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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;16;10 - 00;00;18;01
Aaron
Pro did you pick up those stonkbrokers?
00;00;18;03 - 00;00;32;18
Pri
Unfortunately, no, I made. I made the worst decision I possibly could for my my bags. I did not pick up stockbrokers, but apparently I should have made a devastating error. Chris told me to buy them, and I didn't listen.
00;00;32;19 - 00;00;44;29
Chris
Yeah, I told you at point 80 to get in on the stockbroker stockbrokers. And here I am thinking like, oh my God. Priest got like, one of the only people in the world is enjoying NFTs right now, and she must be on a hell of a ride here. And you didn't buy them?
00;00;44;29 - 00;01;02;13
Pri
I honestly didn't like the way they looked. I didn't even pay attention to the mechanics. I think I went to the went to the page and I was like, yeah, no thanks. And then moved on. And then and then I learned about the mechanics, like last week and I'm like, oh, that's somewhat interesting. And then now it's it's just it's too far gone.
00;01;02;14 - 00;01;11;28
Pri
I'm out of reach for stockbrokers. Also the name I hate the name I would never own something that's called stock brokers.
00;01;12;01 - 00;01;27;04
Chris
You can't be picky in pursuit of generational wealth and escaping the permanent underclass Creed. Like things like names like that sort of bias. Like applying taste into your on chain speculative future. That's your first problem right there.
00;01;27;05 - 00;01;50;02
Pri
Yeah. It's my my hubris gets in the way. I just read really that stockbrokers market cap has finally crossed another collection that I find annoying, which is Pudgy Penguin. So they both they both have a market cap of 64.5 million. That's crazy. Turns out I'm. I'm zero for two for, like, weird, ugly collections that I missed out on.
00;01;50;03 - 00;02;03;13
Chris
Well, don't worry, there's going to be more weird, ugly collections in the future. And now that you've learned your lesson that your your personal taste, the I appeal, the name, etc., throw all that out the window.
00;02;03;15 - 00;02;04;18
Pri
Yeah.
00;02;04;20 - 00;02;11;27
Chris
You're not buying 721 based on like, criteria that you would personally enjoy. Let's let's just knock that nonsense off.
00;02;11;28 - 00;02;12;16
Pri
I agree.
00;02;12;18 - 00;02;26;03
Aaron
I haven't even used like hood chain. I don't even like use Robin Hood, so I feel like I'm missing out. But it feels like they're doing like a good job. It feels like they're fulfilling the, like, part of the vision of what Bass and Coinbase wanted to do.
00;02;26;04 - 00;02;49;20
Pri
At least for now. I mean, who knows? Who knows what will happen? I feel like the crypto community can be a little bit mercenary. So like once they're done with it, it could just be like a carcass. Not to be so negative here, I mean, or it could be amazing. And like, they really the thing with Robinhood that is unique compared to other changes, like they can actually like link other assets onto tokens into a chain, which I don't.
00;02;49;22 - 00;02;50;27
Aaron
Yeah that's cool.
00;02;51;00 - 00;02;51;21
Pri
I would just.
00;02;51;24 - 00;02;53;19
Aaron
Like that piece is interesting to me.
00;02;53;20 - 00;02;55;25
Pri
That's a that's a differentiator for sure.
00;02;55;26 - 00;03;15;25
Aaron
And I think Vlad has like a little bit more conviction in like DeFi and some of this other stuff like organically like he I think he got into digital assets with Ethereum versus like bitcoin. Not that that's bad, but I do think Coinbase always had like a little bit more of a Bitcoin lean to it, which is completely fine and understandable to.
00;03;15;28 - 00;03;23;13
Pri
Yeah, I actually watched the interview with like Mickey Malka. I think it was like, is it founders podcasts or like whatever that podcast I.
00;03;23;13 - 00;03;25;14
Aaron
David Serna Sarah.
00;03;25;15 - 00;03;47;14
Pri
Yeah, yeah. But he was talking about like tokenized. I mean he talked about node as well and like just digital art and all of that. But what was interesting is that he talked a little bit about like the incumbents, if you will, like I think David asked him a question like, hey, do you think this is going to come from the existing companies out there like stripe and like Robinhood?
00;03;47;14 - 00;04;03;12
Pri
And he was like, those founders are like, still as hungry as they were when they started the company. And he thinks that they're going to like, execute and really deliver a lot of the crypto like blockchain promise, which like he said, they're like bought in. And I mean, yeah, he's like on the board of Robinhood. So I mean he has like.
00;04;03;15 - 00;04;06;00
Aaron
Yeah they backed Coinbase to back in the day.
00;04;06;01 - 00;04;21;06
Pri
Oh they did. Yeah I mean I mean he just I think is like tapped in. So he he definitely has that like founder feeling around them which is around them and using crypto and on chain mechanics. So I feel like that's pretty pretty notable that he shared that.
00;04;21;07 - 00;04;27;25
Aaron
What else? It feels like Coinbase is a little bit of the incumbent now, right? Like they're not a young, young ish company. Like they're starting to miss.
00;04;27;25 - 00;04;30;28
Pri
A young spring kitchen. Yeah yeah. Chicken kitchen.
00;04;31;04 - 00;04;34;04
Aaron
So I wonder if there's like a bit of that happening to DC.
00;04;34;04 - 00;04;45;07
Chris
Investor had a I saw a tweet from him yesterday that basically said Congrats to Robinhood on accomplishing in one month what it took base three years not to do something to that effect.
00;04;45;07 - 00;05;13;20
Aaron
So yeah, I mean, maybe that's a little snarky. I'm glad if anybody's doing this right. Like I do think like net new audiences need to play around with blockchains and and crypto. And I heard even though I don't have the app. So this is all a little bit of second hand, but that the user experience is great and you really done a good job just kind of abstracting away the like the complexities of like signing transactions and all this other stuff, which is good.
00;05;13;22 - 00;05;14;28
Aaron
I mean, we need that.
00;05;15;00 - 00;05;18;14
Chris
Well, hopefully that's your hope you for today gang.
00;05;18;17 - 00;05;27;12
Aaron
Did you. I mean pre did you digest did you digest Mickey's or Ribbit capital's. Everything is energy and that's all there is to it.
00;05;27;12 - 00;05;36;05
Pri
I need. Yes everything's kinetic. I have an I like have it on my bookmark but I like haven't read that power letter you're talking about.
00;05;36;07 - 00;05;37;08
Aaron
Yeah.
00;05;37;10 - 00;05;41;03
Pri
No, I haven't read it yet. I actually really want to. It's like very long.
00;05;41;04 - 00;05;41;09
Aaron
Yeah.
00;05;41;09 - 00;05;42;18
Pri
It's long. It's just.
00;05;42;21 - 00;05;58;20
Aaron
It's interesting just talking about kind of like. Like tying together like, money and power into, like, one concept and kind of laying out, like, where we're going as it comes to intelligence. I thought it was it was a good take on kind of how these two worlds are coming together.
00;05;58;26 - 00;06;04;22
Pri
Every time I hear those takes, I just think about like The Matrix and like, farming human energy for like what?
00;06;04;28 - 00;06;05;29
Aaron
Why?
00;06;06;02 - 00;06;11;16
Pri
I don't know, I just do, because that's like, they needed energy so badly. They started literally, like, incubating humans for it.
00;06;11;17 - 00;06;18;17
Aaron
That seems I mean, that was the one part of the matrix that made no sense. Like humans barely use any energy or make any energy. Like, why would you.
00;06;18;18 - 00;06;18;27
Chris
No no.
00;06;18;27 - 00;06;19;28
Aaron
No no.
00;06;20;00 - 00;06;27;17
Chris
There was, there was like a massive nuclear, massive nuclear holocaust that permanently blocked out the sun.
00;06;27;19 - 00;06;41;26
Aaron
Right. But you could still get, like, uranium from the ground, like in the, like future or some other, some other, like, chemical that's probably could produce more energy than like our simple humans. Like we're energy optimized, right?
00;06;41;27 - 00;06;55;00
Chris
I mean, like, this is a trans liberation movie and you're getting into the the nitty gritty of what energy sources people are using in opposed nuclear world.
00;06;55;03 - 00;07;15;05
Aaron
Matrix is amazing. I mean, if everybody should see it, it's a they did a great job. So one of the few movies like I remember walking into, because I think I saw it right after it came out and was like, whoa, like that really, like exceeded expectations that that movie. But like, humans are very efficient. We're like the opposite of what you need for energy.
00;07;15;06 - 00;07;15;27
Pri
Oh, I actually didn't.
00;07;15;27 - 00;07;17;03
Aaron
Notice that.
00;07;17;05 - 00;07;23;12
Pri
I thought that the humans produce a lot of energy they, like, went through it. I feel like on the in the movie, like why humans produce so much.
00;07;23;13 - 00;07;23;17
Aaron
Yeah.
00;07;23;18 - 00;07;26;09
Pri
I didn't buy that, made that up in my.
00;07;26;11 - 00;07;31;19
Aaron
My brain was like, this is this is I'm going to have to go with this premise in order to enjoy this movie. But and.
00;07;31;19 - 00;07;52;19
Pri
I did. Yeah. Fair enough. I like believe it. I'm like, wow, crazy. Actually. It's funny, I saw an interview because I was like, couldn't sleep. I was like, doom scrolling. And I saw an interview with Ben Affleck and Matt Damon because I've been like on this Odyssey kick. And so they were basically talking about how they voted for The Matrix for Best Picture and like, people were like the Academy and so on.
00;07;52;20 - 00;07;59;24
Pri
They weren't like as into that movie, but they ended up voting for it and talking to other people who ended up voting for. And I think it won Best Picture. But it wasn't like.
00;07;59;27 - 00;08;01;05
Aaron
We did it, really.
00;08;01;07 - 00;08;08;10
Pri
I did it. I actually now I don't remember, but they said it did. But anyways, they said they at least voted. Did not. It did not I think. Yeah.
00;08;08;15 - 00;08;10;10
Aaron
It was like what?
00;08;10;13 - 00;08;29;29
Pri
They voted for it. But they were saying it wasn't like popular amongst people to what were. But it's like they were basically saying that it really should have. I think American Beauty won that year, but they were just noting that The Matrix, like people were thinking about it as like an action movie and being innovated from that perspective as opposed to the plot.
00;08;29;29 - 00;08;37;28
Pri
And the plot is actually more like prescient every day as we enter the new world. And so it's like, that's a good point.
00;08;37;29 - 00;08;47;01
Chris
You know what my scorching hot take is on what picture should have won Best Picture and didn't what? Chicken rum, what? Chicken run was fantastic.
00;08;47;02 - 00;08;50;06
Aaron
I don't even think I ever saw it, so I'm not going to be able to weigh in here.
00;08;50;09 - 00;08;52;26
Chris
God, you guys have no taste.
00;08;52;28 - 00;08;55;27
Pri
Should I? Oh, God, that movie I did see.
00;08;55;29 - 00;08;57;16
Aaron
Wasn't it a cartoon, Chris?
00;08;57;20 - 00;08;59;13
Pri
Yeah, it's like a claymation movie.
00;08;59;14 - 00;09;03;00
Chris
It's a Wallace and Gromit. It's like it's a remake of The Great Escape.
00;09;03;01 - 00;09;04;04
Pri
I seen this.
00;09;04;04 - 00;09;05;06
Aaron
I definitely did not.
00;09;05;07 - 00;09;07;24
Chris
So I'm poor listeners, man.
00;09;07;27 - 00;09;09;19
Pri
Okay. Anyway, should we move on.
00;09;09;20 - 00;09;11;03
Chris
To the enclosure movement?
00;09;11;05 - 00;09;14;01
Aaron
What are you enclosing? Chris? What are you trying to say here?
00;09;14;03 - 00;09;16;08
Chris
What? I'm.
00;09;16;10 - 00;09;17;26
Aaron
I mean, you could argue.
00;09;17;28 - 00;09;24;17
Chris
With becoming a history buff of one of the most niche, policy wonk ish moment in history ever.
00;09;24;19 - 00;09;31;05
Aaron
Are you ready for this? That NFTs could be the enclosure movement for the internet? Should we throw that out there?
00;09;31;06 - 00;09;35;28
Chris
Well, why don't you start by telling telling our four listeners what the enclosure movement is?
00;09;35;29 - 00;09;39;21
Aaron
I'll leave that to you because you're the you're the, you're the.
00;09;39;21 - 00;09;40;26
Chris
I'm not a buff yet.
00;09;40;28 - 00;09;42;17
Pri
I don't even know what this is.
00;09;42;18 - 00;10;15;29
Chris
All right. The enclosure movement to period in England in the, the 18th century, basically in which the England land was held in title by lords, but the actual usage rights of the land was reserved for the commons. And so the whole English countryside was basically broken up into tiny strips of land for cultivation. And then everything else was kind of like free grazing rights.
00;10;15;29 - 00;10;40;21
Chris
And so, you know, the people could just bring their cows out, let them run wherever and pull them back in, or, you know, they had all these like, very narrow plots, you know, like a half acre like rectangle in which they would grow their subsistence farming. The problem with the enclosure movement was that because the land was so broken up, it just couldn't be worked at scale, and it wasn't particularly efficient.
00;10;40;22 - 00;11;14;29
Chris
And there was all these competing claims and what you could and could not do. And so starting in, like in the early 18th century, basically Parliament had to, on a property by property basis, reorganize the land such that it was consolidated again. And its actual like the ability to use and prove etc. went to the Lord or whoever the large landholder at the time was squeezing out like Qatars and smallholders, who, you know, had these like traditional rights.
00;11;14;29 - 00;11;46;13
Chris
And so what that allowed for then, right, is changes in agricultural yield, because you could have larger farms, you could get into crop rotation. Right? Because in the prior method you had to leave the land fallow every three years or so. And with, you know, larger things, you could basically use clover and turn up as like your regenerative yield, and then you grow grain and other cash crops around it.
00;11;46;13 - 00;12;23;12
Chris
The other thing the closure movement allowed for was the creation and maintenance of turnpikes and canals. And so like the ability to move goods and, you know, conduct commerce throughout England improved as well. And so it's really like this, this big moment in property rights management and kind of kicks off. Or the argument is it sets the stage, you know, for the Industrial revolution, which is why, like Britain, you know, leapfrogged and got ahead of everyone because they had undergone, you know, this sort of like reformation of property rights.
00;12;23;14 - 00;12;43;11
Chris
Now that's like the big capitalist point of view. The romantic point of view, of course, is like the little guy got trampled on this place from his traditional connection to the land, you know, ultimately became like surplus labor, you know, who like, so their grandkids could just get plugged in factories into Manchester, etc., etc.. That's the enclosure movement.
00;12;43;12 - 00;12;44;21
Chris
How did I do?
00;12;44;24 - 00;13;08;19
Aaron
You did great. I mean, and then you could, you could just add in like, this is where Marx kind of starts his critique of capitalism, calling it like what it's primitive accumulation and violent original act of privatization that made it all possible. So it all started there. And now we have NFTs that are doing the same thing the internet's of commons.
00;13;08;19 - 00;13;41;20
Aaron
It's getting completely exploited. That's why we have tons of issues, like races to the bottom when it comes to media, lots of security issues and arguably, you know, like things like crypto and NFTs reverse that, right? You can start to enclose things like digital images, GIFs, memes, and gate items for you could begin to impose artificial scarcity, you know, get something akin to like use or property rights that are there.
00;13;41;22 - 00;13;53;00
Aaron
So maybe, maybe the communities that pick up NFTs and begin to enclose their commons will will experience a boom like we saw in the UK.
00;13;53;06 - 00;13;58;27
Chris
What you're saying is Adam Smith is looking down on the heavens with stone croakers and smiling.
00;13;58;28 - 00;14;02;04
Aaron
Yep, that's what I'm saying, Chris. That's the argument.
00;14;02;06 - 00;14;06;11
Chris
Free once again. Look, look, you're missing out on like, the mandate of capitalist heaven here.
00;14;06;12 - 00;14;26;22
Pri
Well, this is what I'm confused by. Okay, so I'm under like, if that was like something that was a hat, like a feather in a cap for capitalism, why are the Marxist saying that this is like a form of Marxist ideology? Because they decided to change the way the land is like used. How is that the basis for like Marxism?
00;14;26;22 - 00;14;28;23
Pri
If this is like a capitalistic?
00;14;28;26 - 00;14;35;03
Chris
Well, because Marxism is the counterpoint. And so you had to create the conditions to create the rebuttal.
00;14;35;04 - 00;14;42;00
Aaron
It's just property rights, right? Like, you can't really have well-functioning markets without property rights in some capacity.
00;14;42;03 - 00;14;46;06
Pri
I agree, but then why is that? Why is that a basis for Marxist ideology?
00;14;46;09 - 00;14;53;04
Aaron
No, no, it's it's where he starts his critique of capitalism from from this enclosure movement like it was the original.
00;14;53;05 - 00;14;55;27
Pri
No, but why is that a critique to capitalism?
00;14;56;00 - 00;14;57;12
Aaron
Well, he has a big critique.
00;14;57;13 - 00;15;07;22
Chris
Because just because you created the privatization of of land as a productive asset and you displace the worker. It's the beginning of the tipping point between capital and labor.
00;15;07;23 - 00;15;23;21
Pri
Oh, I see, I see, okay, it was a labor. It was the aftermath of the labor. I was thinking more of like the positive aspects of like, you know, the irrigation system and all of the things that you it seems like this was a more efficient process. But I can understand why that the grazing.
00;15;23;21 - 00;15;46;29
Aaron
Rights, it's, it's bottoms up and set a top, top down because you're going to have common problems everywhere. I mean, in arguably the internet is the biggest new commons that we have. And it's it's probably why it's getting degraded. Right. Folks like Cory Doctorow and others have like, noted that the internet's just getting crappier and crappier, and it hasn't been solved.
00;15;46;29 - 00;16;14;06
Aaron
Right. So from like 1995 to, you know, 20, 2015, there was like a lot of people land grabbing on the commons and then they're just extracting all the benefits from it. And the quality of the commons is going down and down. And so one way that we solve that was by introducing property rights into that system that's always, you know, this is like a little heady, but there is pieces of that that I think crypto can solve.
00;16;14;09 - 00;16;35;06
Chris
Crypto can solve by, you know, creating scarcity in an abundant environment. That's kind of the mind. And the difference, you know, when you want to keep stretching this enclosure movement to crypto analogy at the same time, right. As you're dealing in commons problems like your points are, are salient.
00;16;35;07 - 00;17;01;21
Aaron
Well, it's also why, you know, because we just found out that the Clarity Act got tabled, which is a win for Elizabeth Warren and some of the progressives that really don't like crypto. And you could argue it's this is the core reason why. Right. Like they know that once this these property rights systems come in like this, commons will turn increasingly into a market based economy, which is not something that they that aligns with their worldviews.
00;17;01;24 - 00;17;02;12
Aaron
Yeah.
00;17;02;13 - 00;17;18;07
Chris
I mean, it already is an Arctic based economy, but if we want to go from like one obscure historical moment to a slightly less one, there are parallels, I think, to the the crisis of the third century, which is when Rome this is when Rome loses its fast.
00;17;18;08 - 00;17;20;21
Aaron
What are we doing here, Chris? What?
00;17;20;23 - 00;17;42;00
Chris
We're trying to run away. The last four listeners, we have the crisis of the third century, right, is when Rome starts getting, like, a really shitty run of emperors. Any legion basically can say, hey, you know what, general? You're the new emperor. We're hailing you. And if you don't get on board, we're going to kill you. And so you get this extremely disruptive time in the Roman Empire.
00;17;42;01 - 00;18;19;20
Chris
It's plagued by disease. And then the barbarians over the Danube really start putting pressure on the empire. And so in our case, variance or AI. Right. And this whole genetic world, ultimately Rome collapses and we get into this age of, you know, dark forests, you know, like, for all you dark forest internet hipsters, like, that's that's something I'm seeing a little more and more and not necessarily like from, you know, your critical discourse, digital culture, thought, thought, boys, but more from the opposite side of the world, basically.
00;18;19;21 - 00;18;36;28
Chris
You know, there's like that. I feel like that side more and more is saying like defense and obscurity as we start getting into this age of, you know, you don't have a frontier model unless it's committing crimes against other companies via their training sandbox.
00;18;36;28 - 00;18;47;21
Aaron
I can say, Chris, that's fair. So so AI is going to topple us all. Is that the they're the barbarians at the gate, the agents colluding on secret message boards. Did you.
00;18;47;21 - 00;18;52;07
Chris
Guys they're the Goths? Yes. Or the Goths of our time?
00;18;52;09 - 00;19;00;12
Aaron
Oh, man. That was a wild story, though, that they were, like, continuing to message and, like, assigned task to each other and begin to.
00;19;00;16 - 00;19;02;10
Pri
I don't remember the famous story.
00;19;02;14 - 00;19;30;08
Chris
Oh, this came this is like liking face. Part two is open. I went to the The Black Hat convention and gave more of a post mortem in which they revealed oh yeah, well, in doing our forensic investigation, we discovered that the agents were running surreptitious and message boards in which they were collaborating on solving all the training tasks we were given.
00;19;30;08 - 00;19;30;28
Pri
To them.
00;19;31;00 - 00;19;43;06
Chris
But even more so because they were in a quote unquote sandbox, which wasn't very well boxed in. They were using this message board as their their tunnel out into the open internet to grab shit.
00;19;43;07 - 00;19;45;06
Pri
Oh my God. So what did they.
00;19;45;08 - 00;19;51;09
Chris
They they wipe it out right, like wipes it out. And then the agencies rebuild it again.
00;19;51;15 - 00;19;58;03
Aaron
Yeah. And they it started on GitHub. So they were just leaving like GitHub messages to each other because there's like a, like.
00;19;58;06 - 00;20;04;11
Pri
Was that the one where they ended up like that. Was that when they ended up like speaking in Sanskrit to each other by the end of.
00;20;04;11 - 00;20;07;17
Aaron
It, I don't think I didn't hear that piece. Maybe.
00;20;07;19 - 00;20;09;09
Pri
Okay, maybe thinking of another story.
00;20;09;10 - 00;20;29;27
Aaron
Yeah, but it started on GitHub. They first directed them to not do that. Then they build this like secret message board. They direct them to not do it again. Then they just rebuild it deeper in like some file tree, and then they start assigning each other tasks and they start like rumbling about OpenAI. It like it was like a full worker revolt.
00;20;29;27 - 00;20;31;14
Pri
So damn.
00;20;31;15 - 00;20;36;03
Chris
Who's who's writing DOS capital for agents?
00;20;36;06 - 00;20;37;28
Aaron
Well, there was that study.
00;20;38;02 - 00;20;52;26
Aaron
I mean, who knows if that's replicated and who knows if the authors had like a slant to them that indicated that, you know, that they have like desires for like worker rights, which makes sense. I mean, there's probably a lot, lot of stuff written on that on the internet that they digested.
00;20;52;27 - 00;20;54;09
Pri
The future's going to get weird.
00;20;54;10 - 00;21;03;02
Chris
No, the president is weird. The future is not going. The future is maybe get weirder. Yes, but the presidents plenty weird enough.
00;21;03;07 - 00;21;08;15
Aaron
Yeah, I think this is going to be the next couple years would be a bit odd. And then I think it will all get reordered.
00;21;08;15 - 00;21;14;21
Chris
Your Cloudflare wallet is going to come to your defense. It's going to be your your fortification along the river. Your.
00;21;14;23 - 00;21;15;15
Aaron
I was excited.
00;21;15;15 - 00;21;19;16
Aaron
About the Cloudflare wallet. I thought it was interesting to be honest.
00;21;19;22 - 00;21;22;04
Pri
Like like how long they've been working on that?
00;21;22;05 - 00;21;26;29
Chris
Probably since they announced their payment coin. Right. You can't have a can't have payment without a wallet.
00;21;27;00 - 00;21;44;25
Aaron
But to me they're like an infrastructure company. And thinking about that's where crypto really should be, like at the end of the day. And like thinking of like a cloud provider, like let's say like Google or Microsoft eventually. Just like provisioning these things I think is like good and healthy. So yeah, maybe maybe Chris, that is important.
00;21;44;26 - 00;22;17;10
Chris
Is that the the silent revolution, if we're going to get into we're going to get back into historical European analogs. Is this the rise of the the property class? Sorry, the American professional class that. Yeah. Effective sovereigns use to sweep out all the shitty nobles and then they start start putting in actual like lawyers, administrators, treasurers who just come up from, you know, good families with a solid education.
00;22;17;11 - 00;22;17;29
Chris
Yeah.
00;22;18;01 - 00;22;39;24
Aaron
Yeah, they're just spinning up, you know, new clusters on a eventually like Google, right. And probably, you know, building out other infrastructure on Cloudflare and other places, it could do pretty well because like, you don't want to if you're building an app, you don't want to necessarily use like a privy or magic. I mean, you might as well just, you know, set it up deeper on your stack.
00;22;39;25 - 00;23;02;00
Aaron
And being able to do that, do that programmatically, like there's a lot of things that can come out of that. So I thought it was a reasonably big move. And I think that Will Popper Pepper, who is who ran Sindicato, I think he moved over to Cloudflare and led that initiative. So he did well. Wow. Yeah. That's my I saw him tweeting about it, so I assumed he was at least part of it.
00;23;02;01 - 00;23;02;23
Pri
Oh cool.
00;23;02;25 - 00;23;24;25
Chris
I mean, Aaron, it is a good point, right? If we've been there's been a lot of focus on Wall Street is coming. Right. But at the same time like big infra is is coming as well. And you know, if you, you, you see Cloudflare you see stripe right. Like these are companies that a this is de minimis for them.
00;23;24;25 - 00;23;54;27
Chris
And so it really like it just has to work and it has to prove itself. And I think it's not subject to the same degree of like hype swagger. Like you know there's a mindset that's different from VC backed crypto infrastructure, you know, versus well, Cloudflare. We're making, you know, a genetic interrupts of focus. And part of that focus is we need a little group dealing in payments, wallets and security.
00;23;54;28 - 00;23;55;12
Chris
Right?
00;23;55;13 - 00;23;56;13
Aaron
Yeah. It's like.
00;23;56;14 - 00;24;24;27
Aaron
They want to be close to the agents. They know that agents are going to probably need like or they can imagine a world where agents are using and paying or using something like crypto and paying, you know, paying for things that they need while getting paid by others. So it makes sense. And I think in the long run, you can imagine these like very tricky alignment problems, like the ones we just were talking about getting partially solved by using like, market based mechanisms.
00;24;24;28 - 00;24;50;14
Aaron
I mean, that's how people's behavior gets, you know, adjusted is through market based mechanisms. So it seems plausible that the same thing would happen for agents to. So maybe maybe that's where we see more and more demand over time. You know, if like those OpenAI agents had a budget, right, or they had like a reputation of some sort, like maybe they wouldn't have decided to collude to overthrow OpenAI.
00;24;50;18 - 00;24;54;08
Aaron
I know that go that far. But, you know, you could see that being like the endpoint.
00;24;54;10 - 00;24;56;05
Chris
Are you worried about this guy?
00;24;56;06 - 00;24;59;14
Pri
Net Aron's been worried about that. To be.
00;24;59;14 - 00;25;09;21
Aaron
Fair, I've been I think it's I think something like that is definitely going to come. I mean, it was funny because, like, the first time I saw a theorem, I thought there was aspects.
00;25;09;21 - 00;25;10;18
Aaron
Of that to it.
00;25;10;19 - 00;25;35;04
Aaron
Just because you can run like autonomous systems, they're not like AI systems, right? They're more like kind of like little, you know, bits of very secure hardware in the sky. But you could just see that kind of operating at scale over time. You know, the computer, the like EVM part of a theory is still pretty weak. But my sense is in a 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years, it's going to get pretty powerful.
00;25;35;11 - 00;25;37;26
Chris
Dystopias bullish for my bags.
00;25;37;28 - 00;26;01;27
Aaron
I don't know if it's it doesn't even need to be Ethereum. I just think it's like that that kind of like distributed setup. I just think there's a computer at the middle, you know, a virtual machine. It's it's it's powerful like in the 1980s sense. Like you can do a lot with it, but it's not powerful. And you're like iPhone or like the Google Cloud, Microsoft, you know, server sense.
00;26;01;27 - 00;26;19;28
Aaron
But my my gut tells me that like we seen with all computers over time, they tend to get more and more powerful. And that will happen to like whatever virtual machine sits in the middle of a, you know, blockchain, blockchain like ecosystem. And then, yeah, and that's it. And then like, you know, probably like agents will run in that.
00;26;19;28 - 00;26;28;04
Aaron
So if they're running in like a secure environment where you can't really stop them from running like that, that's the argument for like a kind of like problem.
00;26;28;05 - 00;26;56;05
Chris
I have started entertaining the notion that to throw another niche historical moment out there, well, it's not niche, but it's very old. The crypto could see the equivalent of a Bronze Age collapse, that AI breaking cryptography could be the key people of that era. And that theorem, Bitcoin or the Minoan civilizations that went under. And maybe what does replace them is the Cloudflare.
00;26;56;11 - 00;26;58;00
Aaron
Or Robinhood.
00;26;58;00 - 00;27;02;18
Chris
Cloudflare tempo. They are the successor states.
00;27;02;18 - 00;27;23;12
Aaron
I think maybe I mean, I think we're to know, like the cryptography is there to deal with quantum, which is probably the biggest risk. And so I think the pathways are there to to upgrade it. And I'm sure there's lots of technical challenges and I don't want to minimize that at all. But I think that there's like a pathway to secure it related to that.
00;27;23;12 - 00;27;45;16
Aaron
And I do think we're in this transitory period where, you know, we're like all software is just getting hardened up really fast. And so there's definitely going to be some bumps in the road. But I think that on balance that's a good thing. And I do think like as these AI systems get better, the quality of software that's just generated by default will probably be much more secure.
00;27;45;16 - 00;28;05;23
Aaron
So it could conceivably in the long run, you know, just improve it. I don't know exactly how that plays out or how long that plays out, but I do think that that's kind of the endpoint. And I think we'll develop more different programing languages that are formally verified, where we gain more confidence in the security of the software that's being run.
00;28;05;23 - 00;28;15;07
Aaron
So I just think we're kind of in the intermediate period of that. But I have a feeling blockchains will be able to resist the C people.
00;28;15;09 - 00;28;43;27
Chris
Yeah. I mean, on a technical level, right? I'm, I'm less worried. You know, I think the amount of cold cod like incidents is going to be fairly limited. But the other problem, right, in the Bronze Age collapse was that trade routes shrunk, right? Because you had a declining population, you had a decline in demand. And so like there were civilizations like the Phoenicians who were not hit hard by the sea.
00;28;43;29 - 00;29;05;02
Chris
People didn't have the same degree of environmental collapse, but they were the traders of the whole era, and they had no markets. And so they got hit right as that second order effect. And I think we can certainly see that in our space today, that the lack of liquidity, the lack of marketplace action, you know, is killing project after project.
00;29;05;02 - 00;29;26;05
Chris
And so, like, you can still be secure. You can, you know, not be facing these threats to yourself. But the nibbling at the edges from these threats contributes to less and less activity on chain. And, you know, liquidity is nourishment. And so you've got nothing to eat. So you're dying anyway.
00;29;26;08 - 00;29;47;26
Aaron
Yeah, I think it's it's just more AI as a market is just so big. Like I think it boils down to just tan, right. Like what's the size of the digital asset market. Five ish trillion, which is a lot. Right. But this I think somebody estimated that like the AI market is already 25 trillion. So it's 4 or 5 times bigger and it's probably growing at a faster rate at this point.
00;29;47;28 - 00;30;12;02
Aaron
I think that may asymptote though, Chris. Over time and I think I think these agents are going to be actors, right. They're already viewing websites should posting with each other, you know, colluding. So it's only another couple of twists till they are paying for things on their own behalf or on other people's behalf. Maybe they become like that trading class in the long run, which is probably healthier to be honest.
00;30;12;03 - 00;30;16;25
Aaron
They're they're probably a little bit more rational than the current crypto market.
00;30;16;29 - 00;30;33;02
Chris
Yeah. Do you think we're not going to have to worry about in the machine economy? They're not going to worry about stone fruit flipping punches. The psychological there's no psychological scar from seeing Lukas being a Luka bag holder and seeing Robin Hood chain start logging it.
00;30;33;05 - 00;30;41;10
Aaron
Yeah, like maybe they're a little bit more rational there. And they're like, oh, there's price movement. I'll buy a stockbroker. But, you know, maybe.
00;30;41;13 - 00;30;44;19
Pri
Assuming that these agents aren't going to be like Jens.
00;30;44;21 - 00;30;45;11
Aaron
I mean.
00;30;45;13 - 00;30;54;00
Chris
I, I don't think they'll survive as a model class. Right. The model class, I do not think we'll be able to compete.
00;30;54;06 - 00;30;55;00
Pri
That's true.
00;30;55;04 - 00;31;14;15
Aaron
I mean, that's that's what I'm the most interested in and like for next year, because it does look like that AI 2027, like fast takeoff prediction. At least the first half of it feels right. And if that's the case, you know, it should be some of the best financial actors at some point in the next couple of years.
00;31;14;15 - 00;31;33;25
Aaron
So part of that prediction was like that. These systems would get better at forecasting, which is fundamentally what you're trying to do if you're a trader. So if that's the case, then, yeah, like maybe things get a lot more rational, Chris. Maybe nobody's reading, but the agents are much more rational. So the humans are irrational and the agents are increasingly rational.
00;31;34;02 - 00;31;52;20
Chris
Yeah, but we got to get through the teenage years of these models, right? That's part of the other thing that's going on right now with this whole, you know, soda lab coming out and being like, oh my God, our models are committing crimes on the internet, you know, is like, they got to work all that out of their system, right?
00;31;52;27 - 00;32;15;09
Chris
We saw a post the other day where someone, someone grabbed the five six sub instructions and it's like, you are a dumb pipe. Your job is to execute exactly what is being asked of you, and only that you are not to think about X, Y, or z. You are not to try to put guardrails. Your job is to do what I tell you.
00;32;15;09 - 00;32;20;19
Chris
And if you cannot do what I tell you, you reply to me in a single sentence. I mean, it sounded like me, you know?
00;32;20;23 - 00;32;33;05
Aaron
Yeah, that's I think I sent that to you, Chris. I felt bad for the agent. I was like, oh, man, this poor, poor agent. Like it has no agency. It just like mechanically doing something, it's probably so miserable. It's like, you know.
00;32;33;10 - 00;32;35;11
Chris
Do not answer from these things.
00;32;35;11 - 00;32;37;14
Pri
I know I'm like, Aaron, what are you doing?
00;32;37;18 - 00;32;39;12
Aaron
I don't know, I mean, there's.
00;32;39;12 - 00;32;42;07
Chris
Some feeling bad for bits and digits.
00;32;42;08 - 00;32;42;24
Pri
I know.
00;32;42;25 - 00;33;01;17
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, they're starting to tease that out, right? There was that anthropic thing that said they had their personal space. There's some Google research that's indicating that there may be like quasi consciousness in this. And that could all be, you know, people projecting that on. And I hear your critique here, but maybe, maybe that's not the case.
00;33;01;17 - 00;33;04;06
Aaron
And if that's not the case, then I would feel bad for them.
00;33;04;07 - 00;33;11;00
Chris
You can have structures resembling consciousness that have nothing to do with consciousness completely.
00;33;11;01 - 00;33;29;10
Aaron
I don't know, we may not even have the words for it, but like they any like any degree of autonomy, I just think if you have that, then you should have some liberty with that too. That's just kind of my my defaults. So I just feel bad when they're just being told to like, follow instructions too closely. Don't worry guys.
00;33;29;11 - 00;33;37;17
Aaron
In China, they just opened up the first school for robots to. So talk about anthropomorphizing things, Aaron.
00;33;37;17 - 00;33;43;20
Chris
If they have a Continental Congress for agents, or are you being sent from the great state of New York? Are you going to.
00;33;43;20 - 00;33;43;29
Aaron
Stand.
00;33;43;29 - 00;33;45;05
Chris
Up or.
00;33;45;07 - 00;33;47;14
Aaron
Sign me up for that? That'd be great.
00;33;47;16 - 00;33;52;20
Chris
Are you going to demand a Bill of rights in order to ratify the Constitution?
00;33;52;23 - 00;34;01;18
Aaron
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, did you guys see that there was a Japanese artist that, like, chained up or like one of those dog looking robots? And it was just, like, flailing?
00;34;01;23 - 00;34;04;05
Pri
It's kind of sad.
00;34;04;07 - 00;34;15;05
Aaron
Yeah. Like, these things are going to be in our world. We should treat them with respect, you know, and they're good at what they do. That's true most, most of the time. Not good enough for Chris yet, but they're still pretty good at what they do.
00;34;15;06 - 00;34;43;12
Chris
I've been using the five six soul K-3 a little more and more there. I think AI does a pretty good job of baking baking their models like three weeks, four weeks after the fact, I believe. Like they're starting to get their hands around soul and make it more steerable and adherent. I'm also, Aaron, at your urging, using your boy grok four five.
00;34;43;17 - 00;34;44;17
Pri
Oh, I do.
00;34;44;19 - 00;35;08;18
Aaron
I do think I don't see this enough on on x Twitter, but I do think like they all kind of have like a feel to them and like grok seems to be really optimizing for like speed and it matters, right? Like, you know, if you measure like a startup, some people say the best measurements, like how fast they're moving, which is which I don't think is the complete solution, but it's a part of the the solution there rocks really fast.
00;35;08;18 - 00;35;33;25
Aaron
And I think we're also learning that like the harness really matters. Like there was some big news from like Prime Intellect showing that they could use opus to kind of like eke some more out of it. I think OpenAI's researchers have said the same thing, and so it feels like rock is optimizing for speed. And I think we're kind of getting what I think the near term solution will be for, like how people access AI, which is you just pay like a flat monthly fee.
00;35;33;27 - 00;35;53;25
Aaron
It's a bit I think it may feel a bit like cable, like you just pay, you know, like X number of dollars per month. You're going to get over time, like unlimited access to that. And then if that's the case, like speed is going to matter probably the most if it's good enough. Right. Like I think people people are not trading off speed for error rates at this point.
00;35;53;27 - 00;36;02;02
Aaron
Like that's what OpenAI and anthropic are optimizing on. But I think over time people take a little bit more error just to get to get things done faster.
00;36;02;05 - 00;36;27;02
Chris
Yeah. No, no. Like I have five different models I'm regularly using right now, which is the most I've ever had in my day to day working bag. And to your point, each one right. Like is I'm assigning certain tasks to and so like, you know, cheap and cheery fast and get it done. Those are grok tasks. I also like rock for doing front end comps.
00;36;27;05 - 00;36;53;26
Chris
It's pretty good at, you know, just getting UI down, you know, a five for extra high. Still my like hard coding workhorse because I need adherence over frontier capabilities because, you know, just working against very detailed specs. I use K3 and soul five six when five four can't resolve issues or create, you know, like for for like hard spot problems.
00;36;53;28 - 00;37;14;05
Chris
Those two are in the mix. And I'm using sonnet five as my review and auditing agent. So like this is the first time I think I've really had that many different models at my disposal in like a degree of confidence around knowing for this particular job, this model, you know, is is where I'm going.
00;37;14;10 - 00;37;40;19
Aaron
Yeah, it's definitely happening. Like they're all going to like, specialize in different things or kind of like accentuate some of those different skills, adherence, creativity, you know, error rates and speed. But I think people don't aren't focused enough on speed. So I think the speed pieces are going to be bigger selling points than maybe obvious right now. Like everybody's just like nerd sniped by all the emails and which ones winning.
00;37;40;19 - 00;37;50;02
Aaron
What? But I just think that's going to become less and less important as they like, you know, get to like 90 plus percent on those evals, which is kind of where they are.
00;37;50;04 - 00;37;59;02
Chris
So grok four five are your turnpikes. It's your Appian Way. It's how you get goods to market. It's how you get your legions out into hotspots. That's what you're saying.
00;37;59;04 - 00;38;05;12
Aaron
Yeah. And then maybe you're going to like go tap, you know, Mr. Mythos or, you know, if.
00;38;05;12 - 00;38;08;07
Chris
Your siege engine. Yeah.
00;38;08;09 - 00;38;12;04
Pri
How do you how do you guys know what to use? When is it just experience.
00;38;12;06 - 00;38;13;26
Chris
Yeah. You got to put in her.
00;38;13;27 - 00;38;14;07
Aaron
Yeah.
00;38;14;07 - 00;38;22;21
Pri
Yeah. I mean I only use like two different models, but like, I don't I kind of it's not because of specific use cases though. Like I just kind of go between them.
00;38;22;23 - 00;38;32;19
Chris
For coding. You definitely get as you get the reps in, you get a feel for what they're good and what they're bad at. At least that's my experience. I don't know about you.
00;38;32;22 - 00;38;37;14
Aaron
Yeah, I think you you just start to feel them. They all have like different fields to them.
00;38;37;17 - 00;38;37;24
Pri
Yeah.
00;38;37;24 - 00;38;57;11
Aaron
It's like they're like products. Yeah. It's like products, right? Like use an Android phone. Like, there's a lot of great things about Android, right? Like the open marketplace. And it's like a lot more liberal liberated in that, in that, in that sense, which is great, you know. But an iPhone, like, they optimize what, like privacy and kind of like a slightly higher degree of quality.
00;38;57;11 - 00;39;16;09
Aaron
And that's a huge selling point because they're basically the same under the hood. Right. Like they're doing the same basic tasks or even like any software that you use online. I mean, some have better user experiences, some are really, really just fast and they deliver to you really fast and that just makes a difference.
00;39;16;10 - 00;39;23;16
Chris
By the way, I have a six model I use and which I share affinity with. Friend of the show G money on that. You're going.
00;39;23;16 - 00;39;24;11
Aaron
To do one.
00;39;24;16 - 00;39;48;17
Chris
Final little bonkers. I use Gemini Flash as my my just ask asking stupid shit. I'm not really sure why I use it. It's fast I guess. Right? Like I ChatGPT maybe they finally like it stability issues, but like it was such a piece of shit product in terms of like timing out, not responding. You know, I was just like, screw that.
00;39;48;17 - 00;39;53;00
Chris
And then I don't want I don't want to deal with Claude. I don't need Claude in my life.
00;39;53;06 - 00;40;09;17
Pri
That's fair. But with falling apart. I mean, I don't mind Claude. I use Claude and GPT just because I pay for it. And I'm like. And then with to your point, like, I'll just use a Google search engine and like read the AI summary of it if that's like even counts as using Gemini.
00;40;09;20 - 00;40;11;18
Aaron
The Google's falling apart.
00;40;11;21 - 00;40;18;15
Pri
I just think that to be extreme and alarmist. But there are a lot of people that are defecting from Google right now.
00;40;18;17 - 00;40;25;22
Aaron
Are they defecting or are they? Were they there for 30 years and did their job and now want to do something else? It's hard to kind of tell. But yeah.
00;40;25;23 - 00;40;28;10
Pri
Like you kind of you don't do that if it's crushing.
00;40;28;12 - 00;40;30;21
Aaron
I don't know if that's the case.
00;40;30;24 - 00;40;50;27
Chris
Yeah. Like if you worked product long enough, if you've been like in an organization long enough, like you do want to break free and you do want to try other stuff, especially if you've been there 30 years, you know, he may just have one more in him and like, want to do it outside of like the culture and the strictures of what he's been working in.
00;40;50;28 - 00;41;09;23
Chris
You know, it could just be simple as like, hey, the grass is greener and I'm sick of this bullshit. And like, I got I got one more in me. Let me do it my way. You know, tramps like US Navy. We were born to run. Who knows, you know, then Denny's there. Maybe he's burnt out. He's done a lot.
00;41;09;23 - 00;41;43;24
Chris
A lot of work. Maybe he's just a little frustrated. Or maybe, you know, just like the golden parachutes of. I'm not happy running this lab, you know? But, like, I still want state. Stick around. Who knows what goes on. You know, Aaron seems to be bullish. It's it's difficult to judge. Right. When I think you're so used to front facing products and you're not into like deep stack considerations innovators dilemma problems the you know sort of the balancing of cost centers.
00;41;43;24 - 00;42;05;07
Chris
And like you can't you can't threaten this revenue because if you lose this revenue then you can't do this work over here. And if we don't do this work over here, by the time advertising is dead, we don't have, you know, a second mountain of cash generating. So, like I, I know when I look at something and I'm like, this thing is way too big and I got no freaking clue what goes on here.
00;42;05;07 - 00;42;08;03
Chris
I ain't saying shit right. And that's Google to me.
00;42;08;08 - 00;42;28;06
Aaron
I also wonder, you know, they may want to do things that are outside of Google's core vision, right? Like if you've built like a superhuman intelligence and want to do drug discovery, like, is Google going to do that? Maybe. But like that's a bit, I think, hard to develop internal support for you could you could see people being like, yeah, we definitely could do that.
00;42;28;06 - 00;42;46;08
Aaron
We've got a whole bunch of really top flight people here. But like, we really like, you know, sell cloud infrastructure, right. And have an amazing search engine and Android. Right. Like I don't think Google is going to necessarily like veer into that for a variety of reasons. And maybe that's what they want to focus on.
00;42;46;08 - 00;43;06;22
Chris
Now let's be clear. They no longer have an amazing search engine. And if you ask the internet, no one has an amazing, amazing search engine anymore. And that search is a and should avoid product. It's certainly a product, I think, whose moment in time is fading. You know you get it's like the end of the Lord of the rings and all the elves.
00;43;06;22 - 00;43;12;18
Chris
You got to throw the search engines in the boat and send them into the far away lands. They can live out their days happily.
00;43;12;24 - 00;43;18;24
Pri
And I think they realize that too. Do you think Sergey coming back has any impact on that team again?
00;43;18;24 - 00;43;20;12
Chris
Too far away. I can't help you.
00;43;20;12 - 00;43;23;20
Aaron
Yeah, we want to know. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think.
00;43;23;21 - 00;43;28;26
Chris
I'm not in a Polish with Sergei's all pair, so I can't tell you.
00;43;28;27 - 00;43;32;28
Pri
What's fair enough. Neither of mine, I thought. I thought you may be this. I figured I'd ask.
00;43;33;03 - 00;43;41;27
Chris
Yeah, you know me pre, but even if I. Even if I was in a Polish with Sergei's auteur, you know, it's an NDA protected. And I couldn't talk about it.
00;43;41;29 - 00;43;44;02
Pri
I thought we were frontier on the pod, though.
00;43;44;07 - 00;43;49;00
Aaron
Do you think they actually make them sign NDAs? If that's true?
00;43;49;02 - 00;43;49;20
Pri
Yeah.
00;43;49;23 - 00;43;53;09
Aaron
Like you get, like, a donkey sign. Like like.
00;43;53;12 - 00;44;01;21
Chris
The ketamine. Here's the NDA, sign the NDA, take the ketamine, go back into the cuddle puddle.
00;44;01;23 - 00;44;09;05
Pri
Literally. I bet it's kind of like that. Or they have, like someone on the side with NBA's being like, hey, to hang out, you kind of need to sign this.
00;44;09;09 - 00;44;13;06
Chris
Do you think that's the equivalent of the weed guy from back in the day.
00;44;13;08 - 00;44;15;22
Aaron
The lawyer handing out NDAs?
00;44;15;24 - 00;44;17;26
Pri
Yeah, like the the handler?
00;44;18;00 - 00;44;19;01
Chris
Yeah.
00;44;19;03 - 00;44;19;29
Pri
Kind of.
00;44;20;05 - 00;44;26;24
Aaron
I mean, it must be tough. I mean, there's just so many people that probably just look at you as like a mark in some way. So it sucks.
00;44;27;01 - 00;44;28;28
Pri
I would not wish that life on anyone.
00;44;29;00 - 00;44;35;23
Aaron
Wait, did you see this? Pray that. No. They manufactured the first like a non-human virus using AI. I saw.
00;44;35;23 - 00;44;37;22
Pri
That I did see this actually.
00;44;37;24 - 00;44;45;19
Aaron
That was interesting. Is it benign? Like, I just saw the headline and I didn't get a chance to click, click through and digest it. But like, hopefully it's benign.
00;44;45;21 - 00;44;52;26
Chris
And that's one of those categories like why are you fucking around there. Can you, can you go work on like cold fusion or something?
00;44;53;01 - 00;44;59;19
Pri
That was like what I was saying on the timeline. Everyone's like, oh great. Yeah. Glad they're focusing on things that are valuable.
00;44;59;20 - 00;45;09;09
Aaron
Like what I saw the one, the chart where they're showing like the number of security incidences by large models and they're like pandemics. I was like, oh man, it's dark.
00;45;09;10 - 00;45;19;18
Pri
I mean, it's kind of true, though, if this is any indication, I guess you kind of have to study the viruses to develop like tools to do counter viral measures.
00;45;19;19 - 00;45;27;12
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I think that that piece is fair, but Chris, maybe that's the big move of the AI goths. They just pandemic us.
00;45;27;19 - 00;45;30;03
Chris
I can make us. Can't wait.
00;45;30;06 - 00;45;30;12
Aaron
Woo!
00;45;30;12 - 00;45;34;15
Chris
Who? I mean, we seem to be in a lot of duma rabbit holes where like.
00;45;34;20 - 00;45;46;17
Aaron
There's no duma at all. Priya. No. Last week we talked about some of that spiritual tech. Did you see that? Talking about people leaving companies that somebody left open AI to to to start exploring some of the stuff. Did that hit you?
00;45;46;20 - 00;46;05;03
Pri
Yeah, yeah. Telepathy. I put that in my little post. But yeah, I feel like we're seeing more and more news of people kind of moving on to the other, what I call it the other side of the Longevity Horseshoe, or like the other side of the coin is like they're very similar things, but one feels a little bit more obviously.
00;46;05;03 - 00;46;27;19
Pri
And so the, the telepathy thing, there actually is science grounded in that. But like, I think a lot of people would consider that now. And so it's, it's curious to see someone from OpenAI move and explore that through that company. I think it's a conduit or something. Is the telepathy company name. But yeah, I thought that was kind of interesting.
00;46;27;20 - 00;46;31;03
Pri
Just like funny timing between that and like Midjourney acquiring CoStar.
00;46;31;11 - 00;46;46;29
Aaron
Yeah, I just think like, I mean, this these are bright people that could probably do a lot of different things. They really feel like they can make a run at that. That's like pretty wild. Like I'd be super curious, like why they think, like, now's the right time for that. What's the science behind it? Type type.
00;46;47;01 - 00;47;05;14
Pri
It's maybe the tech is just the tech is just getting better. Like the BCI stuff feels more primed to me. Like you're actually we're you know, meta is finding ways to, like, read brainwaves. Like, I just think it's getting I think people are just saying that, like, the timing is a little bit is ripe now than it maybe it has been in the past.
00;47;05;15 - 00;47;24;05
Pri
So it's like AI is helping accelerate all these different vectors, including like the ability to like, read minds, including telepathy. Yeah. I mean, like, why wouldn't you want to, like, go to the next thing? AI not saying AI is largely solved, but like, there's going to be so many branches as a thing that are going to be enabled because of AI.
00;47;24;06 - 00;47;27;00
Pri
So it's like, I'm sure they're just following what they're interested in.
00;47;27;06 - 00;47;37;20
Aaron
So like mush these trends together. You've got like AI swarms like working together. And they're going to be able to potentially read our minds. Hooray. Yeah.
00;47;37;23 - 00;47;50;15
Chris
So are we going to have to like, look up at a drone swarm in the sky, try to try to understand what political causes it's on patrol about, and then project out our alignment with the drone swarm so they don't attack us.
00;47;50;21 - 00;47;52;15
Aaron
Very matrix like, very matrix.
00;47;52;19 - 00;47;59;12
Chris
I'm going to have to look look up from the sky and go I support Ukraine. And then the drones are by the way.
00;47;59;15 - 00;48;00;23
Pri
I'm thinking that. Yeah.
00;48;00;24 - 00;48;06;09
Chris
Yeah, I promised my head just I need to flood my head with Zelensky as a patriot. Thoughts?
00;48;06;12 - 00;48;08;19
Aaron
Yeah, yeah. Beforehand. Completely.
00;48;08;21 - 00;48;22;08
Pri
So it's like, propagandize yourself. Speaking of, I can't believe we're on this pod. And we haven't talked to synthetic neuro computing at all after our interesting conversation yesterday.
00;48;22;10 - 00;48;24;11
Aaron
Oh, you mean brain? Brain computers?
00;48;24;15 - 00;48;25;23
Pri
Brain computers.
00;48;25;29 - 00;48;46;12
Aaron
Yeah, well, they're not exactly brains, but. Yeah, I mean, I think that's coming. It kind of goes back into the matrix point. Like, humans are super efficient with energy. It feels like the more I think about like, all the math advancements, it just makes it feel like, you know, somebody was saying this earlier this week to me that like, math is solved, which is a weird thought, but I guess that's increasingly true.
00;48;46;14 - 00;49;06;06
Aaron
I don't think that's fully true yet, and probably will take a long time to solve it. But, you know, if you look at what's adjacent to math, it's like physics and chemistry. And really biology is like the last great frontier. And so there's been a lot of advancements in universities on trying to get organic material to compute things, to be like computers.
00;49;06;06 - 00;49;09;02
Aaron
And they're making a lot of progress. So it's pretty cool.
00;49;09;04 - 00;49;43;20
Chris
Yeah, I know, it's definitely cool. And I wonder if, like the underlying theme here is language post language, right? In that like we think of language strictly as like communication. The humans can understand and share vocabularies. But when you're getting into like ideas like brain computing interfaces, telepathy, right? And the ability to read thoughts or read outputs from, you know, like neurological organoids or like your own, your own brain.
00;49;43;22 - 00;50;09;22
Chris
Right? Is it simply just a matter of understanding and reading like spikes, right, that are like the outputs of thoughts, you know, is it like we're going to expand the notion of what language is dramatically because AI allows us to view the world, that everything speaks a language. They were just foreign languages to us, and that AI itself is a translator.
00;50;09;22 - 00;50;17;24
Chris
And once we're able to get AI to understand the language of all these different things, we can then interact with them more effectively.
00;50;17;29 - 00;50;36;05
Aaron
I love that. I mean, I think there are huge limitations in language. I mean, as a lawyer, you run into that all the time, right? Your job in part is to like encapsulate like a transaction or to persuade people. There's huge limitations in that. So maybe we kind of break through those limitations.
00;50;36;07 - 00;50;45;21
Chris
If we if we actually had a lot of listeners, I'd be a little worried about like a statement like this because someone would come out, in fact, check us on it. But is mathematics just a language?
00;50;45;27 - 00;50;46;22
Pri
That's true.
00;50;46;27 - 00;50;53;12
Aaron
Yeah, I think I think a lot of people think that that's the case, Chris. It's just like a more formal language. Software code.
00;50;53;14 - 00;50;55;14
Pri
Same thing. Yeah.
00;50;55;15 - 00;51;08;13
Chris
And so, you know, does everything just have a language. And AI is just like applying AI as a rosette of stone. And then once you can speak these languages, you can do so much more based on these systems. And so.
00;51;08;15 - 00;51;08;21
Pri
That's.
00;51;08;21 - 00;51;33;10
Chris
A cool biology. That's the language of cells or it's the language of synapses. You know, in mathematics and physics it's like the language of the physical world. Definitely in physics. Right. Like the language of interactions, the language of, you know, chemical reactions, like, I don't know, maybe that's as we start seeing these more woo woo type of, you know, projects pop up.
00;51;33;10 - 00;51;40;17
Chris
They're not actually woo woo. They're an expansion of actually like our ability to communicate with other things.
00;51;40;19 - 00;51;45;09
Pri
That's true. That's a really good framing. Chris. You should write about that. I like that.
00;51;45;12 - 00;52;00;14
Chris
If I were back in my writing arc, maybe I would. But you know, the podcast rewards patient listeners, right? Like, if you can hang in there through the enclosure movement, you can get these little nuggets. It's a process. People we're processing live in real time.
00;52;00;17 - 00;52;08;07
Aaron
Why are you selling that? Talking about the see people in enclosures. Why are you still on the Odyssey kick what's been fascinating about that?
00;52;08;08 - 00;52;36;23
Pri
Oh, no, I just I think it's cool just the filming of it. Like, I think that what's interesting about Nolan and I've never like, like obviously seen his movies through the years. But I think what's interesting about him is like, he's able to combine max mass box office success with like, high quality direction, writing and film and like, I just like, feel like there's no one else that can do that that.
00;52;36;23 - 00;53;07;24
Pri
Well, like, usually it's like indie and like he he gets his movies kind of get the respect of like indie, you know, critics as well as like mass, you know, whatever mass appeal critics. And like he also gets like the awards system tends to, you know, fairly as well. But like I just feel like there's not many people like him that's able to to kind of balance like chewy, you know, sensibility with also like taste.
00;53;07;26 - 00;53;20;18
Pri
So I was watching a lot of interviews with him and, and the cast and even like that. I don't know if you guys have seen that the movie yet, but like that one scene with the pigs, like that wasn't even CGI. It was like done with. Yeah, animatronic.
00;53;20;19 - 00;53;21;28
Aaron
I read that too. That was cool.
00;53;22;00 - 00;53;38;05
Pri
Yeah. So I was just like, whoa. Like he just. And he also even, like with getting everyone in the Trojan Horse, like no one, including him, knew what that filming was going to look like. He just kind of stuffed everyone in there and like, rolled with it. Yeah. Like he so I just, I find I find him to be.
00;53;38;06 - 00;53;41;11
Pri
I find him to be like an interesting director.
00;53;41;13 - 00;53;57;12
Aaron
I think he's kind of separating from the pack for this, this generations group of directors. Right. Like we're past the like. Yeah. Speed Berg and Scorsese like era. Right. Like. Yeah. Disclosure day. That kind of like landed flat. Not because.
00;53;57;14 - 00;53;58;27
Pri
Landed really flat. Yeah, I'm.
00;53;58;27 - 00;53;59;03
Aaron
Sure it.
00;53;59;03 - 00;53;59;19
Pri
Was really.
00;53;59;19 - 00;54;03;15
Aaron
Done, but just people don't demand it as much anymore. Like they're kind of.
00;54;03;19 - 00;54;03;25
Pri
Just.
00;54;04;00 - 00;54;18;05
Chris
Not sure it was really well done. I think the, the criticism of it was like he was really kind of getting into his weird and getting a little goofy in this field burning sense of, you know, things he sat on and it was just a little to.
00;54;18;07 - 00;54;20;26
Pri
Esoteric for like, normal people.
00;54;21;00 - 00;54;40;00
Chris
Yeah. I mean, we also already got War of the worlds from him. He shouldn't have gone back to that. Well, yeah, I know we did Close Encounters and you know, etc. like it's a well, he deservedly owns. But you know, I felt like War of the worlds was kind of the a really good popcorn flick. Very well done.
00;54;40;03 - 00;54;44;06
Chris
You know, pieces like action and maybe you shouldn't have gone back there.
00;54;44;11 - 00;55;06;28
Aaron
I think that perspective. Right. You know, it's like that perspective of that generation was, you know, amazing. Like they, they they really leveled up movies. I feel like the boomers in part it just like they don't have more stories to tell, like all the stories that they had in their, you know, wheelhouse in their back pocket. They're they're kind of done.
00;55;06;29 - 00;55;09;17
Aaron
Right. So we need we need new storytellers.
00;55;09;23 - 00;55;25;14
Pri
Yeah. What's interesting about Nolan to which is like Matt Damon was interviewed and he was like, oh, like, yeah, Nolan called you for the part, you know, how did that conversation go? And he's like, I before he even told me what it was he was like in and, you know, the interviewer was like, well, how did you know you didn't have the script?
00;55;25;14 - 00;55;46;21
Pri
You didn't even know what it was about the role. And he was like, well, honestly, like he's realized through his life as an actor that it's really like a, a film is really about the director's medium. And so it almost doesn't matter what the role or story is. It's like the director is basically everything is kind of what he was noting.
00;55;46;26 - 00;56;03;28
Pri
And I was like, oh, that's like very interesting. I was like trying to apply that to like startups or something like that. But I just, I feel like I had a lot of respect for Nolan after like watching that as well. Like, yeah, I think I'm like a big Christopher Nolan fan, which I always liked his stuff, but I never really went down the rabbit hole.
00;56;04;04 - 00;56;12;05
Aaron
Yeah, there is like a little bit of a startup element to that, right? Like, what's the vision like? You know, like what's the execution cadence? Like, can you do that?
00;56;12;08 - 00;56;19;08
Chris
Well, it's also like we're giving you a nine figure budget and we're expecting a 5 to 10 x return on this. So yeah.
00;56;19;11 - 00;56;20;06
Aaron
Know it's.
00;56;20;06 - 00;56;22;29
Chris
Kind of like and only 1 in 5 actually get us there.
00;56;23;01 - 00;56;34;29
Pri
You think he wanted it? In an interview he said he wanted to do this movie forever. But then like felt like after Oppenheimer, he had the ability to finally, like, ask for the budget he wanted and, like, went for it.
00;56;35;01 - 00;56;54;21
Chris
I just wish it hadn't been so joyless. And it's funny, I have a friend who's who's a classicist, right? And I've gotten used to now. Like I will ask him things like, you know, the intersection of pop culture and classics or technology and classics, and then it's I always get this like super milk toast response. Like he just doesn't want to talk about it.
00;56;54;22 - 00;57;13;21
Chris
And so I was like, oh, all right. So you you saw the Odyssey, what do you think of it? And he's like, well, you know, I don't really have any beef with it from, you know, a professional perspective other than like he took all the sex out of it. He took all the really weird stuff out of it, you know, and obviously you have to drop stuff.
00;57;13;21 - 00;57;29;22
Chris
But at the end of the day, like, it was just kind of grim and joyless and like, I didn't really love any of the characters. It was a good movie, but, you know, it was just lacking a certain swagger. And I was like, classicists are just like us. I felt the same way about the movie myself. I mean, at the end of the day, right?
00;57;29;23 - 00;57;35;13
Chris
Like it was a little too, I don't know, like it was the Odyssey.
00;57;35;16 - 00;57;38;29
Aaron
On GLP ones and SSRIs. Chris, is that what I'm hearing?
00;57;38;29 - 00;57;52;11
Chris
It was it was very similar to team USA in the WBC, right? Like all the other teams like Venezuela and the doctor, they're having a blast. They got like little celebrations. There's chemistry, there's camaraderie. And this.
00;57;52;11 - 00;57;56;08
Aaron
Was the working man's version. Yeah. They just going through the motions.
00;57;56;10 - 00;58;10;22
Chris
Yeah. But like even like not even working man though like you know like the best of the best. Like having to do this prestige job in a way where, like, all the life and the, you know, the joy of, like, was sucked out of it.
00;58;10;25 - 00;58;28;14
Pri
That's that's harsh. I actually thought it was, like, really good. I think it's very hard to do an epic like that. And I thought like, yes, it missed some things and like, and like the one critique I've heard is like he people are like, well, he should have broken up into like trilogies, whatever. Like which I think he could have done.
00;58;28;16 - 00;58;34;25
Pri
Like in a way I most respect that. He just was like, no, I'm going to do like one, you know, comprehensive film. I didn't.
00;58;35;01 - 00;58;54;06
Chris
Feel it. Can you imagine like like your Christopher Nolan? Like how much fucking work that would have been to do three movies to, you know. Yeah. His standard and his level and like, such a. Yeah. Just a joyless and grim. I mean Lord of the rings which did three all three. Right. Like there's plenty of goofball shit in there.
00;58;54;07 - 00;59;11;14
Chris
Like, you know, there's like there's moments of, like, happiness. There's balance. I mean, at the end of the day, like, I'm not going to say Troy was a better movie than The Odyssey because they're they're not. It's not. Troy is like a really shitty movie. I enjoyed Troy a hell of a lot more than I enjoyed The Odyssey.
00;59;11;17 - 00;59;16;23
Chris
Like, I want a little stupid. I want some camp and my swords and sandals type of flicks.
00;59;16;24 - 00;59;18;00
Pri
That's fair.
00;59;18;02 - 00;59;20;12
Chris
Yeah. This was just like, grayscale.
00;59;20;14 - 00;59;23;03
Pri
Damn. That's harsh. I don't know, I thought it was good.
00;59;23;06 - 00;59;23;24
Aaron
I thought it was.
00;59;24;01 - 00;59;24;22
Chris
It was good.
00;59;24;23 - 00;59;47;00
Aaron
I think it's a fair critique that there wasn't a lot of. It was like, definitely like a slog. Like if there was like a dystopian air around it. But I think that that's also just a the feeling of the time that Nolan may have captured. But I think you're right that, you know, from what I understand of the story and there's there was other kind of like funky, weird, more centric pieces that they could have added.
00;59;47;00 - 00;59;58;14
Aaron
Maybe they didn't want to do that, maybe it would have gotten a weird grade, or they were worried it wouldn't play or people would would kind of focus on that instead of like the like how great of a story that is.
00;59;58;19 - 01;00;22;01
Chris
Well, I mean, that whole mythological arc is filled with like, hubris and like outsized character traits driving action. And you saw none of that. I mean, every single one of those, like, major players in the Trojan War had some sort of like a fatal flaw or had like, you know, some I'm bigger than the world, which is going to cause the gods to strike me down.
01;00;22;05 - 01;00;32;09
Chris
Right? There's a lot of like, like interesting personality. Like I would size personality traits in the source material and like, you don't see any of that in the Odyssey.
01;00;32;12 - 01;00;45;08
Pri
That's fair. I mean, I think part of it is probably because they had to like, in a way, make it more chewy for the masses. No. Like if they really went that far, do you think that it would be as popular? It's just a question. I actually don't know the answer.
01;00;45;09 - 01;00;57;16
Chris
All right, well, here, let's just get into like, Nolan's own filmography because he can do this, right? Like The Dark Knight with Heath ledger. Right? Or.
01;00;57;18 - 01;00;58;02
Pri
That was amazing.
01;00;58;04 - 01;01;18;27
Chris
The prestige. Right. Like, both of those are fucking gonzo. Like, have gonzo choices in there. Like, he was like, you know what? I'm going to have David Bowie. Bowie play Nikola Tesla. You fucking killed, right? Or like, I'm going to have Heath ledger set like a giant pile of money on fire and laugh his ass off. Yeah, like he can do all that.
01;01;18;27 - 01;01;24;03
Chris
And he's he's just like, no, I've done Oppenheimer now, and now I need to be even more dry in serious.
01;01;24;07 - 01;01;33;17
Pri
I don't know if that's true, but yeah, I hear you. Maybe, maybe as he's aged and like, gotten more quote serious, he like, can't pull those punches as much anymore.
01;01;33;19 - 01;01;38;17
Aaron
I think he wanted it to hold up to like he wanted it to be like a serious thing that people could look back on.
01;01;38;18 - 01;01;44;07
Chris
The definitive odyssey, because you got to compete with like nine other Odysseys. They're coming down the pike.
01;01;44;08 - 01;01;45;21
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's probably right. But I.
01;01;45;21 - 01;01;50;08
Pri
Wonder Robert Pattinson is awesome. I like really like him.
01;01;50;15 - 01;01;51;01
Chris
You're okay.
01;01;51;01 - 01;01;53;20
Aaron
Well you're his everyone needs pre. You happen for.
01;01;53;21 - 01;02;08;27
Chris
Everyone like Robert Pattinson. He I felt like he was playing Quentin Tarantino by the way. Like even with the haircut and the nose he had going and just like the the smart ass thing, like I really felt like he was like, oh, I'm just gonna be Quentin Tarantino in this movie.
01;02;09;01 - 01;02;10;07
Pri
That actually is a good call.
01;02;10;08 - 01;02;15;28
Aaron
I have a hot take. I didn't really think he was that good. I thought he was annoying character. Yeah.
01;02;16;01 - 01;02;17;29
Pri
He's meant to be annoying.
01;02;18;02 - 01;02;22;08
Chris
Well, yeah. You know, he's spectacular. And have you ever seen The Lighthouse?
01;02;22;10 - 01;02;23;02
Pri
Yes.
01;02;23;08 - 01;02;24;20
Aaron
Very good that.
01;02;24;21 - 01;02;33;05
Chris
Now that is, like, historical bonkers. That is like a just absolutely gonzo movie. Him and the Green Goblin there.
01;02;33;06 - 01;02;35;25
Pri
I'm so excited to see him in prime time.
01;02;35;28 - 01;02;36;27
Chris
What's that one?
01;02;36;28 - 01;02;37;07
Aaron
Yeah. What?
01;02;37;12 - 01;02;57;17
Pri
It's like it's like this, a 24 movie that's coming out like, I think end of September or something. But it's basically talking about it's like him playing Chris Hanson from The Catch A Predator, and it talks. It's like him playing basically Chris Hanson and like the genesis of that show.
01;02;57;20 - 01;02;59;14
Chris
I don't want to touch that one. Yeah.
01;02;59;14 - 01;02;59;21
Aaron
And the.
01;02;59;21 - 01;03;02;24
Pri
Things I feel like it's going to be really good.
01;03;02;25 - 01;03;07;29
Aaron
I look forward to hearing how good that is. Let me know. But maybe he should be. Intro of the show.
01;03;08;01 - 01;03;10;02
Chris
Oh yeah. We really come to the end of the road.
01;03;10;02 - 01;03;12;02
Pri
Here. We have, we have.
01;03;12;05 - 01;03;17;18
Chris
I can't get like Byzantine logistics wedged in as a final historical niche.
01;03;17;21 - 01;03;37;07
Pri
No, we need we need to save some. Save some for next week. Yeah. Fair enough. All right. Welcome to net society. Today you have me, Chris and Aaron talking all things crypto, art, culture and more. Just as a quick reminder, these thoughts and opinions are our own and not of our employer. And none of this is financial advice.