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The voice of the American Consortium for Equity in Education at ace-ed.org | Host Larry Jacobs facilitates rich discussions with innovative educators, thought leaders, authors and the leaders within the education industry to promote equity, access and opportunity for every student in every school.
I'm David Cicero, and this
is Education Talk Radio.
Math achievement has
been on my mind lately.
We spend a lot of time talking
about how to improve it: curriculum,
instruction, intervention, all
the things schools are working on.
And there's good reason for that.
Latest nation's report card still has math
achievement below where it was before the
pandemic in some pretty important ways.
But when we think about what actually
matters in learning mathematics,
I wonder if the conversation needs
to be a little bigger than that.
My guest today is Jaelan Ali,
author of Compassionate Math.
Her work offers a different way
of thinking about what contributes
to success in mathematics and
what schools might be overlooking.
So today, what I really wanna
understand is what compassionate math
actually means, and then explore what
it might teach us about students,
teachers, and the way school leaders
think about their math programs.
Jaelan, welcome to Education Talk Radio.
How are you?
I'm doing really well, David.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
Me too.
Me too.
Uh, and thank you for the book.
We're gonna dig into it, uh,
today, and it just visually is
just a beautiful book as well.
Uh, of course, the title
is Compassionate Math.
So when you use the phrase compassionate
math, what are you really asking
us to understand differently
about how people learn math?
So the words compassionate math trigger
a lot of people because it's a phrase
that you could think of being really
radical or a juxtaposition, something
that doesn't make sense in our minds.
But I use the phrase compassionate
math to agitate just that i- that idea.
I don't want people, um ⦠You
know, math isn't thought of as being
a space for compassion or empathy
or where one's humanity is welcome,
but it really should be because
math is a completely human endeavor.
And often I say that human beings are
mathematical beings to reinforce the
humanity that's innate in math and
that, uh, that all of us, all human
beings are capable of doing math.
Uh, in fact As weird and as brutal and
as cruel as math class could be, and it
really can be pretty bru- brutal, research
mathematicians use words like beautiful
and elegant as the highest compliment
they could pay to another mathematician.
So we don't, we don't see that
in a regular math classroom.
And, you know, unfortunately for too many
students, math class is a space where the
only thing that matters is your brain,
you know, which dehumanizes students
even more and contributes to math trauma.
And it's as if that you're sitting
in class like you're a jar in a brain
sitting on a shelf solving equations,
rather than being a whole being
with stories and dreams and goals.
And so the phrase compassionate
math brings all of that together.
It brings the humanity
back into mathematics.
What I'm getting from you is how we
see the learner and their potential
relationship or their, their natural
relationship with mathematics,
because you describe learning math
as both intellectual and emotional.
I think you're getting to that here.
Mm-hmm.
So how does that emotional experience
affect whether students actually learn
and persist in, in learning math?
I think it's, yeah, I think
it's critically important.
So I'm a former math professor
and, uh, you know, rigorously
trained in mathematics.
I taught math, and one thing I
realized was my students, if they
walked in with emotional blocks,
that was the end of the game.
That was it.
So they, um If a student's cognitive
load is overwhelmed with anxiety
and, "I can't do this," and the
stories they've been told and, "Oh
my gosh, I can't, uh, I- what's gonna
happen to me if I fail this exam?"
Et cetera, et cetera, a brick wall
starts building up, and then students
start avoiding math whenever they can.
So choosing a major in college could have
critical impact on the rest of your life.
Uh, deciding not to take a third
year or a fourth year of math in
high school has a profound impact
on your career and your ability to
even get into college sometimes.
So the emotional blocks that students
experience really, really ends up being
a critical component in their ability to
tap into their intellectual potential.
So I don't think you're
omitting what I'm about to say.
Okay.
But, but you're also adding
to, to it, I think, instead.
So I mean, we're not really talking
about, you know, cognitive, um, the
cognitive weight of what's going on
at home, or relationships at school,
or relationships with teachers, and
students connecting with teachers.
We- we've talked about that, you know,
quite a bit on this show, and- Mm-hmm
⦠uh, we, we will continue to, right?
Because- Mm-hmm ⦠um, uh, you
know, having these relationships and
feeling safe at school and a part
of a community are all important to-
All, totally, totally ⦠you know,
e- e- every, every classroom, right?
But what you're, I think, I think
what you're sort of saying is, no,
there's an emotional weight to just
walking in that math classroom.
Is that what you'reâ¦
Like, d- the math itself- Oh,
God, yes ⦠is already daunting.
Is that what you're
really getting at here?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's a yes and conversation.
Um, so in math class, I have worked
with students in universities where
they walk in, and if they're, they're
perfectly comfortable doing the work,
and the second you give them a problem
with fractions, they freeze Because
I never really understood fractions,
I never got fractions, fractions
are hard, I can't do fractions.
And then that brick wall
starts to go up again.
Uh, students raising their hands
and asking, "What is this good for?
Why do I need to know this?"
Is a values assessment.
They need to know that the
work that they're doing is
aligning with their values.
Students feeling that they don't
belong in that class because they are,
quote-unquote, "not a math person."
These are all socio-emotional factors.
They're actually areas of research
in, uh, in math education.
Some of these areas I've
actively, uh, published in.
And these areas are distinct.
They're not com- they're distinct from
thinking about the regular emotional
life of the students or the school
or the environment, but they're,
it's not completely disjointed.
Yeah.
I was one of those students, honestly.
Oh, yeah?
I told you b- sh- I, yeah, I told you
before, um, we, we started, um, recording
that I, I ended up doing a bachelor's
in math and a- Yeah ⦠master's degree
in math teaching, but- Uh-huh ⦠I
wasn't the best student, um, in
middle school and high school, and
math definitely was not on my list
of things that I enjoyed at all.
Right.
And then, in, in fact, and this is
actually leading to my next question-
Okay ⦠um, just seeing this
connection here, is that when I started
college, I actually ⦠You know, you
take a, what was that test called?
Um, I took, like, a placement
test to see if I was ready for
college algebra, basically.
Oh, okay.
Mm-hmm.
I forget what the, I forget what
the test was called at the time.
The ACCUPLACER- And, um- ⦠maybe?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I, I think that, I think that was it.
And I tested three remedial
levels down, and I thought-
Whoa ⦠"Oh, my gosh," you know?
I, I wanted to go to coll- I wanted to go
to college, but now I have to take three
courses before I can take college algebra.
And so what I did was, and I still
have the book, I, I got an old book
from a used books, uh, used bookstore.
Mm-hmm.
It's, uh, sitting on the
shelf right behind me.
Mm-hmm.
And I sat on my couch working through
that entire book alone, solving
every problem, teaching myself math.
And in that time- Wow ⦠in that
time, I fell in love with it.
Mm.
Right?
And what I realized was that the
reason why I think I fell in love
with math, because my, I thought
my major was gonna be English.
Mm-hmm.
And what ma- what I found out
was I really like certainty.
I'm a good wr- I'm a good
r- I'm a good writer.
I'm a good writer, but I never ⦠At
that time, I had a problem with,
like, constructive criticism of
my stories or something, right?
Mm.
But I realized, hey, if I can just get
the math problem right, it's right, right?
I just need to know the answer.
So I found something in myself,
in my, by my, my, how I operate,
and I was like, you know what?
This math is interesting.
It's pretty.
It's challenging.
I know I can get the answer, and
it kind of satisfies this for me.
I can have that answer,
and I can pursue this.
And so I developed an emotional ex-
um, relationship with the subject.
And so, you know, I wanna ask
you about what else students are
learning in a math classroom.
And for me, I was learning
about, you know, me.
I was learning about my relationship
with it and how it could serve me and
also, you know, experiencing really
interesting journeys within it.
So we're not only learning
about math in a math classroom.
We're also ⦠You know, learners are
also learning about themselves as well.
So what kind of experience can
help shape students' identities in
these math classrooms to help them
discover that relationship or, or
develop that emotional connection?
I'm listening to your story, and
I'm gonna kind of repeat back
some of the things that I heard.
Okay.
Um, okay.
Uh, and these are, I think, are
the experiences that, that can
shape what a student sees and
thinks about, about learning math.
Learning math is a skill.
It is not an innate gift sent to us
from on high, either from the gods
or from genetics or whatever, right?
Learning math is a skill, a skill that
is developed w- by, with practice, with
creativity, a skill that builds like any
other skill, through resilience, through
working through s- setbacks, right?
And that's, that's what
you, that's what you did.
Uh, learning math is hard, but it's
doable And David, just the work that you
did in sitting down and working through
that textbook does all of that, right?
That, those are the, that, that resilience
and that ability to work through these
problems to get yourself, you know,
three levels down, three levels into- and
let's not even go into the Accuplacer.
I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna completely
put that on the table that's in the
other room and lock the door, okay?
Okay, okay.
But- Yeah ⦠what do w- you know,
you work through all the math, and
math is supposed to make sense.
You know, too many students, when I
talk to, not, I'm not, I'm not even
talking about students, when I talk
to adults, when I talk to parents
or teachers or the random person
who says, "Oh, what do you do?"
And I say my, "I help people work
through their math trauma," they, they,
a lot of the stories really comes down
to, "Math never made sense to me."
But, but math does make sense.
I mean, I think of math as an applied
philosophy, as a way of thinking,
as a way of rigorous thinking in the
limited capacities that we of hum-
as humans have, and math does that.
Um, in some respects, I think of math as
being almost like a form of self-help,
because you can outline your assumptions.
It, so in math, what do we do?
We outline mathematical assumptions,
and then we build our ideas based on
those assumptions, and then we test
the world, we test our problems, and
we solve our problems in our math world
using the assumptions and the ideas
that come out of those assumptions.
Take that as a parallel to how
one, a person lives their life.
We have innate assumptions and
values about the way the world
is and the way people are.
We have problems that we need to
solve, and we can work through those
problems, and when we get to a solution
that's wrong, our life falls apart.
And then we have to go back and look at
our assumptions and question our assum-
The same thing happens in math class.
When you get an answer that's wrong,
then you go back and you look,
is there, did I make a mistake?
Did I not follow the values and ideas
that we've set up in the math class?
Or did I, d- do my fundamental
assumptions need to be questioned?
And that's how evolution in, in
mathematics happens, and that's how
personal growth happens as well.
So you can learn a lot just by
focusing on, and you, uh, you know-
I, I don't wanna say you could learn
a lot by doing math and, you know,
I'm not proselytizing to learn math.
I'm, I'm trying to explain that
math is useful for all of us in
our everyday lives, and actually
satisfies an innate human need.
Because we as humans are rational beings.
We're, we're, we are both creative and
rational, and the mathematical part of us
is so satisfied, or the rational part of
us is so satisfied by doing mathematics.
So you're, you're su- you are absolutely
meeting a critical innate need for
yourself when you're doing math.
But what I, what I'm hearing here is,
'cause you said something that I went, I
immediately reflected on my own experience
and even- Yeah ⦠went and uncovered more
in my own story here, and I, I actually-
Yeah ⦠do think that, so naturally I am
a divergent thinker, and I have a lot of
great thoughts, but there's a lot of them.
And I have to, or there's a lot of
thoughts that might be great, right?
Right.
And I, I wanna track 'em all down.
And one thing I do think when I was,
like, forcing myself to, "I'm gonna
learn this, I'm gonna read every word,
and I'm going to do every problem-
Mm-hmm ⦠and I'm going to r- really
uncover this," it did make sense.
It actually made absolute perfect sense,
and I think that was the hardest part.
Yep.
Uh, you know, uh, um, i- ironically, it,
it literally does make perfect sense,
but my mind, you know, had a problem with
slowing down and making perfect sense,
going through thro- thought processes
that were- Yes ⦠actually connected- Yes
and moving forward and
building on the last one.
Yes.
I had a problem with accomplishing
that even though I was able to,
my brain, we're rational beings,
we're, my brain was able to do it.
And so what I'm wondering right now, and
I'd love to hear your thoughts, is, you
know, for, for students that struggle
with math, I mean, is it, it's starting
to sound like part of the problem is, you
know, it's not just learning math, but
they're learning a new way of thinking.
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
Like I said, math, I think of
math as an applied philosophy.
Philosophy is a way of thinking.
Uh, so I, um, you're thinking, you're
thinking in a very systematic, rigorous, I
don't wanna say linear way in that there's
only one direction and one way to go.
Math is ab- absolutely not as
linear as people think it is.
Uh, but it's, um, but you're
thinking systematically and
rationally and logically.
Uh, now your outcomes may, if, you knowâ¦
I, I'm listening to s- I'm, I'm thinking
about somebody who's listening to
this and saying, "Well, that's where
we are, where we are in this world.
That's, you know, um, where we have
environmental degradation and, you know,
our imminent destruction due to AI or
whatever nonsense is being spouted."
Uh, but then we go, again,
like I said, you go back to our
fundamentals, our assumptions.
How did we get to where we are?
And then again, go back to that
linear, clear, rational thinking.
And that doesn't mean that there's
no room for the emotion and the heart
and the, the, those intangible pieces.
W- They're still there,
and they still shape us.
But we can stillâ¦
But there are times when one needs
to be grounded in the rationality,
and that's what math does.
It helps you do that in one
of the cleanest ways that
we as humans know how to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, in, in, in some sense it could
be, you know, therapeutic, right?
Drown out the noise and really sit there
and, um, experience this process, which
might be difficult to get started on
and might be difficult to work through.
But it, um, you know, in any way it helped
me slow down, converge my thinking, right?
Become, you know, e- enjoy
this system-like nature of,
um, of the thinking process.
Now, we've been talking a little
bit, or we've been talking mostly
about student experience here.
Mm-hmm.
And we'll, we'll still talk about
the student experience- Sure
but I wanna, I wanna think about
now, 'cause your book goes into
this, how adults fit into that.
So you describe- Mm ⦠something
called the cycle of benign neglect.
Yes.
What, what is that?
So the cycle of benign neglect is,
uh, it's a phrase that I coined, and
it essentially explains the history
of math curricula since World War
II in the US, and it says that it
actually, uh, brings to light how math
curricula has shifted almost like a
pendulum swinging between conceptual
mathematics and procedural mathematics
through the different generations.
And generally, these generational
changes have occurred about every decade
or so, which results in a parent, you
know, somebody learning math under
a system or a conceptualization of
math, and then they grow up and they
become a parent or a teacher to a child
who's learning under a new system.
So for me, as a Gen X-er growing up
under a, uh, a back-to-basics procedural
curriculum, I could have a child
learning Common Core math, or I could
be a teacher of a, uh, teaching Common
Core math, and the child needs to learn
how to, for example, add in groups.
But I look at the kid and I say,
"Why don't you just carry the one?"
And the child says, "I don't
know what carry the one means."
Yeah.
"We're supposed to add in groups."
And I go, "I don't know what that means."
And the, and so the, the emotional burdens
that I carry as, that I carried as a math
learner, I now instill within my child.
I, um, we talk about
math not making sense.
I say, just, you know, "You know what?
Just sh- you have to finish your homework.
It's bedtime.
Just carry the one."
The kid doesn't know what's going on.
The teachers have a hard time.
And so it perpetuates, uh,
the challenges that occurred.
So we have a lot of, so we have teachers
who may not have the in-depth content
knowledge that they need, not for their
own, it's not their own fault that
they don't, that they may not have this
deep-seated conceptual understanding
of some of the work that they're doing.
It's because that they learned or, or
grew up under a completely different
system of thinking about math, and no
one ever bridged that gap for them.
So one of the things that I do in my book,
in the math section, is that through the
different op- mathematical operations,
I actually outline the similarities
between different ways of doing problems,
and I look, and I show how they're all
universally- similar so that a teacher
can actually make the connection between
what they learned and how they have to
teach, or a parent can do the same thing.
Mm-hmm.
That's really, really helpful.
I mean, you're, you're, you're
speaking my language here.
I mean, I see this- Mm-hmm ⦠every day
as my son comes home and, you know- Yep
⦠I help him with his, with his math.
Um, I, I'm more on the procedural
side of things- Yeah ⦠right?
Um, there is a gap to bridge there.
Absolutely.
Now, now you, you mentioned
think- thinking about what
teachers bring into the classroom.
Mm-hmm.
Is there, is there more baggage that's
sort of being carried in the classroom?
I, I don't wanna call it baggage.
I don't have a, the right word for
it now, but they're, they might
be coming into the classroom.
From the parent perspective, yes,
I've, I've got the way I learned
math and it's conflicting with the
way, you know, my, my child might
be learning math in the classroom.
You might have teachers, you
know, the same way, struggling to-
Yeah ⦠reconcile how I need to
teach math or how I'm expected to
teach math versus how I, I learned it.
Are there, is there any other mathematical
confidence or understanding that teachers
may bring into the math classroom, traumas
they may bring that they, that, that end
up sort of being communicated to students?
Does it, does it go to the
emotional side as well?
Yeah, absolutely.
So, uh, the same types of issues
of, you know, certain people can't
do math and, uh, you know, "Don't
worry, don't worry your pretty little
head about this as you grow up," and
then you carry that in as an adult.
So tho- so we all, like, uh, a
bunch of us have math trauma.
We all carry math trauma.
Teachers are not immune to that.
But there's, there's another layer to the
experiences that teachers have in that
the, there's an extra burden for them
because they're carrying the emotional
labor of the future, of our future
when they're teaching in the classroom.
And so the weight of that responsibility
adds to the pressures and the
traumas, especially if they're
not confident or they feel that
they're a little uncomfortable with
the content, et cetera, et cetera.
And then we add to it the shame of,
I mean, David, are you ever gonna
walk up to your boss and say to them,
"You know, I know you want me to do
this fundamentally important task,
but I have no idea how to do it"?
Probably, probably not in that
way Probably not, right I'll
just say, I'll just say no.
No.
Could you imagine a teacher going
to their principal and saying,
"I don't understand this math"?
Mm-hmm.
Now- Yeah ⦠think about that shame,
think about that pain that that teacher
carries, and then when they ask for
professional develop- and let's not even
get started on professional development,
um, the teachers, they're not, they're
getting what the institution, what
the principal or their superintendent
kind of supports them in bringing.
And oftentimes it's very
rarely math content.
It's not actually sit down and
let's do math in an interesting
way and help you through it.
Wait a second.
So are you- Mm-hmm.
I'm trying to understand this- Yeah
⦠how a teacher arrives at this place.
Okay.
Okay.
So are we talking about, "I don't
understand this math," like I literally
don't understand how to do the
mathematics, or I don't understand
how to teach it the way the curriculum
we've adopted is asking me to teach it?
What are we really talking about here?
It could be both.
It could be one or both.
I have worked with teachers
where they will ask me, you
know, oftentimes when I work with
teachers, I, I tell administrators
I don't want them in the room.
And, um, and we work privately and I say,
"Ask me whatever math questions you want."
And I get questions like, "Why do I
multiply two negatives to get a positive?
I've never understood that."
Why is approo- yeah.
Why is a proof done the way that it is?
Now, I'm not sa- and I'm, this is not,
again, this is not ranking on teachers.
This is not saying that
teachers, you know, and, and
holding their feet to the fire.
We are all stuck in this system, and the
help that we supposedly try to give them
is not, has not always been helpful.
Where- What's so interesting-
Mm-hmm Oh, go ahead.
I'm- No ⦠I apologize.
No, no, no, please.
Well, I just, a, a week ago, two weeks
ago, I interviewed, um, Jal Mehta and
Max, uh, Yarkovsky on their book, A
Chance to Solve Their Own Problems.
Mm.
And it was aboutâ¦
Right, so a big takeaway
was trust at school, right?
That- Oh my God ⦠um, educators
need to be in a trusting environment
to, i- in that context it was,
you know, to, to experiment.
We're the closest ones to the problem.
L- let us, let us contribute in a
meaningful way- Absolutely ⦠in
solving that problem, and have the
safety to say, "Hey, we tried this.
It didn't work."
Right?
It didn't work.
Let's try something else.
Um, and, and have that, that
relationship among colleagues to, to,
to, to, to drive forward together, um,
without judgment, and as a team, and
growth mindset, all that good stuff.
And I ju- that's what I thought of when
you said, hey- Mm-hmm ⦠you know, we
have administrators listening right now
that might be thinking, "My goodness,
are some of our math challenges, our
math achievement challenges, due to
the fact that some of our teachers
don't even understand the math?"
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, the teachers are asking
for, um, for help, but where
are they gonna go for help?
Teachers are not trusted as professionals,
as craftsmen, as, as, you know,
skilled practitioners of their craft.
They are not trusted.
Our society does not trust teachers.
And we don't trust that the, that
they know what's best in how to teach.
And so we're gonna give them all
of these punitive type tools.
I mean, do you ever, like, if, if any
administrator's ever curious about what
teachers are thinking, go on Reddit
and look at what teachers are writing
when they can be anonymous and actually
share what their experiences are.
It is unbelievable.
So imagine a teacher saying, "I need,
I need help or support in, in math."
I m- last night I did, I did a, a
professional development session where
I actually went through some math and
math ideas and fundamental pieces.
I was, you know, and the feedback
that I received was really, really
powerful because they said, "Thank
you for actually being real and
talking about a real experience.
Talking, and talking to us and helping
us from, you know, sol- solve real
problems that we needed to solve."
Uh, and Administrators often have these
goals and objectives that they wanna hit,
and they feel that this is the best way
to move things forward without really
thinking about what the teachers might
actually need or how to support them.
And so, and on top of that, there
are always all of these, you know,
obligations or what's, what the latest
celebrity trend in, in education is,
and we're gonna go with that, and
we're all gonna think about that.
But there's no thinking about what,
how that's actually going to impact
their own classroom and their own work.
This is, this is so very interesting.
I mean, it just, it just is.
I, I, I- Yeah.
Thank you ⦠when I was teaching, I
also, you know, had similar thoughts
ran through my mind because we, we do
have teachers, you know, t- teachers
can enter the, into the profession
in, in, in quite a few routes, right?
Right.
And so some, sometimes you can become a
math teacher with a teaching certificate
but maybe only have, I don't know, 24
credits in mathematics, or you might
be able to enter as highly qualified,
and a person entering might have 60
credits in mathematics, including
graduate level credits, right?
And so- Right ⦠you could start
to think about, well, this person
understands math super deeply, right?
And this person understands maybe,
you know, enough math, quote, unquote,
and with the teaching certificate.
And so there seems to be, you
know, some discrepancy in how we
understand what is the knowledge base
required to enter into the classroom.
And that, I mean, that,
that can be part of it.
Part of this discussion sounds
like it's revolving around trust.
And you also mentioned that
we don't trust teachers as
professionals, um, in many ways.
No.
Um, and I, I, I tend to agree with that.
I'm not sure if you're familiar
with, like, Japanese lesson study.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
Um- Absolutely ⦠but I mean, that's,
it, that's a whole different, we don't
even need to talk about what that is or
the process, but it's a whole different-
Mm-hmm ⦠just perspective on what
a teacher is- Yeah ⦠in a culture
and how they should contribute to the
education happening in a school district.
Right.
Um, a, a lot of, a lot of things to, to
consider, and I don't mean to make the
problem, I mean, it is big and complex,
but I, I, I wanna ask you, we've uncovered
so much during this conversation,
but if I'm, if I'm a district leader-
Mm-hmm ⦠and we're choosing,
rethinking our math program, thinking
about how to get our learners the, the
education they need and, and raise math
scores Beyond strong content, right?
Like, I'm a district leader, I'm saying,
"Hey, we've got a great curriculum picked.
Where can I direct my attention and
resources now, um, or my investigation
now to help ensure my learners
become successful in mathematics?"
So first, you have to ensure that the
socio-emotional needs of your students
and your teachers are met, because
if that isn't taken into account,
you're gonna lose the whole game.
Um, if students don't think
that they could do math, then a
rigorous program isn't gonna get
you the outcomes that you need.
And in fact, you could actually
add to the problem and make,
make it worse for the students.
Uh, and y- you also need teachers who are
comfortable and confident with the content
so that they could actually see the forest
from the trees and feel that they can
immerse themselves into a rigor- You know,
a good rigorous curriculum is really rich
and nuanced, and so you have to feel, a
teacher has to be really comfortable to
delve into that work and see the content.
Um, and so you have to be able to
set expectations, but really meet,
really give the opportunity, the
play, and a joyful space to test
ideas, and the ability to work.
You have to give that to the
teachers and the students.
And, you know, if you are sitting there
wondering, like, how do you investigate
what is working and what the experience
is, you know, go and, in all honesty, I
wouldn't suggest that an administrator
or principal go and walk, because the
power dynamics when you walk into a
classroom completely shift everything.
But you need to understand what's
genuinely happening in your classes, and
you need to be able to ask questions.
You need somebody to be able to ask
questions of the teachers and the
students in a way that is curious.
So, and, and I've, and I came to
this conclusion when I started
doing professional development.
I was asked to do professional
development, but I don't know, I w-
I taught at the university level.
I didn't know how to
do what, quote-unquote,
professional development meant.
So, but I'm a researcher.
I went in as a researcher.
I went in curious and asking questions.
So when I went into a classroom and
everything was dull and boring, and
take out your pencils, and now write
the objective, and now do this,
and now, and I was, I was dying.
I didn't- shame the teacher in
saying, "You should be doing,
and you should, and you should."
I said, "W- I'm curious why m-
what made you work this out?"
And it turned out that the t- that
the students in the class were so
traumatized, it was early after COVID,
the town was so traumatized by COVID
that the students didn't have the
cognitive ability to remember the norms.
We're talking high school students.
They couldn't remember day to
day that they needed to sit
down and write the objective.
They just didn't have that mental
and emotional space to do it.
They were so burnt out.
And it would be very easy for a principal
to walk in and with the checkbox of
saying, "This is what you're supposed
to be doing, and this is what you're
not doing, and the students are not
working in groups, or the students
are whatever," without being curious
as to ask the teacher why it is that
they're doing what they're doing.
Because most teachers have their
students' best interests at heart, and
we just have to trust them and work with
them and find out and investigate it.
So when I do professional development,
I don't like walking in where the
district leader asks me to focus
on this, that, or the other thing.
Because almost always, the teachers in the
room don't need it and don't wanna hear
it, and that is not their critical need.
It's often something else.
Dr.
Ali, thank you so much
for joining me today.
The book is Compassionate Math.
Fantastic discussion.
Yes.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us on Education Talk
Radio, a part of the B Podcast Network.
If there's a topic you'd like us to
tackle or have a guest idea, send me
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