kid for a little bit.
And you can go do something and
have some alone time or go to
class or whatever like that.
Okay, well let's think about, let's
really break this down and, 'cause I
think people look at these situations
and they feel so overwhelmed, oh,
nobody could ever watch my kid.
You know, or, but it's like, okay, let's
step into reality and let's confront
this and look at it in a way and
actually come up with some ideas where
maybe we can help solve this problem.
So it's not such a big
overarching anxiety.
Rupert Isaacson: The majority of people
that are reading your book and coming
to you as clients, I presume are moms.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: What's
the percentage of dads?
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I mean,
I would say maybe 10% Dads.
There definitely are dads.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: The book is
written in a really non-gendered
way, so a dad could read it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah, just we know it's gonna be
90% women reading it and a lot
of the dads who read it will be
told to read it by their spouses.
Which is a good thing.
Yeah.
Do you get the single dad coming to you?
Amanda Atkins: I don't think I have
ever had a single dad come to me.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting, isn't it?
Yeah.
You know, I wonder where they go.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
That's a population that is on your mind.
Of course.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Because interestingly within the horse
boy world, there's a number of people
who run really good programs, some
of which are residential, and there's
some people that you should talk to.
One, a man called David Doyle in Ireland
Amanda Atkins: who
Rupert Isaacson: has
started an an incredible.
Program, he uses our methods particularly
movement method, but honestly,
even if he'd never run across us,
he'd be doing a, a fantastic job.
Mm-hmm.
And he, he has this, this thing
called step in, step down.
Step out.
So the residential homes are,
they have a, they're in the
country and they have apartments.
They're fully supported.
Somebody would come in and spend a certain
amount of time there, then transition to
going sometimes back home and sometimes
there to then going fully back home.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: To then if they need to,
then cycle in again, cycling in again.
Amanda Atkins: Oh, that's cool.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's a
really cool model because the
families are not broken up.
Everybody gets a break.
More
Amanda Atkins: of like a
respite model, would you say?
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly, exactly.
Uhhuh.
Exactly.
But the respite being more
than like a night, you know?
Yeah.
The respite being that's great.
You know, weeks if necessary.
Amanda Atkins: That's, that was great.
Rupert Isaacson: Whatever is right
for that person and his daughter is,
you know, very severe, very acute.
He had to do something and he came
up with this model, so he's one
of the people I know who's really
built and now he's building them all
over Ireland and he's got the Irish
government to pay for them and, and
Amanda Atkins: great,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, over 10 years
he's gathered all the data to show how
it works and why it works and so on.
Amanda Atkins: Wow.
Rupert Isaacson: And there are these
people out there who are present.
So interestingly within Horse Point, I
know some real dads like this, there's
another man called Henrik Bergoff
in Germany who's got a son who had
hydrocephalus and spina bifida and Wow.
Was sold to have bought the sun.
He and his wife Gitty run
this incredible thing.
Yeah.
Now neither of them are single dads.
But we also have, of course, a lot of
moms who've started programs as well.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just wondering,
you know, the, the male population
is quite lost at the moment.
Yeah.
If you're a white male, you're just,
you are automatically the bad guy.
And you, there are a lot out there
who are facing this and quite a lot.
And what
Amanda Atkins: per,
Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.
Like,
Amanda Atkins: I, I think about
like what still in the year 2025,
like what permission do men have
to, to feel, you know, like,
Rupert Isaacson: none.
Amanda Atkins: Right.
That's all what, what I'm about.
There's talk about it.
Rupert Isaacson: There's talk about it.
So that's why,
Amanda Atkins: that's why nobody
comes to me, probably, you know?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well because, because
the thing is as a, as a, as a bloke.
You are supposed to be a sensitive
bloke, but if you actually
show that vulnerability, there
are no brownie points for it.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In including,
frankly from, from women.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: There is still
a preference for the stoic male.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That is just the truth.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: If, if it was
different, I think we'd have noticed.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm not,
I don't necessarily even
have a judgment over that.
I'm not sure that that's good or bad.
I think that might be just
built into us a little bit.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless
if those men are suffering in that
particular way and are looking at
decades of putting one foot in front of
the other to try and make it all work.
Yeah.
What's the.
What's the plan?
And I'd be interested because
with, I'm talking to you as a
therapist, not just as an author.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And as a special, you
know, special needs parent.
A special needs parent is that
something which, you know, once
you've written a book, you know
this, then you need another book.
I wonder, you know, is that gonna be
like your next book is where are the
dads and what are we doing for them?
A good
Amanda Atkins: question.
I mean, as of now, the next book is
either gonna be about siblings mm-hmm.
Of kids with disabilities
or all about marriage.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Well, let's talk about marriage.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, I
think you are quite unusual in that
you've been together how long now?
Amanda Atkins: 20 years
we've been married.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, I'm
sure it's all been roses, right?
But you are together and
okay, you must have a base compatibility.
This helps.
I'm sure a lot of people are coming
into you as special needs parents
whose, whose marriage is a fracturing.
Yes.
And they're doing that on top of
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You,
what are your strategies there?
Amanda Atkins: Oh, it's hard.
It's, this is,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Arguably the hardest.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Because you have
two individuals with completely
different life experiences coming
in and grieving a situation and
approaching a situation differently.
And both of them are spinning, trying
to do the best they can for their child.
And for themselves.
And often that leaves zero
time for the relationship.
Yeah.
You know, zero time for intimacy
or connection or, you know,
communication or fun playfulness.
It's just so serious, intense, even
Rupert Isaacson: sitting
glass of wine together.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Amanda Atkins: Impossible.
And, and room for conflict too.
We sit down and now I'm talking
about, well, I went to this
appointment and you didn't do that.
There's no playfulness and there's
no connection like there used to be
because it's, everything is high stakes.
Everything is so high stakes.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
Amanda Atkins: That's the reality.
Well actually I
Rupert Isaacson: would posit that what
is going on for most married couples
in the special needs thing is actually
something similar to what's going on
for a lot of the special needs kids.
Because most of the special needs
kids, it comes with not all but many.
It comes with a really high anxiety level.
High levels of cortisol.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm
guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not
just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
My friend Joel Dunlap, another
person you should get with who
runs Square Peg Foundation in
California does they incredible work.
You know, square pegs
and ran holes, everyone.
So in Square Peg Foundation,
everybody fits right.
Amanda Atkins: I love that.
Rupert Isaacson: She's a bit of a genius.
And also a special needs mom.
We had our horse boy Tribe day.
We, we are big believers in tribe.
In Community.
Mm-hmm.
We're international, so, you know,
it's 40 countries and people.
So we try to get together
every couple of years.
And this year we got together in
Ireland and she was a speaker and
she made this really good point.
She said, what you're dealing with,
whether it's the kids or whether it's
the parents, is cortisol poisoning.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: So for those
listeners who don't really
know that neuroscience are.
The part of your brain that governs fight,
flight, freeze, fear, anxiety is called
the amygdala, which means almond in old.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Because
Rupert Isaacson: it's
shaped like an almond.
And if it detects a threat, imaginary
or real, that it doesn't care, it will
tell your body to produce two things.
Adrenaline and cortisol.
And cortisol is like a pair of scissors
that momentarily cuts the cord between
the, or the connection between the
boiler room of the brain dealing with
all the blood flow and temperature and
digestion and the front part of the brain.
The CEO wondering what's for lunch because
you do not want to be wondering what's
for lunch when something wants to make
you lunch you or make lunch out of you.
So you must act not think so it nature's
very clever, it's kills brain cells.
It's a neurotoxin, so that's why
stress makes you sick because it's.
Actually a neurotoxin.
And it sticks around in
the body all the time.
And happiness feels fleeting.
'cause oxytocin, serotonin, they evaporate
almost as soon as they're produced.
You have to keep producing
them all the time mm-hmm.
To, to keep feeling happy,
whereas cortisol sticks around.
So PTSD is basically cortisol
scarring in the brain.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And luckily you
can, you can deal with it with
oxytocin very quickly if you
know how to produce oxytocin.
That's a whole other thing.
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Atkins: But,
Rupert Isaacson: There it is.
So you've got two people who are
in this marriage who are kind of
drowning in a vat of cortisol.
Yeah, that's right.
And when you, when you've got
cortisol going around you, you can't
reason because you can't think.
Mm-hmm.
So when you're having a knockdown
drag out fight with your.
You know, significant other, that's not
the best time to talk about your long-term
investment portfolios because Exactly.
They're just not gonna
make a rational decision.
That's right.
That's right.
Not available, you know?
Access denied for intellect.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's
what these people are facing.
And then of course they go
to war for these reasons.
How do you help 'em?
Amanda Atkins: Restoring safety
is such a slow process, right?
Like bringing your nervous
system back to baseline.
I think it starts with giving
yourself permission to rest.
Mm-hmm.
You know, lowering the expectation.
Like this constant need for
therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy.
Kid has seven therapies a week
and you're going to see every
specialist and you're doing this.
It's like,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Amanda Atkins: just be.
What does it feel like
to just be for a minute?
You know, there's been times where I, even
now we're in one therapy a week for Asher.
That's it.
There's been times where we've had four
or five therapies a week, and I just
had to stop it eventually and be like,
I cannot function at this level anymore.
You know?
And so it's counterintuitive because
we feel like we need to be doing
24 7, but I really think lowering
the cortisol is by doing less.
And just coming back to basics, like
again, that question, what brings you joy?
Yeah.
You know, where can you cut?
Can you, do you really, is
this therapy really something
that you have to do right now?
Or is, can you take a break from it?
You know, our kids are overscheduled
and therefore we're overscheduled, and
so do you have to go do all this stuff?
Or can you find safety for a minute
and, and let your nervous system
relax a little bit so that you can
actually allow yourself to feel joy.
It sounds so simple, right?
But I mean, in reality, this
is impossible stuff to do.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's
not simple when you're.
Dealing with what you're just talking
about because the exhausting, I
remember in the early days with
Rowan before I became the therapy.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: We were, yes.
Constantly driving around spending money.
We,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
Didn't
Rupert Isaacson: have time we didn't have.
And it was incredibly stressful.
Where I was really lucky 'cause
I'm a journalist, like, so
I will always ask questions.
So I knew that I didn't know anything
about this condition that my son had.
So I thought, okay, I need a mentor
who I believe in mentorship strongly,
you know, who is that mentor?
Like what qualities would
that mentor need to have?
And I coach people with this.
So it was okay, that mentor
needs to be an adult with autism
because anybody else will have
opinions, but not lived experience.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: that autism
can't just be like, you know,
high functioning quirkiness a la
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Young Sheldon.
It's to be like, they had to
start where my son was nonverbal,
shitting their pants, self-harming
tantrums, like all of that.
And they have to have somehow made it.
Who's that person?
And actually that person
was really easy to identify.
That was Dr.
Temple Grandin.
Amanda Atkins: Ah, right, right, right.
Yeah.
So she she
Rupert Isaacson: started
life exactly there.
She was rocking in a corner at
three, wiping her poo on the walls.
Yeah.
They were gonna
institutionalize her nonverbal.
So I just wrote her an email
and said can I come talk to you?
Cool.
And she went, yeah.
So I just showed up and I
sat in her office and said,
how does my son become you?
And she said, do three
things, and I did 'em.
Mm-hmm.
And the most important
one was follow the child.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I asked
about ASHA's passionate interests.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I
asked about your passionate interests.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I know
from experience that if I follow
the passionate interests of my kid,
everything else will fall into place.
Amanda Atkins: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: But if I try
to put an adult agenda on it,
everything will get very complex.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: But we are told
we have to put the adult agenda on.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, that the
child should comply to the adult agenda.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And
Rupert Isaacson: that I think
is, you know, we were all
brought up with that, weren't we?
Yeah.
So it's, it is a real, so I've, you
know, when we're doing our trainings, for
example, that's the hardest skill to teach
people is the follow the child piece.
Sounds so simple.
Like you said, fi find joy.
It sounds very simple, doesn't it?
But it's not because Right.
Our Judaic, you know,
cultures are not about joy.
They're about suffering.
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Going to hell.
Paying your tithes.
Control, control, control.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Because what I love, yeah, I, what I
love about the idea of following the
child is it gives the, it gives the
child confidence, it gives the child.
A sense of self that they learn to follow.
Like, that's why it's so hard
for so many of us as adults
to say, what brings you joy?
Because nobody's ever really asked
us that question that cares about it.
Yes.
Right?
And so when we're putting our child in
the position of being the leader and
we're saying, I'm gonna follow where you
lead me, and I'm gonna be there to help
you and mentor you and shape you, it
actually gives the child a sense of what
brings them joy and what they want to do.
And it's crazy.
Kids don't even have that.
They just wanna sit on a screen now
because that's, that's what they're given.
They've lost that sense
of adventure in some ways.
And so I think your method really helps
them reconnect with a sense of adventure,
a sense of, you know, autonomy, adventure,
Rupert Isaacson: exploration, play.
Yes.
These play, you know what, what's that?
Yes.
What's people, what's the old adage?
They say you, you don't stop
playing 'cause you get old.
You get old 'cause you stop playing.
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: If we're, if we parent.
Follow the child where the child
doesn't allow us to stop playing.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
And it's so fun and connecting
and you feel like, oh my
gosh, I actually like my kid.
Yeah.
My kid's funny.
I wanna spend time with them.
They're actually
Rupert Isaacson: good company.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
I love that.
Interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Doesn't mean
sometimes you don't, you know, get
exhausted and frustrated again.
Of course.
Or
Amanda Atkins: you don't have, you
have to discipline from time to time.
This is all real things
of parenting, you know?
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's
still No, I, I so agree.
That we're, what we're
really presented with is an
antagonistic, an antagonism model.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And also to tell the kid,
don't be a kid again, I'm gonna
quote my friend Joel, be a
pen.
Be, be a Philadelphia lawyer, aged 45.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and if you
don't do that, we're gonna give you drugs
Amanda Atkins: to
Rupert Isaacson: make you that.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then
we'll all be miserable.
Amanda Atkins: One thing I'm curious
about, do you feel like having your
first son have autism, do you feel like
that helped you take a more relaxed
approach with your other children?
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred percent.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
A hundred
Rupert Isaacson: percent.
Yeah.
Me too.
There there's, there's a part of me,
you know, I mean, they're not through
their childhood yet, so there's
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: To come.
But you know, there are some
things which they do and
I'm like, yeah, I'll be fine.
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
It'll be like, I don't care.
It's okay.
It'll be
Rupert Isaacson: fine.
Yeah, I agree.
It's like
Amanda Atkins: just totally
changes the perspective.
You're like, what matters.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Not
Amanda Atkins: that much.
Rupert Isaacson: It brings to some
version of World War I, you know?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
It's all fine.
But also the other thing which.
I, this is, again, it sounds cliche, but
it it does, it is worth drawing one's
attention to childhood is very short.
Mm-hmm.
But it sets the tone for everything.
So the more one can put emphasis into
making that as joyful as possible.
Well, a, the more joy you are gonna
experience as the parent, but also
the more you're gonna set that
person up with a habit of joy.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, with
Rowan being my old first son now
being 23 going on 24, be 24 in a
couple of weeks, actually, Jesus.
How did that happen?
Is that allowed?
Let's talk to him about that.
Don't, don't discipline him.
Stop.
Stop.
But
you know, he's now spent more
of his life not as a child.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: He's still
quite childlike in, in some
ways, but he, yeah, you, you've
got this kind of 12 year thing.
It's not, it's not, you
know, ass out of it.
Now I know, again, I'm sure he,
I'm sure he's quite childlike
Amanda Atkins: right,
but he's taller than me.
He's, you know, got body hair.
He looks like a man in
a lot of ways, you know?
It's crazy.
Rupert Isaacson: What do you
think is gonna be his future
in terms of relationships and
what does he want with that?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: With, do
you know what he wants?
Does he express what he wants?
And what, what, what do you think?
His chances,
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea.
He doesn't really talk a lot about,
you know, friendships or, I don't
know that he's ever talked about
romantic relationships, you know, so he
Rupert Isaacson: puberty, so
is he expressing sexuality?
Amanda Atkins: Not really, not not
related to other people at all.
I mean, it doesn't really seem like it.
No.
He hasn't really said anything about
ever wanting to go out on a date
or like an interest in anybody.
Yeah.
I mean, he hasn't expressed
Rupert Isaacson: any frustration.
Amanda Atkins: He has not, I
cognitively, I don't know if he's
totally aware of like how other
kids differ from him in that way.
I'm not sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, in, in some ways
that's a real blessing.
He's sort of,
Amanda Atkins: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: To some degree insulated.
Amanda Atkins: I felt that.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But of course not every
special needs child by any means is
Amanda Atkins: of course,
Rupert Isaacson: many people are
coming, the moms are coming into
you and their boys and their girls
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Are beginning
to express these needs.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you help?
How do you help them navigate that?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
There's a whole chapter in my book about
puberty that discusses a lot of this and.
A lot of it, I think for parents kind
of hinges on independence, right?
It's like our kids, depending on
their cognition and their needs, they
might either want more independence
than maybe they're able to have or.
There's just can be that struggle around
independence and what that looks like.
And obviously as parents, first and
foremost, we want our kids to be safe.
And you know, when you're thinking about
things like dating, then it's like consent
and the ability to consent and sexuality
and sex and all that is so scary.
And you know, how do we,
Rupert Isaacson: but
it has to be addressed.
Amanda Atkins: It absolutely
has to be addressed.
And there has to be room for it too.
Yes.
You know, like if your child is able to
consent and is interested in romantic
relationships and you know, that is
something that we have to be able to,
to allow that for their own development.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
It's a human rights.
A human need.
Exactly.
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
And so I think a lot of what I talk about
with parents is not so much like how, how
do they go about doing it, but how do they
wrestle with their own emotions around it?
Because if you spent your whole life
taking care of your child and suddenly
they wanna go out on a date with
somebody and everyone's consenting
and able to do it, mom might feel
like, no, I'm not letting them do it.
But she has to work through that.
Instead of, you know, controlling and
keeping him close, she has to work through
her feelings of letting go and allow
that, you know, so I think a lot of it
is like, what is the parent feeling?
So often it's like very hard to let go of
this person that they've, they feel like
they have some sense of ownership over.
'cause at the end of the day, we don't.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but
also a sense of responsibility
to keep safe too, as you say.
Absolutely.
And absolutely.
You
Amanda Atkins: know,
Rupert Isaacson: Treading
that line, it's so hard to
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
It's like,
Rupert Isaacson: you know,
the mother duck pushing the
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Duckling out onto the,
of course, no longer a duckling, you
know, right out water, but knowing that
there's alligators swimming arounds,
but they don't go out on the water.
They can't be a duck.
They, it's, this is where I
feel tribe and community is so
important because if there is
more known.
Familiarity between the people in the
group, then there is also accountability.
Amanda Atkins: That's exactly right.
So Asher recently wanted to
go to the homecoming dance.
He's never done anything like this before.
You know, he doesn't have his
driver's license, that kind of thing.
But l one of the girls I mentioned
earlier that does the, the.
Zoom sessions with him.
He said that he wanted to
ask Elle to go to homecoming.
So we texted her, she
said, yes, of course.
And I'm thinking about that idea of
community because the restaurant that
they wanted to go out to, there was
a two hour wait in order to get in.
They didn't have reservations or whatever,
but he vent to that restaurant enough.
It's just our corner little bar and grill
that they let the kids skip the weight and
go in and, you know, and just knowing that
like, okay, the servers there know him.
Our community knows him.
Even in Chicago.
Yeah.
People know the places that
Asher visits, people know Asher.
And so there's this sense of community
of like, yeah, our, our tribe.
City it.
A lot of people that interact with
Asher know him and know his limitations
and his needs and just knowing that
even when I wasn't there, there
were people that had eyes on him.
Like, that's such a comforting
feeling to know that within our
community it has almost a smaller
village feel to it in the middle of
a huge city with 3 million people.
But okay, you're one of
Rupert Isaacson: those
integrated neighborhoods.
Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
It feels so good to know that
there's people on every corner
that know him and know us.
That's really special.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: he's
going to a restaurant.
How does he deal with his desire
to eat more food than he can?
Amanda Atkins: So I coached Elle
before, you know, and that puts her
in a difficult position 'cause she's
his friend, she's the same age as him.
But I said, you know, he can, Asher
always orders off the kids' menu.
That's like one of his things.
And so he did that and I
just knew going into it, he's
gonna finish all of his food.
If there's ketchup, he's gonna lick
the ketchup, he's gonna get an apple
juice, even though I don't want him to.
I'm letting go.
It's fine.
Yeah.
It's one night.
Rupert Isaacson: It's fine.
But he is, he not gonna want
to just keep ordering and keep
ordering and keep ordering.
Amanda Atkins: I just knew Al wouldn't
let him, you know, Al would, you know,
I guess said, let him order what he
orders and you know, just one thing.
And he even like, brought our credit
card so that he could pay for it,
like to be the gentleman and stuff.
It was very sweet.
So yeah, it was, it was a cool experience.
But knowing the community aspect that
there's, you know, there very well may
have been people in that restaurant
that night that even knew him.
Just people, you know?
Yeah.
Regular people eating there.
So the importance of community.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And his relationship
with Al and the other young
woman, he wants to zoom with them.
He wants to spend time with them.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
But
Rupert Isaacson: he's not.
Frustrated or heartbroken that he
can't have a relationship with them.
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't seem to be,
because there's been points where one
of 'em will maybe get a boyfriend or
something, and Asher just kind of knows.
It's like no big deal.
He never seems like I've said before,
do you, do you have a crush on her?
Do you like her?
And he's like, no, you
know, she's my friend.
She's my friend.
So I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it's it's
such a, it's such a mystery.
Amanda Atkins: It really is.
Rupert Isaacson: This is
a hard question to ask.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Can I
just ask it straight out?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: What's the life
expectancy in general with Prada?
Amanda Atkins: It seems like it's, it
can range anywhere from, you know, young
to old, but there's no, there's no like
evidence to say that he will die young.
Rupert Isaacson: Is there a sort of bang
in the middle prognosis that normally.
Amanda Atkins: It.
So much of it depends on weight
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: And health
around that, you know?
Yeah.
Health around all of that.
And so, you know, there's a lot of other
things like sleep apnea or things like
that that can definitely impact life.
But as it stands right now,
there's no reason that Asher
would not live to be, you know,
60 or 60 years old, give or take.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Amanda Atkins: Young, young.
I mean, we're not talking 80 or nine.
Also young by, by all standards
Rupert Isaacson: now.
Yeah.
Not young by 14th century
standards, you know?
Correct.
Correct.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So, I, I
didn't know about sleep apnea.
I was gonna go somewhere else
for this question, but just talk
to me briefly about sleep apnea.
Why is that a thing with, prior to,
Amanda Atkins: so kind of the main
treatment for PWS is growth hormone.
The growth hormone injections.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Amanda Atkins: And growth hormone
can lead to an overgrowth of
adenoids and tonsils and all of that.
Oh, okay.
We did get, and so he's,
he's been followed for apnea.
Forever since he's been on
the growth growth hormone.
But he does have his adenoids and
everything removed, but it's still
something frequently that we get sleep
studies just to check in on that.
'cause that can be a definite
concern for people with PWS.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, good.
That's good to know.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you know, if, for example,
longevity is to a large
degree predicated upon weight.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And the best
people to probably be in control of
that, are you and your husband Yes.
Or the more reason to be the
providers of the service of the home
that he eventually goes to living.
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
Rupert Isaacson: Totally.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Atkins: I'll be in control
of the menu, like Right, exactly.
It's really to that point.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So,
given that that is probably
inevitably what you're going to do.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you
been thinking about models?
Like, are you gonna form a nonprofit.
Are you going to reach out for mentorship?
Are there other people already doing
this with Pril that, you know who
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.
Any.
Any, yeah, I'm not sure.
I don't really know anyone else in
the PWS community that's doing this,
but there, there are other people,
even in like the Chicago area that
have kids right about the same age
that have talked about this as well,
that are, you know, meeting to sort
of discuss what next steps would mean.
But really it's all very new to me,
so I'm like right in the beginning
stages of even thinking about all this.
Rupert Isaacson: So I guess
Amanda Atkins: you are who
I'm gonna be talking to.
Yeah.
We'll absolutely
Rupert Isaacson: have that conversation
for anyone who's listening.
Yes.
You need to found a nonprofit.
Yeah.
And that is not a big deal.
You can be up and running in six weeks.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And you are in a unique
position in the same way that some of
the people I know who are physicians.
Who run their, who have autism,
parents who've started things Yeah.
Are a unique position.
'cause you could run a family
practice out of that business.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And for example,
Rowan, my son, is now to some degree
professionally himself in that he
helps me when I'm going round, doing
particularly movement method trainings.
He will talk to the therapists, the
caregivers, the parents who were training
in our methods about what it is to be
autistic from the inside, how it felt to
go from the kind of nonverbal, disoriented
fog he calls it, the fog to emerging
from that fog and what that process was.
A lot of autistic people
will talk about this.
It's, it's, it's, it's really fascinating.
What to do to ensure success.
Why follow the child, you
know, blah, blah, blah.
And so he's really
professionally him.
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I could see that if
you were to do that in the family therapy
context with Asha, you know mm-hmm.
It's, it's a, a wonderful thing if
Asha comes into the room or Rowan comes
to the room, sits down Oh my gosh.
And says, this is how it
is from my point of view.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Rupert Isaacson: And then a
parent who's perhaps, you know,
at the very, very start of that
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
Mount
Rupert Isaacson: Everest that they have
to climb can say, well, actually, yeah.
Oh wow, okay.
That, yeah.
That it's climbable.
Yeah.
That's reassuring.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So I could see you
being in a pretty unique position there.
Mm-hmm.
And actually being able to come in,
you know, not just being a service.
User, but a service provider.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
I love that too, because it's like,
we all got into this because of
our, our kid, but it's also become
a passion to help other parents and
other kids in these situations too.
So it's, you know, the benefit is
there's so much benefit there that we're,
we're doing the work that we're doing
so that other parents maybe don't have
to start from the bottom or the, at
least they feel like there's some hope.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Well, and particularly when you've,
you've, you've stumbled upon solutions.
Yes.
You know, so when, when we stumbled
upon this thing and then we realized
that it came down to this basic, but
then I need to know why was it working?
Why was it working?
And That's right.
So then I, so, or something in
the brain and the nervous system,
well, who understands brains and
nervous systems, neuroscientists.
Right.
So I went and spoke to neuroscientists
and said, can you explain why this
thing that we're doing is working?
And they could, and then we realized,
oh shit, we could replicate it then.
Amanda Atkins: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's good.
But I went through a bit
of a, do I want to do that?
Because as soon as you become
a bit of a public bigger right.
You know, people are gonna
throw mud, blah, blah, blah.
And I thought one, it got, it got to
because there's almost like a moral
obligation because there are so many
parents out there who are in the
position that I was in 20 years ago.
Yes,
Amanda Atkins: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Who are not
knowing what to do, who didn't,
haven't gone and met Temple Grandin.
That's right.
And that's right.
And so we stumbled into this technology.
If we don't make it available,
that's not very nice.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: There was a bit
of a temptation at the beginning
to say, why don't we just stay
within the family and keep, of
Amanda Atkins: course.
Rupert Isaacson: And that would be easier,
but it wouldn't have been in the long run
because there would've been no community.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: And no support
and no support for him and
no livelihood for him and no.
Mm-hmm.
So I do feel actually that, that
generally what I say is you, you're in
this not only for the rest of your life.
You're in this beyond the grave.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You have
to set up these structures.
So, okay, let's go.
So as it
Amanda Atkins: turns out,
our identity is full circle.
'cause I started saying, I'm
not gonna find my identity
in this, and then here I am.
Rupert Isaacson: But that's such an
adolescent thing to say, isn't it?
It is.
Like, exactly, exactly.
That seems that one even has an identity.
Amanda Atkins: That's right, that's right.
Is an
Rupert Isaacson: identity that's a
fixed thing and not That's right.
Endlessly mutable because
of course, what is
Amanda Atkins: exactly,
Rupert Isaacson: anyway, it's just
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
And of course we're gonna be
changed forever by this experience.
It's ingrained in us now.
Rupert Isaacson: And I think by
parenting in general, let's say it
special needs wasn't in the picture.
You do exist for your children.
That's right.
That's, that is just a,
a biological fact to you.
Yeah, you do.
It doesn't mean you can't
pursue your own fulfillment.
But that's still in service too.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And you actually
won't be happy unless it is,
because we are just wired that way.
Yeah.
But I know that feeling.
Yes.
That's a very sort of twenties,
thirties way to think.
Totally.
I'm not going to be, yeah.
I'm blah.
That's not gonna define me.
And it's like,
Amanda Atkins: yeah.
It's like the first thing
outta my mouth, huh?
Yeah.
No, he has a disability.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, it
brings out the best in us, I think.
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
Totally.
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
you wouldn't be who you are.
You wouldn't have written this book.
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: You wouldn't
have become this family therapist.
Yeah.
Now, speaking of the book, I'd like you
to read a little bit from it, please.
All right.
All right.
Amanda Atkins: Okay, so this is in
kind of in the last chapter, which
is a chapter all about, it's called
a whole You, and it's all about how
we find meaning in this journey.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
Amanda Atkins: All right.
You have your own passions,
worldviews, and values.
You have lived your own unique life
shaped by experiences from your
childhood, culture, religion, and
all the other factors of your story.
The good, the bad, the ugly,
and everything in between.
Parenting a disabled child very
well may be your most life-changing
experience, but there are many, many
other factors that make you who you are.
Finding meaning in parenting a disabled
child can help you build a bridge
from the person you were before your
child was born, to the person you
are now and who you will become.
This work can lead you to a choice,
reinforce a worldview, make a
worldview crumble, or light a fire
inside you to create something that
makes the world a better place.
The question is, who are you?
Who is the whole you?
In light of, not in spite of your role
as the parent to a disabled child,
your parenting experience has no doubt
changed you, but your core self, values,
passions, fears, joys, it's all there.
And it's important that you give
yourself permission to be the whole you
as you consider your sense of self and
where you find meaning in your life.
I'll never dismiss the hard
parts of parenting a disabled
child, but with the lowest lows
come some of the highest highs.
When you've spent endless hours in
physical therapy with your child,
watching them muster up all their
strength to tackle a milestone, is
earth shattering in the best way, seeing
your baby smile, make eye contact,
come out of a surgery or seizure?
These are the moments where you find
real meaning in life on a larger scale.
Applying your awareness of disability to
your worldview can look like realizing
that disability is a normal part of
diversity and seeing beauty in all people.
This is both simple and
revolutionary all at the same time.
Being the parent of a disabled
child has fundamentally changed
the way I view the world.
I now understand that all emotions,
not just the pleasurable ones
are meant to be part of life.
I now know that the goal is not pleasure.
The goal is not perfection.
What is the goal you ask to
be present through all of it?
There is so much beauty and value
scattered throughout the human.
The the experience of
parenting a disabled child.
We get to be a companion to our child
through all of life's ups and downs.
Parenting is the hardest job but parenting
a disabled child with compassion,
advocacy, vulnerability, and balance,
that's often the hardest, hardest job.
We are the keepers of our
child's life, often responsible
for decision making and future
planning, and not just for 18 years.
It could last one year
or it could last 60.
And if I'm being honest,
either option terrifies me.
I can do it, and so can you.
Scattered amid the joy and grief
somewhere under all the caretaking
and responsibility is you.
You're not the same
person you were before.
Parenting through your world, upside down.
You've changed, but you're in there.
You're allowed to be
more than just a parent.
You're allowed to have complex emotions
about your parenting experience and
not feel like you have to add the
caveat, but I love my child so much
because love and pain can coexist.
I've often heard people say something
like, take care of yourself.
You owe it to your child.
But that rhetoric is part of what
makes us feel guilty about having
complex emotions about parenting.
Our child cannot be the sole
motivation for our wellbeing.
You deserve to be fully whole a person
who feels all the emotions without
self-judgment, a person who advocates
for their child and for themselves.
You deserve care, love,
and self-compassion.
Take care of yourself.
You owe it to you
Rupert Isaacson: west.
Live by, well, what's the first
thing you are gonna do for your
self care when we're done with this?
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I'm gonna go outside
here in a little bit and walk in the snow.
It's like 30 degrees, but
you gotta get out there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Out there.
And what are gonna do?
What, what, what, what?
What are you gonna do for
joy while you're out there?
Amanda Atkins: You know, I
love just seeing the birds,
smelling the smells of the snow.
Just slowing down for a minute.
Just slowing down for a minute.
Got a busy day, a
Rupert Isaacson: busy week.
Well, but what, what?
You identified two things there.
You're gonna go and observe nature.
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: When
you go and self care,
is that your first
go-to, to observe nature?
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, it is.
Whether it's outside or inside my dog.
Yeah.
Birds weather.
Yeah.
Leaves,
yeah.
Smells, yeah.
Nature for me.
For sure.
Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting, isn't it?
It's, it's, it's, it's the thing
that is not talked about in therapy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I remember when I was going
through therapy talk therapy
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I was thinking,
sitting there thinking, wow, I
know more about the brain than
this person talking to me does.
Right.
What I'm talking to.
I know that sitting here in this chair
in this room is not gonna do the trick.
No.
I need the move, I need
movement for my brain.
Yep.
I need endorphins.
I need neuro BDNF, brain derived
neurotrophic plaque factor.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Neuroplasticity
moving around in nature.
I need
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: The
habitat that my organism.
Requires in order to mm-hmm.
Do wellbeing.
And it's so interesting to me that within
the therapy thing, it's, and there are
people, like I'm a nature therapist,
Amanda Atkins: right?
Rupert Isaacson: But the average
therapy that has come outta the sort
of 19th century JGI and Freudian
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Psycho-analysis, and then
on from there only looks at
nature in terms of archetypes.
Right.
And symbolism
Amanda Atkins: and does therapy in these
little rooms with flu life, they were
Rupert Isaacson: these like blokes,
these academics who like sat in rooms
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: In Vienna, you know.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and,
and obsessed about stuff.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: But
interestingly, the best therapists
I've ever come across, human ones are.
Kalahari, koan, Bushman,
shamans, hunter, gatherer.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Healers living
in that authentic human way.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And
I like the fact that when I asked you the
question, what are you gonna go do now?
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
He
Rupert Isaacson: basically said, I'm
gonna go out in the snow, observe.
Yeah.
Smell the snow and observe the birds.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: What I'm gonna go do,
'cause I'm six, seven hours ahead of you
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is I'm going to
go downstairs and sit by the fire
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: By with my children.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which
is also nature, you know.
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and listen
to the wind, you know, around
the old farmhouse and pet.
Love it.
My dog.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Yeah.
Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And also talk
to my wife and my children, which
is tribe, which is also nature.
Right.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It is simpler, I
think, I think, than we think it is.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But it can also
be hard to access nature if you are
sitting in an apartment in a tower
block in Queens or, yes, Tokyo.
Then, so then, you know, you said also
I liked this nature could be inside too.
Mm-hmm.
So are there plants, are
there natural materials?
Do you have a pet?
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: Are there, yeah.
These things are of such
paramount importance
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Overlooked, but I
think sometimes can be the difference
between survival and non survival.
Totally.
Totally.
And they bring joy.
Mm-hmm.
So,
okay.
I think people will probably
want to contact you and find you.
How do they find Dr.
Joy?
Yeah, I like that.
And yeah, you can yeah.
Tell people how they can reach out to
you and, and get mentorship from you
and find your book and all of that.
Okay.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
You can find my book really anywhere.
Books are sold online or if you
wanna go to your local bookstore and
order your li there are in lots of
libraries in the United States too.
And yeah, you can find me on my
website, Amanda Griffith Atkins.
That's G-R-I-F-F-I-T ht KI s.com.
Amanda Griffith atkins.com,
and I'm on Instagram at Amanda Period.
Griffith Period, Atkins.
Those are the best ways to
find me or send me an email.
I'm a real person.
Very accessible.
Rupert Isaacson: I imagine
that you do consultancies and
things like that over Zoom.
Yep.
I do parent
Amanda Atkins: consultations and
I always like to kind of say, it's
not like when I'm doing a parent
consultation, it's not a how to parent.
I'm not that kind of therapist that's
gonna tell you how to raise your child.
I'm more gonna tell you how
to take care of yourself while
you're raising your child.
So keep that in mind too.
Yeah.
I'm all about the parent.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I would like, I
would like to collaborate with you.
I was leading a retreat this year in
Sweden in the wilds of Sweden is amazing.
And one of the people who was on it
is a fellow special needs parent, and
she started talking her daughter's in
her thirties and began talking about
the long term trauma
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Of mm-hmm.
The accumulated trauma of
being a special needs parent.
That particularly sort of when
they get much older and you are
now dealing with that kind of.
Tiredness.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: 'Cause you've been
in it two, three decades by then.
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm realizing that in
our work we don't yet have that program.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So let's do it.
Should do it.
Amanda Atkins: Let's do it.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: We'll
bring Leanna in as well.
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
Oh, Leanna
Rupert Isaacson: Lad's listeners,
if you're listening to this, you've
gotta go check out the Livery Ride
Free with Leanna Tank 'cause Yes, rad.
And we having this conversation
if it wasn't for Leanna.
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
Yeah.
I love Leanna.
Yeah.
Well thank you.
What a gift
Rupert Isaacson: gift.
Yeah, likewise.
I look forward to the
continuing conversation.
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
Take care.
Rupert Isaacson: You too.
Amanda Atkins: Bye
Rupert Isaacson: bye.
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