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The HeadRush Podcast with Paul Frase takes you inside the reality of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) through the lens of football. With firsthand experience in one of the most punishing sports, Paul shares stories, the lasting effects of head trauma, and the fight for awareness and support.
This is the Head Rush Podcast with Paul Frase and Corey Barry.
Welcome to the Head Rush Podcast. I'm Paul Frase, and I played 11 years in the NFL. And our co-host, Corey Barry, rode professional rodeo for 9 years. At the Head Rush Podcast, we talk about everything related to brain trauma and brain health and wellness. We talk about traumatic brain injury, TBI, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, CTE, traumatic encephalopathy syndrome, TES, and repeated head impacts, RHI. We cover how traumatic brain injuries can and will cause mental health issues such as depression, addiction, lack of executive function, memory loss, even suicide ideation, as well as degenerative neurological issues. These symptoms can be found on the Mayo Clinic and Boston University websites under symptoms of CTE.
Our mantra is how to cope and find hope, and we focus our energy on finding therapies and sharing hope through education and by raising awareness.
Good. You didn't mess up on encephalopathy this time.
I usually do.
You usually do.
Today, we have a great guest, and I really gotta say thank you so much because
the people we were supposed to have on had an emergency and had to cancel. So I made a phone call, and she said, "Sure, I'm available."
We met her... Well, I don't know if you've met her before, but I met her in Tampa at the Mack Parkman Foundation International Summit for Repeated Head Impacts, and she spoke. We have on and are so honored to have
Tiana Wimberley, well, McCall Wimberley, so the people that remember,
um, as our guest. Tiana presented at the summit and is on a mission to share her son's legacy of love, impartiality, and generosity,
Ray Anthony Lewis III. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this is Ray Lewis's son we are talking about, and Tiana's son.
Ray Anthony Lewis III was the 1st born, well, son of Tiana McCall Wimberley and NFL Hall of Fame linebacker Ray Lewis. He passed away on June 14th, 2023. He was a big personality and a lover of life. As they call him Ray Ray, as he was affectionately called ... I'm messing this one up bad. Was a people person who loved all people unconditionally. God, Paul, you just...
We, we, we just gotta read the script, so...
Okay. The McCall Lewis family dedicated deci-
The Mc-
the McCall Lewis family decided to con- continue Ray Ray's legacy of love, impartiality, and generosity to keep his memory alive by establis- establishing the RL3 Foundation,
a nonprofit 501[c]3 organization. And they strive to support those things that Ray Ray was pa- passionate about, children, football, and music, uh, while also educating and supporting efforts on the prevention of those issues that impacted his life, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, CTE, and related mental health issues.
Tiana, thank you so much for joining us today.
We 1st talked with you about coming on the Head Rush Podcast in Tampa. Paul has some ties with Ray Ray's father,
being a member of the Baltimore Ravens during the 1998 season.
Paul has also lost a son,
and that
was due to?
Uh, myotubular myopathy. Um, he had a rare muscle disorder, and he was, um, uh, he was one of 55 known cases in the world when he was born. And, uh, actually that was, uh, he was born just 3 years before I joined, um, your team, the Baltimore Ravens. And, uh, I, I may have met you at some of the functions, uh, in- interestingly, years and years ago, right? That was a long time, and I had a lot more hair, and it was brown then, so...
But, uh, it, uh, it was, you know, obviously it was a thrill. Uh, it was my 11th year in the league, and I got to p- play with the Ray Lewis, so that was, that was pretty cool. I re- met him at, uh, uh, Peter Boulware's Bible study. That, that was, that was the 1st time I met him. So, um,
Tiana, what a privilege to speak with you. And, uh, we're gonna go- dive deep into the foundation in a bit. Um,
the Wimberley-Lewis families are football families.
And you-
Sure
... you are a football mom,
I would-
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
God, her former was-
Well, yeah, and-
... one of the NFL greats, so she's more than just a football mom. She's, like, lived football.
Exactly. Exactly. So I wanna ask you, before you realized traumatic brain injury was a thing to worry about- Tell us how you viewed getting your bell rung, um, and how you did everything right
as a mother, as a, a, a mother watching, you know, taking care of your babies out on the field. Um,
tell, tell us about that.
Well, 1st of all, good afternoon, gentlemen, and thank you to both you, Corey and Paul, for this opportunity to come on and share information about CTE. It is going to be through efforts like this, collaborative, um, of us coming together in this community to share information and bring awareness and education that we will be able to continue to impact and effect change. So just wanna say thank you 1st for the opportunity to be here. Um, and also, Paul, just offer my condolences for your loss. Um, there's still never a day that goes by that, of course, we don't think of our loved ones. I just try to use the energy, um, to, for a good purpose. So thank you again for this opportunity. Um, with regards to how I cared for my boys and, and in terms of football and, um, you know, football was always a part of our lives. Uh, Ray and I, uh, met in college, and so of course he was playing at the University of Miami while I was, um, a student there myself. Um, and we had Ray Ray in college, so we were young parents. Um, he went to the league and it's all my sons ever knew. They were raised, um, around football from the time they came into the world. Um, and, uh, Ray had a very long career, you know, um, of 17 years. So they were, you know, graduating high school as he was retiring. So again, that's all they knew. So they played from a very young age amongst each other in the house, you know, running around, knocking things over. And until they were of age to get out there on the field and play tackle football with Pop Warner. So they started very young at, you know, 5, 6 years old out there through Pop Warner, through middle school, high school. Um, they all played Division One, uh, football at multiple schools. Um, and then Ray Ray even went on, um, to play semi-pro for the Mus- uh, the Wyoming Mustangs. Um, so I mean, I was, you know, team mom, you know, the president of the booster club. You know, I did all those things. So, um, knowing little more than the average, uh, woman about football because of their father's career, there were certain things that, um, I took the initiative in. Um, of course, as well, my mom having been in the medical field, so, like, when they started high school, I would make... I made sure they got EKGs, which is a prominent thing now that, uh, the State of Florida is m- requiring. I just knew that, um, there were just different things regarded to the, to the industry that you wanted to know about. Unfortunately, um, brain health was not one of those things. Um, and so they'd get out there, they'd play, and they would, you know, get their bell rung and, you know, you'd be like, you know, "Get up." And especially if it was a playoff game and you're cheering them on, of course you make sure they're okay. But it's not one of those injuries that you can see, like a broken arm or a broken leg, to where you realize, um, instantly that there needs to be some immediate care provided to. That is something that came along later, unfortunately. And I'm educated, you know. I, I have multiple degrees, um, and I was a very engaged and active parent. So that w- is what I think the biggest takeaway, uh, for me,
um, in youth sports is, is that we just don't know enough. We... And I didn't know enough about repetitive head impacts and what they could, um, result in, you know, CTE or other brain, you know, health issues. So that is my, my, my single most important mission at this point in my life, to make sure that Ray Ray's living and death is not in vain, and that I can share this information with other mothers and fathers, um, and sports enthusiasts. Because none of us, um, want to see anyone's children being impacted adversely by a sport and game that we all love so much. So education is key, and coaches and commissioners and athletic directors and trainers and, um, officials all need to do their part in ensuring safety in football so that we can enjoy it and that people have a quality of life thereafter.
And so,
you know,
we don't know what we don't know.
For sure.
And you were raised in the era of
CTE, I'll say it, you know, when it started becoming a thing.
And so you were a mother that was aware of it and knew about it. And so you took the medical, you took every advantage you could
to hold that back and to do the best for your son. Am, am I saying that correctly? And-
Yes
... you, you didn't go in there blindly like most parents.
Right. I wasn't completely blind. I didn't... I, I, I knew the, the letters. I knew the acronym. Um, n- it wasn't completely, you know, educated or informed on what it meant and what it was. Um, from a very simplistic standpoint, I knew that, um, I thought it came from concussions, not just repetitive head impacts. I thought it was, you know, from concussions, um, and it was tied to football. Um, today I know, um, more in the sense that, again, it's not just from concussions. It is from repetitive head impacts, and it's not just from football. It comes from any contact or collision sport. So, um, I- While football is the particular arena and playing field for my sons, um, they're, it's impacted by, you know, soccer and headbutting of balls and hockey and boxing. So I think it, it's, again, it's important to recognize it's not a football disease or, you know, issue, if you will. It's related to contact and collision sports across the board.
This episode of the Head Rush podcast is brought to you by the Patrick Risha CTE Awareness Foundation. Their goal is to, to spread awareness about the dangers of RHI, repetitive head impacts, after losing their son, Patrick, to CTE. Sadly, there are too many like Patrick that have lost their families, jobs, and sometimes their lives. And this foundation is working hard to stop the devastation than, that can come from not protecting the brain. This foundation provides parents of school-age children with information about the dangers of sports, concussive sports, and activities which involve head trauma.
They advertise on social media, print media, and billboards. Please follow them on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, and share their ads with others. And please visit their website, stopcte.org, to find ways to help people recognize the disease if confronted with it in their family and how to prevent the suffering that can come to families when a brain is damaged. The website has medical forms to take to doctor's visits and advocacy letters if you want to help make change in your community. And their most recent campaign is geared up to help coaches build brain-healthy teams. You can use the information on stopcte.org website to understand CTE, live with CTE, and prevent CTE. Please visit. Thank you. And don't knock it,
stop C-
There you go
... stopcte.org. Correct. And that's where I got to... You know, I'm almost to the point that I hate talking about CTE,
because the only time you get diagnosed CTE is when you're dead.
Yes.
So
I like repeated head impacts. I like traumatic encephalopathy syndrome, which I am diagnosed TES.
Um, been through the CTE Evaluation Center. As a matter of fact, I go next week
down to San Antonio to see my doctor and get my annual evaluation and everything they run me through. Now,
you have, is it 2 other boys or 3?
I have 2 other biological sons with Ray. Ray and I had 3 sons together. But I also have an adopted son, uh, Ben DeLuca, who, um, played football as well, um, for his whole life. His father was a football coach and played himself, um,
before Ben, you know, came with me. And he played for the Chargers. Um, so he played collegiate Division I, and he even went to the NFL, had a stint in the NFL, and then he went to the UFL, um, or what's the XFL, um, now. So all 4 of them have been playing, um, for their whole lives since they were-
So-
... 5 or 6
... do you worry about them at all, or have they been... I mean, what... I'm sure you still worry about Ray.
And-
Absolutely
... anything coming up and above?
I think you just said something very poignant to me, um, when you were just sharing about, you know, having to go for your follow-up in San Antonio. I think it's important, um, that we know where the resources are for those that we may suspect or just out of the abundance of caution. Um, as a mother, I would love to take my sons, um, my other sons to get them screened or to get them, you know, checked or to get them looked at. Because to your point, you're only diagnosed with CTE once you are deceased. Um, it's not something that can be formally diagnosed while you are living. But if there are opportunities to, you know, be, to get that information to determine, um, that there is potential, you know, there because you do have risk factors and what have you, that would be great information for people like me to know. I would love to know who those doctors are so that I can, again, take my sons for screenings.
Well, I go to San Antonio to UC Health, or not UC,
um-
San Antonio-
Southwestern
... UT Southwestern,
um, Health, the Glenn Briggs Institute, and see Dr. Jeremy Tanner, who works directly with Ann McKee and Michael Lasko and have been on many of the research with them. And I think there's 8 in the nation, uh-
There's 8 or 9 in it-
Right. Philly-
... of those centers
... Philly has one. Ain't there one in Florida?
Um, I don't know. I-
Oh, you don't know?
No, I should. I should know. I'm... He's been trying to get me on the, uh, um, research and, uh, you know, uh, the, the track of diagnosis and so on, so on and so forth.
But Boston University also does it. Um, there's like 8, 8 colleges out there that... Uh, UNLV has it.
I just found out they got one in Vegas. Um, and what it does is they go do MRI, blood work. They do-
Neurological evaluations, they do everything. And then, like, I gotta be there on the 15th and we're there for probably 7 hours.
Okay.
And then we'll go to the coast, hang out, and then I come back on the 20th and meet with Dr. Tanner and do some more other tests and find out where, what's happened over the last year.
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Uh, Florida's actually requiring E- EKGs for, for the kids, for all kids when, uh, probably all, all sports, I'm, I'm sure. Do they, uh, require any, um, baseline for neurological testing yet?
They do not. So-
No
... um, there's an organization called Who We Play For that has been moving, uh, full speed ahead, um, in terms of getting the EKGs, um, part of the requirements here in the State of Florida. And Evan, um, who runs that organization, has done a remarkable job, him and his team, with that. Um, I currently am working with Bruce Parkman, though, and Representative Kimberly Daniels out of Duval County, um, to do a bill for informed consent. So, um, it was really Bruce's, uh, baby. I make sure I give him full credit. And, um, we've kinda collaborated and tweaked it and modified it a little bit, um, and kind of made it the, uh, Mac Parkman and Ray Lewis III Act that we're hoping will get introduced into legislation, um, in 2026. The bill was filed, um, recently. And so we are working with Representative Daniels, and I'm not sure who's sponsoring it on the Senate side of the House just yet. But we are looking forward to have the opportunity to bring this information to Florida legislation, um, and hopefully it will be voted in in 2026.
Sure.
And essentially, it's, the bill is for informed consent. So just like parents go and register their children for youth sp- youth sports, um, and they have to sign paperwork based in, you know, informing them on concussions and heat-related illnesses, as well as, um, sickle cell, then they will have informed consent about repetitive head impacts and that it could potentially result in CTE. Just so that whether, whether it triggers them to go learn more or if it just, you know, puts it at the forefront, letting them know. I mean, of course, you know, playing football can, you can get a broken bone, a broken leg, or what have you. They need to know that it can impact their children's brains as well. If they continue to sign them up, then great. Um, but hopefully they will take preventative measures, or at least in the event when there are concussions, we're not just pushing them back out there, that you take the proper protocols for the brain to heal.
I've been preaching that for years.
He-- That's a powerful step because he has been preaching that.
And to Bruce. So I'm glad to see Bruce has run with it like Bruce can.
Well, it's, it's all... You know, he's been saying, "Hey, b- before they step on the field, the parents and the player need to go through that three-hour class of exactly..." You know, like you said, the heat illness, the, the rep- repeated head impacts, so on and so forth. All that stuff. Now,
I, I think, I, uh... And, and correct me if I'm wrong. You still have one of the, one of the boys playing football. Uh, he's of age, though, I believe. Is, is he playing semi-professional or, or both of them?
So actually 2 of them. So Rahsaan Lewis, um, he is, um, Ray and I's youngest son. And Rashad Lewis, he's our middle son. They both, um, just completed the season playing overseas. So Rashad was playing in Switzerland, um, with the Argovia Pirate- Pirates. And Rahsaan was playing in, um, Austria, in Austria, um, for the Salzburg Ducks. So they just finished their seasons. Rashad's team actually won their championship over there, so Ray went over and supported, um, and was, was there for his championship game. So he's waiting on his ring.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but yes, so they played last season. I don't know if they will play again, um, in the upcoming season, but they are still currently training in preparation.
So
since their eldest brother was diagnosed with CTE, what has that done for them in playing? And I'm sure they're eating omega-3s like crazy. They're doing everything they can to reduce their head injuries. But what differences have you seen in your boys and their playing after losing their older brother?
So, um, it's been interesting. So I'll, I'll give you... It's been different with the 2 of them. So at the time of Ray Ray's passing, Rashad, my middle son, had stopped playing football. He, um, had started his, uh, collegiate career at the, at Utah State and then transferred to the University of Maryland. And once he graduated from University of Maryland, then he had kind of hung up his cleats. He didn't try to go to the NFL. Um, he had agents that were trying to get him to go to, you know, pro days and combines, and he was like, "No." Um, that whole experience
at the University of Maryland, um, with, uh, Coach Durkin and his teammate, Jordan, that passed away on the football field and that whole toxic culture thing that ESPN had, you know, ha- had going, had done a number on Rashad prior to Ray Ray passing. So he wasn't playing when Ray Ray passed. Um, he picked his cleats back up after Ray Ray passed, which was extremely unexpected. But for him, it was how he...
I think the way he explained it to me was how he felt close to Ray. Um, he felt like he was channeling Ray's energy, um, on the field. And it was something that he knew Ray loved so much, he wanted to kind of carry the torch for Ray. So that was very unexpected -
Mm-hmm
... that he ran towards football when Ray Ray passed. My other son was still in his 5th year. He had graduated from the University of Kentucky, but he had a 5th year of eligibility, and he transferred to Georgia Southern. So, um, Ray Ray passed that June. He, he was, you know, to start, um, fall, you know, fall and stuff in July, training and ready for the season, and he struggled tremendously. I don't think he ended up touching the field at all that year. He just couldn't... Um, he, he really struggled with, with Ray Ray's passing and all that came with it. Um, so when we had our 1st, um, RO3 Foundation event and Dr. Nowinski was there from the Concussion Legacy Foundation, Rahsaan, my youngest one, um, that couldn't get through that last season, he took to heart a lot of the information. Um, again, CTE was something they had heard of, but that they didn't really know a whole lot about. So it wasn't until they were introduced to Dr. Nowinski, um, at that 1st event where Rahsaan really started questioning things that he was feeling and that he was experiencing and, you know, trying to replay and different things. And so there was a disconnect for them for a while. Uh, but I, I guess ultimately though, at the end of the day, their love and passion for the game, for the sport that they... has been such an intricate part of their lives, of their whole lives, um,
just continued to kind of pull them.
But I definitely see, um, a difference in them in terms of how they pursue it. They definitely talk more about it. Um, when Rashad was in Switzerland and he was being interviewed by some media over there, um, and I kind of got wind of the story and looked, and he was educating over in Europe about CTE. So the people there, you know, he was out there playing, but he was talking about what happened to his brother. He was talking about... And there are just certain things he won't do. Um, so if he feels, you know, like he's got a, you know, concussion or what... or not a concussion, but like if he's had a hit that was kind of... You know, he speaks up. He advocates for himself now. He's like, "Listen, I, I need to get this checked." You know, whereas before, you would just try to stay in the game because you felt like your team needed you. You wanted to carry the team on your back and what have you. There is a little more awareness, um, and there are some limits to, I think, um, what they are willing to do. I think that they trap it out of bounds a little quicker versus take that last hit, that extra-
Mm-hmm
... you know, blow. I think they play just a little bit differently, um, 'cause we always just say, "They'll just live to see another day." So, you know, get your yards and get out. Just get your yards and get out.
Y- yeah. You're talking about get your yards and get out, but, uh, people like Ray and myself, defensive players, don't run out of the bounds. Let me crush you.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
And, and it's, uh-
Yes.
Um, yeah. Yeah. So
did you... So they're of age. I, I say 18 years old is of, of age, right? They're, they're above that. Um-
They're 25 and 26.
So, so have you ever said your, your... You know, have you ever tried to persuade them, or obviously they know the dangers of, or you just let them r- walk, walk their own walk?
I try to expose them to the information as much as possible to allow them to make the informed decision. Um, I try to be a resource for them as well as a source of support. Um, it's something that I never, ever, ever want to go through again, you know. But at the same time, I don't want them to live their lives in fear. I want them to live their lives informed. So I'm trying to get them to the Legacy Galas, that Boston Legacy... to the Boston... that they do in Boston-
Mm-hmm
... with the Concuss- Concussion Legacy Foundation. I found that to be very informative. The tour of the bra- brain bank that they do, um, having access to other families who have gone through it directly to kind of have these conversations because they can completely relate. Um,
so I... that's what I've tried to do. I've tried to keep my eye on them for any signs and indications of things that are of concern, um, for, for one. Um, and then for two, I try to surround them with information and, and, um, resources so that they can ask questions for themselves and make informed decisions on what's they feel is best for them. And I just try to be supportive, um, of what their aspirations are and then help them to find the best path forward to do that.
Do you find in, in athletics, es- especially in, in the level that they're playing, uh, e- even the, the, their last couple years of college and then they're playing semi-pro, um, are they finding or do you, uh, do you find that the teams are realizing, hey, less hitting is, uh, better for these guys' health, mental health? Um, like, like Bruce Parkman. I, I love... We, we love Bruce. You know, when, when you say you're working with Bruce-
Yeah
... we're like, "Yay. He's our hero." Right? But, um, you know, he, he, he makes the simple statement of, "Hey, if you don't hit... uh, if you only hit one day a week instead of 5 days a week, you, you reduce the repeated head impacts by 80%." And we all know what that can do. But do... have you found, you know, in, at those levels, they're, uh, being aware of it?
So, um,
what I can say is, you know,
football in, in, in the States is different from football overseas. Um, there's a still love for the game, but how it's executed is a little, just a little bit different. Um, and part of the feedback that the boys have shared or, you know, even while they were there, they would call, as I said, when there were some limits to things they would do, um,
because they're still trying to grow the game over there, soccer being their primary football. But because they're trying to grow American football over there and they're just hungry for it, they're years behind, in my personal opinion. So let me make sure I d- make that disclaimer, this is my opinion, um, in terms of
playing it as safely as possible. Um,
they're,
the, the, one of the, the s- the, the,
one of the sto- one of the s- the, the, the stories, I guess you will, um, or phone calls I've had with them when I, when they were over there was the disbelief of that they were trying to practice 5 days a week, hitting. You know, day before a game, when you just normally would do a walk-through, they were pads and going full speed. And so my son told them like, "N- no." Like, you know, "This, this isn't how you do this." You know? Um, and it, you know, at times even caused some friction with him and, um, the coaching staff. And, you know, at one point he was willing like, "You know, then y'all may need to send me back home." Because he's like, "1st of all, you know, outside..." You know, it, it was the totality of it all, the RHIs, it was the physicality, you know, the, all of it. It just, he's like, "This isn't how it's done." Um, so I can't say that overseas that it's com- w- you know, completely, 'cause they're still trying to rev up the game. They're still trying to, you know, build the, the sport over there, um, to the level that they want. Over here, I can say there are a lot more conversations that I think are happening. Um, when Warren Sapp
came to our 1st year event, our, uh, CTE, uh, brunch that we did year one, he talked about his role with coaching with, uh, Coach Sanders, with, with Deion out in Colorado, and how he was doing things differently, um, with, as a position coach. Um, so I think it takes those type of people having those kinds of conversations, being willing to state it's okay to do it different and you can still be successful and, um, you know, still h- you know, be competitive. But that is what it's gonna take to make it safe. You know, you can't have these, these babies out here, you know, hitting 5 days a week and think that that's okay. You have to modify how these practices are executed. You know, I know they don't do the Oklahoma drills anymore, and you don't do two-a-days anymore at the collegiate level. You know? So it's those type of changes that are going to, uh, be most impactful. My husband, um, Marcus Wimberley, he's the head coach in the Jacksonville area in Orange Park, um, head football coach. And he has, you know, over the years has been modifying, but then especially since Ray Ray passed, um, it has taken a toll on him as a coach and how he's approached practice and how he looks at doing things and what's most important, um, in terms of safety. So I think it's gonna take continuous conversations, podcasts like this, webinars, um, you know, foundation events like the summit that, uh, Bruce does, the three-day motivational weekend that we do for RL3. Um, you know, just all the different
organizations that have a vested interest, um, in this continuing to make noise, good noise, um, about
how to, how to do it safely.
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Well, and you just answered one of the questions I was getting ready to ask, is that your husband's a coach, Ray's a Hall of Famer, your boys are playing. But between, and you being a matriarch to football kind of,
you know, I don't think you're old enough to be called matriarch, but-
... but you're-
I'm older than I look. But thank you, I'll take that.
You're football royalty. You're football royalty. Um,
and you mentioned how your husband now, how he has changed his methods in coaching because of all of this. How about Ray? How ha- I don't know if he's spoken up about it, if he's open about it with his ties to the NFL, or how he thinks now and what he does.
And if you don't-
So-
... wanna say what he thinks or thoughts, that's fine.
And so I definitely don't wanna speak for Ray.
R-
Um, Ray speaks very well for himself.
Um, but what I can say, um, as parents,
um, you know, that the grieving, uh-
... process, um,
has been
difficult for, for both of us. Um, and we, we grieve a little bit differently. Um, my method of managing my grief has been pouring everything I have into getting answers, into making sure that, um, there is change associated with Ray Ray's name. That is, you know, how I process and connect the dots to why God let this happen and how I got here and why us. You know, um, I'm a firm believer in my faith, and to who much is given, much is required. And despite this very painful loss, we are a blessed family. So, I try to channel those things, um, into making a difference. And Ray does the same in his own way. So, outside of the RL3 Foundation and prior to the RL3 Foundation, he had his foundation, A Ray of Hope. And so I do know that he has been using that to focus on the mental health aspects, um, that, um, im- you know, are inclusive of, you know, CTE. So, he has been doing, definitely as he goes around the country and speaking and what have you, he has been sharing Ray Ray's story in his own way and, uh, continuing to bring awareness. Um, last week, um, when University of Miami played Florida State, go Canes, he, um, had his RL3 hat on, you know, primetime to make sure that in little subtle ways that we are continuing to bring visibility to, to the cause. So, he's definitely, um, doing things his way, um, but he, as we all know, Ray speaks very well and very loudly, um, in his own way. But he has... You know, he's very much a part of RL3. We are co-founders of this foundation and our events that we do annually in June, he is there, and we are, um, engaged in the community to bring awareness from, you know, from a grassroots level up to, you know, the higher echelons of the industry. But then he also, um, has his foundation, A Ray of Hope, that he uses in his hometown of Lakeland, as well as Baltimore and other areas to kind of bring awareness to mental health as a whole.
So, you mentioned Dr. Nowinski. Um-
Yeah.
Um, so I, I, I was having a que- a conversation with him, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, before he was Dr. Nowinski. He was just Chris to me. So but we're sitting, we're sitting in a owner's box at a football game, and he's ta- and I know his stance. I, I had been through the biomarker test 10 years ago at Boston University trying to find bio- biomarkers for CTE. I, I, at, at 47 years old, my brain kind of went bonkers. So, I knew what was going on and, uh, but I told Chris, I was sitting there that r- right in the middle of the game, and I said, "Hey, Chris, I know it was not good to run my head into a 300 pound guy over and over and over and over again, but I chose this, Chris. You know, I, I, you know, I gotta take some of the blame." And he says, "Well, Paul, think about the 7-year-old kids that the, the parents strap the helmets on." And he, he didn't say this 10 years ago, but Corey and I have grown to know that the myelin sheath that protects the brain is not even d- developed in the prefrontal cortex until your late teens, maybe mid-20s.
So,
I've, I've morphed from my idea of, okay, it's football and, you know, we, we take, we take the damage and, uh, with the good. But in, in going to, oh, you know what? You know, flag football is a great resource until you're 14 years old. And now I'm like-
15.
He's 15. And now I'm like... And, and, and, um, we were talking to Brett Favre. He, he, he came on. He started trying to get tackle football out of the peewee leagues 2 years after he retired in his hometown.
And
I'm, I'm to the point where, and I've, I've said it before, where if the parents are educated about the brain health and w- awareness and the mental health issues and the, and the brain damage that can be caused by repeated head impacts, and they still let their s- their kids strap on a helmet at 7 years old, that's a problem.
How, how are you-
So, Paul-
Yeah.
Go ahead. Ask the question.
No, I was just... How, how do you feel about, you know, peewee football at, at this point?
So, I, I share your sentiments. Um,
I think it is the most counterintuitive thing that we do in hindsight as parents who spend our lives protecting our children, right? We, we spend our lives teaching them the stove is hot, don't touch, to look both ways before they cross the street, you know, all these things to ensure their safety. But then we put them out there in tackle football, um, where they're at risk for these repetitive head impacts.
Um, so to your point, yes, if you are like my sons now making the decision to go out and play, that's their right, their choice. And I... You know, and there's a level of responsibility that they would then have to assume for any consequences. But- It was 100%, um, my responsibility, mine and Ray's, if you, you know, as the parents, for putting them out there and introducing them. They don't know at 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, le- you know, the consequences, you know, cause and effect. You know, it's m- it was our role and our responsibility as parents. And so had I had the information,
I may have made a different decision. I can't say, you know, 100% or definitively that I would not have because, you know, again, we still signed the paperwork about concussions and put them out there and let them play. We signed the paperwork about heat illnesses and put them out there and let them play. And that's what Rashad's teammate at the University of Maryland ultimately ended up, you know, it stemmed from a heat-related illness. He was out there, he was overheated, got a body, you know, temperature 105, went to... And then his liver shut down, liver failed, and he passed away. You know, so these things, you still know the risk. Um, I think the challenge was not knowing, per se, the risk. Um, so
w- are parents gonna, still gonna do it?
Well, it-
Once they sign that letter of informed consent, absolutely-
It's-
... they are, um, unfortunately, because nobody really thinks it's gonna happen to them. You, you always think it's gonna be somebody else. You just... That, I don't know if that's just human nature, you know, wh- which law that that applies to, you know, but you never think it's gonna happen to you until it does. Um, and then once it does and it's experiential, you have a different level of respect, you have a different outlook, you have a different world view. Um, so there will be some parents, many parents, probably most parents, that will still read the informed consent and allow their children to play. The hope will then be that in the event that they do get hit, you know, or, or, uh, they see a player hit, that the parent will then be responsible, like, "No, pull them out." You know, and not let them continue to play. Take them to get the screening, get the concussion protocol, make them sit out the 2, 3, 4 weeks, whatever is required for full healing. We wouldn't throw them back out there, you know, with a broken leg in 2 weeks before it's fully healed. So hopefully the informed consent gives a different level of awareness, makes them more cognizant, um, and more engaged to try to prevent. Maybe they will then speak up more to the coaches, "No, my son's not gonna be out here hitting 5 days a week." You know? So that's, that's part of the hope because it's not gonna... It... I don't think it's going to... There may be some that will be like, "Absolutely not." No, they're not playing anymore because, you know, they're just... They, they probably d- they don't really want to play anyway. They're already afraid of the contact and what have you, and that will take them over. Um, but then there will be the m- the most where they'll be aware of it, you know, and hopefully will do some things differently. And then there's those that still live vicariously through their kids, and no matter what we say or do, they're gonna put them out there and hope that they're gonna be the next Ray Lewis, you know, even though it's less than 1% chance that that's going to happen, um, because they're hoping for this better life, um, through their kids.
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Let's begin again with your brain. And see, this is where you touch a chord with me, and that's why you saw me jerk a little bit.
A letter of informed consent, "Here, sign this before your kid can play."
Not making sure they read it, not making sure anything, just sign here in order... If you want your kid to play-
Okay
... you sign. You know, to where
I think there needs to be a video or a three-hour seminar and have people like yourself or Mac Parkman or Paul, um, talk about this
and make that part of the informed consent, is that
the participants and the parents need to be part of that.
Because we've all talked about... I, I live in Texas. Football is God here.
Mm-hmm.
Well-
Yeah
... God is God, but football-
I know what you mean
... comes before family in Texas.
Lord G. God. Lord G. God.
And so you look at it, and it's...
You either got
mama that's gung-ho football and dad's okay, or you got dad that's gung-ho football and mom okay. You have them both there. One of them's gonna be somewhat logical.
And you show them pictures of damaged brains
and say,
"Mac Parkman, 17 years old, this is what his brain looked like." You know,
"Patrick Richa, this is what his brain looked like at 23. Ray Ray, this is what his brain looked like." And you show it and then say, "Okay, now if you want your son to play football,
sign here."
Mm-hmm.
So, Corey, you will be pleased to know that it is not as simple as just a form. I gave you the very short, abbreviated version.
Okay.
But there are other elements to the informed consent bill that was submitted, inclusive of having an RHI day, um, having a CTE day, a different time. And so the, um, CTE day we were suggesting would be in June. The RHI day would be in September, giving, uh, 2 specific times of year where we are providing that education and awareness, um, just like you've got mental health awareness, you know, month and, you know, all the other, you know, da- days of designation. Um, but there would be also that education piece for the adults, um, that are affiliated with sports, so that they would have to be required to have trainings, just like coaches have to have concussion training, and they have to have CPR training, and they have to have defibrillator training, all those different things. They would have to have CTE training and CEUs. So those elements are a part of the bill. Um, I just gave you the abbreviated-
Short version
... informed consent.
And that's awesome, yeah.
But those are aspects that we have included in there, and it would need to be through, you know, some type of certified or, you know, um,
CTE-affiliated organization, whether it's the, you know, RL3 Foundation, B- the Boston CTE Center, CLF, Concussion Legacy Foundation, Bruce Parkman. And there were some others that Bruce named that he wanted in there that I was not personally familiar with, but the-
Stop CTE.org I'm sure is in there
... some examples of organizations that they could turn to so the state could consider how to establish those requirements.
It, it, it's definitely a, a, it's a, it's a huge cultural thing. You know, you're talking about the, you know, th- the hearing about it and saying, "Oh, okay." And, but until you see it, you know, and, and yank him off the field, or he, he or she off the field and say, "Hey, that's it." Uh, and, you know, and, and I can talk a good game and say, you know, "No pee-wee football." But if I had a son, and I didn't start playing football until 14 years old, but I ha- if I had a son that was able to play football and just
wanted to play football, you know, I don't know what I would... I can't say what I would do, but I, I sure wish and hope that I would have the backbone enough to say, "No,
n- not, n- not, not until you're of age to really..." Th- there's so many things you can do for your... to get better with your agilities. The, the, the 4-
Yes
... the 4 cone drills that we did-
Building muscle memory
... thir- 30, 38 years ago.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly. Speed training, they can do speed training. And flag football, I'm really ho- it's becoming a little more popular, and once it makes it to the Olympics, I'm really hoping that there is a push to make it the thing, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So that-
Mm
... you know, kids are driving or gravitating more towards flag football in those formative years, which will then help them still learn the game, the rules, um, and footwork, agility, you know, hand-eye coordination, all of those different things, so that then they can progress, you know, um, in a meaningful way to the next aspect of contact at that 14, 15-year-old range and not feel like they're so far behind the 8 ball, um, that they can't keep up. Um, but I, I think that it's how we promote it, you know, um, how we advertise it, how we partner and market it, um, to kinda get it out there and make it attractive, um, and fun so that they realize maybe this is the 1st step, this is the introductory road, the preliminary road I need to take to get into, to contact, um, so that I'm as best prepared physically, you know, inclusive of, you know, um, the, the brain safety, you know, mental health aspect of all of it, you know? But it's gonna continue taking everyone raising their voice about it and being on the same page.
Well, you know what? I gotta give the NFL some kudos.
They won't acknowledge CTE for nothing. Even though Shane Tamura was diagnosed with CTE, they won't acknowledge it because the minute they acknowledge it, if they don't have a cure, it's billions of dollars.
So, but you know what they are doing? NFL flag football.
They had the championships here at AT&T Stadium.
So they are promoting flag football. And that I will give 'em kudos for, is that they're not going 100% the wrong direction and going, "Well, you know what? We're gonna have a pee-wee championship at Tampa Bay Buccaneers Stadium and Dallas Cowboys Stadium in Seattle."
Well-
That they're now actually pushing their own NFL agenda into flag football, which of course we know is still the same, but, eh, at the same point, they're promoting it.
Mm-hmm. This episode of the Head Rush podcast is brought to you by our personal doctor and team of doctors, uh, Dr. Maiz- Maizelle DeMeo, and she's with the Paradise Behavioral Health. And we are in the-
BrainWell program, which is also part of the Millennium Health Center. Uh, Dr. Mark Gordon, you've seen him on Joe Rogan and even on our show, the Head Rush podcast. Um,
and, uh, hormones. And Maizelle is awesome. We love her.
She's, she's our doctor of psychiatry. She works with the Mark Gordon program with the hormones and, uh, and she j- she adds her twist of genetics and, um, and it's, it's, it basically is melding 2 wonderful, uh, uh, mediums together. And we're getting great help from Dr. Maizelle DeMeo.
So please check out her website at paradisebehavioral.com.
She's-
Look up the Brainwell program, get involved. Eat-
She's sponsoring us. They're, they're sponsoring us for the next year, so we are excited to, to have them on board and, uh, and, and shout the new- the good news to everybody, uh, that is watching these broadcasts. So...
Is she helping you, Paul?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
She's helping me, so go check her out. Paradisebehavioralhealth.com.
But what I can say is that through the NFL Foundation, um, they have a lot of programs that they are supporting in the community, um, from a social justice standpoint, from a youth standpoint, and from a community engagement standpoint.
Right.
So there are organizations like ours, like the RL3 Foundation, who do support CTE that can reach out, um, because of our connections and relationships, um, with the NFL for support. And they are, through the NFL Foundation, supporting, um, these different, you know, programs and organizations, you know, um, and the different passions of the individual players. They do a great job at supporting player foundations and so forth as well. So
I don't know, you know, what's inclusive of their strategic plan long term, you know, and what they do. I'm, I'm just not, um, intimately involved in that capacity and, you know, and haven't been for years. So, um, but I do know that, um, they are engaged, that they are supportive, that they do have relationships, um, and so hopefully they will continue to do more.
Right.
You know?
Tiana, your 1st born son, Ray Ray, he was a dynamic, charismatic, loving,
generous...
You, you, you, you use the word impartiality. He treated everybody
like him, like the, the same.
Yes.
Um-
Ray Ray was one of a kind in that regard. I think that was one of the
biggest takeaways, um, as I stood at his home-going service, um, and I looked out into that church where there were hundreds of people, um, hundreds of people that were there for Ray Ray. And I say hundreds, it was really close to about 1000. And sure, there were a few that were there, um, in support of, uh, me and Ray, um, but by and large, people that I had never seen before came up to me, could tell me a story about something Ray Ray shared with them that I knew to be true.
Um, people, you know, slipped into my instant messengers and, and told me stories. People sent gifts and all kinds of things to the funeral home with stories about their interactions with Ray Ray directly. And these are people from all ages, from all races and nationalities, from all socioeconomic backgrounds, uh, from all religions and faiths. Ray Ray was not a respecter of person. He was someone that embraced all people, whether they were homeless or whether they were up in Canton, you know, with his dad. You know, he loved people and he just did not discriminate. He saw the best and the good in everyone. People who may have had addiction or people who, you know, who, you know, were Bible-toters. From, from... It didn't matter, you know, where, where they were in this spectrum of life. Ray Ray just always saw the good in people. He was... And that was such a life lesson in that moment for me, you know, to see in his 28 years something that we as adults can't seem to get right, you know, especially in this day and age. Um, and he just saw the good in people. He... And so that has been something that has dwelled in my spirit. And so that word impartiality was intentional, um, when we established his website because that was truly the essence of who he was.
Tell-
Just loved people, he loved life, and he was very impartial.
Tell us how you carry on his legacy and grow his legacy through the RL3 Foundation.
So we established the RL3 Foundation, and those that are interested can go to the website, which is rl, the number 3, foundation.com. And it is to bring awareness to CTE and related mental health issues, um, such as, as you stated in the introduction, things related to substance misuse or abuse, uh, suicidal ideation, behavioral, cognitive issues, all those things that come in play with mental health issues. Um, we have a fentanyl epidemic going on in this world, so when these, you know, young men who are, don't, you know, having these, these, these issues related from CTE are getting a hold of these substances out here in the streets, they think they're getting one thing and they're getting another that's laced with something, and one pill can kill. And, um, so the foundation tries to support all those things in ways that are reflective of Ray. Ray loved football and kids, and he loved music. Music was his outlet, um, as he would write music and perform music and original lyrics based on things that he'd experienced in his life. So the RL3 Foundation, we do a motivation weekend the 1st weekend in June every year. Next year, it will be June 5th through the 7th. It's always in Orlando, and it's encompass- it encompasses, again, weekend of events, including CTE Sneaker Ball, where we bring in, um, various, um, experts and subject matter experts and families. Um, so we had Corey Brown's family there this year that shared a very emotional, impactful story of how their father is living, um, with- ... presumably CTE and how that's impacted their family. Um, so we try to educate, uh, you know, about what CTE is. We try to have some fun with our football activities. Ray and various NFL players, former players come out and coach the kids. And, um, we host a 7-on-7 tournament for high school football teams. It's open to all high schools that want to, to register to come and participate, and they win CTE prevention grants or awareness grants, um, because our high schools are underfunded. So we've got coaches that are out there having to share helmets with players, which means they're not... you know, they're being overused. Um, they're... they have to be reconditioned. They need guardian caps. They need all these different, you know, testing for concussion protocols. So we provide funding to the teams that win 1st and 2nd place on our 7-on-7 tournament for, for those specific uses, um, in their football program. And then we close the weekend with a music festival because, as I said, Ra- Ray Ray loved music, and music is a... has a healing component, you know, power to it. So... And the music festival, it's a big festival, so it's bi- family-friendly. It's all types of music. We have country. We have gospel. We have R&B. We have hip hop. Um, and that's open to the community. They come out. There's bounce houses for the kids. There's food trucks. Um, you know, Ray is there, and like I say, various other NFL players. So it's a weekend of motivation and education. We provide free Narcan, um, so that y- no questions asked. Um, just we do what we can do to save lives and to bring awareness to, um, CTE and these repetitive head impacts. So we are, um... again, can be found online. We are always looking for sponsorships. W- we are always looking for, um, those families that have been impacted, um, musicians who are aspiring artists that may wanna perform. All the information is available on our website for you to go and, uh, reach out to connect with us. And we hope to continue to do the work, um, and to save lives through the RL3 Foundation.
Thank you so much, Tiana. It's... And I can't thank you enough for coming on today. Um,
Ambia was supposed to be on, the president, but because of an emergency, they can't. Our next episode we're filming today is my wife, Susan Berry, and Brandon... Brandy Winans.
And so this is gonna become a caregiver day-
Mm-hmm
... for about Ray Ray, now my wife, and Brandy coming up.
And I gotta thank you so much for coming on in such quick notice, and I sure do appreciate it. I know we love
and always end the "Head Rush" podcast on a word of hope
because with this disease, I suffer f- I, I don't suffer from CTE, but I got TES, and Paula is suspected.
We love to share the hope and awareness. Can you share with our audience your word of hope?
Oh. So my word of hope is that, um, you know,
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, because there's no way that it is the strength of my own that carries me from day to day since Ray Ray has passed. Um, it is, it is not me that, um, makes it, you know, from one moment to the next. Um, but it is the hope and the strength of a power that is greater than I that gives me the portion of strength that I need, uh, from day to day,
um, because my life has been forever changed by the loss of my son. So I hope that through organizations such as the RL3 Foundation, Mack Parkman Foundation, Concussion Legacy Foundation, and so many others, and through supporters such as you all of your podcast, that we can continue to give hope, information, education to all of those who need it so that they can prevent having to experience the loss of a loved one due to a very preventable disease such as CTE.
T- Tiana, th- th- it, it... every time we have a guest on, we think we can't beat it, but you have outdone
you have outdone, um, just e- everybody that we've had on. So thank you. Uh, it's, it's very... it's a privilege and an honor to, uh, speak with you. Um, and the things that you're doing with RL3, uh, Foundation, uh, uh, um, they're, they're unmatched, and they, they need to be done. Uh, we, we need to yell it from the, from the rooftops, the mountaintops. Um, we're, we're big fans. We'll be, we'll be talking about it. Uh, and we... well, obviously, we, we wanna have you on again someday and, and so you can promote maybe, you know, before some of your, uh, um, your, uh, events. You know, we'll, we'll get you on at, at least to promote and, and talk about it and talk about your... what you're doing. Uh, love, love the initiative of the, uh, signed, uh, consent. Love it, love it, love it. And, uh, uh, love the fact that you're teamed up with somebody like Bru- Bruce Parkman. Um, you guys can move mountains. And, uh-
And I'm sure you know Karen Siegel. And Karen Siegel, the Patrick Krushia Stop CTE Awareness, I'm sure that's... they're on with that with you, um, because Bruce and Karen work very tight together, Bruce, Karen, and Doug.
... and NASH sponsors.
Well, there were some additional names that he gave-
Right
... in terms of organizations that we added to-
Right
... um-
Right
... the, the bill. I don't... I didn't personally know them, but he definitely felt like they would be, um, of value to make sure they were inclusive, so... But I just wanna thank both of you, uh, for thinking of me today. Um, and, you know, I know that God orders my steps and, um, so I'm glad that I was available, um, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. Um, so thank you again for thinking of me and thank you for the, the work that you all are doing to continue to shine a light on this. And whenever I can be of assistance, please don't hesitate to call.
I love it.
Thank-
Thank you.
Thank, thank you, Tiana. So-
I appreciate it. Thank you
... so another, another great episode.
Another great episode.
And, uh-
You know, this is awesome because it seems like all of our great episodes
are from the mothers-
Mm. Well-
... of those affected. Not so much fathers.
No.
Bruce is very passionate. I will give Bruce everything in the world, but man, we had Perry and Bruce on our podcast. Matter of fact, theirs downloads Monday.
And the way Perry, oh my God, speaks-
She's a, she's a mama bear
... to PopMack and-
Mama bear
... everything, it just... It heightens it. It's kinda like I'm sure if Ray Lewis came on and talked about it, he... which I'm sure he would do very passionately, but getting the mother's side of things-
... whoo. That's how you change mountains, is you get mamas involved. Am I right? It's like me. I put my daughter... How old was she when I put her on a sheep?
6?
6 years old, I put her on a sheep in a bucking chute at a junior rodeo and the sheep jerked forward and she banged her head on the chute real bad and started crying. And the gate man looks at me and I said, "Kick the latch." "I paid her entry fee. She's at least gonna hit the dirt." And out she went and hit the dirt. And I sit here... And then I put kids on mini barebacks and I sit there and now I'm sitting there going, "How big of an idiot was I?"
Well...
You know, it's-
That's
... what we don't know is what we don't know.
We don't... Yes. It's... It... There's no manual.
Right.
There's no manual. And, you know, as we live and learn, you know, we can't take back things we've done in the past, but it... we're doing now what we can do. You know, we are-
Yeah
... educating. We're sharing our mistakes and, you know, the things that we've learned, our lessons learned. And hopefully someone will latch on and do it different, you know? But... 'Cause we can't turn back the hands of times, but we're doing what we can do today. And that's-
Praise God
... that's, that's great.
Amen.
So-
Amen.
Thank you, Tiana. It was wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Thank you all.
Appreciate it. You have a good evening.
Y- go ahead.
Thank you. You all as well.
All right.
Mm, bye-bye.
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