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Observations on podcasting: audience trends, insights on podcast growth, new developments, tips, tricks. Hosted by Justin Jackson.
Justin: Hey, everybody.
Welcome to podcast industry news.
In this episode, I wanted to
share a recent conversation I had
with my friend, Matt Stauffer.
And the topic was marketing
tactics for growing a podcast.
This episode also lives
as a video on YouTube.
And some of the things we discuss
actually do require the visual element.
And so if you're listening along in your
car and you're like, "oh, I'd really
like to check that out," be sure to
check out the link in the description.
Other than that, there's lots here in
the audio version that will be helpful.
If you are trying to get
more listeners for your show.
And lots of takeaways, tips, et cetera.
So enjoy this episode with Matt.
Justin Jackson here from Transistor,
and I'm with my friend Matt Stauffer.
How's it going, Matt?
Matt: It's great, man.
Justin: We, we had a typical,
uh, pre, pre show where we were
trying to figure out our audio
and it was me, the problem was me.
Hello, it's me.
I'm the problem, it's me.
Matt: But it only took us 20
minutes and we had lots of good
conversation during the time.
That's right.
Justin: Glad to have you here.
So you are the co owner of Titan, which
is a Laravel agency, is that correct?
And you are also the host
of the Laravel podcast.
Matt: You got it.
Justin: Just for anyone who doesn't
know what Laravel is, maybe just quickly
Matt: describe it.
Yeah.
So Laravel is a full stack web
application development framework for PHP.
So if you're familiar with tech, that
means you've probably heard of things like
rails and express and stuff like that.
This is the PHP version of that.
Justin: Yeah.
And I mean, I think we can, one reason
this is an interesting case study for me.
is Laravel is a sensation.
You and the creator of this
framework, Taylor Otwell, do this
podcast called the Laravel podcast.
This was a podcast you've been
running for a long time, right?
Uh, you recently switched
it to Transistor.
Thank you.
Matt: Thanks for making that happen, man.
Justin: And now, uh, the new
season of this podcast is
with Taylor Otwell and you.
The best way I can describe the way
people are excited about Laravel, it's
like Apple fans, you know, Apple fanboys.
When Taylor Otwell does a keynote
speech, he is Steve Jobs, right?
He has a huge following.
You have quite a big following as well.
So this podcast has the potential
actually to grow quite a bit.
I think that's what's so interesting
about it is I think between the
interest in Laravel in general.
And then the social followings that you
folks have, you have, you have a lot of
audience building going on other places.
Yeah.
So yeah, we're going to see if we
can give you some marketing ideas,
promotion tips to grow the show
basically to get more people who are
interested, passionate about Laravel
listening to the Laravel podcast.
Yeah.
Matt: And further, like to
me, I'm just like the podcast
has been running for years.
We've got a lot of people who like it.
At the time it started, it was like
one of the only pieces of media
out there about Larry Bell, right?
So like, of course,
everybody tunes into it.
And so it still has a lot
of people listening to it.
But the way we share content
and the way we use content has
changed a lot over those years.
And the podcast is still the same thing.
The only thing that I've
added since the beginning.
Is every single one we record on
Riverside, we put the video up on
YouTube, so we both have a YouTube
version and a podcast version beyond that.
Nothing, not a single thing.
It's a tweet that says, hey, the
latest podcast is out and that's it.
And it kind of feels like man, there's
just so much more stuff going on
that we have not taken advantage of.
So yeah, people love the podcast and.
It'd be great if it grows, but
like, I'm happy with the listener
count, but I'm like, I want to
give them more exposure to it.
Like as a person with young kids, like
I don't always get to work through my
podcast, but when my favorite podcast
people put up little snippets or
whatever, I'm like, I'd love that because
maybe I'm 10 podcast episodes behind.
I'm going to listen to
that snippet or whatever.
Right.
So I'm just like trying to get
people more to more to do with it.
You know,
Justin: exactly, exactly.
I have a, I have a, an interesting
crossover here because I did an
episode with Taylor Otwell on our show.
Mm hmm.
And it was our biggest episode ever.
Love it.
So, so let's start in the,
the transistor dashboard.
We'll start, uh, I'll give you an
example from my show and then we'll
go to your dashboard and then we'll
talk about some of the opportunities.
So here's our analytics for
the build your SAS show.
Um, you can kind of see
the arc of our show.
Um, most of it happened in this period
here and this kind of followed the
story of us building transistor.
It makes sense that this would be
kind of the most popular, uh, place.
But if we go down here, you can
break down episodes by first
30 days, all time, et cetera.
But let's look at first 30 days.
And we'll just sort it by, um, you
know, the first, the most popular
Taylor Otwell, most popular in the
first 30 days with 10, 000 downloads.
That's wild, man.
And there was a few reasons for this
that I think, um, we'll get into, uh,
one, uh, Taylor does have a big audience
and he tweeted it, uh, two, it ended
up getting into Reddit as a discussion.
Like it was noteworthy to.
It to be posted there and, um, this
particular one, like this would have
actually been an amazing episode for
you folks to have as your, as your
first episode in the season, because
It this was the story about how he
created the framework and it changed
his life and there's just a lot of
interest in that and it kind of drove a
lot of a lot of folks, uh, by the way,
you can click through on, um, on each
of these and you can see kind of the.
I like looking at this cumulative
chart so you can kind of see the
growth over those first days.
And I mean, you can see in this
case, it got posted, it got
shared a lot during that time.
Uh, we're also going to show you,
this is actually also interesting.
Look how many folks listened on
desktop browser and mobile browser.
Matt: That's very surprising.
So those are not, that's not subscribers.
That's people linking directly
Justin: into this episode.
That was, so my guess is that a
lot of the link got tweeted and a
lot of folks just opened it up on
their desktop and said, I'm going to
listen to this today in the browser.
Even for a small show like ours,
um, that the Taylor Otwell effect
was, was significant, right?
Yeah, I think our third
most popular episode.
So, uh, there's another kind of popular
person in our space named Jason Fried.
He's our second most popular.
And then, um, uh, I think we did a
follow up episode with Taylor and that's
like, it's still in our top, whatever.
So, um, and Jason again and Jason again.
Yeah.
So the, the, the trend there is like,
what's one way to grow a show is to
leverage a high profile guest, a high
profile topic with that guest to kind
of set the stage, bring more people in.
Yeah.
If you look at our, after that
Taylor Otwell episode, we had a
spike and we actually did have a
sustained number of people listening.
So that episode was in April.
So there's the big April
month, but look at it.
It went down, but it was still, we
were down here and then we had quite
a few of those folks stick around.
Matt: You know, one thing that's
interesting is that I've had Taylor on
multiple different podcasts of mine.
Um, I've had him on another podcast.
I do called things with learning.
I've had him on two different
seasons of Lero podcast when
he wasn't my primary person.
And we covered a lot of those same
topics, but I didn't market them.
I didn't name them in the
same way that you did.
So I didn't have that like fricking
PHP and a cheap laptop changed my life
is I would, I would watch, I don't
even know who's talking about it.
And I want to watch that right where I had
the things that were all the same things.
It would be something like.
More about the story of Laravel with
Taylor and it just doesn't catch people
the same way So yes, the marketing man,
the marketing really does something
Justin: the packaging
is is super important.
Yeah So and with with a podcast, I think
you've actually done a really great job.
Let's go back to your show now here
Let me show So let's go back here.
So one thing you've done a really
great job on is the packaging
of the show looks great.
You've got really nice show art.
The website looks great.
You have, um, episode specific art.
One thing I would recommend here
in terms of the packaging is faces.
If you can get faces in there, they do.
Matt: Convert wondering because we if
you look at the last season, I had the
faces because it was a different guest
every time and I was like, do I just
put both of our faces on all of them?
And I guess the answer
Justin: is yes.
Yeah, I think I would because
these episode episode artwork
shows up in different places.
Um, we're gonna be talking
a lot about search today.
Faces do convert better.
One reason faces convert better.
is search engines and search engine
optimization on the web is mostly
for optimizing Google search engine
optimization for podcasts is thinking,
how does my podcast search up?
How does my podcast perform on search
queries in Spotify, Apple podcasts,
YouTube, and places like that.
And so Taylor Otwell, and then if you
look at the episodes that show up Taylor
Otwell, the business of Laravel 2022,
that's Taylor and I Taylor Otwell.
Here's Taylor on stage, um, instantly,
as soon as you can see, if people
recognize the Taylor Otwell, Otwell
face, there's a better chance of
them saying, okay, this is the, it,
it almost immediately communicates.
Oh, Taylor's a guest on this
episode, like this one here.
Is this just them, you know, doing
a biography on him or something?
Uh, this is like, okay, he's a guest
and, um, an episode artwork is now
shows up in Apple podcasts and Spotify.
And this is something I would
do like if people want to know,
like what podcast is Taylor out?
Well, on what podcasts.
Is Matt Stopper on?
And also, the other thing
to search is Laravel.
And let's just see what shows up, right?
All
Matt: right, so we got it on the podcast.
You got it on the podcast.
I gotta figure out some way for
that podcast to show up when
you search his name though,
because it didn't show up there.
Justin: Yeah, so this is
another packaging thing.
So right now the show is
listed as Matt Stauffer.
And
Matt: if we updated it
Justin: for the latest season.
And if we go down to here, um, that
would be where I would add it right here.
Matt: Show owner, okay.
Is it owner or author that shows
Justin: up there?
Because I see.
Uh, oh, sorry, uh, this
would be the author.
Correct.
So the, the owner is the contact
information, um, for mostly
for verification purposes.
Yeah.
Author is who's this podcast by.
Got it.
So adding, uh, Taylor Otwell
and Matt Stauffer, um, then in
those search results, uh, it
will start to show up like that.
The other thing to, uh, maybe
update in the future, this would
be quite a heavy lift, but we have
this people, um, section here.
And people is now a supported,
um, tag within podcast RSS feeds.
So if we go to the build your SAS
podcast and we go to people, um, we
could, and I searched for Taylor.
There he is.
So.
Taylor Otwell, this metadata is in
the RSS feed and we can also then
filter by the episodes he's on.
Love that.
Uh, this just, it also gives
you another, um, for search
engine optimization on Google.
It gives you another place
for people to find, you know,
episodes with Taylor Otwell.
And, um, more and more of the
independent podcast apps are
supporting these people tags.
So, uh, for example, if they're using
a search engine like, um, listen notes,
um, they, they would be able to find
people just using these tags here.
Awesome.
So a little bit of a heavy lift because
you're gonna have to go back through all
of your episodes and add these folks.
Matt: I have a VA.
So there you go.
That's how I'm able to do
all this with the podcast
Justin: is VAs.
And let me show you something cool here.
This will make it a little bit faster.
You just put Taylor Otwell in there.
Load from Twitter.
It scrapes it all.
Nice.
Use this information.
Choose role co host or guest and then
you just choose all of the episodes that
you want to Apply him to so yeah, you're
doing well if people are searching for
Laravel in Spotify you're right at the
top and The I think the one where you
could really Uh, this is pretty common.
People go, you know, I want
to, I just want to hear a
bunch of episodes with Taylor.
So how do I find those?
And um, yeah, this is where
I think you could got it.
Adding Taylor Otwell as the author
will help you out quite a bit.
Let's go over here.
This is interesting.
Um, so this is Spotify's.
Uh, survey, but so I think these
are, these are the options they
gave people, but top methods for new
podcast discovery, hearing about it
on a podcast they already listened to.
So in your ecosystem, I think a
simple email you could write is to
write all your buddies and just say,
Hey, Aaron Francis, Hey, Caleb, Hey,
Colborne, Hey, all these people.
And just say, could you
do, we're trying to.
Let people know that the
level podcast is back.
Could you mention it in your next
episode and you folks have so much
goodwill You've got lots in the in
your in your bank your social bank.
I think you could call in some
favors and Having people mention it.
I think you would get a lot more
People listening just that way
Recommendations from friends and family.
This is just like a built in thing which
is In your episode to be deliberate
about giving people a prompt, which
is just to say, Hey, it's Matt.
We want more people to
find out about the show.
If you have friends that would like the
show, it would mean the world to us.
If you could share the show,
just Laravel podcast dot com.
Um, if you end up like
messaging somebody, let me know.
I'm on whatever and it gives them
this feedback loop and people
are excited about doing it.
The second prompt or trigger that we've
very helpful is let's say that you do
that at the beginning of the episode.
So you just say, Hey, before we get
started, just want to remind you
folks, the show gets people find out
about the show from word of mouth.
If you share it with a
friend, that'd be great.
If you do that, let me know.
And I'll thank you at
the end of the episode.
Then at the end of the episode,
you say, thanks to the folks
this week who shared the podcast.
On Twitter or whatever, and you
read out the names people love,
love, love having their names
read out at the end of an episode.
That's awesome.
Um, this has also been
our Patreon strategy.
We have these 15 supporters that
have, even though our podcast is
now infrequent, very few people.
Uh, you know, very few new episodes.
These folks just love having their name
shouted out at the end of the episode.
And I've heard from some of these folks
that have been around for a long time.
They tell me like people recognize me at
conferences, like I got DMs from people.
So people really like this format
of just, we'd like to take a moment
to thank people who have shared
the show or reviewed the show.
And it creates this nice feedback loop
where it's like someone's listening going.
Oh, I'm going to do that now because.
So two reminders, one at the
beginning, one at the end, you
could automate this if you wanted.
We have dynamic ad insertion.
So you could create an ad called Matt's
pre roll and it could just be, uh,
Hey, please share this with a friend.
And you just upload audio where you
say that and it will automatically.
Insert that audio at the beginning
of every episode you've ever done.
Um, it's also nice having these, uh,
eventually, I think this will be helpful
for both of you because for example,
you just, you're an author, right?
You just updated your book.
Um, this is dynamic ads are a
great way to promote a book launch.
And Tim Ferriss, for example, uh, he, he
had someone manually download all of his
episodes, add a little thing like, Hey,
my new book's out and then re upload them.
You can do this dynamically, uh, with your
account and you can mix season in and out.
So once people are tired of hearing,
Hey, please share this with a friend.
You can just switch it
up to something else.
And you can also do mid rolls.
So you didn't want to do At the beginning
you could say you could do it right in
the middle of an episode Okay, let's go
back to Spotify's thing browsing Spotify.
So that's people searching on Spotify
Browsing social media and then
reading articles blogs newsletters
and then rankings and charts So
you can see how it breaks down.
And there's other research
that's similar to this.
So the Edison research, they
put out a study every year.
It's almost always consistently
been, how do you discover new shows?
Searching the internet, social
media posts, recommendations
from friends and family.
So here on that would be the
second thing we'd want to search
is Laravel podcast your number one.
So you love to hear it
It's that's perfect.
Yet.
The next thing to look is Taylor Otwell
podcast and So this is where we We're
going to do some things to start.
Oh, you got one here.
So that's good, right?
Okay.
Matt: Um, Interestingly, that is Taylor
on my other podcast when he was a guest.
So it's, it's really wants his name
in the title to show up for these
Justin: ones.
That's right.
The search engine, the search
engine, especially on podcast
platforms are really quite dumb.
They're optimizing for a podcast title.
First episode title, second description.
So show description.
And then episode description
next and that's it, right?
Most of the attention is on
episode titles and show titles.
So yeah, having his name in
whenever it's applicable is perfect.
I think also you've got this great,
you and him are co hosting right now.
Every once in a while drop somebody who's
kind of hot right now into the mix, right?
Like Get like an Aaron Francis or somebody
that has some vibe going moment and
that can also be helpful When I'm like
doing optimization of all this stuff,
I'm like, what is showing up first?
And here's, this is the
top result right now.
And I think that's interesting to me.
I would almost, if I was you, I
would be trying to unthrown this.
So either on the Titan blog or somewhere
else have Taylor Otwell podcast
interviews and try to try to unseat this.
This, uh, here, and I've done
this quite a bit, you, uh, top
podcasts for Bootstrappers.
Um,
look at that.
This, this is like one way to be able
to list a bunch of episodes and then
drive traffic to love that, because
people just think about yourself.
Like if you just, you live in Switzerland.
And you're just getting into Laravel
and you have a 30 minute commute
and you're like, okay, I want to
like, what am I going to search?
Laravel podcast, Taylor Otwell podcast,
Matt Stauffer podcast, if they read
your book, like you've giving folks
that, um, and that would be interesting.
Matt Stauffer podcast.
So you have a section right here,
so this is great, but you might want
to just if you're focused on Laravel
podcast, put that number one, um,
and you could even, uh, you could
even have a hot episodes section for
episodes you really want to feature.
This is, oh yeah.
So you do have a, uh, a Twitter profile,
um, I would put the, your pinned tweet
should be a video clip highlight.
So build your sass.
I think we did this.
Yeah.
So this is our pin tweet.
And this is just, you'll see,
you know, if you like, listen
to bootstrapping podcasts, then
find us on all these places.
And here's a video that, um,
describes what the podcast is about.
And I think you folks would have
Your video would be even better if it
has your faces on it So then people
are seeing and then that trailer
that little like here's one clip
Then you're gonna put it everywhere.
You're gonna put it as
your when you come here.
It'll be the feature video here.
It'll also Because it's short enough.
You could create a 60 second
version that you can put on
Instagram Reels, Tik Tok, Shorts.
So I started this little demo show
just to test some of this stuff out
and, um, and this is very, very small,
uh, but it's interesting to see the
numbers that some of these things do.
So here's.
Uh, YouTube short.
So here's the original full length YouTube
video, which is only six minutes and
19 seconds long, but it got 411 views.
The short that talks about
the same thing is about 3000.
And then we continue on, uh, here
on Instagram, the short didn't do as
well, but this short here about Google
podcasts being shut down did about 2000.
And then over here on TikTok, it's
so fascinating, um, that the Joe
Rogan one did well here as well.
And the Google podcast one also did well.
And here on Twitter, this clip
also did, um, fairly well compared
to other clips we've done.
Now, this is quite a bit of work to.
Have to do this all the time.
So depending on who you have on your
team and how much time you have But it
seems like an easy win is just to have
here's one clip that really pulls in
the viewer and listener and We're going
to use that clip as the trailer for
our pinned tweet, a reel on Instagram,
a TikTok thing, a short, and then you
get that exposure in one spot, right?
So then at least if someone's searching,
I would be interested to Laravel
on TikTok, what shows up, you know?
Uh, this is also, I've, I've had
success in finding people that
are already posting about Laravel.
It's a little bit more work, but again,
if you have a VA or somebody, just have
them reach out to some of these people and
say, Hey, we're just looking for someone
to tell people about the Laravel podcast.
Again, if you've got so much goodwill
in the community, there might be someone
that's willing to just do it for you.
Just post, you just send them the
clip and you can say, you can say
something about it if you want or not.
But some of these folks might be
willing to share again, maybe just
create an account that says Laravel
podcast, one, one post just to get
things started and then you can leave
it for a while and see how it performs.
Um, but there, there, there's some
debate in podcasting, whether it.
Things like this drive traffic
to the podcast and anecdotally.
I think it's true like people view
clips of Joe Rogan or Theo Vaughn
or any of those but eventually those
a lot of those folks do end up You
know listening to the audio podcast
All right.
How are we doing?
Is this, uh,
Matt: this is fantastic.
I was like, I was like, I need
to make a checklist and I was
like, wait a minute, we're
Justin: recording this.
We're recording all this.
Yeah.
It's all be available.
Matt: This is fantastic.
And I'm, I'm really excited about
it in part because while I did say
like, yeah, I have a VA that can come
back and redo some of this stuff.
I also am not like, this is not my job.
You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, we don't have ads
on the podcast because it's
a service to the community.
So it's this weird thing where it's sort
of like, it's a service to the community.
I don't want to put a whole
bunch of time and money into it.
And yet I want people to
actually get access to it.
And so I do want to put money
into it and at least time into it.
So I think you've given me
some really like helpful.
Here's some entry level stuff.
There's some easy wins.
I'm not going to be that person who's
going to put up six new video snippets
from every single episode that are being
spaced out in 16 social media sites.
But some of the things you said here,
I'm like, I could do that, especially
given the fact that I've helped the IVA
help, like those are manageable things.
The
Justin: other thing for you to
consider, um, again, because
you have so much goodwill.
Is I've seen other podcasts do
this is they just say, uh, so you
as the host could also say, Hey,
um, I'm making the video recording
of this available to whoever it's
at the link in the show notes.
If you would like to make clips.
And share them on Instagram, Reels,
Tik Tok, YouTube or whatever.
We would love it.
That's one way that people find the
show and, um, they've had kind of
a crowdsourcing approach to this.
Um, and you could even, you know,
just say, Hey, like we're just doing
this as a gift to the community.
If this show has been useful to you and
you want us to help spread the word, then,
um, You can do that by here's the link,
just go in and just create some clips
and then, uh, feel free to share them.
Just use this hashtag
so we can find it later.
And again, that becomes another
opportunity right before you record.
You just quickly look at the hashtag.
Oh, thanks to Damien
for sharing on TikTok.
Thanks to whoever for
sharing on Instagram.
We appreciate it.
And you create this nice cycle.
The podcast, the folks hosting the show,
especially if you have fans that want
to help out, um, that you can leverage
that there's people that are like, I
want to be a part of this, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we all, I've also seen folks, um,
take those fans that have been like,
especially excited about it and just
go at the end, they just thank them.
Uh, and thanks to Tony for, uh, doing
our TikTok reels and, you know, so
they're kind of in charge of it.
It gives them some, some practical
recognition, which they often will like.
So I, yeah, I think that could work
for you, this show, especially.
I appreciate
Matt: that.
And I know we're about to wrap up.
One thing I want to say is I really
like how you have been talking
about the social capital, the
kind of the relationship energy.
Yeah.
Only because one of the things that's
been really important for me for the
podcast is to not turn it into a thing
that's selling or pitching what I'm doing.
Right.
Like it started as a
service to the community.
It is staying a service community.
So that's why there's no ads.
There's no anything like that.
But like ads to get more people
to listen to the podcast.
That doesn't defeat the purpose of
being a service to the community, but
it's, I'm so wary of being the ad guy,
the pitch guy, the schmooze guy that I
hadn't even thought about this before.
I'm like, yeah, if, if the whole point
is for people to get the value that
is being created here, then doing
this work and pulling a little bit
of that relational capital in and
saying, yeah, I'm a convert this to
more people listening to the thing.
That works with my values.
Justin: I could do that.
Totally.
And you can even get Taylor on the mic.
Just really low voice.
Hey, everybody, it's Taylor Outwell.
I'd love for you guys to share the show.
Thanks.
You know, that could be all it takes.
There you go.
Maybe just get me to come
on and imitate Taylor.
Matt: Yes.
No, that's even better.
I love this.
You know what I need to do?
And now to get every single person
in the community to do their
Taylor, their Taylor imitation,
and then put that together in one.
Oh, that would be full
Justin: of ideas.
That would be a incredible.
Bonus episode.
It's Taylor back
Matt: in the studio.
We heard that man.
We know what he sounds like.
Justin: I'm gonna do that.
That would be hilarious.
So one final thing I would
recommend is, so you're going
to create this trailer episode.
This is the teaser for the podcast.
So in a one minute,
what is the sales pitch?
And, um, in a lot of places,
this trailer is featured.
So.
On the podcast websites.
It's like if I just land here and I don't
want to dive into a 44 minute episode.
I can just listen to 1 minute and
get a sense for like, okay, this
is this is worth listening to.
And it's just a great way to
say, hey, here's a quick way
to find out about the podcast.
I would create the video version, publish
that everywhere and then export the audio.
And then make that the audio version.
Matt: Justin, you're amazing, man.
I can't believe you're giving
me all this stuff for free.
Justin: This is so good.
We're going to share this with everybody.
So there you go.
Um, yeah, thanks so much for doing this.
We're, uh, really appreciate it.
Appreciate you trying out Transistor.
And, uh.
Great experience, man.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Well, we'll, we'll do a follow
up, uh, maybe in a little while.
I think it'd be fun to have a followup
series and just say, okay, let's, we tried
some things, what worked, what didn't.
And, uh, we're going to look at
Matt: those charts starting on this date.
Yeah.
Just going to watch those
Justin: things go up.
Yeah.
Let's see what we can make happen.
So cool.
Thanks again.
Thanks for having me, man.